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Post by: Solosam47
So with all the hype of the new codex marines release, and all the awesome new features they have ( especially doctrines) where do our boys in green stand? Are we losing whatever edge we had? Grav weapons seem to put a giant boot in our termies rear and the white scars have stolen the fuel from our ravenwing, the dakka banner only goes so far when compared to bolter drill and tac doctrine. We have really been pushed back to an ally army only for our pretty little pfg and azreal giving invulns. It's a shame since we are the first legion and have a background that really can be opened up and explored better. Rumors have it chaos will be getting supplements to bring them up to speed again an give them a more variety nature close to codex. So what now? What role will we serve? Has our semi competitive shine become stolen so soon and we will fall into the shadows again like last codex? I almost want to write to GW and start a petition to get at least a supplement to give us a little more back. I want to hear Dallas thoughts now tho on the competitive and tactical standing of the DA
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Post by: namiel
What made this codex stand out was the ravenwing and how awesome they were. Granted we still have the black knights but in the competitive scene the da are no longer viable. There are 100 reasons to take c:sm over da now. Even space wolves and ba still have something, though ba are less competitive. I was really hoping that the ravenwing would have kept the top spot on the bike charts but that went out the window. It's a shame that what made da special they took away from us by doing it better in c:sm. Really dark angels are no longer viable BUT they are still the most bad ass legion.
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Post by: NuggzTheNinja
There are many ways that Dark Angels could have not sucked. All Ravenwing, all Deathwing, and hybrid builds should all have been viable.
The Dakka banner should apply to Storm Bolters to make it usable with Deathwing. Belial should have been 150 points (up 20 from before), not 190. DWT should NEVER cost more than Grey Knight Terminators (somebody was smoking crack with this one). Basically, GW dropped the ball hard on builds that could have actually worked fairly well. My own conspiracy theory on this is that they didn't want people building strong armies out of the contents of the Dark Vengeance set (because then why would people buy the more expensive models?), so they purposely made Deathwing and Ravenwing builds suck ass. 
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Post by: VardenV2
Unfortunately, I see a lot of DA stuff being relegated to the "allies" corner. Allying in something like a DA librarian will be very popular as a way to get divination. Ally in some black knights with those white scars or some Deathwing with a deep strike list with pods.
Or Azrael to give that uber Black Templar squad a 4++ invulnerable save as they run across the table.
I think a lot of people are going to be running their DA as C:SM simply for the new toys, and the fact that there are very limited benfits to the DA exclusives. But to be honest, with allies now, DA might as well just be considered in the new book. It's either DA main with allied SM or SM with allied DA. Pretty much going to be the same army regardless.
Sigh... I will still use my DA because I like them and think they are actually good in their own way. But I am definitely going to consider running some BT or IF allies with them to make up for the glaring weaknesses.
We still have better terminators in my opinion, but with the new SM I wouldn't really be taking lots of termies anyway hehe.
- VardenV2
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Post by: herpguy
I remember when the DA codex came out I was so happy, thinking that GW was finally going to balance the codexes. As a CSM player it took away some of the sting of my newest codex. Then Tau came out, and I realized that things hadn't changed.
The SM codex was the final nail in the coffin.
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Post by: Maelstrom808
 VardenV2 wrote:
We still have better terminators in my opinion, but with the new SM I wouldn't really be taking lots of termies anyway hehe.
Except for that whole "Let's force DA terminator sgts to take terrible gear selections so they are ablative wound fodder most of the time" thing.
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Post by: Very Superstitious
I personally have a blast playing my DA still. White Scars are the better bike army, which I am fine with, it's in their fluff that they are the ultimate bikers.
Really the only thing I am jealous of from the new SM dex is them actually having good fliers and AA, and taking a company master of chapter master on a bike unlocking bikes as troops. I dont want to have to use a special character every game.
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Post by: Solosam47
I really hope someone at GW is reading this, they need to help out the 1st legion! I am almost about to get rid of all my DA, the only reason I still play with the thought of them is in apoc with the redemption formation. Poor cypher, favorite DA and now it sucks to build lists for him.
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Post by: VardenV2
 Maelstrom808 wrote: VardenV2 wrote:
We still have better terminators in my opinion, but with the new SM I wouldn't really be taking lots of termies anyway hehe.
Except for that whole "Let's force DA terminator sgts to take terrible gear selections so they are ablative wound fodder most of the time" thing.
Yeah I hate that. My friends let me ignore it because I had them all equipped with TH/ SS before they FAQ'd it int illegality. I like how the sergeant, the supposed best guy in the squad, is the guy who is unwilling to use a TH/ SS in a squad dedicated to close combat... and he has the worst weapon combo to boot! It makes no sense -___-
W/e I think the best thing about DA right now vs SM is their synergy of bikes, termies, and marines. Regular SM just can't do it the same way... even if it isn't th optimal strategy, it makes them unique that way... I also wish our freakin' Chapter Master was Eternal Warrior... but he's good support regardless.
- VardenV2
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Post by: schadenfreude
Don't like your codex do what chaos space marines do: Use another codex for your army.
Codex DA does make one of the best allied detachments. Prescience and a power field generator really helps out IG.
Ravenwing with a salvo inside a land raider lists are a force to be reckoned with, but melt if confronted with hell turkeys. I think there is hope for them when played in a forge world meta. Sabers and Hyperios tend to drive off the 2 and 3 hell turkey lists.
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Post by: namiel
NuggzTheNinja wrote:There are many ways that Dark Angels could have not sucked. All Ravenwing, all Deathwing, and hybrid builds should all have been viable.
The Dakka banner should apply to Storm Bolters to make it usable with Deathwing.
The dakka banner works with bolters, twin linked bolters, combi bolters, storm bolters, and hurricane bolters.
Very Superstitious wrote: White Scars are the better bike army, which I am fine with, it's in their fluff that they are the ultimate bikers.
The white scars are a speed based army not a bike army. Yes bikes are a big part of their tactics but they are the speed freaks of space marines not the ultimate bikers. The ravenwing are based off of the ravenwing steeds that the knights of the order used before the coming of the emperor. The space marine bike replaced the horses. Ravenwing is the Calvary. They are the most bad ass biker gang in the galaxy.
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Post by: TheAdversary
 namiel wrote:NuggzTheNinja wrote:There are many ways that Dark Angels could have not sucked. All Ravenwing, all Deathwing, and hybrid builds should all have been viable.
The Dakka banner should apply to Storm Bolters to make it usable with Deathwing.
The dakka banner works with bolters, twin linked bolters, combi bolters, storm bolters, and hurricane bolters.
DA FAQ states
Q: The Standard of Devastation states that ‘all friendly Codex: Dark Angels units within 6” of the standard treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons’. Which boltguns does this apply to? (p66)
A: This applies to the standard boltgun (24” range, S4, AP5, Rapid Fire), twin-linked boltguns on bikes, the bolter component of combi-weapons, and hurricane bolters.
So unfortunately no storm bolters.
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Post by: phoenix darkus
While a full DW army is not competitive I still think that DWA is the best Termie delivery there is, AND you get TL guns upon arrival.
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Post by: Solosam47
See that's why I love DA is for the DWA, I just wish GW would have thought more long term on it as a viable and competitive army build
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Post by: wuestenfux
 phoenix darkus wrote:While a full DW army is not competitive I still think that DWA is the best Termie delivery there is, AND you get TL guns upon arrival.
Well, DWA is hard to pull off since the Termies shouldn't be unsupported. It will eventually split your army in two forces. Good news for the enemy.
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Post by: Likan Wolfsheim
Pure Deathwing still wins the day for me pretty much every time I drop those bad boys on the table. As the proud owner of more DA termies than I should have ever bought and also GK termies I can say that the Deathwing blokes are vastly superior to their GK counterparts.
Ravenwing is pretty 'meh' now that C:SM gave the world cheap White Scars bikers and 'Greenwing' seem to constitute a 'meh' mimicry of normal C:SM builds with not-too-special Chapter Tactics (think of 'Grim Resolve' and 'Inner Circle' as being our Chapter Tactics). Our flyers are also really, really bad and we don't have a cheap, dedicated AA unit. I still think Deathwing shines when played right, though.
Ultimately I think the only builds we have that are both good -and- feel unique to DA are Deathwing or an Azrael-led Deathwing/Ravenwing teamup (and these can both be challenging to play). There are certainly other armies one can play, but it'll be a very uphill battle with 'em.
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Post by: jamin484
The dakka banner makes RW pretty awesome. Black knights are very good. My models are painted white but I'm still gonna use the DA codex and ally in some grav guns and a captain in artificer armour to tank for my RW command squad because for pure bikes, RW are still top dogs IMO.
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
Utter utter utter bollocks. Ravenwing is still the top tier pure bike build. White scars simply cannot compete with Dakka banner/ Black Knights spam lists.
Pure Ravenwing is still a strong build that rolls 90% of lists. Reliance on cover saves means it will lose to Taudar, but who doesn't?
Please don't quote 'HELLDRAKES' at me because when was the last time a helldrake list placed top 10,or even top 50?
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:Utter utter utter bollocks. Ravenwing is still the top tier pure bike build. White scars simply cannot compete with Dakka banner/ Black Knights spam lists.
Pure Ravenwing is still a strong build that rolls 90% of lists. Reliance on cover saves means it will lose to Taudar, but who doesn't?
Please don't quote 'HELLDRAKES' at me because when was the last time a helldrake list placed top 10,or even top 50?
Well there was a bunch of Necron lists with allied Heldrakes in several tournaments..
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Post by: smee
Just as icing on the cake, the FAQ in C:SM allows their command squad to take special weapons.
& they can already take bikes.
That's a 5 man bike squad with an apothecary and 4 grav guns. For the same as our Ravenwing Command Squad + apothecary (without a banner)
It's true they don't do combat nearly as well as Black Knights, but 4 relentless grav guns makes me wish my black knights "plasma talons" were instead at least TL Plasma guns.
Sigh, I waited some 7 odd years for the DA book. I love the fluff but it would be nice to have a chance to be competitive...
Looks like it's time for random fun games for now and then back to Nids when they're released
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Post by: Malik_Raynor
Near the bottom of the bucket trying to crawl away from the Fallen.....
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Post by: jamin484
smee wrote:Just as icing on the cake, the FAQ in C: SM allows their command squad to take special weapons.
& they can already take bikes.
That's a 5 man bike squad with an apothecary and 4 grav guns. For the same as our Ravenwing Command Squad + apothecary (without a banner)
It's true they don't do combat nearly as well as Black Knights, but 4 relentless grav guns makes me wish my black knights "plasma talons" were instead at least TL Plasma guns.
Sigh, I waited some 7 odd years for the DA book. I love the fluff but it would be nice to have a chance to be competitive...
Looks like it's time for random fun games for now and then back to Nids when they're released
Can the command squad lower your toughness, initiative and WS allowing for brutal instant death shenanigans? Are its weapons twin linked? Does it have S5 rending weapons? Are they as much of a steal as black knights?
No. No. No. No.
I like grav guns and I will be allying some into my RW list. Not at the expense of black knights though and if I had to choose between them I'd choose black knights all day every day.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
jamin484 wrote:smee wrote:Just as icing on the cake, the FAQ in C: SM allows their command squad to take special weapons.
& they can already take bikes.
That's a 5 man bike squad with an apothecary and 4 grav guns. For the same as our Ravenwing Command Squad + apothecary (without a banner)
It's true they don't do combat nearly as well as Black Knights, but 4 relentless grav guns makes me wish my black knights "plasma talons" were instead at least TL Plasma guns.
Sigh, I waited some 7 odd years for the DA book. I love the fluff but it would be nice to have a chance to be competitive...
Looks like it's time for random fun games for now and then back to Nids when they're released
Can the command squad lower your toughness
Grav Guns don't care about toughness
, initiative
Black Knights are I4, and anything higher than that is generally going to make mincemeat of them. They also suck against Marines in CC.
and WS allowing for brutal instant death shenanigans?
Yeah, maybe once in a blue moon. You need at minimum a squad of 9 and 3 GL's, and to hit with every single one on an MC in order to instant death it. Otherwise you're only instant killing T4 Marine IC's at best, which your opponent would have to be really stupid to let your Knights get near.
Are its weapons twin linked?
Divination psykers can be allied in on bikes and given scout, still puts out average more hits and firepower.
Does it have S5 rending weapons?
Which are completely naff and worthless against most targets for their obscene price
Are they as much of a steal as black knights?
6 Black Knights: 256 pts, 8 S7 AP2 shots at 9'', 4 at 18''. I mean, you are taking those GL's, aren't you? Oh, and you have a chance to lose a model now and then.
5 Biker Commands with Grav Guns : 210 points, 15 Ap2 shots at 18'' that ignore toughness values and go straight to wounding against armour saves, and since you'll be firing at them 80% of the time anyway, weaker armour saves are scarcely a problem.
You want the same amount of firepower on your BK's? You need minimum 8 BK's (336 pts), and you can't take a single GL. Uh huh, I'm really sold here.
No. No. No. No.
I like grav guns and I will be allying some into my RW list. Not at the expense of black knights though and if I had to choose between them I'd choose black knights all day every day.
Biker Command Squads put out almost twice as much firepower at double the range. What they do lose, honestly, that is of value? Oh, S5 rending hammers. They're naff. They even suck against MEQ. Khan Scars even get your Scout, 1+ Jink and ignores dangerous terrain tricks, on their basic level bikers, which are also cheaper, also put out more firepower, also have longer range with their Gravs over your plasmas, and become scoring units by including a HQ choice that is 55 points cheaper than Sammael.
Marine lists become weaker because of inherent generalization. You want focused roles for your unit, not to fart-arse about with traits like being marginally better in CC.
The only competitive list RW can pull off is S.O.D abuse with Sammael. And their AA is essentially non existent without allies, whereas Scars get two incredibly viable flyers and AA tanks.
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
smee wrote:Just as icing on the cake, the FAQ in C: SM allows their command squad to take special weapons.
& they can already take bikes.
That's a 5 man bike squad with an apothecary and 4 grav guns. For the same as our Ravenwing Command Squad + apothecary (without a banner)
It's true they don't do combat nearly as well as Black Knights, but 4 relentless grav guns makes me wish my black knights "plasma talons" were instead at least TL Plasma guns.
Sigh, I waited some 7 odd years for the DA book. I love the fluff but it would be nice to have a chance to be competitive...
Looks like it's time for random fun games for now and then back to Nids when they're released
What utter Bollocks. Do the Command squad have skilled rider and a possible 2+ jink save? No.
Plasma Talons ARE twin linked plasma Guns, just sans range.
They can't get RW Grenade Launchers.
DA are competitive as any SM build at the moment.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:smee wrote:Just as icing on the cake, the FAQ in C: SM allows their command squad to take special weapons.
& they can already take bikes.
That's a 5 man bike squad with an apothecary and 4 grav guns. For the same as our Ravenwing Command Squad + apothecary (without a banner)
It's true they don't do combat nearly as well as Black Knights, but 4 relentless grav guns makes me wish my black knights "plasma talons" were instead at least TL Plasma guns.
Sigh, I waited some 7 odd years for the DA book. I love the fluff but it would be nice to have a chance to be competitive...
Looks like it's time for random fun games for now and then back to Nids when they're released
What utter Bollocks. Do the Command squad have skilled rider
Chapter Tactics : White Scars allows you to ignore dangerous terrain tests and gives you 1+ to your jink save, so yes, essentially.
and a possible 2+ jink save? No.
Requires you to blob up AND turboboost anyway to get that, and you need an 80 point unit on top of your massive investment. Besides, the entirety of the White Scars bikes gets a consistent 4+ jink and 3+ during turbo boost. Scars don't even need to turbo boost at all when your specials have an 18'' range.
Plasma Talons ARE twin linked plasma Guns, just sans range.
Range matters.
They can't get RW Grenade Launchers.
Which aren't anything amazing to a unit that already wounds most things on 3's or 2's, and sucks in combat with or without the nerf handout it provides.
DA are competitive as any SM build at the moment.
Not even close.
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Post by: Maelstrom808
 Mr.Omega wrote:Yeah, maybe once in a blue moon. You need at minimum a squad of 9 and 3 GL's, and to hit with every single one on an MC in order to instant death it. Otherwise you're only instant killing T4 Marine IC's at best, which your opponent would have to be really stupid to let your Knights get near.[/b]
Well, you aren't IDing MCs anyway unless you have a Vindicator or ally in another S10 weapon as the -1 T from the rad grenades doesn't stack.
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Post by: namiel
Maelstrom808 wrote: Mr.Omega wrote:Yeah, maybe once in a blue moon. You need at minimum a squad of 9 and 3 GL's, and to hit with every single one on an MC in order to instant death it. Otherwise you're only instant killing T4 Marine IC's at best, which your opponent would have to be really stupid to let your Knights get near.[/b]
Well for one thing any UNIT hit by a grenade from the rw gl the whole unit is affected. It doesnt say models it says units. Also I have had some pretty decent luck against things such as suits and broadsides hitting them with grenades and then insta killing them
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Post by: Tiger9gamer
I'm glad to see someone is tackling Black knight squad Versus Grav knight squad!
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Post by: Sidguard
What a bunch of whinging this is. We still have great terminators (and plasma guns still wounded us on a 2+ and ignored armor saves anyways), we still have great bikes. Sure, WS have 1+ str to how. Wow. In exchange we get
- Black Knights, one of the best all round units in the game. No seriously, 15 points more for +2 A, tl plasma gun, skilled rider and +1 str rending. That is ridiculously good. And a cheap banner to guarantee hit and run. On a friggin bike.
- Darkshrouds, allowing for 2/3 + cover saves.
- the ability to easily utilize terminators to act as anchors for the bikes,and tie up big units.
- dakka banner for insane force multiplying
Deathwing knights are still amazing, Greenwing still has insane dakka, Ravenwing still has all its toys. If you want centurions or the AA tanks that bad, run an allied detachment. Hell, stick Azrael in a squad of 6 centurions and get that sweet 4++Nothings stopping you.
