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Sidguard wrote:
What a bunch of whinging this is. We still have great terminators (and plasma guns still wounded us on a 2+ and ignored armor saves anyways), we still have great bikes. Sure, WS have 1+ str to how. Wow

And Skilled Rider on every bike. And hit and run on every other non bike model. And scout.

. In exchange we get

- Black Knights, one of the best all round units in the game.

In a vacuum, maybe. Also, all round units suck. You want focus not a mishmash of roles and wasted points.

No seriously, 15 points more for +2 A, tl plasma gun, skilled rider and +1 str rending.

On top of already expensive RW bikers. K.WS bikers only lose a teleport homer in comparison and gain skilled rider, but are 6 points cheaper.

That is ridiculously good.

Not when you compare it to WS, or, you know, read the thread.

And a cheap banner to guarantee hit and run. On a friggin bike.

You may as well cross out the entry because the SOD banner is mandatory for RW to be competitive.

- Darkshrouds, allowing for 2/3 + cover saves.

80 points on top of an already absurdly expensive unit, and they die like T5 Marines to small arms.

- the ability to easily utilize terminators to act as anchors for the bikes,and tie up big units.

What? This is far from unique to DA. Marine Sergeants can take teleport homers now anyway.

- dakka banner for insane force multiplying

This is literally the, if not one of the only things that makes DA relevant.

Greenwing still has insane dakka

With the SOD, on tactical marines. Otherwise you may as well play C:SM, because chapter tactics is that much better.

, Ravenwing still has all its toys.

Flyers and Vengeance is naff. RW GL isn't much to cheer about.



Dark Angels are still great.

I generally consider DA bikes much more formidable than WS ones. The existence of the Standard of Devastation and the Ravenwing Command Squad/Black Knights/Darkshroud more than make up for WS Chapter Tactics.

WS bike units may be better in a vacuum, but Ravenwing bike armies are better overall.

 Kingsley wrote:
I generally consider DA bikes much more formidable than WS ones. The existence of the Standard of Devastation and the Ravenwing Command Squad/Black Knights/Darkshroud more than make up for WS Chapter Tactics.

RW bike units may be better in a vacuum, but Khan White Scar bike armies are better overall.

Yes just completely ignore every other post I've made in this thread. BK's do not compare to KWS Grav Gun bikers until you bring up incredibly limited use GL's and lacklustre CC ability.

Also fixed the typo in your post. Completely baseless is the assertion that RW is more flexible than KWS when the entirety of their strategy revolves around 2 weak units with 6" bubble buffs. KWS bikers can scout, move into any place 3/4 up the board ignoring terrain and shoot at basically anything with 18" AP2 fire that disables vehicles and rips Riptides a new one.

And their flyers don't suck.

I don't know where you're getting the information about grav guns, but they're the same range as your talons, 18", yours are TL, and don't knock the cc capability of BK's.

1 S4 and 4 S5 rending attacks on the charge per guy is formidable.

Also, WHY are you valuing scout so much on KWS and not RW? All RW bikes have scout, homing beacons and hit and run.

BronzeJon wrote:
I don't know where you're getting the information about grav guns, but they're the same range as your talons, 18", yours are TL,

Talons get one shot at 18'', Grav Guns get three. Grav Guns are concussive, and support other melee units. Grav Guns immobilize vehicles and strip hull points. Plasma Talons kill your 42 point Marines on occassion, and thats it.


and don't knock the cc capability of BK's.

1 S4 and 4 S5 rending attacks on the charge per guy is formidable.

Yeah, maybe to GEQ or Orks, but then again, what isn't? Grav Gun BCS' and KWS Bikers are also good against those units. 6 BK's will probably kill about 3 or so MEQ if you do the math.

For a 256 pt unit that will drop like flies to massed small arms, which is anything but rare. Khan could probably kill 2-3 MEQ on his own, between his D3 S5 hammer of wrath, furious charge and power sword.

Also, WHY are you valuing scout so much on KWS and not RW? All RW bikes have scout, homing beacons and hit and run.

Because Grav Guns make far better use of Scout than melta or plasma special spam RW squadrons, which are only worth the 6 extra points per biker if you brought deepstriking units. Sure, you have the SOD, but even 100+ bolter shots won't bring down a Riptide or most MC's, which you need to utilize your specials against and kill fast. Its also a lottery when determining how boned opponent to opponent you are for blobbing all your bikers together.

In a vacuum, maybe. Also, all round units suck. You want focus not a mishmash of roles and wasted points.

Clearly you've never played with Black Knights before. They roll 90% of units in the game.

