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So with all the hype of the new codex marines release, and all the awesome new features they have ( especially doctrines) where do our boys in green stand? Are we losing whatever edge we had? Grav weapons seem to put a giant boot in our termies rear and the white scars have stolen the fuel from our ravenwing, the dakka banner only goes so far when compared to bolter drill and tac doctrine. We have really been pushed back to an ally army only for our pretty little pfg and azreal giving invulns. It's a shame since we are the first legion and have a background that really can be opened up and explored better. Rumors have it chaos will be getting supplements to bring them up to speed again an give them a more variety nature close to codex. So what now? What role will we serve? Has our semi competitive shine become stolen so soon and we will fall into the shadows again like last codex? I almost want to write to GW and start a petition to get at least a supplement to give us a little more back. I want to hear Dallas thoughts now tho on the competitive and tactical standing of the DA

What made this codex stand out was the ravenwing and how awesome they were. Granted we still have the black knights but in the competitive scene the da are no longer viable. There are 100 reasons to take c:sm over da now. Even space wolves and ba still have something, though ba are less competitive. I was really hoping that the ravenwing would have kept the top spot on the bike charts but that went out the window. It's a shame that what made da special they took away from us by doing it better in c:sm. Really dark angels are no longer viable BUT they are still the most bad ass legion.

There are many ways that Dark Angels could have not sucked. All Ravenwing, all Deathwing, and hybrid builds should all have been viable.

The Dakka banner should apply to Storm Bolters to make it usable with Deathwing. Belial should have been 150 points (up 20 from before), not 190. DWT should NEVER cost more than Grey Knight Terminators (somebody was smoking crack with this one). Basically, GW dropped the ball hard on builds that could have actually worked fairly well. My own conspiracy theory on this is that they didn't want people building strong armies out of the contents of the Dark Vengeance set (because then why would people buy the more expensive models?), so they purposely made Deathwing and Ravenwing builds suck ass.

Unfortunately, I see a lot of DA stuff being relegated to the "allies" corner. Allying in something like a DA librarian will be very popular as a way to get divination. Ally in some black knights with those white scars or some Deathwing with a deep strike list with pods.

Or Azrael to give that uber Black Templar squad a 4++ invulnerable save as they run across the table.

I think a lot of people are going to be running their DA as C:SM simply for the new toys, and the fact that there are very limited benfits to the DA exclusives. But to be honest, with allies now, DA might as well just be considered in the new book. It's either DA main with allied SM or SM with allied DA. Pretty much going to be the same army regardless.

Sigh... I will still use my DA because I like them and think they are actually good in their own way. But I am definitely going to consider running some BT or IF allies with them to make up for the glaring weaknesses.

We still have better terminators in my opinion, but with the new SM I wouldn't really be taking lots of termies anyway hehe.

- VardenV2

I remember when the DA codex came out I was so happy, thinking that GW was finally going to balance the codexes. As a CSM player it took away some of the sting of my newest codex. Then Tau came out, and I realized that things hadn't changed.
The SM codex was the final nail in the coffin.

 VardenV2 wrote:


We still have better terminators in my opinion, but with the new SM I wouldn't really be taking lots of termies anyway hehe.

Except for that whole "Let's force DA terminator sgts to take terrible gear selections so they are ablative wound fodder most of the time" thing.

I personally have a blast playing my DA still. White Scars are the better bike army, which I am fine with, it's in their fluff that they are the ultimate bikers.

Really the only thing I am jealous of from the new SM dex is them actually having good fliers and AA, and taking a company master of chapter master on a bike unlocking bikes as troops. I dont want to have to use a special character every game.

I really hope someone at GW is reading this, they need to help out the 1st legion! I am almost about to get rid of all my DA, the only reason I still play with the thought of them is in apoc with the redemption formation. Poor cypher, favorite DA and now it sucks to build lists for him.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 VardenV2 wrote:


We still have better terminators in my opinion, but with the new SM I wouldn't really be taking lots of termies anyway hehe.

Except for that whole "Let's force DA terminator sgts to take terrible gear selections so they are ablative wound fodder most of the time" thing.

Yeah I hate that. My friends let me ignore it because I had them all equipped with TH/SS before they FAQ'd it int illegality. I like how the sergeant, the supposed best guy in the squad, is the guy who is unwilling to use a TH/SS in a squad dedicated to close combat... and he has the worst weapon combo to boot! It makes no sense -___-

W/e I think the best thing about DA right now vs SM is their synergy of bikes, termies, and marines. Regular SM just can't do it the same way... even if it isn't th optimal strategy, it makes them unique that way... I also wish our freakin' Chapter Master was Eternal Warrior... but he's good support regardless.