Dark Angels are still great.
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Post by: VardenV2
I agree, I think Ravenwing are better bikers than the white scars at the moment, simply because of Black Knights and the command squad banners. Also, Sammael is pretty kickass.
To me, White scars are a much better speed/ harassment army that focuses on shooting, hitting, running, repeating. Ravenwing, especially combined with Deathwing, are a fast, hard-hitting army that should be zooming up, shooting, charging and then sweeping the units. Dark Angels bikes are shooty tastic, and Black Knights are great at shooting and then rolling in and killing the remaining guys in assault. Dark Angels don't want to be in assault all game, they want to be riding in and slicing off heads and getting out unharmed.
The difference is that I think White Scars have a lot more 'well rounded' options because of the flexibility of their Chapter Tactics combined with non-bikes. They can cover a lot of areas our army cannot. Perhaps ally in some White Scars with the Ravenwing? Would be one friggin' cool army in my opinion!
- VardenV2
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Sidguard wrote:What a bunch of whinging this is. We still have great terminators (and plasma guns still wounded us on a 2+ and ignored armor saves anyways), we still have great bikes. Sure, WS have 1+ str to how. Wow
And Skilled Rider on every bike. And hit and run on every other non bike model. And scout.
. In exchange we get
- Black Knights, one of the best all round units in the game.
In a vacuum, maybe. Also, all round units suck. You want focus not a mishmash of roles and wasted points.
No seriously, 15 points more for +2 A, tl plasma gun, skilled rider and +1 str rending.
On top of already expensive RW bikers. K.WS bikers only lose a teleport homer in comparison and gain skilled rider, but are 6 points cheaper.
That is ridiculously good.
Not when you compare it to WS, or, you know, read the thread.
And a cheap banner to guarantee hit and run. On a friggin bike.
You may as well cross out the entry because the SOD banner is mandatory for RW to be competitive.
- Darkshrouds, allowing for 2/3 + cover saves.
80 points on top of an already absurdly expensive unit, and they die like T5 Marines to small arms.
- the ability to easily utilize terminators to act as anchors for the bikes,and tie up big units.
What? This is far from unique to DA. Marine Sergeants can take teleport homers now anyway.
- dakka banner for insane force multiplying
This is literally the, if not one of the only things that makes DA relevant.
Greenwing still has insane dakka
With the SOD, on tactical marines. Otherwise you may as well play C:SM, because chapter tactics is that much better.
, Ravenwing still has all its toys.
Flyers and Vengeance is naff. RW GL isn't much to cheer about.
Dark Angels are still great.
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Post by: Kingsley
I generally consider DA bikes much more formidable than WS ones. The existence of the Standard of Devastation and the Ravenwing Command Squad/Black Knights/Darkshroud more than make up for WS Chapter Tactics.
WS bike units may be better in a vacuum, but Ravenwing bike armies are better overall.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
 Kingsley wrote:I generally consider DA bikes much more formidable than WS ones. The existence of the Standard of Devastation and the Ravenwing Command Squad/Black Knights/Darkshroud more than make up for WS Chapter Tactics.
RW bike units may be better in a vacuum, but Khan White Scar bike armies are better overall.
Yes just completely ignore every other post I've made in this thread. BK's do not compare to KWS Grav Gun bikers until you bring up incredibly limited use GL's and lacklustre CC ability.
Also fixed the typo in your post. Completely baseless is the assertion that RW is more flexible than KWS when the entirety of their strategy revolves around 2 weak units with 6" bubble buffs. KWS bikers can scout, move into any place 3/4 up the board ignoring terrain and shoot at basically anything with 18" AP2 fire that disables vehicles and rips Riptides a new one.
And their flyers don't suck.
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Post by: BronzeJon
I don't know where you're getting the information about grav guns, but they're the same range as your talons, 18", yours are TL, and don't knock the cc capability of BK's.
1 S4 and 4 S5 rending attacks on the charge per guy is formidable.
Also, WHY are you valuing scout so much on KWS and not RW? All RW bikes have scout, homing beacons and hit and run.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
BronzeJon wrote:I don't know where you're getting the information about grav guns, but they're the same range as your talons, 18", yours are TL,
Talons get one shot at 18'', Grav Guns get three. Grav Guns are concussive, and support other melee units. Grav Guns immobilize vehicles and strip hull points. Plasma Talons kill your 42 point Marines on occassion, and thats it.
and don't knock the cc capability of BK's.
1 S4 and 4 S5 rending attacks on the charge per guy is formidable.
Yeah, maybe to GEQ or Orks, but then again, what isn't? Grav Gun BCS' and KWS Bikers are also good against those units. 6 BK's will probably kill about 3 or so MEQ if you do the math.
For a 256 pt unit that will drop like flies to massed small arms, which is anything but rare. Khan could probably kill 2-3 MEQ on his own, between his D3 S5 hammer of wrath, furious charge and power sword.
Also, WHY are you valuing scout so much on KWS and not RW? All RW bikes have scout, homing beacons and hit and run.
Because Grav Guns make far better use of Scout than melta or plasma special spam RW squadrons, which are only worth the 6 extra points per biker if you brought deepstriking units. Sure, you have the SOD, but even 100+ bolter shots won't bring down a Riptide or most MC's, which you need to utilize your specials against and kill fast. Its also a lottery when determining how boned opponent to opponent you are for blobbing all your bikers together.
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
In a vacuum, maybe. Also, all round units suck. You want focus not a mishmash of roles and wasted points.
Clearly you've never played with Black Knights before. They roll 90% of units in the game.
On top of already expensive RW bikers. K.WS bikers only lose a teleport homer in comparison and gain skilled rider, but are 6 points cheaper.
So they're 6 points cheaper. Squeeze in two bikers per list? Big whoop.
Not when you compare it to WS, or, you know, read the thread.
White Scars are still inferior in every way.
You may as well cross out the entry because the SOD banner is mandatory for RW to be competitive.
No, you take two command squads and take two banners. You clearly don't understand how strong the Ravenwing Standard is, or how to build/play Ravenwing.
80 points on top of an already absurdly expensive unit, and they die like T5 Marines to small arms.
What? It's got a 2+ cover save. It gives you a 2+ cover save.
What? This is far from unique to DA. Marine Sergeants can take teleport homers now anyway.
You can't scout your marine sarges.
This is literally the, if not one of the only things that makes DA relevant.
PFG, Div libarians...
With the SOD, on tactical marines. Otherwise you may as well play C:SM, because chapter tactics is that much better.
Which one in particular?
Flyers and Vengeance is naff. RW GL isn't much to cheer about.
It's better equipment than anything in codex SM.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mr.Omega wrote:BronzeJon wrote:I don't know where you're getting the information about grav guns, but they're the same range as your talons, 18", yours are TL,
Talons get one shot at 18'', Grav Guns get three. Grav Guns are concussive, and support other melee units. Grav Guns immobilize vehicles and strip hull points. Plasma Talons kill your 42 point Marines on occassion, and thats it.
and don't knock the cc capability of BK's.
1 S4 and 4 S5 rending attacks on the charge per guy is formidable.
Yeah, maybe to GEQ or Orks, but then again, what isn't? Grav Gun BCS' and KWS Bikers are also good against those units. 6 BK's will probably kill about 3 or so MEQ if you do the math.
For a 256 pt unit that will drop like flies to massed small arms, which is anything but rare. Khan could probably kill 2-3 MEQ on his own, between his D3 S5 hammer of wrath, furious charge and power sword.
Also, WHY are you valuing scout so much on KWS and not RW? All RW bikes have scout, homing beacons and hit and run.
Because Grav Guns make far better use of Scout than melta or plasma special spam RW squadrons, which are only worth the 6 extra points per biker if you brought deepstriking units. Sure, you have the SOD, but even 100+ bolter shots won't bring down a Riptide or most MC's, which you need to utilize your specials against and kill fast. Its also a lottery when determining how boned opponent to opponent you are for blobbing all your bikers together.
You don't even have, much less play a Ravenwing or biker army, so please don't dispense advice about things you clearly don't know anything about.
Twin-linked plasma is still more effective in general against most things. Grav guns remain situational.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:In a vacuum, maybe. Also, all round units suck. You want focus not a mishmash of roles and wasted points.
Clearly you've never played with Black Knights before. They roll 90% of units in the game.
Uh, yes I have, on quite a few occasions. I can remember each one in detail.
The first time, they died to Firewarriors. The second time, they died to Firewarriors. The third time, they died to Noise Marines, who killed them in overwatch, and then beat them in CC. The fourth time, they got wiped out in a single round before they struck by a Daemon Prince. A unit of 8. The only thing they have ever accomplished of note is killing a Hive Tyrant and a Tervigon on two different occassions, in small point games where nothing else shot at them, and my opponents had no idea what my bikers were capable of. Grav Gun bikers do the same thing far better.
On top of already expensive RW bikers. K.WS bikers only lose a teleport homer in comparison and gain skilled rider, but are 6 points cheaper.
So they're 6 points cheaper. Squeeze in two bikers per list? Big whoop.
For every 4 bikers you get another Bike over RW. Thats big. With 4 squads (which you will probably have) thats an entirely other squad that is a straight upgrade over RW.
Not when you compare it to WS, or, you know, read the thread.
White Scars are still inferior in every way.
Evidence? I'm not seeing it.
You may as well cross out the entry because the SOD banner is mandatory for RW to be competitive.
No, you take two command squads and take two banners. You clearly don't understand how strong the Ravenwing Standard is, or how to build/play Ravenwing.
Your SOD command squad gets annihilated, either by Helldrake, or by Marker Light, or by charging unit, or by Farsight bomb, or by a Riptide with a Crisis Suit Commander attached, or by the many, many other ways of ignoring cover, and your entire list falls apart. And a PFG is still a 50:50 chance, which won't hold up against much at all.
80 points on top of an already absurdly expensive unit, and they die like T5 Marines to small arms.
What? It's got a 2+ cover save. It gives you a 2+ cover save.
Only when you turbo boost.
What? This is far from unique to DA. Marine Sergeants can take teleport homers now anyway.
You can't scout your marine sarges.
Yes, you can, because Khan gives all Tactical squads in dedicated transports Scout. They get out on the enemy deployment line by the end of the 1st turn. Bam. RWAS's only redeeming feature, a 10 pt upgrade on a 130 point squad.
This is literally the, if not one of the only things that makes DA relevant.
PFG, Div libarians...
Rune Priests on Bike are better than RW Div Librarians.
With the SOD, on tactical marines. Otherwise you may as well play C:SM, because chapter tactics is that much better.
Which one in particular?
Iron Hands, for 6+ FNP. Imperial Fists, for more accurate bolter fire. Raven Guard, for stealth and scout on all your Tactical Squads first turn, with 2+ GTG cover saves in area terrain. Ultramarines, for flexibile buffs that allow you to fight better on the fly. White Scars, for hit and run on every Marine.
Flyers and Vengeance is naff. RW GL isn't much to cheer about.
It's better equipment than anything in codex SM.
And, at this point, I can tell you've given up.
Ok, you've now gone to the level where you insult my ability to play, and I no longer see any value in discussing this with you.
I just find these insights interesting. Noone has managed to convince me RW is worth it over KWS, sadly.
You don't even have, much less play a Ravenwing or biker army, so please don't dispense advice about things you clearly don't know anything about.
Twin-linked plasma (with -6 range) is still more effective in general against most things. Grav guns remain situational.
I have a bike army, which I proxied as RW before the drop of C: SM. Please don't be so quick to assume and spit in my face.
TL Plasma is only better against units with 4+ saves compared to Grav, at which point you switch to TL bolters and murderlize them still, because anything and everything murders 4+ saves.
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Post by: namiel
Sound the butthurt alarm..........and LOCKED maybe
3933
Post by: Kingsley
Mr.Omega wrote:Yes just completely ignore every other post I've made in this thread. BK's do not compare to KWS Grav Gun bikers until you bring up incredibly limited use GL's and lacklustre CC ability.
Gotta disagree with you there. RWBKs are one of the best and most underrated units in the game.
Mr.Omega wrote:Completely baseless is the assertion that RW is more flexible than KWS when the entirety of their strategy revolves around 2 weak units with 6" bubble buffs. KWS bikers can scout, move into any place 3/4 up the board ignoring terrain and shoot at basically anything with 18" AP2 fire that disables vehicles and rips Riptides a new one.
And their flyers don't suck.
Ravenwing can Scout too, not that it matters much. You're radically overrating Scout-- against most good armies it does practically nothing.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Not at all. I have comprehensively and politely attempted to answer every opposing point, and I'm content with what I've said. This thread shouldn't be locked just because I disagree with your opinion. This a genuine topic of debate.
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Post by: Malik_Raynor
DA are for the most part outta the competitive scene. The DW are not all they are cracked up to be and they are super expensive! Ravenwing.....you mean White Scars with Black Knight allies.
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Post by: jamin484
Malik_Raynor wrote:DA are for the most part outta the competitive scene. The DW are not all they are cracked up to be and they are super expensive! Ravenwing.....you mean White Scars with Black Knight allies.
WS and RW make natural allies but I'd do it the other way around. Have a peek at this and let me know what you think.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551579.page#6039465 Automatically Appended Next Post: Mr.Omega wrote:
Not at all. I have comprehensively and politely attempted to answer every opposing point, and I'm content with what I've said. This thread shouldn't be locked just because I disagree with your opinion. This a genuine topic of debate.
I'm not sure that your interested in debate really. A lot of people have commented here disagreeing with you about this but I don't think were going to convince each other of anything and some of your posts sounds a little... upset. I suggest we agree to disagree.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
jamin484 wrote:Malik_Raynor wrote:DA are for the most part outta the competitive scene. The DW are not all they are cracked up to be and they are super expensive! Ravenwing.....you mean White Scars with Black Knight allies.
WS and RW make natural allies but I'd do it the other way around. Have a peek at this and let me know what you think.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551579.page#6039465
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr.Omega wrote:
Not at all. I have comprehensively and politely attempted to answer every opposing point, and I'm content with what I've said. This thread shouldn't be locked just because I disagree with your opinion. This a genuine topic of debate.
I'm not sure that your interested in debate really. A lot of people have commented here disagreeing with you about this but I don't think were going to convince each other of anything and some of your posts sounds a little... upset. I suggest we agree to disagree.
I am interested in debate, I'm assimilating ideas for a tournament coming up and being absolutely certain about my decisions is the name of the game.
Anyway, your list looks good, I don't contest that RW is a useful ally, especially in some regards to Scars.
By the way, you can give either of the WS Bike Squads scout by attaching Sammael to them. He has Scout so he confers it to them too by joining the unit.
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Post by: scuddman
I think there are some viable DA builds. You can do dark shroud rhino rush. When you pop smoke, with a couple dark shrouds around, their save is 3+
You can have the 4+ isave land raider sitting out in the open with what is essentially the venerable dreadnought rule.
I think what it is, is that people see the DA elements as something you can ally into space marines.
But why can't you ally the good elements of space marines into Dark angels?
Really, dreadnoughts, chaplains, captain/masters, drop pod, rhino, razorback, tactical squads, scouts, landspeeders, land raiders, devestators, assault squads are all EXACTLY the same.
Then just custom pick which is better from which codex with allies. It's really the same frickin book.
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Post by: Eldarain
 scuddman wrote:I think there are some viable DA builds. You can do dark shroud rhino rush. When you pop smoke, with a couple dark shrouds around, their save is 3+
You can have the 4+ isave land raider sitting out in the open with what is essentially the venerable dreadnought rule.
I think what it is, is that people see the DA elements as something you can ally into space marines.
But why can't you ally the good elements of space marines into Dark angels?
Really, dreadnoughts, chaplains, captain/masters, drop pod, rhino, razorback, tactical squads, scouts, landspeeders, land raiders, devestators, assault squads are all EXACTLY the same.
Then just custom pick which is better from which codex with allies. It's really the same frickin book.
Traits are much better than stubborn on all those shared units. It is for that reason that the unique DA elements are being looked at as allied additions.
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Post by: jamin484
Mr.Omega wrote:jamin484 wrote:Malik_Raynor wrote:DA are for the most part outta the competitive scene. The DW are not all they are cracked up to be and they are super expensive! Ravenwing.....you mean White Scars with Black Knight allies.
WS and RW make natural allies but I'd do it the other way around. Have a peek at this and let me know what you think.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551579.page#6039465
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr.Omega wrote:
Not at all. I have comprehensively and politely attempted to answer every opposing point, and I'm content with what I've said. This thread shouldn't be locked just because I disagree with your opinion. This a genuine topic of debate.
I'm not sure that your interested in debate really. A lot of people have commented here disagreeing with you about this but I don't think were going to convince each other of anything and some of your posts sounds a little... upset. I suggest we agree to disagree.
I am interested in debate, I'm assimilating ideas for a tournament coming up and being absolutely certain about my decisions is the name of the game.
Anyway, your list looks good, I don't contest that RW is a useful ally, especially in some regards to Scars.
By the way, you can give either of the WS Bike Squads scout by attaching Sammael to them. He has Scout so he confers it to them too by joining the unit.
Fair enough mate. I suppose one of the main reasons I like my RW bikers over the grav gun unit (they are both very powerful) is the RW grenade launcher. Once a unit is hit by it you can reduce their T by one or their WS/initative to one for the rest of the turn. This means that the rest of the army can shoot their salvo 4 bolters at T3 marines or whatever or it means that you can charge that unit of harlequins/ daemonettes etc, strike first and butcher them. The T/L talons are also great for hunting flyers because the bike platform means that you can get in behind them and get penetrating AP2 hits. Reducing toughness is also really important when you consider their hammers are S5 and HoW. I've already mentioned the fantastic ability to instant kill characters but it also wipes out FNP for a lot of units. It's probably my favourite piece of equipment.
