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While I don't run many tournaments, I've found that if someone is over on the allowed points letting each opponent choose what to remove is a fair compromise. 10pts over? Your opponents get to look at your list and remove a 10pt upgrade that doesn't affect WYSIWIG. If you don't have any upgrades at that value, they can remove the next higher point value one or (if there are none of those) a complete model of the same points value. A single illegal meltabomb on a character for 5pts can swing the results of a 2000pt game with a good dice roll and I firmly believe that people who don't bother to check their own math should neither benefit nor have no adverse affect from that . Hell, I'd even be fine with penalizing a player who was over by making them that many points *UNDER* for the rest of the tourny.

OP, there is definitely a bit of a problem with your first post. You call the opponent a cur and say there were issues with him and sling insults at him (cur is an insult, don't deny it). The poster who you are discussing defends himself in a polite manner, and calls some of your actions childish yes, but you slung the first insults and got upset that he called your actions childish. He has also been polite on here and you have been quite harsh towards him since the beginning. I hope the TO doesn't ban him from future tournaments, as it sounds like you just took a disliking to him and had an excuse (10 points) to nail him over. And yes, I used to run tournaments at my old game store. I have quick list checks at the beginning and if a point cost was missed at the beginning and won a round, it was discussed between players and something appropriate was removed and the tournament went on. The store owner was also included in the decision, as he was the one making money from the tourney. Never had any complaints. The fact that they were small, local tournies helped. I even played as well, if there was an odd number. If I wasn't running it, I played regardless.

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:

Aftermath. wrote:
I almost got into a fist fight with a TFG during a 5th edition tournament. He was running a list with 9 Rhinos, and was moving a couple of them twice in the same turn. It was hard to keep track of with so many rhinos on the board, but I watched him do it.

I called him on it, and he started to get nasty. I told him lets roll it off like gentleman, and he continued to be a betch. I snapped and told him to shut his fackin mouth, and if it continues we can step outside and settle it.

What a tough guy! Hey guys, look at this tough guy over here! I bet he also has a smokin hot girlfriend. So lucky!

Oh yes. And his opponent was no doubt smelly and autistic, hence his rage. Aftermath hates autistic people.

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:

Aftermath. wrote:
I almost got into a fist fight with a TFG during a 5th edition tournament. He was running a list with 9 Rhinos, and was moving a couple of them twice in the same turn. It was hard to keep track of with so many rhinos on the board, but I watched him do it.

I called him on it, and he started to get nasty. I told him lets roll it off like gentleman, and he continued to be a betch. I snapped and told him to shut his fackin mouth, and if it continues we can step outside and settle it.

What a tough guy! Hey guys, look at this tough guy over here! I bet he also has a smokin hot girlfriend. So lucky!

Also, the the OP who called out the other guy who is arguing with him in this thread both sound terrible.

I know them both, played them both. Your assumption is incorrect. To be fair the guy he "called out", which he didn't, outed himself as the subject of the OP.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
OP, there is definitely a bit of a problem with your first post. You call the opponent a cur and say there were issues with him and sling insults at him (cur is an insult, don't deny it). The poster who you are discussing defends himself in a polite manner, and calls some of your actions childish yes, but you slung the first insults and got upset that he called your actions childish. He has also been polite on here and you have been quite harsh towards him since the beginning. I hope the TO doesn't ban him from future tournaments, as it sounds like you just took a disliking to him and had an excuse (10 points) to nail him over. And yes, I used to run tournaments at my old game store. I have quick list checks at the beginning and if a point cost was missed at the beginning and won a round, it was discussed between players and something appropriate was removed and the tournament went on. The store owner was also included in the decision, as he was the one making money from the tourney. Never had any complaints. The fact that they were small, local tournies helped. I even played as well, if there was an odd number. If I wasn't running it, I played regardless.

Nothing childish about Acrimonious, he's a real gentleman of a player. I think it's clear here that he got burned during the game in other ways which he has not discussed here, but as the OP is not specifically about one particular game, but how to handle cheating in a broader sense at tourneys, he spared the ugly details to discuss something greater. If you play Acrimonious in a game you quickly realize he strives for fair, fun games - it probably bothered him a bit, as it would anyone, to be taken advantage of in tourney play.

