Im sure some of you will know the answear to this, but im am starting to follow the masses and run coteaz. I gave him Prescience and tossed him in a 10 man monkey squad. so now i have 10 twin linked beams of death flying out every turn. So my question is about the "Gate of infinity ability" being used against coteaz and his squad. The Ive been expecting you ability reads comming in from reserves in his rules. so when the Gate of infinity is used and someone pops up within 12 inches of the inquisitor lord himself can his squad fire on them, the squad arives using deep strike rules, but not sure if it ever is considered comming in from reserve.
the same question is for transports. if someone disembarks a transport and is brought into play does his ability go off?

A model teleporting via GoI is not coming in from Reserves so would not be eligible. As for disembarking, if the transport was already in play, units disembarking are not targettable. If the transport arrived from reserves (such as a DP) then per the FAQ both can be shot at.

No, they have just come on like Deep Strikers, but they never actually arrived from Reserves. So IBEY doesn't trigger.

figured, but i wanted to doble check. thanks guys.

Yeah, Coteaz is a stellar unit, but even his precognitive powers and spy network cannot predict what units already on the battlefield will do with any accuracy.

Run Strike Squads with Warpquake. GOI issue fixed.

Don't you mean Veil of Darkness? GOI is just disembarking, not deepstriking. Am I missing something here?

 Fafnir13 wrote:
Don't you mean Veil of Darkness? GOI is just disembarking, not deepstriking. Am I missing something here?

GoI is...disembarking?
Please cite the rule that states this. The GoI in my rulebook says that the unit "arrives using the rules for Deep Strike."

Also, Warp Quake disrupts "any unit deploying via Deep Strike." So it might not work against GoI, since they're not deploying. But the DS rule doesn't talk about "deploying," it only talks about "arriving."
RAW Warp Quake doesn't work at all? RAI it works against Gate?

Yes Coteaz does get IBEY against people using GOI. It specifically states the unit "arrives by deep strike". The Deep strike rules tell us that arriving is coming from reserve. So you get to shoot their face off .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the DS rules do indeed talk about deploying. Read the section under "Arriving by Deep strike". It clarifies that arriving is making your reserves roll then you deploy by deep strike using the scattering method.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes Coteaz does get IBEY against people using GOI. It specifically states the unit "arrives by deep strike". The Deep strike rules tell us that arriving is coming from reserve. So you get to shoot their face off .

Not correct.
IBEY requires the unit arrive from reserve.
Units using GOI have not arrived from reserve. They were on the table at the start of the turn, no reserve rolls were made.

 Fafnir13 wrote:
Don't you mean Veil of Darkness? GOI is just disembarking, not deepstriking. Am I missing something here?

You're thinking of the "Eternity Gate" on the Monolith.
This is about Gate of Infinity, the psychic power.

Not correct.
IBEY requires the unit arrive from reserve.
Units using GOI have not arrived from reserve. They were on the table at the start of the turn, no reserve rolls were made.

Please read the deep strike rules. You are claiming GOI is not "arriving by deep strike" because that is a subset of "arriving from reserve".

 FlingitNow wrote:

Not correct.
IBEY requires the unit arrive from reserve.
Units using GOI have not arrived from reserve. They were on the table at the start of the turn, no reserve rolls were made.

Please read the deep strike rules. You are claiming GOI is not "arriving by deep strike" because that is a subset of "arriving from reserve".

No, I'm claiming they are arriving via Deep Strike, but are NOT arriving from reserve.
They were on the table at the start of the turn. No reserve roll was made. The unit was never in reserve this turn.

The requirement of IBEY is that they arrive from reserve. In this case they arrive from the table. Even if you claim they must be in reserve to use deep strike, they simply didn't arrive from it, which is the requirement needed.

No, I'm claiming they are arriving via Deep Strike, but are NOT arriving from reserve.

Which is of course impossible according to the DS rules which clearly state arriving is coming from reserve. Please read the Deep Strike rules then you'll understand how they work.

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, I'm claiming they are arriving via Deep Strike, but are NOT arriving from reserve.

Which is of course impossible according to the DS rules which clearly state arriving is coming from reserve. Please read the Deep Strike rules then you'll understand how they work.

Are you seriously suggesting that there are no rules in this game that only use part of another rule?
Interceptor uses only part of the shooting rules.
Haywire only uses part of the "shooting at vehicles" rules.
You want me to re-read the Deep Strike rules? How about you pick a USR at random and read that. Chances are it will use only part of another rule.

Impossible according to the Deep Strike rules? It's impossible according the Reserve rules, by the simple fact that the unit is not in Reserve, but on the table.

FlingitNow wrote:Which is of course impossible according to the DS rules which clearly state arriving is coming from reserve. Please read the Deep Strike rules then you'll understand how they work.

Actually no, they don't. Deep striking 'can' be a method of arriving from reserves sure, but there is nothing inherent in utilizing the deep strike rules that places models using it 'in' reserves before putting them on the table. keep in mind abilities which utilize them from the table such as the veil of darkness and gate of infinity bypass the need for the unit to start in reserves in the first place.

As you've so eloquently put it, read the Deep Strike rules. Also please quote the section you believe supports your post, I'm very interested in where you are getting that idea from?

Deep Strike doesn't mean you're arriving from reserve.
Reserve is a requirement of Deep Strike.
Important difference.

You can't use the Deep Strike rules unless the unit is in reserve. Fortunately the GOI tells us to use the rule anyway. The requirement is bypassed.

And suggesting the unit then counts as arriving from reserve is simply not right. You're then following none of the reserve rules, except allowing the unit to be shot at by Interceptor/IBEY.

You could never use GoI or VoD to Deep Strike from the table top if you use FlingitNow's interpretation, because you are never actually told to put the unit into reserves by either those abilities or by the Deep Strike rules themselves.

So either these abilities don't work at all, or you take logical route of only using the portion of the rules that tell you how to actually place the models onto the table.

Seriously read the deep strike rules. It tells you what "arriving by deep strike" is and what "deploying by deep strike" is. You all seem to be confusing the later with the former. Arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve.

You roll for reserve then do you?

Edit: Oh and you can't use GOI until turn 2 then, since reserves can't arrive on turn 1.

No you don't roll the roll is to see if you arrive GOI tells you that you do arrive, so no roll is necessary.

 FlingitNow wrote:
No you don't roll the roll is to see if you arrive GOI tells you that you do arrive, so no roll is necessary.

Can you cite this please. I don't see any mention of reserves in the rules for Gate of Infinity.

So they count as arriving from reserve, while using none of the reserve rule?
So not reserved at all?

Deep Striking does not mean you're arriving from reserve.
Reserve is a requirement of Deep Strike.
It's an important difference.
And a requirement that isn't required due to GOI.

Happyjew the rules are on page 422. Second paragraph under GOI title 4th sentence. Then page 36 4th paragraph first sentence. Notice how that sentence tells us what arriving by deep strike is and what deploying by deep strike is.

Grendel083 read the section "arriving by deep strike" on page 36. The first part of deep strike tells us reserves is a requirement of DS we are agreed here. However the section under "arriving by deep strike" tells us that arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve, then deploying by deep strike is what follows that.

I agree you arrive but where does it say you do not need to roll for reserves?

The first 4 words for "Arriving by Deep Strike" are...
Roll for the arrival

So if you're arriving from reserve, you must roll first, and you can't roll on turn 1.

Because the reserve roll is to see if you arrive. GoI tells you that you arrive "immediately" in that very sentence I cited for you already.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Because the reserve roll is to see if you arrive. GoI tells you that you arrive "immediately" in that very sentence I cited for you already.

And where are you arriving from?

So the unit is never in reserve.
Non of the reserve rules being used.
"Arriving from reserve" not being used at all and replaced with "arrives immediately".

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Because the reserve roll is to see if you arrive. GoI tells you that you arrive "immediately" in that very sentence I cited for you already.

And where are you arriving from?

Reserve as per the DS rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Because the reserve roll is to see if you arrive. GoI tells you that you arrive "immediately" in that very sentence I cited for you already.

And where are you arriving from?

Reserve as per the DS rules.

OK. And how did you get in Reserves?

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Because the reserve roll is to see if you arrive. GoI tells you that you arrive "immediately" in that very sentence I cited for you already.

And where are you arriving from?

Reserve as per the DS rules.

OK. And how did you get in Reserves?

You don't. You are never placed in reserves. But you are still arriving from it as per the DS rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You don't. You are never placed in reserves. But you are still arriving from it as per the DS rules.

So you are arriving from reserves without having been in reserves? Please explain how that works.

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
You don't. You are never placed in reserves. But you are still arriving from it as per the DS rules.

So you are arriving from reserves without having been in reserves? Please explain how that works.

What are actually asking because I don't understand your question.

Are you placed in reserves? No.
Are you arriving from deep strike? Yes => you are arriving from reserve.

This is what the rules tell us. Are you claiming that models that use GoI are not arriving by deep strike because if so GoI disagrees with you. Or are you claiming arriving by deep strike is not arriving from reserve because if so the Deep Strike rules disagree with you.

 FlingitNow wrote:
What are actually asking because I don't understand your question.

Are you placed in reserves? No.
Are you arriving from deep strike? Yes => you are arriving from reserve.

This is what the rules tell us. Are you claiming that models that use GoI are not arriving by deep strike because if so GoI disagrees with you. Or are you claiming arriving by deep strike is not arriving from reserve because if so the Deep Strike rules disagree with you.

My question is how are you arriving from reserves without being in reserves?

How by casting gate of infinity and doing what the rules tell me to do.

What rules do you think we should ignore, the GoI rules or the DS rules? And where are you getting permission to ignore those rules?

 FlingitNow wrote:
How by casting gate of infinity and doing what the rules tell me to do.

What rules do you think we should ignore, the GoI rules or the DS rules? And where are you getting permission to ignore those rules?

But you're suggesting ignoring all of the reserve rules.
You say they're arriving from reserve but use non of those reserve rules.

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
How by casting gate of infinity and doing what the rules tell me to do.

What rules do you think we should ignore, the GoI rules or the DS rules? And where are you getting permission to ignore those rules?

But you're suggesting ignoring all of the reserve rules.
You say they're arriving from reserve but use non of those reserve rules.

But I am following the GoI and DS rules. Only ignoring the parts of the reserve rules I have permission to ignore. Or more appropriately I am only using the parts of the reserves rules that I have permission to use and not using any other parts of the reserves rules. By casting GoI I HAVE to use the GoI rules. Which tell me to use the rules for arriving by deep strike so again I HAVE to use those rules, the caveat being that I an told to arrive immediately do therefore don't have to roll for arrival.

Exactly what parts of the reserve rules are you using?
Any at all?

None the only parts of the reserve rules you normally use when DSing is the reserve roll. GoI by passes the roll, but the DS rules are still being used and you are still arriving from reserves without ever triggering any of the reserves rules.

So if you are not using reserve rules how are you arriving from reserves?

So if you are not using reserve rules how are you arriving from reserves?

By deep strike as per GoI and the DS rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if I'm not arriving from reserve as you guys suggest. Please tell me which of these premises is false:

1) you are arriving by deep strike (pg422)
2) arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve (pg36)

Please cite the rules you have to over ride the rules I've quoted.