The grav command squad fulfils a similar role but is slightly more specialised to kill MC's and wave serpents. This is great because those units are hard to deal with but think about their weakness when going up against daemons, harlequins etc.
BK's can deal with almost anything if they get the drop on it because they are really good at shooting and combat. The grav command squad is something that can change the meta significantly because it is purpose built to kill things that have been dominating tournaments e.g wave serpents riptides other MC's. They both have a place, but I think the versatility of the BK's edges it.
Cheers
Jamin
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
With the addition of grav weapons murding serpents, riptides and MC's, do you think we'll see less of them?
If so, with less Serpents and Riptides around, does that make DA more viable again?
-Matt
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Post by: jamin484
 HawaiiMatt wrote:With the addition of grav weapons murding serpents, riptides and MC's, do you think we'll see less of them?
If so, with less Serpents and Riptides around, does that make DA more viable again?
-Matt
I hope so yeah. That was what I was most pleased about with the new codex, it rebalanced older powerful 'dex's without being unbalanced in its own right, unlike the tau codex for instance which ended necron dominance by replacing it as the most powerful book.
To be honest I haven't even shot a grav gun yet, I'm having too much fun with my guard right now to be using my white scars. My HQ choice, captain vegetable, is yet to get a run out....
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
The first time, they died to Firewarriors. The second time, they died to Firewarriors. The third time, they died to Noise Marines, who killed them in overwatch, and then beat them in CC. The fourth time, they got wiped out in a single round before they struck by a Daemon Prince. A unit of 8. The only thing they have ever accomplished of note is killing a Hive Tyrant and a Tervigon on two different occassions, in small point games where nothing else shot at them, and my opponents had no idea what my bikers were capable of. Grav Gun bikers do the same thing far better.
Sounds like bad generalship to me. Firewarriors should not exist past turn one against SoD Ravenwing. Noise Marines are a threat, but still rare and as susceptible to being banner-boltered, being infantry.
Why should a DP ever be able to kill more than the champ? Challenge, automatic hit-and-run, lay waste.
Grav-guns remain situational. Plasma Talons/ GL remain better against Daemons, Daemon Princes, AV10/11, ID-ing Wraiths and Paladins, Wraithguard...
For every 4 bikers you get another Bike over RW. Thats big. With 4 squads (which you will probably have) thats an entirely other squad that is a straight upgrade over RW.
Until the White Scars bikes are able to fire 4 shots per bike at 24", no amount of points discount will make them remotely equal.
Evidence? I'm not seeing it.
You see what you choose to see. Everyone here has told you you're wrong, but you keep hacking on about your silly Grav Gun command squad, which puts them nearly on par with RW but not quite equal, because their cc still sucks.
Your SOD command squad gets annihilated, either by Helldrake, or by Marker Light, or by charging unit, or by Farsight bomb, or by a Riptide with a Crisis Suit Commander attached, or by the many, many other ways of ignoring cover, and your entire list falls apart. And a PFG is still a 50:50 chance, which won't hold up against much at all.
Helldrakes and Farsightbombs are turn two, earliest. This is a classic example of theory-crafting... it ignores your cover, it must destroy you instantly! There are many ways to mitigate the damage from above-mentioned threats.
Ravenwing isn't top tier simply because of Tau ignores cover, this is fact. But how does this make them worse than WS, who can't even get the 4++ unless they... ally in Ravenwing?
Only when you turbo boost.
There isn't a turn when you're not turbo boosting with your Darkshroud.
Yes, you can, because Khan gives all Tactical squads in dedicated transports Scout. They get out on the enemy deployment line by the end of the 1st turn. Bam. RWAS's only redeeming feature, a 10 pt upgrade on a 130 point squad.
This is assuming you take Khan instead of a Chapter Master, who is probably better. In any case, scouting teleporters are useless in the meta. so this point is moot.
Rune Priests on Bike are better than RW Div Librarians.
5th edition hangover, will lose their 4+ DTW bubble soon and anyway cost almost twice as much.
Iron Hands, for 6+ FNP. Imperial Fists, for more accurate bolter fire. Raven Guard, for stealth and scout on all your Tactical Squads first turn, with 2+ GTG cover saves in area terrain. Ultramarines, for flexibile buffs that allow you to fight better on the fly. White Scars, for hit and run on every Marine.
Marginal improvements which don't address their basic weaknesses, and still inferior to SoD bolters in a Fortress.
And, at this point, I can tell you've given up.
Well, it seems you have since you can't name me a better piece of equipment in codex SM.
Ok, you've now gone to the level where you insult my ability to play, and I no longer see any value in discussing this with you.
I just find these insights interesting. Noone has managed to convince me RW is worth it over KWS, sadly.
No one is insulting your ability to play, just questioning your judgement. In any case, seems like you've made up your mind... and nothing is going to convince you.
I have a bike army, which I proxied as RW before the drop of C:SM. Please don't be so quick to assume and spit in my face.
TL Plasma is only better against units with 4+ saves compared to Grav, at which point you switch to TL bolters and murderlize them still, because anything and everything murders 4+ saves.
Sorry for jumping to conclusions, but if you have actual experience with them you should realise how rapey Ravenwing can get.
Grav guns are only better against T8 and Riptides, and AV 12+, mathematical fact.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Grav guns are only better against T8 and Riptides, and AV 12+, mathematical fact.
Uh, no?
In a unit of 6 RWBK with 4 plasma talons (you don't get to bang on about your RW GL's if you're not taking them) costing 256 points, you're doing 5.5~ wounds against MEQ, whereas a Grav Command Squad on bikes gets 6.667. That's a mathematical fact. If you use a prescience psyker allied in you're then up to 8.889 wounds.
Against termies, GG's kill 5.556, plasma talons kill 3.951.
and nothing is going to convince you.
Because you're giving the same point over and over and that doesn't make it any more legitimate when I have solid numbers.
Black Knights only get better statistically than GG Command Squads in shooting until they reach 7 plasma talons. Fact. GG Command Squads have twice the effective range and don't have to get within literally assault range to pull off enough firepower to annihilate a unit. 5 BK's on average kill 3.333 Marines on the charge. Fact. (General and widely shared opinion: That's crap for 210 points)
The only thing you have to offer is 'but they have CC! CC!' and 'its only situational!1'
You take a CC orientated list with Marines to a tournament. I dare you. Focus is better than generalization. I'd take 5 plasma guns on MEQ over 4 plasma guns and a power weapon on MEQ (allow me to point out this is an analogy) any day of the week.
GG's neuter Serpent Spam and Riptides, the two most common and deadly builds right now. NOVA open's top 15 rankers was almost entirely Tau/Eldar, as was the other huge UK tournament recently.
5th edition hangover, will lose their 4+ DTW bubble soon and anyway cost almost twice as much.
Grumble more. It'll be around for a lot longer.
This is assuming you take Khan instead of a Chapter Master, who is probably better. In any case, scouting teleporters are useless in the meta. so this point is moot.
Former point is petty, latter point is objectively wrong.
Well, it seems you have since you can't name me a better piece of equipment in codex SM.
Dark Talon/Nephillim? Storm Talon. Storm Raven.
DA Relic Weapons? Eternal Warrior shield. AP2 strike at initiative weapon with 3+ strength. Chaplain-in-a-box banner.
DA AA tanks? Oh wait.
Stubborn Tactical Squads? Chapter tactic Tactical Squads.
Land Speeder Vengeance? Grav Centurions.
Company Veterans? Sternguard.
There isn't a turn when you're not turbo boosting with your Darkshroud.
Oh please, you know what I meant. You're not going to be turbo-boosting your BK's 24/7.
Helldrakes and Farsightbombs are turn two, earliest. This is a classic example of theory-crafting... it ignores your cover, it must destroy you instantly! There are many ways to mitigate the damage from above-mentioned threats.
Ravenwing isn't top tier simply because of Tau ignores cover, this is fact. But how does this make them worse than WS, who can't even get the 4++ unless they... ally in Ravenwing?
Yeah, well saying this won't make your opponent pack his models away when you do play them (which you almost certainly will at a tournament), and those are only examples I could think of at the time.
WS don't need a 4++ because their list doesn't break into tiny pieces when a few units go pop.
Sounds like bad generalship to me. Firewarriors should not exist past turn one against SoD Ravenwing. Noise Marines are a threat, but still rare and as susceptible to being banner-boltered, being infantry.
Why should a DP ever be able to kill more than the champ? Challenge, automatic hit-and-run, lay waste.
'Pfft I would have done it better' does not form a legitimate argument.
Allow me to make this abundantly clear: If you think CC is actually a staple of the meta, and actually better than 20/25% more raw, reliable firepower, you're disillusioned. Ask any player and the odds are they will tell you that.
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Post by: BronzeJon
Stubborn tac squads? Your whole army has stubborn in DA, it's called grim resolve.
DA get the PFG, which applied to a libby/chappy on bike can keep up with a lot of your army and provide a to vehicles.
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
Uh, no?
In a unit of 6 RWBK with 4 plasma talons (you don't get to bang on about your RW GL's if you're not taking them) costing 256 points, you're doing 5.5~ wounds against MEQ, whereas a Grav Command Squad on bikes gets 6.667. That's a mathematical fact. If you use a prescience psyker allied in you're then up to 8.889 wounds.
Against termies, GG's kill 5.556, plasma talons kill 3.951.
You completely ignore my point about Daemons, Insta-death, and light armour. Grav guns suck at those. Sure they're marginally better against termies, but so what?
Because you're giving the same point over and over and that doesn't make it any more legitimate when I have solid numbers.
Black Knights only get better statistically than GG Command Squads in shooting until they reach 7 plasma talons. Fact. GG Command Squads have twice the effective range and don't have to get within literally assault range to pull off enough firepower to annihilate a unit. 5 BK's on average kill 3.333 Marines on the charge. Fact. (General and widely shared opinion: That's crap for 210 points)
You have any effective range of 18", which isn't huge.Things that want to charge you will get to do so. Did I mention that they suck against Daemons? There's lots of reasons why you'd want to be in close combat, but they seem lost on you. Doing additional wounds, staying out of shooting... doing damage in their turn as well as yours...
The only thing you have to offer is 'but they have CC! CC!' and 'its only situational!1'
You take a CC orientated list with Marines to a tournament. I dare you. Focus is better than generalization. I'd take 5 plasma guns on MEQ over 4 plasma guns and a power weapon on MEQ (allow me to point out this is an analogy) any day of the week.
Where did I say it's a tournament effective list? I specifically said that because of ignores cover it doesn't do so well. In any case, your vaunted WS command squad will evaporate just as fast, if not faster, since you don't have a 4++. Your analogy is compelety off point.
GG's neuter Serpent Spam and Riptides, the two most common and deadly builds right now. NOVA open's top 15 rankers was almost entirely Tau/Eldar, as was the other huge UK tournament recently.
No, they don't. You get to shoot one WS with your command squad. Space Marines of all stripes are still inferior (though RW is still better than WS.)
Grumble more. It'll be around for a lot longer.
I'm not grumbling, I'm just pointing out that you're comparing a 5th ed codex to a 6th ed codex. And failed to address the point difference. 6th's release schedule means you'll be getting SW sooner than you think.
Former point is petty, latter point is objectively wrong.
Sure, deepstrike those derpminators. FTW!
Dark Talon/Nephillim? Storm Talon. Storm Raven.
DA Relic Weapons? Eternal Warrior shield. AP2 strike at initiative weapon with 3+ strength. Chaplain-in-a-box banner.
DA AA tanks? Oh wait.
Stubborn Tactical Squads? Chapter tactic Tactical Squads.
Land Speeder Vengeance? Grav Centurions.
Company Veterans? Sternguard.
You're naming comparison units, not equipment....
Oh please, you know what I meant. You're not going to be turbo-boosting your BK's 24/7.
First you say that it dies as fast as a T5 marine, but then backtrack to talk about BKs. What? It's a 2+ cover save, and any shots at it are shots not going at your bikes.
Yeah, well saying this won't make your opponent pack his models away when you do play them (which you almost certainly will at a tournament), and those are only examples I could think of at the time.
WS don't need a 4++ because their list doesn't break into tiny pieces when a few units go pop.
Yes, it does. Other than the grav gun command squad, what do you have that can compete in a tournament environment that RW doesn't? Nothing.
Pfft I would have done it better' does not form a legitimate argument.
Failing to come up with an argument, you simply denigrate mine. Great strategy there.
Allow me to make this abundantly clear: If you think CC is actually a staple of the meta, and actually better than 20/25% more raw, reliable firepower, you're disillusioned. Ask any player and the odds are they will tell you that.
No where in my post did I mention CC as a staple of the meta. You have failed to demonstrate how quantitatively better WS lists are, considering they die just as fast to the same threats RW do. An additional squad of bikes isn't going to help you.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
You completely ignore my point about Daemons, Insta-death, and light armour. Grav guns suck at those. Sure they're marginally better against termies, but so what?
GEQ-4+svEQ die to bolters like babies anyway. Instant death has a very specific use against specific units, and isn't always going to occur in the first place.
But what's the point mentioning this, you've already ignored it twice, and the fact that you were objectively wrong about them being mathematically better at killing MEQ and TEQ. Average 2 more 40 point kills is not a 'marginal increase'.
You have any effective range of 18", which isn't huge.Things that want to charge you will get to do so. Did I mention that they suck against Daemons? There's lots of reasons why you'd want to be in close combat, but they seem lost on you. Doing additional wounds, staying out of shooting... doing damage in their turn as well as yours...
A devastating threat range of 30''. They can fire from the middle of the board and with 3 shots. That means they're capable of neutralizing vehicles, abusing factors to avoid being charged, and stay out of rapid fire range, amongst other things. They can shave half the wounds off a Riptide at that distance.
Where did I say it's a tournament effective list? I specifically said that because of ignores cover it doesn't do so well. In any case, your vaunted WS command squad will evaporate just as fast, if not faster, since you don't have a 4++. Your analogy is compelety off point.
You don't walk into a 'tactics' forum and boast about how RW is the best thing since sliced bread only to say 'well muh its not a tournament list'.
You made out that ignores cover was too circumstantial to be afraid of. A 210 point unit is not half as much of a loss as 256-378 point BK unit with as only just as much firepower or even less.
Analogy is anything but off point. Focus is the name of the game. The entire reason people take the SOD is because it provides raw, focused firepower that annihilates when you exploit Tacticals with it in a gunline, you don't see people parading C: SM Tactical Squads as being better because they might be marginally better at something like escaping CC or challenges.
No, they don't. You get to shoot one WS with your command squad. Space Marines of all stripes are still inferior (though RW is still better than WS.)
Strawman harder. Of course I'm not going to take one unit of BCSGG's, I could take two, and by default troops are going to be KWS Grav Gun Bikers, which are basically a straight upgrade over RWAS' besides 'useless teleport homers. Allow me to remind you that you said that yourself.
You just ignored that point last time though. Cough.
First you say that it dies as fast as a T5 marine, but then backtrack to talk about BKs. What? It's a 2+ cover save, and any shots at it are shots not going at your bikes.
I'm not talking about the Shroud, duh. I'm talking about the Knights and how without the 2+ cover save given by the shroud during turboboosting they are just T5 Marines against small arms.
Yes, it does. Other than the grav gun command squad, what do you have that can compete in a tournament environment that RW doesn't? Nothing.
Oh, so we're now back to the pretence that this is a tournament level discussion.
What does KWS have?
AA that doesn't suck.
Flyers that don't suck.
Bikers that are a straight upgrade over RWAS. If your plasma guns were even that good, they'd take them too.
Land Speeder Storm Scouts that can pinch objectives and sit on them with ridiculous cover saves, disrupt DS'ers, blind entire units, provide heavy flamers, and come in about 100 points.
Thunderfire Cannons that makes a mockery of the low armour save infantry you seem to make such a big deal of, and knocks scoring units off cover and wins games.
Tau and Space Wolf Battle Brother allies.
Ironclad Dreadnoughts in a DP.
For various roles, as the recent thread I posted investigated, Sternguard.
RW gets:
SOD.
PFG.
Shroud.
Confused and unoptimal BK's.
No where in my post did I mention CC as a staple of the meta. You have failed to demonstrate how quantitatively better WS lists are, considering they die just as fast to the same threats RW do. An additional squad of bikes isn't going to help you.
You act like its a big deal and is worth missing out on 20% more firepower and double the range at which to use it effectively.
KWS can take punches where RW crumbles. KWS doesn't have a SOD or Shroud that anchors your entire list. Losing a unit like Black Knights is potentially game ending, not so much for a BCSGG squad which is 30%~ cheaper for the same ranged effectiveness, which as I have said is objectively better because you use it inherently more.
An additional squad of bikes will make all the difference. That's nine extra AP2 shots on one turn and 6 in the following, and another unit that can steal objectives at the last second and pump lead into units.
RW do die just as fast as KWS, true. But KWS has more models, more list backbone, and actually has AA defense. I count forth time we've ignored the prospect of AA.
With luck, maybe you won't ignore half the points made in this post. And please don't make misguided assumptions about what I do or would do.
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Post by: Polythemus
You know I just read through this thread and quite frankly its a bit ridculous. There is a lot of petty back and forth going on here with mildly valid points thrown in; between people who think they are having a serious conversation, but really are talking about who has the best made up rules for a game of plastic space man doll toys.
There are two problems going on here.
Mr. Omega your problem is that you came to a topic that is clearly about how to get the best out of a chapter that some are feeling "glass half-empty" about. Rather than recognizing the fact that the topic has the scope of staying within confines of "lets figure out what works," you are essentially telling people that they need to codex jump now, because they are all idiots, spacessssshhh marinez iz bettr!!! Which people tend not to appreciate.
Now style of presentation aside, you make several good points. grav guns are powerful, white scars are very good. You made this point in many ways using numbers, using opinions, using mathhammer (which is not the same as using real statistics but ill cut you a break there.) but in so doing you have framed your argument "are grav gun white scars better than ravenwing, yes or no? If no refer to all my points which i've made in succinct little easily digestible sound bites, then reconsider the aforementioned question. if yes then why don't you drop $1000 on a new army, or play with the new codex cause the investment you've made in your current army is worthless stupidity."
