A few months ago I had my first really negative experience at a 40k event. It was an RTT at the local store. In game 2 I noticed my opponent hadn’t payed full price for wargear and was actually 10 points over. I pointed it out to the opponent and the TO, and the player agreed to drop wargear/alter points to correct it. I lost that game, and this gentleman went on to play a good friend of mine for game 3. He won this as well which gave him the tourney.

After the prizes were announced, I spoke with my friend about his game and discovered that the player had not informed him of the changes in his army. He had intentionally played his 3rd game with a list over by 10 points. He also had misrepresented his codex to both of us when asked directly about rules.

I regret, now, that I had not made a bigger deal about this at the time. I should have been more diligent about making him show rules in the codex. The player had won game 1 with an illegal list, and probably should have been disqualified from prizes. I know now that this was not the first time this gentleman had issues like this. After a detailed discussion with the TO about specifics, the player was banned from the regular event.

This gentleman is not a bad player by any means, just a bit of a cur. He has won several small tournaments and a GT. He was running a cut-throat list and had a very shrewd grasp of the game. This made his indiscretions all the more advantageous.

I would love to hear from 40k tournament veterans and organizers about their experiences with this. The point of any 40k event is for everyone to enjoy themselves. Only a few will walk away with prizes. If the majority of players are having negative experiences, the event won’t be able to keep on going.

-What do you do when you’re paired with a player like this or if this sort of thing is brought to your attention as a TO?
-Does the community as a whole do anything to prevent this from happening at the larger events? (Tar and feathering comes to mind)
-Is this just kinda common and I should expect people like this from time to time?
-Should I stop whining and just WAAC because this is the real game that is being played at top levels?

Please don’t degrade the thread by calling people out or slinging mud. That is not the intention of this post. I would like to hear honest opinions and suggestions on how we can keep the game cut-throat without crossing the line into outright cheating. Thanks.

I saw a similar thing with a player purposely playing vertical fire arcs wrong. He got into a huge fight and the Judge ruled against him and enforced the 45 degree arc which basically is 22degree down and leaves a 'blind spot'. It lost him the game.

Next game he was back to playing it as basically a 180 Degree arc which he used to win further games.

He wasn't top tables but was basically knowingly playing the rule wrong for an advantage and even after corrected, he reverted immediately.

Illegal list should be immediatly reported to a judge regardless if he 'oh, i will remove an item' because that allows someone to overcost his list, claim an honest mistake and drop 10 points of wargear which will have minimal impact this game if actually caught.

Illegal list = DQ.

If you reported it to a judge, a Judge should have come to the table next match and said 'you still have those 10 points removed right?'

Same thing happened to me. A guy brought in a custom bastion for his SoB(Which admittedly was JAW-DROPPINGLY GOOD looking, complete with stain glass and everything). it was taller by a few inches and he used this to focus fire over my ADL with a Vindicare manning a quad gun. Killed my Rune Priest, then Commisar, and broke the back of my blob. He also fired with 8 models out of 2 firing points that the bastion is listed as having.

I didn't realize I had been cheated until after the game when I saw his bastion next to a normal bastion and reread the rules for firing points. I mentioned it to another player but never to the TO.

I would say that in this case he should've had the game counted as a loss(he went on to win the tourney as well). In general knowingly cheating should result in a loss at least, but depending on the degree(such as using loaded dice) he should be DQ'd

I dont fault the TO, he did the right thing ultimately in my situation. I do agree the onus is on the TO to keep these events clean and enjoyable. Im particularly interested in hearing from them.

Acrimonious, getting the facts right and the other side of the story helps a lot before acusing anyone of cheating.

In your example, (about me) it was the first time I played that list/codex in that way (demons as primary). consequently, I was rusty on rules/army mechanics in general-eldar are my main army.

Facts:
-When writing the list that morning really fast I mistakenly listed a spell familiar as 10 points rather than 15 and was 5 points over. In the list writing process I was initially 10 points under because of this mistake and so I added a minor gift to fill the gap between 1490 and 1500.

-The list was written in Microsoft text with no wargear points cost check so this was simply a math error, not an attempt to cheat.

The games:
-My first opponent I played had no problems with me or my list and the wargear in question never came into play. Furthermore, he later became a friend if mine and we have since had a good time chatting about our games and warhammer in general.

-My second game was with you and you pointed out the error in my math. To resolve the matter, I agreed to drop a minor gift, bringing me 5 points under and you were OK with this and we continued our game. If you really were not ok with this, you should have brought a judge over to get his input.

Over the course of our game you had some bad dice and I had some good dice-I also let you do things you forgot to do and you said "thanks man, I can't say I would have done the same for you," which makes me think that you acknowledged I was being a good sport and giving you every chance to win.

In the end, neither the spell familiar nor the minor gift made a difference in my winning and you lost because you kept rolling poorly on your ld and saves from my shooting. I thought it was a good game between us and bystanders would have agreed that we were nothing but amicable throughout the game.

-My third round opponent, your friend, WAS informed that my list was over points and that I dropped the minor gift to rectify the situation. I have witnesses that heard me say this and heard my opponent acknowledge this.

This game was close but ultimately I won because the screamer star just did so much damage-nothing else really played a factor in the game.


-later on that evening, you and your friend were heard taking about me and my list behind my back by various people...if you had an issue you should have talked to me directly about it-I would have been fine not getting prize support if it meant that much to you guys that my math was slightly off...

Generally, directly confronting list/gameplay issues with the player in question and judge as issues arise is the proper way to handle things. Being passive-aggressive about things is never the answer and if you really are NOT ok with something but say you are, who's fault is that?

To conclude, this was a matter of mistake/bad math-not cheating. I was in the store for a long time after the event and this could have easily been cleared up then an there. Regardless, no hard feelings.

in 3rd ed. I had a list 1 point over at a ukgt heat. it was caught during second game. I recieved a loss for game 1 that i completed and the list was adjusted.
it was enough of a hit that i failed to make the cut to the finals. if I would have kept the win in game 1, I would have made it to the finals. I didn't lose game 2 automaticly since the frag grenade was not used when they came to the table and the opponent was ok with just its removal. they gave the player in the second game the option to take the win.

 skkipper wrote:
in 3rd ed. I had a list 1 point over at a ukgt heat. it was caught during second game. I recieved a loss for game 1 that i completed and the list was adjusted.
it was enough of a hit that i failed to make the cut to the finals. if I would have kept the win in game 1, I would have made it to the finals. I didn't lose game 2 automaticly since the frag grenade was not used when they came to the table and the opponent was ok with just its removal. they gave the player in the second game the option to take the win.

This is pretty close to the correct way to handle this. I'm glad to read that.

Yeah, let's not confuse math errors with cheating. Everyone makes math errors, and to be honest, these things aren't always caught by Army Builder either. In fact, Army Builder has a lot of flaws that are being continually corrected in the programming, so it's always a good rule of thumb to re-evaluate your list.

For instance, at Adepticon this year, my friend and I were playing in a game against opponents who had Ogres with Daemons. Each teammate was allowed 1200 pts, we noticed (As both of us also play ogres) that he was running 2 Ironblasters, which was illegal at only 300 pts for Rare. We simply let him know and allowed him to change the list (And had to go to the TO table to sign off on the changes), simple math mistake, and he had only typed the list, so really didn't check it. They went on to crush us of course... man, rolling 6's like a boss.

In another instance, I played a guy who was running 3 HQ units.. (Sisters with Grey Knight allies... all from the old books by the way). He had 2 canonesses and had a Grand Master in the army as well. It was pointed out to him that he could not have 3 HQ units... (Something that may seem fairly obvious to most people... and something that had been told to him BEFORE). Simply lost that Grand Master and played that many points down the rest of the tournament.

I took these situations all very lightly, most people do not however. Remember that while some people do cheat, bad math isn't (ALWAYS) cheating. In my opinion, the second ruling was probably more just, making the player drop the over points and not get anything back for it. You're at a tournament, and you should make sure your lists are iron clad, people are always going to ask questions, especially if they lose.

Isnt it obvious? Stocks with rotten food thrown at cheaters

The bad math wasn't my fault. "Sparky" wrote my list as we bombed down a roads in a Punto. Him and Mike thought I should change my list. Never trust people from Ohio.


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Real cheaters, people who blatantly cheat should receive a loss that round and the guy cheated should get 75% of the max points for the round. Say Max is 20 points the cheated party should get 15.
Anybody with more than one issue should be DQ'd

Whoa, a guy with a Screamer Council cheated?

I am shocked.

@mortetvie:
First of all, there is nothing in this post that would betray you as the person I'm talking about. My stated goal with this thread was to get feedback from players and TO's on how to handle situations like the one I encountered. Accusing me of being passive-aggressive is unnecessary, and obviously aimed and provoking a response. In my original post I list several things that I wished I had done at the time, including being more assertive about the points issue. I informed a judge, he made a decision for you to change your list, and I went along with his ruling. You can't fault me for that.

I stand by my stated purpose and questions at the bottom of my original post. I want to know how TO's handle this sort of thing in general and what strategies players use when they encounter problem players. If you don't think you fall into this category, fine. If you hadn't outed yourself no one would have known I'm talking about you, other than the locals that know my screen name. They already know you've been banned from the local event, so its not news to any of them.

As far as your "witnesses": Yes, I absolutely talked over your list with my friend and calculated it and made sure you were over before pressing the issue with the TO. Why you would bother mentioning this, I'm not sure.

As far as our game together, it was amicable. I recall pointing out to you several times when I noticed you were doing something I didn't think was right, and you responded and corrected. Does this mean absolutely everything was played by the book? I admit to losing handily, partly due to bad dice, and largely due to my unfamiliarity with your codex and list build at the time. The fact that you reminded me to do something when you already had the game in the bag, and I responded with a thank you, doesn't say much more than whats on the surface.

I've obviously hit a nerve here and you felt the need to defend yourself, but I stand by my post as being non threatening and not offensive. I gave it a lot of effort to not be abusive or betray your identity and to stay within the forum guide lines. I absolutely am NOT here to throw "he said/They did" accusations around on the internet, or try to call in "witnesses" to things that can't be verified. If you don't think you fall into the category of player I'm talking about here then maybe you don't have anything to contribute to this thread.

I have a crowbar in my truck called 'Turn 7'. I'll be waiting for the cheaters in the parking lot.... Always waiting.

But yeah let the TO know and let it ride. Normally there is a few warnings thrown around and then banning from events and eventually the store. Though Im always a proponent of Turn 7 knee capping.

As people have pointed out, there is a difference between intentionally deceiving and trying to get away with things and an honest mistake.

Case in point for me-at Feast of Blades this year I played a tau guy who infiltrated his sniper drones and had table wide ethereal ld bubble going...looking at the totality of the circumstances, it was clear he was just confused between the old and new tau codex and was just rusty on his rules. This is not cheating but something easily resolved by going over the rule book/codex.

People make mistakes and generally want to work with you to fix things. Holding it in during an event and then complaining later and even going as far as trying to get a player banned for an honest mistake is childish and sad.

As far as our circumstances go, weather or not I am banned remains to be established on my end as the TO has been leading me to believe otherwise. Regardless, I think several things that happened that day could have been handle better.

Like I said earlier, no hard feelings, though since you made it a point to discuss a specific instance that involved me, I thought it only fair to give the other side of the story .

True. You should come to the next GE tournament and we'll all play it out with dice and laughs. I havnt seen you there in a while.

Though I wouldn't consider the original post complaining; it was posing a question to TO's with no specifics.

Once again, youre throwing insults at the same time you say No Hard Feelings. I didnt hold anything in, it all developed that day as described in my post. My complaints that day were not the first against you, and thus the event organizer made a decision. The right decision, in my opinion, but you obviously disagree.
I Math mistakes are somewhat understandable, and if that had been all it would have ended there. I left tons of details out on purpose, as I'm trying to get feedback on this issue in general not cry sour grapes MONTHS later.
@Mortetvie: you seem to be intent on making this a he said/i said despite my repeated stated purpose of this thread.


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As to whether or not you're allowed back, it's not my event or my decision.

Don't make me roll to see if we go on to 'Turn 7'



Both of you calm down, put on your big boy pants, and let normal constructive arguing take place over what should be done WHEN and IF someone cheats. No one has cheated yet; as the OP only said it might have happened as no details where left. For all we know that cheating event may have never taken place as 40k is a gentleman's sport and it is quite impossible to ever think someone would cheat at it. This is under the assumption the cheating might never take place and only in the future if ever. So pour some brandy, dawn your monocle, rolls some dice, and get on with the nerd life.

Now shall we...