On top of already expensive RW bikers. K.WS bikers only lose a teleport homer in comparison and gain skilled rider, but are 6 points cheaper.

So they're 6 points cheaper. Squeeze in two bikers per list? Big whoop.

Not when you compare it to WS, or, you know, read the thread.

White Scars are still inferior in every way.

You may as well cross out the entry because the SOD banner is mandatory for RW to be competitive.

No, you take two command squads and take two banners. You clearly don't understand how strong the Ravenwing Standard is, or how to build/play Ravenwing.

80 points on top of an already absurdly expensive unit, and they die like T5 Marines to small arms.

What? It's got a 2+ cover save. It gives you a 2+ cover save.

What? This is far from unique to DA. Marine Sergeants can take teleport homers now anyway.

You can't scout your marine sarges.

This is literally the, if not one of the only things that makes DA relevant.

PFG, Div libarians...

With the SOD, on tactical marines. Otherwise you may as well play C:SM, because chapter tactics is that much better.

Which one in particular?

Flyers and Vengeance is naff. RW GL isn't much to cheer about.

It's better equipment than anything in codex SM.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

BronzeJon wrote:
I don't know where you're getting the information about grav guns, but they're the same range as your talons, 18", yours are TL,

Talons get one shot at 18'', Grav Guns get three. Grav Guns are concussive, and support other melee units. Grav Guns immobilize vehicles and strip hull points. Plasma Talons kill your 42 point Marines on occassion, and thats it.


and don't knock the cc capability of BK's.

1 S4 and 4 S5 rending attacks on the charge per guy is formidable.

Yeah, maybe to GEQ or Orks, but then again, what isn't? Grav Gun BCS' and KWS Bikers are also good against those units. 6 BK's will probably kill about 3 or so MEQ if you do the math.

For a 256 pt unit that will drop like flies to massed small arms, which is anything but rare. Khan could probably kill 2-3 MEQ on his own, between his D3 S5 hammer of wrath, furious charge and power sword.

Also, WHY are you valuing scout so much on KWS and not RW? All RW bikes have scout, homing beacons and hit and run.

Because Grav Guns make far better use of Scout than melta or plasma special spam RW squadrons, which are only worth the 6 extra points per biker if you brought deepstriking units. Sure, you have the SOD, but even 100+ bolter shots won't bring down a Riptide or most MC's, which you need to utilize your specials against and kill fast. Its also a lottery when determining how boned opponent to opponent you are for blobbing all your bikers together.

You don't even have, much less play a Ravenwing or biker army, so please don't dispense advice about things you clearly don't know anything about.

Twin-linked plasma is still more effective in general against most things. Grav guns remain situational.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
In a vacuum, maybe. Also, all round units suck. You want focus not a mishmash of roles and wasted points.

Clearly you've never played with Black Knights before. They roll 90% of units in the game.

Uh, yes I have, on quite a few occasions. I can remember each one in detail.

The first time, they died to Firewarriors. The second time, they died to Firewarriors. The third time, they died to Noise Marines, who killed them in overwatch, and then beat them in CC. The fourth time, they got wiped out in a single round before they struck by a Daemon Prince. A unit of 8. The only thing they have ever accomplished of note is killing a Hive Tyrant and a Tervigon on two different occassions, in small point games where nothing else shot at them, and my opponents had no idea what my bikers were capable of. Grav Gun bikers do the same thing far better.

On top of already expensive RW bikers. K.WS bikers only lose a teleport homer in comparison and gain skilled rider, but are 6 points cheaper.

So they're 6 points cheaper. Squeeze in two bikers per list? Big whoop.

For every 4 bikers you get another Bike over RW. Thats big. With 4 squads (which you will probably have) thats an entirely other squad that is a straight upgrade over RW.

Not when you compare it to WS, or, you know, read the thread.

White Scars are still inferior in every way.

Evidence? I'm not seeing it.

You may as well cross out the entry because the SOD banner is mandatory for RW to be competitive.

No, you take two command squads and take two banners. You clearly don't understand how strong the Ravenwing Standard is, or how to build/play Ravenwing.

Your SOD command squad gets annihilated, either by Helldrake, or by Marker Light, or by charging unit, or by Farsight bomb, or by a Riptide with a Crisis Suit Commander attached, or by the many, many other ways of ignoring cover, and your entire list falls apart. And a PFG is still a 50:50 chance, which won't hold up against much at all.

80 points on top of an already absurdly expensive unit, and they die like T5 Marines to small arms.

What? It's got a 2+ cover save. It gives you a 2+ cover save.

Only when you turbo boost.

What? This is far from unique to DA. Marine Sergeants can take teleport homers now anyway.