- VardenV2

Don't like your codex do what chaos space marines do: Use another codex for your army.

Codex DA does make one of the best allied detachments. Prescience and a power field generator really helps out IG.

Ravenwing with a salvo inside a land raider lists are a force to be reckoned with, but melt if confronted with hell turkeys. I think there is hope for them when played in a forge world meta. Sabers and Hyperios tend to drive off the 2 and 3 hell turkey lists.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:There are many ways that Dark Angels could have not sucked. All Ravenwing, all Deathwing, and hybrid builds should all have been viable.

The Dakka banner should apply to Storm Bolters to make it usable with Deathwing.

The dakka banner works with bolters, twin linked bolters, combi bolters, storm bolters, and hurricane bolters.

Very Superstitious wrote: White Scars are the better bike army, which I am fine with, it's in their fluff that they are the ultimate bikers.

The white scars are a speed based army not a bike army. Yes bikes are a big part of their tactics but they are the speed freaks of space marines not the ultimate bikers. The ravenwing are based off of the ravenwing steeds that the knights of the order used before the coming of the emperor. The space marine bike replaced the horses. Ravenwing is the Calvary. They are the most bad ass biker gang in the galaxy.

 namiel wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:There are many ways that Dark Angels could have not sucked. All Ravenwing, all Deathwing, and hybrid builds should all have been viable.

The Dakka banner should apply to Storm Bolters to make it usable with Deathwing.

The dakka banner works with bolters, twin linked bolters, combi bolters, storm bolters, and hurricane bolters.

DA FAQ states

Q: The Standard of Devastation states that ‘all friendly Codex: Dark Angels units within 6” of the standard treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons’. Which boltguns does this apply to? (p66)
A: This applies to the standard boltgun (24” range, S4, AP5, Rapid Fire), twin-linked boltguns on bikes, the bolter component of combi-weapons, and hurricane bolters.

So unfortunately no storm bolters.

While a full DW army is not competitive I still think that DWA is the best Termie delivery there is, AND you get TL guns upon arrival.

See that's why I love DA is for the DWA, I just wish GW would have thought more long term on it as a viable and competitive army build

 phoenix darkus wrote:
While a full DW army is not competitive I still think that DWA is the best Termie delivery there is, AND you get TL guns upon arrival.

Well, DWA is hard to pull off since the Termies shouldn't be unsupported. It will eventually split your army in two forces. Good news for the enemy.

Pure Deathwing still wins the day for me pretty much every time I drop those bad boys on the table. As the proud owner of more DA termies than I should have ever bought and also GK termies I can say that the Deathwing blokes are vastly superior to their GK counterparts.

Ravenwing is pretty 'meh' now that C:SM gave the world cheap White Scars bikers and 'Greenwing' seem to constitute a 'meh' mimicry of normal C:SM builds with not-too-special Chapter Tactics (think of 'Grim Resolve' and 'Inner Circle' as being our Chapter Tactics). Our flyers are also really, really bad and we don't have a cheap, dedicated AA unit. I still think Deathwing shines when played right, though.

Ultimately I think the only builds we have that are both good -and- feel unique to DA are Deathwing or an Azrael-led Deathwing/Ravenwing teamup (and these can both be challenging to play). There are certainly other armies one can play, but it'll be a very uphill battle with 'em.

The dakka banner makes RW pretty awesome. Black knights are very good. My models are painted white but I'm still gonna use the DA codex and ally in some grav guns and a captain in artificer armour to tank for my RW command squad because for pure bikes, RW are still top dogs IMO.

Utter utter utter bollocks. Ravenwing is still the top tier pure bike build. White scars simply cannot compete with Dakka banner/ Black Knights spam lists.

Pure Ravenwing is still a strong build that rolls 90% of lists. Reliance on cover saves means it will lose to Taudar, but who doesn't?

Please don't quote 'HELLDRAKES' at me because when was the last time a helldrake list placed top 10,or even top 50?

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Utter utter utter bollocks. Ravenwing is still the top tier pure bike build. White scars simply cannot compete with Dakka banner/ Black Knights spam lists.

Pure Ravenwing is still a strong build that rolls 90% of lists. Reliance on cover saves means it will lose to Taudar, but who doesn't?

Please don't quote 'HELLDRAKES' at me because when was the last time a helldrake list placed top 10,or even top 50?

Well there was a bunch of Necron lists with allied Heldrakes in several tournaments..

Just as icing on the cake, the FAQ in C:SM allows their command squad to take special weapons.

& they can already take bikes.

