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On a completely irrelevant note I can't shake the idea that the DA Techmarines were all out for a smoke when they were handing out the toys back on Mars

GEQ-4+svEQ die to bolters like babies anyway. Instant death has a very specific use against specific units, and isn't always going to occur in the first place.

But what's the point mentioning this, you've already ignored it twice, and the fact that you were objectively wrong about them being mathematically better at killing MEQ and TEQ. Average 2 more 40 point kills is not a 'marginal increase'.

Specific units being Paladins and Wraiths, both huge threats and relatively common. I was talking about Greater Daemons, or is Flying Circus not a thing where you play? Without Grav-amps, grav guns against vehicles is a toss up at most, while plasma remains effective against anything up to AV12.

A devastating threat range of 30''. They can fire from the middle of the board and with 3 shots. That means they're capable of neutralizing vehicles, abusing factors to avoid being charged, and stay out of rapid fire range, amongst other things. They can shave half the wounds off a Riptide at that distance.

I'm not sure which codex you are reading, but in mine its says grav guns have an 18" range, not 30". How are you avoiding getting charged from 18" away or even staying out of rapid fire range?

You don't walk into a 'tactics' forum and boast about how RW is the best thing since sliced bread only to say 'well muh its not a tournament list'.

The only comparison I've been making is to a Codex: SM biker armies.

You made out that ignores cover was too circumstantial to be afraid of. A 210 point unit is not half as much of a loss as 256-378 point BK unit with as only just as much firepower or even less.

It's still your main teeth unit dead, regardless. Again, RW have ways to mitigate this that WS don't.

Analogy is anything but off point. Focus is the name of the game. The entire reason people take the SOD is because it provides raw, focused firepower that annihilates when you exploit Tacticals with it in a gunline, you don't see people parading C:SM Tactical Squads as being better because they might be marginally better at something like escaping CC or challenges.

SoD really only works with Ravenwing or dakka Raiders, because tacticals don't have the mobility or survivability to exploit it.

Strawman harder. Of course I'm not going to take one unit of BCSGG's, I could take two, and by default troops are going to be KWS Grav Gun Bikers, which are basically a straight upgrade over RWAS' besides 'useless teleport homers. Allow me to remind you that you said that yourself.

Two WS command squads seems quite effective, but still suffer from the same weaknesses as any biker army.

I'm not talking about the Shroud, duh. I'm talking about the Knights and how without the 2+ cover save given by the shroud during turboboosting they are just T5 Marines against small arms.

Only T5 Marines with possibly FNP... Tell me again how this is weak against small arms?

Oh, so we're now back to the pretence that this is a tournament level discussion.

What does KWS have?

AA that doesn't suck.
Flyers that don't suck.
Bikers that are a straight upgrade over RWAS. If your plasma guns were even that good, they'd take them too.
Land Speeder Storm Scouts that can pinch objectives and sit on them with ridiculous cover saves, disrupt DS'ers, blind entire units, provide heavy flamers, and come in about 100 points.
Thunderfire Cannons that makes a mockery of the low armour save infantry you seem to make such a big deal of, and knocks scoring units off cover and wins games.
Tau and Space Wolf Battle Brother allies.
Ironclad Dreadnoughts in a DP.
For various roles, as the recent thread I posted investigated, Sternguard.

The inclusion of which would cease to make your WS army a biker army.

RW gets:

SOD.
PFG.
Shroud.
Confused and unoptimal BK's.

I can assure you my confused BKs will roll any White Scars every time.

You act like its a big deal and is worth missing out on 20% more firepower and double the range at which to use it effectively.

KWS can take punches where RW crumbles. KWS doesn't have a SOD or Shroud that anchors your entire list. Losing a unit like Black Knights is potentially game ending, not so much for a BCSGG squad which is 30%~ cheaper for the same ranged effectiveness, which as I have said is objectively better because you use it inherently more.

An additional squad of bikes will make all the difference. That's nine extra AP2 shots on one turn and 6 in the following, and another unit that can steal objectives at the last second and pump lead into units.

RW do die just as fast as KWS, true. But KWS has more models, more list backbone, and actually has AA defense. I count forth time we've ignored the prospect of AA.

With luck, maybe you won't ignore half the points made in this post. And please don't make misguided assumptions about what I do or would do.

This is essentially the crux of your argument, which is WS can get grav guns and an extra squad so they are better, hurr durr. I'll concede that WS are better at shooting certain targets (namely Riptides and Wraithknights) but fail horribly at others (Greater Daemons, IG. Dark Eldar). The problem with the WS list is that it's a middle-tier shooty list in a meta where top-tier shooty lists will destroy you, and is too ineffective in CC to utilise their mobility fully. The advantage of RW is the ability to remain effective in both phases. Including AA dilutes your list to some extent, which means less angry bikers punching your face in turn 2.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polythemus wrote:You know I just read through this thread and quite frankly its a bit ridculous. There is a lot of petty back and forth going on here with mildly valid points thrown in; between people who think they are having a serious conversation, but really are talking about who has the best made up rules for a game of plastic space man doll toys.

Best post here. Look, 40k is serious business okay?

Haight wrote:I plan on picking up a DA army, because i love the look. I figure if i like the rules i'll run with codex: DA, if not, i'll use them as counts as C:SM until their codex gets revamped in 7th ed.

Best of both worlds eh?

General Hobbs wrote:

So, can anyone point me to some good websites or blogs with info and tips on how to do a Ravenwing army???? No one around here plays it, and I've never seen it in action so no clue how it works.

PM sent.

Solosam47 wrote:Man O man I hope the rumor of the fallen supplement is true, I guess what I really hope is for GW to just breath a little more new life into the DA so we don't feel like a test tube baby.

DA still have some tricks up their sleeve!

Mythantor wrote:On a completely irrelevant note I can't shake the idea that the DA Techmarines were all out for a smoke when they were handing out the toys back on Mars

Well in the new fluff nobody in the chapter trusts them after their Martian excursion so I'm sure the inner circle just keep it all for themselves.

BronzeJon wrote:
Stubborn tac squads? Your whole army has stubborn in DA, it's called grim resolve..

The irony is that stubborn is a disadvantage when you have ATSKNF. You usually want to break out of an assault and run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
White Scars are still inferior in every way.

Could you elaborate on this please? I'd like to hear your thoughts as to why this is the case.

Syphid wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:
Man O man I hope the rumor of the fallen supplement is true, I guess what I really hope is for GW to just breath a little more new life into the DA so we don't feel like a test tube baby.

Wouldn't that be a CSM supplement?

That was my thinking considering Inner Circle gives PE:CSM and there's no reason for DA not to have PE against their Fallen brethren.

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:

Syphid wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:
Man O man I hope the rumor of the fallen supplement is true, I guess what I really hope is for GW to just breath a little more new life into the DA so we don't feel like a test tube baby.

Wouldn't that be a CSM supplement?

That was my thinking considering Inner Circle gives PE:CSM and there's no reason for DA not to have PE against their Fallen brethren.

Could be a mix of both

I have been playing RW for a ew months now. I love the idea and fluff of RW, game wise i can point out there flaws (or what is lacking from my stand point).


