Hey all here is pages to help with this question.

Skyfire on page 42 (BRB) basically says if you have the skyfire SR you can use your normal BS to fire at flyers/skimmers and FMC, while you have to make snap shots at anything else.

"Heavy" Page (51) (BRB) type weapon states that if you move it you have to snap shot.

Snap shot Page (13) (BRB) that your shots count as BS 1 when making snap shots.

So if you have a Missile Launcher with Flakk missiles and for what ever reason you move or were counted as moving in the movement phase, would you be able to fire at a flyer/skimmer/FMC at normal BS if you used the skyfire missile, or would you have to snap shot?

My present interpretation is that with the missile launcher you would be able to use your normal BS when firing Skyfire even if you moved, because: if you have to Snap shot your BS is counted as 1 but your normal BS is Still 3/4/5...ect

A possible counter argument, is that "counted as" means that you are BS 1. The criticism to this counter is that while you are counted as BS 1 you are still BS 3/4/5..ect and that your normal BS is not actually lower.

So would you use your modified BS (Counted as) or your Normal BS?

"If a model carrying a Heavy weapon moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots."

The Skyfire rule only states that you may fire at normal BS at Flyers/Skimmers/FMC, it does not allow you to change the BS of a Snap Shot.

so then your saying that "heavy changes your normal BS from 3/4/5...ect to 1?

So then Skyfire can be taken to mean the Normal "Modified" BS and not the normal BS of the model. I have not found anything to back that up.

Skyfire does not state that you change the BS of anything, it states that you use your normal BS. So as I see it if a model is normally BS 6 and has to snap shot, then its normally BS 6 is counted as BS 1 (which is not its normal BS) That is the Snap shot rule.

Now Skyfire which only cares about the normal BS of the shooter, does not care about what the BS counts As only what the normal BS is.

"RAW" Heavy weapons with Skyfire Special rule can move and shoot skyfire at normal BS. I still cannot find anything in the FAQ's or BRB that would lead me to believe other wise.

You're firing snap shots, snap shots are at BS 1, Skyfire does not grant you permission to modify the BS of a Snap Shot.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
so then your saying that "heavy changes your normal BS from 3/4/5...ect to 1?

So then Skyfire can be taken to mean the Normal "Modified" BS and not the normal BS of the model. I have not found anything to back that up.

Skyfire does not state that you change the BS of anything, it states that you use your normal BS. So as I see it if a model is normally BS 6 and has to snap shot, then its normally BS 6 is counted as BS 1 (which is not its normal BS) That is the Snap shot rule.

Now Skyfire which only cares about the normal BS of the shooter, does not care about what the BS counts As only what the normal BS is.

"RAW" Heavy weapons with Skyfire Special rule can move and shoot skyfire at normal BS. I still cannot find anything in the FAQ's or BRB that would lead me to believe other wise.

A snap shot is made at BS1, and since the Heavy weapon having moved can only fire snap shots then they must fire as BS1.

By the writing of the Heavy rule previously quoted if they may ONLY fire as snapshots if having moved, then if the shot isnt a snap shot (and not BS1) then they may not fire it.

As above. I think its pretty clear and there isn't really an argument at all. It also makes sense if you apply simple logic rather than attempting to bend rules for benefit. The rule is quite clear, a model carrying a heavy weapon that moves can only fire snap shots. There is no exceptions, unless of course you have a rule like relentless - of which clearly states you can fire heavy weapons as if stationary. Skyfire has no such inclusion.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
so then your saying that "heavy changes your normal BS from 3/4/5...ect to 1?

So then Skyfire can be taken to mean the Normal "Modified" BS and not the normal BS of the model. I have not found anything to back that up.

Skyfire does not state that you change the BS of anything, it states that you use your normal BS. So as I see it if a model is normally BS 6 and has to snap shot, then its normally BS 6 is counted as BS 1 (which is not its normal BS) That is the Snap shot rule.

Now Skyfire which only cares about the normal BS of the shooter, does not care about what the BS counts As only what the normal BS is.

"RAW" Heavy weapons with Skyfire Special rule can move and shoot skyfire at normal BS. I still cannot find anything in the FAQ's or BRB that would lead me to believe other wise.

Moving forces Snap Shots.
Shooting at a Flyer forces Snap Shots.
Snap Shots cannot be modified.
Skyfire lifts one of these restrictions. The other is still in place meaning you fire Snap Shots.

So then you do not use the normal BS of the firing unit that is skying firing, and you use the modified BS of the firing unit, this is what you are all saying.

So consider the fact that if a model is BS 4 normally (without modifiers), and that anything that modifies the BS will either add to or subtract from the normal BS. Failing a blind check modifies the BS to 1, snap shooting modifies the BS to 1, using a Siguma modifies the BS to 5, and all of these modified BS's but are not the normal BS.

So then there is a issue between what counts as the BS at the time of firing and what the normal BS is. That's the issue.

Snapshots are a type of shot, and in this case the only type this model can perform when shooting.

Snapshots are completed at BS1, this is a rule of snapshots.

At this time the model may only perform a single time of shot having moved. This type is a snapshot, a snapshot is BS1.

The models BS is irrelevant in this case, the snapshot overrides this.

BS1 is the normal BS used by a model firing a heavy weapon after moving.

The answer is on page 81, under hard to hit it makes it clear that shot fired at a zooming flyer by a model or weapon with the skyfire rule are not snap shots. The FAQ tells us that you cannot change the ballistic skill of a snap shot. This is a clarification that skyfire does not change the ballistic skill either, it makes the shot not a snap shot. Heavy weapons can only make snap shots if they model has moved. Trying to fire a heavy snap shot weapon at a flyer results in you not firing a snap shot at the flyer and the heavy rule prohibits this behavior.

DJGietzen: Are you saying that the Skyfire rule would prevent the unit from snap firing at the flyer?

This has nothing to do with the Hard to Hit Rule as "Hard to Hit" points you back to both the "Snap Shot" general rule and the "Skyfire" special rule. As it simply states that you are firing snap shots unless you have the skyfire rule nothing else.

Now that we are on rules though I might as well point out that "Snap Shot" is a general rule, where as "Skyfire" is a special rule, and that as per the BRB Special rules bend, break, or flat out ignore general rules. This would give "Skyfire" the permission to let a heavy weapon that moved, fire at a Flyer/FMC/skimmer at normal BS.

This is the criticism as I have seen it so far of my argument: Snap shots count as BS 1 when firing in overwatch,at a model with the "Hard to Hit" general rule, or as a heavy weapon that moved in the movement phase. That the normal BS of a snap firing model is BS 1. That nothing is allowed to modify the Snap Shot in anyway. Skyfire is not given permission to modify the BS of a Snap shot. Therefore a heavy weapon that moved even if it has the skyfire special rule still fires at BS 1. That is the Criticism so far or did I miss something?

Here is my criticism of this criticism.

Snap shots count as BS 1 when firing in overwatch, at Models with the Hard to Hit rule, and if you moved as a heavy weapon. The Snap Shot BS 1 as per the FAQ cannot be modified by any special rule what so ever, i. e.. if you have a Signum you cannot change the BS 1 into a BS 2 due to the wargear. So this should end the my argument right there correct? It does not, and in fact it only causes more issues. As per the FAQ no Special rule can ever Modify the BS 1 of a Snap Shot, And Skyfire is a special rule, meaning that either Skyfire has no effect and will never let you fire at normal BS if you have to Snap shot with a weapon or model with this Special rule, or that Skyfire does not modify the BS of the shot at all, and only instructs the player as to which BS to use when firing it. The Skyfire Special rule lets a model or a model firing a weapon with Skyfire use its normal BS when firing at Flyers/FMC/Skimmers, if we apply the above information to this then the normal BS when firing at a flyer/FMC is BS 1 because of the Hard to Hit rule and the Snap shot FAQ, meaning that skyfire is still shooting at BS 1 and not BS 3/4/5...ect. If we come to the conclusion that the Normal BS of a Model having to fire "Snap Shots" is BS 1 then the "Skyfire" special rule does nothing and has no effect what so ever.

Here is my argument:

Skyfire explicitly states "Normal Ballistic Skill", not current ballistic skill, not modified ballistic skill, not counts as ballistic skill, but normal ballistic skill. What is the normal BS of a Model? The Normal BS of a Model is found on its Stat Line, the only way for this stat to change value is to buy an up grade that will permanently alter the value before the game starts (Tomb Blades w Neblou Scopes) (BS 4) to (BS 5) and while in game BS 5 is the normal BS for this unit. When firing Snap Shots the BS of 5 is modified to BS 1, but the BS is not permanently changed, thus the Normal BS of the Upgraded Tomb Blades is BS 5 and the Modified BS for Snap Shooting is BS 1. If we conclude that the Normal BS of a model is the BS found in the Stat line for the model plus any permanent changes caused by upgrades to the model, then the Skyfire Special rule does in fact work, as it does not Modify the BS but simply tells you to use your normal BS instead of the Modified Snap Shot BS.

Thus with all of that stated. A heavy weapon with Skyfire firing at a Flyer/Skimmer/FMC as per the Skyfire Special rule will use the models Normal BS and not the Modified Snap Shot BS.

Did I miss anything?

If the snap shot rules said it dropped your BS to 1, you would make sense. What the Snap Shot rules do is make you fire a certain type of shot, and the normal ballistic skill of that shot is 1.

Skyfire doens't allow you to override the snap shooting restrictions which have occured from rules outside what is stated.

The modification for moving heavy still exists at the time of Skyfire, and your 'normal' BS still includes that modification.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
DJGietzen: Are you saying that the Skyfire rule would prevent the unit from snap firing at the flyer?

I'm saying the models with the skyfire rule are not making snap shots when firing at a flyer. A model that moved can ONLY fire snap shots with a heavy weapon*. You cannot choose to fire snap shots and skyfire prevents you from firing snap shots at flyers so you can't move and fire a heavy weapon at a flyer. You have no permision to not fire snap shots with your heavy weapon after moving.

*baring any special rules that allow you to fire non-snap shots after moving with a heavy weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Did I miss anything?

Skyfire does not modify the balistic skill of your snap shots. It allows you to fire normal shots instead of snap shots at a zooming flyer.

DJ - skyfire does indeed let you still end up firing snapshots, if something else forces you to fire snapshots.

An Evading flyer still has the skyfire rule, but would snapshot against another flyer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DJ - skyfire does indeed let you still end up firing snapshots, if something else forces you to fire snapshots.

An Evading flyer still has the skyfire rule, but would snapshot against another flyer.

Page and Paragraph please.

A model that has moved can ONLY fire as snap-shots when firing a heavy weapon.
Shots resolved against a zooming flyer are always snap-shots unless the shooter has the skyfire special rule.
Skyfire only gets rid of one cause of snap-shots

 DJGietzen wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
DJGietzen: Are you saying that the Skyfire rule would prevent the unit from snap firing at the flyer?

I'm saying the models with the skyfire rule are not making snap shots when firing at a flyer. A model that moved can ONLY fire snap shots with a heavy weapon*. You cannot choose to fire snap shots and skyfire prevents you from firing snap shots at flyers so you can't move and fire a heavy weapon at a flyer. You have no permision to not fire snap shots with your heavy weapon after moving.

*baring any special rules that allow you to fire non-snap shots after moving with a heavy weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Did I miss anything?

Skyfire does not modify the balistic skill of your snap shots. It allows you to fire normal shots instead of snap shots at a zooming flyer.

So if I understand you, A snap shot with skyfire is resolved as a normal BS shot if fired at at a flyer because of the SKyfire rule, and the Skyfire rule does not care about the reason why the BS of the shot is modified only what the normal BS of the model is. At the same time Skyfire does care about the modified BS of the model if the model is having to fire a snap shot for any reason.

That is paradoxical logic.

And here is the proof.

At all times models are required to fire snap shots at flying targets. Which means that when you first target a flyer you are making snap shots and your normal BS is modified to BS 1. If and only if there is a weapon in the unit with the Skyfire rule will this rule take effect, at which point the model with Skyfire is allowed to use its normal BS instead of the modified BS of 1 to fire at the flyer.

meaning.

1: You target the flyer, and your BS is modified to 1 as per the snap shot rule.
2: Then you check to see if Skyfire is on any of the models making the shooting attack.
3: If skyfire is present then the model/s with Skyfire can use their normal BS for those shots and ignore the Modified BS 1 from the Snap shot rule.
3: you resolve your shooting as per both the Skyfire and Snap Shot rules.

No matter how you look at it, you check for the Skyfire Special Rule after your BS is modified by the Snap shot rule, meaning that what you are saying is, your normal BS for shooting at any flyer is 1 and not what is stated on the models stat-line. (This is the Logic being presented) Thus meaning that shooting attacks made with Skyfire are hitting at BS 1 and not 3/4/5...ect. Because the normal BS of the model shooting is modified to BS 1 before Skyfire is checked for.

If Skyfire cares about what the Modified BS of the shooting Model is, then it must care at all times and in every situation, unless specifically stated otherwise, by some rule. (Which has yet to be stated)
If Skyfire does not care about the Modified BS of the firing model, and only cares about the normal BS of the firing model, then this too must not care at all times and in every situation, unless specifically stated otherwise by a rule. (Which no one has stated yet)

The Snap Shot rule says nothing about it over riding Skyfire in any way, shape, or form, in fact quite the opposite is true, where Skyfire over rides the Snap shot rule

 BLADERIKER wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DJ - skyfire does indeed let you still end up firing snapshots, if something else forces you to fire snapshots.

An Evading flyer still has the skyfire rule, but would snapshot against another flyer.

Page and Paragraph please.