 FlingitNow wrote:
None the only parts of the reserve rules you normally use when DSing is the reserve roll. GoI by passes the roll, but the DS rules are still being used and you are still arriving from reserves without ever triggering any of the reserves rules.

The underlined is wrong.
You use "Reserves", "Preparing Reserves" and parts of "Arriving from Reserves" with standard Deep Strike.

With GOI you use non of these. Even "Arriving from reserves" isn't used, as you "arrive immediately" as per the GOI rules.

Again Reserve is a requirement of Deep Strike.
"...and the unit must start the game in Reserve..."

"...roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for reserves and then..."
Another rule that isn't actually being used since the by the GOI rules the unit arrives immediately instead.

So at no point is the unit in Reserve, using any of the reserve rules, or even counted as arriving from reserve by the GOI rules.

The underlined is wrong.
You use "Reserves", "Preparing Reserves" and parts of "Arriving from Reserves" with standard Deep Strike.

Sorry I was not clear. When I said "when DSing" I meant "when arriving by deep strike" I figured context would make it clear as "arriving by deep strike" is what we have been discussing.

"...roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for reserves and then..."
Another rule that isn't actually being used since the by the GOI rules the unit arrives immediately instead.

This rule is being used just augmented by GoI. If GoI said you are "deployed by deep strike" your argument would be correct. But it doesn't...

So at no point is the unit in Reserve, using any of the reserve rules, or even counted as arriving from reserve by the GOI rules.

The rulebook disagrees with the underlined. So prove either:

1) when using GoI you don't "arrive by deep strike"
2) that arriving by deep strike is not arriving from reserves.

Or concede.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Or concede.

This nonsense again?

So prove either

Ah two loaded questions. Which one to choose....
Bearing in mind we're using GOI in this example not the standard Deep Strike rules. Your questions would be relevant if GOI wasn't being used.

2) that arriving by deep strike is not arriving from reserves.

You've answered this one already.
Does the GOI say you "arrive from Reserve", or does it say you "arrive immediately"?

When you GOI, the models are removed from the table. Models that are not on the table, yet are not dead, are in reserve. When placed back on table via Deep Strike, the models arrive from reserve.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Models that are not on the table, yet are not dead, are in reserve.

You have a rule to prove this I assume?

You remove a unit from the table to embark on a transport. Are they in reserve also?

Sorry but your statement is flat out wrong.

You've answered this one already.
Does the GOI say you "arrive from Reserve", or does it say you "arrive immediately"?

It says "immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike" and what do the deep strike rules tell us arriving is?

I have proven:

1) GoI forces you to arrive by deep strike.
2) That arriving by deep strike is arrive from reserve.

Thus you MUST be arriving from reserve when you use GoI. You need to disprove one of those points for there to be any chance that GoI does not trigger IBEY. So concede or disprove one of those 2 premises. Because if they are true (as I've proven) then GoI certainly does make you arrive from reserve.

You have not proven 2.

You're claiming they're arriving from reserve, despite using non of these rules. But as you yourself have just quoted, they arrive immediately, not from reserve.

 FlingitNow wrote:
How by casting gate of infinity and doing what the rules tell me to do.

What rules do you think we should ignore, the GoI rules or the DS rules? And where are you getting permission to ignore those rules?

I would like to see the rule that allows you to place a non flyer/FMC back into Reserves?

40k-noob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
How by casting gate of infinity and doing what the rules tell me to do.

What rules do you think we should ignore, the GoI rules or the DS rules? And where are you getting permission to ignore those rules?

I would like to see the rule that allows you to place a non flyer/FMC back into Reserves?

Eldar codex page 35 - Skyleap.

 Happyjew wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
How by casting gate of infinity and doing what the rules tell me to do.

What rules do you think we should ignore, the GoI rules or the DS rules? And where are you getting permission to ignore those rules?

I would like to see the rule that allows you to place a non flyer/FMC back into Reserves?

Eldar codex page 35 - Skyleap.

You're claiming they're arriving from reserve, despite using non of these rules. But as you yourself have just quoted, they arrive immediately, not from reserve.

How do the DS rules define "arriving by deep strike"? Arriving immediately and from reserve are not mutually exclusive. Please point to the part of GoI or indeed any rule that states you are not "arriving by deep strike". Or prove that the DS rules don't say:

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy... {emphasis mine}

So what does this tell us? It tells us that for arrival you are coming from reserve, the "and then" part shows us that deploying by deep strike is something you do after arriving. So arriving by deepstrike is and only is coming from reserve. Thus when we are immediately arriving by the deep strike rules we are immediately arriving from reserve. So if the DS rules containt that text then my premise 2 is correct. So prove that those words aren't in the DS rules. Or disprove premise 1.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy...

Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for Reserves?
No you are not.

So is this rule even being used?
No it isn't.

This rule is the only one that might even hint that you are arriving form reserve, and it's not even being used when using GOI !

Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for Reserves?
No you are not.

So is this rule even being used?
No it isn't.

This rule is the only one that might even hint that you are arriving form reserve, and it's not even being used when using GOI

So now you're claiming that you are not arriving by deep strike when using GoI. GoI disagrees with you. If that rule is not being used you are not arriving by deep strike as that is the ONLY rule that is "arriving by deep strike" you then go on to deploy by deep strike.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for Reserves?
No you are not.

So is this rule even being used?
No it isn't.

This rule is the only one that might even hint that you are arriving form reserve, and it's not even being used when using GOI

So now you're claiming that you are not arriving by deep strike when using GoI. GoI disagrees with you. If that rule is not being used you are not arriving by deep strike as that is the ONLY rule that is "arriving by deep strike" you then go on to deploy by deep strike.

Didn't read what I wrote did you? Go back, read it again, and answer the following:

Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for Reserves?

It's not the use of a Deep Strike I'm questioning. It's the part that says you're arriving from reserve.

I read what you wrote. You didn't understand what I wrote. If you're not using that rule you're not "arriving by Deep Strike".

We are using that rule but GoI modifies that rule to be as follows:

"Immediately arrive as specified in the Reserves rules then deploy..."

If you don't use that rule you are simply deploying by deep strike which is not what GoI tells you to do.

Let's take another approach.

Do you agree that one rule can make use of only part of another rule?

For example, Deep Strike doesn't use all of the "arriving from reserve" rule, correct? The unit doesn't move on from a table edge, that part of the rule isn't being used.

Haywire is another example. It doesn't use all of the "Shooting at vehicles" rule, does it? You skip the rolling against armour and damage chart.

Same here. GOI doesn't use all of the Deep Strike rules.
The only part that tells us the unit is arriving from reserve is this line:
Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy...

We're not rolling for the arrival of Deep Striking units, as specified in the rules for Reserves. Are we?
Because GOI states they arrive immediately.
This part of the rule isn't used. And it's the only part that suggests the unit is arriving from reserve.
Therefore the unit is not arriving from Reserve.

 FlingitNow wrote:
We are using that rule but GoI modifies that rule to be as follows:

"Immediately arrive as specified in the Reserves rules then deploy..."

Not true, because that would be breaking the Reserve rule. Since the Reserve rule never states you arrive immediately, your modification makes a falsehood out of the reserve rules.
Simply put, the Reserve rule does not specific you arrive immediately. Never does. Never will.

If you don't use that rule you are simply deploying by deep strike which is not what GoI tells you to do.

Actually... Yes it does (almost). It's says the unit "arrives via the Deep Strike Rules".

I agree that GoI doesn't use all of the DS rules. But it does use the "arriving by deep strike" rule though it modifies it.

You are still claiming that GoI is not arriving by deep strike. Then things get laughable:

Not true, because that would be breaking the Reserve rule. Since the Reserve rule never states you arrive immediately, your modification makes a falsehood out of the reserve rules.
Simply put, the Reserve rule does not specific you arrive immediately. Never does. Never will.

By this argument you don't make a shooting attack when you use the split fire USR as it says immediately make a shooting attack and the shooting rules don't say immediately. The reserves rule doesn't specify you arrive immediately GoI does it tells you when you arrive. The fact that a rules states you immediately do "A" means that you can't be doing "A" because the "A" rules don't specify immediately is frankly baffling.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You are still claiming that GoI is not arriving by deep strike.

Seriously. Please stop saying this. I've corrected you enough times on this.

Then things get laughable:

More laughable than claiming a unit that is never in Reserve, uses none of the Reserve rules, and never arrives from Reserve some how magically counts as arriving from reserve? Hilarious.

Not true, because that would be breaking the Reserve rule. Since the Reserve rule never states you arrive immediately, your modification makes a falsehood out of the reserve rules.
Simply put, the Reserve rule does not specific you arrive immediately. Never does. Never will.

By this argument you don't make a shooting attack when you use the split fire USR as it says immediately make a shooting attack and the shooting rules don't say immediately.

That's a poor example. You're talking about modifying a rule, and then saying another rule specified it. You can shoot immediately. You can arrive from reserve immediately, but the reserve rule doesn't specify it. Your "modified" rule is stating that the reserve rule says something it doesn't.
You can play word games all night to fit incorrect statements if you like.

The reserves rule doesn't specify you arrive immediately GoI does it tells you when you arrive. The fact that a rules states you immediately do "A" means that you can't be doing "A" because the "A" rules don't specify immediately is frankly baffling.

See that underlined part? That is correct.
But you stated with your "modified rule" that the reserve rules state the opposite. They don't.

The part that talks about arriving from reserve is not even used. You're trying to cheery pick words out of a sentence, to turn a rule into something it isn't.

The instructions read:

"Remove the target unit from the board. It then immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike." ("Gate of Infinity" instructions, p 422)

The rules tell us where a unit targeted by Gate of Infinity goes and, in doing so, tells us where it arrives from. It is most definitely not reserve. In context, it is that simple.

This is not the only example of a unit that is not in reserve arriving by Deep Strike. Conjured units are not in reserve, yet they also also arrive by Deep Strike (p 68).

Why don't the Gate of Infinity instructions just tell us to deploy the models using the rules for Deep Strike? Because arrival and deployment are related, but distinct. For example, a unit may arrive but never actually deploy. The section under the subheading "Arriving by Deep Strike" (p 36) covers several aspects of Deep Striking: how to determine if Deep Striking reserves arrive, how to deploy units arriving by Deep Strike, and what units arriving by Deep Strike may or may not do.

It's not that hard.

Seriously. Please stop saying this. I've corrected you enough times on this.

You've still not understood what I've said.

See that underlined part? That is correct.
But you stated with your "modified rule" that the reserve rules state the opposite. They don't.

No a modified rule states that you arrive by the reserve rules "immediately" not that the reserve rules say anything about immediately.

The part that talks about arriving from reserve is not even used. You're trying to cheery pick words out of a sentence, to turn a rule into something it isn't.

And in the very post where you "corrected [me] enough times on this" you again go on to claim the unit isn't arriving by deep strike. So which is it. Are we arriving by deep strike in which case the half sentence, that is the only thing that defined what arriving by deep strike is, is used other wise we are not arriving by deep strike but deploying by it. Given you don't understand clear statements I am making or even your own argument I advise you calm down read the rules and the entire thread again and then try to disprove one of my two premises or concede.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Seriously. Please stop saying this. I've corrected you enough times on this.