RWCS= I only use it for the banner, this is always my enemys target i maybe get one round of dakka out of it.

RWBK= This is RW death star unit and of course the first thing people kill. Even with a darkshourd and a libby casting Invsiable they still die like a normal biker. CC they can put a hurting on most things.

Darkshourd= Always a good choice. no upgrades.

RW Bikers= They do not have skilled rider, they do have scout and Hit and Run. EZ to kill if not around the banner they are nothing but a normal biker.

Sammy=not great not bad if i could creat a commander that unlocked bikes as troops id much rather do so.

RW Flying= Do i need to say anything? I mean you can take one with the bolter and try to hit rear armor.

Over all RW is cool fun and if put into the hands of a really good player can do damage. RW is good but you have to keep key untis alive for them to really shine. Once those units are dead RW starts to lose its punch.


Now my main question is GreenWing, Ive tried to create a few list. I like the idea of the banner in a LR, my question is this,

Can i take a LR with the following inside.

Libby PFG
Tech Marine
Command unti with dakka banner

Floating behind the LR is the darkshourd, around the Darkshorud i will be rhino spamming. or two Darkshourds followed by the Command Raider and some rhinos. I will be spamming Marines.

Will i get the boon from the PFG while the Libby is inside and will it spread to the Darkshourd and the rhinos? And can i have them all start inside the LR.

In the last faq, the force generator only works on a foot model outside a vehicle.

Edit: Oh, and the whole thing about wanting to run away never really made that much sense to me. If I'm on an objective, odds are I don't want to run away. Nothing I hate more than falling back on the last turn when my unit was on an objective and losing because of that. Choosing to run away doesn't exist anymore unless you take calgar anyways.

Still worth taking, can i start with them already in the land raider?

Yes, but then only the landraider has the 4+i save while the librarian is inside.

 scuddman wrote:
Yes, but then only the landraider has the 4+i save while the librarian is inside.

I don't believe this is true. I think only the unit inside has the 4++, and, since it can't be targeted, is being wasted until the LR is killed or the unit gets out. I don't think the bubble goes out to the LR if the guys are inside. I may be mistaken though.

- VardenV2

The Power field generator only affects the unit inside of the transport. to get around that you get it on a Libby with a bike and have him sandwiched between 3 land raiders or following rightbehind one so that the enemy cant see him

 Ninjacommando wrote:
The Power field generator only affects the unit inside of the transport. to get around that you get it on a Libby with a bike and have him sandwiched between 3 land raiders or following rightbehind one so that the enemy cant see him

Ok ill go this route, since i already ave a libby on bike with a PFG for my RW.

Thanks,

What a complete mess this thread is 0_o
Not even sure where to start really.

The main catch seems to be knights vs grav bikes.
To be honest, the main idea for both of these units is to hunt down high priority targets that will cause you issues.

That grav gun will be doing far more than plasma since the targets your hunting will usually be high T, great save, ++ save and will either want to drag you into combat or shoot at you.

No matter how you cut it, that grav gun puts out alot more shots at range, which is what matter since it cuts any threat of return fire.
Why are people on about targets with bad armour saves?
If people are firing plasma / grav at models with poor saves, your doing it wrong anyway and need a slap

They are designed to hunt heavy armour (+ and AV)
Killing basic troops should be left to other units.



Also, CC aint too great in this edition.
So what if the knights are better in combat?
Why the feth would you want an expensive unit thrown into combat with anything?
It will either be a large tarpit of basic troops, or elite troops that will kill your knights anyway.

40k is gone of the days of mixed role units.
Anti-tank and anti-horde (shooting and combat) are very different.
You really want to be using units that are dedicated to those roles instead of going for a half arsed result at something they should not be doing in the 1st place.

Thats like firing heavy bolters at armour and lascannons at troops



To be honest, i play a mix of armies including tau, daemons, Iron hands, nids, and no matter what way you cut it, i rather face those knights because i know i can tear them apart with less losses.

That amazing cover save?
Ill just remove it then shoot the unit with small arms or throw a FMC into combat with it and it means nothing anymore.

They have no real edge over normal bikes that actually mean anything.

Grav guns are pretty much the sole reason normal bikes beat ravenwing bikes.
Its sad to say since ive allways loves DA, but the simple addition of those guns really does make a massive difference.

I think the army is great still, people can hate all they want. The army offers some of the best IC's in the game. Azreal making every unit on the board leadership 10. Making termies and bikes troops.
Black Knights.
Dakka banner.
The fact you can effectively make the whole army benefit from FNP ( T5 if you on bikes )
Sammeal
Terminator death wing assault? Combined with a unit of bikes that scout moved and started on the board. (Yes i know you cant do a full death-wing army assault, as half units have to start on the board. please spare me... its not that big of a deal)
45/55 point attack bikes as troops
POWER FIELD GENERATORS
And frankly, one of my favorite tourney wins was when i ran 3 land raider crusaders, venerable, banner inside one. Tech on bike with PFG. This list was brutal.

The only bad things about Dark angels is , no thunder fire cannon. No anti vehicle - cost effective flyers.
But thats why you ally space marines...

I keep hearing about grav guns... What good are those against a deamon army or a tyranid army. Not a 4 DP, any tard can play army, but a hoard army. Go ahead wound on a six... Black knights get 2 shots, twin linked, ap2 guns also. That wound on a 2 most times. And have a grenade shot that will lower your Toughness. Wraiths, Paladins, Fiends... all Instant killed now by black knights....

Space marines are inferior to dark angels for the sole reason... Anything you can make troops in that army will get instant killed on 3+ (and most cases 2+) by a helldrakes (which can burn for rerolls 1 time per game and you simply cant spread out enough to not feel the pain of the template). 2-3 hell drake armies are going to have these boards crying about how terrible the new space marines are soon enough. I like space marines i really do. I will play the book, but superior to dark angels? I think not.

I keep hearing about grav guns... What good are those against a deamon army or a tyranid army. Not a 4 DP, any tard can play army, but a hoard army. Go ahead wound on a six... Black knights get 2 shots, twin linked, ap2 guns also. That wound on a 2 most times. And have a grenade shot that will lower your Toughness. Wraiths, Paladins, Fiends... all Instant killed now by black knights....

Grav guns will murder the bigger tyranid gribblies and Demon Princes which is what you should be firing them at anyway.

Any tard can play army as you say, but only a real tard thinks a grav gun is useless against nids and the bigger daemons lol.

You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point.
You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for.

Thats like bitching because you cant kill a land raider with your bolter.


They are for armour and elite units, shooting anything less is just a waste.




If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn.



Again, weapons perform a specific role in each army.
Plasma's do feth all against AV13 and nothing to AV14.
Which means your having to rely on single shot per turn meltas.
Or your amazing grena.... oh, wait, they do nothing to armour.

 Jackal wrote:
Any tard can play army as you say, but only a real tard thinks a grav gun is useless against nids and the bigger daemons lol.

You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point.
You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for.

Thats like bitching because you cant kill a land raider with your bolter.


They are for armour and elite units, shooting anything less is just a waste.




If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn.



Again, weapons perform a specific role in each army.
Plasma's do feth all against AV13 and nothing to AV14.
Which means your having to rely on single shot per turn meltas.
Or your amazing grena.... oh, wait, they do nothing to armour.