For what? That being required to fire snapshots due to X is not lifted by something letting you not fire snapshots due to Y?

It's the exact same argument as assaulting from Reserve from a vehicle with the Assault rule.

You can't assault because:
1). Unit arrived from Reserve,
2). Can't assault out of a Transport.

Assault vehicle removes restriction 2). but not restriction 1).
So the unit still cannot assault.
(A later FAQ clarified this)

Unit is Snap Shooting because:
1). Moved with a Heavy Weapons
2). Shooting a Flyer

Again Skyfire removes restriction 2). but not restriction 1).

Agreed with Grendel. You can ignore the Snapshot requirement as a result of Skyfire when shooting at the flyer. However, skyfire does not remove the restriction on Heavy Weapons and their rules.

Page 51: When shooting, a model with a Heavy weapon shoots the number of times indicated. If a model moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots (see page 13 for details) Remember wthat weapons with the Blast special rule cannont fire Snap Shots. Models that shoot with Heavy weapons in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing Assault Phase.

Page 53: Chart Heavy Weapons (Firer Cannot Assault) Shows nifty picture of range and Stationary vs. Moving. Arrow shows for Moving Maximum range of weapon, but fire as a snap shot. Little box next to it If a model with a Heavy weapon remains Stationary, it can fire the number of times indicated (at his normal ballistic skill) up to the maximum range of the weapon. If the firer moved, the shot will only hit on a 6, as it is a Snap Shot (fired at Ballistic Skill 1)

Page 13: Snap Shots : Under certain circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots - Opportunistic bursts of fire 'snapped' off in the general direction of the target. The most comon occurence of a Snap Shot is when a model with a Heavy weapon, such as a heavy bolter, moves and shoots in the same turn (see page 51 for more on heavy weapons). If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, then it's Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

Page 49: Hard to Hit A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule. (See Page 42).

Page 81: Hard to Hit Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42).


Page 32: Second Paragrah: Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a Special Rule.

Page 42: Sky Fire A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, uses its Normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor Special Rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets.

Page 57: Flakk Missile - Heavy 1, Skyfire


The Weapon itself has both the Heavy Rule and the Skyfire Rule. You must use both rules when firing the weapon. For instance were you to target the Flakk Missile at something other than a Flyer, Flying Monstrous Creature or Skimmer it would be treated as a snap shot due to not having the Interceptor Special Rule. Or per the Heavy Rule you would not be able to charge in the following Assault Phase if you fire the Weapon.

Both rules are exclusive to themselves and independent of each other Skyfire does not change the rules and requirements of Heavy and Heavy can't change the rules and requirements of Skyfire. This does not mean that Skyfire ignores rules and situations cause by Heavy. Per the Flying Monstrous Creature and Flyer Sections you are allowed to fire at Normal BS against them with the Skyfire Special Rule. Per the Heavy Weapon rule, which does not mention a target, you are forced to fire the weapon as a snap shot if you move. Not because you are shooting at a flyer, but because you moved.

So there are two situations causing you to Snap Shot
1) You are shooting at a flyer
2) You moved with a Heavy Weapon

The Skyfire Rule allows you to shoot at normal Ballistic Skill at a Flyer due to it's special rule wording. Negating Situation 1.
The Heavy rule forces you to snap shoot, as a result of movement.

Skyfire is in regards to the situation of shooting at a flyer and thus alters the rules within those flyer sections stating you must make a Snap Shot when shooting at them. It does not reference within itself the Heavy Rule, which is what is Forcing you to Snap Shoot, and it does not reference a change to the snap shooting rules, so it can't change that rule.

 Bobaram wrote:
Agreed with Grendel. You can ignore the Snapshot requirement as a result of Skyfire when shooting at the flyer. However, skyfire does not remove the restriction on Heavy Weapons and their rules.

Page 51: When shooting, a model with a Heavy weapon shoots the number of times indicated. If a model moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots (see page 13 for details) Remember wthat weapons with the Blast special rule cannont fire Snap Shots. Models that shoot with Heavy weapons in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing Assault Phase.

Page 53: Chart Heavy Weapons (Firer Cannot Assault) Shows nifty picture of range and Stationary vs. Moving. Arrow shows for Moving Maximum range of weapon, but fire as a snap shot. Little box next to it If a model with a Heavy weapon remains Stationary, it can fire the number of times indicated (at his normal ballistic skill) up to the maximum range of the weapon. If the firer moved, the shot will only hit on a 6, as it is a Snap Shot (fired at Ballistic Skill 1)

Page 13: Snap Shots : Under certain circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots - Opportunistic bursts of fire 'snapped' off in the general direction of the target. The most comon occurence of a Snap Shot is when a model with a Heavy weapon, such as a heavy bolter, moves and shoots in the same turn (see page 51 for more on heavy weapons). If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, then it's Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

Page 49: Hard to Hit A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule. (See Page 42).

Page 81: Hard to Hit Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42).


Page 32: Second Paragrah: Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a Special Rule.

Page 42: Sky Fire A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, uses its Normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor Special Rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets.

Page 57: Flakk Missile - Heavy 1, Skyfire


The Weapon itself has both the Heavy Rule and the Skyfire Rule. You must use both rules when firing the weapon. For instance were you to target the Flakk Missile at something other than a Flyer, Flying Monstrous Creature or Skimmer it would be treated as a snap shot due to not having the Interceptor Special Rule. Or per the Heavy Rule you would not be able to charge in the following Assault Phase if you fire the Weapon.

Both rules are exclusive to themselves and independent of each other Skyfire does not change the rules and requirements of Heavy and Heavy can't change the rules and requirements of Skyfire. This does not mean that Skyfire ignores rules and situations cause by Heavy. Per the Flying Monstrous Creature and Flyer Sections you are allowed to fire at Normal BS against them with the Skyfire Special Rule. Per the Heavy Weapon rule, which does not mention a target, you are forced to fire the weapon as a snap shot if you move. Not because you are shooting at a flyer, but because you moved.

So there are two situations causing you to Snap Shot
1) You are shooting at a flyer
2) You moved with a Heavy Weapon

The Skyfire Rule allows you to shoot at normal Ballistic Skill at a Flyer due to it's special rule wording. Negating Situation 1.
The Heavy rule forces you to snap shoot, as a result of movement.

Skyfire is in regards to the situation of shooting at a flyer and thus alters the rules within those flyer sections stating you must make a Snap Shot when shoot at them. It does not reference within itself the Heavy Rule, which is what is Forcing you to Snap Shoot, and it does not reference a change to the snap shooting rules, so it can't change that rule.

As you have already posted all the rules I will point out that the "Heavy" Rule is a general rule and thus can be broken by the Skyfire Special Rule.

Heavy only states that if you move you fire snap shots, and that is the only restriction that heavy gives.

Hard to Hit also references Snap shots as the only way to fire at a flyer.

No where in the snap shot rule as written does it state that you can ignore or disregard the Skyfire Special rule under certain circumstances.

No where on the Movement chart does it show a Weapon with Skyfire and how movement effects it.

No where in the skyfire rule as written does it state that it only ignores those snap shots caused by shooting at a flyer and no other situations, it only states that you use your normal BS to fire at Flyers/FMCs/Skimmers. Also the "Heavy", "Hard to Hit", and "Snap shot" general rules as written state nothing about discounting or ignoring the Skyfire Special rule in anyway.

"Snap Shot" clearly states that if you are forced to make snap shots instead of shooting normally then you are BS 1. Meaning that if you are forced to make snap shots you are not shooting normally, and in the case of moving and "Heavy", shooting at a flying model, you are not shooting at your normal BS. Where as the Skyfire Special Rule explicitly states you use your normal BS when Firing/Shooting at Flyers/FMCs/skimmers.

The Skyfire Special Rule as written breaks all rules that restrict your BS when shooting at Flyers/FMCs/ Skimmers.

And as convoluted as that subject is, this is not the same as assaulting from a transport arriving from reserves, which is strictly forbidden as you cannot even disembark from a transport arriving from reserves as you have moved more than 6 in". This is about a Special Rule overriding sever general rules at once, which it is more than capable of doing as Special rules break General rules.

By all means quote me in the FAQ's and in the Rules where Snap shots as a rule is allowed to disregard the Skyfire Special Rule in if you move. Show me where I am wrong, but do not simply use a logical fallacy or adding to rules as written to prove your point.

As the Rules are written you can move a weapon with the "Heavy" Type and while firing and are force to Snap fire, if you have the Skyfire Special Rule and are firing at a Flyer/Skimmer/FMC, you use your normal BS.

Show me how the written Rules do not state that.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
As you have already posted all the rules I will point out that the "Heavy" Rule is a general rule and thus can be broken by the Skyfire Special Rule.

But only if Skyfire specifies that. There's no conflict here. Skyfire is allowing the model to fire at his normal BS and nothing is stopping it.
The normal BS for a model firing a heavy weapon when moving is 1.

As has been stated once a heavy weapon has moved short of it having a rule like relentless it will only be allowed to fire snap shots. A model that for any reason can only fire snap shots is making an illegal action if it does anything else so trying to shoot at anything other then bs 1 against the flyers is in violation of the game. All that the skyfire rule does is let you ignore the normal condition of all shooting at a flyer is snap shots unless by a model with skyfire but if said skyfire model is already forbidden from doing anything but snap shots then it can still only snap fire.

I think Grendel had the best explination here, if you skyfire overrides heavy restrictions then I can also deepstrike a skimmer in and assualt you strait away and all sorts of game breaking fun.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
As you have already posted all the rules I will point out that the "Heavy" Rule is a general rule and thus can be broken by the Skyfire Special Rule.

But only if Skyfire specifies that. There's no conflict here. Skyfire is allowing the model to fire at his normal BS and nothing is stopping it.
The normal BS for a model firing a heavy weapon when moving is 1.

No it is not, go back and read the Snap Shot rule.

A model with the "Heavy" Rule is forced to fire snap shots, when moving.

Snap Shots states, that a snap shot forces the model to use BS 1 instead of its normal BS.

Thus the BS 1 from the Snap Shot is never the normal BS of the any model having to fire a snap shot.

Skyfire instructs you to use your normal BS when firing at Flyers?FMCs/Skimmers, nothing more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
It's the exact same argument as assaulting from Reserve from a vehicle with the Assault rule.

You can't assault because:
1). Unit arrived from Reserve,
2). Can't assault out of a Transport.

Assault vehicle removes restriction 2). but not restriction 1).
So the unit still cannot assault.
(A later FAQ clarified this)

Unit is Snap Shooting because:
1). Moved with a Heavy Weapons
2). Shooting a Flyer

Again Skyfire removes restriction 2). but not restriction 1).

Where in the written rules does it state that a Special Rule cannot override several general rules at one time? Please give correct citation.

Wow how is this argument still going?

 Imperator_Class wrote:
Wow how is this argument still going?

Because no one is reading the rules, and then they are trying to argue based on what they believe and not what is written in the FAQ/BRB.

 Imperator_Class wrote:
Wow how is this argument still going?

The same as 99% of all arguments on this forum go

 Nem wrote:
I think Grendel had the best explination here, if you skyfire overrides heavy restrictions then I can also deepstrike a skimmer in and assualt you strait away and all sorts of game breaking fun.

This is not relevant to this topic. Assulting from a DS cannot happen as both the Model DSing and the unit in the transport count as having moved at Cruising speed.

You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

So I can assault out of a Drop Pod then? After all, Drop Pods are Open-topped and thus have the Assault Vehicle special rule. Therefore, if I disembark from a DP, I can assault, right?

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 Bobaram wrote:
Agreed with Grendel. You can ignore the Snapshot requirement as a result of Skyfire when shooting at the flyer. However, skyfire does not remove the restriction on Heavy Weapons and their rules.

Page 51: When shooting, a model with a Heavy weapon shoots the number of times indicated. If a model moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots (see page 13 for details) Remember wthat weapons with the Blast special rule cannont fire Snap Shots. Models that shoot with Heavy weapons in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing Assault Phase.

Page 53: Chart Heavy Weapons (Firer Cannot Assault) Shows nifty picture of range and Stationary vs. Moving. Arrow shows for Moving Maximum range of weapon, but fire as a snap shot. Little box next to it If a model with a Heavy weapon remains Stationary, it can fire the number of times indicated (at his normal ballistic skill) up to the maximum range of the weapon. If the firer moved, the shot will only hit on a 6, as it is a Snap Shot (fired at Ballistic Skill 1)

Page 13: Snap Shots : Under certain circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots - Opportunistic bursts of fire 'snapped' off in the general direction of the target. The most comon occurence of a Snap Shot is when a model with a Heavy weapon, such as a heavy bolter, moves and shoots in the same turn (see page 51 for more on heavy weapons). If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, then it's Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

Page 49: Hard to Hit A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule. (See Page 42).

Page 81: Hard to Hit Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42).


Page 32: Second Paragrah: Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a Special Rule.

Page 42: Sky Fire A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, uses its Normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor Special Rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets.

Page 57: Flakk Missile - Heavy 1, Skyfire


The Weapon itself has both the Heavy Rule and the Skyfire Rule. You must use both rules when firing the weapon. For instance were you to target the Flakk Missile at something other than a Flyer, Flying Monstrous Creature or Skimmer it would be treated as a snap shot due to not having the Interceptor Special Rule. Or per the Heavy Rule you would not be able to charge in the following Assault Phase if you fire the Weapon.