If you had instead made your point saying, "i think ravenwing can benefit from new space marine allies with grav guns look how good they are," then you would have been addressing the point of the thread better and not gotten such a negative reaction.
I know nothing about you, your experiences, the kind of player you are, how much you value good paint jobs, what you consider part of the hobby, or how you vote. But i know that by being a little less flippant and snide in how you addressed a rather tender spot in the hearts of many dark angel players, you would have gotten a better reaction. I wish you good luck with your white scars, clearly they are run by a general who will squeeze every ounce of efficiency out of them. May you win your next tournament by a wide margin.
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Post by: Haight
I plan on picking up a DA army, because i love the look. I figure if i like the rules i'll run with codex: DA, if not, i'll use them as counts as C: SM until their codex gets revamped in 7th ed. 
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Post by: General Hobbs
So, can anyone point me to some good websites or blogs with info and tips on how to do a Ravenwing army???? No one around here plays it, and I've never seen it in action so no clue how it works.
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Post by: whembly
General Hobbs wrote:
So, can anyone point me to some good websites or blogs with info and tips on how to do a Ravenwing army???? No one around here plays it, and I've never seen it in action so no clue how it works.
Depends on what you really wanna do... if you want to go all RW bikes... consider the truly awesome firepowah from the Standard of Devestation (SOD):
 Mannahnin wrote:
Every bike unit with a single model within 6" of the standard bearer quadruples their firepower from over 12" away. In a focused Ravenwing army with a lot of bikes (say, 30+), that takes you from (for example) 30-odd twin-linked bolter shots into the enemy on turn 1 from outside charge range, to 120+ twin-linked bolter shots into the enemy on turn 1 from outside charge range. 12" Scout + 12" move + 24" full firepower with Salvo on the Relentless model = you can hit anywhere on the table unless your opponent is hiding out of LOS or has put a sacrificial screen way far forward (by infiltrating, generally, to actually prevent your Scout + move + 24" range from easily reaching his back table edge), or perhaps is a Grey Knight player who didn't just take Coteaz and/or Draigo, so has a normal character with the option and took Servo Skulls to block your Scout redploys.
Those 120-odd bolters get even scarier when the unit/s being hit have been clipped by a Rad grenade and are at -1 Toughness. The Ravenwing alpha strike is serious pain for a lot of armies.
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Post by: UnadoptedPuppy
Gonna have to throw my .02 in here.
S5 rending might not sound amazing, but think about hitting a unit after lighting them up with plasma talons, then either dropped T by one ( ID anything T3) or against marines drop their WS and I by one. You're now hitting on 3s (against marines here), wounding on 3s with rending, after a HoW attack. If they survive you hit and run (autopass with banner) then do it again.
Sure WS has H&R, but they cannot utilize it as well as RW can. The autopass is incredible. It assures me that I can hide from helldrakes, marker lights, etc. and still use my SoD.
All this talk about 2 RWCS and not much about the 2nd HQ. A ML2 Librarian taking Telepathy is so underrated. You don't need divination with RW. I'd even consider a Chaplain on a bike if you are determined to make a RWCS assaulty.
DW Knights are amazing by the way. If you're letting Firewarriros rip them apart (which they will) then you aren't using your SoD on the right targets or you've got terrible placement, which you shouldn't with all those homers around.
If I'm getting into DW here I can't forget Mortis Contemptors, or even regular Mortis dreads. Regular terminators alone can give you some nice TL heavy weapon shots, and with homers and DWA you have full control of when they arrive.
And finally, Land Speeder spam is awesome 
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Post by: Solosam47
Man O man I hope the rumor of the fallen supplement is true, I guess what I really hope is for GW to just breath a little more new life into the DA so we don't feel like a test tube baby.
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Post by: Syphid
 Solosam47 wrote:Man O man I hope the rumor of the fallen supplement is true, I guess what I really hope is for GW to just breath a little more new life into the DA so we don't feel like a test tube baby.
Wouldn't that be a CSM supplement?
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Post by: Mythantor
On a completely irrelevant note I can't shake the idea that the DA Techmarines were all out for a smoke when they were handing out the toys back on Mars
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
GEQ-4+svEQ die to bolters like babies anyway. Instant death has a very specific use against specific units, and isn't always going to occur in the first place.
But what's the point mentioning this, you've already ignored it twice, and the fact that you were objectively wrong about them being mathematically better at killing MEQ and TEQ. Average 2 more 40 point kills is not a 'marginal increase'.
Specific units being Paladins and Wraiths, both huge threats and relatively common. I was talking about Greater Daemons, or is Flying Circus not a thing where you play? Without Grav- amps, grav guns against vehicles is a toss up at most, while plasma remains effective against anything up to AV12.
A devastating threat range of 30''. They can fire from the middle of the board and with 3 shots. That means they're capable of neutralizing vehicles, abusing factors to avoid being charged, and stay out of rapid fire range, amongst other things. They can shave half the wounds off a Riptide at that distance.
I'm not sure which codex you are reading, but in mine its says grav guns have an 18" range, not 30". How are you avoiding getting charged from 18" away or even staying out of rapid fire range?
You don't walk into a 'tactics' forum and boast about how RW is the best thing since sliced bread only to say 'well muh its not a tournament list'.
The only comparison I've been making is to a Codex: SM biker armies.
You made out that ignores cover was too circumstantial to be afraid of. A 210 point unit is not half as much of a loss as 256-378 point BK unit with as only just as much firepower or even less.
It's still your main teeth unit dead, regardless. Again, RW have ways to mitigate this that WS don't.
Analogy is anything but off point. Focus is the name of the game. The entire reason people take the SOD is because it provides raw, focused firepower that annihilates when you exploit Tacticals with it in a gunline, you don't see people parading C:SM Tactical Squads as being better because they might be marginally better at something like escaping CC or challenges.
SoD really only works with Ravenwing or dakka Raiders, because tacticals don't have the mobility or survivability to exploit it.
Strawman harder. Of course I'm not going to take one unit of BCSGG's, I could take two, and by default troops are going to be KWS Grav Gun Bikers, which are basically a straight upgrade over RWAS' besides 'useless teleport homers. Allow me to remind you that you said that yourself.
Two WS command squads seems quite effective, but still suffer from the same weaknesses as any biker army.
I'm not talking about the Shroud, duh. I'm talking about the Knights and how without the 2+ cover save given by the shroud during turboboosting they are just T5 Marines against small arms.
Only T5 Marines with possibly FNP... Tell me again how this is weak against small arms?
Oh, so we're now back to the pretence that this is a tournament level discussion.
What does KWS have?
AA that doesn't suck.
Flyers that don't suck.
Bikers that are a straight upgrade over RWAS. If your plasma guns were even that good, they'd take them too.
Land Speeder Storm Scouts that can pinch objectives and sit on them with ridiculous cover saves, disrupt DS'ers, blind entire units, provide heavy flamers, and come in about 100 points.
Thunderfire Cannons that makes a mockery of the low armour save infantry you seem to make such a big deal of, and knocks scoring units off cover and wins games.
Tau and Space Wolf Battle Brother allies.
Ironclad Dreadnoughts in a DP.
For various roles, as the recent thread I posted investigated, Sternguard.
The inclusion of which would cease to make your WS army a biker army.
RW gets:
SOD.
PFG.
Shroud.
Confused and unoptimal BK's.
I can assure you my confused BKs will roll any White Scars every time.
You act like its a big deal and is worth missing out on 20% more firepower and double the range at which to use it effectively.
KWS can take punches where RW crumbles. KWS doesn't have a SOD or Shroud that anchors your entire list. Losing a unit like Black Knights is potentially game ending, not so much for a BCSGG squad which is 30%~ cheaper for the same ranged effectiveness, which as I have said is objectively better because you use it inherently more.
An additional squad of bikes will make all the difference. That's nine extra AP2 shots on one turn and 6 in the following, and another unit that can steal objectives at the last second and pump lead into units.
RW do die just as fast as KWS, true. But KWS has more models, more list backbone, and actually has AA defense. I count forth time we've ignored the prospect of AA.
With luck, maybe you won't ignore half the points made in this post. And please don't make misguided assumptions about what I do or would do.
This is essentially the crux of your argument, which is WS can get grav guns and an extra squad so they are better, hurr durr. I'll concede that WS are better at shooting certain targets (namely Riptides and Wraithknights) but fail horribly at others (Greater Daemons, IG. Dark Eldar). The problem with the WS list is that it's a middle-tier shooty list in a meta where top-tier shooty lists will destroy you, and is too ineffective in CC to utilise their mobility fully. The advantage of RW is the ability to remain effective in both phases. Including AA dilutes your list to some extent, which means less angry bikers punching your face in turn 2.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Polythemus wrote:You know I just read through this thread and quite frankly its a bit ridculous. There is a lot of petty back and forth going on here with mildly valid points thrown in; between people who think they are having a serious conversation, but really are talking about who has the best made up rules for a game of plastic space man doll toys.
Best post here. Look, 40k is serious business okay?
Haight wrote:I plan on picking up a DA army, because i love the look. I figure if i like the rules i'll run with codex: DA, if not, i'll use them as counts as C: SM until their codex gets revamped in 7th ed.
Best of both worlds eh?
General Hobbs wrote:
So, can anyone point me to some good websites or blogs with info and tips on how to do a Ravenwing army???? No one around here plays it, and I've never seen it in action so no clue how it works.
PM sent.
Solosam47 wrote:Man O man I hope the rumor of the fallen supplement is true, I guess what I really hope is for GW to just breath a little more new life into the DA so we don't feel like a test tube baby.
DA still have some tricks up their sleeve!
Mythantor wrote:On a completely irrelevant note I can't shake the idea that the DA Techmarines were all out for a smoke when they were handing out the toys back on Mars
Well in the new fluff nobody in the chapter trusts them after their Martian excursion so I'm sure the inner circle just keep it all for themselves.
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Post by: labmouse42
BronzeJon wrote:Stubborn tac squads? Your whole army has stubborn in DA, it's called grim resolve..
The irony is that stubborn is a disadvantage when you have ATSKNF. You usually want to break out of an assault and run. Automatically Appended Next Post: Could you elaborate on this please? I'd like to hear your thoughts as to why this is the case.
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Post by: UnadoptedPuppy
Syphid wrote: Solosam47 wrote:Man O man I hope the rumor of the fallen supplement is true, I guess what I really hope is for GW to just breath a little more new life into the DA so we don't feel like a test tube baby.
Wouldn't that be a CSM supplement?
That was my thinking considering Inner Circle gives PE: CSM and there's no reason for DA not to have PE against their Fallen brethren.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
UnadoptedPuppy wrote:Syphid wrote: Solosam47 wrote:Man O man I hope the rumor of the fallen supplement is true, I guess what I really hope is for GW to just breath a little more new life into the DA so we don't feel like a test tube baby.
Wouldn't that be a CSM supplement?
That was my thinking considering Inner Circle gives PE: CSM and there's no reason for DA not to have PE against their Fallen brethren.
Could be a mix of both
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Post by: SheSpits
I have been playing RW for a ew months now. I love the idea and fluff of RW, game wise i can point out there flaws (or what is lacking from my stand point).
RWCS= I only use it for the banner, this is always my enemys target i maybe get one round of dakka out of it.
RWBK= This is RW death star unit and of course the first thing people kill. Even with a darkshourd and a libby casting Invsiable they still die like a normal biker. CC they can put a hurting on most things.
Darkshourd= Always a good choice. no upgrades.
RW Bikers= They do not have skilled rider, they do have scout and Hit and Run. EZ to kill if not around the banner they are nothing but a normal biker.
Sammy=not great not bad if i could creat a commander that unlocked bikes as troops id much rather do so.
RW Flying= Do i need to say anything? I mean you can take one with the bolter and try to hit rear armor.
Over all RW is cool fun and if put into the hands of a really good player can do damage. RW is good but you have to keep key untis alive for them to really shine. Once those units are dead RW starts to lose its punch.
Now my main question is GreenWing, Ive tried to create a few list. I like the idea of the banner in a LR, my question is this,
Can i take a LR with the following inside.
Libby PFG
Tech Marine
Command unti with dakka banner
Floating behind the LR is the darkshourd, around the Darkshorud i will be rhino spamming. or two Darkshourds followed by the Command Raider and some rhinos. I will be spamming Marines.
Will i get the boon from the PFG while the Libby is inside and will it spread to the Darkshourd and the rhinos? And can i have them all start inside the LR.
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Post by: scuddman
In the last faq, the force generator only works on a foot model outside a vehicle.
Edit: Oh, and the whole thing about wanting to run away never really made that much sense to me. If I'm on an objective, odds are I don't want to run away. Nothing I hate more than falling back on the last turn when my unit was on an objective and losing because of that. Choosing to run away doesn't exist anymore unless you take calgar anyways.
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Post by: SheSpits
Still worth taking, can i start with them already in the land raider?
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Post by: scuddman
Yes, but then only the landraider has the 4+i save while the librarian is inside.
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Post by: VardenV2
scuddman wrote:Yes, but then only the landraider has the 4+i save while the librarian is inside.
I don't believe this is true. I think only the unit inside has the 4++, and, since it can't be targeted, is being wasted until the LR is killed or the unit gets out. I don't think the bubble goes out to the LR if the guys are inside. I may be mistaken though.
- VardenV2
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Post by: Ninjacommando
The Power field generator only affects the unit inside of the transport. to get around that you get it on a Libby with a bike and have him sandwiched between 3 land raiders or following rightbehind one so that the enemy cant see him
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Post by: SheSpits
 Ninjacommando wrote:The Power field generator only affects the unit inside of the transport. to get around that you get it on a Libby with a bike and have him sandwiched between 3 land raiders or following rightbehind one so that the enemy cant see him
Ok ill go this route, since i already ave a libby on bike with a PFG for my RW.
Thanks,
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Post by: Jackal
What a complete mess this thread is 0_o
Not even sure where to start really.
The main catch seems to be knights vs grav bikes.
To be honest, the main idea for both of these units is to hunt down high priority targets that will cause you issues.
That grav gun will be doing far more than plasma since the targets your hunting will usually be high T, great save, ++ save and will either want to drag you into combat or shoot at you.
No matter how you cut it, that grav gun puts out alot more shots at range, which is what matter since it cuts any threat of return fire.
Why are people on about targets with bad armour saves?
If people are firing plasma / grav at models with poor saves, your doing it wrong anyway and need a slap 
They are designed to hunt heavy armour (+ and AV)
Killing basic troops should be left to other units.
Also, CC aint too great in this edition.
So what if the knights are better in combat?
Why the feth would you want an expensive unit thrown into combat with anything?
It will either be a large tarpit of basic troops, or elite troops that will kill your knights anyway.
40k is gone of the days of mixed role units.
Anti-tank and anti-horde (shooting and combat) are very different.
You really want to be using units that are dedicated to those roles instead of going for a half arsed result at something they should not be doing in the 1st place.
Thats like firing heavy bolters at armour and lascannons at troops
To be honest, i play a mix of armies including tau, daemons, Iron hands, nids, and no matter what way you cut it, i rather face those knights because i know i can tear them apart with less losses.
That amazing cover save?
Ill just remove it then shoot the unit with small arms or throw a FMC into combat with it and it means nothing anymore.
They have no real edge over normal bikes that actually mean anything.
Grav guns are pretty much the sole reason normal bikes beat ravenwing bikes.
Its sad to say since ive allways loves DA, but the simple addition of those guns really does make a massive difference.
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Post by: Tsilber
I think the army is great still, people can hate all they want. The army offers some of the best IC's in the game. Azreal making every unit on the board leadership 10. Making termies and bikes troops.
Black Knights.
Dakka banner.
The fact you can effectively make the whole army benefit from FNP ( T5 if you on bikes )
Sammeal
Terminator death wing assault? Combined with a unit of bikes that scout moved and started on the board. (Yes i know you cant do a full death-wing army assault, as half units have to start on the board. please spare me... its not that big of a deal)
45/55 point attack bikes as troops
POWER FIELD GENERATORS
And frankly, one of my favorite tourney wins was when i ran 3 land raider crusaders, venerable, banner inside one. Tech on bike with PFG. This list was brutal.
The only bad things about Dark angels is , no thunder fire cannon. No anti vehicle - cost effective flyers.
But thats why you ally space marines...
I keep hearing about grav guns... What good are those against a deamon army or a tyranid army. Not a 4 DP, any tard can play army, but a hoard army. Go ahead wound on a six... Black knights get 2 shots, twin linked, ap2 guns also. That wound on a 2 most times. And have a grenade shot that will lower your Toughness. Wraiths, Paladins, Fiends... all Instant killed now by black knights....
Space marines are inferior to dark angels for the sole reason... Anything you can make troops in that army will get instant killed on 3+ (and most cases 2+) by a helldrakes (which can burn for rerolls 1 time per game and you simply cant spread out enough to not feel the pain of the template). 2-3 hell drake armies are going to have these boards crying about how terrible the new space marines are soon enough. I like space marines i really do. I will play the book, but superior to dark angels? I think not.
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Post by: Mythantor
I keep hearing about grav guns... What good are those against a deamon army or a tyranid army. Not a 4 DP, any tard can play army, but a hoard army. Go ahead wound on a six... Black knights get 2 shots, twin linked, ap2 guns also. That wound on a 2 most times. And have a grenade shot that will lower your Toughness. Wraiths, Paladins, Fiends... all Instant killed now by black knights....
Grav guns will murder the bigger tyranid gribblies and Demon Princes which is what you should be firing them at anyway.
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Post by: Jackal
Any tard can play army as you say, but only a real tard thinks a grav gun is useless against nids and the bigger daemons lol.
You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point.
You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for.
Thats like bitching because you cant kill a land raider with your bolter.
They are for armour and elite units, shooting anything less is just a waste.