Och wheesht wee man, your banter is rubbish. Black knights command squad still gets 4++(PFG) then 5+ (FNP) against ignore cover shooting then your riptide dies. And that is provided you go first, because if you don't, against RW, your riptide dies. Furthermore the vaunted WS command sqaud with grav guns dies even easier to the situation you described becasue they don't have a PFG.

Back under your bridge pal, trolling is only acceptable when its funny.

 Jackal wrote:
Any tard can play army as you say, but only a real tard thinks a grav gun is useless against nids and the bigger daemons lol.

You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point.
You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for.

Thats like bitching because you cant kill a land raider with your bolter.


They are for armour and elite units, shooting anything less is just a waste.




If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn.



Again, weapons perform a specific role in each army.
Plasma's do feth all against AV13 and nothing to AV14.
Which means your having to rely on single shot per turn meltas.
Or your amazing grena.... oh, wait, they do nothing to armour.

If you are making your comment towards me...

You prove my point of a tard who cant read i guess... Since you want to now act like a 3 year old and resort to making this personal..

I said Good luck with Grav guns against a Deamon army or tyranid army.."What good are those against a deamon army or a tyranid army. Not a 4 DP, any tard can play army, but a hoard army. " Lets focus on the deamon part for now....
I will elaborate and go slower for you. You see i am making reference to a Deamon hoard army, see how i said "Hoard army". That means a hoard, 4 deamon princes are not hoards. You see i said "not a 4 dp, any tard can play army", this means not a 4 deamon prince army.. Hence no deamon prince. I can only assume you see what i mean now, flamer.

Not once did i say Grav guns are useless against demon princes, hence why i said "good luck with 6's" . See this refers again, to a demon hoard army. Have you seen the book? Seekers, fiends, hounds, plague bearers, bloodletters.. There is quite a bit in that book, that is effective that has no armor save. Hence why i said you would need 6's and good luck.

Next time i suggest reading the post more carefully. And if you run 4 dp's and simply took offense to me making reference to a tard list... get over it.

Also, you make reference, "You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point, You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for. "
... and if the army is consistent of only basic troops? I assume you mean units with little to no save. Like a Deamon horde army... What happens when you face that? Are you suggesting you dont fire the guns at all? That just seems like a waste...

you also say " If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn."

ONCE AGAIN, you must of missed when i said you get FNP basically army wide. And since you are T5, and a rip tide can only get to str9 ... you would get the FNP save. You also must of missed i said you can get power field generators. See those give 4++ invuls to anyone within 3". You should take a closer look at the dark angels book, or again... read comments that are written more completely.

Or you can keep typing "what if scenarios" , that are inaccurate and simply making you look foolish.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mythantor wrote:

I keep hearing about grav guns... What good are those against a deamon army or a tyranid army. Not a 4 DP, any tard can play army, but a hoard army. Go ahead wound on a six... Black knights get 2 shots, twin linked, ap2 guns also. That wound on a 2 most times. And have a grenade shot that will lower your Toughness. Wraiths, Paladins, Fiends... all Instant killed now by black knights....

Grav guns will murder the bigger tyranid gribblies and Demon Princes which is what you should be firing them at anyway.

This i agree with, and i understand your point. But any range you get these into, if someone where to use a DP or a big Tyrannid MC you are now in charge range for any of their beast/cavalry units. 2 grav guns on a bike squad is what 6 shots? You would hit once if the dp was in the air, if you ground it first or shoot at a ground mc, you would hit it 4 times and wound 3 times. It would make 1 invul save and if DP consider the greater reward to reroll invuls, or 4+ fnp.

Now the faq for a command squad to have 5 grav guns has a much better chance. But again, you may kill one dp (if it is fielded), but you are surely dead by any counter charge.

Whats the big grav gun on the Devs? that has 5 shots and twin linked, 24 inch range. Much better odds. But i think this main topic was about grav guns on bikes vs black knights, which have twin linked shots so will hit more. But in the end will still be in the threat range of any counter charge unit.

Wow. This seems to have really gotten out of hand...

Both are good units when used right!

jamin484 wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Any tard can play army as you say, but only a real tard thinks a grav gun is useless against nids and the bigger daemons lol.

You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point.
You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for.

Thats like bitching because you cant kill a land raider with your bolter.


They are for armour and elite units, shooting anything less is just a waste.




If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn.



Again, weapons perform a specific role in each army.
Plasma's do feth all against AV13 and nothing to AV14.
Which means your having to rely on single shot per turn meltas.
Or your amazing grena.... oh, wait, they do nothing to armour.

Och wheesht wee man, your banter is rubbish. Black knights command squad still gets 4++(PFG) then 5+ (FNP) against ignore cover shooting then your riptide dies. And that is provided you go first, because if you don't, against RW, your riptide dies. Furthermore the vaunted WS command sqaud with grav guns dies even easier to the situation you described becasue they don't have a PFG.

Back under your bridge pal, trolling is only acceptable when its funny.

You're forgetting that the configuration you describe costs somewhere in the region of 400-500 points with a Shroud, PFG Libby on Bike, BK's, and SOD. And that's just to protect 5 guys, who still die like pansies to an FMC anyway.

A BCSGG squad costs 210 points, and can also take an Apothecary over one Grav Gun for a 5+ FNP. Yeah, it may not be a 4++, but your entire army doesn't crumble when it dies and it doesn't cost double the amount with 20% less effectiveness.

Tsilber wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Any tard can play army as you say, but only a real tard thinks a grav gun is useless against nids and the bigger daemons lol.

You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point.
You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for.

Thats like bitching because you cant kill a land raider with your bolter.


They are for armour and elite units, shooting anything less is just a waste.




If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn.



Again, weapons perform a specific role in each army.
Plasma's do feth all against AV13 and nothing to AV14.
Which means your having to rely on single shot per turn meltas.
Or your amazing grena.... oh, wait, they do nothing to armour.

If you are making your comment towards me...

You prove my point of a tard who cant read i guess... Since you want to now act like a 3 year old and resort to making this personal..

I said Good luck with Grav guns against a Deamon army or tyranid army.."What good are those against a deamon army or a tyranid army. Not a 4 DP, any tard can play army, but a hoard army. " Lets focus on the deamon part for now....
I will elaborate and go slower for you. You see i am making reference to a Deamon hoard army, see how i said "Hoard army". That means a hoard, 4 deamon princes are not hoards. You see i said "not a 4 dp, any tard can play army", this means not a 4 deamon prince army.. Hence no deamon prince. I can only assume you see what i mean now, flamer.

Not once did i say Grav guns are useless against demon princes, hence why i said "good luck with 6's" . See this refers again, to a demon hoard army. Have you seen the book? Seekers, fiends, hounds, plague bearers, bloodletters.. There is quite a bit in that book, that is effective that has no armor save. Hence why i said you would need 6's and good luck.

Next time i suggest reading the post more carefully. And if you run 4 dp's and simply took offense to me making reference to a tard list... get over it.