You can't scout your marine sarges.

Yes, you can, because Khan gives all Tactical squads in dedicated transports Scout. They get out on the enemy deployment line by the end of the 1st turn. Bam. RWAS's only redeeming feature, a 10 pt upgrade on a 130 point squad.

This is literally the, if not one of the only things that makes DA relevant.

PFG, Div libarians...

Rune Priests on Bike are better than RW Div Librarians.

With the SOD, on tactical marines. Otherwise you may as well play C:SM, because chapter tactics is that much better.

Which one in particular?

Iron Hands, for 6+ FNP. Imperial Fists, for more accurate bolter fire. Raven Guard, for stealth and scout on all your Tactical Squads first turn, with 2+ GTG cover saves in area terrain. Ultramarines, for flexibile buffs that allow you to fight better on the fly. White Scars, for hit and run on every Marine.

Flyers and Vengeance is naff. RW GL isn't much to cheer about.

It's better equipment than anything in codex SM.

And, at this point, I can tell you've given up.

Ok, you've now gone to the level where you insult my ability to play, and I no longer see any value in discussing this with you.

I just find these insights interesting. Noone has managed to convince me RW is worth it over KWS, sadly.

You don't even have, much less play a Ravenwing or biker army, so please don't dispense advice about things you clearly don't know anything about.

Twin-linked plasma (with -6 range) is still more effective in general against most things. Grav guns remain situational.

I have a bike army, which I proxied as RW before the drop of C:SM. Please don't be so quick to assume and spit in my face.

TL Plasma is only better against units with 4+ saves compared to Grav, at which point you switch to TL bolters and murderlize them still, because anything and everything murders 4+ saves.

Sound the butthurt alarm..........and LOCKED maybe

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Yes just completely ignore every other post I've made in this thread. BK's do not compare to KWS Grav Gun bikers until you bring up incredibly limited use GL's and lacklustre CC ability.

Gotta disagree with you there. RWBKs are one of the best and most underrated units in the game.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Completely baseless is the assertion that RW is more flexible than KWS when the entirety of their strategy revolves around 2 weak units with 6" bubble buffs. KWS bikers can scout, move into any place 3/4 up the board ignoring terrain and shoot at basically anything with 18" AP2 fire that disables vehicles and rips Riptides a new one.

And their flyers don't suck.

Ravenwing can Scout too, not that it matters much. You're radically overrating Scout-- against most good armies it does practically nothing.

 namiel wrote:
Sound the butthurt alarm..........and LOCKED maybe

Not at all. I have comprehensively and politely attempted to answer every opposing point, and I'm content with what I've said. This thread shouldn't be locked just because I disagree with your opinion. This a genuine topic of debate.

DA are for the most part outta the competitive scene. The DW are not all they are cracked up to be and they are super expensive! Ravenwing.....you mean White Scars with Black Knight allies.

Malik_Raynor wrote:
DA are for the most part outta the competitive scene. The DW are not all they are cracked up to be and they are super expensive! Ravenwing.....you mean White Scars with Black Knight allies.

WS and RW make natural allies but I'd do it the other way around. Have a peek at this and let me know what you think.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551579.page#6039465


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 namiel wrote:
Sound the butthurt alarm..........and LOCKED maybe

Not at all. I have comprehensively and politely attempted to answer every opposing point, and I'm content with what I've said. This thread shouldn't be locked just because I disagree with your opinion. This a genuine topic of debate.

I'm not sure that your interested in debate really. A lot of people have commented here disagreeing with you about this but I don't think were going to convince each other of anything and some of your posts sounds a little... upset. I suggest we agree to disagree.

jamin484 wrote:

Malik_Raynor wrote:
DA are for the most part outta the competitive scene. The DW are not all they are cracked up to be and they are super expensive! Ravenwing.....you mean White Scars with Black Knight allies.

WS and RW make natural allies but I'd do it the other way around. Have a peek at this and let me know what you think.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551579.page#6039465


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 namiel wrote:
Sound the butthurt alarm..........and LOCKED maybe

Not at all. I have comprehensively and politely attempted to answer every opposing point, and I'm content with what I've said. This thread shouldn't be locked just because I disagree with your opinion. This a genuine topic of debate.

I'm not sure that your interested in debate really. A lot of people have commented here disagreeing with you about this but I don't think were going to convince each other of anything and some of your posts sounds a little... upset. I suggest we agree to disagree.

I am interested in debate, I'm assimilating ideas for a tournament coming up and being absolutely certain about my decisions is the name of the game.

Anyway, your list looks good, I don't contest that RW is a useful ally, especially in some regards to Scars.