99% of what people think is cheating are just mistakes.

10 points one way or another would not be that big of a deal to me because I should be able to win even with it since it has such a small impact on the game.

Ironically as a side note, I have been accused of cheating against Mortetvie.

 Blackmoor wrote:
99% of what people think is cheating are just mistakes.

10 points one way or another would not be that big of a deal to me because I should be able to win even with it since it has such a small impact on the game.

Ironically as a side note, I have been accused of cheating against Mortetvie.

I agree that to a large extent (90%+) of accusations of cheating are misunderstandings. Calling a ref over and getting a determination right then as there is the way to go IMO.

Also, to clarify your reference to me, I don't recall ever accusing you of cheating-just to clear things up .

I agree that most accusations of cheating could be called misunderstandings of the rules.

@Blackmoor: i know youre a seasoned tournament vet. Is this something you have to deal with regularly at larger events? Its harder to cheat against someone that's confident with the rules, but its also a massive pain to police peoples every move and the facing of their flyers etc. I would appreciate more of your input on the topics of the post if you could.

Someone who plays a rule wrong is a mistake.

Someone who has a judge clarify a rule and teaches them how to play the rule correctly or by the rules of the event then purposely tries to play the rule wrong again when the judge isn't watching is a cheater.

And then there is the dice cheaters and the measurement cheaters.

Note to self bring out loaded dice when playing Alan. We can have a misunderstanding !!!

Plenty of people make mistakes. I've made plenty of mistakes. Cheating, is rare but happens. At a GT last October, (2012) we had a few cases. One was a case of a single large loaded dice, being used for initiative rolls and such... No question the dice was loaded. He denied that he knew, but it was a single dice used only for beginning of game rolls, through a GT and was proven to be loaded.

We had another player caught cheating with rules issues and movement. He had a bad reputation, and had made very important rules mistakes that could have changed the first two games I had played against him, so I was on the lookout when we played at the top table of that same GT. I ended up catching him cheating, after asking a TO to watch him play from behind. Again, this was repeated mis-rules that I frequently called him on. (Lasguns ap 6 when shooting at gants. There is really no excuse there.) I won that game fortunately, and the player was not invited back, plus local stores were notified.

At the latest version of the GT in question, the TO provided a dice brick for every player, at no additional cost. Obviously some people didn't like this, but given the previous problems it felt like an unfortunate necessity and the right call overall.

Basically, when thinking cheating: Be sure. One rules mistake (especially changes in editions) doesn't warrant it. It needs to be clearly intentional, insistent, and repeated, preferrably witnessed by another. I asked the TO judge to take a few minutes to watch while I was on a "bathroom break" and he saw many of the things I did, which justified accusing him of cheating in my mind.

Thanks for sharing Jifel. I have regular opponents at local events that I always breathe a sigh of relief when i see im matched with, just because I know I dont have to police every move or question every rule. Doing this just sucks the fun out of the whole event, thats a large reason I want to hear what people have to say on it and how TO's deal with it.

jathomas2013 wrote:
Same thing happened to me. A guy brought in a custom bastion for his SoB(Which admittedly was JAW-DROPPINGLY GOOD looking, complete with stain glass and everything). it was taller by a few inches and he used this to focus fire over my ADL with a Vindicare manning a quad gun. Killed my Rune Priest, then Commisar, and broke the back of my blob. He also fired with 8 models out of 2 firing points that the bastion is listed as having.

I didn't realize I had been cheated until after the game when I saw his bastion next to a normal bastion and reread the rules for firing points. I mentioned it to another player but never to the TO.

I would say that in this case he should've had the game counted as a loss(he went on to win the tourney as well). In general knowingly cheating should result in a loss at least, but depending on the degree(such as using loaded dice) he should be DQ'd

I believe this particular example is referring to me. I do remember playing against you in a tournament in California I believe. It was shortly after I had created the bastion and sisters army to go with it. I do remember clearing the bastion with every TO prior to competing in any tournament. I believe in the rule book that the bastion's firepoints are listed "as per model". There is a reason why I cleared the model through the TO's prior to the tournament.

The primary reason I felt a need to reply to this thread is I saw that you mentioned it to another tournament goer but not a TO, and not to me. I have been in tournaments before and had mistakes brought to my attention during the tournament. One in particular was a GT in LA, I made a mistake in the first day of the tournament with my opponent and my opponent brought it to my attention the second day before the 4th round started. We checked the rules and I realized that I was wrong and had definitely made a mistake the day prior. I asked to go to the judge and have them correct the mistake by overturning my win from the prior day and making it a loss, my opponent interjected and asked it be made a draw instead. If I do remember correctly Alan Blackmoor was at that tournament.

I had no idea that the bastion had upset you so much, had I known I would much rather you brought it to my attention so that we could have found an amicable solution.

I personally feel this should be the most ideal solution in a tournament scene for when someone thinks another is "cheating". Bring it to their attention. If someone is actually cheating, then they will be far less likely to want to correct the mistake. I am dearly sorry if you feel you were cheated in our game. I hope that one day we may be able to face eachother again on the tabletop, a chance to have a great game where no one feels wronged.

Acrimonious wrote:
the player was banned from the regular event.

This gentleman is not a bad player by any means, just a bit of a cur. He has won several small tournaments and a GT. He was running a cut-throat list and had a very shrewd grasp of the game. This made his indiscretions all the more advantageous.

So was he banned? As a result of a mis-calculation of points as it turns out? and is he definitely a cur, a cad, and plague to gaming tables all over the USA?

Colour me intrigued.

To be clear, the points were one issue of many that this player had that day. I didn't expand on the other indiscretions because the details really don't matter, and that's not the point of the thread. As I said, this was not the first round of complaints against the player.

I almost got into a fist fight with a TFG during a 5th edition tournament. He was running a list with 9 Rhinos, and was moving a couple of them twice in the same turn. It was hard to keep track of with so many rhinos on the board, but I watched him do it.

I called him on it, and he started to get nasty. I told him lets roll it off like gentleman, and he continued to be a betch. I snapped and told him to shut his fackin mouth, and if it continues we can step outside and settle it.

So much manliness in one thread. I might swoon!

But seriously. First talk to your opponent. If that doesn't work talk to the TO. If it's not resolved to your satisfaction don't attend again.

Lastly, remember it's a day to play with little toy soldiers. Prize support/winning shouldn't be the key motivator for going to events of any type for 40k or Fantasy.

On the subject of math errors, I regularly play friendly games of 40k against Mrs. Bull0's Ulthwé Eldar, and a few weeks ago she overcosted her army list by around 300 points. We tend to rush with the lists as we have a kid, so barely have time to play as it is. Naturally she kicked my ass. We had a real laugh about it afterwards when we realised the mistake I can't say if I noticed the other guy was 10pts over I'd give a monkey's, but like I said, I mostly play friendly games.

TOs cannot possibly deal with most situations. If you move 14" or turn a flyer 110degrees and the TO comes over and you say "i moved 12" what is a TO going to do in that situation? Largely tournament games need to be self policed due to logistics. I'd like to know more about strategies people use with opponents that take advantage of this.

Talking with friends and others that play the hobby, most people are scared of confrontation. They see something that shouldn't happen and let it go because, "its not that big of a deal." Two things happen becuse of this. One, the person will continue to cheat and get more bolder as the game goes on. They might start by moving an extra inch or claiming cover from something that will get none. Ending the game with shady dice rolls and extra movement when you aren't looking. Trust me, it happens and has happened to me in my early playing days. The second thing that can happen is that the person made an honest mistake and everything seems to be fine for the rest of the game, and the mistake was just that, a mistake.

For me, I watch my opponent like a hawk in the first couple of rounds. See how they roll, how they move, and ask questions on things they are doing so they can verbalize everything. If everything seems legit, I back off and relax and let the game flow. If things appear fishy with dice or movement, I MIGHT let it slide the first time to see if it happens again. If it does, I will call the person on it immediately and explain to them that what they are doing is wrong.

I think most of it has to deal with confidence in yourself and rules. I know my rules, my codex, and have a pretty general knowledge of other books. So if someone is tryign to pull osmething fishy or it doesn't sound right, I ALWAYS ask, ALWAYS. Maybe ask to glance at their armybook for a second just to verify, but not making it a huge deal. I would always ask and make surey ou are comfortable with what is happening, because if not, the tension in the room becomes very real and uncomfortable for everyone. Plus, get in the BRB and as many codices as possible and learn the rules.

Acrimonious wrote:
TOs cannot possibly deal with most situations. If you move 14" or turn a flyer 110degrees and the TO comes over and you say "i moved 12" what is a TO going to do in that situation? Largely tournament games need to be self policed due to logistics. I'd like to know more about strategies people use with opponents that take advantage of this.

Sadly, no matter who you are, there will always be another player that does not enjoy playing against you or has something against you-one man's "cur" is another's best friend.. Therefore, you should always try to work things out from the get-go and if something comes up in a game, or you suspect something, the following steps are probably a good way to deal with things (basically concepts taken from previous posts):

Rules issues:

(1) Try to work it out with the player. Ask the player to show you the rule so you can see it for yourself-if it does not say what the player said it did (or represented) point out the difference and that should end most of any rules issues.

(2) If there is still a disagreement, get a judge to make a ruling and that should be final. Most tournaments have a clause where judge rulings are final and arguing with judge has consequences.


Gameplay issues:

(1) Keep an eye out for any gameplay issues. If someone is moving too much, not measuring distances appropriately, tell them politely that "it looks like to you that they did x," do you mind being more careful in doing "x?" This way the other player is notified that they should be more cautious in the "problem" area and hopefully they are just being sloppy and stop doing whatever the problem is.

(2) Come up with an amicable and creative solution. Specifically, if they are moving too far, I usually place a finger or die where the unit/model started and another one where it can go and at that point it is pretty obvious if they are moving too far or not. If it is something more serious or consistent, then having a judge spoken to and come and watch your game might be the best alternative. Every TO should be available to check up on these types of issues and police them if they are big/serious enough.

Abuse/candor:
This is a sticky and uncomfortable area but needs to be handled with care and maturity for a good and equitable result for all involved.

(1) Try to be as accommodating and thick skinned as possible. There are so many types of players, people and personalities and sometimes not everyone "jives well." Just because they have a different personality or playstyle doesn't mean they are the devil. A lot of times, simple good will can go a long way as I have actually been in an event where a player was getting a rule wrong, judge said he was getting it wrong and the player still had the audacity to cuss up a storm about the matter. Despite all of this I simply was nice to the guy and after talking a bit he apologized and said he was having a bad day/dealing with personal things and we resolved the rules issue and moved on and had a good time-who knows what is going on in a person's life? So in essence, go in with a good attitude and positive thinking-it's just a game.

(2) If a player is genuinely being abusive, rude or acting in an inappropriate manor, then talk to a TO/ref about it. Explain clearly and support with facts what the player has done/is doing that is in appropriate in your eyes and ask/have the TO or ref talk to the player to try to get things resolved. This should be a safe and anonymous way to get through to the player.

(3) If a player does not respond to TO feedback then some other players should try to talk to the player to bring up some legitimate concerns and get a dialogue going. Some players will be responsive/receptive, some will not but it is worth a shot.

If a player doesn't try to work something out with another player and if a TO doesn't ever talk with another player or try to work something out, then there is a breakdown in communication and that is the problem then. Ultimately, going into a game with a bad attitude towards someone just makes for a painful game for both players so as MikeFox has said in so many words, "can't we all just get along?"

outright cheating I clamp down on HARD. I find it disgusting.

Little errors I let go once or twice then go off on one about.

I agree with Blackmoor (which surprises me) that most instances of "cheating" are probably just honest mistakes.

If I was running a tournament I would use staff with the old metal dreadnoughts in stocking patrolling the area

Acrimonious wrote:
What do you do when you’re paired with a player like this or if this sort of thing is brought to your attention as a TO?

Spray them with Pepper Spray

Acrimonious wrote:

-Does the community as a whole do anything to prevent this from happening at the larger events? (Tar and feathering comes to mind)

Before the match, show them the can of pepper spray.

Acrimonious wrote:

-Is this just kinda common and I should expect people like this from time to time?

Not after being shown the can of pepper spray, no. Not common at all.

 kronk wrote:

Acrimonious wrote:
What do you do when you’re paired with a player like this or if this sort of thing is brought to your attention as a TO?

Spray them with Pepper Spray

Acrimonious wrote:

-Does the community as a whole do anything to prevent this from happening at the larger events? (Tar and feathering comes to mind)

Before the match, show them the can of pepper spray.