 Thokt wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
OP, there is definitely a bit of a problem with your first post. You call the opponent a cur and say there were issues with him and sling insults at him (cur is an insult, don't deny it). The poster who you are discussing defends himself in a polite manner, and calls some of your actions childish yes, but you slung the first insults and got upset that he called your actions childish. He has also been polite on here and you have been quite harsh towards him since the beginning. I hope the TO doesn't ban him from future tournaments, as it sounds like you just took a disliking to him and had an excuse (10 points) to nail him over. And yes, I used to run tournaments at my old game store. I have quick list checks at the beginning and if a point cost was missed at the beginning and won a round, it was discussed between players and something appropriate was removed and the tournament went on. The store owner was also included in the decision, as he was the one making money from the tourney. Never had any complaints. The fact that they were small, local tournies helped. I even played as well, if there was an odd number. If I wasn't running it, I played regardless.

Nothing childish about Acrimonious, he's a real gentleman of a player. I think it's clear here that he got burned during the game in other ways which he has not discussed here, but as the OP is not specifically about one particular game, but how to handle cheating in a broader sense at tourneys, he spared the ugly details to discuss something greater. If you play Acrimonious in a game you quickly realize he strives for fair, fun games - it probably bothered him a bit, as it would anyone, to be taken advantage of in tourney play.

Both of these posts bring up good points and I generally agree with what timetowaste said and I think Thokt highlights one reason why I posted here in the first place:

I agree that the op did not specifically mention or call anyone out specifically-not in a manner the general community would recognize. However, the facts were specific enough for anyone vaguely familiar with the matter/store to know what was up so in an indirect way, he was "calling me out." Many people only heard his side of the story/facts and not mine and have jumped to conclusions/presumed things. I have chosen personally to not get involved or make a big deal about the matter until I saw the OP post something about it publicly, as he did here.

If the OP was truly interested in the acedamic pursuit of the cheating topic, he should not have said anything like "cur of a person cheated and this is what he did." In fact, the majority of his post was framed around sore feelings about his game with me.

Regarding my game with him, the list being over was a mistake not done intentionally to gain an advantage, as I explained in detail. We came to an agreement regarding the issue and moved on, as was appropriate. if the TO and any opponent felt strongly that I should not have won or gotten prizes, they should have said and gotten the TO involved right away- I would have been happy to oblige by any ruling.

Furthermore, I gather much of his allegations further mentioned or "withheld" are either misunderstandings or just false. If there were any units/rules misplayed as well, that was also due to an unfamiliarity with the demon codex or relevant rules as I was mainly going off of my brief reading of the book and how I saw other people play it against me-these issues should also have been brought up during the game and to the TO right away. In the end, the OP did none of this but after all was said and done chose to make a big deal about it.

There were times I lost a game due to a misplayed unit/rule on my opponents side but if I don't catch it during the game, no biggie, I just learn for the future-I don't assume they were a cheater or anything!

People get rules wrong, that doesn't make them cheaters... And besides, if I got any wrong, I apologize but it wasn't on purpose. That's the difference between cheating-purposefully misplaying things you know are wrong versus accidentally misplaying things.

As was mentioned before, if you see someone doing something wrong, bring it to their attention/call a judge. If you don't, it's your own fault and don't jump to the conclusion they were cheating!

I'm just gonna come out and say this, but Mort you've been pointed out to me by several different people at several different times as being TFG. to avoid playing with you, and if i have to play you I.E. in a tourney, to watch you very closely as you tend to ... push the boundaries of acceptable rules bending. and to head off all the people at the pass that are gonna nerd rage about acceptable rule bending, or say that they are titans of chivalry and have never stooped to such antics... stop it. we all know what i mean, tons of people move 6.8" or pivot a flyer 103 degrees etc etc etc. that being said Mort, clearly you are not scoring well at sportsmanship either in tourneys or out. and I'm speaking in a broad sense here but where there's smoke there is fire imo. If 1 person has a close game and takes the loss poorly and talks sh*t, that's life. but if enough people are saying there's a bad smell, usually its cause something is rotten. It's easy to say oh i made a mistake, we've all made them, i am not denying that its possible, but a seasoned tourney player who knows the rules inside and out, not triple checking a list for points errors ... i call shenanigans. and if somehow it does happen? that player should take a loss for every game played with the illegal list. no ifs and's or butts. And before anyone goes falling on their swords or having kittens about me speaking my mind, this is just my opinion, take it as such.