By the way, you can give either of the WS Bike Squads scout by attaching Sammael to them. He has Scout so he confers it to them too by joining the unit.

I think there are some viable DA builds. You can do dark shroud rhino rush. When you pop smoke, with a couple dark shrouds around, their save is 3+

You can have the 4+ isave land raider sitting out in the open with what is essentially the venerable dreadnought rule.

I think what it is, is that people see the DA elements as something you can ally into space marines.

But why can't you ally the good elements of space marines into Dark angels?

Really, dreadnoughts, chaplains, captain/masters, drop pod, rhino, razorback, tactical squads, scouts, landspeeders, land raiders, devestators, assault squads are all EXACTLY the same.

Then just custom pick which is better from which codex with allies. It's really the same frickin book.

 scuddman wrote:
I think there are some viable DA builds. You can do dark shroud rhino rush. When you pop smoke, with a couple dark shrouds around, their save is 3+

You can have the 4+ isave land raider sitting out in the open with what is essentially the venerable dreadnought rule.

I think what it is, is that people see the DA elements as something you can ally into space marines.

But why can't you ally the good elements of space marines into Dark angels?

Really, dreadnoughts, chaplains, captain/masters, drop pod, rhino, razorback, tactical squads, scouts, landspeeders, land raiders, devestators, assault squads are all EXACTLY the same.

Then just custom pick which is better from which codex with allies. It's really the same frickin book.

Traits are much better than stubborn on all those shared units. It is for that reason that the unique DA elements are being looked at as allied additions.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

jamin484 wrote:

Malik_Raynor wrote:
DA are for the most part outta the competitive scene. The DW are not all they are cracked up to be and they are super expensive! Ravenwing.....you mean White Scars with Black Knight allies.

WS and RW make natural allies but I'd do it the other way around. Have a peek at this and let me know what you think.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/551579.page#6039465


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 namiel wrote:
Sound the butthurt alarm..........and LOCKED maybe

Not at all. I have comprehensively and politely attempted to answer every opposing point, and I'm content with what I've said. This thread shouldn't be locked just because I disagree with your opinion. This a genuine topic of debate.

I'm not sure that your interested in debate really. A lot of people have commented here disagreeing with you about this but I don't think were going to convince each other of anything and some of your posts sounds a little... upset. I suggest we agree to disagree.

I am interested in debate, I'm assimilating ideas for a tournament coming up and being absolutely certain about my decisions is the name of the game.

Anyway, your list looks good, I don't contest that RW is a useful ally, especially in some regards to Scars.

By the way, you can give either of the WS Bike Squads scout by attaching Sammael to them. He has Scout so he confers it to them too by joining the unit.

Fair enough mate. I suppose one of the main reasons I like my RW bikers over the grav gun unit (they are both very powerful) is the RW grenade launcher. Once a unit is hit by it you can reduce their T by one or their WS/initative to one for the rest of the turn. This means that the rest of the army can shoot their salvo 4 bolters at T3 marines or whatever or it means that you can charge that unit of harlequins/ daemonettes etc, strike first and butcher them. The T/L talons are also great for hunting flyers because the bike platform means that you can get in behind them and get penetrating AP2 hits. Reducing toughness is also really important when you consider their hammers are S5 and HoW. I've already mentioned the fantastic ability to instant kill characters but it also wipes out FNP for a lot of units. It's probably my favourite piece of equipment.
The grav command squad fulfils a similar role but is slightly more specialised to kill MC's and wave serpents. This is great because those units are hard to deal with but think about their weakness when going up against daemons, harlequins etc.

BK's can deal with almost anything if they get the drop on it because they are really good at shooting and combat. The grav command squad is something that can change the meta significantly because it is purpose built to kill things that have been dominating tournaments e.g wave serpents riptides other MC's. They both have a place, but I think the versatility of the BK's edges it.

Cheers
Jamin

With the addition of grav weapons murding serpents, riptides and MC's, do you think we'll see less of them?
If so, with less Serpents and Riptides around, does that make DA more viable again?

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
With the addition of grav weapons murding serpents, riptides and MC's, do you think we'll see less of them?
If so, with less Serpents and Riptides around, does that make DA more viable again?

-Matt

I hope so yeah. That was what I was most pleased about with the new codex, it rebalanced older powerful 'dex's without being unbalanced in its own right, unlike the tau codex for instance which ended necron dominance by replacing it as the most powerful book.

To be honest I haven't even shot a grav gun yet, I'm having too much fun with my guard right now to be using my white scars. My HQ choice, captain vegetable, is yet to get a run out....

