Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The irony is lost on you, then. This thread is not called 'what's better, BCSGG or BK's', granted the majority of the discussion has gone towards it but that is not what the primary objective of debate was at all.

You're the one that's twisting everything. You twist my positivity into insults and my analysis into missing the point, completely ignoring the fact that the post previously I speak of and the thread concerns the armies as a whole. You twisted the BCSBK's into a unit that would not be taken and then in that following post further twist it with 'this is only additional benefit by having the banner' but ignoring the cost and implications completely and instead of accepting or even providing a counter argument for using the unit, you're trying to shut down debate by taking a moral high ground that doesn't exist.

Deploy 12", scout 12", first turn move 12"... you are in range with 9" guns for the most part. Thats 44".... they would have to depl0y on their own board edge in most cases....

A) Only works when you go first, in an outflanking scenario on turn 2 your opponent can easily escape your realistic 18'' rapid fire full threat range, especially if bubble wrap units are used.
B) Considering there's about 2-3'' worth of models behind, you're left with about a realistic full rapid fire range of 41'' or worse on a sum of occasions.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
The irony is lost on you, then. This thread is not called 'what's better, BCSGG or BK's', granted the majority of the discussion has gone towards it but that is not what the primary objective of debate was at all.

You're the one that's twisting everything. You twist my positivity into insults and my analysis into missing the point, completely ignoring the fact that the post previously I speak of and the thread concerns the armies as a whole. You twisted the BCSBK's into a unit that would not be taken and then in that following post further twist it with 'this is only additional benefit by having the banner' but ignoring the cost and implications completely and instead of accepting or even providing a counter argument for using the unit, you're trying to shut down debate by taking a moral high ground that doesn't exist.

Deploy 12", scout 12", first turn move 12"... you are in range with 9" guns for the most part. Thats 44".... they would have to depl0y on their own board edge in most cases....

A) Only works when you go first, in an outflanking scenario on turn 2 your opponent can easily escape your realistic 18'' rapid fire full threat range, especially if bubble wrap units are used.
B) Considering there's about 2-3'' worth of models behind, you're left with about a realistic full rapid fire range of 41'' or worse on a sum of occasions.

Spoiler:

I bet for your next twist you'll pretend to claim that you don't understand what I mean by 'realistic threat range'. So allow me to put it in better words. 44'' threat range only counts from the front rank. A biker base is about 3'' long so even if the second rank is literally touching the first (inadvisable) in a tight shape you're still having -3'' full rapid fire (wherein everybody rapid fires) threat range.

Bearing in mind that a BK unit will not always have the space or oppurtunity (due to inconveniences or circumstance) to perform a practical full line without great risk (particularly if exploiting banners) this ends up being a fairly common scenario.

No i took your reasoning and logic, by using math hammer, and statistics, and also took the input of cost effectiveness, and showed a side by side unit comparison on possible scenarios you run into in the game. for 20 points difference I showed that Black Knight still come out ahead on twice the amount of scenarios.
.
When i used your "mathhammer", you ridicule me for now using it. "Hey you said you dont use math hammer, now that your equations are correct because you did use it, you're.. you're.. well you're a stinky head..." lol
When i make valid points of Plasma being superior in some cases. You simply said "well their are other guns for that".. Adding in what if scenarios and ignoring my side by side unit comparison.
When i tell you are wrong on certain thing. Like the threat range, you add things like. "Well that only work if X or only works is Y..." FYI: With such low leadership no Tau player is setting up on his own board edge...
When i showed possible equations for a side by side unit comparison, you still argue the points, desperately grasping for any lifeline to lend credence to your points of view. "well that's not what that unit is for", or " well if this were to happen then it only works with A, B, or C" ...


It is you who cant debate, cant accept substantial facts and evidence. It is you who declared he can look at a board and simply know the out come of a game, dismiss his opponents army at a glance. How ever it is you who also declared bolters can wound t4 t5 t6 t7 & t8 on 3's..... so...

I guess we cant have a debate, so carry on with the topic and we can argee to disagree on this particular subject. Im All done, i suggest you be also.

@Tsilber

That triple LRc sounds ridiculous haha. It's fun but I can't really see it working too well most of the time. Maybe if they were full of regular tactical marines to benefit from the bolter banner? That would be one insane mid-field gun line.