Both rules are exclusive to themselves and independent of each other Skyfire does not change the rules and requirements of Heavy and Heavy can't change the rules and requirements of Skyfire. This does not mean that Skyfire ignores rules and situations cause by Heavy. Per the Flying Monstrous Creature and Flyer Sections you are allowed to fire at Normal BS against them with the Skyfire Special Rule. Per the Heavy Weapon rule, which does not mention a target, you are forced to fire the weapon as a snap shot if you move. Not because you are shooting at a flyer, but because you moved.

So there are two situations causing you to Snap Shot
1) You are shooting at a flyer
2) You moved with a Heavy Weapon

The Skyfire Rule allows you to shoot at normal Ballistic Skill at a Flyer due to it's special rule wording. Negating Situation 1.
The Heavy rule forces you to snap shoot, as a result of movement.

Skyfire is in regards to the situation of shooting at a flyer and thus alters the rules within those flyer sections stating you must make a Snap Shot when shoot at them. It does not reference within itself the Heavy Rule, which is what is Forcing you to Snap Shoot, and it does not reference a change to the snap shooting rules, so it can't change that rule.

As you have already posted all the rules I will point out that the "Heavy" Rule is a general rule and thus can be broken by the Skyfire Special Rule.

Heavy only states that if you move you fire snap shots, and that is the only restriction that heavy gives.

Hard to Hit also references Snap shots as the only way to fire at a flyer.

No where in the snap shot rule as written does it state that you can ignore or disregard the Skyfire Special rule under certain circumstances.

No where on the Movement chart does it show a Weapon with Skyfire and how movement effects it.

No where in the skyfire rule as written does it state that it only ignores those snap shots caused by shooting at a flyer and no other situations, it only states that you use your normal BS to fire at Flyers/FMCs/Skimmers. Also the "Heavy", "Hard to Hit", and "Snap shot" general rules as written state nothing about discounting or ignoring the Skyfire Special rule in anyway.

"Snap Shot" clearly states that if you are forced to make snap shots instead of shooting normally then you are BS 1. Meaning that if you are forced to make snap shots you are not shooting normally, and in the case of moving and "Heavy", shooting at a flying model, you are not shooting at your normal BS. Where as the Skyfire Special Rule explicitly states you use your normal BS when Firing/Shooting at Flyers/FMCs/skimmers.

The Skyfire Special Rule as written breaks all rules that restrict your BS when shooting at Flyers/FMCs/ Skimmers.

And as convoluted as that subject is, this is not the same as assaulting from a transport arriving from reserves, which is strictly forbidden as you cannot even disembark from a transport arriving from reserves as you have moved more than 6 in". This is about a Special Rule overriding sever general rules at once, which it is more than capable of doing as Special rules break General rules.

By all means quote me in the FAQ's and in the Rules where Snap shots as a rule is allowed to disregard the Skyfire Special Rule in if you move. Show me where I am wrong, but do not simply use a logical fallacy or adding to rules as written to prove your point.

As the Rules are written you can move a weapon with the "Heavy" Type and while firing and are force to Snap fire, if you have the Skyfire Special Rule and are firing at a Flyer/Skimmer/FMC, you use your normal BS.

Show me how the written Rules do not state that.

Page 7: Basic Versus Advanced, States that the Basic rules are on pages 10-31, therefore anything beyond that is an Advanced rule. "Heavy" therefore is not voided by a special rule as those only override Basic Rules that apply to all models, those listed on pages 10-31. It also lists that where Advanced rules, those not on Pages 10-31, apply to a specifc model, they always override any contradicting Basic Rules.

Therefore, Skyfire is allowed to break the rule of snap shot as it is a basic rule, but not the "Heavy" Rule as it is not a rule that falls within the BRB definition of a Basic Rule. So, Skyfire allows a normal BS shot at the vehicle and no snap shot in that regard, per the stated requirement that snap shot is considered a General Rule. It does not specifically mention voiding the "Heavy" rule and it does not specifically mention breaking the Snap Shot rule, and therefore can't break the "Heavy" rule requirement that the shot be taken per the Snap Shot rules. So while the model can shoot, and per Skyfire shoots at it's Normal BS when firing at fliers, it must obey the "Heavy" rule that the shot be fired per the Snap Shot rules and therefore ends up with a BS of 1.

Unless you can show where it's written that Skyfire voids Advanced Rules, or where it's written that it specifically negates Heavy.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

Noone said that - however they only override what they specifically override

Nothing in the skyfire rule overrides the heavy rules snapshot requirement. Specific vs general - learn it, love it.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

It absolutely can.
First there has to be a specific conflict. There isn't one here. Skyfire does not override Heavy.

 Bobaram wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 Bobaram wrote:
Agreed with Grendel. You can ignore the Snapshot requirement as a result of Skyfire when shooting at the flyer. However, skyfire does not remove the restriction on Heavy Weapons and their rules.

Page 51: When shooting, a model with a Heavy weapon shoots the number of times indicated. If a model moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots (see page 13 for details) Remember wthat weapons with the Blast special rule cannont fire Snap Shots. Models that shoot with Heavy weapons in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing Assault Phase.

Page 53: Chart Heavy Weapons (Firer Cannot Assault) Shows nifty picture of range and Stationary vs. Moving. Arrow shows for Moving Maximum range of weapon, but fire as a snap shot. Little box next to it If a model with a Heavy weapon remains Stationary, it can fire the number of times indicated (at his normal ballistic skill) up to the maximum range of the weapon. If the firer moved, the shot will only hit on a 6, as it is a Snap Shot (fired at Ballistic Skill 1)

Page 13: Snap Shots : Under certain circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots - Opportunistic bursts of fire 'snapped' off in the general direction of the target. The most comon occurence of a Snap Shot is when a model with a Heavy weapon, such as a heavy bolter, moves and shoots in the same turn (see page 51 for more on heavy weapons). If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, then it's Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

Page 49: Hard to Hit A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule. (See Page 42).

Page 81: Hard to Hit Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42).


Page 32: Second Paragrah: Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a Special Rule.

Page 42: Sky Fire A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, uses its Normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor Special Rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets.

Page 57: Flakk Missile - Heavy 1, Skyfire


The Weapon itself has both the Heavy Rule and the Skyfire Rule. You must use both rules when firing the weapon. For instance were you to target the Flakk Missile at something other than a Flyer, Flying Monstrous Creature or Skimmer it would be treated as a snap shot due to not having the Interceptor Special Rule. Or per the Heavy Rule you would not be able to charge in the following Assault Phase if you fire the Weapon.

Both rules are exclusive to themselves and independent of each other Skyfire does not change the rules and requirements of Heavy and Heavy can't change the rules and requirements of Skyfire. This does not mean that Skyfire ignores rules and situations cause by Heavy. Per the Flying Monstrous Creature and Flyer Sections you are allowed to fire at Normal BS against them with the Skyfire Special Rule. Per the Heavy Weapon rule, which does not mention a target, you are forced to fire the weapon as a snap shot if you move. Not because you are shooting at a flyer, but because you moved.

So there are two situations causing you to Snap Shot
1) You are shooting at a flyer
2) You moved with a Heavy Weapon

The Skyfire Rule allows you to shoot at normal Ballistic Skill at a Flyer due to it's special rule wording. Negating Situation 1.
The Heavy rule forces you to snap shoot, as a result of movement.

Skyfire is in regards to the situation of shooting at a flyer and thus alters the rules within those flyer sections stating you must make a Snap Shot when shoot at them. It does not reference within itself the Heavy Rule, which is what is Forcing you to Snap Shoot, and it does not reference a change to the snap shooting rules, so it can't change that rule.

As you have already posted all the rules I will point out that the "Heavy" Rule is a general rule and thus can be broken by the Skyfire Special Rule.

Heavy only states that if you move you fire snap shots, and that is the only restriction that heavy gives.

Hard to Hit also references Snap shots as the only way to fire at a flyer.

No where in the snap shot rule as written does it state that you can ignore or disregard the Skyfire Special rule under certain circumstances.

No where on the Movement chart does it show a Weapon with Skyfire and how movement effects it.

No where in the skyfire rule as written does it state that it only ignores those snap shots caused by shooting at a flyer and no other situations, it only states that you use your normal BS to fire at Flyers/FMCs/Skimmers. Also the "Heavy", "Hard to Hit", and "Snap shot" general rules as written state nothing about discounting or ignoring the Skyfire Special rule in anyway.

"Snap Shot" clearly states that if you are forced to make snap shots instead of shooting normally then you are BS 1. Meaning that if you are forced to make snap shots you are not shooting normally, and in the case of moving and "Heavy", shooting at a flying model, you are not shooting at your normal BS. Where as the Skyfire Special Rule explicitly states you use your normal BS when Firing/Shooting at Flyers/FMCs/skimmers.

The Skyfire Special Rule as written breaks all rules that restrict your BS when shooting at Flyers/FMCs/ Skimmers.

And as convoluted as that subject is, this is not the same as assaulting from a transport arriving from reserves, which is strictly forbidden as you cannot even disembark from a transport arriving from reserves as you have moved more than 6 in". This is about a Special Rule overriding sever general rules at once, which it is more than capable of doing as Special rules break General rules.

By all means quote me in the FAQ's and in the Rules where Snap shots as a rule is allowed to disregard the Skyfire Special Rule in if you move. Show me where I am wrong, but do not simply use a logical fallacy or adding to rules as written to prove your point.

As the Rules are written you can move a weapon with the "Heavy" Type and while firing and are force to Snap fire, if you have the Skyfire Special Rule and are firing at a Flyer/Skimmer/FMC, you use your normal BS.

Show me how the written Rules do not state that.

Page 7: Basic Versus Advanced, States that the Basic rules are on pages 10-31, therefore anything beyond that is an Advanced rule. "Heavy" therefore is not voided by a special rule as those only override Basic Rules that apply to all models, those listed on pages 10-31. It also lists that where Advanced rules, those not on Pages 10-31, apply to a specifc model, they always override any contradicting Basic Rules.

Therefore, Skyfire is allowed to break the rule of snap shot as it is a basic rule, but not the "Heavy" Rule as it is not a rule that falls within the BRB definition of a Basic Rule. So, Skyfire allows a normal BS shot at the vehicle and no snap shot in that regard, per the stated requirement that snap shot is considered a General Rule. It does not specifically mention voiding the "Heavy" rule and it does not specifically mention breaking the Snap Shot rule, and therefore can't break the "Heavy" rule requirement that the shot be taken per the Snap Shot rules. So while the model can shoot, and per Skyfire shoots at it's Normal BS when firing at fliers, it must obey the "Heavy" rule that the shot be fired per the Snap Shot rules and therefore ends up with a BS of 1.

Unless you can show where it's written that Skyfire voids Advanced Rules, or where it's written that it specifically negates Heavy.

First off See page 32 about Special Rules breaking other rules.

Secondly there are many rules in play right now that override several basic and advanced rules at the same time.

ATSKNF, Overrides the sweeping advance rule, if you do break and get away it overrides the less than 25% rally rule, it also overrides the snap shot and acting rules place upon a unit once they do rally normally. That is just one instance of a Special rule overriding seversl rules at once.

Now as I see it, the way most people are thinking is that Skyfire only removes the Snap shot rule caused by hart to hit. So then what happens if a flakk missile (Carried by a Marine) moved and fires at a Skimmer? The Normal BS is say 5 and due to moving the marine will snap firing at BS 1 at a skimmer. The normal BS against the Skimmer is 5 modified by Snap Shot to BS 1, there is only one instance the snap shot restriction in play at this time, and you will never have to normally Snap shot at a Skimmer as they do not have the hard to hit rule. As there is only one snap shot restriction on the model at this time Skyfire would then (as you all have been insisting) remove the one instance of snap shot and the heavy weapon would fire at the skimmer at its normal BS of 5 instead of the snap shot BS of 1.

All I have seen so far in the criticism of my argument is nearly everyone committing the Fallacy of confirming the antecedent. That is not a sound criticism.

No, Skyfire removes the one type of restriction. It doesn't remove non-Hard to Hit restrictions.

Again: specific vs genberal. Skyfire does not specifically state it overrides the Heavy snapshot, so it doesn't do so

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

Noone said that - however they only override what they specifically override

Nothing in the skyfire rule overrides the heavy rules snapshot requirement. Specific vs general - learn it, love it.

And nothing in the Snap Shot rule (Which is the rule referenced by Heavy telling you to see this rule after you move) says it overrides the Skyfire rule.

Nor Does anything in the heavy rule state that it overrides the Skyfire rule now does it.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, Skyfire removes the one type of restriction. It doesn't remove non-Hard to Hit restrictions.

Where does it say that in the BRB?

 BLADERIKER wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

Noone said that - however they only override what they specifically override

Nothing in the skyfire rule overrides the heavy rules snapshot requirement. Specific vs general - learn it, love it.

And nothing in the Snap Shot rule (Which is the rule referenced by Heavy telling you to see this rule after you move) says it overrides the Skyfire rule.

Now does it.

It's not overriding the Snap Shot rule. Nothing is.
The fact that Heavy is forcing a Snap Shot has nothing to do with Skyfire.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

Noone said that - however they only override what they specifically override

Nothing in the skyfire rule overrides the heavy rules snapshot requirement. Specific vs general - learn it, love it.

And nothing in the Snap Shot rule (Which is the rule referenced by Heavy telling you to see this rule after you move) says it overrides the Skyfire rule.

Now does it.

It's not overriding the Snap Shot rule. Nothing is.
The fact that Heavy is forcing a Snap Shot has nothing to do with Skyfire.

And the fact that Skyfire says you use the normal BS does not care about the restrictions that heavy may or may not put on the weapon.

OK, so why are you overriding Heavy with out explicit permission in the Skyfire rule?