The first time, they died to Firewarriors. The second time, they died to Firewarriors. The third time, they died to Noise Marines, who killed them in overwatch, and then beat them in CC. The fourth time, they got wiped out in a single round before they struck by a Daemon Prince. A unit of 8. The only thing they have ever accomplished of note is killing a Hive Tyrant and a Tervigon on two different occassions, in small point games where nothing else shot at them, and my opponents had no idea what my bikers were capable of. Grav Gun bikers do the same thing far better.

Sounds like bad generalship to me. Firewarriors should not exist past turn one against SoD Ravenwing. Noise Marines are a threat, but still rare and as susceptible to being banner-boltered, being infantry.
Why should a DP ever be able to kill more than the champ? Challenge, automatic hit-and-run, lay waste.

Grav-guns remain situational. Plasma Talons/ GL remain better against Daemons, Daemon Princes, AV10/11, ID-ing Wraiths and Paladins, Wraithguard...

For every 4 bikers you get another Bike over RW. Thats big. With 4 squads (which you will probably have) thats an entirely other squad that is a straight upgrade over RW.

Until the White Scars bikes are able to fire 4 shots per bike at 24", no amount of points discount will make them remotely equal.

Evidence? I'm not seeing it.

You see what you choose to see. Everyone here has told you you're wrong, but you keep hacking on about your silly Grav Gun command squad, which puts them nearly on par with RW but not quite equal, because their cc still sucks.

Your SOD command squad gets annihilated, either by Helldrake, or by Marker Light, or by charging unit, or by Farsight bomb, or by a Riptide with a Crisis Suit Commander attached, or by the many, many other ways of ignoring cover, and your entire list falls apart. And a PFG is still a 50:50 chance, which won't hold up against much at all.

Helldrakes and Farsightbombs are turn two, earliest. This is a classic example of theory-crafting... it ignores your cover, it must destroy you instantly! There are many ways to mitigate the damage from above-mentioned threats.

Ravenwing isn't top tier simply because of Tau ignores cover, this is fact. But how does this make them worse than WS, who can't even get the 4++ unless they... ally in Ravenwing?

Only when you turbo boost.

There isn't a turn when you're not turbo boosting with your Darkshroud.

Yes, you can, because Khan gives all Tactical squads in dedicated transports Scout. They get out on the enemy deployment line by the end of the 1st turn. Bam. RWAS's only redeeming feature, a 10 pt upgrade on a 130 point squad.

This is assuming you take Khan instead of a Chapter Master, who is probably better. In any case, scouting teleporters are useless in the meta. so this point is moot.

Rune Priests on Bike are better than RW Div Librarians.

5th edition hangover, will lose their 4+ DTW bubble soon and anyway cost almost twice as much.

Iron Hands, for 6+ FNP. Imperial Fists, for more accurate bolter fire. Raven Guard, for stealth and scout on all your Tactical Squads first turn, with 2+ GTG cover saves in area terrain. Ultramarines, for flexibile buffs that allow you to fight better on the fly. White Scars, for hit and run on every Marine.

Marginal improvements which don't address their basic weaknesses, and still inferior to SoD bolters in a Fortress.

And, at this point, I can tell you've given up.

Well, it seems you have since you can't name me a better piece of equipment in codex SM.

Ok, you've now gone to the level where you insult my ability to play, and I no longer see any value in discussing this with you.

I just find these insights interesting. Noone has managed to convince me RW is worth it over KWS, sadly.

No one is insulting your ability to play, just questioning your judgement. In any case, seems like you've made up your mind... and nothing is going to convince you.

I have a bike army, which I proxied as RW before the drop of C:SM. Please don't be so quick to assume and spit in my face.

TL Plasma is only better against units with 4+ saves compared to Grav, at which point you switch to TL bolters and murderlize them still, because anything and everything murders 4+ saves.

Sorry for jumping to conclusions, but if you have actual experience with them you should realise how rapey Ravenwing can get.

Grav guns are only better against T8 and Riptides, and AV 12+, mathematical fact.

Grav guns are only better against T8 and Riptides, and AV 12+, mathematical fact.

Uh, no?

In a unit of 6 RWBK with 4 plasma talons (you don't get to bang on about your RW GL's if you're not taking them) costing 256 points, you're doing 5.5~ wounds against MEQ, whereas a Grav Command Squad on bikes gets 6.667. That's a mathematical fact. If you use a prescience psyker allied in you're then up to 8.889 wounds.

Against termies, GG's kill 5.556, plasma talons kill 3.951.

and nothing is going to convince you.

Because you're giving the same point over and over and that doesn't make it any more legitimate when I have solid numbers.