I know how the DW assault works, I do play Dark Angels after all And yeah, it's really fun to do. I use a veteran pod with cypher gunslingr vets with two flamers + Azrael + Librarian. It's pretty cool and actually pretty powerful if used correctly. They are not the most points efficient but with the right divination powers + Azrael's Warlord for FNP on an objective they are one pain in the @$$ unit to remove haha. I usually send them suicide style at a mid field objective that my opponent wants and just deny it all game long. They end up throwing so much at that squad just to remove it Both the Khorne and Nurgle players hate that squad haha.

- VardenV2

@ VOLKOV

I like the list man. That is a lot of land speeders and lots of assault cannon fire.

Why Sammy in the speeder though? I would be to scared of him getting focus fired riding solo. Though he does look tough, armor 14 right? And a 3 or 4+ cover save (i dont have my book in front of me?)

The biggest reason for the master in the speeder is again target saturation. Most people that have played me know right quick BS5 twin linked assault cannons and heavy bolters are nothing to be sniffed at. So they rightly view it as a threat. But they also view the black knights as a threat, and the darkshroud as a threat. So that's 3 units that makes the enemy worry. And yes his AV14 with a 4++ constantly or a 3++ with the darkshroud gives him absurd survivability. So I want people to shoot him I like people shooting him. Because I find Ravenwing don't like anti tank weapons. Lascannons and missile launchers are not friends to the ravenwing. The master in speeder is the only unit capable of taking those weapons without darkshrouding turbo-boosting shenanigans.

 VardenV2 wrote:
@Tsilber

That triple LRc sounds ridiculous haha. It's fun but I can't really see it working too well most of the time. Maybe if they were full of regular tactical marines to benefit from the bolter banner? That would be one insane mid-field gun line.

I know how the DW assault works, I do play Dark Angels after all And yeah, it's really fun to do. I use a veteran pod with cypher gunslingr vets with two flamers + Azrael + Librarian. It's pretty cool and actually pretty powerful if used correctly. They are not the most points efficient but with the right divination powers + Azrael's Warlord for FNP on an objective they are one pain in the @$$ unit to remove haha. I usually send them suicide style at a mid field objective that my opponent wants and just deny it all game long. They end up throwing so much at that squad just to remove it Both the Khorne and Nurgle players hate that squad haha.

- VardenV2

The 3 Land raider crusaders have enough bolters to benefit from the banner. (72 twin linked shots) The land raiders also have MM. About 295 each with the dozer blade and venerable.
The bike squad the librarian is in tries to hide behind the 3 LRC, but they have melta guns incase needed. As well as 4 twinlinked shot bolters.
So effectively you have the command squad in LR, if you took azreal or Belial you can put close combat terminator troops in each of the other lrc.

Can you imagine 4 LRC?

@ VOLKOV
Ahh i like that a lot. How do you get him to a 3+ cover? Jink is 5+, and then +1 for stealth from DS. Where is the plus 1 coming from? I dont have my dark angels book in front of me. Does Sam get skilled rider in the speeder or something?
Either way i like him in a speeder i might try him sometime.

@ VOLKOV
Ahh i like that a lot. How do you get him to a 3+ cover? Jink is 5+, and then +1 for stealth from DS. Where is the plus 1 coming from? I dont have my dark angels book in front of me. Does Sam get skilled rider in the speeder or something?
Either way i like him in a speeder i might try him sometime.

Turbo-boosting with the Darkshroud gives 3+ cover.

..oh duh...of coarse lol.. I was thinking there was a way to get a 3++ and still shoot.

Tsilber wrote:
..oh duh...of coarse lol.. I was thinking there was a way to get a 3++ and still shoot.

Take WS and ally in a skilled rider.

jamin484 wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
..oh duh...of coarse lol.. I was thinking there was a way to get a 3++ and still shoot.

Take WS and ally in a skilled rider.

Dont think that would apply to Sammy on a speeder as he is now vehicle and wont be able to join squads... Unless their is a loophole, cause sammy on speeder in black knight squad would be funny (or attached to a WS squad)

Dont think that would apply to Sammy on a speeder as he is now vehicle and wont be able to join squads... Unless their is a loophole, cause sammy on speeder in black knight squad would be funny (or attached to a WS squad)

I m really having to wrack my brain on this one but I think he was listed as an independent character in the 3rd edition codex. But you can only join same unit type squads so he could only join land speeder squadrons. You also had landspeeder squadron command squads. An apothecary landspeeder...thats useful...