Acrimonious wrote:

-Is this just kinda common and I should expect people like this from time to time?

Not after being shown the can of pepper spray, no. Not common at all.

Best response yet.

To be clear, this post is not in reference to random pick up games, it is regarding tournament play only.

When it comes to things that are obvious and undeniable, like a list being over in points or violating a FOC restriction, I think the solution is clear: the game is a loss. To me its a black and white issue. Regardless of whether the list is 1pt or 100pts over the legal limit, the bottom line is that its over the limit for the event. I know many people will think this is unnecessarily harsh but without such a restriction we end up in a conversation about what amount of arbitrarily determined points over the limit is acceptable. Some may think 5 pts or less is immaterial to the outcome of a game, while others may say 11pts over is irrelevant. The reality is that both groups can be right or wrong depending on the circumstances of the games and army lists. Did my 5pts of melta bombs blow up your landraider? Or did it do nothing because your sternguard blasted my sergeant off the board before he could use them? The solution is simple, a list is legal based on the points limit or it isn’t.

 mortetvie wrote:

my math was slightly off...

This seems like an attempt to diminish a mistake that is not a matter of degree in my opinion. For example, you can’t be “slightly” pregnant. A list is legal or it isn’t.

When I take a list to a tournament I’ve added it up by hand, with a calculator, and then I put it into a spreadsheet to print copies for my opponents and the TO. If a mistake somehow slipped through after all that its MY fault and the appropriate thing to do is forfeit. There is a social dynamic in this game that can’t be ignored, most players are nice people that just want to have a good time and play some games. They don’t want to have to press an issue like this. I can’t speak for TOs (since I have never been one), but I would guess that they have a similar reaction in these scenarios. They want to minimize drama and keep the event moving along.

Any thoughts?

I second Bwartok. Sure, somebody can make a math mistake, but this is tourney play. Over the limit should be a forfeit, no question. Otherwise, there's too much elbow room for shenanigans. Print outs of lists from apps like battle scribe are helpful. Double check your numbers before you go to a tourney. If you're throwing together a list for an army you're unfamiliar with the day before, it couldn't hurt to check it twice. I played Acrimonious with a list 2 pts over once and felt bad about it - and that was a friendly match (he let me run it anyway). The limit is a hard limit, it's not malleable. Beyond the extra item or model you may get at 10 pts over, don't forget what you DID NOT have to sacrifice to fit that item or model into a legal list.

Wow, I really didn't think people used loaded dice in war games... guess I've been in denial. I suck playing as is let alone against loaded dice.

I was at the first large GW Tournament in Nashville TN, the over all winner, best painted and all, declared to everyone after he was given the trophy that he had never played before, had learned the game on the drive up, and that it wasn't his army nor had he painted it... then he dropped the trophy which broke on impact... Shocking conduct really... That is as close as it gets to me having seen or caught a cheater.

Ok, if someone is found to be doing something wrong then we owe it to everyone playing to talk to them about it, and draw in a tournament official to observe. If the conduct continues then DQ'd. Their army lists should be checked again under scrutiny. That is my opinion.

That doesn't make sense. How could he have won if he didn't know the rules?

Acrimonious wrote:
I would love to hear from 40k tournament veterans and organizers about their experiences with this.

Oh, the ways I can respond to so much in this thread.


1. First - it (this thread) is worse (or more effective?) than Queer Nation for getting people Outted.

2. Second - Acrimonious, I don't think you know this, but maybe it was the April or March RTT, but a well known TFG/cheater/douche had managed to get to Top Table with BloodRaven Ish. OverWatch, myself and another gave B.R.Ish a heads up on what to watch for. Our TO knew, too, and kept a closer eye on proceedings than normal. All went well. The TFG did *not* get the top of the day. I can't remember if Ish pulled a Draw or a Win, but it was not a Loss for him.

Lesson here? Locals, if they have the balls, might just step up and keep a self-policing eye on things. Like a ... citizens' patrol.

So, possibly
3. third - I will now be far more gutsy to ask for Codex/rules clarification or TO wariness on a suspected cheater. This is due to your thread. I dunno if I come across as a timid fellow, but, darn it, thanks to you I'm gonna try to *really* make sure folks are kept honest!
...
okay, that's total crap/baloney/malarkey. For those that know me, I got more chutzpah than my body weight allows for and I'll squeal on an opponent.

Aftermath. wrote:
That doesn't make sense. How could he have won if he didn't know the rules?

Not sure what didn't make sense, I stated that he had learned the rules in the car while riding to the tourney.

Bwartok wrote:
To be clear, this post is not in reference to random pick up games, it is regarding tournament play only.

When it comes to things that are obvious and undeniable, like a list being over in points or violating a FOC restriction, I think the solution is clear: the game is a loss. To me its a black and white issue. Regardless of whether the list is 1pt or 100pts over the legal limit, the bottom line is that its over the limit for the event. I know many people will think this is unnecessarily harsh but without such a restriction we end up in a conversation about what amount of arbitrarily determined points over the limit is acceptable. Some may think 5 pts or less is immaterial to the outcome of a game, while others may say 11pts over is irrelevant. The reality is that both groups can be right or wrong depending on the circumstances of the games and army lists. Did my 5pts of melta bombs blow up your landraider? Or did it do nothing because your sternguard blasted my sergeant off the board before he could use them? The solution is simple, a list is legal based on the points limit or it isn’t.

 mortetvie wrote:

my math was slightly off...

This seems like an attempt to diminish a mistake that is not a matter of degree in my opinion. For example, you can’t be “slightly” pregnant. A list is legal or it isn’t.

When I take a list to a tournament I’ve added it up by hand, with a calculator, and then I put it into a spreadsheet to print copies for my opponents and the TO. If a mistake somehow slipped through after all that its MY fault and the appropriate thing to do is forfeit. There is a social dynamic in this game that can’t be ignored, most players are nice people that just want to have a good time and play some games. They don’t want to have to press an issue like this. I can’t speak for TOs (since I have never been one), but I would guess that they have a similar reaction in these scenarios. They want to minimize drama and keep the event moving along.

Any thoughts?

There are certainly different degrees.

Degree 1.) I bought a piece of wargear that I screwed up points or did not add...maybe a melta bomb...I might never use this and it may not have any effect on the outcome.
Degree 2.) Mispayed for a unit and slightly over...more impact and harder to adjust for.
Degree 3.) Way over on points (I had a player submit a list one time that was 300+ points over)

This is way I always ask for pre submission for lists so they can be checked for points.

But sometimes even those "pre-submitted" lists get pushed through. Right after the new Daemons codex, I allied in a CSM detachment with a Slaaneshi lord and 2 units of 10 noise marines. My fourth game I found out my list was illegal and I didn't realize it, and nobody caught it until AFTER I played 4 of the 5 rounds. I got my win loss flipped, so I went from 3 wins and one loss to 1 win and 3 losses. Granted, it was a new codex, but still, sometimes mistakes happen.

**For those who don't know, marked lords only make troops in a primary detachment.

as Bwartok said, you cant be barely pregnant. There are degrees to how far over you go but really a list is legal or it isnt. If you make a mistake and it's too late to correct it, the right thing to do is to forfeit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Great point "dude i suck" goes back to the idea that these events are largely self policed by neccessity. All the more reason to have this discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would be massive effort for one judge running a 16 member tournament to check all lists while also running the show.

Acrimonious wrote:
as Bwartok said, you cant be barely pregnant. There are degrees to how far over you go but really a list is legal or it isnt. If you make a mistake and it's too late to correct it, the right thing to do is to forfeit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Great point "dude i suck" goes back to the idea that these events are largely self policed by neccessity. All the more reason to have this discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would be massive effort for one judge running a 16 member tournament to check all lists while also running the show.

Actually as a person who regularly ran 50+ person tournaments with no help, I can say that as long as you enforce early list submissions checking lists is not hard to do.

Breng77 wrote:
Degree 1.) I bought a piece of wargear that I screwed up points or did not add...maybe a melta bomb...I might never use this and it may not have any effect on the outcome.

But you can't just look at the cheapest item and say that was the only effect. Maybe the fact that you didn't pay for that melta bomb allowed you to take a Razorback instead of a Rhino, or freed up the last few points to let you fit in that named HQ character instead of a generic one, and that probably makes a much bigger difference.

IMO the solution is an automatic game loss for every game you've played or started with the illegal list, and then you remove your most expensive unit from your list for the rest of the tournament. Harsh? Sure, but it ensures that you're not getting any benefit from the illegal list.

 Peregrine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Degree 1.) I bought a piece of wargear that I screwed up points or did not add...maybe a melta bomb...I might never use this and it may not have any effect on the outcome.

But you can't just look at the cheapest item and say that was the only effect. Maybe the fact that you didn't pay for that melta bomb allowed you to take a Razorback instead of a Rhino, or freed up the last few points to let you fit in that named HQ character instead of a generic one, and that probably makes a much bigger difference.

IMO the solution is an automatic game loss for every game you've played or started with the illegal list, and then you remove your most expensive unit from your list for the rest of the tournament. Harsh? Sure, but it ensures that you're not getting any benefit from the illegal list.

I think this is the most easily enforced and implemented solution suggested so far for lists discovered to be over on points. Unfortunately, pairings will have already happened for subsequent rounds.

And I see evidence as to why most of you don't run events super harsh punishments for mistakes will cost you players...ore submitted lists if they are actually checked (and I mean submitted before the event, for RTts I generally ask for 2 days from my GT it is 1 week, make it fairly easy to catch issues if you check things thoroughly.

As for removing your most expensive unit....that is one of the dumbest thing I have ever heard....so say my most expensive unit I'm my wolf guard space wolf army is Logam....I remove him and now I have an illegal list because I bought 1 too many combi weapons....really that works out great...now I forfeit again because I need to cheat even to play....

If there is a point mistake it is easy to correct that mistake and not do more, lose that piece of war gear etc....

But like I said preventative action is best.

 kronk wrote:

Acrimonious wrote:
What do you do when you’re paired with a player like this or if this sort of thing is brought to your attention as a TO?

Spray them with Pepper Spray

Acrimonious wrote:

-Does the community as a whole do anything to prevent this from happening at the larger events? (Tar and feathering comes to mind)

Before the match, show them the can of pepper spray.

Acrimonious wrote:

-Is this just kinda common and I should expect people like this from time to time?

Not after being shown the can of pepper spray, no. Not common at all.

How are you supposed to get pepper spray from? [becuase I want some]

Breng77 wrote:
And I see evidence as to why most of you don't run events super harsh punishments for mistakes will cost you players...

The alternative is to offer an incentive to cheat, since even if you get caught you're not going to suffer any penalty beyond having to stop cheating.

And sure, harsh punishments cost you players. But you know what else costs you players? Having no confidence in the legitimacy of the event because cheating is never punished. Why would someone want to attend an event where they have to be paranoid and verify every detail of their opponent's list because they know the TO isn't going to help them?

As for removing your most expensive unit....that is one of the dumbest thing I have ever heard....so say my most expensive unit I'm my wolf guard space wolf army is Logam....I remove him and now I have an illegal list because I bought 1 too many combi weapons....really that works out great...now I forfeit again because I need to cheat even to play....

Alternatively, you were only able to bring Logan at all because you had those extra points from not paying for a combi weapon available.

Though I suppose you make a case for modifying the rule to remove the most expensive unit that can be removed without creating an illegal list (or, if you somehow have only the minimum to have a legal army remove the most expensive unit and replace it with the cheapest possible unit that would make a legal army).

If there is a point mistake it is easy to correct that mistake and not do more, lose that piece of war gear etc....

How exactly can you tell me which specific item of war gear resulted in you going over points? Why is it the 5-point melta bomb on a random sergeant instead of the 5-point flamer or upgrading a 5-point flamer to a 10-point melta gun? If you try to identify a specific item then the price of getting caught with an illegal list is always going to be losing the least valuable upgrade, and that's not really even a price at all.

I've heard of a player over here who had been using dodgy dice and this was found in the aftermath of one tournament. It happened again in another event and the TOs watched him.

He has since, apparently been ostracised by the gaming community and no TO will accept his entry to their events. If it drives him from the hobby, then it's a small price to pay - as he was apparently "not fun" to play against (even from other 'cheesehead' players). If he mends his ways, he might be welcomed back, but that trust will have to be earned back.

Honestly, I tried not to think about the cheating while I was at the event, actually the event helped me forget. Eventually I did divorce her though...

I was in a tournament final for 40k a few years ago, this was my first major tournament and the first time I'd really excelled.