One rule overrides another if it specifically states it does. Your example of ATSKNF was absolutely apt, as it specifies that it overrides Sweeping Advance

Page and para where the skyfire rule states it overrides Heavy making you snapshot

(You cannot find it - you have two sources of Snapshot, and only one is lifted)

 BLADERIKER wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

Noone said that - however they only override what they specifically override

Nothing in the skyfire rule overrides the heavy rules snapshot requirement. Specific vs general - learn it, love it.

And nothing in the Snap Shot rule (Which is the rule referenced by Heavy telling you to see this rule after you move) says it overrides the Skyfire rule.

Now does it.

It's not overriding the Snap Shot rule. Nothing is.
The fact that Heavy is forcing a Snap Shot has nothing to do with Skyfire.

And the fact that Skyfire says you use the normal BS does not care about the restrictions that heavy may or may not put on the weapon.

It really does. If you're using your normal BS you are not snap firing and therefore breaking the Heavy rule.

BLADERIKER,

Can a unit assault out of a Land Raider the turn it arrives via Deep Strike?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
OK, so why are you overriding Heavy with out explicit permission in the Skyfire rule?

One rule overrides another if it specifically states it does. Your example of ATSKNF was absolutely apt, as it specifies that it overrides Sweeping Advance

Page and para where the skyfire rule states it overrides Heavy making you snapshot

(You cannot find it - you have two sources of Snapshot, and only one is lifted)

Skyfire states you use your normal BS when firing at flyer/FMC/ and SKimmers. and in the case of skimmers there is only one instance of snap shot rule in play.

Because Skyfire tells you to use your normal BS when firing at these three types of units, that is where the permission comes from to override the Heavy rule and snap firing, because you are not using your normal BS when you Snap fire no matter how many stacks of Snap fire/blind, or whatever causes your BS to be modified whether positive or negative that phase you are not using your normal BS. Skyfire clearly states that you use your Normal BS when firing at those three unit types.

As per your example of two instances of Snap shot, if there is only one instance of Snap shot as in firing at a skimmer with a moving heavy weapon with skyfire then by your logic and based on what you have said the heavy snap shot would be removed by Skyfire and the Missile would hit at Normal BS. In this case there is one and only one source of Snap Shot, which by your logic would be removed by Skyfire.

Show me in the BRB where "Heavy" or Snap Shot specifically states that it overrides or has permission to override Skyfire when firing at one of the three unit types that skyfire affects.

You Cannot either and you know it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
BLADERIKER,

Can a unit assault out of a Land Raider the turn it arrives via Deep Strike?

No the model and the units in transport count as having moved at Cruising speed and cannot disembark. And this has nothing to do with this argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

Noone said that - however they only override what they specifically override

Nothing in the skyfire rule overrides the heavy rules snapshot requirement. Specific vs general - learn it, love it.

And nothing in the Snap Shot rule (Which is the rule referenced by Heavy telling you to see this rule after you move) says it overrides the Skyfire rule.

Now does it.

It's not overriding the Snap Shot rule. Nothing is.
The fact that Heavy is forcing a Snap Shot has nothing to do with Skyfire.

And the fact that Skyfire says you use the normal BS does not care about the restrictions that heavy may or may not put on the weapon.

It really does. If you're using your normal BS you are not snap firing and therefore breaking the Heavy rule.

Which is exactly what a Special Rule such as Skyfire does it breaks the rules. As per page 32. Thank you for confirming what is written on Page 32 of the BRB

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
BLADERIKER,

Can a unit assault out of a Land Raider the turn it arrives via Deep Strike?

No the model and the units in transport count as having moved at Cruising speed and cannot disembark. And this has nothing to do with this argument.

Apparently, you need to review the Deep Strike rules, specifically the very first sentence after the bullet list.

And this applies perfectly to the argument at hand.

I had a huge rebuttal, but it's obvious you just don't want to be wrong no matter what. Have a nice day, you win, go forth and argue this at a tournament.

Ok, im going to compartmentalise this. Forget the skyfire for a second. Unless you are relentless or SnP, can you ever fire anything other then snap shots after moving with a heavy weapon?

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Which is exactly what a Special Rule such as Skyfire does it breaks the rules. As per page 32. Thank you for confirming what is written on Page 32 of the BRB

What rules does Skyfire break?
Hmmm I wonder how we know. Oh! It does what the rule says!
Does your BRB mention anything about Skyfire ignoring Heavy's rules? Mine doesn't.

 Bobaram wrote:
You have yet to show anywhere in he rules at all where it says skyfire does what you say, all you keep doing is telling us to come up with more reasons why your wrong and putting forth a different argument every time you are proven wrong, with out actually offering a rebuttal. Furthermore it still does not say mo snap shot anywhere in any of the verbiage you've used and neither does it reference any instance of skyfire overriding anything other than the statement that says within flyer that you don't have to snap shoot. And even then it references skyfire it makes no mention in that passage of a rule bypassing another special or advanced rule. If you're going to claim we're all wrong because what we say isn't spelled out specifically in a manner you like you don't get to claim that you're right for the exact same reason. That's not a debate, a question or an argument, it's you just telling everyone they're wrong because you don't like it.

Your opinion is noted, yet I have not changed my stance on this argument, in spite of all the criticism. Normal BS as I stated before is the BS on the Models Stat line, go back and look to see if I said different. Snap firing modifies the BS to a BS of 1 from whatever it was, no matter how many instances of a Stat being modified, or sources that modify a Stat your Normal Stat is the one on the Models Stat Line. When a Rule tells you to use the models normal (Fill in the Stat) you do not use the modified stat you use the Models normal Stat from the Stat line barring a Psychic power that prenatally alters a Stat for the duration of the game, than and only then is the normal Stat changed to the modified stat.

What really needs to be proven here is what is the Definition of a Normal Stat (WS/BS/T) and not what counts as a normal stat but what IS a Normal Stat.

As for Skyfire it states you use the models Normal BS for firing at those three units, it does not state under what circumstances you are not allowed to fire at your Normal BS at those three types of units, only that you fire at the models Normal BS when shooting at those units. It gives a caveat regarding shooting at unit types that are not those three types of unit, and that if you choose to do so you will be snap firing, unless you posses the interceptor Special Rule.

That is what I have been saying from the get go and that is the argument.

Skyfire does not lift the restriction that Heavy applies. Snap shots cannot be modified. Therefore trying to ignore the Snap Shot restriction breaks a rule.

The normal BS is the BS plus the special rule of Heavy. BS 1 is the BS the model would normally use of it was firing at any model on the table after having moved. That's the normal stat for a moving heavy weapon.

In addition to that shooting at a flyer further modifies your BS to 1 because of Hard to Hit. Skyfire removes the snap fire penalty for shooting at the flyer and allows you to use the same BS you would use if you were shooting a non-flyer unit.

Which is 4 for a stationary Heavy weapon, and 1 for a moving Heavy weapon.

BLADERIKER, have you re-read the Deep Strike rules, and do you still stand by your previous answer regarding assaulting out of a deep striking land raider.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Which is exactly what a Special Rule such as Skyfire does it breaks the rules. As per page 32. Thank you for confirming what is written on Page 32 of the BRB

What rules does Skyfire break?
Hmmm I wonder how we know. Oh! It does what the rule says!
Does your BRB mention anything about Skyfire ignoring Heavy's rules? Mine doesn't.

Then you must have a 5th ed BRB In which case I feel sorry for you. Also if I recall Skyfire is a Special Rule, furthermore if I recall correctly as per page 32 of the BRB Special Rules have permission to break/bend or flat out ignore rules in the BRB. At this point you are arguing about how the BRB tells you that Special rules break rules but that this Special rule needs extra special permission to break rules. Simply put Special Rules Break/Bend All other Game rules.

The Heavy rule itself does not mention Skyfire in any way nor does it modify in any way the BS of a Model that moves, What alters the BS in the Heavy rule is the Snap Shot rule. So "Heavy refers you to Snap Shot; Snap Shot modifies the BS to 1, and Skyfire Tells you to use the Normal BS, not the Modified, or the current BS but the Normal BS of the model.

As for General vs. Specific rules how much more Specific does "Use the models Normal BS' have to be, there is nothing general about that? You either use the normal BS or you do not there is nothing in between.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Where in the written rules does it state that a Special Rule cannot override several general rules at one time? Please give correct citation.

Where does it say it overrides all restrictions, or more than one?
Or anything other than the restriction the rule refers to?

 Happyjew wrote:
BLADERIKER, have you re-read the Deep Strike rules, and do you still stand by your previous answer regarding assaulting out of a deep striking land raider.

I wonder where you are trying to take this? I have read the rules and I have seen what they say on page 36. I stand by what I said. The rules are very clear about this a unit Arriving from DS or that Disembarked from a unit that DS cannot assault in that turns assault phase. That is what it states on page 36. Or did you mean reserves? if you meant reserves then after placing the Landraider on the field you have moved more than 6 in' and cannot disembark as per the disembarking rules for vehicles. is that what you meant?

 BLADERIKER wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Which is exactly what a Special Rule such as Skyfire does it breaks the rules. As per page 32. Thank you for confirming what is written on Page 32 of the BRB

What rules does Skyfire break?
Hmmm I wonder how we know. Oh! It does what the rule says!
Does your BRB mention anything about Skyfire ignoring Heavy's rules? Mine doesn't.

Then you must have a 5th ed BRB In which case I feel sorry for you. Also if I recall Skyfire is a Special Rule, furthermore if I recall correctly as per page 32 of the BRB Special Rules have permission to break/bend or flat out ignore rules in the BRB. At this point you are arguing about how the BRB tells you that Special rules break rules but that this Special rule needs extra special permission to break rules. Simply put Special Rules Break/Bend All other Game rules.

No, I have the 6th edition book thanks. Please quote the rule that allows Skyfire to ignore Heavy. You've asserted it exists in your rulebook.
They have the ability to bend/break rules.
Without Skyfire, what does a model fire at a Flyer as? BS1.
Skyfire allows a model to break that rule. According to you a model with Adamantium Will ignores Hard to Hit. It's a special rule after all and they can break any rule right?

The Heavy rule itself does not mention Skyfire in any way nor does it modify in any way the BS of a Model that moves, What alters the BS in the Heavy rule is the Snap Shot rule. So "Heavy refers you to Snap Shot; Snap Shot modifies the BS to 1, and Skyfire Tells you to use the Normal BS, not the Modified, or the current BS but the Normal BS of the model.

So you're attempting to modify the BS of a model that must Snap Shot? Illegal.

As for General vs. Specific rules how much more Specific does "Use the models Normal BS' have to be, there is nothing general about that? You either use the normal BS or you do not there is nothing in between.

Context says you use the normal BS instead of a Snap Shot when firing at a flier.

 grendel083 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Where in the written rules does it state that a Special Rule cannot override several general rules at one time? Please give correct citation.

Where does it say it overrides all restrictions, or more than one?
Or anything other than the restriction the rule refers to?

Then we have no choice other than to agree to disagree, you cannot bring to bear what I ask and I cannot bring to bear what you ask, so sadly until they FAQ it there is no right answer.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
BLADERIKER, have you re-read the Deep Strike rules, and do you still stand by your previous answer regarding assaulting out of a deep striking land raider.

I wonder where you are trying to take this? I have read the rules and I have seen what they say on page 36. I stand by what I said. The rules are very clear about this a unit Arriving from DS or that Disembarked from a unit that DS cannot assault in that turns assault phase. That is what it states on page 36. Or did you mean reserves? if you meant reserves then after placing the Landraider on the field you have moved more than 6 in' and cannot disembark as per the disembarking rules for vehicles. is that what you meant?

Apparently I have to break it down then.

A squad of terminators are in land raider. The land raider deep strikes. The unit disembarks (as they are allowed to per the DS rules). Land raiders have the "Assault Vehicle" special rule. Can the unit assault? Why or why not?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Which is exactly what a Special Rule such as Skyfire does it breaks the rules. As per page 32. Thank you for confirming what is written on Page 32 of the BRB

What rules does Skyfire break?
Hmmm I wonder how we know. Oh! It does what the rule says!
Does your BRB mention anything about Skyfire ignoring Heavy's rules? Mine doesn't.

Then you must have a 5th ed BRB In which case I feel sorry for you. Also if I recall Skyfire is a Special Rule, furthermore if I recall correctly as per page 32 of the BRB Special Rules have permission to break/bend or flat out ignore rules in the BRB. At this point you are arguing about how the BRB tells you that Special rules break rules but that this Special rule needs extra special permission to break rules. Simply put Special Rules Break/Bend All other Game rules.

No, I have the 6th edition book thanks. Please quote the rule that allows Skyfire to ignore Heavy. You've asserted it exists in your rulebook.
They have the ability to bend/break rules.
Without Skyfire, what does a model fire at a Flyer as? BS1.
Skyfire allows a model to break that rule. According to you a model with Adamantium Will ignores Hard to Hit. It's a special rule after all and they can break any rule right?

The Heavy rule itself does not mention Skyfire in any way nor does it modify in any way the BS of a Model that moves, What alters the BS in the Heavy rule is the Snap Shot rule. So "Heavy refers you to Snap Shot; Snap Shot modifies the BS to 1, and Skyfire Tells you to use the Normal BS, not the Modified, or the current BS but the Normal BS of the model.

So you're attempting to modify the BS of a model that must Snap Shot? Illegal.

As for General vs. Specific rules how much more Specific does "Use the models Normal BS' have to be, there is nothing general about that? You either use the normal BS or you do not there is nothing in between.

Context says you use the normal BS instead of a Snap Shot when firing at a flier.