You've still not understood what I've said.

Oh I understand. You're just incorrect. You do arrive via Deep Strike. You don't arrive from Reserve.

See that underlined part? That is correct.
But you stated with your "modified rule" that the reserve rules state the opposite. They don't.

No a modified rule states that you arrive by the reserve rules "immediately" not that the reserve rules say anything about immediately.

That's not what your "modified" rule said, is it?
This is your modified rule:
"Immediately arrive as specified in the Reserves rules then deploy..."
The Reserve rules do not specify the unit arrives immediately. Your made up modified statement is false.
You're twisting a sentence to fit your own belief, and it simply doesn't work.

The part that talks about arriving from reserve is not even used. You're trying to cheery pick words out of a sentence, to turn a rule into something it isn't.

And in the very post where you "corrected [me] enough times on this" you again go on to claim the unit isn't arriving by deep strike. So which is it. Are we arriving by deep strike in which case the half sentence, that is the only thing that defined what arriving by deep strike is, is used other wise we are not arriving by deep strike but deploying by it. Given you don't understand clear statements I am making or even your own argument I advise you calm down read the rules and the entire thread again and then try to disprove one of my two premises or concede.

The part of the rule that covers arriving from reserve is not used. It's been shown many times.
You keep trying to twist that one sentence to keep it in there, and break rules in the process.
I can understand clear statements very well thank you, I can also spot an incorrect one.

Now the only sentence in "arriving from Deep Strike" which hints that the unit is arriving from reserve is this one:
"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy"
You've dodged this question continuously: Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for reserve?

or concede.

This is getting both tiresome and childish. No I will not concede. Your interpretation is incorrect, and even worse, can give others reading this thread an incorrect view on this rule.

You do arrive via Deep Strike. You don't arrive from Reserve.

Which of course is impossible as has been proven. This is a debunked theory. Drop it or support it.

That's not what your "modified" rule said, is it?
This is your modified rule:
"Immediately arrive as specified in the Reserves rules then deploy..."
The Reserve rules do not specify the unit arrives immediately. Your made up modified statement is false.
You're twisting a sentence to fit your own belief, and it simply doesn't work.

Please read what you just said because there is no logic to it. The reserve rules don't need to tell us to arrive immediately. They just need to tell to arrive. GoI tells us that we do this immediately instead of rolling. Why can't you understand this simple statement?

The part of the rule that covers arriving from reserve is not used.

Once again stating you are not arriving by deep strike. GoI disagrees with you.

Now the only sentence in "arriving from Deep Strike" which hints that the unit is arriving from reserve is this one:
"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy"
You've dodged this question continuously: Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for reserve?

That is the only sentence that covers arriving by deep strike after that you are deploying by deep strike. I have actually answered that question already. No need to answer again.

This is getting both tiresome and childish. No I will not concede. Your interpretation is incorrect, and even worse, can give others reading this thread an incorrect view on this rule.

Well your interpretation revolves around the unit not arriving by deep strike despite GoI telling you it does and that arriving by deep strike is not arriving from reserves despite the DS rules telling you it is. Sorry but an interpretation that is based on ignoring both the rules in question is the one that is not correct.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Which of course is impossible as has been proven. This is a debunked theory. Drop it or support it.

You claim it has been debunked. You havn't proven it. Your debunk was debunked.

Please read what you just said because there is no logic to it. The reserve rules don't need to tell us to arrive immediately. They just need to tell to arrive. GoI tells us that we do this immediately instead of rolling. Why can't you understand this simple statement?

No logic? This is your statement. I'm showing why it's wrong. You are unable to back this statement up.

Once again stating you are not arriving by deep strike. GoI disagrees with you.

Once again. That's not what i'm stating. This will be explained bellow... once again.

Now the only sentence in "arriving from Deep Strike" which hints that the unit is arriving from reserve is this one:
"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy"
You've dodged this question continuously: Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for reserve?

That is the only sentence that covers arriving by deep strike after that you are deploying by deep strike. I have actually answered that question already. No need to answer again.

Please give me the page number for the rule "deploying by deep strike" that you keep refering to?
Page 36 has a rule called "arriving by Deep Strike". This is the rule I'm saying you use. The rule you (incorrectly) say i'm not using.
The first sentance of this rule does not, cannot apply when using GOI. It is still the rule "Arriving by Deep Strike". You still follow this rule.
The rule you keep refering to "deploying by deep strike" does not exist.

And the answer to that question above is "No, you are not rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for Reserve. Therefore you are not using the rules for Reserve. Therefore you are not, cannot be arriving from Reserve".

Well your interpretation revolves around the unit not arriving by deep strike despite GoI telling you it does and that arriving by deep strike is not arriving from reserves despite the DS rules telling you it is. Sorry but an interpretation that is based on ignoring both the rules in question is the one that is not correct.

Your interpretation ignored the GOI rules. Your assumption that I am not using the "Arriving from Deep Strike" rule is false.
Your interpretation is using a rule that we are told not to use.
In short: Incorrect.

Please give me the page number for the rule "deploying by deep strike" that you keep refering to?
Page 36 has a rule called "arriving by Deep Strike". This is the rule I'm saying you use. The rule you (incorrectly) say i'm not using.

Page 36 first paragraph under the title "Arriving by Deep Strike". As has been pointed out in this thread. Please read that rule. It tells you what arriving by deep strike is and what deploying by deep strike is. They are two distinct things that you keep confusing. One is done after the other.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please give me the page number for the rule "deploying by deep strike" that you keep refering to?
Page 36 has a rule called "arriving by Deep Strike". This is the rule I'm saying you use. The rule you (incorrectly) say i'm not using.

Page 36 first paragraph under the title "Arriving by Deep Strike". As has been pointed out in this thread. Please read that rule. It tells you what arriving by deep strike is and what deploying by deep strike is. They are two distinct things that you keep confusing. One is done after the other.

That is still the rule: "Arriving by Deep Strike", correct?
There is no seperate rule called "Deploying by Deep Strike".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BRB p36 " Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start in Reserve

This shows us there are two requirements to Deep Striking.
Question 1). The Unit must have the Deep Strike Rule
Question 2). The unit must start the game in Reserve.

BRB p422 "Gate of Infinity wrote:Gate of Infinity is a Blessing that targets the Psyker and his unit...
... Remove the target unit from the board. It then immedediatley arrives unsing the rules for Deep Strike..

Answer 1). Ability is effecting the entire unit. Requirement met.
Answer 2). Unit is not in Reserve, but on the table. Rule says use this anyway. Requirement bypassed.

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
* First, place....

Question 3). Roll for the arrival of the reserved unit as specified in the rules for reserves.
Question 4). Deploy them as follows

BRB p422 "Gate of Infinity wrote:Remove the target unit from the board. It then immedediatley arrives unsing the rules for Deep Strike..

Answer 3). The unit was not in Reserve (see answer "2"), but instead arrives immediatley. You cannot "Roll for the arrival as specified in the rules for Reserve".

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified for Reserves Arrive immediatley and then deploy them as follows:
* First, place....

Answer 4). Deploy them as follows.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Deep Strike rules at no point ever say a unit is in reserve.
It requires that the unit start in reserve.
It requires that you roll for reserves.
Two requirements that are bypassed by GOI.

Per your interpretation of the rules, grendel083, Mordrak is not arriving from reserves via his ability because no roll is made. Not a correct statement.

If the models are removed from the table before deep striking back on to the table, where are the models before they arrive? To answer this, look at the Deep Strike Mishap Table. Where does it tell us to place a deep striking unit that is neither removed from play nor placed by the opponent? Oh, that's right, back in Reserve. How does a unit that started on the table get placed 'back into reserves"? By being removed from the table before returning via deep strike.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Per your interpretation of the rules, grendel083, Mordrak is not arriving from reserves via his ability because no roll is made. Not a correct statement.

If the models are removed from the table before deep striking back on to the table, where are the models before they arrive? To answer this, look at the Deep Strike Mishap Table. Where does it tell us to place a deep striking unit that is neither removed from play nor placed by the opponent? Oh, that's right, back in Reserve. How does a unit that started on the table get placed 'back into reserves"? By being removed from the table before returning via deep strike.

Read the rules for Embarking please, page page 78.
"Remove it from the table"
Are you suggesting that every model not on the table must be dead or in reserve? The rules disagree.
By your definition, every embarked unit is in Reserve.

Where does it tell us to place a deep striking unit that is neither removed from play nor placed by the opponent

Ongoing Reserve, in the event of a mishap only. Has a mishap occured? Is there any reason to place it in Ongoing Reserve? No and No.
This rule really isn't saying what you think/want/hope it's saying.

FlingitNow: I think the problem here is that a strict reading of the Deep Strike rules (which only apply to models coming in from reserves, yes) is not really applicable to a unit that arrives 'as if from a deep strike'.

To me, reading something like that (as if from...), means I would suspend the precursory rules, as GoI overwrites them, then carry on using the deep strike rules as of the time models are placed in their new location (so, they count as already having moved, cannot assault, etc)

The Deep Strike rules at no point ever say a unit is in reserve.
It requires that the unit start in reserve.
It requires that you roll for reserves.
Two requirements that are bypassed by GOI.

While I agree with this. It is irrelevant. The rules tell you what arriving from deep strike is (roll for the arrival of deep striking unit as specified in the rules for reserves) it also tells us what happens after we arrive by deep strike (then deploy them as follows).

You keep on confusing deploying by deep strike and arriving by deep strike. Yet the rules tells is they are two distinct things that occur in a specified order. If you are arriving by deep strike you are by definition arriving from reserve. Just as models using DWA or Mordraks ability or are arriving after turn 3 don't roll they are still arriving from reserve. GoI is just another rule that over rides the roll. It does not say we are not coming from reserve it does not say deploy by deep strike thus bypassing arriving from reserve as you claim. It says we are arriving by deep strike.

 FlingitNow wrote:
While I agree with this. It is irrelevant. The rules tell you what arriving from deep strike is (roll for the arrival of deep striking unit as specified in the rules for reserves) it also tells us what happens after we arrive by deep strike (then deploy them as follows).

Arriving from deep strike is that entire rule, not just the first sentence of it. Even if you ignore the first 3 paragraphs, the rule is still "Arriving from Deep Strike", it never becomes "deplying from Deep Strike", that rule does not exist, it is simply a description of what you do while following the rule "Arriving from Deep Strike".
You can't point out this rule in the rulebook, because you are just refering to "Arriving from Deep Strike".

You keep on confusing deploying by deep strike and arriving by deep strike. Yet the rules tells is they are two distinct things that occur in a specified order.

It's all under one rule "Arriving from Deep Strike".
They are not two seperate rules, mearly two parts of the same rule.

If you are arriving by deep strike you are by definition arriving from reserve.

Wrong. It's a requirement that you start the game in reserve, and a further requirement that you make the reserve roll. Two requirements not needed when using GOI. The Deep Strike rules never define the unit as being in Reserve.