If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn.
Again, weapons perform a specific role in each army.
Plasma's do feth all against AV13 and nothing to AV14.
Which means your having to rely on single shot per turn meltas.
Or your amazing grena.... oh, wait, they do nothing to armour.
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Post by: jamin484
 Jackal wrote:Any tard can play army as you say, but only a real tard thinks a grav gun is useless against nids and the bigger daemons lol.
You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point.
You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for.
Thats like bitching because you cant kill a land raider with your bolter.
They are for armour and elite units, shooting anything less is just a waste.
If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn.
Again, weapons perform a specific role in each army.
Plasma's do feth all against AV13 and nothing to AV14.
Which means your having to rely on single shot per turn meltas.
Or your amazing grena.... oh, wait, they do nothing to armour.
Och wheesht wee man, your banter is rubbish. Black knights command squad still gets 4++(PFG) then 5+ ( FNP) against ignore cover shooting then your riptide dies. And that is provided you go first, because if you don't, against RW, your riptide dies. Furthermore the vaunted WS command sqaud with grav guns dies even easier to the situation you described becasue they don't have a PFG.
Back under your bridge pal, trolling is only acceptable when its funny. 
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Post by: Tsilber
Jackal wrote:Any tard can play army as you say, but only a real tard thinks a grav gun is useless against nids and the bigger daemons lol.
You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point.
You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for.
Thats like bitching because you cant kill a land raider with your bolter.
They are for armour and elite units, shooting anything less is just a waste.
If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn.
Again, weapons perform a specific role in each army.
Plasma's do feth all against AV13 and nothing to AV14.
Which means your having to rely on single shot per turn meltas.
Or your amazing grena.... oh, wait, they do nothing to armour.
If you are making your comment towards me...
You prove my point of a tard who cant read i guess... Since you want to now act like a 3 year old and resort to making this personal..
I said Good luck with Grav guns against a Deamon army or tyranid army.."What good are those against a deamon army or a tyranid army. Not a 4 DP, any tard can play army, but a hoard army. " Lets focus on the deamon part for now....
I will elaborate and go slower for you. You see i am making reference to a Deamon hoard army, see how i said "Hoard army". That means a hoard, 4 deamon princes are not hoards. You see i said "not a 4 dp, any tard can play army", this means not a 4 deamon prince army.. Hence no deamon prince. I can only assume you see what i mean now, flamer.
Not once did i say Grav guns are useless against demon princes, hence why i said "good luck with 6's" . See this refers again, to a demon hoard army. Have you seen the book? Seekers, fiends, hounds, plague bearers, bloodletters.. There is quite a bit in that book, that is effective that has no armor save. Hence why i said you would need 6's and good luck.
Next time i suggest reading the post more carefully. And if you run 4 dp's and simply took offense to me making reference to a tard list... get over it.
Also, you make reference, "You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point, You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for. "
... and if the army is consistent of only basic troops? I assume you mean units with little to no save. Like a Deamon horde army... What happens when you face that? Are you suggesting you dont fire the guns at all? That just seems like a waste...
you also say " If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn."
ONCE AGAIN, you must of missed when i said you get FNP basically army wide. And since you are T5, and a rip tide can only get to str9 ... you would get the FNP save. You also must of missed i said you can get power field generators. See those give 4++ invuls to anyone within 3". You should take a closer look at the dark angels book, or again... read comments that are written more completely.
Or you can keep typing "what if scenarios" , that are inaccurate and simply making you look foolish.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mythantor wrote:I keep hearing about grav guns... What good are those against a deamon army or a tyranid army. Not a 4 DP, any tard can play army, but a hoard army. Go ahead wound on a six... Black knights get 2 shots, twin linked, ap2 guns also. That wound on a 2 most times. And have a grenade shot that will lower your Toughness. Wraiths, Paladins, Fiends... all Instant killed now by black knights....
Grav guns will murder the bigger tyranid gribblies and Demon Princes which is what you should be firing them at anyway.
This i agree with, and i understand your point. But any range you get these into, if someone where to use a DP or a big Tyrannid MC you are now in charge range for any of their beast/cavalry units. 2 grav guns on a bike squad is what 6 shots? You would hit once if the dp was in the air, if you ground it first or shoot at a ground mc, you would hit it 4 times and wound 3 times. It would make 1 invul save and if DP consider the greater reward to reroll invuls, or 4+ fnp.
Now the faq for a command squad to have 5 grav guns has a much better chance. But again, you may kill one dp (if it is fielded), but you are surely dead by any counter charge.
Whats the big grav gun on the Devs? that has 5 shots and twin linked, 24 inch range. Much better odds. But i think this main topic was about grav guns on bikes vs black knights, which have twin linked shots so will hit more. But in the end will still be in the threat range of any counter charge unit.
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Post by: Tiger9gamer
Wow. This seems to have really gotten out of hand...
Both are good units when used right!
65784
Post by: Mr.Omega
jamin484 wrote: Jackal wrote:Any tard can play army as you say, but only a real tard thinks a grav gun is useless against nids and the bigger daemons lol.
You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point.
You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for.
Thats like bitching because you cant kill a land raider with your bolter.
They are for armour and elite units, shooting anything less is just a waste.
If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn.
Again, weapons perform a specific role in each army.
Plasma's do feth all against AV13 and nothing to AV14.
Which means your having to rely on single shot per turn meltas.
Or your amazing grena.... oh, wait, they do nothing to armour.
Och wheesht wee man, your banter is rubbish. Black knights command squad still gets 4++(PFG) then 5+ ( FNP) against ignore cover shooting then your riptide dies. And that is provided you go first, because if you don't, against RW, your riptide dies. Furthermore the vaunted WS command sqaud with grav guns dies even easier to the situation you described becasue they don't have a PFG.
Back under your bridge pal, trolling is only acceptable when its funny.
You're forgetting that the configuration you describe costs somewhere in the region of 400-500 points with a Shroud, PFG Libby on Bike, BK's, and SOD. And that's just to protect 5 guys, who still die like pansies to an FMC anyway.
A BCSGG squad costs 210 points, and can also take an Apothecary over one Grav Gun for a 5+ FNP. Yeah, it may not be a 4++, but your entire army doesn't crumble when it dies and it doesn't cost double the amount with 20% less effectiveness.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Tsilber wrote: Jackal wrote:Any tard can play army as you say, but only a real tard thinks a grav gun is useless against nids and the bigger daemons lol.
You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point.
You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for.
Thats like bitching because you cant kill a land raider with your bolter.
They are for armour and elite units, shooting anything less is just a waste.
If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn.
Again, weapons perform a specific role in each army.
Plasma's do feth all against AV13 and nothing to AV14.
Which means your having to rely on single shot per turn meltas.
Or your amazing grena.... oh, wait, they do nothing to armour.
If you are making your comment towards me...
You prove my point of a tard who cant read i guess... Since you want to now act like a 3 year old and resort to making this personal..
I said Good luck with Grav guns against a Deamon army or tyranid army.."What good are those against a deamon army or a tyranid army. Not a 4 DP, any tard can play army, but a hoard army. " Lets focus on the deamon part for now....
I will elaborate and go slower for you. You see i am making reference to a Deamon hoard army, see how i said "Hoard army". That means a hoard, 4 deamon princes are not hoards. You see i said "not a 4 dp, any tard can play army", this means not a 4 deamon prince army.. Hence no deamon prince. I can only assume you see what i mean now, flamer.
Not once did i say Grav guns are useless against demon princes, hence why i said "good luck with 6's" . See this refers again, to a demon hoard army. Have you seen the book? Seekers, fiends, hounds, plague bearers, bloodletters.. There is quite a bit in that book, that is effective that has no armor save. Hence why i said you would need 6's and good luck.
Next time i suggest reading the post more carefully. And if you run 4 dp's and simply took offense to me making reference to a tard list... get over it.
Also, you make reference, "You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point, You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for. "
... and if the army is consistent of only basic troops? I assume you mean units with little to no save. Like a Deamon horde army... What happens when you face that? Are you suggesting you dont fire the guns at all? That just seems like a waste...
you also say " If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn."
ONCE AGAIN, you must of missed when i said you get FNP basically army wide. And since you are T5, and a rip tide can only get to str9 ... you would get the FNP save. You also must of missed i said you can get power field generators. See those give 4++ invuls to anyone within 3". You should take a closer look at the dark angels book, or again... read comments that are written more completely.
Or you can keep typing "what if scenarios" , that are inaccurate and simply making you look foolish.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mythantor wrote:I keep hearing about grav guns... What good are those against a deamon army or a tyranid army. Not a 4 DP, any tard can play army, but a hoard army. Go ahead wound on a six... Black knights get 2 shots, twin linked, ap2 guns also. That wound on a 2 most times. And have a grenade shot that will lower your Toughness. Wraiths, Paladins, Fiends... all Instant killed now by black knights....
Grav guns will murder the bigger tyranid gribblies and Demon Princes which is what you should be firing them at anyway.
This i agree with, and i understand your point. But any range you get these into, if someone where to use a DP or a big Tyrannid MC you are now in charge range for any of their beast/cavalry units. 2 grav guns on a bike squad is what 6 shots? You would hit once if the dp was in the air, if you ground it first or shoot at a ground mc, you would hit it 4 times and wound 3 times. It would make 1 invul save and if DP consider the greater reward to reroll invuls, or 4+ fnp.
Now the faq for a command squad to have 5 grav guns has a much better chance. But again, you may kill one dp (if it is fielded), but you are surely dead by any counter charge.
Whats the big grav gun on the Devs? that has 5 shots and twin linked, 24 inch range. Much better odds. But i think this main topic was about grav guns on bikes vs black knights, which have twin linked shots so will hit more. But in the end will still be in the threat range of any counter charge unit.
The only thing these 'Hoard' armies are accomplishing is hoarding overrated effectiveness.
But otherwise:
1) Twinlinked Plasma Talons are less effective than Grav Guns against 2+ and 3+ saves in all instances, hands down. I did the math on the last page, it takes 7 plasma talons minimum to have more devastating firepower than a BCSGG with 5 GG's. And you're still only half as effective at range if you're within 9''.
2) You're saying that against certain armies and very specific units Grav Guns have no use (which is inherent because its not their role to combat those units, as others have said) and then you're also saying that we're coming up with 'what if' scenarios. Think of it this way, at a tournament right now if you do at least moderately well there is a very good chance you'll be playing at least one Serpent Spam or Tau list with Riptides.
3) Its not FNP army wide unless you huddle every unit within 6'' of another unit. Practically speaking, against a number of opponent's that's going to be suicide and there will be many reasons why you will not want to do that.
4) If the enemy army is consistent with low armour save basic troops and has not a single DP you laugh in their face. That's just as weird and bad a scenario for your 42 point BK's that only gain the benefit of wounding on 2's over their bolters, and still kill themselves with every 1 in 20~ or so shots.
5) Don't take blind guesses at what would happen to support an argument. Use maths and common sense. BK's are going to be a lot closer than GG Bikers against DP's and FMC's, and they're going to get slaughtered just as easily most of the time. Plus, they're not all bundled in one nice neat tight area.
I'm getting a bit weary of this thread so I'm going to come to a few conclusions:
- RW isn't inferior to the point of being uncompetitive compared to KWS. It isn't however superior in every way, and they both have very good merits for being run independently.
- RW and KWS work well together, more than anything else.
-BK's fulfill the role of a versatile shock unit, but aren't as good spammed as BCSGG bikers because through spamming the latter accomplishes the goal (slaughtering nasty MC's and hard infantry) a fair amount better.
Also guys, please drop the name calling.
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Post by: Tsilber
1) hurray for math hammer... I was speaking of models with no armor save. Volume of fire twin linked. 12 plasma gun shots rerolling hits Vs 15 grav shots. I understand 15 grav shots are better at selective targets, never debated that. But plasma shots are more effective for most things you see on a table.
2) Id love to face a tau list, or serpent spam again. I do very well against these internet, cookie cutter list. Frankly im not impressed by them. But if those list went first, grav units are done, so would black knight units be. 48" range. no bike could get close. Best chance is to scout and go first.
3) You are wrong on the FNP within 6"... Im starting to think i am imagining the banner i keep referring to.... Anyway Dark angels can have up to 3 command squads with fnp if they like ( 4 if points allowed). Or they can have simply 1 banner giving all units within 12" fnp. Pretty easy to mix units and get every unit within range, not huddling with in 6". and still set yourself up for future tactics and move effectively across the board.
4) again, not sure of your play level. and "without the risk of sounding like an ass"....the fact you would write an army off the minute you saw it fielded must mean you are either a sheer pro at this game, or over confident internet warrior who cant play. I play without any dp.. However In a single dp list. Id just reserve him and fly him on away from all the grav gun or plasma nastiness. The rest of the army of Deamons can effectively handle the board. 20 seekers, 20 flesh hounds, 9 plague drones, to name a few units, are all more effective than a single DP of equal cost. But this is neither here nor their... Fact remain Grav guns are useless against 90% of the deamons. (sure they are not meant for them, but a good Deamon player will never let those grav guns near a DP... so your choices of targets would be "no armor save, 5++ deamon units.
5) no idea what your talking about here.. but I dont rely on math hammer... math hammer armies never work nor do the scenarios in a game. Math cant account for play style, play level, combinations, and set ups. Not to mention crap or Godlike dice.
Are Grav guns better at select targets, sure. Are plasma better all around, i would say yes.
Grav guns can never ever Instant kill anything. Plasma Guns can with the genades the units get.
Do space marine bikes have anything to help on the way in to charge? not really, do dark angels? YES the special grenades. ( I dont buy for one second, that units that are multi effective, like shooting and hand to hand, are terrible. 4 attacks on the charge + rad or stasis grenade is pretty damn good)
Both can attach IC's that have eternal warrior, both can get hit and run.
But as for winning a game on objectives. Do space marine bikes who are troops have anything to help them against ignores cover ap 3? NO. Do Dark angels troop bikes? YES.
Sorry man, space marine bikes compared to Dark angel bikes. over all, effectiveness and survivability. Dark angels win mate.
Back to the main Topic of why this was started. Dark Angels are still very much effective. lots of tricks and tactics. Lots of Synergy. The New Space marines book is Awesome, but it did not knock Dark Angels out of the game.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Tsilber wrote:1) hurray for math hammer... I was speaking of models with no armor save. Volume of fire twin linked. 12 plasma gun shots rerolling hits Vs 15 grav shots. I understand 15 grav shots are better at selective targets, never debated that. But plasma shots are more effective for most things you see on a table.
Not really. MC's, 2+ armour saves and 3+ armour saves account for a lot of what you see. Against hordes (which I'm not joking about as being overrated) you switch to TL bolters, and kill on 3's or 4's, probably the former anyway.
12 PG shots means either A) you're not taking RW GLs, which you don't get to boast about if you're not using or B) you're using a unit that's about 100 points or so more expensive.
Please state numbers for every calculation and statement of that sort.
2) Id love to face a tau list, or serpent spam again. I do very well against these internet, cookie cutter list. Frankly im not impressed by them. But if those list went first, grav units are done, so would black knight units be. 48" range. no bike could get close. Best chance is to scout and go first.
Scout behind LOS breakers, outflank, use common sense, you can avoid being mullered by those armies. Go read the tournament results for NOVA open and the recent one in the UK with loads of guys where there were 7~ Eldar players in the top 15.
3) You are wrong on the FNP within 6"... Im starting to think i am imagining the banner i keep referring to.... Anyway Dark angels can have up to 3 command squads with fnp if they like ( 4 if points allowed). Or they can have simply 1 banner giving all units within 12" fnp. Pretty easy to mix units and get every unit within range, not huddling with in 6". and still set yourself up for future tactics and move effectively across the board.
Yes, but SOD is basically a no brainer choice anyway and taking 3 FNP banners isn't the most advisable course of action at all when you weigh in points consumption and inefficiency and the fact that in order to survive against small arms (a 3+ and a 5+ FNP is still susceptible to small arms) you'll probably want to turbo boost to get that safe 2+ cover.
4) again, not sure of your play level. and "without the risk of sounding like an ass"....the fact you would write an army off the minute you saw it fielded must mean you are either a sheer pro at this game, or over confident internet warrior who cant play.
Uh, ok whatever you completely missed the point of my post and carried over your insult from retaliating against Jackal because I pointed out that your post would be easier to read with better grammar. That's not meant to be offensive. That's a friendly tip.
I play without any dp.. However In a single dp list. Id just reserve him and fly him on away from all the grav gun or plasma nastiness.
At which point he gets grounded and point blanked with fire from the bulk of your army.
The rest of the army of Deamons can effectively handle the board. 20 seekers, 20 flesh hounds, 9 plague drones, to name a few units, are all more effective than a single DP of equal cost. But this is neither here nor their... Fact remain Grav guns are useless against 90% of the deamons. (sure they are not meant for them, but a good Deamon player will never let those grav guns near a DP... so your choices of targets would be "no armor save, 5++ deamon units.
Its still just one army, and DP's are exceptionally common anyway. 'X player would do it better and avoid Y' doesn't constitute much of an argument at all and when the unit in question only works when you get in close proximity, its a straight up fallacy. GGB's also have a 30'' threat range (12'' movement + 18'' range GG's) so unless its on the other side of a 6x4 board you're almost always within a turn's range.
5) no idea what your talking about here.. but I dont rely on math hammer... math hammer armies never work nor do the scenarios in a game. Math cant account for play style, play level, combinations, and set ups. Not to mention crap or Godlike dice.
People who do not play with regard for Mathhammer are the sort of people that footslog Marines and say 'hey, I don't care if your army is statistically set up to annihilate mine, I'm just going to count on you rolling abysmally, and me rolling 6's on every run result'. I've seen people who actually hold that mindset.
Fact of the matter is, in any game of chance on average, it is the better choice to take the choice with the highest probability of occuring. This is a basic principle of 40k. Mathhammer armies do work.
Math-hammer can be used to account for playstyle of your opponent by looking at averages across the board.