Black Knights only get better statistically than GG Command Squads in shooting until they reach 7 plasma talons. Fact. GG Command Squads have twice the effective range and don't have to get within literally assault range to pull off enough firepower to annihilate a unit. 5 BK's on average kill 3.333 Marines on the charge. Fact. (General and widely shared opinion: That's crap for 210 points)

The only thing you have to offer is 'but they have CC! CC!' and 'its only situational!1'

You take a CC orientated list with Marines to a tournament. I dare you. Focus is better than generalization. I'd take 5 plasma guns on MEQ over 4 plasma guns and a power weapon on MEQ (allow me to point out this is an analogy) any day of the week.

GG's neuter Serpent Spam and Riptides, the two most common and deadly builds right now. NOVA open's top 15 rankers was almost entirely Tau/Eldar, as was the other huge UK tournament recently.

5th edition hangover, will lose their 4+ DTW bubble soon and anyway cost almost twice as much.

Grumble more. It'll be around for a lot longer.

This is assuming you take Khan instead of a Chapter Master, who is probably better. In any case, scouting teleporters are useless in the meta. so this point is moot.

Former point is petty, latter point is objectively wrong.

Well, it seems you have since you can't name me a better piece of equipment in codex SM.

Dark Talon/Nephillim? Storm Talon. Storm Raven.

DA Relic Weapons? Eternal Warrior shield. AP2 strike at initiative weapon with 3+ strength. Chaplain-in-a-box banner.

DA AA tanks? Oh wait.

Stubborn Tactical Squads? Chapter tactic Tactical Squads.

Land Speeder Vengeance? Grav Centurions.

Company Veterans? Sternguard.

There isn't a turn when you're not turbo boosting with your Darkshroud.

Oh please, you know what I meant. You're not going to be turbo-boosting your BK's 24/7.

Helldrakes and Farsightbombs are turn two, earliest. This is a classic example of theory-crafting... it ignores your cover, it must destroy you instantly! There are many ways to mitigate the damage from above-mentioned threats.

Ravenwing isn't top tier simply because of Tau ignores cover, this is fact. But how does this make them worse than WS, who can't even get the 4++ unless they... ally in Ravenwing?

Yeah, well saying this won't make your opponent pack his models away when you do play them (which you almost certainly will at a tournament), and those are only examples I could think of at the time.

WS don't need a 4++ because their list doesn't break into tiny pieces when a few units go pop.

Sounds like bad generalship to me. Firewarriors should not exist past turn one against SoD Ravenwing. Noise Marines are a threat, but still rare and as susceptible to being banner-boltered, being infantry.
Why should a DP ever be able to kill more than the champ? Challenge, automatic hit-and-run, lay waste.

'Pfft I would have done it better' does not form a legitimate argument.


Allow me to make this abundantly clear: If you think CC is actually a staple of the meta, and actually better than 20/25% more raw, reliable firepower, you're disillusioned. Ask any player and the odds are they will tell you that.

Stubborn tac squads? Your whole army has stubborn in DA, it's called grim resolve.

DA get the PFG, which applied to a libby/chappy on bike can keep up with a lot of your army and provide a to vehicles.

Uh, no?

In a unit of 6 RWBK with 4 plasma talons (you don't get to bang on about your RW GL's if you're not taking them) costing 256 points, you're doing 5.5~ wounds against MEQ, whereas a Grav Command Squad on bikes gets 6.667. That's a mathematical fact. If you use a prescience psyker allied in you're then up to 8.889 wounds.

Against termies, GG's kill 5.556, plasma talons kill 3.951.

You completely ignore my point about Daemons, Insta-death, and light armour. Grav guns suck at those. Sure they're marginally better against termies, but so what?

Because you're giving the same point over and over and that doesn't make it any more legitimate when I have solid numbers.

Black Knights only get better statistically than GG Command Squads in shooting until they reach 7 plasma talons. Fact. GG Command Squads have twice the effective range and don't have to get within literally assault range to pull off enough firepower to annihilate a unit. 5 BK's on average kill 3.333 Marines on the charge. Fact. (General and widely shared opinion: That's crap for 210 points)

You have any effective range of 18", which isn't huge.Things that want to charge you will get to do so. Did I mention that they suck against Daemons? There's lots of reasons why you'd want to be in close combat, but they seem lost on you. Doing additional wounds, staying out of shooting... doing damage in their turn as well as yours...

You completely ignore my point about Daemons, Insta-death, and light armour. Grav guns suck at those. Sure they're marginally better against termies, but so what?