Just as models using DWA or Mordraks ability or are arriving after turn 3 don't roll they are still arriving from reserve.

They are required to be in Reserve. They don't have a rule bypassing this requirement as there is in GOI.

GoI is just another rule that over rides the roll. It does not say we are not coming from reserve it does not say deploy by deep strike thus bypassing arriving from reserve as you claim. It says we are arriving by deep strike.

Yes it Overrides the requirements, I've proven this.
And yes they arrive via Deep Strike. Deep Strike does not define the unit as being in Reserve, but requires it.

Arriving from deep strike is that entire rule, not just the first sentence of it. Even if you ignore the first 3 paragraphs, the rule is still "Arriving from Deep Strike", it never becomes "deplying from Deep Strike", that rule does not exist, it is simply a description of what you do while following the rule "Arriving from Deep Strike".
You can't point out this rule in the rulebook, because you are just refering to "Arriving from Deep Strike".

Just because of a title doesn't mean that everything that follows is automatically part of the sane thing as the title particularly if the very first sentence tells us it is not.

Stop ignoring the rules.

The rest of your posted is based on this miss understanding so is moot.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Arriving from deep strike is that entire rule, not just the first sentence of it. Even if you ignore the first 3 paragraphs, the rule is still "Arriving from Deep Strike", it never becomes "deplying from Deep Strike", that rule does not exist, it is simply a description of what you do while following the rule "Arriving from Deep Strike".
You can't point out this rule in the rulebook, because you are just refering to "Arriving from Deep Strike".

Just because of a title doesn't mean that everything that follows is automatically part of the sane thing as the title particularly if the very first sentence tells us it is not.

Stop ignoring the rules.

The rest of your posted is based on this miss understanding so is moot.

I'm sorry, you've made the misunderstanding.
If you only use half the Rending rules, you're still using the Rending rules. You can't magically re-name it "Rending-sort-of" and and apply your new made-up rule to other things.

You are still very much using the "Arrive from Deep Strike" rule.
Your finally argument is false and debunked. You're very much done here. Move along.

Stop ignoring the rules.

Stop making them up.

I'm sorry, you've made the misunderstanding.
If you only use half the Rending rules, you're still using the Rending rules. You can't magically re-name it "Rending-sort-of" and and apply your new made-up rule to other things.

Well if the rending rules said this part is rending after that you do this other thing. Then doing that other thing wouldn't be rending... For instance if they had the casualty removal rules after the rending rules and you had a certain ability that triggered rending automatically you still would have been considered to have made your attack and caused wounds even though you skipped all the actions of the rending rule and would then go on to casualty removal.

So again don't ignore the fact that we are told what arriving by deep strike is and that deploying by deep strike is a distinct rule that happens afterwards.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If the models are removed from the table before deep striking back on to the table, where are the models before they arrive?

The same place that conjured models are before they arrive. And units embarked upon transports. And models that have been removed from play as casualties. And models that are on the shelf but have nothing to do with the game. And yes, even models in reserve. They are all off the table.

Not all models that are off the table are in the same state, though. Some have been removed from play as casualties, some are in reserve, some are eligible to be conjured, some are assumed to be inside other models for game purposes, some are over on the shelf, and some are removed from the board as part of the Gate of Infinity psychic power.

There's no mystery to solve. In each case, we know what state the models are in.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
To answer this, look at the Deep Strike Mishap Table. Where does it tell us to place a deep striking unit that is neither removed from play nor placed by the opponent?

The rules tell us clearly what has to happen for the table to come into play. You're ignoring the instructions for using the Deep Strike Mishap table and making up your own rules instead.

 FlingitNow wrote:

I'm sorry, you've made the misunderstanding.
If you only use half the Rending rules, you're still using the Rending rules. You can't magically re-name it "Rending-sort-of" and and apply your new made-up rule to other things.

Well if the rending rules said this part is rending after that you do this other thing. Then doing that other thing wouldn't be rending... For instance if they had the casualty removal rules after the rending rules and you had a certain ability that triggered rending automatically you still would have been considered to have made your attack and caused wounds even though you skipped all the actions of the rending rule and would then go on to casualty removal.

So again don't ignore the fact that we are told what arriving by deep strike is and that deploying by deep strike is a distinct rule that happens afterwards.

You're still using the Rending rule.
And You're still using the "Arrive from Deep Strike" rule.

"Deplying from Deep Strike" is a made up rule, invented to fit your incorrect interpretation.

I'm only ignoring the rules that GOI tells me to ignore. At least i'm not making them up.

You're still using the Rending rule.
And You're still using the "Arrive from Deep Strike" rule.

"Deplying from Deep Strike" is a made up rule, invented to fit your incorrect interpretation.

The rules disagree with you on both points. Again please stop ignoring what the rules say.

 FlingitNow wrote:

You're still using the Rending rule.
And You're still using the "Arrive from Deep Strike" rule.

"Deplying from Deep Strike" is a made up rule, invented to fit your incorrect interpretation.

The rules disagree with you on both points. Again please stop ignoring what the rules say.

You claim that, but I've demonstrated that the rules agree with me.
Unless you're refering to another of your magical made up rules? If so I'm afraid they aren't in my rulebook.

GoI, by its rules, skips the first part of the deep strike rules with the part where it says simply place them.

If GoI directly places the models, and provides an override for that portion of deep striking, they never get the opportunity to enter reserves.

If Coteaz's power allows you to hit any deep striking unit, you can shoot a GoI unit. If his power only allows you to shoot at a deep strike unit arriving from reserves, then you cannot.

Can someone post up Coteaz's rule up, verbatim?

Fearspect wrote:
Can someone post up Coteaz's rule up, verbatim?

No because that is frowned upon and can incur the wrath of the Emperor. I mean GWs legal team.

That's not anywhere in the forum rules, but I suppose that would be the topic of another thread. Dakkadakka is literally littered with rules snippets.

Nix the request anyway, found it online:

"If an enemy unit arrives from reserves within 12" of Coteaz and within his line of sight..."

Good, that tidied the whole mess here up, summarized here:

1) GoI did not give permission for the unit to enter reserves
2) Deep strike refers to coming from reserves

This debate is not about whether you get to shoot at the unit or not, it is between:

a) GoI did not let them go into reserves (it skipped this), so Coteaz does not trigger, or
b) The game breaks and ends immediately because you simultaneously need to deep strike a unit, but never got permission to place it in reserves to deep strike it in the first place (deep strike does not have the line: place a unit in reserve, or something to that effect).

 Happyjew wrote:

Fearspect wrote:
Can someone post up Coteaz's rule up, verbatim?

No because that is frowned upon and can incur the wrath of the Emperor. I mean GWs legal team.

Sure, but it's okay to quote enough to clarify the issue, right?

"If an enemy unit arrives from reserve..." (C:GK, p 45)

Putting aside the other criteria, the special rule is triggered when a unit arrives from reserve.

(Edited to fix the quote! Darn distractions.)

Fear respect the issue you have is that GoI requires you to arrive by deep strike. Arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve therefore it triggers IBEY. What you are claiming requires GoI to tell you that you are deploying by deep strike, it does not.

You never got to place them in reserve, FlingitNow, you are arguing that it puts the game into an unresolveable game state.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Fear respect the issue you have is that GoI requires you to arrive by deep strike.

True.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve therefore it triggers IBEY.

False. The rule states: "Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves..."

We do not need to use the rules for Reserves, for two reasons:

1.) The unit targeted by Gate of Infinity is not in reserve and is not placed into reserve by the psychic power.
2.) We don't need to figure out if it arrives by Deep Strike, because we are told that it does so immediately.

Under normal conditions, units arriving by Deep Strike do arrive from reserve. However, Gate of Infinity modifies that, allowing us to remove a unit from the board and then have it arrive by Deep Strike somewhere else on the board. It never goes into reserve and, because it is not in reserve, it cannot arrive by Deep Strike without special, explicit permission. Permission that Gate of Infinity gives us.

This is why I brought up the rules for conjuring units (p 68). Conjured units are not in reserve. They're actually not part of the game at all, in any way, until they arrive by Deep Strike. They cannot do anything, as they are not even part of the game, until we are given explicit permission to have them arrive via Deep Strike.

The rules for conjuration and Gate of Infinity both give explicit permission for units that are unquestionably not placed in reserve to arrive by Deep Strike.

 FlingitNow wrote:
What you are claiming requires GoI to tell you that you are deploying by deep strike, it does not.

The rules continue: "...and then deploy them as follows:"

You keep talking about deploying by Deep Strike like it's a separate thing. It's not. The instructions for deploying Deep Striking units are part of the rules for arriving by Deep Strike. However, the rules for arriving by Deep Strike also cover other things that are not in and of themselves deployment. (For example, disembarking from a Deep Striking transport, what can be done during the different phases of the turn the unit arrives, etc.). Also, as I have already pointed out, it is possible to arrive without deploying at all. (After all, the Deep Strike Mishap table only kicks in when a unit arriving by Deep Strike cannot deploy.)

What the rules for Gate of Infinity and Conjuration are both telling us, clearly, is that units that are not in reserve (and would normally not be allowed to Deep Strike) are given permission to arrive by Deep Strike under certain specific conditions.

Stop thinking you are deepstriking for a start.

GoI does not state you go into reserve to deepstrike.

Remove the unit yadda yadda yadda it then arrives immediately using the rules for deepstrike.

Key wording using the rules for. Not via

So, you remove the models from the table, then deep strike them back on to the table. Where were they before they deep strike? Not on the table, because you removed them. I wonder if the Deep Strike rules tell us were the models are at when not on the table? The models are placed in Deep Strike Reserves!?!

Wow, its like there is a specific holding area for model waiting to deep strike, and its right there in the rules!

SJ

They are not in reserve, as GoI does not say to place them into reserves.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
So, you remove the models from the table, then deep strike them back on to the table. Where were they before they deep strike? Not on the table, because you removed them. I wonder if the Deep Strike rules tell us were the models are at when not on the table?

Well they're not in reserve, that's for sure.

The models are placed in Deep Strike Reserves!?!

Nope. Deep Strike never says that.

Wow, its like there is a specific holding area for model waiting to deep strike, and its right there in the rules!

Wow, totally incorrect.
And totally not in the rules. Anywhere.

So when you embark a unit onto a transport, and are told to remove them from the table, do they go into reserve?
Wow, no they don't either! Amazing!

GoI does not trigger coteaz ability. They are not arriving from reserves.


They are using deep strike deployment rules (and only the deployment part of the rule) instead of re-writing them and wasting ink. This constitutes only from the placement of the first model and the scatter roll on down and nothing before it.

The unit is clearly teleporting from one spot on the table to another and is never placed back in reserves.

They are using deep strike deployment rules (and only the deployment part of the rule) instead of re-writing them and wasting ink.

GoI disagrees with this statement. It says you are arriving by deep strike (aka arriving from reserve).

Given these two known facts that the rules explicitly tell us:

1) GoI requires you to arrive by deep strike
2) Arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve

I don't get how there is any argument.

At this point, he is either digging in because he refuses to admit he is incorrect, or is simply trolling.