How do you handle cheating at 40k events?

I try not to get caught.

I don't play tournament games for just this reason. I really like playing 40k but i don't want to play games where winning is so important i have to worry about my opponents honestly. I think the TO should have been more on top of this guy for going over his points. When it comes to a tournament all the players should have their lists and rules knowledge at high levels. I would expect an opponent to have triple checked his list before showing up.

When I arrive at an event, I bring a level of respect to my fellow gamers that shows that I acknowledge the time and effort they have put into their models, lists, and understanding of the game and their codex. Not to mention the 8 weekend hours they are spending there and the entry fee. This includes the following, which seem painfully obvious to me:

-don't make your opponent police your play. This is an easy way to suck all the enjoyment out of a game. No one wants to have to watch their opponent like a hawk, it's not fair or fun if you're taking indiscretions and making them stop you. I've come across a few players that appear to think this is an aspect of the game. Conversely, my favorite opponents are the guys I know I dont have to hover over. It sucks that there are people in this thread saying this is why they don't go to tournaments. Most people going won't win, yet still show up for the fun and games.

-Know your codex. The day of an event is not the time to experiment with a new list you're unfamiliar with. That's what garage games and pickup games are for. When you are reading and playtesting, pay special attention to restrictions on your abilities that an opponent inexperienced with your codex wouldn't know. i.e. Fateweaver’s psychic ability restrictions, or a Tau Ethereal always giving an additional VP, or not being able to assault from a portal glyph. These are the easiest ones to fudge, and when I find out after the fact that I've been bamboozled on them it particularly piques my ire.

-even if the event doesn't have a paint requirement, all of my models at a MINIMUM are fully built and on bases. All wargear is WYSIWYG. All conversions are explained, as well as being unique and done for aesthetics not proxies. Having Pink horrors count as cultists and squats count for Pink horrors and empty bases counting for models is absolutely acceptable in friendly games and test games, but when you show up to an event with an army like this is a big F U to people spending their time and money to make sure their stuff is tight.

-be sure you understand the rules of the event and that your list is legal within the parameters. We all have to be playing the same game here with the same rules. If you show up with Forge World at a non-FW event should your opponents be understanding and just let you play anyhow? Same principle goes for points and FOC restrictions. If your list is outside the points or FOC restrictions, it shows you don't respect people's time enough to put forth even a minimal effort. This goes back to playtesting as well. Have someone else look over your list ahead of time and give you feedback as well as check your work. I personally learn things this way from friends and fellow players.
No individual indiscretions should ever result in an outright ban/86/blacklist from an event. If I heard a player was asked not to come back I would assume the person exhibited a pattern of misbehavior over a longer period of time. Especially in an established event with experienced TOs.

Everyone has some group of people that may or may not like them- I think the saying "haters gonna hate" is appropriate.

Believe it or not, I score well on sports in many events and venues "in and out of games" as you put it and there are plenty of people I play that enjoy their games with me and look forward to playing me (even at that store).

That being the case, it seems more like an issue of game parlor politics than anything else. People are entitled to think what they will and that's ok, but to assume someone was cheating on purpose without proof but hearsay is not cool.

Also, to point out the facts again, my list was only 5 points over and only because I misread a 15 point item as a 10 point one. Mistakes happen, nobody is perfect. Again, I would have been happy to abide by any ruling the TO would have given or player suggested-I'm not trying to dodge responsibility for my list being over points but it happened. The fact that a mutually agreeable sollution was reached and we moved on should have ended the matter but only after I won the event did the OP choose to make a big deal about it.

Mort: you made this thread about you, congrats on the hijack, so complaining about hearsay makes no sense.

Acrimonious wrote:
All wargear is WYSIWYG.