Also, you make reference, "You successfully managed to prove my point for me in showing the stupidity of someone trying to prove a useless point, You dont shoot basic troops with them, thats what small arms fire is for. "
... and if the army is consistent of only basic troops? I assume you mean units with little to no save. Like a Deamon horde army... What happens when you face that? Are you suggesting you dont fire the guns at all? That just seems like a waste...

you also say " If you want fun though, that would be a unit of 5 path finders lighting up a unit of knights then laughing as a riptide drops a pinpoint shot on them and kills them all in a single turn."

ONCE AGAIN, you must of missed when i said you get FNP basically army wide. And since you are T5, and a rip tide can only get to str9 ... you would get the FNP save. You also must of missed i said you can get power field generators. See those give 4++ invuls to anyone within 3". You should take a closer look at the dark angels book, or again... read comments that are written more completely.

Or you can keep typing "what if scenarios" , that are inaccurate and simply making you look foolish.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mythantor wrote:

I keep hearing about grav guns... What good are those against a deamon army or a tyranid army. Not a 4 DP, any tard can play army, but a hoard army. Go ahead wound on a six... Black knights get 2 shots, twin linked, ap2 guns also. That wound on a 2 most times. And have a grenade shot that will lower your Toughness. Wraiths, Paladins, Fiends... all Instant killed now by black knights....

Grav guns will murder the bigger tyranid gribblies and Demon Princes which is what you should be firing them at anyway.

This i agree with, and i understand your point. But any range you get these into, if someone where to use a DP or a big Tyrannid MC you are now in charge range for any of their beast/cavalry units. 2 grav guns on a bike squad is what 6 shots? You would hit once if the dp was in the air, if you ground it first or shoot at a ground mc, you would hit it 4 times and wound 3 times. It would make 1 invul save and if DP consider the greater reward to reroll invuls, or 4+ fnp.

Now the faq for a command squad to have 5 grav guns has a much better chance. But again, you may kill one dp (if it is fielded), but you are surely dead by any counter charge.

Whats the big grav gun on the Devs? that has 5 shots and twin linked, 24 inch range. Much better odds. But i think this main topic was about grav guns on bikes vs black knights, which have twin linked shots so will hit more. But in the end will still be in the threat range of any counter charge unit.

The only thing these 'Hoard' armies are accomplishing is hoarding overrated effectiveness.



But otherwise:

1) Twinlinked Plasma Talons are less effective than Grav Guns against 2+ and 3+ saves in all instances, hands down. I did the math on the last page, it takes 7 plasma talons minimum to have more devastating firepower than a BCSGG with 5 GG's. And you're still only half as effective at range if you're within 9''.

2) You're saying that against certain armies and very specific units Grav Guns have no use (which is inherent because its not their role to combat those units, as others have said) and then you're also saying that we're coming up with 'what if' scenarios. Think of it this way, at a tournament right now if you do at least moderately well there is a very good chance you'll be playing at least one Serpent Spam or Tau list with Riptides.

3) Its not FNP army wide unless you huddle every unit within 6'' of another unit. Practically speaking, against a number of opponent's that's going to be suicide and there will be many reasons why you will not want to do that.

4) If the enemy army is consistent with low armour save basic troops and has not a single DP you laugh in their face. That's just as weird and bad a scenario for your 42 point BK's that only gain the benefit of wounding on 2's over their bolters, and still kill themselves with every 1 in 20~ or so shots.

5) Don't take blind guesses at what would happen to support an argument. Use maths and common sense. BK's are going to be a lot closer than GG Bikers against DP's and FMC's, and they're going to get slaughtered just as easily most of the time. Plus, they're not all bundled in one nice neat tight area.

I'm getting a bit weary of this thread so I'm going to come to a few conclusions:

-RW isn't inferior to the point of being uncompetitive compared to KWS. It isn't however superior in every way, and they both have very good merits for being run independently.
-RW and KWS work well together, more than anything else.
-BK's fulfill the role of a versatile shock unit, but aren't as good spammed as BCSGG bikers because through spamming the latter accomplishes the goal (slaughtering nasty MC's and hard infantry) a fair amount better.



Also guys, please drop the name calling.

1) hurray for math hammer... I was speaking of models with no armor save. Volume of fire twin linked. 12 plasma gun shots rerolling hits Vs 15 grav shots. I understand 15 grav shots are better at selective targets, never debated that. But plasma shots are more effective for most things you see on a table.

2) Id love to face a tau list, or serpent spam again. I do very well against these internet, cookie cutter list. Frankly im not impressed by them. But if those list went first, grav units are done, so would black knight units be. 48" range. no bike could get close. Best chance is to scout and go first.

3) You are wrong on the FNP within 6"... Im starting to think i am imagining the banner i keep referring to.... Anyway Dark angels can have up to 3 command squads with fnp if they like ( 4 if points allowed). Or they can have simply 1 banner giving all units within 12" fnp. Pretty easy to mix units and get every unit within range, not huddling with in 6". and still set yourself up for future tactics and move effectively across the board.

4) again, not sure of your play level. and "without the risk of sounding like an ass"....the fact you would write an army off the minute you saw it fielded must mean you are either a sheer pro at this game, or over confident internet warrior who cant play. I play without any dp.. However In a single dp list. Id just reserve him and fly him on away from all the grav gun or plasma nastiness. The rest of the army of Deamons can effectively handle the board. 20 seekers, 20 flesh hounds, 9 plague drones, to name a few units, are all more effective than a single DP of equal cost. But this is neither here nor their... Fact remain Grav guns are useless against 90% of the deamons. (sure they are not meant for them, but a good Deamon player will never let those grav guns near a DP... so your choices of targets would be "no armor save, 5++ deamon units.

5) no idea what your talking about here.. but I dont rely on math hammer... math hammer armies never work nor do the scenarios in a game. Math cant account for play style, play level, combinations, and set ups. Not to mention crap or Godlike dice.



Are Grav guns better at select targets, sure. Are plasma better all around, i would say yes.

Grav guns can never ever Instant kill anything. Plasma Guns can with the genades the units get.

Do space marine bikes have anything to help on the way in to charge? not really, do dark angels? YES the special grenades. ( I dont buy for one second, that units that are multi effective, like shooting and hand to hand, are terrible. 4 attacks on the charge + rad or stasis grenade is pretty damn good)

Both can attach IC's that have eternal warrior, both can get hit and run.

But as for winning a game on objectives. Do space marine bikes who are troops have anything to help them against ignores cover ap 3? NO. Do Dark angels troop bikes? YES.

Sorry man, space marine bikes compared to Dark angel bikes. over all, effectiveness and survivability. Dark angels win mate.


Back to the main Topic of why this was started. Dark Angels are still very much effective. lots of tricks and tactics. Lots of Synergy. The New Space marines book is Awesome, but it did not knock Dark Angels out of the game.

Tsilber wrote:
1) hurray for math hammer... I was speaking of models with no armor save. Volume of fire twin linked. 12 plasma gun shots rerolling hits Vs 15 grav shots. I understand 15 grav shots are better at selective targets, never debated that. But plasma shots are more effective for most things you see on a table.

Not really. MC's, 2+ armour saves and 3+ armour saves account for a lot of what you see. Against hordes (which I'm not joking about as being overrated) you switch to TL bolters, and kill on 3's or 4's, probably the former anyway.