Anyone reading through this thread can see the clearly provided evidence otherwise, and stating things like 'GoI disagrees with this statement' doesn't refute them.

I think its fine to let the one dissenter go on with his life and the discussion here can stand on its own.

Or indeed I'm pointing to 2 facts that no one can dispute (though some have by ignoring rules). By saying GoI disagrees with someone I am pointing out that what they are saying is in direct contradiction to the instructions in GoI. Which clearly tell us to arrive by deep strike not merely deploy by deep strike. The later being the position of everyone that has disagreed with me so far, and as I've pointed is a position that is demonstrably false.

Arriving by deep strike triggers many rules that merely being deployed by deep strike would not. For instance you can use the Tau Warlord trait to not scatter when arriving by deep strike. But anything that is triggered by arriving from reserve would likewise be triggered like IBEY.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Or indeed I'm pointing to 2 facts that no one can dispute (though some have by ignoring rules). By saying GoI disagrees with someone I am pointing out that what they are saying is in direct contradiction to the instructions in GoI. Which clearly tell us to arrive by deep strike not merely deploy by deep strike. The later being the position of everyone that has disagreed with me so far, and as I've pointed is a position that is demonstrably false.

Arriving by deep strike triggers many rules that merely being deployed by deep strike would not. For instance you can use the Tau Warlord trait to not scatter when arriving by deep strike. But anything that is triggered by arriving from reserve would likewise be triggered like IBEY.

GOI disagrees.

So does Deep Strike.
Your incorrect interpretation only works when using your made-up rule.

There is no such rule as "Deploy by Deep Strike" it is a fiction you've created. The rule is "Arrive by Deep Strike" and as specified by GOI, does not use the Reserve rules.

Your two "facts" are a complete fiction, and no amount of made-up rules will prove you correct.

If you believe GoI says that you are not arriving by deep strike then you need to read GoI. If you believe there are no rules that govern deploying by deep strike then you need to read the DS rules. If you think that arriving by deep strike and deploying by deep strike are the same thing then you need to read the deep strike rules.

All of it is there.

 FlingitNow wrote:
If you believe GoI says that you are not arriving by deep strike then you need to read GoI.

Continue to twist people's words and misrepresent, please. I have always said GOI states you arrive by Deep strike. Clearly you have not only made-up rules, but not read peoples posts, and failed to understand the rules.

If you believe there are no rules that govern deploying by deep strike then you need to read the DS rules.

Another falsehood. Who's state this? Only you claiming that other people have.

If you think that arriving by deep strike and deploying by deep strike are the same thing then you need to read the deep strike rules.

They in fact are under the same rule. It's called "Arriving by Deep Strike". Check the index, it's there. Do you know what rule does not exist? Your fictional "Deploying by Deep Strike". A rule you've invented to prove people wrong. And it fails.
If you deploy by Deep Strike, what rule do you use?
"Arrive by Deep Strike".

All of it is there.

Agreed. Please read it.

You're fixating on rule names and not reading the actual rules. You have said there are no rules for deploying by deep strike yet the deep strike rules going into detail on deploying models. That's is what is meant by deploying by deep strike it is deploying according to the deep strike rules. Likewise arriving is arriving by the deep strike rules and how do they define "arriving"? Oh yes successfully coming from reserve...

Ah rules lawyers, gotta love them, hiwbp with me is that he gets the shots, I don't care about the in and out of the wording or even the raw in this particular discussion, I'm going with he can as it makes the game a little more interesting than someone finding a loophole to get around the I've been expecting you rule.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You have said there are no rules for deploying by deep strike yet the deep strike rules going into detail on deploying models.

Again, no I haven't. Please read what I actually post.
When you deploy via Deep Strike, you use the rule called "Arriving by Deep Strike".

This is your only counter claim to my argument. And it's incorrect.
Your stating that since the Reserve rules aren't used, you "Deploy from Deep Strike", which doesn't work because GOI says "Arrive by Deep Strike".
This is such a weak argument, and doesn't work at all.
You Deploy via Deep Strike using the rule "Arrive by Deep Strike".

GOI states very clearly you use the Deep Strike rules, specifically "Arriving by Deep Strike". In addition it removes the requirement for Reserves and Arriving from Reserve.

That's is what is meant by deploying by deep strike it is deploying according to the deep strike rules.

Which uses the rule "Arriving from Deep Strike".

Likewise arriving is arriving by the deep strike rules and how do they define "arriving"? Oh yes successfully coming from reserve...

GOI disagrees.
It defines that you "arrive immediately"
In addition deep strike NEVER defines a unit as arriving from reserve. That is yet another thing you've made up. Deep Strike requires that the unit be in Reserve, and that you make a reserve roll. Two requirements not needed thanks to the GOI rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
Ah rules lawyers, gotta love them, hiwbp with me is that he gets the shots, I don't care about the in and out of the wording or even the raw in this particular discussion, I'm going with he can as it makes the game a little more interesting than someone finding a loophole to get around the I've been expecting you rule.

Actually the rules lawyering as you put it, is twisting this rule to use IBEY on a unit it should never effect.
It doesn't work RAW.
It doesn't work RAI.
And it definitely doesn't work with the fluff of the rules, if you've read them.
But please continue to abuse your opponents.

So does GoI say use the "Arriving by Deep Strike" rules anywhere? Or does it state that you "arrive" using the deep strike rules? If it is the later why are you not using the ONLY part of the deep strike rules that describe how you arrive?

Oh dear I was one word off.
That still doesn't address all the failings in your interpretation does it?

The entire rule states how you arrive. You can pretend the rest is deploy and not arrive (because deploy and arrive don't have similar meanings in your world), but this has no basis in the rules. It's one rule.

So by your crazy interpretation the unit can only arrive, and then not deploy? So they in fact never return to the table?

Arriving by deep strike does NOT mean you only use the first sentence of "Arrive by Deep Strike".

And where does it define in the deep strike rules that a unit using it are arriving from reserve? Nowhere. It's a requirement, bypassed by GOI.

The entire rule states how you arrive.

In correct whilst the entire rule may be called "Arriving by Deep Strike" (one could argue that is just a title for a section that begins with arriving, fortunately that is irrelevant in this debate) the GoI rules do not reference that rule name. They reference "arriv[ing] by the deep strike rules" and the deep strike rules have a very specific definition of what you are doing when arriving.

Arriving by deep strike does NOT mean you only use the first sentence of "Arrive by Deep Strike".

Not only that sentence but you must use that sentence. This is your issue. If the title was referenced in GoI your argument would have some credence. But it does not it sates you "arrive using the deep strike rules" hence you MUST use the parts of the DS rules that are about arriving fortunately they tell you that you must THEN deploy. But you are still arriving.

Arrive from Reserve is not just that first sentence.
It really is that whole rule.
You can claim it's only the first sentence (the one GOI renders void) and that the rest is "Deploying" therefore you must use that first voided sentence, but this really has no basis in the rules.

GOI bypasses the requirement for a Reserve roll, and the requirement that the unit start the game in reserve.
And at no point does the Deep Strike rule EVER define a unit as arriving from reserve.

The unit doesn't start in reserve, never enters reserve, never uses any of the reserve rules and is never defined as being in reserve.

It really isn't read the rule it tells you which part is arriving by the deep strike rules and which part is deploying by the deep strike rules. There is absolutely no ambiguity in that rule. Again you are getting caught up in a title.

Please point to me where after the "then deploy" it says you are arriving or mentions arriving in anyway other that restrictions on units that have "arrived" (note the past tense).

 FlingitNow wrote:
it tells you which part is arriving by the deep strike rules and which part is deploying by the deep strike rules.

This is a distinction entirely made up by you. No it does not.

There is absolutely no ambiguity in that rule. Again you are getting caught up in a title.

No, you're dividing a rule and creating separate ones.

Please point to me where after the "then deploy" it says you are arriving or mentions arriving in anyway other that restrictions on units that have "arrived" (note the past tense).

Again this is your invention that the rule is divided into "arrive" and "deploy".
GOI even tells you when you arrive. The Deep strike rule then tells you how.

Again this is your invention that the rule is divided into "arrive" and "deploy".

BrB strongly disagrees with this statement. So either read the rules or stop posting.

"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"

Note the bolded parts where is states arrival and then that deploying comes after that. This means they are not the same thing. Also note the Reserves rules are referenced and they use capitals to illustrate this is a named rule being used. Note how the GoI rules do not used the capitalized "Arriving by Deep Strike" named rule. Thus it is not referring to the entire section. It is referring to the part of that section that deals with arriving, which means you MUST use that part of the section...

 FlingitNow wrote:
"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves Arrive immediatly and then deploy them as follows:"

Added in the rules for GOI for you.
There you go, the first sentence IS used. With GOI stating when they arrive and the Deep Strike rule stating how.

Since rolling for reserve is not done, this sentence:
Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves
Is not used.
We do NOT roll for the arrival as specified by the rules for Reserve.

which means you MUST use that part of the section...

And yet the part that refers to reserves (rolling for reserve I might add) is not used thanks to the rules for GOI.

Simply put, why are you using a rule that refers to rolling for reserve, when you're not rolling for reserve?
You don't.

Then we are at an impasse, I believe I doing what GoI and the DS rules tell us you believe that you ignore the part that says you arrive by the deep strike rules and play it as you arrive immediately and then deploy by the the deep strike rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Then we are at an impasse, I believe I doing what GoI and the DS rules tell us you believe that you ignore the part that says you arrive by the deep strike rules and play it as you arrive immediately and then deploy by the the deep strike rules.

You don't roll for reserve.
So you can't use a sentence that tells you to roll for reserve.
Remove that from the equation and there is no reference to reserve.

It's pretty simple.
The Deep strike rules that say when you arrive from reserve you deep strike, are in the same section that says all models in the unit must have the deep strike rule, and that models that must deep strike don't count against your limit of models that can be held in reserve.

So you have 2 options.
1) GoI does nothing, as it doesn't say it gives the Deep Strike Special rule to all the models in the unit, and it doesn't say it placed them in reserve.
OR
2) You ignore the top paragraph, and skip down to Arriving by Deep Strike.

If you try to shoe horn in them counting as reserve, you open a whole can of worms. If I have 12 units and reserve 6 of them, I can't cast GoI as I'm already at my max of units in reserve.

That's an excellent point I hadn't considered.
Only Ongoing Reserve doesn't count towards the Reserve limit, and that isn't mentioned at all.

2) You ignore the top paragraph, and skip down to Arriving by Deep Strike.

Which is exactly what GoI tells you to do and thus you are arriving from reserve and trigger IBEY. Glad we all agree.

 FlingitNow wrote:

2) You ignore the top paragraph, and skip down to Arriving by Deep Strike.

Which is exactly what GoI tells you to do and thus you are arriving from reserve and trigger IBEY. Glad we all agree.

So we roll for reserves then?
If not then the two references to Reserve are null and void. Therefore the unit cannot be arriving from reserve.

If you try to shoe horn in them counting as reserve, you open a whole can of worms. If I have 12 units and reserve 6 of them, I can't cast GoI as I'm already at my max of units in reserve.