Honestly the only wargear people want or need WYSIWYG is the primary weapons of a model - the little upgrades are often pointless to model for several reasons:

1) There is no part on the sprue to denote them officially

2) They are tiny, most players will not notice grenades or scopes on their opponents models nor see them as anything more than decoration or part of the model itself

3) Because of the points structure most people are not going to own one single setup of models for each possible wargear setup in the codex; keeping in mind that new things come and old things go as well.

So most of the time its just the weapons that you need to keep clearly identified. Writing a good clear army list is also very important and for any formal match or tourney you should have an army list (heck most proper tourneys require you to have them). If you've time an extra one for your opponent to have during the match also helps.
Heck in the fantasy games there are often no wargear options in the sprue, even for command units, so most of the models are only showing their main weapon as the WYSIWYG.

So in the end wargear is nice to have fully represented, but it shouldn't be enforced anywhere as its just impractical in the real world where we have time and budget constraints (not to mention can only carry so many models).



As for cheaters, as said before by several people, most cheats are just a result of accidents. Warhammer 40K and Warhammer are complicated games - in fact they are very complicated games. This is further compounded by having a huge army roster, variable options for most units and also regular updates that change the core operation and stats of the rules. So its very easy for players new and old to mix things up; to remember the rule wrongly or use one from years back.
Codex and Rule book - plus any FAQ from the GW website help to avoid most problems and no player should get shirty if they have to find things in the books or are called out to search - its just part of the nature of this type of game.

Not really encountered any cheating much myself; most common "cheat" is people being lazy about movement of models on the tabletop - sometimes getting an extra bit here and there because they've moved casually. It's generally not a huge deal, and often easy to correct by simply asking to check distances or even just saying lets take this game at a slower pace (movement is one turn where people try to blaze through it, esp if they've a lot of models on the table -and going fast increases the chance for errors).

This is a terrible thread.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
This is a terrible thread.

I happen to agree, I didn't intend to start this and I'm bummed it turned out this way. Maybe I'll try again with a different approach in a few months

Stop throwing stones if you feel that way.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Stop throwing stones if you feel that way.

Oh, no, man. It's Mortetvie. Acrimonious brought up a legit topic, and Mortetvie inserted himself in it by outting himself. None of the UK or Australia or International posters would've had any idea who was being discussed if he'd not posted.

There *are* some parlor politics going on, locally, but they were *not* in this thread, until Mortetvie posted.
- - - - - - -
(and kids, please read the following in mind that my tone is kind, absent of malice, and hoping to put flames out. I'm being nice here, trying to! )

C'mon, Mortetvie, time to let it go; (sincerely, with no malice, I type) I think you have given a good faith (no pun intended) effort to salvage your reputation / your good name or To Save Face. Whichever phrase fits best.

IMHO, I think you've fanned flames that otherwise, might've smoldered out on their own, as poster bloodfist1 more-or-less stated. Besides, reputations are not salvaged by discussion. They're repaired in silence, quietly, over time, by actions, by showing how you play. As you will continue to play in tourneys, may I humbly suggest aiming, not for 1st place, but BestSports? Try a few times.

I've garnered my few Sportsman Wins, not purposely, but possibly by doing a lot of:

a. 5.5 or 5.78 inch measures. I move the model up to 6, and then pull it back a tad.

b. Pretty much every disagreement / argument (by "argument" I mean, "Hey, man, I don't think you have LoS/range" or "I don't think the Scatter is safe, I think you have Mishapped" ) - let your opponent get the call. Every time. These deferrals have probably cost me a game or two, but not likely, I have a lousy tourney record, because I make terrible decisions during games.

These shouldn't affect you too much though, as you're really darn good at this game.

c. Forgetting rolls/options and going back for them. I don't. Usually it's Psy-powers, if you make this mistake like I do (I'll bet you don't forget though), I don't (usually) go back after moving and try to cast Guide/JoWW. Battle Focus? Yeah, I forget half the time to do it and most opponents offer to let me go back and hop my Warp Spiders or Dire Avengers after I've gone on to another unit. I decline (most of the time) and own my responsibility for it.

d. When your opponent forgets *his* rolls/options and gripes about wanting to go "back" for that Move, Run, BattleFocus, PSy-power ... ? Let 'em.