12 PG shots means either A) you're not taking RW GLs, which you don't get to boast about if you're not using or B) you're using a unit that's about 100 points or so more expensive.

Please state numbers for every calculation and statement of that sort.

2) Id love to face a tau list, or serpent spam again. I do very well against these internet, cookie cutter list. Frankly im not impressed by them. But if those list went first, grav units are done, so would black knight units be. 48" range. no bike could get close. Best chance is to scout and go first.

Scout behind LOS breakers, outflank, use common sense, you can avoid being mullered by those armies. Go read the tournament results for NOVA open and the recent one in the UK with loads of guys where there were 7~ Eldar players in the top 15.

3) You are wrong on the FNP within 6"... Im starting to think i am imagining the banner i keep referring to.... Anyway Dark angels can have up to 3 command squads with fnp if they like ( 4 if points allowed). Or they can have simply 1 banner giving all units within 12" fnp. Pretty easy to mix units and get every unit within range, not huddling with in 6". and still set yourself up for future tactics and move effectively across the board.

Yes, but SOD is basically a no brainer choice anyway and taking 3 FNP banners isn't the most advisable course of action at all when you weigh in points consumption and inefficiency and the fact that in order to survive against small arms (a 3+ and a 5+ FNP is still susceptible to small arms) you'll probably want to turbo boost to get that safe 2+ cover.

4) again, not sure of your play level. and "without the risk of sounding like an ass"....the fact you would write an army off the minute you saw it fielded must mean you are either a sheer pro at this game, or over confident internet warrior who cant play.

Uh, ok whatever you completely missed the point of my post and carried over your insult from retaliating against Jackal because I pointed out that your post would be easier to read with better grammar. That's not meant to be offensive. That's a friendly tip.

I play without any dp.. However In a single dp list. Id just reserve him and fly him on away from all the grav gun or plasma nastiness.

At which point he gets grounded and point blanked with fire from the bulk of your army.


The rest of the army of Deamons can effectively handle the board. 20 seekers, 20 flesh hounds, 9 plague drones, to name a few units, are all more effective than a single DP of equal cost. But this is neither here nor their... Fact remain Grav guns are useless against 90% of the deamons. (sure they are not meant for them, but a good Deamon player will never let those grav guns near a DP... so your choices of targets would be "no armor save, 5++ deamon units.

Its still just one army, and DP's are exceptionally common anyway. 'X player would do it better and avoid Y' doesn't constitute much of an argument at all and when the unit in question only works when you get in close proximity, its a straight up fallacy. GGB's also have a 30'' threat range (12'' movement + 18'' range GG's) so unless its on the other side of a 6x4 board you're almost always within a turn's range.

5) no idea what your talking about here.. but I dont rely on math hammer... math hammer armies never work nor do the scenarios in a game. Math cant account for play style, play level, combinations, and set ups. Not to mention crap or Godlike dice.

People who do not play with regard for Mathhammer are the sort of people that footslog Marines and say 'hey, I don't care if your army is statistically set up to annihilate mine, I'm just going to count on you rolling abysmally, and me rolling 6's on every run result'. I've seen people who actually hold that mindset.

Fact of the matter is, in any game of chance on average, it is the better choice to take the choice with the highest probability of occuring. This is a basic principle of 40k. Mathhammer armies do work.

Math-hammer can be used to account for playstyle of your opponent by looking at averages across the board.
Play level is irrelevant during list building. You can only take a rough guess at any time so dwelling on it is pointless- you can't help it.
Math-hammer can factor in defensive combinations such as FNP and armour saves, and whatnot easily, as well as your own one-two punch combo effectiveness.
Set up of your opponent is purely down to circumstance, and you don't need a calculator to figure out that 12'' deployment + 24'' movement + scout and 18'' range results in greater than a 48'' threat range in a first turn alpha strike against ones you can expect like gunlines.
People who rely on crap or godlike dice to win their every battle tend not to do well at 40k.


Are Grav guns better at select targets, sure. Are plasma better all around, i would say yes.

Well you're mathematically and statistically out of favour.

Grav guns can never ever Instant kill anything. Plasma Guns can with the genades the units get.

The grenades you didn't take in your unit with 12 plasma talon shots. Instant killing is a nice niche, but it doesn't always occur (remember, crap dice, you can't use averages) and I'd argue that 20% more effective firepower against the majority of what you do see is worth it, especially for killing units like Riptides where if they don't die you're potentially losing a handful of models.

Do space marine bikes have anything to help on the way in to charge? not really, do dark angels? YES the special grenades. ( I dont buy for one second, that units that are multi effective, like shooting and hand to hand, are terrible. 4 attacks on the charge + rad or stasis grenade is pretty damn good)

3-5 dead MEQ. Average, naff when compared to most CC units of the same points bracket. Anything BK's can charge that would beat them is the sort of thing KWS wouldn't charge anyway, and anything they can charge is the sort of thing KWS could probably get away with charging too. Plus, at the end of the day you've got hit and run on both units.

Both can attach IC's that have eternal warrior, both can get hit and run.

But as for winning a game on objectives. Do space marine bikes who are troops have anything to help them against ignores cover ap 3? NO. Do Dark angels troop bikes? YES.

As I've already established the probability of getting that bonus against the ignores cover weapons on every unit is unlikely, KWS get an extra bike squad anyway and for all the common occurrences of ignores cover are they do not come in large batches most of the time. It is often hard to achieve the result, and your opponent isn't going to wipe off all your bikes in one turn using them unless you make grave tactical errors. Outflanking assures your unit will survive against any army that doesn't have interceptor, which you can avoid using LOS anyway.

Sorry man, space marine bikes compared to Dark angel bikes. over all, effectiveness and survivability. Dark angels win mate.

Next time try not to come to this conclusion by breaking a basic tenet of 40k and using leaps of logic that make little to no sense, disregarding any strengths of the opposition.


PS, when you have to start a sentence with "without risk of sounding like an ASS", chances are you are sounding like such.

P.S, you look like you are ten years old when you take a friendly tip as an insult and essentially say 'hurr durr leaps of logic I'm right you're wrong case closed'. This is not how you debate.

Back to the main Topic of why this was started. Dark Angels are still very much effective. lots of tricks and tactics. Lots of Synergy. The New Space marines book is Awesome, but it did not knock Dark Angels out of the game.

The thing people seem to be forgetting here is that against everything that isn't an MC, plasma is better when comapring equal shots. grav gets more shots and that helps bring down bigger targets. That's really the only difference to me.

The other thing is that the knights are way better at wounding in cc. They are not a dedicated cc unit, but the point is that they never get hit back. The shoot, maybe don't kill the MC but it is now -1T, -1I, -1WS etc. Bikes hammer of wrath (wounding easier now) and most likely hit first if not simultaneously, str 5 and rending. After all that I would assume that riptide or w/e is dead. It only has to fail 1-2 saves and it's down because the plasma whittled it away. Now my Knights consolidate and slingshot around cover or towards the next unit they want to go kill.

Knights are a "better" unit for almost everything but the grav guns seem to be much better at the monster hunting role. However, the knights are more expensive, so you get what you pay for.