That's a 5 man bike squad with an apothecary and 4 grav guns. For the same as our Ravenwing Command Squad + apothecary (without a banner)

It's true they don't do combat nearly as well as Black Knights, but 4 relentless grav guns makes me wish my black knights "plasma talons" were instead at least TL Plasma guns.

Sigh, I waited some 7 odd years for the DA book. I love the fluff but it would be nice to have a chance to be competitive...

Looks like it's time for random fun games for now and then back to Nids when they're released

Near the bottom of the bucket trying to crawl away from the Fallen.....

smee wrote:
Just as icing on the cake, the FAQ in C:SM allows their command squad to take special weapons.

& they can already take bikes.

That's a 5 man bike squad with an apothecary and 4 grav guns. For the same as our Ravenwing Command Squad + apothecary (without a banner)

It's true they don't do combat nearly as well as Black Knights, but 4 relentless grav guns makes me wish my black knights "plasma talons" were instead at least TL Plasma guns.

Sigh, I waited some 7 odd years for the DA book. I love the fluff but it would be nice to have a chance to be competitive...

Looks like it's time for random fun games for now and then back to Nids when they're released

Can the command squad lower your toughness, initiative and WS allowing for brutal instant death shenanigans? Are its weapons twin linked? Does it have S5 rending weapons? Are they as much of a steal as black knights?

No. No. No. No.

I like grav guns and I will be allying some into my RW list. Not at the expense of black knights though and if I had to choose between them I'd choose black knights all day every day.

jamin484 wrote:

smee wrote:
Just as icing on the cake, the FAQ in C:SM allows their command squad to take special weapons.

& they can already take bikes.

That's a 5 man bike squad with an apothecary and 4 grav guns. For the same as our Ravenwing Command Squad + apothecary (without a banner)

It's true they don't do combat nearly as well as Black Knights, but 4 relentless grav guns makes me wish my black knights "plasma talons" were instead at least TL Plasma guns.

Sigh, I waited some 7 odd years for the DA book. I love the fluff but it would be nice to have a chance to be competitive...

Looks like it's time for random fun games for now and then back to Nids when they're released

Can the command squad lower your toughness

Grav Guns don't care about toughness

, initiative

Black Knights are I4, and anything higher than that is generally going to make mincemeat of them. They also suck against Marines in CC.

and WS allowing for brutal instant death shenanigans?

Yeah, maybe once in a blue moon. You need at minimum a squad of 9 and 3 GL's, and to hit with every single one on an MC in order to instant death it. Otherwise you're only instant killing T4 Marine IC's at best, which your opponent would have to be really stupid to let your Knights get near.

Are its weapons twin linked?

Divination psykers can be allied in on bikes and given scout, still puts out average more hits and firepower.

Does it have S5 rending weapons?

Which are completely naff and worthless against most targets for their obscene price

Are they as much of a steal as black knights?

6 Black Knights: 256 pts, 8 S7 AP2 shots at 9'', 4 at 18''. I mean, you are taking those GL's, aren't you? Oh, and you have a chance to lose a model now and then.

5 Biker Commands with Grav Guns : 210 points, 15 Ap2 shots at 18'' that ignore toughness values and go straight to wounding against armour saves, and since you'll be firing at them 80% of the time anyway, weaker armour saves are scarcely a problem.

You want the same amount of firepower on your BK's? You need minimum 8 BK's (336 pts), and you can't take a single GL. Uh huh, I'm really sold here.



No. No. No. No.

I like grav guns and I will be allying some into my RW list. Not at the expense of black knights though and if I had to choose between them I'd choose black knights all day every day.

Biker Command Squads put out almost twice as much firepower at double the range. What they do lose, honestly, that is of value? Oh, S5 rending hammers. They're naff. They even suck against MEQ. Khan Scars even get your Scout, 1+ Jink and ignores dangerous terrain tricks, on their basic level bikers, which are also cheaper, also put out more firepower, also have longer range with their Gravs over your plasmas, and become scoring units by including a HQ choice that is 55 points cheaper than Sammael.

Marine lists become weaker because of inherent generalization. You want focused roles for your unit, not to fart-arse about with traits like being marginally better in CC.

The only competitive list RW can pull off is S.O.D abuse with Sammael. And their AA is essentially non existent without allies, whereas Scars get two incredibly viable flyers and AA tanks.

smee wrote:
Just as icing on the cake, the FAQ in C:SM allows their command squad to take special weapons.

& they can already take bikes.

That's a 5 man bike squad with an apothecary and 4 grav guns. For the same as our Ravenwing Command Squad + apothecary (without a banner)

It's true they don't do combat nearly as well as Black Knights, but 4 relentless grav guns makes me wish my black knights "plasma talons" were instead at least TL Plasma guns.