Play level is irrelevant during list building. You can only take a rough guess at any time so dwelling on it is pointless- you can't help it.
Math-hammer can factor in defensive combinations such as FNP and armour saves, and whatnot easily, as well as your own one-two punch combo effectiveness.
Set up of your opponent is purely down to circumstance, and you don't need a calculator to figure out that 12'' deployment + 24'' movement + scout and 18'' range results in greater than a 48'' threat range in a first turn alpha strike against ones you can expect like gunlines.
People who rely on crap or godlike dice to win their every battle tend not to do well at 40k.
Are Grav guns better at select targets, sure. Are plasma better all around, i would say yes.
Well you're mathematically and statistically out of favour.
Grav guns can never ever Instant kill anything. Plasma Guns can with the genades the units get.
The grenades you didn't take in your unit with 12 plasma talon shots. Instant killing is a nice niche, but it doesn't always occur (remember, crap dice, you can't use averages) and I'd argue that 20% more effective firepower against the majority of what you do see is worth it, especially for killing units like Riptides where if they don't die you're potentially losing a handful of models.
Do space marine bikes have anything to help on the way in to charge? not really, do dark angels? YES the special grenades. ( I dont buy for one second, that units that are multi effective, like shooting and hand to hand, are terrible. 4 attacks on the charge + rad or stasis grenade is pretty damn good)
3-5 dead MEQ. Average, naff when compared to most CC units of the same points bracket. Anything BK's can charge that would beat them is the sort of thing KWS wouldn't charge anyway, and anything they can charge is the sort of thing KWS could probably get away with charging too. Plus, at the end of the day you've got hit and run on both units.
Both can attach IC's that have eternal warrior, both can get hit and run.
But as for winning a game on objectives. Do space marine bikes who are troops have anything to help them against ignores cover ap 3? NO. Do Dark angels troop bikes? YES.
As I've already established the probability of getting that bonus against the ignores cover weapons on every unit is unlikely, KWS get an extra bike squad anyway and for all the common occurrences of ignores cover are they do not come in large batches most of the time. It is often hard to achieve the result, and your opponent isn't going to wipe off all your bikes in one turn using them unless you make grave tactical errors. Outflanking assures your unit will survive against any army that doesn't have interceptor, which you can avoid using LOS anyway.
Sorry man, space marine bikes compared to Dark angel bikes. over all, effectiveness and survivability. Dark angels win mate.
Next time try not to come to this conclusion by breaking a basic tenet of 40k and using leaps of logic that make little to no sense, disregarding any strengths of the opposition.
PS, when you have to start a sentence with "without risk of sounding like an ASS", chances are you are sounding like such.
P.S, you look like you are ten years old when you take a friendly tip as an insult and essentially say 'hurr durr leaps of logic I'm right you're wrong case closed'. This is not how you debate.
Back to the main Topic of why this was started. Dark Angels are still very much effective. lots of tricks and tactics. Lots of Synergy. The New Space marines book is Awesome, but it did not knock Dark Angels out of the game.
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Post by: VardenV2
The thing people seem to be forgetting here is that against everything that isn't an MC, plasma is better when comapring equal shots. grav gets more shots and that helps bring down bigger targets. That's really the only difference to me.
The other thing is that the knights are way better at wounding in cc. They are not a dedicated cc unit, but the point is that they never get hit back. The shoot, maybe don't kill the MC but it is now -1T, -1I, -1WS etc. Bikes hammer of wrath (wounding easier now) and most likely hit first if not simultaneously, str 5 and rending. After all that I would assume that riptide or w/e is dead. It only has to fail 1-2 saves and it's down because the plasma whittled it away. Now my Knights consolidate and slingshot around cover or towards the next unit they want to go kill.
Knights are a "better" unit for almost everything but the grav guns seem to be much better at the monster hunting role. However, the knights are more expensive, so you get what you pay for.
- VardenV2
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Post by: Tsilber
Man you truly are hypocritical, "dont call names", "not trying to be an ass"... not to mention your acting like "agree with what i say or i will talk circles around you and try to bury you with meaningless banter"...
Try to stick to the topic.. I could go back and forth with you on this But surely cant win an argument with a pro player who can look at a board and win. And also assume to know what is going to happen each turn and each time he picks up the dice. (NOTE: This was sarcasm, im thinking more along the lines of that "over confident internet warrior who cant play" i mentioned earlier.
NOW try to stop flaming so much....
Back to the topic. Lets debate Grav Vs. Plasma.
5 RW Command 4 plasma 1 grenade 1 apothecary 230 points Vs 5 SM Command, 4 gravs, 1 apothecary. 210 points
Taking into account losing a model per turn, full games length.
AV 10. plasma, hands down, has better chance to destroy with less shots.
AV 11 plasma
AV 12 Plasma
AV 13 HP3, Plasma would need 3 6's to destroy, Grav gun would need 2 6's. I guess Grav guns
AV 14 plasma cant touch. Grav Gun wins hands down.
Armor 3+ T4 with single wound. 12 grav shots = 8 hits = 5.X wounds. 8 plasma twin linked = 7 hits = 6 wounds.
plasma Wins.
Armor 3+ with T4 multi wound. Plasma Wins, specially if -t Grenade hits.
Armor 3 with T5, plasma wins
Armor 3 with T6, Plasma wins (grenade lowers T to a 5 so plasma still wounds on 2's)
Armor 3, with T7 or T8. Grav wins.
Armor 2, with t4. Grav wins
Armor 2, with t4 multi wounds. Plasma wins with the grenade reducing T.
Armor 2 with T5, Grav
Armor 2 with T6 Grav
Armor 2 with T7 Grav
Armor 4, 5, 6 or no armor. Regardless of toughness (up to an 8) Plasma wins
Assaulting. The RW will have the upper hand on majority of targets as it will reduce the WS and I, or the toughness of the Enemy it assaults.
Being assaulted, grav Command unit takes 12 shots, hits twice. Ravenwing unit takes 8 shots hits twice. Tied.
As for combat, ravenwing command have rending hammers as well...
So decide as you see fit i guess.
Scenarios Grav wins: 6-7
Scenarios Plasma unit wins : 13-14
And yes you could say "well Grav guns are not meant for that or plasma is not meant for that". Fact is you have a far better chance of success if you can adapt to any and all situations... This rule applies to everything in life. Lets face it, unless you are someone who can assume to know everything is going to happen before it does... Games will sometimes not go the way you planned, units you wanted to shoot at might not be available. In most games against good players, you will not get that match up you want, you will not get your opponent to fall for each of your traps... Imporvise, Adapt, overcome. And RW plasma has a better over all chance.
So as i said before Sorry man, space marine bikes compared to Dark angel bikes. over all, effectiveness and survivability. Dark angels win mate.
"Next time try not to come to this conclusion by breaking a basic tenet of 40k and using leaps of logic that make little to no sense, disregarding any strengths of the opposition"
Was my break down above good enough for you or are you going to keep making lonnnngggg drawnnnn outtt boring remarks that require me to explain things in extreme detail for those that are slower...
But again, Dark Angels are still very effective and competitive.
EDIT: all my edits were to come up with different scenerios for the 2 squads. Please feel free to come up with some, and add em. Maybe this should of started its own discussion,.
EDIT: correction made on AV 13
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Post by: Mr.Omega
Tsilber wrote:Man you truly are hypocritical, "dont call names", "not trying to be an ass"... not to mention your acting like "agree with what i say or i will talk circles around you and try to bury you with meaningless banter"...
Hypocritical?
Ok, whatever. If you're too stubborn to accept that I'm not trying to perpetrate any nastiness against you and have a reasonable, adult and mature debate then fine.
Try to stick to the topic.. I could go back and forth with you on this But surely cant win an argument with a pro player who can look at a board and win. And also assume to know what is going to happen each turn and each time he picks up the dice. (NOTE: This was sarcasm, im thinking more along the lines of that "over confident internet warrior who cant play" i mentioned earlier.
NOW try to stop flaming so much....
But the entirety of the above paragraph constitutes Ad Hominem wherein you have insulted me and implied I am too big headed to realize that your opinion is so magnanimously better. Do you not realize how that is a double case of irony?
I am using logic, maths and reason to attempt to debate with you. I am not claiming to be a pro, just because I use these concepts does not mean I am trying to imitate a pro.
Back to the topic. Lets debate Grav Vs. Plasma.
5 RW Command 4 plasma 1 grenade 1 apothecary 230 points Vs 5 SM Command, 4 gravs, 1 apothecary. 210 points
You haven't taken a standard, so your list isn't competitive full stop, and you've no FNP banner, so the rest of your army is inferior to KWS.
Taking into account losing a model per turn, full games length.
AV 10. plasma, hands down, has better chance to destroy with less shots.
AV 11 plasma
AV 12 Plasma
Except KWS pulls 1.667 (if you roll two sixes its an auto-wreck) and average immobilized, at the range of 18'' compared to 9'' for RW, wherein if they are at 9'' they're getting 2.37 hull points off on AV10, or in other words a dead-never-taken Land Speeder. All three of these AV's are usually rare and usually cheap units with no real significance anyway, and your ability to dedicate the unit is more circumstantial because of risk and range, as well as the fact that you're taking a standard.
AV 13 HP3, Plasma would need 3 6's to destroy, Grav gun would need 2 6's. I guess Grav guns
AV 14 plasma cant touch. Grav Gun wins hands down.
Armor 3+ T4 with single wound. 12 grav shots = 8 hits = 5.X wounds. 8 plasma twin linked = 7 hits = 6 wounds.
plasma Wins.
5.926 wounds on plasma, 5.333 on Grav Guns. You exchange .6 of a wound and Grav Guns have double effective range.
Armor 3 with T6, Plasma wins (grenade lowers T to a 5 so plasma still wounds on 2's)
Circumstantial. You've probably got at best a 50:50 chance of pulling off -1 T on an MCl with one GL. Also, concussive lowers the initiative of said MC to be creamed in combat by another unit. Also, you're still not killing it in one turn outright if it has any kind of invulnerable save like a 5++ meaning whereas BK's are comprehensively screwed being within 9'', GG bikers are not.
Armor 3, with T7 or T8. Grav wins.
Armor 2, with t4. Grav wins
Armor 2, with t4 multi wounds. Plasma wins with the grenade reducing T.
Circumstantial. T4 with multi-wounds is also usually an alpha strike unit, therefore meaning unless your opponent is thick he won't place them near your BK's and even at that they're quite rare altogether.
Armor 2 with T5, Grav
Armor 2 with T6 Grav
Armor 2 with T7 Grav
Armor 4, 5, 6 or no armor. Regardless of toughness (up to an 8) Plasma wins
Easily dealt with bolters anyway that are just wounding on 3's instead of 2's, and you get extra range.
Assaulting. The RW will have the upper hand on majority of targets as it will reduce the WS and I, or the toughness of the Enemy it assaults.
Well, you completely ignored me saying this last time, so I'm only going to say it again - anything that RW can attack and emerge out on top, KWS can probably get away with charging too, and both have hit and run and can escape being tarpitted. So CC is a moot point.
Being assaulted, grav Command unit takes 12 shots, hits twice. Ravenwing unit takes 8 shots hits twice. Tied.
As for combat, ravenwing command have rending hammers as well...
Which are naff.
So decide as you see fit i guess.
Scenarios Grav wins: 6-7
Scenarios Plasma unit wins : 13-14
And yes you could say "well Grav guns are not meant for that or plasma is not meant for that". Fact is you have a far better chance of success if you can adapt to any and all situations... This rule applies to everything in life. Lets face it, unless you are someone who can assume to know everything is going to happen before it does... Games will sometimes not go the way you planned, units you wanted to shoot at might not be available.
In most games against good players, you will not get that match up you want, you will not get your opponent to fall for each of your traps...
Getting your opponent to be dumb enough to put his vehicles, weak infantry and elite game winner infantry like broadsides and paladins within range to annihilated before they do anything is not something you can count on with a 9'' effective range. If your opponent holds them back within the last 6'' of the board (and that's probably what he will do if he's 'good') your talons are ineffective for a turn, and you can't charge anyway because you scouted.
Grav Guns however are considerably more likely because they have an extra 9'' effective range. And multiple units have them, not just the special snowflake command squad.
Imporvise, Adapt, overcome. And RW plasma has a better over all chance.
I don't know how you managed to say 'Pfft real players don't rely on math-hammer' and now suddenly 'pfft KWS is worse because of averages' and having completely forgot your previous position was 'you need to consider tactics, circumstance, set up' which uh, you completely ignore here.
Fact of the matter is, double range for effective fire makes a huge difference. You choose an incredibly favourable BKCS without a standard that would never be taken by any sensible player. In addition that BKCS has to keep itself concealed from the bulk of enemy fire or else your list crumbles.
"Next time try not to come to this conclusion by breaking a basic tenet of 40k and using leaps of logic that make little to no sense, disregarding any strengths of the opposition"
Was my break down above good enough for you or are you going to keep making lonnnngggg drawnnnn outtt boring remarks that require me to explain things in extreme detail for those that are slower...
So I'm 'slower' now. Is the irony completely lost on you? This is how debate works. You don't get to post a long list of reasons and unequivocally emerge out on top, disregarding all others.
But again, Dark Angels are still very effective and competitive.
EDIT: all my edits were to come up with different scenerios for the 2 squads. Please feel free to come up with some, and add em. Maybe this should of started its own discussion,.
EDIT: correction made on AV 13
None of your points are remaining consistent - in the last post you banged on about how FNP banners single handedly is enough reason for RW to be better than KWS, yet now you're not even factoring it in and you've completely forgotten it.
You say 'won't fall for your traps' when RW is the one that is less flexible to your opponent being the wiser, because the range matters, oh does it matter.
You're not just getting Grav Guns on BCS, you're getting them on a few of your bike squads as well, and RW still only has slightly better luck against slightly more threatening targets which are overall rarer.
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Post by: Volkov
I am going to try to take this thread in an entirely new direction but I realize I am jumping into a snake pit here...
To me, Ravenwing are not a bike army. I've played Ravenwing as my main army for something like 16 years and in all that time I really couldn't care less about bikes. So why do I play Ravenwing? And more importantly why are Ravenwing still better than White Scars? THE LAND SPEEDERS! My standard 1850 list has 8 landspeeders. I have always played as the bikes in a support role to the speeders. In the good old days of the Dark Angel 3rd edition codex. Ravenwing had no variety at all. Attack bikes only came with multi meltas, and land speeders only came with assault cannons and heavy bolters. Typhoons (as terrible as they were back then) weren't a codex option. It was also written into the fluff that bikes hunted tanks and speeders hunted infantry. So that is exactly how I played them. Fast forward to today, thats still how I play them.
Standard of devastation...that's that weird bolter salvo one right. I wouldn't know I never take it. Why would I when I use my bikes as nothing more than melta-gun delivery systems. Scouting/outflanking delivery systems. 65 points for a piece of wargear? That's almost another land speeder!
Here is a rough cut list for my ravenwing army
Master in Landspeeder (I don't want to hear any crap about AP2 power weapons the landspeeder is the better option)
Librarian on bike with Power field Generator
Bike squad- 2 meltas guns, sarge with powerfist, attack bike with multi- melta, landspeeder with heavy bolter and assault cannon
Bike squad- 2 meltas guns, sarge with powerfist, attack bike with multi- melta, landspeeder with heavy bolter and assault cannon
Bike squad- 2 meltas guns, sarge with powersword, attack bike with multi- melta, landspeeder with heavy bolter and assault cannon.
Landspeeder squadron- 3 Speeders with assault cannons and heavy bolters
Darkshroud- No upgrades
10 Black Knights- 2 grenade launchers
I have played around with things like dropping the librarian/third bike squad to fit points but I work with that basis for the list
The first thing to mention about this list is that it plays like an eldar army. As much as I hate this word this list is all about Synergy. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned White scar bikes may be better, but Ravenwing armies are better, and that is the absolute truth. This army works by co-ordinated strikes and overwhelming the enemy through target saturation. Always combat squad your bikes into 2 units of 3 bikes. One group has the sergeant and the other has the 2 meltaguns. All told you have...17 seperate units the enemy has to target. With scout and turbo-boost you are in their face fast. No army I have fought/seen/heard of can deal with that many units in the course of a single turn. If you pull it off right they only get one turn of full effectiveness before you are seriously limiting their damage output. Combine this with the fact that most opponents are going to be shooting your black knight, darkshroud, Master blob turbo-boosting straight at them. Why would they ever target that lone little attack bike? Like I mentioned before any infantry not in a transport should be targeted by your landspeeders, while your attack bikes and meltagun bikes target enemy vehicles. The black knight primary role is to absorb fire. I have turbo-boosted through the enemy army just so I could still have the 2+ cover. The rest of my army was mopping him up just fine I really didn't need them to kill anything at that moment in time.
So yes. They can have the grav guns, I'll keep my 7 asault cannons...
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Post by: VardenV2
 Volkov wrote:I am going to try to take this thread in an entirely new direction but I realize I am jumping into a snake pit here...
To me, Ravenwing are not a bike army. I've played Ravenwing as my main army for something like 16 years and in all that time I really couldn't care less about bikes. So why do I play Ravenwing? And more importantly why are Ravenwing still better than White Scars? THE LAND SPEEDERS! My standard 1850 list has 8 landspeeders. I have always played as the bikes in a support role to the speeders. In the good old days of the Dark Angel 3rd edition codex. Ravenwing had no variety at all. Attack bikes only came with multi meltas, and land speeders only came with assault cannons and heavy bolters. Typhoons (as terrible as they were back then) weren't a codex option. It was also written into the fluff that bikes hunted tanks and speeders hunted infantry. So that is exactly how I played them. Fast forward to today, thats still how I play them.
Standard of devastation...that's that weird bolter salvo one right. I wouldn't know I never take it. Why would I when I use my bikes as nothing more than melta-gun delivery systems. Scouting/outflanking delivery systems. 65 points for a piece of wargear? That's almost another land speeder!