And I have you in a Paradox right there. As you are stating Skyfire is Modifying the BS of the Snap shot which is illegal due to the FAQ regarding modifying snap shots. Which means that in all cases Skyfire must modify the BS which is expressly forbidden by the FAQ, Therefore Skyfire can never fire at a flyer at a Normal BS higher than 1. Meaning that Skyfire has no effect on snap shots at all.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
BLADERIKER, have you re-read the Deep Strike rules, and do you still stand by your previous answer regarding assaulting out of a deep striking land raider.

I wonder where you are trying to take this? I have read the rules and I have seen what they say on page 36. I stand by what I said. The rules are very clear about this a unit Arriving from DS or that Disembarked from a unit that DS cannot assault in that turns assault phase. That is what it states on page 36. Or did you mean reserves? if you meant reserves then after placing the Landraider on the field you have moved more than 6 in' and cannot disembark as per the disembarking rules for vehicles. is that what you meant?

Apparently I have to break it down then.

A squad of terminators are in land raider. The land raider deep strikes. The unit disembarks (as they are allowed to per the DS rules). Land raiders have the "Assault Vehicle" special rule. Can the unit assault? Why or why not?

See the DS entry in the Special rules section your answer is there.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
See the DS entry in the Special rules section your answer is there.

The answer would be no, for the same reason you can't move and fire heavy weapons at a flyer with sky flyer and not need 6's

P.S. Assault Vehicle is not a Special Rule. it might be an advanced rule or a basic rule but it is not a Special Rule found in the special rule section of the BRB.

Yes it is.

I know these aren't the answers you want, that's been very clear throughout. But sadly this is what they are.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
And I have you in a Paradox right there. As you are stating Skyfire is Modifying the BS of the Snap shot which is illegal due to the FAQ regarding modifying snap shots. Which means that in all cases Skyfire must modify the BS which is expressly forbidden by the FAQ, Therefore Skyfire can never fire at a flyer at a Normal BS higher than 1. Meaning that Skyfire has no effect on snap shots at all.

Skyfire has a specific allowance to fire at Flyers, etc. Therefore it can override that single restriction. It has no permission to override a Snap Shot due to a moving Heavy weapon.

See the DS entry in the Special rules section your answer is there.

Please quote it here.

 grendel083 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
See the DS entry in the Special rules section your answer is there.

The answer would be no, for the same reason you can't move and fire heavy weapons at a flyer with sky flyer and not need 6's

P.S. Assault Vehicle is not a Special Rule. it might be an advanced rule or a basic rule but it is not a Special Rule found in the special rule section of the BRB.

Yes it is.

I know these aren't the answers you want, that's been very clear throughout. But sadly this is what they are.

I did see that Assault Vehicles was a special rule and edited my response accordingly.

Skyfire does is not concerned about what the models modified BS, it is only concerned with the normal BS of model. That is why it a model with a heavy weapon that has skyfire can shoot at a flyer at normal BS even if it moved, The number of of Modifiers still does not change what the Normal BS is, and the wording of Skyfire only tells you to use the Normal BS, and Nothing else.

So you're saying you can assault out of a Land Raider that has arrived from reserve?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
And I have you in a Paradox right there. As you are stating Skyfire is Modifying the BS of the Snap shot which is illegal due to the FAQ regarding modifying snap shots. Which means that in all cases Skyfire must modify the BS which is expressly forbidden by the FAQ, Therefore Skyfire can never fire at a flyer at a Normal BS higher than 1. Meaning that Skyfire has no effect on snap shots at all.

Skyfire has a specific allowance to fire at Flyers, etc. Therefore it can override that single restriction. It has no permission to override a Snap Shot due to a moving Heavy weapon.

See the DS entry in the Special rules section your answer is there.

Please quote it here.

As I said before The argument regarding DS landraiders and Assaulting is a horse of a different color and is not the same as this argument, And here is why.

I am arguing that a Special Rule takes precedence over the basic/advanced rules being use to argue against it.

This other argument about DS landraiders and Assaults is about two Special rules in conflict with each other.

These two arguments are two very different things in and of themselves, there are some similarities I will give you that, but they are not the same and their outcome will have no bearing on the outcome of the other.

As for you first statement can you answer these?

Skyfire says that if you fire at a Flyer with a weapon/model using the skyfire special rule you use your normal BS. True of False?

Snap Shot says that you are firing at BS 1 instead of firing normally. True of False?

Heavy states that if you move you are firing Snap Shots. True of False?

It is not stated anywhere in the Skyfire Rule (Which as a Speicla Rule, is given Permission to break other game rules) that it only removes one source of Snap Shots when firing at a Flyer/FMC/Skimmer? True of False?

Are Special Rules given permission to break other game rules as. True or False?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
So you're saying you can assault out of a Land Raider that has arrived from reserve?

Sadly your attempt to draw me into an argument regarding two special rules, has no bearing on my argument regarding a special rule vs. general/advanced rules.

I and will not answer question regarding the DS landraider and assaults as it does not have any impact on this argument.

It has a lot of bearing.
You want your answer to be true, and refuse to look at anything that might say otherwise.

 grendel083 wrote:
It has a lot of bearing.
You want your answer to be true, and refuse to look at anything that might say otherwise.

The DS Landraider and Assaulting has nothing in common with my argument.

Deep Strike is a Special Rule. True or False?

Assault Vehicle is a Special Rule. True of False?

This argument you are trying in vain to drag me into is about a Conflict between two Special Rules and which takes priority, and the only way you will find resolution is in a GW FAQ regarding the subject, much like the FNP vs. Force Weapon debate. Two special Rules required a GW FAQ to resolve the conflict between them once and for all.

With that said.

Skyfire is a Special Rule. True or False?

Snap Shot is a General Game Rule. True of False?

Heavy is a General/Advanced Game Rule. True or False?

The Hierarchy of which Rules supersede which is: Codex>Special>Advanced>General. True of False?

My argument is regarding a Special Rule breaking several General Rules, which as the BRB has clearly stated, Special Rules can break General rules and are given permission to do so.

My argument can be resolved without a GW FAQ (Though it might be necessary anyway) Since the rules as written seem to favor my argument. Contrary to popular conditioning.

With that said your argument cannot be resolved by any comment I add to it. There are two sides to your argument and until GW has its say both sides could be right in their stance.

It's not a conflict.
It's two sets of restrictions.
Skyfire overrides one restriction, the one it mentions: shooting at a flyer.
So yes, they are comparable.

You've now had 3 pages where not a single person has agreed with your interpretation. Why start the debate, if you don't want to hear the answer?

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It has a lot of bearing.
You want your answer to be true, and refuse to look at anything that might say otherwise.

The DS Landraider and Assaulting has nothing in common with my argument.

Deep Strike is a Special Rule. True or False?

Assault Vehicle is a Special Rule. True of False?

This argument you are trying in vain to drag me into is about a Conflict between two Special Rules and which takes priority, and the only way you will find resolution is in a GW FAQ regarding the subject, much like the FNP vs. Force Weapon debate. Two special Rules required a GW FAQ to resolve the conflict between them once and for all.

With that said.

Skyfire is a Special Rule. True or False?

Snap Shot is a General Game Rule. True of False?

Heavy is a General/Advanced Game Rule. True or False?

The Hierarchy of which Rules supersede which is: Codex>Special>Advanced>General. True of False?

My argument is regarding a Special Rule breaking several General Rules, which as the BRB has clearly stated, Special Rules can break General rules and are given permission to do so.

My argument can be resolved without a GW FAQ (Though it might be necessary anyway) Since the rules as written seem to favor my argument. Contrary to popular conditioning.

With that said your argument cannot be resolved by any comment I add to it. There are two sides to your argument and until GW has its say both sides could be right in their stance.

Dude, snap shots are set modifiers. They modify your basic statline to a set number, like how unwieldy changes your initiative to 1 no matter what. Same applies to the snap shots. It's a set modifier and changes your normal bs to 1.

So you have a missile launcher with flak missiles on a devastator marine. He moves, so heavy makes him fire a snap shot, changing his basic, normal bs to 1. But, this marine is also firing at a flyer, which usually also means a snap shot, but it does not in this case because the model has the Skyfire rule.

So even though the model may fire at his normal bs at the flyer, his normal bs is now 1 because he moved while firing a weapon with the heavy type.

 McNinja wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It has a lot of bearing.
You want your answer to be true, and refuse to look at anything that might say otherwise.

The DS Landraider and Assaulting has nothing in common with my argument.

Deep Strike is a Special Rule. True or False?

Assault Vehicle is a Special Rule. True of False?

This argument you are trying in vain to drag me into is about a Conflict between two Special Rules and which takes priority, and the only way you will find resolution is in a GW FAQ regarding the subject, much like the FNP vs. Force Weapon debate. Two special Rules required a GW FAQ to resolve the conflict between them once and for all.

With that said.

Skyfire is a Special Rule. True or False?

Snap Shot is a General Game Rule. True of False?

Heavy is a General/Advanced Game Rule. True or False?

The Hierarchy of which Rules supersede which is: Codex>Special>Advanced>General. True of False?

My argument is regarding a Special Rule breaking several General Rules, which as the BRB has clearly stated, Special Rules can break General rules and are given permission to do so.

My argument can be resolved without a GW FAQ (Though it might be necessary anyway) Since the rules as written seem to favor my argument. Contrary to popular conditioning.

With that said your argument cannot be resolved by any comment I add to it. There are two sides to your argument and until GW has its say both sides could be right in their stance.

Dude, snap shots are set modifiers. They modify your basic statline to a set number, like how unwieldy changes your initiative to 1 no matter what. Same applies to the snap shots. It's a set modifier and changes your normal bs to 1.

So you have a missile launcher with flak missiles on a devastator marine. He moves, so heavy makes him fire a snap shot, changing his basic, normal bs to 1. But, this marine is also firing at a flyer, which usually also means a snap shot, but it does not in this case because the model has the Skyfire rule.

So even though the model may fire at his normal bs at the flyer, his normal bs is now 1 because he moved while firing a weapon with the heavy type.

You have fallen into the Paradox. If you set your BS to 1 and count it as your normal BS which will be BS 1 due to Snap Shot rule, and as per the FAQ, a special Rule can never Modify the BS 1 of a snap shot. Then there is never a circumstance where Skyfire will be anything other than BS 1 when firing at a flyer/Skimmer/FMC. Thus Skyfire which clearly states that you use your normal BS to fire at flyer/FMC/Skimmers cannot mean the modified BS is the normal BS or Skyfire is useless.

Secondly, while you are correct that taking an unwiledly weapon will set your Initiative of 3/4/5 ect...To 1,and that it will always be counted as you normal Initiative during the game, the model that has the weapon with the unwieldy Special rule enters the game at initiative 1 and is thus counted as initiative 1 at all times. this is a permanent change to the Stat-line that occurs before the model/s ever see play time due to a Item upgrade.

Snap Shot is a stat Line modifier that only happens under certain conditions, the Model with the Heavy weapon that has Skyfire when it is are placed on the game board has an unmodified BS which is whatever the BS is in the models Stat Line. Thus meaning that the Normal BS of the model is whatever the original stat is plus or minus any upgrades that are purchased for it before game play starts.When forced to Snap Shot instead of using your normal BS you use BS 1. Meaning that BS 1 from the Snap Shot rule is never the normal BS of the Firing Model (Unless the Model is naturally BS 1 at the start of the game)

Thus Skyfire allows the Firing model to use its normal BS when firing at Flyers/FMC/Skimmers.

Oi, BLADERIKER, answer my question. special rules aside, can a model EVER fire anything but snap shots with a heavy weapon after moving? Yes or no.

Wow, how did this reach 3 pages overnight?

There seems to be two prevailing criticisms to my statement that a heavy weapon with Skyfire can move and fire at a Flyer/FMC/Skimmer at Normal BS.

The First Criticism is based on whether or not the Skyfire rule has the permission to ignore the Snap Shot rule caused by the Heavy weapon Moving. Several people have stated that if you fire at Normal BS at a Flyer as a heavy weapon that has moved, you are breaking the Snap Shot rule caused by the Heavy rule. As I have more than once pointed out, The "Heavy" and the "Snap Shot" rule are both general game rules, which as per page 32 of the BRB clearly states that. Special Rules break or bend General Game rules and that is why they are in the Special Rule section of the BRB.

The Second Criticism is based on setting the normal BS to 1 as per the Snap Shot rule, and then stating that the new normal BS is 1. I have more than once tried to show that this breaks the Skyfire Special Rule. Here is why, If snap shots sets your Normal BS to 1, and Skyfire tells you to fire at your normal BS, then your normal BS while skyfiring must be 1 as that is your new normal BS, that is the only way to reconcile both rules to each other without conflict. Furthermore, the FAQ tells us that no Special rule can ever modify the BS 1 of a Snap Shot. Thus meaning that even the Skyfire Special Rule cannot modify the BS 1 of a Snap Shot. As the normal BS to fire at a flyer/FMC/Skimmer is 1, then Skyfire has no effect on the BS is and completely useless, and broken as a rule.

The first Criticism is trying to argue that General Rules cannot be broken by Special Rules.

The Second Criticism flat out breaks the Skyfire Rule.