First of, Tsilber and Mr Omega, thank you for the heated exchange. It's nice that you are each passionate about your beliefs. Each of you raised some good points. Reading through your debate has given me a little more clarity on my own situation. I have some BA bikers I just stripped the paint off and wasn't sure if they were going to become DA or white scars. I think the whole Grav Gun > everything else argument is a little weak. It's target choice is too specific. I'll stick with the tried and true plasma.

Yes. As a new player, this thread has been extremely informative because of the opposing viewpoints.

This has really became bike vs bike argument, what about the rest of the armies choices?

It's been out for a few weeks now, and it's pretty obvious that C:SM has blown DA out of the water in almost every aspect.

The only competitive saving graces that DA retain are:

Cheap librarians with prescience.
Power Field Generators.
Standard of devastation.
Black knights.

The problem with this list, is that 3/4 can be taken and used effectively as allies, whilst taking better selections from another codex. A librarian on a bike with a command squad of black knights and a pfg comes in at a little over 300 points, which is pretty decent value for points.

I won't comment on the black knights vs grav gun command squad, both are good choices.

DA is still nice for fluffy DW armies, but the ravenwing has been totally out classed. Imo, DA are now best used as an allies selection to bring some extra tools to the table.

(I haven't included dark shroud here as there is so much anti-cover being thrown around now that they often do not make a large impact.)

I've been really loking at Ravenwing vs White Scars. Unfortunity Ravenwing are just more expensive to run, the advantage is the plasma spam and support units. The Ravenwing flyers are way more highbrow then the white scar one and if played correctly makes it feel like you are cheating. But this makes ravenwing expensive and difficult to run so not competative at all.

Looking at it from a casual perspective. I can run my ravenwing as whitescars, my deathwing as dark angels and cherry pick chapter tactics or dark angel grimm resolve for my generic stuff. Just have to figure out witch one or two I want to run. GW wins because they sold me two codexs instead of one, and I will be building models from both books.

I have to admit but grim resolve on tacticals is actually a hindrance when compared to the other chapter tactics. I would basically jsut try and ally in some other chapters instead at this point unfortunately.

I think that the independent characters are still being overlooked. What about Azrael and Ezekiel. They are pretty cool.

DA are still the only 'standard' marines who can do terminators as troops. Not that big a deal as they are too expensive for what they are worth, but something nonetheless.

The new SM codex just shows me that, once again, the Dark Angels need to be wrapped in with the rest of the marines in order to be competitive at all. They are always the "test" codex and even fluff-wise, it makes no sense for the differing wargear. Why wouldn't DA get grav guns when 99% of the other chapters get them? Why don;t they get storm talons, or ravens, or sterngaurd etc? It's jsut sort of silly. By being their own book they are hurting as all of their unique stuff is generally worse than the standard SM stuff. It's disappointing, but luckily im not all about the win. I'm about having a cool army, and DA are still pretty cool in my opinion.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
It's been out for a few weeks now, and it's pretty obvious that C:SM has blown DA out of the water in almost every aspect.

The only competitive saving graces that DA retain are:

Cheap librarians with prescience.
Power Field Generators.
Standard of devastation.
Black knights.

The problem with this list, is that 3/4 can be taken and used effectively as allies, whilst taking better selections from another codex. A librarian on a bike with a command squad of black knights and a pfg comes in at a little over 300 points, which is pretty decent value for points.

I won't comment on the black knights vs grav gun command squad, both are good choices.

DA is still nice for fluffy DW armies, but the ravenwing has been totally out classed. Imo, DA are now best used as an allies selection to bring some extra tools to the table.

(I haven't included dark shroud here as there is so much anti-cover being thrown around now that they often do not make a large impact.)

I pretty much agree with this post.

The problem I have is that with most of the variants of the army I'm assembling I can make flat out better by scraping the DA iconography off and paying the GW codex tax again. I find myself changing the army composition just to justify paining my dudes green. I'm going to try a list with DW as troops not because i think it will be any good but because it keeps the illusion of "equal but different" instead of the more accurate "same but worse".

 VardenV2 wrote:
I have to admit but grim resolve on tacticals is actually a hindrance when compared to the other chapter tactics. I would basically jsut try and ally in some other chapters instead at this point unfortunately.