Now, I'm not saying that you don't already do every one of these, having never played you. And oddly, I'm not *quite* talking about how you play the game, instead, I'm talking about your reputation, and reputation repair, which is what you've turned this thread into. Had you not posted, several times, *I* would not be writing this now.

Again, reputations are not made, nor salvaged through *that* person's testimony. The subject of a (bad) reputation has the least possible ability to change His/Hers to the positive through talk. If you want to repair your reputation, I humbly, and kindly suggest, do so, only through your actions at the tables.

 mortetvie wrote:

Believe it or not, I score well on sports in many events and venues

Award paper, or it didn't happen. Lol

I have put this thread on my IGNORE list.

I haven't seen any active cheating where I play, and people are pretty good about ensuring their lists are legal because it has always been an automatic DQ in a tourny to have an illegal list.

Yes people make mistakes, however there are two senerios as I see it, if it is a friendly game then you can ether correct it on the spot or just run with it, after all it is a FRIENDLY game and winning shouldn't be the end all and be all.

However if it is a tourny then the end goal actually is to win, sure there are people who go just for the fun of it however I doubt there are many who play to lose. In this case it is absolutely fair to DQ someone for an illegal list, even if it is a mistake. You had the time to double check your list, its not something you should scribble the night before. Maybe you like to live dangerously, however there are consequences for such actions.

In closing, getting DQ'ed for a simple mistake may seem a little harsh, but that player will most certainly be rechecking his list next time.

 Kelly502 wrote:
Honestly, I tried not to think about the cheating while I was at the event, actually the event helped me forget. Eventually I did divorce her though...

+1 internets to you, good sir. First Exalt is on me.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I have put this thread on my IGNORE list.

Oh good so you can stop posting

Acrimonious wrote:

This gentleman is not a bad player by any means, just a bit of a cur. He has won several small tournaments and a GT. He was running a cut-throat list and had a very shrewd grasp of the game. This made his indiscretions all the more advantageous.

.....

Please don’t degrade the thread by calling people out or slinging mud. That is not the intention of this post. I would like to hear honest opinions and suggestions on how we can keep the game cut-throat without crossing the line into outright cheating. Thanks.

...

Illegal list is an immediate disqualification for the current game, and reversal of any previous victories. (I check the army lists while people are playing, and in a large event, it might be the second or third round before I finish.) The list can be stripped of any illegal selections and any remaining games can still be played, however.

If I feel like someone is deliberately cheating, it's immediate expulsion from the event.

What qualifies 'feels like cheating' ?

Brothererekose wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Stop throwing stones if you feel that way.

Oh, no, man. It's Mortetvie. Acrimonious brought up a legit topic, and Mortetvie inserted himself in it by outting himself. None of the UK or Australia or International posters would've had any idea who was being discussed if he'd not posted.

There *are* some parlor politics going on, locally, but they were *not* in this thread, until Mortetvie posted.

When you start a thread about cheating with "'anonymous' person is a cur and this is what he did which was totally cheating" and give incorrect facts/information about the matter, you could logically consider that post a stone being slung with game parlor politics being brought up as well. In reality, the initial post started off and was framed around an insult and "game parlor politics" in a public manner. Therefore, it was only fitting for me to respond in a public manner as well. Regardless of who may or may not know what was up, It was still obvious to enough people that the OP was actually talking about me and therefore he did in fact "out me" as you say. Any player in a similar scenario should have every opportunity to clarify the matter and my replies were to serve that purpose.

As others have pointed out, my replies were polite and to the point. I still harbor not ill will towards the OP but wish he would have brought things up sooner rather than wait until the event was wrapped up and such. After all, if the appropriate action is to get a TO involved and the person who had a list over points lose that game-the OP completely failed to facilitate this solution and should have just mentioned it as an "fyi" to the TO and player involved and learn for the future rather than make such a big deal about it.