Special Rules aside. The normal BS for firing at a Flyer/FMC is BS 1. The Normal BS for firing a Heavy Weapon that moved is BS 1. The normal BS for firing overwatch is BS 1. This is the BS all units in play must use when firing under these conditions. As per the Snap Shot General Rule. If we consider that the normal BS for firing at a Flyer is BS 1, and then we apply the Skyfire Special Rule we are now firing Skyfire as BS 1, because that is the Normal BS for Firing at a Flyer/FMC as per the General Rules. Now that seems to be the way many are reading the rules. Yet this is not the way we play the Skyfire Special Rule. With that said, The Skyfire Special Rule cannot mean that we are to use the BS 1 of the Snap shot as the normal BS, or Skyfire is useless and broken. Skyfire must be referencing something else as the normal BS it is referring to in the wording of its Rule. We know that due to the FAQ that no Special Rule can ever modify the BS 1 of Snap Shot. So what is the Normal BS that Skyfire is referring to? Well snap shots make reference to normal BS in, if you are forced to fire a snap shot then you are not firing normally. Thus the Snap Shot rule points us back to what the Normal BS is, as the normal BS is the BS you would fire if you were not forced to fire Snap Shots. So Skyfire must be referring to the Unmodified BS Stat found in the Models profile including any wargear that alters the BS before game play. With all that stated Skyfire breaks the snap shot rule letting the model with Skyfire fire at its normal BS at Flyers/Skimmers/FMC. Skyfire is not concerned about what the BS is modified to only what the Normal BS is.

Thus as I have stated before.

A heavy Weapon that has moved can fire at its normal BS only if shooting Skyfire at a Flyer/FMC/Skimmer. That is Rules as Written.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imperator_Class wrote:
Oi, BLADERIKER, answer my question. special rules aside, can a model EVER fire anything but snap shots with a heavy weapon after moving? Yes or no.

The answer is No it can not. The General Rules make it clear that if you move with a Heavy Weapon you must Snap Shot. And Snap Shot states that if you are forced to fire Snap Shots instead of firing normally then you fire at BS 1.

Note: that neither the "Heavy" nor the "Snap Shot" rules are Special Rules.

And nowhere in the special rule of Skyfire does it state that it affects the Heavy rule, so the penalty from Heavy is still in effect.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Thus Skyfire allows the Firing model to use its normal BS when firing at Flyers/FMC/Skimmers.

Sure, and then you check to see if your Firing model has moved with a Heavy Weapon. If it has, you resolve your shots at BS1.

It's really rather straightforward and I'm surprised you're still trying to defend your position. Usually I'm impressed when people are tenacious enough to stick to their guns (no pun intended) but this is getting a little uncomfortable to watch.

DoW

 d-usa wrote:
And nowhere in the special rule of Skyfire does it state that it affects the Heavy rule, so the penalty from Heavy is still in effect.

Special Rules aside. The normal BS for firing at a Flyer/FMC is BS 1. The Normal BS for firing a Heavy Weapon that moved is BS 1. The normal BS for firing overwatch is BS 1. This is the BS all units in play must use when firing under these conditions. As per the Snap Shot General Rule. If we consider that the normal BS for firing at a Flyer is BS 1, and then we apply the Skyfire Special Rule we are now firing Skyfire as BS 1, because that is the Normal BS for Firing at a Flyer/FMC as per the General Rules. Now that seems to be the way many are reading the rules. Yet this is not the way we play the Skyfire Special Rule. With that said, The Skyfire Special Rule cannot mean that we are to use the BS 1 of the Snap shot as the normal BS, or Skyfire is useless and broken. Skyfire must be referencing something else as the normal BS it is referring to in the wording of its Rule. We know that due to the FAQ that no Special Rule can ever modify the BS 1 of Snap Shot. So what is the Normal BS that Skyfire is referring to? Well snap shots make reference to normal BS in, if you are forced to fire a snap shot then you are not firing normally. Thus the Snap Shot rule points us back to what the Normal BS is, as the normal BS is the BS you would fire if you were not forced to fire Snap Shots. So Skyfire must be referring to the Unmodified BS Stat found in the Models profile including any wargear that alters the BS before game play. With all that stated Skyfire breaks the snap shot rule letting the model with Skyfire fire at its normal BS at Flyers/Skimmers/FMC. Skyfire is not concerned about what the BS is modified to(Via Penalties, or Bonuses)(Or where those Modifiers are coming from) only what the Normal BS is.

Thus Allowing A heavy Weapon that moved to fire skyfire at its normal BS against a Flyer/FMC/Skimmer.

I started off writing a big long post in my head, but once I got home and read through the relevant rules, I can understand where you are coming from. That is not to say I agree - I personally believe the rules aren't in conflict. Nowhere in the Skyfire rule does it give specific permission to ignore the conditions of firing a heavy weapon. You can 'sort of' infer that it does via the 'hard to hit' rule on p81 by virtue of not having to resolve snap shots but I believe this is a stretch and certainly not the only way to interpret the rule. My personal view is that it is possible to not break the rules at all simply by not firing the heavy weapon if you moved (since Hard to Hit + Skyfire combined technically disallow snap shots altogether, and Heavy Weapon moving ONLY allows snap shots). And when in doubt, I tend to side with an interpretation of the rules that breaks no rule at all.

It's hard to argue this issue to be honest. It seems so incredibly against the intent of the rules that heavy weapons would suddenly be able to move and fire for no good reason... it would mean that there would be no point whatsoever in any skyfire weapon having a heavy profile, right? They should all just become Assault, Skyfire or something? But that's not how this part of the forum works, so we can't try to argue intent. HIWPI is that a moving HW can still only fire snap shots even on flyers, and that's the only way I've seen it played (frankly never even considered otherwise before reading this thread).

In closing, I can see where you're coming from. I don't think your argument is completely without founding, but I think you would be very unlikely to ever find a tourney judge or other player who would agree with your interpretation.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
And nowhere in the special rule of Skyfire does it state that it affects the Heavy rule, so the penalty from Heavy is still in effect.

Special Rules aside. The normal BS for firing at a Flyer/FMC is BS 1. The Normal BS for firing a Heavy Weapon that moved is BS 1. The normal BS for firing overwatch is BS 1. This is the BS all units in play must use when firing under these conditions. As per the Snap Shot General Rule. If we consider that the normal BS for firing at a Flyer is BS 1, and then we apply the Skyfire Special Rule we are now firing Skyfire as BS 1, because that is the Normal BS for Firing at a Flyer/FMC as per the General Rules. Now that seems to be the way many are reading the rules. Yet this is not the way we play the Skyfire Special Rule. With that said, The Skyfire Special Rule cannot mean that we are to use the BS 1 of the Snap shot as the normal BS, or Skyfire is useless and broken. Skyfire must be referencing something else as the normal BS it is referring to in the wording of its Rule. We know that due to the FAQ that no Special Rule can ever modify the BS 1 of Snap Shot. So what is the Normal BS that Skyfire is referring to? Well snap shots make reference to normal BS in, if you are forced to fire a snap shot then you are not firing normally. Thus the Snap Shot rule points us back to what the Normal BS is, as the normal BS is the BS you would fire if you were not forced to fire Snap Shots. So Skyfire must be referring to the Unmodified BS Stat found in the Models profile including any wargear that alters the BS before game play. With all that stated Skyfire breaks the snap shot rule letting the model with Skyfire fire at its normal BS at Flyers/Skimmers/FMC. Skyfire is not concerned about what the BS is modified to(Via Penalties, or Bonuses)(Or where those Modifiers are coming from) only what the Normal BS is.

Thus Allowing A heavy Weapon that moved to fire skyfire at its normal BS against a Flyer/FMC/Skimmer.

The rules for snap shots even mentions moving with a Heavy weapon and it the firer's BS becomes 1. Just because Skyfire overrides the restriction of only firing Snap Shots against flyers does not mean it removes the restriction of firing Snap Shots because the model moved. While I can see where you are coming from, there is no rule that says a tactical marine who moved and fired a flak missile at a flyer can override the moving restriction for Heavy weapon, just for firing at a flyer.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Special Rules aside. The normal BS for firing at a Flyer/FMC is BS 1. The Normal BS for firing a Heavy Weapon that moved is BS 1. The normal BS for firing overwatch is BS 1. This is the BS all units in play must use when firing under these conditions.

Correct from a certain point of view, but ultimately an incorrect view of things because you can't separate special rules from the situation. (not quoting the rest as it's fundamentally wrong.)

The steps to resolve this are simple. Start with the stat line, then combine the situation (target/movement/etc) with special rules surrounding the firing unit, including weapon used, and target unit have. Here we have two situations that equally apply.

So, per stat line, we start with a BS of 4.

Target Unit
1. Target Type - Flyer - Everything fires snap shots against it. (ie: BS set to 1)

Firing Unit has 2 relevant special rules.
1. SkyFire - shoot at "normal" BS against flyers.
2. Heavy - Snap shots if moved (ie: BS set to 1)

When resolving we see that SkyFire cancels out the special rule about the target being a flyer. If that was the only rule we would stop there. However, the weapon is Heavy and is another set modifier to 1. We don't have another SR overriding the movement.

clively wrote:
When resolving we see that SkyFire cancels out the special rule about the target being a flyer. If that was the only rule we would stop there. However, the weapon is Heavy and is another set modifier to 1. We don't have another SR overriding the movement.

And that's what this is - an attempt to cancel out two Snapshot penalties with a rule that only grants excemption from one.

No different than the old Fleet rule that let you assault after running... where people tried to use it to also ignore the no assaulting penalty from disembarking, deep striking and what have you. They'd just fill several pages of forums by repeating "but my unit ran and has permission to assault" until someone locked it down.

clively wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Special Rules aside. The normal BS for firing at a Flyer/FMC is BS 1. The Normal BS for firing a Heavy Weapon that moved is BS 1. The normal BS for firing overwatch is BS 1. This is the BS all units in play must use when firing under these conditions.

Correct from a certain point of view, but ultimately an incorrect view of things because you can't separate special rules from the situation. (not quoting the rest as it's fundamentally wrong.)

The steps to resolve this are simple. Start with the stat line, then combine the situation (target/movement/etc) with special rules surrounding the firing unit, including weapon used, and target unit have. Here we have two situations that equally apply.

So, per stat line, we start with a BS of 4.

Target Unit
1. Target Type - Flyer - Everything fires snap shots against it. (ie: BS set to 1)

Firing Unit has 2 relevant special rules.
1. SkyFire - shoot at "normal" BS against flyers.
2. Heavy - Snap shots if moved (ie: BS set to 1)

When resolving we see that SkyFire cancels out the special rule about the target being a flyer. If that was the only rule we would stop there. However, the weapon is Heavy and is another set modifier to 1. We don't have another SR overriding the movement.

And there is the fundamental flaw in your argument, where everyone seems to think that Skyfire changes the BS of the Snap Shot from BS 1 back to what it was normally. Skyfire cannot Modify the BS of the Snap shot as per the FAQ regarding Snap Shot Modification and Specials rules.

If we presume that "Normal" means, that which everyone has to do in a situation. Then the Normal BS for Shooting as a Flyer, Moving a Heavy weapon, and overwatch is BS 1, and that is general rules as written.

Then we apply Skyfire, but if we are presuming the "Normal" part of normal BS is based on what everyone has to do in that situation, then Skyfire which has no permission to Modifiy/Alter the BS 1 of the Snap Shot, must use the normal BS, and that normal BS as per its wording will be using BS 1 (Because that is the Normal BS that everyone uses to fire at a flyer) Thus Skyfire is broken and useless.

If we presume that the "Normal" BS for which Skyfire is instructing us to use is Not the BS everyone must use in this situation then what is the normal BS to Which Skyfire is referring? The Normal BS is, the BS you would use if you were not forced to Snap shot.

Thus Skyfire first checks to see if you are firing at a legal target for Skyfire, and if you are then it checks to see what your BS is if you were not forced to Snap Shot.

Skyfire happens the Penalties for Snap Shot are applied. It should look something like this.

Heavy Weapon Moved, you must Snap Shot. (Happens First due to Movement Phase)
Firing at a flyer with a Heavy Weapon that Moved , you must Snap Shot (Happens Second Due to Shooting Phase)
Apply Skyfire.
Skyfire checks for Legal target if not found then firing as Snapshots.
If found Skyfire checks for Normal BS and resolves the shot at the normal BS of the Shooter.

Not once did Skyfire Modify the BS as it is not Given Permission to do so, all Skyfire did was Check to see what the Normal BS would be if you did not have to Snap Shot and that your Target was a legal target.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
And there is the fundamental flaw in your argument, where everyone seems to think that Skyfire changes the BS of the Snap Shot from BS 1 back to what it was normally. Skyfire cannot Modify the BS of the Snap shot as per the FAQ regarding Snap Shot Modification and Specials rules.

Unless it has specific permission. Skyfire does. Markerlights do.
Your argument has no basis in actual rules, just your misrepresented ones.

If none of these rule-lawyering regulars in YMDC are on your side, then you might really be out in left field...

Spetulhu wrote:

clively wrote:
When resolving we see that SkyFire cancels out the special rule about the target being a flyer. If that was the only rule we would stop there. However, the weapon is Heavy and is another set modifier to 1. We don't have another SR overriding the movement.

And that's what this is - an attempt to cancel out two Snapshot penalties with a rule that only grants excemption from one.

No different than the old Fleet rule that let you assault after running... where people tried to use it to also ignore the no assaulting penalty from disembarking, deep striking and what have you. They'd just fill several pages of forums by repeating "but my unit ran and has permission to assault" until someone locked it down.

Based on what you are saying then a Special Rule cannot override two different rules unless given permission.

So how does eternal Warrior Work then? As Double Toughness causes instance death and a weapon with Instant Death causes Instant Death. But Eternal Warrior is only given permission to ignore Instant Death and not double toughness?

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

clively wrote:
When resolving we see that SkyFire cancels out the special rule about the target being a flyer. If that was the only rule we would stop there. However, the weapon is Heavy and is another set modifier to 1. We don't have another SR overriding the movement.

And that's what this is - an attempt to cancel out two Snapshot penalties with a rule that only grants excemption from one.