The game was based on VP and I had the Nightbringer tied up with my opponents DA Character (the name escapes me), a few terminators and scouts, I hit and took a wound off his commander, which with the Nightbringer caused ID, he proceeded to tell me that his commander couldn't be ID'd due to a wargear attached to him.

I was fine by this, tournament final, a character I've never came across, seems legit... I eventually whittled down the character and a few other models in the melee but lost by one VP. At the end of the game the TO came over and asked how it went, I told him it was really close, but the non-ID on the character was just too much for me with his four wounds.

The TO pulled out the codex, looked up the character and noted that it didn't have this piece of wargear, worked the result and gave me the tournament, infront of everyone disqualifying the guy (which he said he wouldnt've done if the guy still would've won if it didn't make a difference; fair).

I think more than anything, the social shame of being called out as a cheater infront of all the local guys is the best thing a TO can do to a guy.

 Peregrine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
And I see evidence as to why most of you don't run events super harsh punishments for mistakes will cost you players...

The alternative is to offer an incentive to cheat, since even if you get caught you're not going to suffer any penalty beyond having to stop cheating.

And sure, harsh punishments cost you players. But you know what else costs you players? Having no confidence in the legitimacy of the event because cheating is never punished. Why would someone want to attend an event where they have to be paranoid and verify every detail of their opponent's list because they know the TO isn't going to help them?

As for removing your most expensive unit....that is one of the dumbest thing I have ever heard....so say my most expensive unit I'm my wolf guard space wolf army is Logam....I remove him and now I have an illegal list because I bought 1 too many combi weapons....really that works out great...now I forfeit again because I need to cheat even to play....

Alternatively, you were only able to bring Logan at all because you had those extra points from not paying for a combi weapon available.

Though I suppose you make a case for modifying the rule to remove the most expensive unit that can be removed without creating an illegal list (or, if you somehow have only the minimum to have a legal army remove the most expensive unit and replace it with the cheapest possible unit that would make a legal army).

If there is a point mistake it is easy to correct that mistake and not do more, lose that piece of war gear etc....

How exactly can you tell me which specific item of war gear resulted in you going over points? Why is it the 5-point melta bomb on a random sergeant instead of the 5-point flamer or upgrading a 5-point flamer to a 10-point melta gun? If you try to identify a specific item then the price of getting caught with an illegal list is always going to be losing the least valuable upgrade, and that's not really even a price at all.

It is actually rather easy...primarily because they have points costs wrong on an item and that causes the overage. Again if you check ahead of time no need to have harsh penalties and no fear of cheating....You solution is over complicated an unnecessary...it is simple enough to pre-check lists. IF you want to say absent that player are force into losing earlier games (which I still think generally speaking is overkill for something like being a point or 2 over) then that is fine, but then I would allow the offending player to drop whatever is necessary to have the list under on points quickly.. This drop most expensive unit (while forcing them then to play hugely down on points when they usually were only over by say 1-5 points in most cases), while maintaining a legal list and if need be replace it with the cheapest unit (cause everyone has the models to do this obviously especially on hand at a tournament. Honestly if I made a list mistake and this was enforced I would leave the event, and never attend again. THe DQ from earlier games fine I screwed up I can see derserving it. Being forced to play the rest of the event with a severely under points list why bother. So say I am running my Daemon list at 2k points at an 8 game event

Fateweaver
2 TZ heralds
Khorne Herald
Slaanesh Herald

8 Screamers
19 Dogs
18 Seekers

10 Letters
10 Daemonettes
10 Horrors

Soul Grinder

and some how i find out I added an extra gift and I am over by a point (i.m really not but lets just say I am). I find out game 1. Instead of Dropping the gift or a model off a unit to be back under points I am now dropping Fateweaver and running my list at 1701 points....for the next 7 games....yeah that is not going to happen I'm going to leave the event because I am so severely screwed and you obviously can tell that the most expensive unit is not the offending party (people usually add expensive things to the list early), most times things that put people over are last minute wargear additions or changes to squad size...or miscosting units. Say in my case I thought Blood letters were 9 points a model and that I ended up at 1981 points so I added a lesser gift to go up to 1991. But really they are 10 points....now I am a point over....that is what happens. Better to DQ me and let me fix my list and get it approved...if I cannot or will not I am DQed for the rest of my games (I can play or not). But docking me hundereds of points and DQ losing games is ridiculous.

All I can think about reading some posts in this thread is when Edward Norton and Matt Damon get the gak kicked out them after cheating in a poker game in "Rounders".

Aftermath. wrote:
I almost got into a fist fight with a TFG during a 5th edition tournament. He was running a list with 9 Rhinos, and was moving a couple of them twice in the same turn. It was hard to keep track of with so many rhinos on the board, but I watched him do it.

I called him on it, and he started to get nasty. I told him lets roll it off like gentleman, and he continued to be a betch. I snapped and told him to shut his fackin mouth, and if it continues we can step outside and settle it.

What a tough guy! Hey guys, look at this tough guy over here! I bet he also has a smokin hot girlfriend. So lucky!

Also, the the OP who called out the other guy who is arguing with him in this thread both sound terrible.

I've had a similar situation happen to me once. Played against a CSM list, the guy gave some dudes plasma pistols that took his point value 10 over.

I didn't catch this, the TO did on review of the lists (TO's at our store always go over the lists). I ended up winning by a hair, but the TO gave me full points for that game in the end. The guys list was adjusted, and he was allowed to continue on for the rest of the tourney.

I feel that was a right call to make. 10 points doesn't seem like a big deal, but we have limits for a reason. A rule was broken, a punishment was levied.

While I don't run many tournaments, I've found that if someone is over on the allowed points letting each opponent choose what to remove is a fair compromise. 10pts over? Your opponents get to look at your list and remove a 10pt upgrade that doesn't affect WYSIWIG. If you don't have any upgrades at that value, they can remove the next higher point value one or (if there are none of those) a complete model of the same points value. A single illegal meltabomb on a character for 5pts can swing the results of a 2000pt game with a good dice roll and I firmly believe that people who don't bother to check their own math should neither benefit nor have no adverse affect from that . Hell, I'd even be fine with penalizing a player who was over by making them that many points *UNDER* for the rest of the tourny.

OP, there is definitely a bit of a problem with your first post. You call the opponent a cur and say there were issues with him and sling insults at him (cur is an insult, don't deny it). The poster who you are discussing defends himself in a polite manner, and calls some of your actions childish yes, but you slung the first insults and got upset that he called your actions childish. He has also been polite on here and you have been quite harsh towards him since the beginning. I hope the TO doesn't ban him from future tournaments, as it sounds like you just took a disliking to him and had an excuse (10 points) to nail him over. And yes, I used to run tournaments at my old game store. I have quick list checks at the beginning and if a point cost was missed at the beginning and won a round, it was discussed between players and something appropriate was removed and the tournament went on. The store owner was also included in the decision, as he was the one making money from the tourney. Never had any complaints. The fact that they were small, local tournies helped. I even played as well, if there was an odd number. If I wasn't running it, I played regardless.

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:

Aftermath. wrote:
I almost got into a fist fight with a TFG during a 5th edition tournament. He was running a list with 9 Rhinos, and was moving a couple of them twice in the same turn. It was hard to keep track of with so many rhinos on the board, but I watched him do it.

I called him on it, and he started to get nasty. I told him lets roll it off like gentleman, and he continued to be a betch. I snapped and told him to shut his fackin mouth, and if it continues we can step outside and settle it.

What a tough guy! Hey guys, look at this tough guy over here! I bet he also has a smokin hot girlfriend. So lucky!

Oh yes. And his opponent was no doubt smelly and autistic, hence his rage. Aftermath hates autistic people.

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:

Aftermath. wrote:
I almost got into a fist fight with a TFG during a 5th edition tournament. He was running a list with 9 Rhinos, and was moving a couple of them twice in the same turn. It was hard to keep track of with so many rhinos on the board, but I watched him do it.

I called him on it, and he started to get nasty. I told him lets roll it off like gentleman, and he continued to be a betch. I snapped and told him to shut his fackin mouth, and if it continues we can step outside and settle it.

What a tough guy! Hey guys, look at this tough guy over here! I bet he also has a smokin hot girlfriend. So lucky!

Also, the the OP who called out the other guy who is arguing with him in this thread both sound terrible.

I know them both, played them both. Your assumption is incorrect. To be fair the guy he "called out", which he didn't, outed himself as the subject of the OP.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
OP, there is definitely a bit of a problem with your first post. You call the opponent a cur and say there were issues with him and sling insults at him (cur is an insult, don't deny it). The poster who you are discussing defends himself in a polite manner, and calls some of your actions childish yes, but you slung the first insults and got upset that he called your actions childish. He has also been polite on here and you have been quite harsh towards him since the beginning. I hope the TO doesn't ban him from future tournaments, as it sounds like you just took a disliking to him and had an excuse (10 points) to nail him over. And yes, I used to run tournaments at my old game store. I have quick list checks at the beginning and if a point cost was missed at the beginning and won a round, it was discussed between players and something appropriate was removed and the tournament went on. The store owner was also included in the decision, as he was the one making money from the tourney. Never had any complaints. The fact that they were small, local tournies helped. I even played as well, if there was an odd number. If I wasn't running it, I played regardless.

Nothing childish about Acrimonious, he's a real gentleman of a player. I think it's clear here that he got burned during the game in other ways which he has not discussed here, but as the OP is not specifically about one particular game, but how to handle cheating in a broader sense at tourneys, he spared the ugly details to discuss something greater. If you play Acrimonious in a game you quickly realize he strives for fair, fun games - it probably bothered him a bit, as it would anyone, to be taken advantage of in tourney play.

 Thokt wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
OP, there is definitely a bit of a problem with your first post. You call the opponent a cur and say there were issues with him and sling insults at him (cur is an insult, don't deny it). The poster who you are discussing defends himself in a polite manner, and calls some of your actions childish yes, but you slung the first insults and got upset that he called your actions childish. He has also been polite on here and you have been quite harsh towards him since the beginning. I hope the TO doesn't ban him from future tournaments, as it sounds like you just took a disliking to him and had an excuse (10 points) to nail him over. And yes, I used to run tournaments at my old game store. I have quick list checks at the beginning and if a point cost was missed at the beginning and won a round, it was discussed between players and something appropriate was removed and the tournament went on. The store owner was also included in the decision, as he was the one making money from the tourney. Never had any complaints. The fact that they were small, local tournies helped. I even played as well, if there was an odd number. If I wasn't running it, I played regardless.

Nothing childish about Acrimonious, he's a real gentleman of a player. I think it's clear here that he got burned during the game in other ways which he has not discussed here, but as the OP is not specifically about one particular game, but how to handle cheating in a broader sense at tourneys, he spared the ugly details to discuss something greater. If you play Acrimonious in a game you quickly realize he strives for fair, fun games - it probably bothered him a bit, as it would anyone, to be taken advantage of in tourney play.

Both of these posts bring up good points and I generally agree with what timetowaste said and I think Thokt highlights one reason why I posted here in the first place:

I agree that the op did not specifically mention or call anyone out specifically-not in a manner the general community would recognize. However, the facts were specific enough for anyone vaguely familiar with the matter/store to know what was up so in an indirect way, he was "calling me out." Many people only heard his side of the story/facts and not mine and have jumped to conclusions/presumed things. I have chosen personally to not get involved or make a big deal about the matter until I saw the OP post something about it publicly, as he did here.

If the OP was truly interested in the acedamic pursuit of the cheating topic, he should not have said anything like "cur of a person cheated and this is what he did." In fact, the majority of his post was framed around sore feelings about his game with me.

Regarding my game with him, the list being over was a mistake not done intentionally to gain an advantage, as I explained in detail. We came to an agreement regarding the issue and moved on, as was appropriate. if the TO and any opponent felt strongly that I should not have won or gotten prizes, they should have said and gotten the TO involved right away- I would have been happy to oblige by any ruling.

Furthermore, I gather much of his allegations further mentioned or "withheld" are either misunderstandings or just false. If there were any units/rules misplayed as well, that was also due to an unfamiliarity with the demon codex or relevant rules as I was mainly going off of my brief reading of the book and how I saw other people play it against me-these issues should also have been brought up during the game and to the TO right away. In the end, the OP did none of this but after all was said and done chose to make a big deal about it.

There were times I lost a game due to a misplayed unit/rule on my opponents side but if I don't catch it during the game, no biggie, I just learn for the future-I don't assume they were a cheater or anything!

People get rules wrong, that doesn't make them cheaters... And besides, if I got any wrong, I apologize but it wasn't on purpose. That's the difference between cheating-purposefully misplaying things you know are wrong versus accidentally misplaying things.