Also I assume you had a brain fart here as there are literally no rules governing how many units you can have in reserve during the game.

So we roll for reserves then?
If not then the two references to Reserve are null and void. Therefore the unit cannot be arriving from reserve

We are still "arrived[ing] by the deep strike rules" though which means we are coming from reserve the immediately instruction from GoI over riding the roll.

 FlingitNow wrote:
We are still "arrived[ing] by the deep strike rules" though which means we are coming from reserve the immediately instruction from GoI over riding the roll.

I've underlined the mistake you continue to make.
Reserve is a requirement of Deep Strike. A requirement not needed thanks to GOI.
Deep Strike NEVER defines a unit as arriving from reserve, it requires it (but not in the case of GOI).

BRB p36 " Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start in Reserve

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
* First, place....

These two quotes are the only time Reserves are referenced in the Deep Strike rule.

The first quote is rendered void but the GOI rules. The Unit didn't start in reserve, and doesn't nessisarily have the Deep Strike rule. But we're told to use it anyway.

The Second quote, we are not rolling for reserve as specified in the rules for reserves, instead the unit arrives immediatley. As stated by GOI. So that reference to Reserve is gone.

There are no more references to Reserve. And the Deep Strike rules never define a unit as being in Reserve.
So the unit, quite litterally is not arriving from Reserve.

I've underlined the mistake you continue to make.
Reserve is a requirement of Deep Strike. A requirement not needed thanks to GOI.

Mistake doesn't mean what you think it means. When some one makes a statement of indisputable fact that is not a mistake. Just because reserves is a requirement of Deep Strike (a requirement GoI bypasses) does not mean it is unrelated to arriving by deep strike, because arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve as we are told on page 36.

 FlingitNow wrote:
When some one makes a statement of indisputable fact that is not a mistake.

I agree.
But that isn't what you did. You made a mistake.

Just because reserves is a requirement of Deep Strike (a requirement GoI bypasses) does not mean it is unrelated to arriving by deep strike, because arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve as we are told on page 36.

And here's the mistake.
Arriving from Deep Strike is not arriving from Reserve.
At no point anywhere does the Deep Strike rules say this.
I would ask you to quote it, but there really is no need. It isn't there.
Other than the two requirements refering to being in reserve and rolling for reserves, reserves aren't mentioned in the rule.

Pg 36 tells us "In order for a unit to be able to deep strike, all models in the unit must have the deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserves."

FligitNow, What you are suggesting is only units with a psyker that started the game in reserve but where on the table at the start of the psyker's movement and have the deep strike special rule are legal targets for GoI. Further more GoI will remove the unit from the table, but because the unit is not held in reserves any more the unit cannot be deployed again.

Do you really think that's how it should work?

DJGietzen that text is a restriction on deep striking and has literally nothing to do with "arriv[ing] by the deep strike rules" which is what GoI tells us to use. For some reason which I can't work out Grendel believe that when GW say " arrive by the deep strike rules" he assumes you don't use the deep strike rules for arriving and instead only use the deep strike rules for deploying. Either that or when GW say action A is arriving then deploy, what they actually mean is action A is arriving then continue arriving whilst deploying as such. Why he assumes GW means something completely different to what they wrote I don't understand and why he claims this is RaW is not even remotely fathomable to me.

But RAW:

1) GoI tells you to arrive using the deep strike rules.
2) Deep strike tells us that arriving is coming from reserve

The Deep Strike rules talk about a unit having to start in reserves, but nowhere in the Deep Strike or GoI (or VoD) rules does it give you specific permission to place the unit in reserves. So either GoI gives you permission to ignore the requirement being placed in reserves or you can never use it, as you are never given express permission to place the unit in reserves except at the start of the game.

Who's said that GoI places you in reserve?

 FlingitNow wrote:
1) GoI tells you to arrive using the deep strike rules.

True

2) Deep strike tells us that arriving is coming from reserve

False. It does no such thing.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Who's said that GoI places you in reserve?

Nobody, which is part of my point. Explain to me how Coteaz get's his special rule to activate if the unit is never placed in reserve, which neither the Deep Strike rules nor GoI gives you express permission to do.

Grendel read the DS rules they are very clear on what arriving is. So you either agree with point 2 or find some rules that illustrate the DS rules defining arriving as something beyond coming from reserves or concede.

Maelstrom: Coteaz's rule is triggered when ever a unit arrives from reserve which GoI makes you do.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Grendel read the DS rules they are very clear on what arriving is. So you either agree with point 2 or find some rules that illustrate the DS rules defining arriving as something beyond coming from reserves.

Go on then. Quote the line.
You know full well it doesn't exist. Reserves are mentioned twice, both requirements. Neither time says what you claim.

or concede

This childish line again? Do you only use this when you have no leg to stand on?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Maelstrom: Coteaz's rule is triggered when ever a unit arrives from reserve which GoI makes you do.

False.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Maelstrom: Coteaz's rule is triggered when ever a unit arrives from reserve which GoI makes you do.

I am well aware of what his rule does. Specifically, where are you given permission to place a unit into reserves using GoI?

Go on then. Quote the line.
You know full well it doesn't exist.

I have done repeatedly.

Specifically, where are you given permission to place a unit into reserves using GoI?

No where who's said you get placed in reserves? GoI says you "arrive using the deep strike rules", the deep strike rules define arriving as coming from reserve.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Go on then. Quote the line.
You know full well it doesn't exist.

I have done repeatedly.

No you haven't. Not once.
It doesn't exits.
I'm calling your bluff now FlingitNow. Quote the line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
the deep strike rules define arriving as coming from reserve.

False.

The first line under the title "Arriving by Deep Strike". How many times have I quoted that line Grendel?

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first line under the title "Arriving by Deep Strike". How many times have I quoted that line Grendel?

This line?

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

This can't be the line you're on about, because this does NOT define a unit as arriving from reserve.
This line says you must make a reserve roll.
It says roll for arrival. Then says where the rule is found.
You'll find the Reserve rules define a unit as arriving from reserve, not Deep Strike, and not this line.

Not only that, but due to the rules of GOI, this line is null and void. You are not rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for reserve.
So even if this line did define the unit as arriving from reserve (it doesn't), it is rendered null and void by GOI.

We really are done here.
Rules are clear. Using GOI has nothing to do with Reserves.

 grendel083 wrote:

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

This can't be the line you're on about, because this does NOT define a unit as arriving from reserve.
This line says you must make a reserve roll.
It says roll for arrival. Then says where the rule is found.
You'll find the Reserve rules define a unit as arriving from reserve, not Deep Strike, and not this line.

Exactly this.

 FlingitNow wrote:
DJGietzen that text is a restriction on deep striking and has literally nothing to do with "arriv[ing] by the deep strike rules" which is what GoI tells us to use. For some reason which I can't work out Grendel believe that when GW say " arrive by the deep strike rules" he assumes you don't use the deep strike rules for arriving and instead only use the deep strike rules for deploying. Either that or when GW say action A is arriving then deploy, what they actually mean is action A is arriving then continue arriving whilst deploying as such. Why he assumes GW means something completely different to what they wrote I don't understand and why he claims this is RaW is not even remotely fathomable to me.

But RAW:

1) GoI tells you to arrive using the deep strike rules.
2) Deep strike tells us that arriving is coming from reserve

2) - No it does not. Every single mention of reserves in the Deep strike rule stem from that very 1st sentence, The whole page is written from the perspective that the only units that could use these rules are ones that started the game in reserves.

How, if I may ask, Do you "Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves..." as page 124 makes it quite clear you only roll for units held in reserves. The target of GoI is never put in reserves, there is nothing to roll for. Either we assume that means they cannot arrive from deep strike because they would need to come from reserves or we ignore this portion of the arrive from deep strike and just move on to "... and deploy them as fallows."

Bottom line, you can't arrive from reserves if you are not in reserves and there are WAY to many things that arrive via deep strike that are not in reserves. GoI is just one example.

Well guys if you can't understand the rule that has been quoted just read the rest of the thread that should enlighten you. The rules tell us to arrive by deep strike this does not mean deploy by deep strike as you guys keep suggesting. The DS rules tell us what is arriving (coming from reserve) and what is deploying (everything after that). If you "arrive by the deep strike rules" you arrive from reserve RAW.

 FlingitNow wrote:
you arrive from reserve RAW.

As has been proven, quoted and demonstrated this is false.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Well guys if you can't understand the rule that has been quoted just read the rest of the thread that should enlighten you. The rules tell us to arrive by deep strike this does not mean deploy by deep strike as you guys keep suggesting. The DS rules tell us what is arriving (coming from reserve) and what is deploying (everything after that). If you "arrive by the deep strike rules" you arrive from reserve RAW.

Actually, doesn't the rule state "arrive immediately using the rules for deep strike"? Not to arrive by deep strike. There is a (sort of, but not quite) subtle difference there. You are not arriving by deep strike. At least that's not what the rules for GoI tell us. Arrive immediately (not arrive by deep strike) using the rules for Deep Strike (which requires being in reserves + having the deep strike USR on all models, neither of which is true of a unit using GoI, but is bypassed by the rules for GoI telling us to have the models "arrive immediately" "using the rules for DS".

But hey, if you can't understand the rule that has been quoted, just read the rest of the thread. That should enlighten you.

Seriously, Mods .. this thread has gone on in circular "I'm right" - "No, I'm right" for far too long. How many times can 2-3 people quote the exact same rule and provide their exact same interpretation of that same rule over again before it is ridiculous?

Actually, doesn't the rule state "arrive immediately using the rules for deep strike"? Not to arrive by deep strike. There is a (sort of, but not quite) subtle difference there.

Exactly it says arrive using the deep strike rules which means you MUST use the deep strike rules regarding arriving and what do the deep strike rules define as arriving? So why are you and others contending that we don't use the deep strike rules for arriving but in stead use the deep strike rules for deploying?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Actually, doesn't the rule state "arrive immediately using the rules for deep strike"? Not to arrive by deep strike. There is a (sort of, but not quite) subtle difference there.

Exactly it says arrive using the deep strike rules which means you MUST use the deep strike rules regarding arriving and what do the deep strike rules define as arriving? So why are you and others contending that we don't use the deep strike rules for arriving but in stead use the deep strike rules for deploying?

Becasue the rules for GOI remove all reference to Reserve.
Since the unit was never in reserve and the rules for both GOI and Deep Strike never define the unit as being in reserve, the unit is not arrivng from reserve.

GoI doesn't need to mention reserves it tells us to use the rules for arriving found in the Deep Strike USR. What do the deep strike rules say arriving is?

 FlingitNow wrote:
GoI doesn't need to mention reserves it tells us to use the rules for arriving found in the Deep Strike USR. What do the deep strike rules say arriving is?

Arriving? Is rolling for reserves as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploying in a specified manner.

Arriving? Is rolling for reserves as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploying in a specified manner

The bolded part is nearly correct the rest has nothing to do with arriving according to the DS rules. Arriving is successfully making a reserve roll (failed reserve rolls do not lead to arrival by the DS rules) so arriving is not taking the test but passing it. GoI makes us auto pass it (immediately arrive).