No different than the old Fleet rule that let you assault after running... where people tried to use it to also ignore the no assaulting penalty from disembarking, deep striking and what have you. They'd just fill several pages of forums by repeating "but my unit ran and has permission to assault" until someone locked it down.

Based on what you are saying then a Special Rule cannot override two different rules unless given permission.

So how does eternal Warrior Work then? As Double Toughness causes instance death and a weapon with Instant Death causes Instant Death. But Eternal Warrior is only given permission to ignore Instant Death and not double toughness?

You answered it. Double toughness causes Instant Death. EW ignores ID. Regardless of how the ID is caused, EW ignores ID.
If EW ignored Double Toughness ID a Force weapon would still kill it.

If a model with Skyfire is firing at a Flyer, when is its BS set to 1?

If said model is a Tau with BS3 and the Flyer has a markerlight token on it, what BS does the hit resolve at ?

S double T causes Instant Death, the special rule. It is not the only way to get tot he special rule. Wrong analogy.

We are NOT saying what you oft repeat. We are saying one special rule only overrides another when it specifies that it does.

Skyfire overrides snapshot at flyers
Skyfire does not override snapshot due to moving with heavy weapons.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
S double T causes Instant Death, the special rule. It is not the only way to get tot he special rule. Wrong analogy.

We are NOT saying what you oft repeat. We are saying one special rule only overrides another when it specifies that it does.

Skyfire overrides snapshot at flyers
Skyfire does not override snapshot due to moving with heavy weapons.

Where in the Skyfire, Heavy, or Snap Shot rules does it state that Skyfire is only allowed to ignore one source of snap shooting at a flyer?

There is only one rule so far that states that if you are firing Skyfire and have to snap shot that you must must Snap shot, and that is The Interceptor Rule, and you must have Skyfire and Interceptor for this situation to exist. Not one or the other.

No where in the Heavy Rule nor in the Snap Shot rule dose it state that Skyfire only counts against one of these rules.

Nor does it state in the Skyfire rule that it only overrides the Snap Shot penalty for Firing at a flyer, Only that you use your normal BS to fire at a Flyer.

And this is the argument as it stands.

Sadly what the majority is trying to prove has not swayed my interpretation, and conversely what I have tried to argue has not swayed the Majority. And no matter how much evidence one brings to an argument if the other side is not listening (This goes both way) or has stubbornly dug there feet in, then nothing will sway either party no matter the rightness or wrongness of what is being argued.

It has been proven through history that one person can have the correct view on something and be shunned or persecuted by the majority for questioning the norm, of course history is also full of people that think they are right and are in fact quite wrong.

Back to the debate at hand.

Again, youre missing the argument.

I never said they only ignore one. I said they only override what they specifically override.

Skyfire absoluitely overrides snapshots at flyers. Because it says it does. It doesnt say it ignores Heavy setting to snapshot, so it doesnt.

Thats all it comes down to.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Where in the Skyfire, Heavy, or Snap Shot rules does it state that Skyfire is only allowed to ignore one source of snap shooting at a flyer?

Where in the rules does it state I can't hit your models with a hammer?

There is only one rule so far that states that if you are firing Skyfire and have to snap shot that you must must Snap shot, and that is The Interceptor Rule, and you must have Skyfire and Interceptor for this situation to exist. Not one or the other.

No where in the Heavy Rule nor in the Snap Shot rule dose it state that Skyfire only counts against one of these rules.

Nor does it state in the Skyfire rule that it only overrides the Snap Shot penalty for Firing at a flyer, Only that you use your normal BS to fire at a Flyer.

In a permissive rule set you are only allowed to do what the rule actually says. Do the Skyfire rules say they cancel all Snap Shot requirements?

It has been proven through history that one person can have the correct view on something and be shunned or persecuted by the majority for questioning the norm, of course history is also full of people that think they are right and are in fact quite wrong.

It's also been proven in history that no matter how many people scream at the top of their lungs and question the majority, the planet is still round and the sky is still blue. Pretending you're some kind of martyr for arguing against the norm when you have no actual basis for your argument is silly.

Bladeriker, answer the following.

When does a Model with Skyfire have his BS set to 1?

A BS3 Tau model with skyfire shoots at a Flyer with a Markerlight token (which the unit uses to increase his BS). What BS is the shot resolved at.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Where in the Skyfire, Heavy, or Snap Shot rules does it state that Skyfire is only allowed to ignore one source of snap shooting at a flyer?

To be clear the skyfire rule also only allows you to fire at normal BS when shooting at a flyier. It does not actually mention snap shots anywhere in the rule other then you must now shoot every ground target that way. As such the skyfire rule does not let you ignore the snap fire rule it only lets you ignore the hard to hit. Other wise are you suddenly saying that tanks with skyfire can also ignore shaken and stun results since those also force you to fire nothing but snap shots.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, youre missing the argument.

I never said they only ignore one. I said they only override what they specifically override.

Skyfire absoluitely overrides snapshots at flyers. Because it says it does. It doesnt say it ignores Heavy setting to snapshot, so it doesnt.

Thats all it comes down to.

Here is the Skyfire Rule as Written:

Page 42 BRB "Skyfire" "A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets."

So show me where in the Skyfire rule as written it states that it ignores the "Hard to Hit" rule or the "Snap Shot" rule. Because I am not seeing it. While I will agree that it says nothing regarding the "Heavy" rule. I will also point out the the "Heavy" rule does not state anything about Skyfire.


Page 51 BRB "Heavy Weapons" "When shooting, a model with the Heavy weapon shoots the number of times indicated. If a Model carrying a Heavy weapon moves in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase, but only as snap shots (See Page 13 for details). Remember that weapons with the Blast special rule cannot fire snap shots. Models that shoot Heavy weapons in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing Assault phase."

I am not seeing anything even closely resembling "Heavy" making a statement about Skyfire.

Both of these rules center around the "Snap Shot" rule.

Page 13 BRB "Snap Shots" "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

The Snap Shots rule clearly states, if you are Forced to Fire a Snap Shot you are not Shooting normally. Also note that the Snap Shots rules does not mention Skyfire in it.

So then we look at the "Hard to Hit" rule.

Page 80 BRB "Hard to Hit" "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (Unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire Special rule, as described on page 42.)"

"Hard to Hit" Tells you it does not count if being fired at by a Weapon or Model with Skyfire. It is not that Skyfire removed Hard to Hit it is that Hard to hit does not count in the Presence of Skyfire.

There is only one Rule that expressly tells us Skyfire will have to Snap Shot against Flyers and that is the Interceptor Rule.

Page 38 BRB "Interceptor" If a weapon has both the Interceptor and Skyfire special rules, it uses its full Ballistic Skill against all targets (unless it is firing Snap Shots)."

That is the only instance in which Skyfire is forced to fire Snap Shots in the Written rules.

Skyfire tells you to use your Normal BS. Snap Shots forces you to not use your normal BS.

Skyfire is a Special rule, Snap Shots is a general rule.

Skyfire breaks Snap Shots.

Moving Heavy Weapon tells you to use Snap Shots.

Skyfire breaks Snap Shots.

That is rules as Written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
Bladeriker, answer the following.

When does a Model with Skyfire have his BS set to 1?

A BS3 Tau model with skyfire shoots at a Flyer with a Markerlight token (which the unit uses to increase his BS). What BS is the shot resolved at.

Are you referring to its Normal BS or its possible Modified BS in game (From turn to turn)?

There are two answers to the first part of your question.

1: It is set to BS1 when firing at a Non-flyer,FMC,Skimmer units.

2: It has the Interceptor and Skyfire rules and is is under the effects of (Blind, Moving a Heavy Weapon, Rallying, Recovering from going to ground.)

The second part requires that we break down each of the rules in play one at the time when the shot is made.

The Flyer has Hard to Hit and I presume is Zooming(You did not state if was or was not) and has at least one Markerlight token on it.

The Tau Model I presume is not Relentless, is not Carrying a Heavy Weapon, has not Rallied, has not Recovered from going to Ground, is not in Close combat, and is not affected by the Blind Effect. The Tau Model is either carrying a weapon with the Skyfire Rule, Bought an upgrade that Gives it Skyfire, or is controlling a Skyfire Nexus. (As you did not state what the conditions of this shot were).

1: Tau Player declares shot on flyer.
2: Skyfire checks to see if Target is Legal.
3: Hard to Hit checks to see if Skyfire is Present.
4: Markerlight Checks to see if Token is Present.
5: Skyfire checks for Normal BS (BS3)
6: Markerlight Modifies Normal BS to (BS4)
7: Shot is Resolved at BS 4.

It was not until I Studied the Hard to Hit rule that I figured out that Hard to Hit checks to see if Skyfire is Present and not the other way around.

Skyfire only checks for two things.
1: Is it a Flyer, FMC, Skimmer.
2: What is the Normal BS of the firing Model.

Nothing else.

Now add in the fact that the model fired a Heavy Weapon and moved without Relentless or S&P etc and show that breakdown.

Hard to Hit doesn't check for Skyfire.
You're giving too much value to the parenthetical. Grammatically the parenthetical must be able to be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence. Your interpretation makes that impossible and therefore is not correct.

rigeld2 wrote:
Hard to Hit doesn't check for Skyfire.
You're giving too much value to the parenthetical. Grammatically the parenthetical must be able to be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence. Your interpretation makes that impossible and therefore is not correct.

So then Hard to Hit does not include in its rules a If/or Statement?

Well then what does Hard to Hit say.

Page 80 BRB "Hard to Hit" "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (Unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire Special rule, as described on page 42.)"

First thing Hard to Hit states "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots"

Then it gives a Exception ( An if/or Statement) to its own rule by Stating "(Unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire Special rule, as described on page 42.)"

Thus meaning that Hard to Hit Checks for Skyfire and not the other way around.

No where in the Skyfire rule does anything like, Skyfire ignores Hard to Hit, or Skyfire ignores Snap Shots appear. In both of those cases Skyfire would be checking for either Hard to Hit or Snap Shots which it clearly does not state.

To answer Fraglie:

It would look like this based on my interpretation of the rules.

Tau Broadside with High Yield Missile pods and Velocity Tracker that Moved in the Movement Phase. I presume the same set up before?

Start of Following Shooting Phase.


1: Player Declears shots at Flyer.
2: Weapon Range checks for Target in Range.
3:Heavy Rule checks for movement in prior Movement Phase.
4: Snap Shots rule Modifies BS from Normal (BS of 3) to (BS of 1) by forcing the model to Snap Shot.
5: Skyfire Checks for legal Target.
6: Hard to Hit checks for Skyfire.
7: Markerlight Checks for Token.
8: Skyfire Checks for Normal BS (BS 3) As Snap Shots force the Model to not fire at Normal BS.
9: Markerlight Modifies Normal (BS 3) to (BS 4)
10: Shot is Resolved at BS 4.

That is the answer.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
1: Player Declears shots at Flyer.
2: Weapon Range checks for Target in Range.
3:Heavy Rule checks for movement in prior Movement Phase.
4: Snap Shots rule Modifies BS from Normal (BS of 3) to (BS of 1) by forcing the model to Snap Shot.
5: Skyfire Checks for legal Target.
6: Hard to Hit checks for Skyfire.
7: Markerlight Checks for Token.
8: Skyfire Checks for Normal BS (BS 3) As Snap Shots force the Model to not fire at Normal BS.

So you are modifying Step 4?

You must ignore the parenthetical - if you don't you're parsing the rule ignoring grammar.

 Happyjew wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
1: Player Declears shots at Flyer.
2: Weapon Range checks for Target in Range.
3:Heavy Rule checks for movement in prior Movement Phase.
4: Snap Shots rule Modifies BS from Normal (BS of 3) to (BS of 1) by forcing the model to Snap Shot.
5: Skyfire Checks for legal Target.
6: Hard to Hit checks for Skyfire.
7: Markerlight Checks for Token.
8: Skyfire Checks for Normal BS (BS 3) As Snap Shots force the Model to not fire at Normal BS.

So you are modifying Step 4?

That is where I see Snap Shots Modifying the BS. And as Snap shots forces the Model to not fire normally, the Normal BS is 3, the Modified BS is 1 and Skyfire is only concerned With what the Normal BS is, not what the Modified BS is.

Also note that Heavy is where it is due to the fact it was a condition that had to met in the movement phase and not in the Shooting Phase, Even if it was first, it would go

1: Player Declears Shooting at flyer.
2: Heavy Checks for Movement in prior phase.
3: Snap Shot Modifies To BS 1 instead of Normal (BS 3)
4: Weapon Range Checks Target Range for Legal target.

No matter how it goes Skyfire still checks for Normal BS and not the Modified BS caused by Snap Shots.

As I'm sure you want to tell us. How would you have it go as per your interpretation?

Edited: Also as I have said before this is about whether or not a Special rule can override a Basic/General/Advanced Rule.

So after looking I have found the Hierarchy of which Rules takes presidence over which. Basic Rules are Trumped by Advanced Rules as Per Page 7 BRB. "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules." Snap Shot is a Basic Rule. Heavy is an Advanced Rule. Advanced Rules and Basic Rules are Trumped by Special Rules, as per Page 32 BRB.

Page 32 BRB, "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule. A special rule might improve a models chances of causing damage by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost to its Strength, Conversely, a special rule may improve the model's survivability by granting it resistance to pain, or the ability to regrow damaged flesh. Special rules allow snipers to target the weak spots of their foes, scouts to range ahead of the army and anti-aircraft guns to blow flyers out of the sky."

So when applying rules to a Model they should be applied in the order of

1: Basic rules.
2: Advanced rules.
3: Special rules.
4: Codex special rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
You must ignore the parenthetical - if you don't you're parsing the rule ignoring grammar.