I think that the independent characters are still being overlooked. What about Azrael and Ezekiel. They are pretty cool.

DA are still the only 'standard' marines who can do terminators as troops. Not that big a deal as they are too expensive for what they are worth, but something nonetheless.

The new SM codex just shows me that, once again, the Dark Angels need to be wrapped in with the rest of the marines in order to be competitive at all. They are always the "test" codex and even fluff-wise, it makes no sense for the differing wargear. Why wouldn't DA get grav guns when 99% of the other chapters get them? Why don;t they get storm talons, or ravens, or sterngaurd etc? It's jsut sort of silly. By being their own book they are hurting as all of their unique stuff is generally worse than the standard SM stuff. It's disappointing, but luckily im not all about the win. I'm about having a cool army, and DA are still pretty cool in my opinion.

Ah yeah my bad, I totally forgot Azrael in my list. The other characters are totally forgettable, but Azrael is great.....again especially as an ally.
Using him to give an IG blob a 4++ save is a well known strategy for example.

The Ravenwing flyers are way more highbrow then the white scar one

If by 'highbrow' you mean disappointingly underpowered and over costed I would have to agree with you.

Again, my biggest issue with DW is almost every character in terminator armor is stuck with the gimped weapon options of a power sword and storm bolter. Other than Belial and the DWK sgt, you can't even begin to think about adding a storm shield, lightning claw or thunder hammer to any character, effectively reducing them to not much more than ablative wounds.

DA is still nice for fluffy DW armies, but the ravenwing has been totally out classed. Imo, DA are now best used as an allies selection to bring some extra tools to the table.

I facepalmed reading this. Ravenwing are not outclassed. I have won every single game since the 6th editions codex came out. I used to have a win loss ratio of about 50% with the old codex. Ravenwing are meaner and dirtier than ever before. What did white scars really get +1 jink? difficult terrain ain't nothin' but a thang now that you get your armour saves when you fail. You get scout if you take the overwhelmingly lackluster HQ choice that is Khan. Give me sammael every day of the week. Khan is a scouts tax. Sammael is a straight up bad ass.

I just looked up the vaunted grav-gun command squad. Unless I am missing something you can only give them combi-grav weapons, or grav pistols...here I thought they get all got grav-guns.

And as I mentioned earlier Ravenwing are more than just bikes, I think of Ravenwing more analogous to a Dark eldar army than a codex space marines bike army. You don't leave Commorragh without raiders, you don't leave the Rock without Speeders. A crap ton of them

They are just fine and can still be competitive.

Try a White Scars and DA biker list, seems to me adding elements of both would be an awesome list.

 Volkov wrote:

DA is still nice for fluffy DW armies, but the ravenwing has been totally out classed. Imo, DA are now best used as an allies selection to bring some extra tools to the table.

I facepalmed reading this. Ravenwing are not outclassed. I have won every single game since the 6th editions codex came out. I used to have a win loss ratio of about 50% with the old codex. Ravenwing are meaner and dirtier than ever before. What did white scars really get +1 jink? difficult terrain ain't nothin' but a thang now that you get your armour saves when you fail. You get scout if you take the overwhelmingly lackluster HQ choice that is Khan. Give me sammael every day of the week. Khan is a scouts tax. Sammael is a straight up bad ass.

I just looked up the vaunted grav-gun command squad. Unless I am missing something you can only give them combi-grav weapons, or grav pistols...here I thought they get all got grav-guns.

And as I mentioned earlier Ravenwing are more than just bikes, I think of Ravenwing more analogous to a Dark eldar army than a codex space marines bike army. You don't leave Commorragh without raiders, you don't leave the Rock without Speeders. A crap ton of them

You won your games? Great. I never said DA are unusable. But I stand by what I said before, Ravenwing now come in 2nd when compared to a C:SM bike army in terms of competitiveness.
What did the basic white scar biker get over the RW besides being 6 points cheaper, with +1 jink, +1 HoW str, ignoring difficult terrain as well as access to grav guns....... lol. I don't need to justify myself here.
And these changes all come alongside other additions in the SM codex that are missing in codex DA.

Command squad got an FAQ. Check the GW website.