I Agree with Mortetvie, in the fact he should be allowed to give his side of the story and explain any misgivings you seem to harbour against him. He is not trying to Hi-Jack the thread, he wanted to ask what/why you think he did so bad to justify such a sour mood against him (Cur: Definition -a contemptible man). It doesn't matter that you didn't mention his name, HE knew you where talking about him and was understandably unset, yet has responded with nothing but polite and eloquent posts that said if it was such a big problem you should of made a bigger deal rather then simply talking about him behind his back.

Your Bias shows against him by use of the words 'Cut-Throat list', your in a tournament, why on earth would you expect nice ones? Then you have bloodfist taking the 'He said, She said' route which doesn't help anyone. Then earlier you say how when he WAS nice to you (Letting you do stuff you forgot) you almost took it condescendingly saying he already had the game, him being nice meant nothing. Which doesn't make sense. Bad press/reputation is a horrible thing to inflict on someone unjustly, as it colours other peoples view on them without knowing them. So I think you should apologies for 'slinging mud' at him and accept his apology that he is sorry for anything he did wrong, it was not intentional. Then you could get back to the real topic.

I think cheating should have no hard fast rules, because its simply to varied a field to have blanket rules. Local tourney and your 2pts over and you already played a game? talk it over, hopefully lose 2pts and be fine, instant expulsion isn't the way. Loaded Dice, expulsion. Moving to far? depends on how often, but the player should be able to handle it by watching closely. Rules query? Check rulebook or relevant FAQ, then ask TO if no compromise can be made.

Far be it from me to abstain from a scuffle!

Mort - three local guys are calling you out as TFG at this point. I've met Acrimonious and Bloodfist on several occasions and they've never been anything but super cool guys. I like them both.

I've never met you and don't even know who you are, but, all I can say is that you may want to re-evaluate your standing within the local community and take steps to repair your reputation, whether it's deserved or not. You've got three guys on this thread now saying that you may not be the most awesome guy to game with.

That's my subjective evaluation of the situation.

And my objective evaluation? Well, since you asked -

You flat out should have forfeited your winnings once it was discovered that you won game one with a list that was over the points limit. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. That you did not man up and forfeit speaks to your character.

Yep, your replies are "polite and to the point". However, to be honest, it rings hollow and comes across as disingenuous since you really have not taken any responsibility whatsoever for objectively (and subjectively) unsportsmanlike conduct.

 mortetvie wrote:

Brothererekose wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Stop throwing stones if you feel that way.

Oh, no, man. It's Mortetvie. Acrimonious brought up a legit topic, and Mortetvie inserted himself in it by outting himself. None of the UK or Australia or International posters would've had any idea who was being discussed if he'd not posted.

There *are* some parlor politics going on, locally, but they were *not* in this thread, until Mortetvie posted.

When you start a thread about cheating with "'anonymous' person is a cur and this is what he did which was totally cheating" and give incorrect facts/information about the matter, you could logically consider that post a stone being slung with game parlor politics being brought up as well. In reality, the initial post started off and was framed around an insult and "game parlor politics" in a public manner. Therefore, it was only fitting for me to respond in a public manner as well. Regardless of who may or may not know what was up, It was still obvious to enough people that the OP was actually talking about me and therefore he did in fact "out me" as you say. Any player in a similar scenario should have every opportunity to clarify the matter and my replies were to serve that purpose.

As others have pointed out, my replies were polite and to the point. I still harbor not ill will towards the OP but wish he would have brought things up sooner rather than wait until the event was wrapped up and such. After all, if the appropriate action is to get a TO involved and the person who had a list over points lose that game-the OP completely failed to facilitate this solution and should have just mentioned it as an "fyi" to the TO and player involved and learn for the future rather than make such a big deal about it.

How can you be outed amongst people who already know you? Your anonymity amongst the locals is hard to preserve unless you're attending tourneys with a marine helmet on. Your internet anonymity however, was respectfully preserved. And why must the player who you played the illegal list against offer you to forfeit the game? Isn't that on you as an honest player? I myself would not feel pumped about taking a tourney with a game sullied by a points issue under my belt. Especially a tourney in our scene, which in my experience is really full of some of the nicest, most courteous players you could hope for. I'd be bummed out if that lot was calling me out.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
What qualifies 'feels like cheating' ?

So much for putting the thread on you ignore list.