As was mentioned before, if you see someone doing something wrong, bring it to their attention/call a judge. If you don't, it's your own fault and don't jump to the conclusion they were cheating!

I'm just gonna come out and say this, but Mort you've been pointed out to me by several different people at several different times as being TFG. to avoid playing with you, and if i have to play you I.E. in a tourney, to watch you very closely as you tend to ... push the boundaries of acceptable rules bending. and to head off all the people at the pass that are gonna nerd rage about acceptable rule bending, or say that they are titans of chivalry and have never stooped to such antics... stop it. we all know what i mean, tons of people move 6.8" or pivot a flyer 103 degrees etc etc etc. that being said Mort, clearly you are not scoring well at sportsmanship either in tourneys or out. and I'm speaking in a broad sense here but where there's smoke there is fire imo. If 1 person has a close game and takes the loss poorly and talks sh*t, that's life. but if enough people are saying there's a bad smell, usually its cause something is rotten. It's easy to say oh i made a mistake, we've all made them, i am not denying that its possible, but a seasoned tourney player who knows the rules inside and out, not triple checking a list for points errors ... i call shenanigans. and if somehow it does happen? that player should take a loss for every game played with the illegal list. no ifs and's or butts. And before anyone goes falling on their swords or having kittens about me speaking my mind, this is just my opinion, take it as such.

How do you handle cheating at 40k events?

I try not to get caught.

I don't play tournament games for just this reason. I really like playing 40k but i don't want to play games where winning is so important i have to worry about my opponents honestly. I think the TO should have been more on top of this guy for going over his points. When it comes to a tournament all the players should have their lists and rules knowledge at high levels. I would expect an opponent to have triple checked his list before showing up.

When I arrive at an event, I bring a level of respect to my fellow gamers that shows that I acknowledge the time and effort they have put into their models, lists, and understanding of the game and their codex. Not to mention the 8 weekend hours they are spending there and the entry fee. This includes the following, which seem painfully obvious to me:

-don't make your opponent police your play. This is an easy way to suck all the enjoyment out of a game. No one wants to have to watch their opponent like a hawk, it's not fair or fun if you're taking indiscretions and making them stop you. I've come across a few players that appear to think this is an aspect of the game. Conversely, my favorite opponents are the guys I know I dont have to hover over. It sucks that there are people in this thread saying this is why they don't go to tournaments. Most people going won't win, yet still show up for the fun and games.

-Know your codex. The day of an event is not the time to experiment with a new list you're unfamiliar with. That's what garage games and pickup games are for. When you are reading and playtesting, pay special attention to restrictions on your abilities that an opponent inexperienced with your codex wouldn't know. i.e. Fateweaver’s psychic ability restrictions, or a Tau Ethereal always giving an additional VP, or not being able to assault from a portal glyph. These are the easiest ones to fudge, and when I find out after the fact that I've been bamboozled on them it particularly piques my ire.

-even if the event doesn't have a paint requirement, all of my models at a MINIMUM are fully built and on bases. All wargear is WYSIWYG. All conversions are explained, as well as being unique and done for aesthetics not proxies. Having Pink horrors count as cultists and squats count for Pink horrors and empty bases counting for models is absolutely acceptable in friendly games and test games, but when you show up to an event with an army like this is a big F U to people spending their time and money to make sure their stuff is tight.

-be sure you understand the rules of the event and that your list is legal within the parameters. We all have to be playing the same game here with the same rules. If you show up with Forge World at a non-FW event should your opponents be understanding and just let you play anyhow? Same principle goes for points and FOC restrictions. If your list is outside the points or FOC restrictions, it shows you don't respect people's time enough to put forth even a minimal effort. This goes back to playtesting as well. Have someone else look over your list ahead of time and give you feedback as well as check your work. I personally learn things this way from friends and fellow players.
No individual indiscretions should ever result in an outright ban/86/blacklist from an event. If I heard a player was asked not to come back I would assume the person exhibited a pattern of misbehavior over a longer period of time. Especially in an established event with experienced TOs.

Everyone has some group of people that may or may not like them- I think the saying "haters gonna hate" is appropriate.

Believe it or not, I score well on sports in many events and venues "in and out of games" as you put it and there are plenty of people I play that enjoy their games with me and look forward to playing me (even at that store).

That being the case, it seems more like an issue of game parlor politics than anything else. People are entitled to think what they will and that's ok, but to assume someone was cheating on purpose without proof but hearsay is not cool.

Also, to point out the facts again, my list was only 5 points over and only because I misread a 15 point item as a 10 point one. Mistakes happen, nobody is perfect. Again, I would have been happy to abide by any ruling the TO would have given or player suggested-I'm not trying to dodge responsibility for my list being over points but it happened. The fact that a mutually agreeable sollution was reached and we moved on should have ended the matter but only after I won the event did the OP choose to make a big deal about it.

Mort: you made this thread about you, congrats on the hijack, so complaining about hearsay makes no sense.

Acrimonious wrote:
All wargear is WYSIWYG.

Honestly the only wargear people want or need WYSIWYG is the primary weapons of a model - the little upgrades are often pointless to model for several reasons:

1) There is no part on the sprue to denote them officially

2) They are tiny, most players will not notice grenades or scopes on their opponents models nor see them as anything more than decoration or part of the model itself

3) Because of the points structure most people are not going to own one single setup of models for each possible wargear setup in the codex; keeping in mind that new things come and old things go as well.

So most of the time its just the weapons that you need to keep clearly identified. Writing a good clear army list is also very important and for any formal match or tourney you should have an army list (heck most proper tourneys require you to have them). If you've time an extra one for your opponent to have during the match also helps.
Heck in the fantasy games there are often no wargear options in the sprue, even for command units, so most of the models are only showing their main weapon as the WYSIWYG.

So in the end wargear is nice to have fully represented, but it shouldn't be enforced anywhere as its just impractical in the real world where we have time and budget constraints (not to mention can only carry so many models).



As for cheaters, as said before by several people, most cheats are just a result of accidents. Warhammer 40K and Warhammer are complicated games - in fact they are very complicated games. This is further compounded by having a huge army roster, variable options for most units and also regular updates that change the core operation and stats of the rules. So its very easy for players new and old to mix things up; to remember the rule wrongly or use one from years back.
Codex and Rule book - plus any FAQ from the GW website help to avoid most problems and no player should get shirty if they have to find things in the books or are called out to search - its just part of the nature of this type of game.

Not really encountered any cheating much myself; most common "cheat" is people being lazy about movement of models on the tabletop - sometimes getting an extra bit here and there because they've moved casually. It's generally not a huge deal, and often easy to correct by simply asking to check distances or even just saying lets take this game at a slower pace (movement is one turn where people try to blaze through it, esp if they've a lot of models on the table -and going fast increases the chance for errors).

This is a terrible thread.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
This is a terrible thread.

I happen to agree, I didn't intend to start this and I'm bummed it turned out this way. Maybe I'll try again with a different approach in a few months

Stop throwing stones if you feel that way.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Stop throwing stones if you feel that way.

Oh, no, man. It's Mortetvie. Acrimonious brought up a legit topic, and Mortetvie inserted himself in it by outting himself. None of the UK or Australia or International posters would've had any idea who was being discussed if he'd not posted.

There *are* some parlor politics going on, locally, but they were *not* in this thread, until Mortetvie posted.
- - - - - - -
(and kids, please read the following in mind that my tone is kind, absent of malice, and hoping to put flames out. I'm being nice here, trying to! )

C'mon, Mortetvie, time to let it go; (sincerely, with no malice, I type) I think you have given a good faith (no pun intended) effort to salvage your reputation / your good name or To Save Face. Whichever phrase fits best.

IMHO, I think you've fanned flames that otherwise, might've smoldered out on their own, as poster bloodfist1 more-or-less stated. Besides, reputations are not salvaged by discussion. They're repaired in silence, quietly, over time, by actions, by showing how you play. As you will continue to play in tourneys, may I humbly suggest aiming, not for 1st place, but BestSports? Try a few times.

I've garnered my few Sportsman Wins, not purposely, but possibly by doing a lot of:

a. 5.5 or 5.78 inch measures. I move the model up to 6, and then pull it back a tad.

b. Pretty much every disagreement / argument (by "argument" I mean, "Hey, man, I don't think you have LoS/range" or "I don't think the Scatter is safe, I think you have Mishapped" ) - let your opponent get the call. Every time. These deferrals have probably cost me a game or two, but not likely, I have a lousy tourney record, because I make terrible decisions during games.

These shouldn't affect you too much though, as you're really darn good at this game.

c. Forgetting rolls/options and going back for them. I don't. Usually it's Psy-powers, if you make this mistake like I do (I'll bet you don't forget though), I don't (usually) go back after moving and try to cast Guide/JoWW. Battle Focus? Yeah, I forget half the time to do it and most opponents offer to let me go back and hop my Warp Spiders or Dire Avengers after I've gone on to another unit. I decline (most of the time) and own my responsibility for it.

d. When your opponent forgets *his* rolls/options and gripes about wanting to go "back" for that Move, Run, BattleFocus, PSy-power ... ? Let 'em.

Now, I'm not saying that you don't already do every one of these, having never played you. And oddly, I'm not *quite* talking about how you play the game, instead, I'm talking about your reputation, and reputation repair, which is what you've turned this thread into. Had you not posted, several times, *I* would not be writing this now.

Again, reputations are not made, nor salvaged through *that* person's testimony. The subject of a (bad) reputation has the least possible ability to change His/Hers to the positive through talk. If you want to repair your reputation, I humbly, and kindly suggest, do so, only through your actions at the tables.

 mortetvie wrote:

Believe it or not, I score well on sports in many events and venues

Award paper, or it didn't happen. Lol

I have put this thread on my IGNORE list.

I haven't seen any active cheating where I play, and people are pretty good about ensuring their lists are legal because it has always been an automatic DQ in a tourny to have an illegal list.

Yes people make mistakes, however there are two senerios as I see it, if it is a friendly game then you can ether correct it on the spot or just run with it, after all it is a FRIENDLY game and winning shouldn't be the end all and be all.

However if it is a tourny then the end goal actually is to win, sure there are people who go just for the fun of it however I doubt there are many who play to lose. In this case it is absolutely fair to DQ someone for an illegal list, even if it is a mistake. You had the time to double check your list, its not something you should scribble the night before. Maybe you like to live dangerously, however there are consequences for such actions.

In closing, getting DQ'ed for a simple mistake may seem a little harsh, but that player will most certainly be rechecking his list next time.

 Kelly502 wrote:
Honestly, I tried not to think about the cheating while I was at the event, actually the event helped me forget. Eventually I did divorce her though...

+1 internets to you, good sir. First Exalt is on me.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I have put this thread on my IGNORE list.

Oh good so you can stop posting

Acrimonious wrote:

This gentleman is not a bad player by any means, just a bit of a cur. He has won several small tournaments and a GT. He was running a cut-throat list and had a very shrewd grasp of the game. This made his indiscretions all the more advantageous.

.....

Please don’t degrade the thread by calling people out or slinging mud. That is not the intention of this post. I would like to hear honest opinions and suggestions on how we can keep the game cut-throat without crossing the line into outright cheating. Thanks.

...

Illegal list is an immediate disqualification for the current game, and reversal of any previous victories. (I check the army lists while people are playing, and in a large event, it might be the second or third round before I finish.) The list can be stripped of any illegal selections and any remaining games can still be played, however.

If I feel like someone is deliberately cheating, it's immediate expulsion from the event.

What qualifies 'feels like cheating' ?

Brothererekose wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Stop throwing stones if you feel that way.

Oh, no, man. It's Mortetvie. Acrimonious brought up a legit topic, and Mortetvie inserted himself in it by outting himself. None of the UK or Australia or International posters would've had any idea who was being discussed if he'd not posted.

There *are* some parlor politics going on, locally, but they were *not* in this thread, until Mortetvie posted.

When you start a thread about cheating with "'anonymous' person is a cur and this is what he did which was totally cheating" and give incorrect facts/information about the matter, you could logically consider that post a stone being slung with game parlor politics being brought up as well. In reality, the initial post started off and was framed around an insult and "game parlor politics" in a public manner. Therefore, it was only fitting for me to respond in a public manner as well. Regardless of who may or may not know what was up, It was still obvious to enough people that the OP was actually talking about me and therefore he did in fact "out me" as you say. Any player in a similar scenario should have every opportunity to clarify the matter and my replies were to serve that purpose.