- VardenV2

Man you truly are hypocritical, "dont call names", "not trying to be an ass"... not to mention your acting like "agree with what i say or i will talk circles around you and try to bury you with meaningless banter"...

Try to stick to the topic.. I could go back and forth with you on this But surely cant win an argument with a pro player who can look at a board and win. And also assume to know what is going to happen each turn and each time he picks up the dice. (NOTE: This was sarcasm, im thinking more along the lines of that "over confident internet warrior who cant play" i mentioned earlier.

NOW try to stop flaming so much....

Back to the topic. Lets debate Grav Vs. Plasma.

5 RW Command 4 plasma 1 grenade 1 apothecary 230 points Vs 5 SM Command, 4 gravs, 1 apothecary. 210 points

Taking into account losing a model per turn, full games length.

AV 10. plasma, hands down, has better chance to destroy with less shots.

AV 11 plasma

AV 12 Plasma

AV 13 HP3, Plasma would need 3 6's to destroy, Grav gun would need 2 6's. I guess Grav guns

AV 14 plasma cant touch. Grav Gun wins hands down.

Armor 3+ T4 with single wound. 12 grav shots = 8 hits = 5.X wounds. 8 plasma twin linked = 7 hits = 6 wounds.
plasma Wins.

Armor 3+ with T4 multi wound. Plasma Wins, specially if -t Grenade hits.

Armor 3 with T5, plasma wins

Armor 3 with T6, Plasma wins (grenade lowers T to a 5 so plasma still wounds on 2's)

Armor 3, with T7 or T8. Grav wins.

Armor 2, with t4. Grav wins

Armor 2, with t4 multi wounds. Plasma wins with the grenade reducing T.

Armor 2 with T5, Grav

Armor 2 with T6 Grav

Armor 2 with T7 Grav

Armor 4, 5, 6 or no armor. Regardless of toughness (up to an 8) Plasma wins

Assaulting. The RW will have the upper hand on majority of targets as it will reduce the WS and I, or the toughness of the Enemy it assaults.

Being assaulted, grav Command unit takes 12 shots, hits twice. Ravenwing unit takes 8 shots hits twice. Tied.

As for combat, ravenwing command have rending hammers as well...

So decide as you see fit i guess.
Scenarios Grav wins: 6-7
Scenarios Plasma unit wins : 13-14
And yes you could say "well Grav guns are not meant for that or plasma is not meant for that". Fact is you have a far better chance of success if you can adapt to any and all situations... This rule applies to everything in life. Lets face it, unless you are someone who can assume to know everything is going to happen before it does... Games will sometimes not go the way you planned, units you wanted to shoot at might not be available. In most games against good players, you will not get that match up you want, you will not get your opponent to fall for each of your traps... Imporvise, Adapt, overcome. And RW plasma has a better over all chance.

So as i said before Sorry man, space marine bikes compared to Dark angel bikes. over all, effectiveness and survivability. Dark angels win mate.

"Next time try not to come to this conclusion by breaking a basic tenet of 40k and using leaps of logic that make little to no sense, disregarding any strengths of the opposition"
Was my break down above good enough for you or are you going to keep making lonnnngggg drawnnnn outtt boring remarks that require me to explain things in extreme detail for those that are slower...





But again, Dark Angels are still very effective and competitive.

EDIT: all my edits were to come up with different scenerios for the 2 squads. Please feel free to come up with some, and add em. Maybe this should of started its own discussion,.
EDIT: correction made on AV 13

Tsilber wrote:
Man you truly are hypocritical, "dont call names", "not trying to be an ass"... not to mention your acting like "agree with what i say or i will talk circles around you and try to bury you with meaningless banter"...

Hypocritical?


Ok, whatever. If you're too stubborn to accept that I'm not trying to perpetrate any nastiness against you and have a reasonable, adult and mature debate then fine.


Try to stick to the topic.. I could go back and forth with you on this But surely cant win an argument with a pro player who can look at a board and win. And also assume to know what is going to happen each turn and each time he picks up the dice. (NOTE: This was sarcasm, im thinking more along the lines of that "over confident internet warrior who cant play" i mentioned earlier.

NOW try to stop flaming so much....

But the entirety of the above paragraph constitutes Ad Hominem wherein you have insulted me and implied I am too big headed to realize that your opinion is so magnanimously better. Do you not realize how that is a double case of irony?

I am using logic, maths and reason to attempt to debate with you. I am not claiming to be a pro, just because I use these concepts does not mean I am trying to imitate a pro.

Back to the topic. Lets debate Grav Vs. Plasma.

5 RW Command 4 plasma 1 grenade 1 apothecary 230 points Vs 5 SM Command, 4 gravs, 1 apothecary. 210 points

You haven't taken a standard, so your list isn't competitive full stop, and you've no FNP banner, so the rest of your army is inferior to KWS.

Taking into account losing a model per turn, full games length.

AV 10. plasma, hands down, has better chance to destroy with less shots.

AV 11 plasma

AV 12 Plasma

Except KWS pulls 1.667 (if you roll two sixes its an auto-wreck) and average immobilized, at the range of 18'' compared to 9'' for RW, wherein if they are at 9'' they're getting 2.37 hull points off on AV10, or in other words a dead-never-taken Land Speeder. All three of these AV's are usually rare and usually cheap units with no real significance anyway, and your ability to dedicate the unit is more circumstantial because of risk and range, as well as the fact that you're taking a standard.

AV 13 HP3, Plasma would need 3 6's to destroy, Grav gun would need 2 6's. I guess Grav guns

AV 14 plasma cant touch. Grav Gun wins hands down.

Armor 3+ T4 with single wound. 12 grav shots = 8 hits = 5.X wounds. 8 plasma twin linked = 7 hits = 6 wounds.
plasma Wins.

5.926 wounds on plasma, 5.333 on Grav Guns. You exchange .6 of a wound and Grav Guns have double effective range.

Armor 3 with T6, Plasma wins (grenade lowers T to a 5 so plasma still wounds on 2's)

Circumstantial. You've probably got at best a 50:50 chance of pulling off -1 T on an MCl with one GL. Also, concussive lowers the initiative of said MC to be creamed in combat by another unit. Also, you're still not killing it in one turn outright if it has any kind of invulnerable save like a 5++ meaning whereas BK's are comprehensively screwed being within 9'', GG bikers are not.

Armor 3, with T7 or T8. Grav wins.

Armor 2, with t4. Grav wins

Armor 2, with t4 multi wounds. Plasma wins with the grenade reducing T.

Circumstantial. T4 with multi-wounds is also usually an alpha strike unit, therefore meaning unless your opponent is thick he won't place them near your BK's and even at that they're quite rare altogether.

Armor 2 with T5, Grav

Armor 2 with T6 Grav

Armor 2 with T7 Grav

Armor 4, 5, 6 or no armor. Regardless of toughness (up to an 8) Plasma wins

Easily dealt with bolters anyway that are just wounding on 3's instead of 2's, and you get extra range.

Assaulting. The RW will have the upper hand on majority of targets as it will reduce the WS and I, or the toughness of the Enemy it assaults.

Well, you completely ignored me saying this last time, so I'm only going to say it again - anything that RW can attack and emerge out on top, KWS can probably get away with charging too, and both have hit and run and can escape being tarpitted. So CC is a moot point.