Here is a rough cut list for my ravenwing army
Master in Landspeeder (I don't want to hear any crap about AP2 power weapons the landspeeder is the better option)
Librarian on bike with Power field Generator
Bike squad- 2 meltas guns, sarge with powerfist, attack bike with multi- melta, landspeeder with heavy bolter and assault cannon
Bike squad- 2 meltas guns, sarge with powerfist, attack bike with multi- melta, landspeeder with heavy bolter and assault cannon
Bike squad- 2 meltas guns, sarge with powersword, attack bike with multi- melta, landspeeder with heavy bolter and assault cannon.
Landspeeder squadron- 3 Speeders with assault cannons and heavy bolters
Darkshroud- No upgrades
10 Black Knights- 2 grenade launchers
I have played around with things like dropping the librarian/third bike squad to fit points but I work with that basis for the list
The first thing to mention about this list is that it plays like an eldar army. As much as I hate this word this list is all about Synergy. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned White scar bikes may be better, but Ravenwing armies are better, and that is the absolute truth. This army works by co-ordinated strikes and overwhelming the enemy through target saturation. Always combat squad your bikes into 2 units of 3 bikes. One group has the sergeant and the other has the 2 meltaguns. All told you have...17 seperate units the enemy has to target. With scout and turbo-boost you are in their face fast. No army I have fought/seen/heard of can deal with that many units in the course of a single turn. If you pull it off right they only get one turn of full effectiveness before you are seriously limiting their damage output. Combine this with the fact that most opponents are going to be shooting your black knight, darkshroud, Master blob turbo-boosting straight at them. Why would they ever target that lone little attack bike? Like I mentioned before any infantry not in a transport should be targeted by your landspeeders, while your attack bikes and meltagun bikes target enemy vehicles. The black knight primary role is to absorb fire. I have turbo-boosted through the enemy army just so I could still have the 2+ cover. The rest of my army was mopping him up just fine I really didn't need them to kill anything at that moment in time.
So yes. They can have the grav guns, I'll keep my 7 asault cannons...
I really like this list. It has a very "old school" feel to it And I am striving for something similar. However, what do you do for anti-air? Do you just use the land speeders or black knights to saturate flyers? Or do you just ignore them by getting so close to the enemy / in combat it doesn't really matter?
I would like to bring up the topic of other DA units besides RW though. I realize they are probably the most competitive aspect of the codex still, but what other advantages do DA have over other codices? What about DW command squads? What about the venerable rule for Land Raiders? What about their independent characters and named characters vs those in other books? I'd like to think that many of those unique things are being overlooked at times.
Also, what about the quality of models etc vs the other marine chapters. I am admittedly biased, but I think that DA have some of the coolest looking models of all the space marine chapters and have a very distinct look on the battlefield. Thy may be lackluster in rules, but there are so many other parts to the hobby. To me, having a better looking army is already half the battle won When the store manager constantly takes pics of my Deathwing assaulting some chaos scum or defending a landing platform and posting them as 'highlights' of the day's events, it makes me feel proud of my DA, even if they are kinda meh. If nothing else, i manage to get a good rivalry going between me and my chaos friends at the local GW haha.
- VardenV2
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Post by: Volkov
I really like this list. It has a very "old school" feel to it And I am striving for something similar. However, what do you do for anti-air? Do you just use the land speeders or black knights to saturate flyers? Or do you just ignore them by getting so close to the enemy / in combat it doesn't really matter?
I usually just ignore them. I haven't fought them too often though. I usually can get out of their firing arc quickly and it dies the minute they switch to skimmer mode. I played a grey knight list with 2 stormravens and I killed every other model he had, so it came down to my landspeeders chasing them around with the assault cannons, and my master did gun one down, at which point he conceded.
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Post by: Tsilber
"None of your points are remaining consistent - in the last post you banged on about how FNP banners single handedly is enough reason for RW to be better than KWS, yet now you're not even factoring it in and you've completely forgotten it."
Man are you still not reading my post completely? Skimming through and then making rage responses?
Pick up the Dark Angels book and read it bud...
Never the less...
I decided to talk about 1 unit vs 1 unit, and trying to add substantial, real credence to this topic thread and the on going DEBATE of Grav guns vs. plasma talons on bike squads. In my side by side comparison the unit i use as an example did have FNP... Never the less the side by side comparison speaks for it self. The fact you can have the banner on top of what i listed only provides further evidence to my argument.
"Getting your opponent to be dumb enough to put his vehicles, weak infantry and elite game winner infantry like broadsides and paladins within range to annihilated before they do anything is not something you can count on with a 9'' effective range. If your opponent holds them back within the last 6'' of the board (and that's probably what he will do if he's 'good') your talons are ineffective for a turn, and you can't charge anyway because you scouted."
Deploy 12", scout 12", first turn move 12"... you are in range with 9" guns for the most part. Thats 44".... they would have to depl0y on their own board edge in most cases....
You said, T4 t5, t6, t7,t8,."Easily dealt with bolters anyway that are just wounding on 3's instead of 2's, and you get extra range".... we are doing a unit to unit comparison. We can "what if the army had"... all over. When Grav Guns cant do a better job at something than plasma stop using the" their are other weapons for that excuse"... FYI bolters do not wound t4 t5 t6 t7 or t8 on 3's... what edition are you playing?
You said anything Knights can assault and survive KWS can... sure maybe... But Knights have a better chance of killing stuff. The comparison is not a "i can survive like you and run away".. KWS do not have the grenades to lower WS or I or T. Black Knights could be hitting KWS on 3's and wounding on 4's. Also going before KWS. Knights also have Rending weapons... KWS would hit back on 4's and need 5's to wound, no rending... If you still think they are equal in H2H, not much more i can say to prove it to you....
BTW i never said Black knights were better just because of the FNP banner. I said IMO Dark Angels as a whole was better than Space marines because anything you can make troops in the space marine book still dies to a helldrake on 2+ or 3+. Dark Angels get a PFG, but more importantly its troops can have FNP (from the 12" bubble banner). You can also make termies troops...
Im not going to go in try to pick apart parts of your rebuttal and then twist things around, trying to say things like " well thats not what they do, or there is a different unit then that" . I am also not going to drag on with you on this. You have your views, i have mine i guess. You did you math hammer, i resorted to a little of my own since YOU MADE A GOOD POINT on using it (see i gave you a compliment their, dont be little me because i first said i dont rely on it and then took your advice on examining it more)... My hammer shows Black Knights/plasma works better in twice the scenarios/match ups than KWS with Grav guns.
@ VOLKOV
I like the list man. That is a lot of land speeders and lots of assault cannon fire.
Why Sammy in the speeder though? I would be to scared of him getting focus fired riding solo. Though he does look tough, armor 14 right? And a 3 or 4+ cover save (i dont have my book in front of me?)
@VARDEN
Some of the other Great options in Dark angels. Is Deathwing assault. So DS termies (who can be troops) first turn. I always liked the idea of Azreal with 9 veterans in a drop pod. Half have combi meltas, half have combi flamers. First turn Azreal and his squad DS in, and then 2 units of termies right next to him.
I said earlier one of my favorite tourney list were triple LRC with a the dakka banner in one, and a big bike squad hiding behind them with a libby on a bike with PFG. Three LRC with venerable, armor 14, and 4+ invul was pretty fun.
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Post by: Mr.Omega
The irony is lost on you, then. This thread is not called 'what's better, BCSGG or BK's', granted the majority of the discussion has gone towards it but that is not what the primary objective of debate was at all.
You're the one that's twisting everything. You twist my positivity into insults and my analysis into missing the point, completely ignoring the fact that the post previously I speak of and the thread concerns the armies as a whole. You twisted the BCSBK's into a unit that would not be taken and then in that following post further twist it with 'this is only additional benefit by having the banner' but ignoring the cost and implications completely and instead of accepting or even providing a counter argument for using the unit, you're trying to shut down debate by taking a moral high ground that doesn't exist.
Deploy 12", scout 12", first turn move 12"... you are in range with 9" guns for the most part. Thats 44".... they would have to depl0y on their own board edge in most cases....
A) Only works when you go first, in an outflanking scenario on turn 2 your opponent can easily escape your realistic 18'' rapid fire full threat range, especially if bubble wrap units are used.
B) Considering there's about 2-3'' worth of models behind, you're left with about a realistic full rapid fire range of 41'' or worse on a sum of occasions.
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Post by: Tsilber
Mr.Omega wrote:The irony is lost on you, then. This thread is not called 'what's better, BCSGG or BK's', granted the majority of the discussion has gone towards it but that is not what the primary objective of debate was at all.
You're the one that's twisting everything. You twist my positivity into insults and my analysis into missing the point, completely ignoring the fact that the post previously I speak of and the thread concerns the armies as a whole. You twisted the BCSBK's into a unit that would not be taken and then in that following post further twist it with 'this is only additional benefit by having the banner' but ignoring the cost and implications completely and instead of accepting or even providing a counter argument for using the unit, you're trying to shut down debate by taking a moral high ground that doesn't exist.
Deploy 12", scout 12", first turn move 12"... you are in range with 9" guns for the most part. Thats 44".... they would have to depl0y on their own board edge in most cases....
A) Only works when you go first, in an outflanking scenario on turn 2 your opponent can easily escape your realistic 18'' rapid fire full threat range, especially if bubble wrap units are used.
B) Considering there's about 2-3'' worth of models behind, you're left with about a realistic full rapid fire range of 41'' or worse on a sum of occasions.
No i took your reasoning and logic, by using math hammer, and statistics, and also took the input of cost effectiveness, and showed a side by side unit comparison on possible scenarios you run into in the game. for 20 points difference I showed that Black Knight still come out ahead on twice the amount of scenarios.
.
When i used your "mathhammer", you ridicule me for now using it. "Hey you said you dont use math hammer, now that your equations are correct because you did use it, you're.. you're.. well you're a stinky head..." lol
When i make valid points of Plasma being superior in some cases. You simply said "well their are other guns for that".. Adding in what if scenarios and ignoring my side by side unit comparison.
When i tell you are wrong on certain thing. Like the threat range, you add things like. "Well that only work if X or only works is Y..." FYI: With such low leadership no Tau player is setting up on his own board edge...
When i showed possible equations for a side by side unit comparison, you still argue the points, desperately grasping for any lifeline to lend credence to your points of view. "well that's not what that unit is for", or " well if this were to happen then it only works with A, B, or C" ...
It is you who cant debate, cant accept substantial facts and evidence. It is you who declared he can look at a board and simply know the out come of a game, dismiss his opponents army at a glance. How ever it is you who also declared bolters can wound t4 t5 t6 t7 & t8 on 3's..... so...
I guess we cant have a debate, so carry on with the topic and we can argee to disagree on this particular subject. Im All done, i suggest you be also.
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Post by: VardenV2
@Tsilber
That triple LRc sounds ridiculous haha. It's fun but I can't really see it working too well most of the time. Maybe if they were full of regular tactical marines to benefit from the bolter banner? That would be one insane mid-field gun line.
I know how the DW assault works, I do play Dark Angels after all And yeah, it's really fun to do. I use a veteran pod with cypher gunslingr vets with two flamers + Azrael + Librarian. It's pretty cool and actually pretty powerful if used correctly. They are not the most points efficient but with the right divination powers + Azrael's Warlord for FNP on an objective they are one pain in the @$$ unit to remove haha. I usually send them suicide style at a mid field objective that my opponent wants and just deny it all game long. They end up throwing so much at that squad just to remove it Both the Khorne and Nurgle players hate that squad haha.
- VardenV2
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Post by: Volkov
@ VOLKOV
I like the list man. That is a lot of land speeders and lots of assault cannon fire.
Why Sammy in the speeder though? I would be to scared of him getting focus fired riding solo. Though he does look tough, armor 14 right? And a 3 or 4+ cover save (i dont have my book in front of me?)
The biggest reason for the master in the speeder is again target saturation. Most people that have played me know right quick BS5 twin linked assault cannons and heavy bolters are nothing to be sniffed at. So they rightly view it as a threat. But they also view the black knights as a threat, and the darkshroud as a threat. So that's 3 units that makes the enemy worry. And yes his AV14 with a 4++ constantly or a 3++ with the darkshroud gives him absurd survivability. So I want people to shoot him I like people shooting him. Because I find Ravenwing don't like anti tank weapons. Lascannons and missile launchers are not friends to the ravenwing. The master in speeder is the only unit capable of taking those weapons without darkshrouding turbo-boosting shenanigans.
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Post by: Tsilber
VardenV2 wrote:@Tsilber
That triple LRc sounds ridiculous haha. It's fun but I can't really see it working too well most of the time. Maybe if they were full of regular tactical marines to benefit from the bolter banner? That would be one insane mid-field gun line.
I know how the DW assault works, I do play Dark Angels after all And yeah, it's really fun to do. I use a veteran pod with cypher gunslingr vets with two flamers + Azrael + Librarian. It's pretty cool and actually pretty powerful if used correctly. They are not the most points efficient but with the right divination powers + Azrael's Warlord for FNP on an objective they are one pain in the @$$ unit to remove haha. I usually send them suicide style at a mid field objective that my opponent wants and just deny it all game long. They end up throwing so much at that squad just to remove it Both the Khorne and Nurgle players hate that squad haha.
- VardenV2
The 3 Land raider crusaders have enough bolters to benefit from the banner. (72 twin linked shots) The land raiders also have MM. About 295 each with the dozer blade and venerable.
The bike squad the librarian is in tries to hide behind the 3 LRC, but they have melta guns incase needed. As well as 4 twinlinked shot bolters.
So effectively you have the command squad in LR, if you took azreal or Belial you can put close combat terminator troops in each of the other lrc.
Can you imagine 4 LRC?
@ VOLKOV
Ahh i like that a lot. How do you get him to a 3+ cover? Jink is 5+, and then +1 for stealth from DS. Where is the plus 1 coming from? I dont have my dark angels book in front of me. Does Sam get skilled rider in the speeder or something?
Either way i like him in a speeder i might try him sometime.
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Post by: Volkov
@ VOLKOV
Ahh i like that a lot. How do you get him to a 3+ cover? Jink is 5+, and then +1 for stealth from DS. Where is the plus 1 coming from? I dont have my dark angels book in front of me. Does Sam get skilled rider in the speeder or something?
Either way i like him in a speeder i might try him sometime.
Turbo-boosting with the Darkshroud gives 3+ cover.
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Post by: Tsilber
..oh duh...of coarse lol.. I was thinking there was a way to get a 3++ and still shoot.
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Post by: jamin484
Tsilber wrote:..oh duh...of coarse lol.. I was thinking there was a way to get a 3++ and still shoot.
Take WS and ally in a skilled rider.
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Post by: Tsilber
jamin484 wrote:Tsilber wrote:..oh duh...of coarse lol.. I was thinking there was a way to get a 3++ and still shoot.
Take WS and ally in a skilled rider.
Dont think that would apply to Sammy on a speeder as he is now vehicle and wont be able to join squads... Unless their is a loophole, cause sammy on speeder in black knight squad would be funny (or attached to a WS squad)
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Post by: Volkov
Dont think that would apply to Sammy on a speeder as he is now vehicle and wont be able to join squads... Unless their is a loophole, cause sammy on speeder in black knight squad would be funny (or attached to a WS squad)
I m really having to wrack my brain on this one but I think he was listed as an independent character in the 3rd edition codex. But you can only join same unit type squads so he could only join land speeder squadrons. You also had landspeeder squadron command squads. An apothecary landspeeder...thats useful...
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Post by: TheLionOfTheForest
First of, Tsilber and Mr Omega, thank you for the heated exchange. It's nice that you are each passionate about your beliefs. Each of you raised some good points. Reading through your debate has given me a little more clarity on my own situation. I have some BA bikers I just stripped the paint off and wasn't sure if they were going to become DA or white scars. I think the whole Grav Gun > everything else argument is a little weak. It's target choice is too specific. I'll stick with the tried and true plasma.
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Post by: Practical
Yes. As a new player, this thread has been extremely informative because of the opposing viewpoints.
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Post by: Solosam47
This has really became bike vs bike argument, what about the rest of the armies choices?
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Post by: Big Blind Bill
It's been out for a few weeks now, and it's pretty obvious that C:SM has blown DA out of the water in almost every aspect.
The only competitive saving graces that DA retain are:
Cheap librarians with prescience.
Power Field Generators.
Standard of devastation.
Black knights.
The problem with this list, is that 3/4 can be taken and used effectively as allies, whilst taking better selections from another codex. A librarian on a bike with a command squad of black knights and a pfg comes in at a little over 300 points, which is pretty decent value for points.
I won't comment on the black knights vs grav gun command squad, both are good choices.
DA is still nice for fluffy DW armies, but the ravenwing has been totally out classed. Imo, DA are now best used as an allies selection to bring some extra tools to the table.
(I haven't included dark shroud here as there is so much anti-cover being thrown around now that they often do not make a large impact.)
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Post by: DJGietzen
I've been really loking at Ravenwing vs White Scars. Unfortunity Ravenwing are just more expensive to run, the advantage is the plasma spam and support units. The Ravenwing flyers are way more highbrow then the white scar one and if played correctly makes it feel like you are cheating. But this makes ravenwing expensive and difficult to run so not competative at all.
Looking at it from a casual perspective. I can run my ravenwing as whitescars, my deathwing as dark angels and cherry pick chapter tactics or dark angel grimm resolve for my generic stuff. Just have to figure out witch one or two I want to run. GW wins because they sold me two codexs instead of one, and I will be building models from both books.
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Post by: VardenV2
I have to admit but grim resolve on tacticals is actually a hindrance when compared to the other chapter tactics. I would basically jsut try and ally in some other chapters instead at this point unfortunately.
I think that the independent characters are still being overlooked. What about Azrael and Ezekiel. They are pretty cool.
DA are still the only 'standard' marines who can do terminators as troops. Not that big a deal as they are too expensive for what they are worth, but something nonetheless.