GEQ-4+svEQ die to bolters like babies anyway. Instant death has a very specific use against specific units, and isn't always going to occur in the first place.

But what's the point mentioning this, you've already ignored it twice, and the fact that you were objectively wrong about them being mathematically better at killing MEQ and TEQ. Average 2 more 40 point kills is not a 'marginal increase'.

You have any effective range of 18", which isn't huge.Things that want to charge you will get to do so. Did I mention that they suck against Daemons? There's lots of reasons why you'd want to be in close combat, but they seem lost on you. Doing additional wounds, staying out of shooting... doing damage in their turn as well as yours...

A devastating threat range of 30''. They can fire from the middle of the board and with 3 shots. That means they're capable of neutralizing vehicles, abusing factors to avoid being charged, and stay out of rapid fire range, amongst other things. They can shave half the wounds off a Riptide at that distance.

Where did I say it's a tournament effective list? I specifically said that because of ignores cover it doesn't do so well. In any case, your vaunted WS command squad will evaporate just as fast, if not faster, since you don't have a 4++. Your analogy is compelety off point.

You don't walk into a 'tactics' forum and boast about how RW is the best thing since sliced bread only to say 'well muh its not a tournament list'.

You made out that ignores cover was too circumstantial to be afraid of. A 210 point unit is not half as much of a loss as 256-378 point BK unit with as only just as much firepower or even less.

Analogy is anything but off point. Focus is the name of the game. The entire reason people take the SOD is because it provides raw, focused firepower that annihilates when you exploit Tacticals with it in a gunline, you don't see people parading C:SM Tactical Squads as being better because they might be marginally better at something like escaping CC or challenges.

No, they don't. You get to shoot one WS with your command squad. Space Marines of all stripes are still inferior (though RW is still better than WS.)

Strawman harder. Of course I'm not going to take one unit of BCSGG's, I could take two, and by default troops are going to be KWS Grav Gun Bikers, which are basically a straight upgrade over RWAS' besides 'useless teleport homers. Allow me to remind you that you said that yourself.

You just ignored that point last time though. Cough.

First you say that it dies as fast as a T5 marine, but then backtrack to talk about BKs. What? It's a 2+ cover save, and any shots at it are shots not going at your bikes.

I'm not talking about the Shroud, duh. I'm talking about the Knights and how without the 2+ cover save given by the shroud during turboboosting they are just T5 Marines against small arms.

Yes, it does. Other than the grav gun command squad, what do you have that can compete in a tournament environment that RW doesn't? Nothing.

Oh, so we're now back to the pretence that this is a tournament level discussion.

What does KWS have?

AA that doesn't suck.
Flyers that don't suck.
Bikers that are a straight upgrade over RWAS. If your plasma guns were even that good, they'd take them too.
Land Speeder Storm Scouts that can pinch objectives and sit on them with ridiculous cover saves, disrupt DS'ers, blind entire units, provide heavy flamers, and come in about 100 points.
Thunderfire Cannons that makes a mockery of the low armour save infantry you seem to make such a big deal of, and knocks scoring units off cover and wins games.
Tau and Space Wolf Battle Brother allies.
Ironclad Dreadnoughts in a DP.
For various roles, as the recent thread I posted investigated, Sternguard.


RW gets:

SOD.
PFG.
Shroud.
Confused and unoptimal BK's.

No where in my post did I mention CC as a staple of the meta. You have failed to demonstrate how quantitatively better WS lists are, considering they die just as fast to the same threats RW do. An additional squad of bikes isn't going to help you.

You act like its a big deal and is worth missing out on 20% more firepower and double the range at which to use it effectively.

KWS can take punches where RW crumbles. KWS doesn't have a SOD or Shroud that anchors your entire list. Losing a unit like Black Knights is potentially game ending, not so much for a BCSGG squad which is 30%~ cheaper for the same ranged effectiveness, which as I have said is objectively better because you use it inherently more.

An additional squad of bikes will make all the difference. That's nine extra AP2 shots on one turn and 6 in the following, and another unit that can steal objectives at the last second and pump lead into units.

RW do die just as fast as KWS, true. But KWS has more models, more list backbone, and actually has AA defense. I count forth time we've ignored the prospect of AA.

With luck, maybe you won't ignore half the points made in this post. And please don't make misguided assumptions about what I do or would do.

You know I just read through this thread and quite frankly its a bit ridculous. There is a lot of petty back and forth going on here with mildly valid points thrown in; between people who think they are having a serious conversation, but really are talking about who has the best made up rules for a game of plastic space man doll toys.