As others have pointed out, my replies were polite and to the point. I still harbor not ill will towards the OP but wish he would have brought things up sooner rather than wait until the event was wrapped up and such. After all, if the appropriate action is to get a TO involved and the person who had a list over points lose that game-the OP completely failed to facilitate this solution and should have just mentioned it as an "fyi" to the TO and player involved and learn for the future rather than make such a big deal about it.

I Agree with Mortetvie, in the fact he should be allowed to give his side of the story and explain any misgivings you seem to harbour against him. He is not trying to Hi-Jack the thread, he wanted to ask what/why you think he did so bad to justify such a sour mood against him (Cur: Definition -a contemptible man). It doesn't matter that you didn't mention his name, HE knew you where talking about him and was understandably unset, yet has responded with nothing but polite and eloquent posts that said if it was such a big problem you should of made a bigger deal rather then simply talking about him behind his back.

Your Bias shows against him by use of the words 'Cut-Throat list', your in a tournament, why on earth would you expect nice ones? Then you have bloodfist taking the 'He said, She said' route which doesn't help anyone. Then earlier you say how when he WAS nice to you (Letting you do stuff you forgot) you almost took it condescendingly saying he already had the game, him being nice meant nothing. Which doesn't make sense. Bad press/reputation is a horrible thing to inflict on someone unjustly, as it colours other peoples view on them without knowing them. So I think you should apologies for 'slinging mud' at him and accept his apology that he is sorry for anything he did wrong, it was not intentional. Then you could get back to the real topic.

I think cheating should have no hard fast rules, because its simply to varied a field to have blanket rules. Local tourney and your 2pts over and you already played a game? talk it over, hopefully lose 2pts and be fine, instant expulsion isn't the way. Loaded Dice, expulsion. Moving to far? depends on how often, but the player should be able to handle it by watching closely. Rules query? Check rulebook or relevant FAQ, then ask TO if no compromise can be made.

Far be it from me to abstain from a scuffle!

Mort - three local guys are calling you out as TFG at this point. I've met Acrimonious and Bloodfist on several occasions and they've never been anything but super cool guys. I like them both.

I've never met you and don't even know who you are, but, all I can say is that you may want to re-evaluate your standing within the local community and take steps to repair your reputation, whether it's deserved or not. You've got three guys on this thread now saying that you may not be the most awesome guy to game with.

That's my subjective evaluation of the situation.

And my objective evaluation? Well, since you asked -

You flat out should have forfeited your winnings once it was discovered that you won game one with a list that was over the points limit. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. That you did not man up and forfeit speaks to your character.

Yep, your replies are "polite and to the point". However, to be honest, it rings hollow and comes across as disingenuous since you really have not taken any responsibility whatsoever for objectively (and subjectively) unsportsmanlike conduct.

 mortetvie wrote:

Brothererekose wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Stop throwing stones if you feel that way.

Oh, no, man. It's Mortetvie. Acrimonious brought up a legit topic, and Mortetvie inserted himself in it by outting himself. None of the UK or Australia or International posters would've had any idea who was being discussed if he'd not posted.

There *are* some parlor politics going on, locally, but they were *not* in this thread, until Mortetvie posted.

When you start a thread about cheating with "'anonymous' person is a cur and this is what he did which was totally cheating" and give incorrect facts/information about the matter, you could logically consider that post a stone being slung with game parlor politics being brought up as well. In reality, the initial post started off and was framed around an insult and "game parlor politics" in a public manner. Therefore, it was only fitting for me to respond in a public manner as well. Regardless of who may or may not know what was up, It was still obvious to enough people that the OP was actually talking about me and therefore he did in fact "out me" as you say. Any player in a similar scenario should have every opportunity to clarify the matter and my replies were to serve that purpose.

As others have pointed out, my replies were polite and to the point. I still harbor not ill will towards the OP but wish he would have brought things up sooner rather than wait until the event was wrapped up and such. After all, if the appropriate action is to get a TO involved and the person who had a list over points lose that game-the OP completely failed to facilitate this solution and should have just mentioned it as an "fyi" to the TO and player involved and learn for the future rather than make such a big deal about it.

How can you be outed amongst people who already know you? Your anonymity amongst the locals is hard to preserve unless you're attending tourneys with a marine helmet on. Your internet anonymity however, was respectfully preserved. And why must the player who you played the illegal list against offer you to forfeit the game? Isn't that on you as an honest player? I myself would not feel pumped about taking a tourney with a game sullied by a points issue under my belt. Especially a tourney in our scene, which in my experience is really full of some of the nicest, most courteous players you could hope for. I'd be bummed out if that lot was calling me out.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
What qualifies 'feels like cheating' ?

So much for putting the thread on you ignore list.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I Agree with Mortetvie, in the fact he should be allowed to give his side of the story and explain any misgivings you seem to harbour against him. He is not trying to Hi-Jack the thread, he wanted to ask what/why you think he did so bad to justify such a sour mood against him (Cur: Definition -a contemptible man). It doesn't matter that you didn't mention his name, HE knew you where talking about him and was understandably unset, yet has responded with nothing but polite and eloquent posts that said if it was such a big problem you should of made a bigger deal rather then simply talking about him behind his back.

Your Bias shows against him by use of the words 'Cut-Throat list', your in a tournament, why on earth would you expect nice ones? Then you have bloodfist taking the 'He said, She said' route which doesn't help anyone. Then earlier you say how when he WAS nice to you (Letting you do stuff you forgot) you almost took it condescendingly saying he already had the game, him being nice meant nothing. Which doesn't make sense. Bad press/reputation is a horrible thing to inflict on someone unjustly, as it colours other peoples view on them without knowing them. So I think you should apologies for 'slinging mud' at him and accept his apology that he is sorry for anything he did wrong, it was not intentional. Then you could get back to the real topic.

I think cheating should have no hard fast rules, because its simply to varied a field to have blanket rules. Local tourney and your 2pts over and you already played a game? talk it over, hopefully lose 2pts and be fine, instant expulsion isn't the way. Loaded Dice, expulsion. Moving to far? depends on how often, but the player should be able to handle it by watching closely. Rules query? Check rulebook or relevant FAQ, then ask TO if no compromise can be made.

It's pretty much this. We often see threads about how "X player was terrible" or "Gamestore employee sucked ass" and so many people want to hear the side of X player or Gamestore Employee. What we have here is a thread doing just that, and now he's being accused of hijacking and outing himself? Stay classy guys, you're wonderful.



In case it isn't obvious, "wonderful" does not actually mean you're wonderful. It means the opposite

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion both in terms of other players and how to handle certain matters. Furthermore, no matter how many of my friends get on here and say what a swell guy I am, I hardly think that would make a difference to the OP, his friends or really anyone else and it would be petty and immature.

As I mentioned, different players obviously feel different ways are appropriate for handling certain offences (as expressed in this thread). Ultimately, it is up to the TOs to determine the appropriate cause of action and I see no reason why abiding by a mutually agreed upon solution to a problem between players should warrant any further problems.

For me, if my opponent was found out to have been over points, I'd be perfectly willing to let them fix the problem in their list and play on. The automatic points over=forfeit idea is not automatically the best or only solution. Indeed, the OP and I came to such a mutually agreeable solution and we moved on-so why make a big deal about it later? I think it is only because I won the event as it was only after that took place that he decided to complain.

Furthermore, I happen to be friends with who my 1st round opponent was and he wouldn't have cared about the matter and would have been fine with me just fixing the points and playing on. Indeed, the 5 points I was over had no bearing on any of my games as the upgrade that bumped me up (lessor gift) was never used or even potentially useful in any of my games.

Therefore, once my second round opponent and I reached the aforementioned mutually agreeable solution and since I ended up playing my 2nd and 3rd game under points-I don't see what the big deal was.

once again, if it was THAT big of a deal to anyone-and both my 2nd and 3rd opponents were aware about my list and what took place to resolve the matter- they SHOULD have done/said something about it before it was too late and before I left the store.

 mortetvie wrote:
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion both in terms of other players and how to handle certain matters. Furthermore, no matter how many of my friends get on here and say what a swell guy I am, I hardly think that would make a difference to the OP, his friends or really anyone else and it would be petty and immature.

As I mentioned, different players obviously feel different ways are appropriate for handling certain offences (as expressed in this thread). Ultimately, it is up to the TOs to determine the appropriate cause of action and I see no reason why abiding by a mutually agreed upon solution to a problem between players should warrant any further problems.

For me, if my opponent was found out to have been over points, I'd be perfectly willing to let them fix the problem in their list and play on. The automatic points over=forfeit idea is not automatically the best or only solution. Indeed, the OP and I came to such a mutually agreeable solution and we moved on-so why make a big deal about it later? I think it is only because I won the event as it was only after that took place that he decided to complain.

Furthermore, I happen to be friends with who my 1st round opponent was and he wouldn't have cared about the matter and would have been fine with me just fixing the points and playing on. Indeed, the 5 points I was over had no bearing on any of my games as the upgrade that bumped me up (lessor gift) was never used or even potentially useful in any of my games.

Therefore, once my second round opponent and I reached the aforementioned mutually agreeable solution and since I ended up playing my 2nd and 3rd game under points-I don't see what the big deal was.

once again, if it was THAT big of a deal to anyone-and both my 2nd and 3rd opponents were aware about my list and what took place to resolve the matter- they SHOULD have done/said something about it before it was too late and before I left the store.

You're still trying to explain your way out of it, fact is you were over points, and should've been DQ'ed from the current game, and all wins reversed. Intent doesn't matter, only actions. How can you even hope to prove your intent with at least 3 seperate parties speaking against you?

Niexist wrote:

You're still trying to explain your way out of it, fact is you were over points, and should've been DQ'ed from the current game, and all wins reversed. Intent doesn't matter, only actions. How can you even hope to prove your intent with at least 3 seperate parties speaking against you?

Thank's for helping me make my point...That "should have been DQed" is not necessarily THE one and only way to handle being over points (as expressed by many different posters) and so it is not automatism/necessarily true someone should be DQed for it as you believe.

Secondly, regarding intent, unless you are psychic and can read minds/hearts-you have no idea what someone truly intends to do through their actions. Also, intent is the defining characteristic behind cheating so how can you say intent doesn't matter?

In actuality, how I handled the matter and reacted to being over points should indicate that it was not a purposeful or malicious thing that occurred. I was genuinely surprised to find out I was over points and I asked the OP what he wanted to do to resolve the issue and if me dropping wargear to be under points would be cool with him. He said it was cool, so we moved on.

Furthermore, you go on to attack me saying intent doesn't matter then say because other people going off of hearsay are speaking against me that my intent must be bad. It doesn't matter how many people are speaking against me, what matters are the facts and the truth.

Just a suggestion, but just leave the poor guy be, he made a mistake, and if you don't believe it, then go on and don't believe it. Keep those thoughts to PMs if it really matters that much. We are not here to discuss the past, but how to handle the future if something like this occurs again.

 mortetvie wrote:

Niexist wrote:

You're still trying to explain your way out of it, fact is you were over points, and should've been DQ'ed from the current game, and all wins reversed. Intent doesn't matter, only actions. How can you even hope to prove your intent with at least 3 seperate parties speaking against you?

Thank's for helping me make my point...That "should have been DQed" is not necessarily THE one and only way to handle being over points (as expressed by many different posters) and so it is not automatism/necessarily true someone should be DQed for it as you believe.

Secondly, regarding intent, unless you are psychic and can read minds/hearts-you have no idea what someone truly intends to do through their actions. Also, intent is the defining characteristic behind cheating so how can you say intent doesn't matter?

In actuality, how I handled the matter and reacted to being over points should indicate that it was not a purposeful or malicious thing that occurred. I was genuinely surprised to find out I was over points and I asked the OP what he wanted to do to resolve the issue and if me dropping wargear to be under points would be cool with him. He said it was cool, so we moved on.

Furthermore, you go on to attack me saying intent doesn't matter then say because other people going off of hearsay are speaking against me that my intent must be bad. It doesn't matter how many people are speaking against me, what matters are the facts and the truth.

So you're telling me that you won an event when you played 1.5 games out of 3 as being over points with an illegal list, and that you taking home a prize is fair to the other players? I'm sure you acted very surprised when you were caught cheating, most cheaters do, reminds me of how "shocked" professional athletes are when they're accused of steroid use...only to find out it is true.

As far as "facts and truth" The fact is that you cheated, and the truth is t hat we'll never know your intent, only you will and if you did cheat, would you come on a major internet forum and say "sorry guys, I really wanted to win so I cheated"? Doubtful, so either way your ethics are in question.

Also I believe it was you who came here sounding like a yolo swag kid talking about "haters gonna hate". Which I'm sure adds tons of credibility to you.