Being assaulted, grav Command unit takes 12 shots, hits twice. Ravenwing unit takes 8 shots hits twice. Tied.

As for combat, ravenwing command have rending hammers as well...

Which are naff.

So decide as you see fit i guess.
Scenarios Grav wins: 6-7
Scenarios Plasma unit wins : 13-14
And yes you could say "well Grav guns are not meant for that or plasma is not meant for that". Fact is you have a far better chance of success if you can adapt to any and all situations... This rule applies to everything in life. Lets face it, unless you are someone who can assume to know everything is going to happen before it does... Games will sometimes not go the way you planned, units you wanted to shoot at might not be available.

In most games against good players, you will not get that match up you want, you will not get your opponent to fall for each of your traps...

Getting your opponent to be dumb enough to put his vehicles, weak infantry and elite game winner infantry like broadsides and paladins within range to annihilated before they do anything is not something you can count on with a 9'' effective range. If your opponent holds them back within the last 6'' of the board (and that's probably what he will do if he's 'good') your talons are ineffective for a turn, and you can't charge anyway because you scouted.

Grav Guns however are considerably more likely because they have an extra 9'' effective range. And multiple units have them, not just the special snowflake command squad.

Imporvise, Adapt, overcome. And RW plasma has a better over all chance.

I don't know how you managed to say 'Pfft real players don't rely on math-hammer' and now suddenly 'pfft KWS is worse because of averages' and having completely forgot your previous position was 'you need to consider tactics, circumstance, set up' which uh, you completely ignore here.

Fact of the matter is, double range for effective fire makes a huge difference. You choose an incredibly favourable BKCS without a standard that would never be taken by any sensible player. In addition that BKCS has to keep itself concealed from the bulk of enemy fire or else your list crumbles.

"Next time try not to come to this conclusion by breaking a basic tenet of 40k and using leaps of logic that make little to no sense, disregarding any strengths of the opposition"
Was my break down above good enough for you or are you going to keep making lonnnngggg drawnnnn outtt boring remarks that require me to explain things in extreme detail for those that are slower...

So I'm 'slower' now. Is the irony completely lost on you? This is how debate works. You don't get to post a long list of reasons and unequivocally emerge out on top, disregarding all others.




But again, Dark Angels are still very effective and competitive.

EDIT: all my edits were to come up with different scenerios for the 2 squads. Please feel free to come up with some, and add em. Maybe this should of started its own discussion,.
EDIT: correction made on AV 13

None of your points are remaining consistent - in the last post you banged on about how FNP banners single handedly is enough reason for RW to be better than KWS, yet now you're not even factoring it in and you've completely forgotten it.

You say 'won't fall for your traps' when RW is the one that is less flexible to your opponent being the wiser, because the range matters, oh does it matter.

You're not just getting Grav Guns on BCS, you're getting them on a few of your bike squads as well, and RW still only has slightly better luck against slightly more threatening targets which are overall rarer.

I am going to try to take this thread in an entirely new direction but I realize I am jumping into a snake pit here...

To me, Ravenwing are not a bike army. I've played Ravenwing as my main army for something like 16 years and in all that time I really couldn't care less about bikes. So why do I play Ravenwing? And more importantly why are Ravenwing still better than White Scars? THE LAND SPEEDERS! My standard 1850 list has 8 landspeeders. I have always played as the bikes in a support role to the speeders. In the good old days of the Dark Angel 3rd edition codex. Ravenwing had no variety at all. Attack bikes only came with multi meltas, and land speeders only came with assault cannons and heavy bolters. Typhoons (as terrible as they were back then) weren't a codex option. It was also written into the fluff that bikes hunted tanks and speeders hunted infantry. So that is exactly how I played them. Fast forward to today, thats still how I play them.

Standard of devastation...that's that weird bolter salvo one right. I wouldn't know I never take it. Why would I when I use my bikes as nothing more than melta-gun delivery systems. Scouting/outflanking delivery systems. 65 points for a piece of wargear? That's almost another land speeder!

Here is a rough cut list for my ravenwing army

Master in Landspeeder (I don't want to hear any crap about AP2 power weapons the landspeeder is the better option)

Librarian on bike with Power field Generator

Bike squad- 2 meltas guns, sarge with powerfist, attack bike with multi- melta, landspeeder with heavy bolter and assault cannon

Bike squad- 2 meltas guns, sarge with powerfist, attack bike with multi- melta, landspeeder with heavy bolter and assault cannon

Bike squad- 2 meltas guns, sarge with powersword, attack bike with multi- melta, landspeeder with heavy bolter and assault cannon.

Landspeeder squadron- 3 Speeders with assault cannons and heavy bolters

Darkshroud- No upgrades

10 Black Knights- 2 grenade launchers

I have played around with things like dropping the librarian/third bike squad to fit points but I work with that basis for the list


The first thing to mention about this list is that it plays like an eldar army. As much as I hate this word this list is all about Synergy. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned White scar bikes may be better, but Ravenwing armies are better, and that is the absolute truth. This army works by co-ordinated strikes and overwhelming the enemy through target saturation. Always combat squad your bikes into 2 units of 3 bikes. One group has the sergeant and the other has the 2 meltaguns. All told you have...17 seperate units the enemy has to target. With scout and turbo-boost you are in their face fast. No army I have fought/seen/heard of can deal with that many units in the course of a single turn. If you pull it off right they only get one turn of full effectiveness before you are seriously limiting their damage output. Combine this with the fact that most opponents are going to be shooting your black knight, darkshroud, Master blob turbo-boosting straight at them. Why would they ever target that lone little attack bike? Like I mentioned before any infantry not in a transport should be targeted by your landspeeders, while your attack bikes and meltagun bikes target enemy vehicles. The black knight primary role is to absorb fire. I have turbo-boosted through the enemy army just so I could still have the 2+ cover. The rest of my army was mopping him up just fine I really didn't need them to kill anything at that moment in time.

So yes. They can have the grav guns, I'll keep my 7 asault cannons...

 Volkov wrote:
I am going to try to take this thread in an entirely new direction but I realize I am jumping into a snake pit here...

To me, Ravenwing are not a bike army. I've played Ravenwing as my main army for something like 16 years and in all that time I really couldn't care less about bikes. So why do I play Ravenwing? And more importantly why are Ravenwing still better than White Scars? THE LAND SPEEDERS! My standard 1850 list has 8 landspeeders. I have always played as the bikes in a support role to the speeders. In the good old days of the Dark Angel 3rd edition codex. Ravenwing had no variety at all. Attack bikes only came with multi meltas, and land speeders only came with assault cannons and heavy bolters. Typhoons (as terrible as they were back then) weren't a codex option. It was also written into the fluff that bikes hunted tanks and speeders hunted infantry. So that is exactly how I played them. Fast forward to today, thats still how I play them.

Standard of devastation...that's that weird bolter salvo one right. I wouldn't know I never take it. Why would I when I use my bikes as nothing more than melta-gun delivery systems. Scouting/outflanking delivery systems. 65 points for a piece of wargear? That's almost another land speeder!