Sigh, I waited some 7 odd years for the DA book. I love the fluff but it would be nice to have a chance to be competitive...

Looks like it's time for random fun games for now and then back to Nids when they're released

What utter Bollocks. Do the Command squad have skilled rider and a possible 2+ jink save? No.

Plasma Talons ARE twin linked plasma Guns, just sans range.

They can't get RW Grenade Launchers.

DA are competitive as any SM build at the moment.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

smee wrote:
Just as icing on the cake, the FAQ in C:SM allows their command squad to take special weapons.

& they can already take bikes.

That's a 5 man bike squad with an apothecary and 4 grav guns. For the same as our Ravenwing Command Squad + apothecary (without a banner)

It's true they don't do combat nearly as well as Black Knights, but 4 relentless grav guns makes me wish my black knights "plasma talons" were instead at least TL Plasma guns.

Sigh, I waited some 7 odd years for the DA book. I love the fluff but it would be nice to have a chance to be competitive...

Looks like it's time for random fun games for now and then back to Nids when they're released

What utter Bollocks. Do the Command squad have skilled rider

Chapter Tactics : White Scars allows you to ignore dangerous terrain tests and gives you 1+ to your jink save, so yes, essentially.

and a possible 2+ jink save? No.

Requires you to blob up AND turboboost anyway to get that, and you need an 80 point unit on top of your massive investment. Besides, the entirety of the White Scars bikes gets a consistent 4+ jink and 3+ during turbo boost. Scars don't even need to turbo boost at all when your specials have an 18'' range.

Plasma Talons ARE twin linked plasma Guns, just sans range.

Range matters.

They can't get RW Grenade Launchers.

Which aren't anything amazing to a unit that already wounds most things on 3's or 2's, and sucks in combat with or without the nerf handout it provides.

DA are competitive as any SM build at the moment.

Not even close.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Yeah, maybe once in a blue moon. You need at minimum a squad of 9 and 3 GL's, and to hit with every single one on an MC in order to instant death it. Otherwise you're only instant killing T4 Marine IC's at best, which your opponent would have to be really stupid to let your Knights get near.[/b]

Well, you aren't IDing MCs anyway unless you have a Vindicator or ally in another S10 weapon as the -1 T from the rad grenades doesn't stack.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Yeah, maybe once in a blue moon. You need at minimum a squad of 9 and 3 GL's, and to hit with every single one on an MC in order to instant death it. Otherwise you're only instant killing T4 Marine IC's at best, which your opponent would have to be really stupid to let your Knights get near.[/b]

Well for one thing any UNIT hit by a grenade from the rw gl the whole unit is affected. It doesnt say models it says units. Also I have had some pretty decent luck against things such as suits and broadsides hitting them with grenades and then insta killing them

I'm glad to see someone is tackling Black knight squad Versus Grav knight squad!

What a bunch of whinging this is. We still have great terminators (and plasma guns still wounded us on a 2+ and ignored armor saves anyways), we still have great bikes. Sure, WS have 1+ str to how. Wow. In exchange we get

- Black Knights, one of the best all round units in the game. No seriously, 15 points more for +2 A, tl plasma gun, skilled rider and +1 str rending. That is ridiculously good. And a cheap banner to guarantee hit and run. On a friggin bike.
- Darkshrouds, allowing for 2/3 + cover saves.
- the ability to easily utilize terminators to act as anchors for the bikes,and tie up big units.
- dakka banner for insane force multiplying

Deathwing knights are still amazing, Greenwing still has insane dakka, Ravenwing still has all its toys. If you want centurions or the AA tanks that bad, run an allied detachment. Hell, stick Azrael in a squad of 6 centurions and get that sweet 4++Nothings stopping you.

Dark Angels are still great.

I agree, I think Ravenwing are better bikers than the white scars at the moment, simply because of Black Knights and the command squad banners. Also, Sammael is pretty kickass.

To me, White scars are a much better speed/ harassment army that focuses on shooting, hitting, running, repeating. Ravenwing, especially combined with Deathwing, are a fast, hard-hitting army that should be zooming up, shooting, charging and then sweeping the units. Dark Angels bikes are shooty tastic, and Black Knights are great at shooting and then rolling in and killing the remaining guys in assault. Dark Angels don't want to be in assault all game, they want to be riding in and slicing off heads and getting out unharmed.

The difference is that I think White Scars have a lot more 'well rounded' options because of the flexibility of their Chapter Tactics combined with non-bikes. They can cover a lot of areas our army cannot. Perhaps ally in some White Scars with the Ravenwing? Would be one friggin' cool army in my opinion!

- VardenV2