Finally, I couldn't care less if RW are more or less than just bikes. The thread is about where DA now stands competitively, which in the context of a bike army, seems to be firmly in 2nd place.

You won your games? Great. I never said DA are unusable. But I stand by what I said before, Ravenwing now come in 2nd when compared to a C:SM bike army in terms of competitiveness.
What did the basic white scar biker get over the RW besides being 6 points cheaper, with +1 jink, +1 HoW str, ignoring difficult terrain as well as access to grav guns....... lol. I don't need to justify myself here.
And these changes all come alongside other additions in the SM codex that are missing in codex DA.

I see ravenwing as extremely competitive. In a vacuum alot of units seem better than others. As for the other changes in the codex, sure, run centurions, and storm ravens, and sternguard and all those units that cripple dark angel self worth, but you are going to have to drop those superior white scar bikes to field them in which case it stops being a bike army.

Command squad got an FAQ. Check the GW website.

I knew I was missing something. I couldn't see what the hype was about before...but still mech guard are my other army so bring on the immobilizations to my stationary leman russes! At least plasma guns can easily pop me from the rear

Finally, I couldn't care less if RW are more or less than just bikes. The thread is about where DA now stands competitively, which in the context of a bike army, seems to be firmly in 2nd place.

And I couldn't care less if orks are more than just gretchin. I want to spam only one unit and complain another army can do it better than mine!

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
The thread is about where DA now stands competitively, which in the context of a bike army, seems to be firmly in 2nd place.

Well, looking through this thread, many many many still think they are superior to White Scars. So in your opinion, which i respect, they are first and dark angels are 2nd.

In my opinion, Ravenwing is still superior. I dont mean to harp on this, but i cant seem to get past this either, space marine troop bikes die to ignores cover ap 3, hell drakes, riptides.... Dark Angels have a way to still get at least a FNP if not a 4++ from PFG. You need troops to win most games... 2-3 hell drake list destroy SM bike armies.

That being said, i think points have been made on both ends and now this thread is getting a little redundant. I am bowing out of this discussion, no hard feelings anyone, apologies to anyone i offended, i respect all of your positions and views.

I think DA suffer most from terrible fliers and anti-flier tech. Just my observations as a BA guy.

Martel732 wrote:
I think DA suffer most from terrible fliers and anti-flier tech. Just my observations as a BA guy.

Which is why we have auto H&R. Helldrakes can't touch what they....can't touch.
This auto H&R also ensures the SoD is being used to its full capacity.

Double RWCS is still very competitive.

The problem with auto H+R is the assumption that there is something you actually want to be in CC with. That being said, I do have a marine/BA hybrid list with no AA that relies on bum rushing the deployment zone.

In the end, I don't think DA are that much worse off than any meq list right now. They are all inferior to Eldar/Tau/Demons.

Martel732 wrote:
I think DA suffer most from terrible fliers and anti-flier tech. Just my observations as a BA guy.

This issue, while a pain in the arse, is a singular problem easily corrected with the additions of allies.

I think the SM codex is a nice solid codex, with plenty of flexibility and options. I still think ravenwing are better than white scars, although not by much (proably why this debate is so heated)

The SM codex by its very nature should be more tactical and flexible than any of the stand alone marine codecies. (BA, DA, SW). SW have no fliers, DA fliers are crap, and BA have the "we pay %10 more than you for the same unit" tax.

H&R is nice.. it allows you to shoot up a unit, engage it, be protected from enemy fire during the enemies turn, then you can run and either rinse repeat or drive off 12+ inches for something else.

And yes Martel (Prophet of Doom :p) we are all standing in the shadow or Eldar/Tau/Demons... but then again, I like a challenge.

I feel DA suffers a little by being constrained to certain buffs (BoD, Darkshroud, PFG) that can be taken out fairly easily.

White scar units are more self contained, and work fine on thier own. Their weapons are more of the focus, and they don't relly on buffs and powers.

White scars is more "All for one" While the DA is more "one for all"



(dear lord i hope i got that right)

Martel732 wrote:
The problem with auto H+R is the assumption that there is something you actually want to be in CC with.

What you don't want to be in CC with should already have been lit up by plasma talons and salvo bolters. And whatever I hit into probably has a T or WS and I modifier. This gives RW a pretty nice edge over WS, imo.

You're absolutely right about us in the shadows. I feel DA will grow into 6th as the remaining books are updated.