Here is a rough cut list for my ravenwing army

Master in Landspeeder (I don't want to hear any crap about AP2 power weapons the landspeeder is the better option)

Librarian on bike with Power field Generator

Bike squad- 2 meltas guns, sarge with powerfist, attack bike with multi- melta, landspeeder with heavy bolter and assault cannon

Bike squad- 2 meltas guns, sarge with powerfist, attack bike with multi- melta, landspeeder with heavy bolter and assault cannon

Bike squad- 2 meltas guns, sarge with powersword, attack bike with multi- melta, landspeeder with heavy bolter and assault cannon.

Landspeeder squadron- 3 Speeders with assault cannons and heavy bolters

Darkshroud- No upgrades

10 Black Knights- 2 grenade launchers

I have played around with things like dropping the librarian/third bike squad to fit points but I work with that basis for the list


The first thing to mention about this list is that it plays like an eldar army. As much as I hate this word this list is all about Synergy. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned White scar bikes may be better, but Ravenwing armies are better, and that is the absolute truth. This army works by co-ordinated strikes and overwhelming the enemy through target saturation. Always combat squad your bikes into 2 units of 3 bikes. One group has the sergeant and the other has the 2 meltaguns. All told you have...17 seperate units the enemy has to target. With scout and turbo-boost you are in their face fast. No army I have fought/seen/heard of can deal with that many units in the course of a single turn. If you pull it off right they only get one turn of full effectiveness before you are seriously limiting their damage output. Combine this with the fact that most opponents are going to be shooting your black knight, darkshroud, Master blob turbo-boosting straight at them. Why would they ever target that lone little attack bike? Like I mentioned before any infantry not in a transport should be targeted by your landspeeders, while your attack bikes and meltagun bikes target enemy vehicles. The black knight primary role is to absorb fire. I have turbo-boosted through the enemy army just so I could still have the 2+ cover. The rest of my army was mopping him up just fine I really didn't need them to kill anything at that moment in time.

So yes. They can have the grav guns, I'll keep my 7 asault cannons...

I really like this list. It has a very "old school" feel to it And I am striving for something similar. However, what do you do for anti-air? Do you just use the land speeders or black knights to saturate flyers? Or do you just ignore them by getting so close to the enemy / in combat it doesn't really matter?

I would like to bring up the topic of other DA units besides RW though. I realize they are probably the most competitive aspect of the codex still, but what other advantages do DA have over other codices? What about DW command squads? What about the venerable rule for Land Raiders? What about their independent characters and named characters vs those in other books? I'd like to think that many of those unique things are being overlooked at times.

Also, what about the quality of models etc vs the other marine chapters. I am admittedly biased, but I think that DA have some of the coolest looking models of all the space marine chapters and have a very distinct look on the battlefield. Thy may be lackluster in rules, but there are so many other parts to the hobby. To me, having a better looking army is already half the battle won When the store manager constantly takes pics of my Deathwing assaulting some chaos scum or defending a landing platform and posting them as 'highlights' of the day's events, it makes me feel proud of my DA, even if they are kinda meh. If nothing else, i manage to get a good rivalry going between me and my chaos friends at the local GW haha.

- VardenV2

I really like this list. It has a very "old school" feel to it And I am striving for something similar. However, what do you do for anti-air? Do you just use the land speeders or black knights to saturate flyers? Or do you just ignore them by getting so close to the enemy / in combat it doesn't really matter?

I usually just ignore them. I haven't fought them too often though. I usually can get out of their firing arc quickly and it dies the minute they switch to skimmer mode. I played a grey knight list with 2 stormravens and I killed every other model he had, so it came down to my landspeeders chasing them around with the assault cannons, and my master did gun one down, at which point he conceded.

"None of your points are remaining consistent - in the last post you banged on about how FNP banners single handedly is enough reason for RW to be better than KWS, yet now you're not even factoring it in and you've completely forgotten it."

Man are you still not reading my post completely? Skimming through and then making rage responses?

Pick up the Dark Angels book and read it bud...
Never the less...
I decided to talk about 1 unit vs 1 unit, and trying to add substantial, real credence to this topic thread and the on going DEBATE of Grav guns vs. plasma talons on bike squads. In my side by side comparison the unit i use as an example did have FNP... Never the less the side by side comparison speaks for it self. The fact you can have the banner on top of what i listed only provides further evidence to my argument.

"Getting your opponent to be dumb enough to put his vehicles, weak infantry and elite game winner infantry like broadsides and paladins within range to annihilated before they do anything is not something you can count on with a 9'' effective range. If your opponent holds them back within the last 6'' of the board (and that's probably what he will do if he's 'good') your talons are ineffective for a turn, and you can't charge anyway because you scouted."
Deploy 12", scout 12", first turn move 12"... you are in range with 9" guns for the most part. Thats 44".... they would have to depl0y on their own board edge in most cases....

You said, T4 t5, t6, t7,t8,."Easily dealt with bolters anyway that are just wounding on 3's instead of 2's, and you get extra range".... we are doing a unit to unit comparison. We can "what if the army had"... all over. When Grav Guns cant do a better job at something than plasma stop using the" their are other weapons for that excuse"... FYI bolters do not wound t4 t5 t6 t7 or t8 on 3's... what edition are you playing?

You said anything Knights can assault and survive KWS can... sure maybe... But Knights have a better chance of killing stuff. The comparison is not a "i can survive like you and run away".. KWS do not have the grenades to lower WS or I or T. Black Knights could be hitting KWS on 3's and wounding on 4's. Also going before KWS. Knights also have Rending weapons... KWS would hit back on 4's and need 5's to wound, no rending... If you still think they are equal in H2H, not much more i can say to prove it to you....

BTW i never said Black knights were better just because of the FNP banner. I said IMO Dark Angels as a whole was better than Space marines because anything you can make troops in the space marine book still dies to a helldrake on 2+ or 3+. Dark Angels get a PFG, but more importantly its troops can have FNP (from the 12" bubble banner). You can also make termies troops...

Im not going to go in try to pick apart parts of your rebuttal and then twist things around, trying to say things like " well thats not what they do, or there is a different unit then that" . I am also not going to drag on with you on this. You have your views, i have mine i guess. You did you math hammer, i resorted to a little of my own since YOU MADE A GOOD POINT on using it (see i gave you a compliment their, dont be little me because i first said i dont rely on it and then took your advice on examining it more)... My hammer shows Black Knights/plasma works better in twice the scenarios/match ups than KWS with Grav guns.


@ VOLKOV

I like the list man. That is a lot of land speeders and lots of assault cannon fire.

Why Sammy in the speeder though? I would be to scared of him getting focus fired riding solo. Though he does look tough, armor 14 right? And a 3 or 4+ cover save (i dont have my book in front of me?)

@VARDEN

Some of the other Great options in Dark angels. Is Deathwing assault. So DS termies (who can be troops) first turn. I always liked the idea of Azreal with 9 veterans in a drop pod. Half have combi meltas, half have combi flamers. First turn Azreal and his squad DS in, and then 2 units of termies right next to him.
I said earlier one of my favorite tourney list were triple LRC with a the dakka banner in one, and a big bike squad hiding behind them with a libby on a bike with PFG. Three LRC with venerable, armor 14, and 4+ invul was pretty fun.