Niexist, your post perfectly encaptulates the hostility and unjustified ill will regarding the matter.

You get the facts wrong yourself and then come out and conclusively demonstrate that your mind is made up I cheated without any proof.

Btw, dictionary.com has a good definition of cheating you might want to check out. Intentionallity in defrauding/knowingly doing something wrong is a requirement to cheating. But I guess you, who were not present and didn't see or hear anything first hand, can come to your own conclusions.

Besides, I don't need to be over points to win games or events-it makes no sense to purposefully and illegally squeeze in a useless upgrade to win an event (which can hardly be akin to taking steroids as an athlete)...I would not personally want to win an event because of some wargear I ilegally purchased but as it stands the upgrades made no difference in my winning anything-but I digress, I am greatful to all the readers/posters that see I am merely trying to politely give my side of the facts and I now leave it at that.

Niexist wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:

Niexist wrote:

You're still trying to explain your way out of it, fact is you were over points, and should've been DQ'ed from the current game, and all wins reversed. Intent doesn't matter, only actions. How can you even hope to prove your intent with at least 3 seperate parties speaking against you?

Thank's for helping me make my point...That "should have been DQed" is not necessarily THE one and only way to handle being over points (as expressed by many different posters) and so it is not automatism/necessarily true someone should be DQed for it as you believe.

Secondly, regarding intent, unless you are psychic and can read minds/hearts-you have no idea what someone truly intends to do through their actions. Also, intent is the defining characteristic behind cheating so how can you say intent doesn't matter?

In actuality, how I handled the matter and reacted to being over points should indicate that it was not a purposeful or malicious thing that occurred. I was genuinely surprised to find out I was over points and I asked the OP what he wanted to do to resolve the issue and if me dropping wargear to be under points would be cool with him. He said it was cool, so we moved on.

Furthermore, you go on to attack me saying intent doesn't matter then say because other people going off of hearsay are speaking against me that my intent must be bad. It doesn't matter how many people are speaking against me, what matters are the facts and the truth.

So you're telling me that you won an event when you played 1.5 games out of 3 as being over points with an illegal list, and that you taking home a prize is fair to the other players? I'm sure you acted very surprised when you were caught cheating, most cheaters do, reminds me of how "shocked" professional athletes are when they're accused of steroid use...only to find out it is true.

As far as "facts and truth" The fact is that you cheated, and the truth is t hat we'll never know your intent, only you will and if you did cheat, would you come on a major internet forum and say "sorry guys, I really wanted to win so I cheated"? Doubtful, so either way your ethics are in question.

Also I believe it was you who came here sounding like a yolo swag kid talking about "haters gonna hate". Which I'm sure adds tons of credibility to you.

Niexist,

Your viewpoints are very extreme. Someone makes an honest mistake and that is proof-positive that they are a cheater? Then almost every one who's ever played this game is a cheater as we all have made honest mistakes before, whether it be from ignorance of the rules, ignorance of someone else's codex or just a simple math error. Even the greats have made mistakes before. Tony Kopach's list for the very 1st Nova was over by 3-pts. At the second Nova, he made a mistake in how he used Njal's Tempest of Storms. Does that make him a cheat? I don't think so.

Yes, mistakes like this should be penalized in a tournament setting, but how they are penalized is up to the TO of the tournament. If the 2 parties involved can come up with a resolution and that is ok with the TO, then it really is a closed-book case. After all, it is the TO and the reputation of his tournament that is at stake, not some person from the Internet who has nothing to do with the tournament itself. It's easy to proclaim absolutes from the net, but unless you actually have firsthand experience with the player in question, you really don't have any right to call someone a cheater without any proof. Cheating is done with intent. There is no proof here on any bad intent, at least that I can see.

 jy2 wrote:
Tony Kopach's list for the very 1st Nova was over by 3-pts.

And if I had played in that tournament I would have been absolutely furious that he was allowed to keep that win. He should have lost every game he used the illegal list in and had his prize awarded to the person who won the tournament with a legitimate list. Whether or not it was an honest mistake it's just unbelievable that the NOVA staff would let him keep those illegitimate wins.

If the 2 parties involved can come up with a resolution and that is ok with the TO, then it really is a closed-book case.

No it isn't, because there are more than just two parties involved. Every single other player in the event has a right to complain because any wins obtained with an illegal list have an impact on their standings. As a TO you have no right to tell the person one spot below the person with an illegal list "sorry, they worked out a solution, better luck next time". You are obligated to remove the illegitimate wins as an absolute minimum, and failure to do so makes a joke of your "tournament".

Cheating is done with intent. There is no proof here on any bad intent, at least that I can see.

Just look at it this way: who is going to be stupid enough to admit to the TO or community that they deliberately went over the point limit? How exactly is a deliberate cheater's statement about the incident going to look different from a statement by someone who made an honest mistake? The answer is they're going to look exactly the same to anyone who can't read the offender's mind. And that's why you give automatic game losses, because you have no idea whether it was deliberate or not and you have to protect the integrity of the tournament.

Must be nice to live in such a black and white world...So what happens when one is over on points and loses. Furthermore the "cheat" only effects the players he/she plays against (unless the tournament is decided by battle points), and often times not even then.

Tournaments are about fun...not a bout legitimacy.

So you're telling me that you won an event when you played 1.5 games out of 3 as being over points with an illegal list, and that you taking home a prize is fair to the other players? I'm sure you acted very surprised when you were caught cheating, most cheaters do, reminds me of how "shocked" professional athletes are when they're accused of steroid use...only to find out it is true.

As far as "facts and truth" The fact is that you cheated, and the truth is t hat we'll never know your intent, only you will and if you did cheat, would you come on a major internet forum and say "sorry guys, I really wanted to win so I cheated"? Doubtful, so either way your ethics are in question.

Also I believe it was you who came here sounding like a yolo swag kid talking about "haters gonna hate". Which I'm sure adds tons of credibility to you.

These comments are hugely unfair, in the fact they are calling him out a cheat (a dishonest one too) and saying he shouldn't of taken the prize, even though they had already sorted the matter with the TO. The TO had made a decision to let him continue playing with a changed list, that's the TO choice. Its his tournament and you should abide by his choices and in calling him out as a cheat and a 'TFG' with no evidence other then hearsay shows massive bias and more then a little sour grapes.

When taking into account intent since when did we start with guilty until proven innocent? The TO should try everything his power to keep people in the tournament because that's why he is running, for people to play. Its counter productive to be expelling people for slights when I could easily be resolved in another way.

As to your 'Haters gonna Hate' comment...now your clutching at straws.

10pts.A good player would still win.That's what you've been fighting about.Really?

Bringing an illegal list is still bringing an illegal list. Sure, it may not be someone's intention to cheat (just like how Mike Wazowski won the Scare Games in Monster University... obscure reference!) but it doesn't change the fact that it is illegal. Sportsmanship-wise, if I found myself winning a tournament and discovered that I accidentally "cheated" (cheated here meaning "doing something against the rules of the tourney and the game", regardless of intention), I would've forfeited the prize and winnings.

There is no way of measuring someone's intention accurately. That is a fact. If someone is caught doing something illegal, how are we supposed to know that it's just an honest mistake? It may sound harsh, but I do think that it's part of your responsibility as a sportsman, gentleman/gentlelady and player to make sure that you are playing fair and square, and if you had an illegal advantage over your opponent, it is also your responsibility to correct that.

 Peregrine wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Tony Kopach's list for the very 1st Nova was over by 3-pts.

And if I had played in that tournament I would have been absolutely furious that he was allowed to keep that win. He should have lost every game he used the illegal list in and had his prize awarded to the person who won the tournament with a legitimate list. Whether or not it was an honest mistake it's just unbelievable that the NOVA staff would let him keep those illegitimate wins.

Just a quickie here; Tony's win was revoked from the 2010 NOVA due to the 3 points over. His prizes were offered to those he played against (aka, including the guy who came in 2nd), all of whom refused them on grounds he would have beaten them anyway. We still revoked his win. Don't get off on a tangent when you do n't have all the info required. Further, you know I run NOVA and am on this forum; if you're looking to just be ragey on the internet, that's cool; you could also just PM the organizer and share your displeasure.

PS - Also, just for good measure, those of us who know him personally have forever after referred to him as T-3PO; Tony-3 Points Over.

 mortetvie wrote:
Niexist, your post perfectly encaptulates the hostility and unjustified ill will regarding the matter.

You get the facts wrong yourself and then come out and conclusively demonstrate that your mind is made up I cheated without any proof.

Btw, dictionary.com has a good definition of cheating you might want to check out. Intentionallity in defrauding/knowingly doing something wrong is a requirement to cheating. But I guess you, who were not present and didn't see or hear anything first hand, can come to your own conclusions.

Besides, I don't need to be over points to win games or events-it makes no sense to purposefully and illegally squeeze in a useless upgrade to win an event (which can hardly be akin to taking steroids as an athlete)...I would not personally want to win an event because of some wargear I ilegally purchased but as it stands the upgrades made no difference in my winning anything-but I digress, I am greatful to all the readers/posters that see I am merely trying to politely give my side of the facts and I now leave it at that.

Again, no one knows what your true intent was besides you, and if you did purposefully cheat you will lie about it to the bitter end making posts just like the above one. Like my grandma used to say, a lie will cheat, and a cheat will steal.

Here is the difference between you, and I. If it was me, and I accidentally made a list that was over points, even if the TO's said it was okay just fix the list, I would've forefeited myself from all prizes, because ***I*** wouldn't feel right about it. The fact that you didn't do the same speaks volumes about your own character to me, and is a pretty good indicator of whether or not it was intentional.

 Peregrine wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Tony Kopach's list for the very 1st Nova was over by 3-pts.

And if I had played in that tournament I would have been absolutely furious that he was allowed to keep that win. He should have lost every game he used the illegal list in and had his prize awarded to the person who won the tournament with a legitimate list. Whether or not it was an honest mistake it's just unbelievable that the NOVA staff would let him keep those illegitimate wins.

If the 2 parties involved can come up with a resolution and that is ok with the TO, then it really is a closed-book case.

No it isn't, because there are more than just two parties involved. Every single other player in the event has a right to complain because any wins obtained with an illegal list have an impact on their standings. As a TO you have no right to tell the person one spot below the person with an illegal list "sorry, they worked out a solution, better luck next time". You are obligated to remove the illegitimate wins as an absolute minimum, and failure to do so makes a joke of your "tournament".

Cheating is done with intent. There is no proof here on any bad intent, at least that I can see.

Just look at it this way: who is going to be stupid enough to admit to the TO or community that they deliberately went over the point limit? How exactly is a deliberate cheater's statement about the incident going to look different from a statement by someone who made an honest mistake? The answer is they're going to look exactly the same to anyone who can't read the offender's mind. And that's why you give automatic game losses, because you have no idea whether it was deliberate or not and you have to protect the integrity of the tournament.

That's really between the TO and the players involved. You can sit here and spew out absolutes all you want, but you are not the TO of the game or involved with it in any way, shape or form.

The TO has the responsibility to resolve all matters of conflict with the players involved. Expulsion is one solution, though somewhat extreme. Forfeiture of games is another. Finally, so is removing the offending wargear. The TO is the person who has to decide any punishment to fit the crime and the other parties involved also have a say in the matter. The fact that the OP didn't bring up any objections at the time of the event and instead played on is acknowledgement that he accepted the TO's decision.

As for intent, that really is for the TO and players involved to divine. From the testimonies of the party involved, it doesn't appear to me that it was intentional but rather, a mistake. Then again, each person will form their own opinion, as a few in this thread has already done. Some may look at it as "he committed a crime, therefore he must be guilty." I look at it as "did he commit a crime or just a mistake?".

I believe that cheaters should be DQ'd, but only legitimate cheats. The whole "ten points over" is bothersome, and shouldn't be allowed in tourniment play, but there can definately be justified mistakes in play. I know I make them. If you are over, change your list as soon as you notice or it is pointed out to you. MARK IT ON YOUR LIST so you don't make that mistake again. As an opponent, make sure they do it so there is not excuse if they do it again.
Legitimate cheating (ie, painting extra pips on some dice so there are no ones or twos) should be instant DQ and ban: most players I know will just refuse to play them any more.

The most important rules are do your best, don't repeat the same mistakes if you can help it, and DONT WHINE IF YOU ARE CALLED OUT ON IT. You made a mistake: pony up and apologize, and don't try to justify it. Be gracious, and people will actually want to play you again.