There are two problems going on here.
Mr. Omega your problem is that you came to a topic that is clearly about how to get the best out of a chapter that some are feeling "glass half-empty" about. Rather than recognizing the fact that the topic has the scope of staying within confines of "lets figure out what works," you are essentially telling people that they need to codex jump now, because they are all idiots, spacessssshhh marinez iz bettr!!! Which people tend not to appreciate.
Now style of presentation aside, you make several good points. grav guns are powerful, white scars are very good. You made this point in many ways using numbers, using opinions, using mathhammer (which is not the same as using real statistics but ill cut you a break there.) but in so doing you have framed your argument "are grav gun white scars better than ravenwing, yes or no? If no refer to all my points which i've made in succinct little easily digestible sound bites, then reconsider the aforementioned question. if yes then why don't you drop $1000 on a new army, or play with the new codex cause the investment you've made in your current army is worthless stupidity."
If you had instead made your point saying, "i think ravenwing can benefit from new space marine allies with grav guns look how good they are," then you would have been addressing the point of the thread better and not gotten such a negative reaction.

I know nothing about you, your experiences, the kind of player you are, how much you value good paint jobs, what you consider part of the hobby, or how you vote. But i know that by being a little less flippant and snide in how you addressed a rather tender spot in the hearts of many dark angel players, you would have gotten a better reaction. I wish you good luck with your white scars, clearly they are run by a general who will squeeze every ounce of efficiency out of them. May you win your next tournament by a wide margin.

I plan on picking up a DA army, because i love the look. I figure if i like the rules i'll run with codex: DA, if not, i'll use them as counts as C:SM until their codex gets revamped in 7th ed.

So, can anyone point me to some good websites or blogs with info and tips on how to do a Ravenwing army???? No one around here plays it, and I've never seen it in action so no clue how it works.

General Hobbs wrote:


So, can anyone point me to some good websites or blogs with info and tips on how to do a Ravenwing army???? No one around here plays it, and I've never seen it in action so no clue how it works.

Depends on what you really wanna do... if you want to go all RW bikes... consider the truly awesome firepowah from the Standard of Devestation (SOD):

 Mannahnin wrote:

Every bike unit with a single model within 6" of the standard bearer quadruples their firepower from over 12" away. In a focused Ravenwing army with a lot of bikes (say, 30+), that takes you from (for example) 30-odd twin-linked bolter shots into the enemy on turn 1 from outside charge range, to 120+ twin-linked bolter shots into the enemy on turn 1 from outside charge range. 12" Scout + 12" move + 24" full firepower with Salvo on the Relentless model = you can hit anywhere on the table unless your opponent is hiding out of LOS or has put a sacrificial screen way far forward (by infiltrating, generally, to actually prevent your Scout + move + 24" range from easily reaching his back table edge), or perhaps is a Grey Knight player who didn't just take Coteaz and/or Draigo, so has a normal character with the option and took Servo Skulls to block your Scout redploys.

Those 120-odd bolters get even scarier when the unit/s being hit have been clipped by a Rad grenade and are at -1 Toughness. The Ravenwing alpha strike is serious pain for a lot of armies.

Gonna have to throw my .02 in here.

S5 rending might not sound amazing, but think about hitting a unit after lighting them up with plasma talons, then either dropped T by one (ID anything T3) or against marines drop their WS and I by one. You're now hitting on 3s (against marines here), wounding on 3s with rending, after a HoW attack. If they survive you hit and run (autopass with banner) then do it again.

Sure WS has H&R, but they cannot utilize it as well as RW can. The autopass is incredible. It assures me that I can hide from helldrakes, marker lights, etc. and still use my SoD.

All this talk about 2 RWCS and not much about the 2nd HQ. A ML2 Librarian taking Telepathy is so underrated. You don't need divination with RW. I'd even consider a Chaplain on a bike if you are determined to make a RWCS assaulty.

DW Knights are amazing by the way. If you're letting Firewarriros rip them apart (which they will) then you aren't using your SoD on the right targets or you've got terrible placement, which you shouldn't with all those homers around.

If I'm getting into DW here I can't forget Mortis Contemptors, or even regular Mortis dreads. Regular terminators alone can give you some nice TL heavy weapon shots, and with homers and DWA you have full control of when they arrive.

And finally, Land Speeder spam is awesome

Man O man I hope the rumor of the fallen supplement is true, I guess what I really hope is for GW to just breath a little more new life into the DA so we don't feel like a test tube baby.

 Solosam47 wrote:
Man O man I hope the rumor of the fallen supplement is true, I guess what I really hope is for GW to just breath a little more new life into the DA so we don't feel like a test tube baby.

Wouldn't that be a CSM supplement?