 FlingitNow wrote:

Arriving? Is rolling for reserves as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploying in a specified manner

The bolded part is nearly correct the rest has nothing to do with arriving according to the DS rules. Arriving is successfully making a reserve roll (failed reserve rolls do not lead to arrival by the DS rules) so arriving is not taking the test but passing it. GoI makes us auto pass it (immediately arrive).

Citation needed for the underlined.

Citation is the part in brackets, it is from the GoI rules.

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

Arriving is also this part, as well as the rules to go with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Citation is the part in brackets, it is from the GoI rules.

GOI does not make you auto-pass. There is no roll to pass or fail. It removes the need to roll completely, which in turn removes any reference to reserves.

Arriving is also this part, as well as the rules to go with it.

Citation required because the rule you just posted states the exact opposite of that. It states you do action A to decide arrival and then deploy making the deployment part a separate distinct action.

GOI does not make you auto-pass.

It makes you immediately arrive. Arriving is passing a reserves roll (unless you are claiming that units arrive regardless of pass or fail of the roll), so GoI tells you to "immediately [pass a reserves roll] using the deep strike rules".

 FlingitNow wrote:

Arriving is also this part, as well as the rules to go with it.

Citation required because the rule you just posted states the exact opposite of that. It states you do action A to decide arrival and then deploy making the deployment part a separate distinct action.

Your "action A" isn't even used when using GOI, so why do you keep refering to it? The requirement (yes requirement, that's all it is) to make a reserve roll is bypassed by the rules of GOI.
You definition of "arriving" does not even come into play.

GOI does not make you auto-pass.

It makes you immediately arrive. Arriving is passing a reserves roll (unless you are claiming that units arrive regardless of pass or fail of the roll), so GoI tells you to "immediately [pass a reserves roll] using the deep strike rules".

This is another of your made-up rules i'm afraid.
There is a huge difference between auto-passing a roll and not needing to roll at all.
If you'd like an example, how about shooting at fliers?
An "auto-hit" will not hit them, but an effect that simply causes a hit will.

And you can't pass a reserve roll, the unit isn't in reserve! It's one of the fundamental requirements of reserve. The entire rolling process is bypassed, it isn't passed because the reserve rules won't allow it.
Unless you're saying GOI bypasses the need to be in reserve, in which case hurrah! the unit isn't arriving from reserve. Glad you got there in the end.

Your "action A" isn't even used when using GOI, so why do you keep refering to it? The requirement (yes requirement, that's all it is) to make a reserve roll is bypassed by the rules of GOI.
You definition of "arriving" does not even come into play.

And back to the claim that GoI says "deploy using the deep strike rules". It does not say that stop claiming that it does. You must use the arriving part of the sentence because you are told to arrive using the deep strike rules, you can't just skip to the part about deploying using the deep strike rules.

This is another of your made-up rules i'm afraid.
There is a huge difference between auto-passing a roll and not needing to roll at all.
If you'd like an example, how about shooting at fliers?
An "auto-hit" will not hit them, but an effect that simply causes a hit will.

What do the GoI rules tell us to do?
What do the DS rules tell us arriving is?

And you can't pass a reserve roll, the unit isn't in reserve! It's one of the fundamental requirements of reserve.

A requirement GoI bypasses. Just as starting in reserve is one of the fundamental requirements of Deep Striking (which GoI also bypasses).

 FlingitNow wrote:

Your "action A" isn't even used when using GOI, so why do you keep refering to it? The requirement (yes requirement, that's all it is) to make a reserve roll is bypassed by the rules of GOI.
You definition of "arriving" does not even come into play.

And back to the claim that GoI says "deploy using the deep strike rules". It does not say that stop claiming that it does. You must use the arriving part of the sentence because you are told to arrive using the deep strike rules, you can't just skip to the part about deploying using the deep strike rules.

The "arrive sentence" also states "then deploy them as follows". Part that YOU keep skipping. Arriving isn't just the reserve roll. It's reserve roll and deploying.
The reserve roll is replaced by "immediately arrive", then you deploy.
All reference to reserve is removed thanks to GOI. Another point you keep skipping.
Thanks to GOI the unit "arrives immediately then deploys". That is what arriving by GOI is defined as. No reserves at all.

This is another of your made-up rules i'm afraid.
There is a huge difference between auto-passing a roll and not needing to roll at all.
If you'd like an example, how about shooting at fliers?
An "auto-hit" will not hit them, but an effect that simply causes a hit will.

What do the GoI rules tell us to do?

Arrive immediately via Deep Strike.

What do the DS rules tell us arriving is?

Make a reserve roll then deploy.

So there is no reserve roll at all. It most definitely isn't an auto-pass roll.

And you can't pass a reserve roll, the unit isn't in reserve! It's one of the fundamental requirements of reserve.

A requirement GoI bypasses. Just as starting in reserve is one of the fundamental requirements of Deep Striking (which GoI also bypasses).

Great, so you agree GOI bypasses the need for a reserve roll?
That's the last reference to reserve in the Deep Strike rule. If this is bypassed, then the unit definitely is not, cannot be in reserve. Thank you for finally admitting that.

I've read though each post in the thread. It was a good read. One question though, if the unit using GoI deploys using a scatter dice, what happens if the unit scatters into a building or another squad. Do we still use the mishap table?

Of course they mishap.
Nothing in GOI says they wouldn't.

The "arrive sentence" also states "then deploy them as follows".

Exactly "then deploy" as in something you do next after arriving part of the sentence. So we're agreed deploying by the deep strike ruled is something you do after arriving by the deep strike rules. What does GoI tell us to do?

 FlingitNow wrote:

The "arrive sentence" also states "then deploy them as follows".

Exactly "then deploy" as in something you do next after arriving part of the sentence. So we're agreed deploying by the deep strike ruled is something you do after arriving by the deep strike rules. What does GoI tell us to do?

No, it's something you do after rolling for reserve. Both are part of arriving.
You seem to be confusing "arriving from reserve" with "arriving from Deep Strike".
To arrive via Deep strike you must make the reserve roll AND deploy. Deploying is part of arriving.
"Roll for the arival" is simply arriving from reserve, until you deploy as well you have not arrived via Deep Strike.

And since GOI removes to reserve roll, in order to arrive via Deep Strike you must "arrive immediatly" and then "deploy as follows".

No, it's something you do after rolling for reserve. Both are part of arriving.

Citation.

To arrive via Deep strike you must make the reserve roll AND deploy. Deploying is part of arriving.

Again you need a citation because the DS rules strongly disagree with this statement. Deployment is a requirement imposed on anyone arriving. It is something you must do AFTER arriving as stated in the DS rules. Just as rolling to wound is something you must do after hitting in the shooting phase both are part of shooting but rolling to wound is not part of hitting. For instance if you have an effect that "immediately causes a S6 AP- hits on a FMC using the shooting rules" would cause you to roll to would, however you have not rolled to hit yet it would trigger a grounding test...

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, it's something you do after rolling for reserve. Both are part of arriving.

Citation.

Seriously?

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

Deployment is a requirement imposed on anyone arriving

So you can't arrive until you've deployed? Excellent, finally you're getting there. Thank you for admitting that deploying is part of arriving from Deep Strike.
Deployment is indeed part of arriving. Not only does the first sentence of "Arriving from Deep Strike" tell us this... but so does the very name of the rule.

It is something you must do AFTER arriving as stated in the DS rules. Just as rolling to wound is something you must do after hitting in the shooting phase both are part of shooting but rolling to wound is not part of hitting.

No, but it's still part of shooting. Reserve roll and deployment are part of arrivng from deep strike.

I don't know how you cherry pick the sentence in such a bizzare way.
You admit that the reserve roll is bypassed, but that it somehow must still be used (a complete contradiction).
You've said many times the first sentence is "arriving" but you then later want toskip the last part of the sentence.
So if the first part is bypassed and the second part ignored... there's no sentence left... but somehow they're magically in reserve, despite reserve being bypassed.

The First sentence is arriving, that includes deploy. You've already addmitted the reserve roll is bypassed (yet why you continue to then refer to it is beyond reason).
So with GOI, arriving from Deep Strike is as follows:

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified for Reserves Immediatley arrive and then deploy them as follows:

Deployment is a requirement imposed on anyone arriving. It is something you must do AFTER arriving

So see the contradiction in this statement? If it's a requirement, it can't happen after can it? The requirement must be fulfilled before the event can be complete.
And if it is a requirement of arriving, then it is infact part of arriving.

Requirement on not of. Models arriving by the deep strikes rulesaare required to deploy by the deep strike rules. Just as models rolling to hit with the shooting rules are required to roll to wound.

I also noted you said seriously after being asked for a citation and have failed to provide one (you did bizarrely post a rule that says the opposite of what you where being asked to cite).

The rule is called Deep Strike. "Arriving by Deep Strike" is merely a title for a section within that rule.

Basically you disagree that GoI requires you to use the part of the deep strike rule that governs arrival and instead only use the parts that govern deployment. This is contradictory to what GoI tells us to do.

We know:

1) We must arrive using the DS rules
2) The DS rules defines arriving as successfully making a Reserves roll.

Since the BrB is cast iron on those two facts you have literally no case. If you disagree with either of those 2 statements please admit that you are not arguing RAW because I have repeatedly proven those two statements are true RAW.

 FlingitNow wrote:
2) The DS rules defines arriving as successfully making a Reserves roll.

First point: GOI overrides the reserve roll. It isn't taken. So the unit isn't arriving from reserve.
Second point: Deep Strike defines arriving as taking a reserve roll and then deploying.

You asked for citation, I proved it. It says right in the sentence about arriving "and then deploy as follows."
You can choose to ignore this part of the sentence all you like. But it's right there.

Since the BrB is cast iron on those two facts you have literally no case. If you disagree with either of those 2 statements please admit that you are not arguing RAW because I have repeatedly proven those two statements are true RAW.

I have an exceptionally strong case thank you. And it's very much RAW. Your arguments have been disproven at every turn. You've made up rules on two occasions. Your statements contradict each other constantly.
You are not arguing RAW. You are not arguing RAI. You're just arguing. With invented rules and ignored sentences.

Due to the wording of GOI, all references to Reserve are overridden. Not used. Yet you continue to refer to them.

Deploying by Deep Strike is part of Arriving by Deep a Strike.
Until a unit has deployed, it has not fully arrived.
You can keep claiming that deploying is not part of arriving, but this is flat out wrong. The "Arriving from Deep Strike" rule is very clear on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Basically you disagree that GoI requires you to use the part of the deep strike rule that governs arrival

I'd just like the further clarify the main mistake you're making.
"that governs arrival"
Arrival from what? That part of the sentence governs arrival from Reserve.
We are attempting arrival from Deep Strike.
You're confusing the two.

To arrive from Deep Strike you must arrive from reserve and deploy as instructed.

2) The DS rules defines arriving from reserve as successfully making a Reserves roll.

Fixed point 2 for you.

Actually, FlingItNow, you are ignoring the first two fundamental requirements of Deep Strike: 1) In order for a unit to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule 2) The unit must start the game in reserve.