For all those saying either

1.) Any mistake should lead to DQ

2.) If I made a mistake I would auto DQ myself

I would like to watch their games to make sure no mistakes were ever made.

What if you miss a morale check and it wins you the game...do you go back and forfeit?

Same thing....

Like I said, as a TO pre-check lists (doing it at the event is a little late.), and send them for corrections when they are wrong...it removes this need to DQ people who screw up.

I also find it interesting that we are only interested in punishing people when they win if they make a mistake.

If I am 100 points over and lose ever game....do you still care?

Or is a lot of this hey he screwed up and I didn't win so lets DQ him so I look better.

Well...true cheaters don't do it without reasons. Mostly, it is for the purpose of victory - and in a tournament where you reward the "best player", there will be people who will try to use all means so that they can win.

So, yeah, TO can try to be as harsh as they can if they have proofs that someone truly cheated, but that's something quite difficult to do in something that is, in fact, just a game. Most "bad situations" in an event are actually misunderstandings (the pressure of a competitive game can be such that it is easy to "suspect" the other player from trying to "fool" you to gain an advantage - some like to use the "psychological weapon" as well) or honest mistakes. There are of course cases of "untold truths" or other borderline situations that aren't technically cheating but still not really fairplay. It all depends of the morality of the player himself...and his point of view about the purpose of a game.

Another solution would be to remove the reasons to cheat/"win at all costs", like trying to make different events where victory isn't the sole purpose for players, but just the pleasure to play with others. No ranking of "the best players", rewarding all players instead of just the first on top, trying to reward other aspects of the Hobby, and so on.

Of course, that would mean not all players would be interested. But it's a fact most troublesome players tend to be the ones who are obsessed with winning over others - and generally, those are people who go to competitive tournaments.

Anyway, a cheater will never be able to go unnoticed forever. Sooner or later, they get caught - and retribution will eventually come to them. Trouble is all the fun they will take away from the players who played against them.

This thread has gotten kind of ridiculous.

We have two different sides to a situation. They both agree on certain points.

His list was over on points(One says 5, the other 10). The TO was brought over Game 2, and at that time the TO and players came to a mutually agreed solution, drop a single piece of wargear(Lesser Gift). The TO chose not to revoke wins, not to DQ the player, but merely bring their army withing points.

Their appear to be disagreement if he did or did not play the final game over on points.

Given the caliber of player involved, I am inclined to believe it was an accidental overage. Lets face it, Mortieve doesn't need 5 extra points to beat opponents. The rest of the responses seem like the OP whining about being beat in a tournament and latching onto a single point of contention to assault Mortieve. And yes, I believe the first post reads as an assault on Mortieve as many of the Cal playters are on this forums. I believe it was a passive aggressive attack and intentional.


Regardless, the TO made a ruling, it was final. Any complaints should be directed at said TO, not at the player as by all reports he accepted arguably fair decision of the TO.



Now, when things like this happen it needs to be brought to the TO and their ruling is final. If it is severe enough, loaded dice, etc there should be a DQ. But, for a minor offense and likely honest mistake I find the dropping of an upgrade or model suitable. Again, it is up to the players and TO.

How do you deal with points being over, and as a subset I would also say things like Force Organization mistakes, in national tournaments is normally an automatic forefit of games played with these types of mistakes. In local tournaments your T.O. is the final say, if you want to press to play like a national tournament and have absolutes in list building take it up with him, if you want to have other options other than negating wins/points than you have abide by what was decided.

Very few if any 40k games are played perfectly by both sides with absolutely no rules mistakes, measuring mistakes, or general gameplay mistakes, even tournament batreps often have comments in them such as "we played this wrong."

Intention can't be determined therefore there is a very easy litmus test to tell if somone is actually cheating. First call him out that what he is doing is wrong, if he agrees, or if he doesn't and you call a T.O. and the T.O. agrees than this sets a precident, if the person commits the same act later in the game, and or in another game than he is cheating as he has already been corrected but chooses to purposefully play incorrectly.

Aside from that its a mistake, plain and simple, people want to ascribe intentions to others mistakes but honestly you don't have a clue weather he knew better or not, so deciding he did know and or even worse, thinking he should have know speaks volumes about your charcter not his. A mistake that is reapted over multiple games is still a mistake.

As far as the specific instance presented it seems to me that your group of friends has gotten together and decided that mort deliberately played incorrectly multiple games with multiple opponents, the real question you should be asking yourselves is did anyone tell him that during your games, if so did he agree that what he was doing was wrong, and or was told by a T.O. that what he was doing was wrong, and lastly did he do it wrong again after he had agreed.

From everything posted so far that doesn't seem to be true in the case presented. Therefore mort could very easily had made mistakes, but there is nothing to say he cheated.

As to some people saying they would not take a prize if they had know they had made a mistake, thats a personal thing, which mistakes warrant taking youself out of the prize pool is a personal decision and you cannot ascribe what you would do yourself to another person.

Late to the party, but there is a history with Mortvie and I have personally gotten burned by trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. He specializes in passive aggressive envelope pushing and then doubles down on the jesus talk when you call him out on it. He is the sole reason that there are now painting requirements at GE, but I will let others fill in the blanks on that one. Let me state that I went full circle, as I was someone who argued for others to give him a second chance and then watched him methodically and systematically cheat and exploit at numerous events over a long period. You name it, he has done it and more than one person can attest to this. What makes him a unique case is that he tailors his cheating and rules bending to whomever he is playing based on what he feels he can get away with, which pretty much verifies that it is intentional.

How bad is he? Well, he is one of three people I have ever played in two decades that I outright refuse to play again. The other two are an actual autistic guy who made physical threats against the wife of an organizer and a used car salesmen who shares his playbook (but is not as good at it), so he is among some esteemed company. How bad is he? At the tournament where I had finally had enough of his antics, I put a $100 bill down and said anyone who was willing to play him three times in the same weekend (as I had) could claim it. I had no takers. How bad is he? Ask Blackmoor about cocked dice and blast templates sometime. His behavior is really not debatable.

What is debatable is what you do about someone like this. As an organizer, I think you basically need to grow a pair and toss people like this out or at the bare minimum, tell them upfront that they are on a short leash and will be punted after the first sign of shenanigans. Of course, the players have a responsibility to report this sort of thing because the TO cannot be everywhere at once, even when they know who the problem players are. At the last RTT I ran that Mort showed up, for example, he moved a guys minis when he went to the restroom. Three people saw him do it, but no one had the balls to say something until after awards were done and he left. A TO cannot do anything if the players do not help out on this.

But the short answer is, you boot cheaters and tolerate zero army list errors. To do otherwise, it to basically greenlight these sorts of things, and people like Mort are experts at taking that proverbial inch and running a hundred miles with it. Cheating is a rot that must be cut out judiciously like the cancer it is, or it will kill the community.

Hey, I thought I was on the short list of people you refuse to play Phazael....Gonna have to work harder the next time I see you!

I'm a bit surprised this thread hasnt been nuked yet.

To be clear, I dont think being a few points over on a list should result in a ban from an event. That's ridiculous, and that's not what happened here. The TO made a decision he thought was best for his community based on a long history, and I dont need to justify that any further.

The points issue was brought to the TOs attention immediately, but all of the other indiscretions combined are what led to action happening after the conclusion of the event. It wasn't until I had a chance to discuss with another player what all happened in the last two games did an obvious pattern emerge so saying I whined after the fact just doesnt make sense.

Acrimonious wrote:
I'm a bit surprised this thread hasnt been nuked yet.

To be clear, I dont think being a few points over on a list should result in a ban from an event. That's ridiculous, and that's not what happened here. The TO made a decision he thought was best for his community based on a long history, and I dont need to justify that any further.

The points issue was brought to the TOs attention immediately, but all of the other indiscretions combined are what led to action happening after the conclusion of the event. It wasn't until I had a chance to discuss with another player what all happened in the last two games did an obvious pattern emerge so saying I whined after the fact just doesnt make sense.

I am certainly in favor of this thread being locked at this point.

 Phazael wrote:
Late to the party, but there is a history with Mortvie and I have personally gotten burned by trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. He specializes in passive aggressive envelope pushing and then doubles down on the jesus talk when you call him out on it. He is the sole reason that there are now painting requirements at GE, but I will let others fill in the blanks on that one. Let me state that I went full circle, as I was someone who argued for others to give him a second chance and then watched him methodically and systematically cheat and exploit at numerous events over a long period. You name it, he has done it and more than one person can attest to this. What makes him a unique case is that he tailors his cheating and rules bending to whomever he is playing based on what he feels he can get away with, which pretty much verifies that it is intentional.

How bad is he? Well, he is one of three people I have ever played in two decades that I outright refuse to play again. The other two are an actual autistic guy who made physical threats against the wife of an organizer and a used car salesmen who shares his playbook (but is not as good at it), so he is among some esteemed company. How bad is he? At the tournament where I had finally had enough of his antics, I put a $100 bill down and said anyone who was willing to play him three times in the same weekend (as I had) could claim it. I had no takers. How bad is he? Ask Blackmoor about cocked dice and blast templates sometime. His behavior is really not debatable.

What is debatable is what you do about someone like this. As an organizer, I think you basically need to grow a pair and toss people like this out or at the bare minimum, tell them upfront that they are on a short leash and will be punted after the first sign of shenanigans. Of course, the players have a responsibility to report this sort of thing because the TO cannot be everywhere at once, even when they know who the problem players are. At the last RTT I ran that Mort showed up, for example, he moved a guys minis when he went to the restroom. Three people saw him do it, but no one had the balls to say something until after awards were done and he left. A TO cannot do anything if the players do not help out on this.

But the short answer is, you boot cheaters and tolerate zero army list errors. To do otherwise, it to basically greenlight these sorts of things, and people like Mort are experts at taking that proverbial inch and running a hundred miles with it. Cheating is a rot that must be cut out judiciously like the cancer it is, or it will kill the community.

That settles it. Mort, four guys now calling you out on being TFG in one thread with numerous parallels in their stories? You can claim "hearsay" or whatever other obfuscation you like, but that does it in my book. You are, for all intents and purposes, TFG.

Flat out, you would be banned from attending any event I put on. I'll be asking the guys offline who you are so I can know who to avoid.

How to handle cheating at 40k events? Ban guys like Mortvie. Simple. It's time the community got hard-nosed about this kind of nonsense. It's toy soldiers FFS. No place for cheating.

I wasn't going to post anything more but I'll just say this and leave it at that:

There are people that dislike me and how I play but never say anything to my face when anything comes up; then there are people that like me and enjoy playing me and have no problems.

With such a disparity and polarity in the community it makes one wonder where the problem really is. There seems to be a lens people want to see things through that colors everything I do.

If some models are shifted from people bumping into the table and I move the figures back to their original position, I'm moving my opponents models to cheat.

If I interpret a rule differently than them, I am gaming the system.

If I play a unit differently than they do I am cheating.

Every legitimate action can be misinterpreted and misconstrued. If there is a problem, it should be brought up immediately and to a TO, otherwise the inaction and subsequent complaining is just gossip.

Someone should not be banned for a reputation but for actual and specific instances as they arise.

No, Mort. Simply more obfuscation. You absolutely should be banned because of your reputation. And I am telling you right now you would not be welcome at any event I was hosting based solely on your reputation.

Why don't Acrimonious, Bloodfist, Overwatch, Thokt, Phazael, myself, or any other local players have four people now coming out of the woodwork to call us out on an odious pattern of in-person behavior?

I think you already know the answer, but I will spell it out - because you are guilty of said behavior on an ongoing and notorious basis. There are numerous witnesses to this fact.

Flat out, people like you need to be banned from local events and the community as a whole needs to stand up to people like you.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Hey, I thought I was on the short list of people you refuse to play Phazael....Gonna have to work harder the next time I see you!

Brad, you play rough lists and you play fluffy lists, but you have never done anything that even has a hint of unfair play and you are a great sportsman. But if you really want to get on my no fly list, then start bashing Favre and the Packers and we will work something out.....

 Phazael wrote:
Ask Blackmoor about cocked dice and blast templates sometime. His behavior is really not debatable.

That is funny. Someone else at the tournament must have told you about that because I had forgotten it because it did not even register to me as an issue.

I want to say that I will play Mortetvie anytime, anywhere. He is one of the best players in So. Cal and I always want the challenge of playing one of the best.

We have had some issues in the past, but I never dwell on it and just move on.

Life it too short for too much aggravation over a game of 40k.

Good lord, people. Some of the behavior in this thread is egregious - if we moderated with the same black/white lines some of you are trying to draw here, I could cheerfully ban 6 or 7 people for this thread alone.

Enough.