The new SM codex just shows me that, once again, the Dark Angels need to be wrapped in with the rest of the marines in order to be competitive at all. They are always the "test" codex and even fluff-wise, it makes no sense for the differing wargear. Why wouldn't DA get grav guns when 99% of the other chapters get them? Why don;t they get storm talons, or ravens, or sterngaurd etc? It's jsut sort of silly. By being their own book they are hurting as all of their unique stuff is generally worse than the standard SM stuff. It's disappointing, but luckily im not all about the win. I'm about having a cool army, and DA are still pretty cool in my opinion.
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Post by: dragqueeninspace
 Big Blind Bill wrote:It's been out for a few weeks now, and it's pretty obvious that C: SM has blown DA out of the water in almost every aspect.
The only competitive saving graces that DA retain are:
Cheap librarians with prescience.
Power Field Generators.
Standard of devastation.
Black knights.
The problem with this list, is that 3/4 can be taken and used effectively as allies, whilst taking better selections from another codex. A librarian on a bike with a command squad of black knights and a pfg comes in at a little over 300 points, which is pretty decent value for points.
I won't comment on the black knights vs grav gun command squad, both are good choices.
DA is still nice for fluffy DW armies, but the ravenwing has been totally out classed. Imo, DA are now best used as an allies selection to bring some extra tools to the table.
(I haven't included dark shroud here as there is so much anti-cover being thrown around now that they often do not make a large impact.)
I pretty much agree with this post.
The problem I have is that with most of the variants of the army I'm assembling I can make flat out better by scraping the DA iconography off and paying the GW codex tax again. I find myself changing the army composition just to justify paining my dudes green. I'm going to try a list with DW as troops not because i think it will be any good but because it keeps the illusion of "equal but different" instead of the more accurate "same but worse".
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Post by: Big Blind Bill
VardenV2 wrote:I have to admit but grim resolve on tacticals is actually a hindrance when compared to the other chapter tactics. I would basically jsut try and ally in some other chapters instead at this point unfortunately.
I think that the independent characters are still being overlooked. What about Azrael and Ezekiel. They are pretty cool.
DA are still the only 'standard' marines who can do terminators as troops. Not that big a deal as they are too expensive for what they are worth, but something nonetheless.
The new SM codex just shows me that, once again, the Dark Angels need to be wrapped in with the rest of the marines in order to be competitive at all. They are always the "test" codex and even fluff-wise, it makes no sense for the differing wargear. Why wouldn't DA get grav guns when 99% of the other chapters get them? Why don;t they get storm talons, or ravens, or sterngaurd etc? It's jsut sort of silly. By being their own book they are hurting as all of their unique stuff is generally worse than the standard SM stuff. It's disappointing, but luckily im not all about the win. I'm about having a cool army, and DA are still pretty cool in my opinion.
Ah yeah my bad, I totally forgot Azrael in my list. The other characters are totally forgettable, but Azrael is great.....again especially as an ally.
Using him to give an IG blob a 4++ save is a well known strategy for example.
The Ravenwing flyers are way more highbrow then the white scar one
If by 'highbrow' you mean disappointingly underpowered and over costed I would have to agree with you.
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Post by: Maelstrom808
Again, my biggest issue with DW is almost every character in terminator armor is stuck with the gimped weapon options of a power sword and storm bolter. Other than Belial and the DWK sgt, you can't even begin to think about adding a storm shield, lightning claw or thunder hammer to any character, effectively reducing them to not much more than ablative wounds.
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Post by: Volkov
DA is still nice for fluffy DW armies, but the ravenwing has been totally out classed. Imo, DA are now best used as an allies selection to bring some extra tools to the table.
I facepalmed reading this. Ravenwing are not outclassed. I have won every single game since the 6th editions codex came out. I used to have a win loss ratio of about 50% with the old codex. Ravenwing are meaner and dirtier than ever before. What did white scars really get +1 jink? difficult terrain ain't nothin' but a thang now that you get your armour saves when you fail. You get scout if you take the overwhelmingly lackluster HQ choice that is Khan. Give me sammael every day of the week. Khan is a scouts tax. Sammael is a straight up bad ass.
I just looked up the vaunted grav-gun command squad. Unless I am missing something you can only give them combi-grav weapons, or grav pistols...here I thought they get all got grav-guns.
And as I mentioned earlier Ravenwing are more than just bikes, I think of Ravenwing more analogous to a Dark eldar army than a codex space marines bike army. You don't leave Commorragh without raiders, you don't leave the Rock without Speeders. A crap ton of them
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Post by: Rune Stonegrinder
They are just fine and can still be competitive.
Try a White Scars and DA biker list, seems to me adding elements of both would be an awesome list.
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Post by: Big Blind Bill
Volkov wrote:DA is still nice for fluffy DW armies, but the ravenwing has been totally out classed. Imo, DA are now best used as an allies selection to bring some extra tools to the table.
I facepalmed reading this. Ravenwing are not outclassed. I have won every single game since the 6th editions codex came out. I used to have a win loss ratio of about 50% with the old codex. Ravenwing are meaner and dirtier than ever before. What did white scars really get +1 jink? difficult terrain ain't nothin' but a thang now that you get your armour saves when you fail. You get scout if you take the overwhelmingly lackluster HQ choice that is Khan. Give me sammael every day of the week. Khan is a scouts tax. Sammael is a straight up bad ass.
I just looked up the vaunted grav-gun command squad. Unless I am missing something you can only give them combi-grav weapons, or grav pistols...here I thought they get all got grav-guns.
And as I mentioned earlier Ravenwing are more than just bikes, I think of Ravenwing more analogous to a Dark eldar army than a codex space marines bike army. You don't leave Commorragh without raiders, you don't leave the Rock without Speeders. A crap ton of them
You won your games? Great. I never said DA are unusable. But I stand by what I said before, Ravenwing now come in 2nd when compared to a C: SM bike army in terms of competitiveness.
What did the basic white scar biker get over the RW besides being 6 points cheaper, with +1 jink, +1 HoW str, ignoring difficult terrain as well as access to grav guns....... lol. I don't need to justify myself here.
And these changes all come alongside other additions in the SM codex that are missing in codex DA.
Command squad got an FAQ. Check the GW website.
Finally, I couldn't care less if RW are more or less than just bikes. The thread is about where DA now stands competitively, which in the context of a bike army, seems to be firmly in 2nd place.
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Post by: Volkov
You won your games? Great. I never said DA are unusable. But I stand by what I said before, Ravenwing now come in 2nd when compared to a C:SM bike army in terms of competitiveness.
What did the basic white scar biker get over the RW besides being 6 points cheaper, with +1 jink, +1 HoW str, ignoring difficult terrain as well as access to grav guns....... lol. I don't need to justify myself here.
And these changes all come alongside other additions in the SM codex that are missing in codex DA.
I see ravenwing as extremely competitive. In a vacuum alot of units seem better than others. As for the other changes in the codex, sure, run centurions, and storm ravens, and sternguard and all those units that cripple dark angel self worth, but you are going to have to drop those superior white scar bikes to field them in which case it stops being a bike army.
Command squad got an FAQ. Check the GW website.
I knew I was missing something. I couldn't see what the hype was about before...but still mech guard are my other army so bring on the immobilizations to my stationary leman russes! At least plasma guns can easily pop me from the rear
Finally, I couldn't care less if RW are more or less than just bikes. The thread is about where DA now stands competitively, which in the context of a bike army, seems to be firmly in 2nd place.
And I couldn't care less if orks are more than just gretchin. I want to spam only one unit and complain another army can do it better than mine!
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Post by: Tsilber
Big Blind Bill wrote: The thread is about where DA now stands competitively, which in the context of a bike army, seems to be firmly in 2nd place.
Well, looking through this thread, many many many still think they are superior to White Scars. So in your opinion, which i respect, they are first and dark angels are 2nd.
In my opinion, Ravenwing is still superior. I dont mean to harp on this, but i cant seem to get past this either, space marine troop bikes die to ignores cover ap 3, hell drakes, riptides.... Dark Angels have a way to still get at least a FNP if not a 4++ from PFG. You need troops to win most games... 2-3 hell drake list destroy SM bike armies.
That being said, i think points have been made on both ends and now this thread is getting a little redundant. I am bowing out of this discussion, no hard feelings anyone, apologies to anyone i offended, i respect all of your positions and views.
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Post by: Martel732
I think DA suffer most from terrible fliers and anti-flier tech. Just my observations as a BA guy.
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Post by: UnadoptedPuppy
Martel732 wrote:I think DA suffer most from terrible fliers and anti-flier tech. Just my observations as a BA guy.
Which is why we have auto H&R. Helldrakes can't touch what they....can't touch.
This auto H&R also ensures the SoD is being used to its full capacity.
Double RWCS is still very competitive.
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Post by: Martel732
The problem with auto H+R is the assumption that there is something you actually want to be in CC with. That being said, I do have a marine/BA hybrid list with no AA that relies on bum rushing the deployment zone.
In the end, I don't think DA are that much worse off than any meq list right now. They are all inferior to Eldar/Tau/Demons.
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Post by: TheLionOfTheForest
Martel732 wrote:I think DA suffer most from terrible fliers and anti-flier tech. Just my observations as a BA guy.
This issue, while a pain in the arse, is a singular problem easily corrected with the additions of allies.
I think the SM codex is a nice solid codex, with plenty of flexibility and options. I still think ravenwing are better than white scars, although not by much (proably why this debate is so heated)
The SM codex by its very nature should be more tactical and flexible than any of the stand alone marine codecies. ( BA, DA, SW). SW have no fliers, DA fliers are crap, and BA have the "we pay %10 more than you for the same unit" tax.
H&R is nice.. it allows you to shoot up a unit, engage it, be protected from enemy fire during the enemies turn, then you can run and either rinse repeat or drive off 12+ inches for something else.
And yes Martel (Prophet of Doom :p) we are all standing in the shadow or Eldar/Tau/Demons... but then again, I like a challenge.
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Post by: Tiger9gamer
I feel DA suffers a little by being constrained to certain buffs (BoD, Darkshroud, PFG) that can be taken out fairly easily.
White scar units are more self contained, and work fine on thier own. Their weapons are more of the focus, and they don't relly on buffs and powers.
White scars is more "All for one" While the DA is more "one for all"
(dear lord i hope i got that right)
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Post by: UnadoptedPuppy
Martel732 wrote:The problem with auto H+R is the assumption that there is something you actually want to be in CC with.
What you don't want to be in CC with should already have been lit up by plasma talons and salvo bolters. And whatever I hit into probably has a T or WS and I modifier. This gives RW a pretty nice edge over WS, imo.
You're absolutely right about us in the shadows. I feel DA will grow into 6th as the remaining books are updated.
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Post by: Big Blind Bill
I knew I was missing something. I couldn't see what the hype was about before...but still mech guard are my other army so bring on the immobilizations to my stationary leman russes! At least plasma guns can easily pop me from the rear
It all comes down to how they clarify the rules for grav guns, that is, whether 2 rolls of a 6 cause 3 hull points of damage. If this is the case, then grav guns will be able to pop LR tanks from the front, 18 inches out, fairly efficiently.
I'm hoping grav guns get added to the DA dex in a later update, as this really shouldn't be a selling point of one chapter over another.
I feel DA will grow into 6th as the remaining books are updated.
I hoped this around the same time last year....then cover ignoring tau, and then updated eldar hit the selves, and I lost all hope.
I should clarify my position on the Ravewnwing. I think they are competitive. Even with tau and eldar lists in the meta, they can still be competitive.
However I expect in the future that there will be a shift in bike tournament players, from using DA, to using C: SM, as I believe they're overall the more competitive list.
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Post by: Volkov
It all comes down to how they clarify the rules for grav guns, that is, whether 2 rolls of a 6 cause 3 hull points of damage. If this is the case, then grav guns will be able to pop LR tanks from the front, 18 inches out, fairly efficiently.
I had to re-read the rules to understand how it could possibly be 3 hull points but now...Immobilization clearly states an extra hull point but the codex states it loses only a single hull point, which you wouldn't emphasize unless there exists a situation for more than one. Ambiguity reigns!
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Post by: Martel732
By RAW, it's actually pretty clear that the grav gun on the first hit will cause immobilization and a hull point. The second hit does the same thing. When you go to look up a second immobilization result, that's when you lose the additional hull point. It's a CRB rule, not a grav gun rule.
The whole cover thing with vehicles is a little more sketchy I think.
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Post by: JohnRonald1
This is how I feel.
I started playing around a year ago and I split the DV box with my friend, he went Tau (and now I know why. He has an incredibly Crisis suit OP list, and the expansion made it even more OP). I sold my CSM off to buy more DA. I know have close to 2000 pts of DA and I get rofl stomped anytime I try and play. The only way I can see as viable is to do a straight DW build but you gotta drop like, 500-600 bucks and even then you will buy like two command squads and two land raiders.
The only models that are powerful and useful for DA are 60-70 bucks. It's nuts.
I'm ready to switch to Eldar and just sell all my gak off. It sucks. I love DA, the lore is incredible, but they are so weak comparatively.
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Post by: En Excelsis
DA have a number of problems that exist outside the scope of the RW.
The moment their codex was released it had major flaws that were crippling when compared to the C:SM of that time (5e). It's even more lackluster when compared to the current C:SM.
Overall the DA are lacking in tactically viable wargear options for troops & Elites. Their HQs have access to perfectly legitimate wargear.
Both DA Flyers are laughably useless and expensive.
DA sergeants have a major handicap since their codex replaced the Relic Blade with the Blade of Caliban - which is basically a Power Fist with a weaker bonus to S
They have no way to deal with Enemy Flyers.
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Post by: Volkov
I'm ready to switch to Eldar and just sell all my gak off. It sucks. I love DA, the lore is incredible, but they are so weak comparatively.
Have you thought that Dark Angels have ever been strong? I think they are a heck of a lot more competitive than that utter rubbish that was the 4th edition codex. DA have always been C: SM Hard mode. Even in 3rd edition they were inferior to regular marines. You paid a 10 point premium for both ravenwing and deathwing just to get skilled rider and fearless respectively. I have seen the slow march of Dark angels towards competitiveness, and I actually think we have almost made it
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Post by: Big Blind Bill
JohnRonald1 wrote:
This is how I feel.
I started playing around a year ago and I split the DV box with my friend, he went Tau (and now I know why. He has an incredibly Crisis suit OP list, and the expansion made it even more OP). I sold my CSM off to buy more DA. I know have close to 2000 pts of DA and I get rofl stomped anytime I try and play. The only way I can see as viable is to do a straight DW build but you gotta drop like, 500-600 bucks and even then you will buy like two command squads and two land raiders.
The only models that are powerful and useful for DA are 60-70 bucks. It's nuts.
I'm ready to switch to Eldar and just sell all my gak off. It sucks. I love DA, the lore is incredible, but they are so weak comparatively.
I wouldn't do that. One of the big advantages of marines armies is that they can represent any chapter, just use your DA models and use the new codex Space Marines.
It will make you much more competitive in an instant.
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Post by: Asmodai Asmodean
Big Blind Bill wrote:JohnRonald1 wrote:
This is how I feel.
I started playing around a year ago and I split the DV box with my friend, he went Tau (and now I know why. He has an incredibly Crisis suit OP list, and the expansion made it even more OP). I sold my CSM off to buy more DA. I know have close to 2000 pts of DA and I get rofl stomped anytime I try and play. The only way I can see as viable is to do a straight DW build but you gotta drop like, 500-600 bucks and even then you will buy like two command squads and two land raiders.
The only models that are powerful and useful for DA are 60-70 bucks. It's nuts.
I'm ready to switch to Eldar and just sell all my gak off. It sucks. I love DA, the lore is incredible, but they are so weak comparatively.
I wouldn't do that. One of the big advantages of marines armies is that they can represent any chapter, just use your DA models and use the new codex Space Marines.
It will make you much more competitive in an instant.
Heresy. Submit yourself for re-processing.
Codex DA isn't any less competitive than Codex: SM, they suffer from the same weaknesses.
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Post by: Niexist
Hey Asmodai Asmodean, that's a really impressive record with your bike list, can you give us some recommendations for a competitve list that involves deathwing?
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Post by: Big Blind Bill
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Big Blind Bill wrote:JohnRonald1 wrote:
This is how I feel.
I started playing around a year ago and I split the DV box with my friend, he went Tau (and now I know why. He has an incredibly Crisis suit OP list, and the expansion made it even more OP). I sold my CSM off to buy more DA. I know have close to 2000 pts of DA and I get rofl stomped anytime I try and play. The only way I can see as viable is to do a straight DW build but you gotta drop like, 500-600 bucks and even then you will buy like two command squads and two land raiders.
The only models that are powerful and useful for DA are 60-70 bucks. It's nuts.
I'm ready to switch to Eldar and just sell all my gak off. It sucks. I love DA, the lore is incredible, but they are so weak comparatively.
I wouldn't do that. One of the big advantages of marines armies is that they can represent any chapter, just use your DA models and use the new codex Space Marines.
It will make you much more competitive in an instant.
Heresy. Submit yourself for re-processing.
Codex DA isn't any less competitive than Codex: SM, they suffer from the same weaknesses.
Asmodai, we have talked about bikes on here before, so I guess you are predominately a ravenwing player. And in this regard I agree with you. Ravenwing is the most competitive aspect of DA and could match C: SM. However the regular troops are not as competitive. SM have grav guns, better special rules, efficient anti air and more versatility beyond bolter banner and PFG.
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Post by: JohnRonald1
Does anyone wanna tell me how DA is competitive right now? The only lists I can seem to beat are Tyranid, and that's just because I have a shooty list.
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Post by: Big Blind Bill
JohnRonald1 wrote:
Does anyone wanna tell me how DA is competitive right now? The only lists I can seem to beat are Tyranid, and that's just because I have a shooty list.
Have a look back up this thread, everything has already been said.
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