In addition to the GOI power, the GK Librarian's Summoning rule states "the chosen unit is removed from the tabletop and immediately placed within 6" of the Librarian using the Deep Strike rules"

In both the GOI and Summoning rules, the first two requirements of the Deep Strike rule are ignored without any permission to do so. Chosen units don't have to have the Deep Strike Special ability nor do they have to start the game in reserve. Therefore, how can you continue applying additional Deep Strike rules, when the fundamental requirement to Deep Strike has not been met? There must be implicit permission to ignore these two requirements for both these rules and other special rules that reference Deep Strike.

Both GOI and Summoning state remove from the table. One assumption is that the unit goes into reserves. The other camp assumes the unit does not go into reserves. Either could be right. But, since you don't apply the fundamental Deep Strike rules, you must consider that other requirements of the Deep Strike rules may not apply either.

Units that enter reserves part way through the game are by definition Ongoing Reserves. By definition, units re-entering from Ongoing Reserves must enter on their controller's players following turn, not the current turn. This lends credence that the units do not enter reserves.

First point: GOI overrides the reserve roll. It isn't taken. So the unit isn't arriving from reserve.
Second point: Deep Strike defines arriving as taking a reserve roll and then deploying.

You asked for citation, I proved it. It says right in the sentence about arriving "and then deploy as follows."

Thank you for disproving your own argument. You are now just arguing for the sake of it. We both now know my interpretation is correct RAW as you're quoting the RAW that is on my side. "and then deploy" is exactly what it says and illustrates this is a new action you do after arrival. The fact that you think that and then means this occurs at the same time and is part of the first action illustrates that your argument has no founding at all.

Brian:

Actually, FlingItNow, you are ignoring the first two fundamental requirements of Deep Strike: 1) In order for a unit to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule 2) The unit must start the game in reserve.

Yes I am as I am instructed to do so by GoI. I am instructed to arrive by the deep strike rules. This means I skip to the past about arriving (not skip to the part after arriving about deployment as Grendel claims).

You then witter on about whether units get placed in reserve. I have never stated units get placed in reserve in fact I've stated the exact opposite on numerous occasions.

Please read the Deep Strike and GoI rules. These 2 facts will then become apparent:

1) GoI tells us to arrive using the DS rules (not deploy as Grendel claims but arrive).
2) DS rules tell us arriving is making a success reserves roll.

Therefore if you are arriving by the deep strike rules you are arriving from reserve. This is true despite the fact you are never placed in reserve (you are never told to do so). It allows you to use Farsight's warlord trait but it also triggers IBEY. Take the rough with the smooth.

Regardless of how anyone interprets the RAW, the RAI is that they arent leaving the table and going into reserves, they just teleport from point a to point b. coteaz no worky.

 FlingitNow wrote:
2) DS rules tell us arriving from reserve is making a success reserves roll

Fixed that for you.

The rest of your post isn't worth addressing. You've been proven wrong. You're just arguing for the sake of it, nothing in your post was even slightly correct. You're done here.

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
2) DS rules tell us arriving from reserve is making a success reserves roll

Fixed that for you.

The rest of your post isn't worth addressing. You've been proven wrong. You're just arguing for the sake of it, nothing in your post was even slightly correct. You're done here.

The DS rules don't tell us what arriving from reserves is the Reserves rules tell us that. The DS rules tell us what arriving by deep strike is.

The rest I'd simply bizarre. Is this a bluff? Literally everything I have said is supported by the rules where as you think that GoI only uses the deploying by deep strike rules despite it telling you it uses the arriving by deep strike rules. You also believe that when a rule tells you one action is A and then do B that means A=B which is just nonsense.

Please clearly label your arguments as RaI or The Rules they are not RAW. If you want to discuss the RaI I am happy to do so. But RAW here is clear and you either know that or you can't comprehend what I've said in either case there is no point going on.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The DS rules don't tell us what arriving from reserves is the Reserves rules tell us that. The DS rules tell us what arriving by deep strike is.

Deep Strike tells us that arriving from deep strike is:
1). Arrivng from reserve, then
2). Deploying as specified

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

There are two forms of arrival in use here.
Arrival from Reverve
Arrival from Deep Strike

You would have us believe that:
"arrival from Deep Strike" == "arrival from Reserve"
That they are the same. That arriving from deep strike is simply a reserve roll.
This is simply wrong, theyre not the same.

"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units" arrival from where?
"as specified in the rules for Reserves" p124 tells us this is Arriving from Reserve.

So we have "arrive from Reserve" and then deploy them as follows:
Now we are not arriving from reserve but instead "arrive immediatley" thanks to GOI.

Your claim that "arrive from deep strike" is the same as "arrive from reserve" is simply wrong.
Arrive from Deep Strike is Arrive from reserve AND THEN DEPLOY.

You can continue to ignore that part of the Deep Strike rule all you like, but your arguement still fails.

Literally everything I have said is supported by the rules

Litterally everything you've said has been shown as incorrect time and time again. You've become so stubborn you're not even looking at the rules, and instead keep repeating the same broken arguement.
You've admitted GOI bypasses reserves, but continue to refer to it. A complete contradiction.

Please clearly label your arguments as RaI or The Rules they are not RAW. If you want to discuss the RaI I am happy to do so. But RAW here is clear and you either know that or you can't comprehend what I've said in either case there is no point going on.

Please lable your arguements as "made-up". That's all they are. I've proven they're not RAW, they're definitley not RAI, they're a work of fiction.

"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units" arrival from where?
"as specified in the rules for Reserves" p124 tells us this is Arriving from Reserve.

Exactly arriving by the deep strike rules is arriving from reserve as you've just proven.

So we have units arriving by deep strike "arrive from Reserve" and then deploy them as follows:

Fixed that for you. And as we agreed that arriving in the deep strike rules is arriving from reserve and that deploying is something we do after (and then deploy), what we need to know now is where in that sentence does GoI tell us to get involved. Is it at the deploy part or the arrive part?

Seriously you're proving your own argument wrong. Is this just trolling or are you actually on my side and trying to illustrate how baseless the opposite argument with what I can only conclude is deliberately sarcastic arguments.

 FlingitNow wrote:
arriving by the deep strike rules is arriving from reserve

False, but please continue to ignore rules and make your own up. You've been shown enough times this is wrong.

Arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve AND deploying. The rules are very clear on this.

I'll ignore your insults about trolling and your constant twisting of my words to justify your clearly inncorect arguement.
Fortunatly anyone else reading the thread or looking at the actual rules will see how very wrong you are.

False, but please continue to ignore rules and make your own up. You've been shown enough times this is wrong

Yet you yourself have proven this to be true. So claiming I've been "shown enough times this is wrong" is either massively delusional or an outright lie.

 FlingitNow wrote:

False, but please continue to ignore rules and make your own up. You've been shown enough times this is wrong

Yet you yourself have proven this to be true. So claiming I've been "shown enough times this is wrong" is either massively delusional or an outright lie.

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

The part you continue to ignore.

The rules have shown you inncorrrect, and now you're resorting to more personal insults.
I'm a liar now? and dilusional? Any more insults?

I'd respectfully suggest you calm down, and avoid posting for a while. Hopefully you'll find your manners during that time.

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

False, but please continue to ignore rules and make your own up. You've been shown enough times this is wrong

Yet you yourself have proven this to be true. So claiming I've been "shown enough times this is wrong" is either massively delusional or an outright lie.

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

The part you continue to ignore.

The rules have shown you inncorrrect, and now you're resorting to more personal insults.
I'm a liar now? and dilusional? Any more insults?

I'd respectfully suggest you calm down, and avoid posting for a while. Hopefully you'll find your manners during that time.

This is exceedingly clear.

For IBEY, the target unit must be arriving from reserves.
A unit using GOI at the start of the turn is on the table, and not in reserves.
Nothing in the GOI wording instructs us to place the unit in reserves.
IBEY cannot be used on a unit using GOI within 12" of coteaz.

This is how RAW works. The rule must be in writing. GOI is an exception to normal DS rules. Normal DS rules require the entire unit to have the DS USR. GOI must be an exception to this or else it would be unusable. Normal DS rules require the unit to be reserved. GOI must be an exception to this because the unit using the power is on the table.

The reason why the "YMDC A-team" is largely silent on this matter is that FlingItNow has his own personal defitnition of RAW which is contradictory to the definition everyone else uses. Several prolific rules experts even have him on ignore because of past discussions.

There's a reason FlingItNow is the only person debating that IBEY works against GOI. I would wager an entire army that if this thread had a RAW poll, 80%+ would say it cannot be used against GOI.

Let him say what he wants, there's no rule or popular belief support of his stance.

You're right, only myself to blame.
The rule was clear on page 1 of the thread, I should have left it there instead of trying to explain a mistake.

The part you continue to ignore.

How do I ignore that part? You ignore that it says "and then deploy". Thus this is a new action done after whatever the first part of the sentence is talking about, which of course is arriving. So deploying by the deep strike rules is something you do after arriving by the deep strike rules.

As for why Rigeld has me on ignore it is because he doesn't like that I think the rules were designed by the GW design team and strongly disagrees with the idea that the GW design team designed the rules.

There's 2 ways to be placed in reserves. Held in reserve at the beginning of the game, or have a special rule that allows you to enter ongoing reserves.

A unit using GOI has neither.

Can you quote the part of GOI that instructs us to place the unit into reserves?

You cannot use the deep strike rule, because GOI is an exception to the prerequisites. Deep strike requires all models to share that USR, and requires the unit to be held in reserve. GOI allows us to bypass both of those requirements otherwise the psychic power would not work. GOI never instructs us to place the unit in reserve.

Have you read the thread? All your questions are clearly answered multiple times. Nothing you have said is contra to the RAW I am telling people about.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Have you read the thread? All your questions are clearly answered multiple times. Nothing you have said is contra to the RAW I am telling people about.

Yes in fact. But just for posterity, re-quote the part of GOI that instructs us word for word to place the unit into reserve. Hint: it's not there.

Guys, guys. There is no need to bicker, This s easy to figure out.

Gate of Infinity does not work.
You arrive from Deep Strike. Thus you arrive from Reserve. However you are never given permission to place the unit in reserve, so the unit cannot ever come back in. And the unit is lost (and counts as destroyed at the end of the game).


Interestingly enough, an embarked unit at the end of the game would count as destroyed in Purge the Alien.

... Indeed... Very helpful.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
... Indeed... Very helpful.

I try. Oh how I try.

Whilst the rules does not work or does nothing is a valid RAW answer in some cases. It is not true here we are told to arriving immediately from reserve so it does not matter if we are ever placed there.

Really I should point out that the rule never says you arrive immediately from reserve, but what's the point?
You wouldn't listen. The sky is purple even if I proved it was blue.

Fling appears to be trying to generate two rules out of that single sentence - and is saying "deploy..." is then a specifc action unto itself.

It isnt.

Or I'm just reiterating the argument of why the old GoI from the SM codex didn't work with the Farsight warlord trait (that arriving by deep strike and deploying by deep strike are too distinct things as the rules tell us). An argument I'm fairly certain Nos and Rigeld were on the side of GoI not working with Farsights warlord trait...