Less Smarmy please.

I think your list is a bit off, but can work with this.

1: Player Declears shots at Flyer.
2: Weapon Range checks for Target in Range.
3:Heavy Rule checks for movement in prior Movement Phase.
4: Snap Shots rule Modifies BS from Normal (BS of 3) to (BS of 1) by forcing the model to Snap Shot.

Here is where you have issues. Heavy set the model to snap shot. Per the FAQ.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No

5: Skyfire Checks for legal Target.
6: Hard to Hit checks for Skyfire.
7: Markerlight Checks for Token.
8: Skyfire Checks for Normal BS (BS 3) As Snap Shots force the Model to not fire at Normal BS.

You have now just modified a BS that you are forbidden to do so without specific permission as Skyfire is a special rule.

9: Markerlight Modifies Normal (BS 3) to (BS 4)
10: Shot is Resolved at BS 4.

Markerlights have specific permission to modify a snap shot, so you would resolve it at the BS2

 BLADERIKER wrote:

So when applying rules to a Model they should be applied in the order of

1: Basic rules.
2: Advanced rules.
3: Special rules.
4: Codex special rules.

You've invented this. Nothing in the Special Rules section disagrees with what's on page 7.

rigeld2 wrote:
You must ignore the parenthetical - if you don't you're parsing the rule ignoring grammar.

Less Smarmy please.

Are you or are you not ignoring the rules of grammar by not ignoring the parenthetical?

There should be a Stella-like award for the most frivolous arguments on the YMDC forums.

 Moridan wrote:
There should be a Stella-like award for the most frivolous arguments on the YMDC forums.

Certainly the most stubborn argument.
4 pages with not a single person agreeing with this interpretation.

Snap Shot: If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots. [Page 13]

Hard to Hit: Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42) [Page 81]

Skyfire: A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers,Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets. [Page 42]

Heavy Weapons: If a model carrying a Heavy weapon moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots (see page 13 for details). [Page 51]

I don't know why this has gone on 4 pages. This board has had it explained several times in the past how rules are applied. Such a large user base, I suppose people forget things...

Anyways, Heavy Weapons have a restriction. Restrictions always trump permission when the two are in conflict. "Specific" overrides "general", but remember that restrictions always trump permissions.

So... under the OPs interpretation... a skyray would ALWAYS fire ALL its weapons at "normal" BS no matter how it moved?

 cowmonaut wrote:

Snap Shot: If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots. [Page 13]

Hard to Hit: Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42) [Page 81]

Skyfire: A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers,Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets. [Page 42]

Heavy Weapons: If a model carrying a Heavy weapon moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots (see page 13 for details). [Page 51]

I don't know why this has gone on 4 pages. This board has had it explained several times in the past how rules are applied. Such a large user base, I suppose people forget things...

Anyways, Heavy Weapons have a restriction. Restrictions always trump permission when the two are in conflict. "Specific" overrides "general", but remember that restrictions always trump permissions.

I Read the thread and it was quite comprehensive. If What was said in the thread is in fact true, then why is there a on going thread regarding DS Landraiders and Assaults, as one of those Special Rules places a Restriction on Assaulting and the other gives you permission to Assault? Seems that either the findings of the Thread are not true in every situation, that those that are arguing for one side or the other are not aware of it, or that it has no bearing on conflicts that involves Special Rules.

As you have taken the time for me to fill out the necessary rules (For which I thank you) I shall try to elaborate on what I am seeing.

Skyfire (Special Rule) Is it Specific or General? Skyfire tells the model to use its normal ballistic skill when firing at those three unit types. 1: I interpret Skyfire as a Specific rule, because it simply tells the model to use the Normal Ballistic Skill. 2: Because it tells you which Unit Types it allows you to fire at Normal Ballistic Skill at. 3: Because it tells you which Unit Types you will fire Snap Shots at. 4: Because it tells you that you can ignore Snap Shots at the restricted Unit Types if you have Interceptor.

Heavy (Advanced Rule) restricts a Heavy Weapon that moved to only fire Snap Shots when firing in the following Shooting phase. 1: Heavy tells the model to use the Snap Snap rule if it moved. 2: I interpret Heavy as a Specific Rule as it targets only Weapons with the Heavy Rule.

Snap Shots (Basic Rule) When a model is Forced to fire a Snap Shot it is not shooting normally, and has its Ballistic Skill is Modified to Ballistic Skill 1. I interpret Snap Shots as a Specific rule because it tells you. 1: That you are not Shooting Normally. 2: That you are Forced to shoot at Ballistic Skill 1.

Hard to Hit (Advanced Rule) Hard to hit makes you fire Snap Shots when shooting at a Flyer/FMC, with the Exception that should a shot have the Skyfire rule the Hard to Hit rule has no effect. I interpret Hard to Hit as a Specific Rule as it gives the circumstances of which it will take effect and it will not take effect.

We also know that As per Page 32, Special Rules break/Trump Basic and Advanced rules in the case of a conflict, and that Codex rules take priority over BRB Special Rules.

Now that entire Thread on Specific vs. General, as I understood it, is about Basic rules and Advanced rules in conflict and which overrides which. Yes there are some very good points made in it. However, unless I am mistaken every Special rule (General or Specific) has Permission to Break the restrictions placed on a Model whether that restriction comes from a General Source or a Specific source, so long as that Source is not another Special Rule or Codex Special Rule.

I saw this and thought I would add this to it as I felt it applied.

Go to Ground (Basic Rule) Page 18 BRB. In the wording of the rule there is only one instance in which a Model that has gone to ground In the Prior Shooting Phase can act normally on its turn. It requires the Model/s to have failed there Moral Check and fallen back.

Moral Check (Basic Rule) Page 29 BRB. It tells you all the Circumstances that will require Moral Check.

If Marneus Calgar is the General of your UltraMarines Army/Allied Detachment then models with "Chapter Tactics" UltraMarines in the Army/ Allied Detachment can pass or fail any Moral Check. (Codex Special Rule, Page 105 SM, Codex)

And They Shall Know No fear (Special Rule) Page 33 BRB. Tells you that you will Automatically Rally and can act normally after you Rally.

So a 10 man tac Squad with "Chapter tactics" UltraMarines, with Calgar as their there General, Goes to ground and suffers 3 unsaved Wounds. They choose to Fail their Moral Check, Auto rally and can act normally at the start of their next movement Phase.

This is a Perfect example of Special Rule both Codex and BRB breaking the Restrictions placed upon the Models, by the Advanced and Basic Rules in play.

Special rules cannot modify the BS of a Snap Shot unless given specific permission, like Markerlights. Therefore Skyfire has no effect on a Snapshot caused by a Heavy weapon rule.

Seriously dude, you're wrong. Everyone has told you you're wrong, everyone has proven it to you beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt. Your desire to not accept that truth does not make you right. I regret ever reading his thread, and I'm placing you on ignore from this point on, you've successfully alienated me from you and probably everyone else as well to some degree based on your insistence that we are all wrong and you're somehow the martyred genius of 40k. Have fun playing out there.

BLADERIKER is clearly a troll, right? I mean, he has to be trolling everyone here. That's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with. Maybe it's time to stop feeding him?

Fragile wrote:
Special rules cannot modify the BS of a Snap Shot unless given specific permission, like Markerlights. Therefore Skyfire has no effect on a Snapshot caused by a Heavy weapon rule.

Where does it say that Skyfire Modifies the BS of the Snap Shot. Does it tell you to Modify the BS of the Shot?

Modifiers. Page 2 BRB. "Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristic positively by adding to it (+1 +2, ect.), Multiplying it (x2, x3, ect.) or even by setting its value (1,8, ect.). Attacks and Wounds are the only Characteristics that can be raised above 10. No characteristic can be modified below 0."

Skyfire tells you to use the normal Ballistic Skill of the Model. I take that to mean the Ballistic Skill in the stat Line. Skyfire does not state anything about Modifying the Ballistic Skill, only that you use the normal Ballistic Skill.

Snap Shots tells you that when forced to Fire a Snap Shot you are not firing normally. Meaning that Snap Shots is not the normal Ballistic Skill, but a Modified Ballistic Skill as described in the Modifiers rule on page 2 BRB.

I saw this and thought I would add this to it as I felt it applied.

Go to Ground (Basic Rule) Page 18 BRB. In the wording of the rule there is only one instance in which a Model that has gone to ground In the Prior Shooting Phase can act normally on its turn. It requires the Model/s to have failed there Moral Check and fallen back.

Moral Check (Basic Rule) Page 29 BRB. It tells you all the Circumstances that will require Moral Check.

If Marneus Calgar is the General of your UltraMarines Army/Allied Detachment then models with "Chapter Tactics" UltraMarines in the Army/ Allied Detachment can pass or fail any Moral Check. (Codex Special Rule, Page 105 SM, Codex)

And They Shall Know No fear (Special Rule) Page 33 BRB. Tells you that you will Automatically Rally and can act normally after you Rally.

So a 10 man tac Squad with "Chapter tactics" UltraMarines, with Calgar as their there General, Goes to ground and suffers 3 unsaved Wounds. They choose to Fail their Moral Check, Auto rally and can act normally at the start of their next movement Phase.

This is a Perfect example of Special Rules both Codex and BRB breaking the Restrictions placed upon the Models, by the Advanced and Basic Rules in play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

farrenj wrote:
BLADERIKER is clearly a troll, right? I mean, he has to be trolling everyone here. That's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with. Maybe it's time to stop feeding him?

Call me what you will, but I am looking at the rules and not seeing where you guys are are drawing your conclusion from.

Where does it say that Skyfire Modifies the BS of the Snap Shot. Does it tell you to Modify the BS of the Shot?

Your own sequence that You posted (which is wrong btw) shows that you modified the BS of 1 to a BS of 4.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Page 80 BRB "Hard to Hit" "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (Unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire Special rule, as described on page 42.)"

So if we reword the parenthetical phrase, using parallel language, it would say, "If the model/weapon has the Skyfire special rule, then it CAN be resolved using the model's normal BS." It does not say that it MUST be resolved in that manner, only that there are certain times when it will be, and certain times when it will not be. (That's what can means.)

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Page 80 BRB "Hard to Hit" "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (Unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire Special rule, as described on page 42.)"

So if we reword the parenthetical phrase, using parallel language, it would say, "If the model/weapon has the Skyfire special rule, then it CAN be resolved using the model's normal BS." It does not say that it MUST be resolved in that manner, only that there are certain times when it will be, and certain times when it will not be. (That's what can means.)

See at least you went out of your way to explain that.

Thank you.

Now as it seems that the entirety of community forum is saying that my original thesis "A heavy weapon that moved can use its normal Ballistic Skill to fire at a Flyer/Skimmer/FMC if and only if it has the Skyfire rule." Is not a Sound Argument. Now I could simply take the communities word for it let the matter go by the way side. My issue is that I cannot see where my logic is flawed, whether out of blind stubbornness, or misinterpretation of the rules. And I do not simply take anyone's word as the final say.

So let us presume that the Community is in fact right about this subject, and that my interpretation of the rules is flawed. I'll state what I see and by all means explain if I seeing it correctly or not. and No I do not plan to write out the rules verbatim again...they have been stated enough already.

Skyfire as I see it is a (Specific Rule),(Special Rule), That allows a model to fire at a Flyer, FMC, or Skimmer at its normal BS. As a (Special Rule) I see that Skyfire can break or bend other rules. What I do not see is how being instructed to use the normal BS of a model is in anyway Modifying the BS of the Model. That Leads into my next point.

What is a Normal Skill? Based on what the BRB states about Modifying stats/skills, I see that at any give time a Model may have a Stat/skill that is not considered its normal Stat/skill. This might be where I make a mistake due to the wording of my next point.

Snap Shots (Specific Rule),(Basic Rule), tells you that if you are forced to fire a Snap Shot you are not firing normally. I see this as saying that a Snap Shot is never the normal BS of the Model force to Snap Shot.

I have no issue with what Heavy states, as I fully agree that if you move a Heavy Weapon then you are forced to fire Snap Shots with it. My Issue is with Snap Shots not Heavy, as Heavy tells you why you must Snap Shot to begin with.

Originally I did not see the wording of Hard to Hit, After I read through it several times, I came to believe that Hard to hit can only take effect against shots if and only if those shots do not have the Skyfire Rule. Which further reinforced what I was seeing in the Skyfire rule, as Skyfire never stated it affected Hard to Hit. Thus showing me that the Snap Shot restriction from Hard to Hit was never applied when in the presence of Skyfire.

I then looked at the FAQ regarding Modifying Snap Shots, and it informed me that no special rule could ever modify the BS 1 of a Snap shot. Part of my counter argument to those saying that the FAQ makes the statement "Unless the Special Rule is given Permission" is that they needed to go and read the FAQ as that is not what was said in that FAQ answer. Thus causing me to have to run around in circles trying to show the error of the counter argument of that point. This leads to my next point.

I then checked to see if the Skyfire rule was in fact Modifying the stat/skill, which is expressly forbidden by the FAQ. First I checked the rules on Modifying stats/skills, I did not see where or how Skyfire was forcing a Stat/Skill change, Then I looked at Snap Shots to see what it said, and I took it to mean that When Firing a Snap Shot the model is not firing normally. So then I applied what I thought to be true.

Snap Shots Modifies a BS from its Normal BS to that of BS 1 (Seems right)
Skyfire tells the model to use its normal BS. (Seems Right)
So Snap Shots is saying that BS 1 is not the Normal BS, and Skyfire is telling the Model to use its Normal BS. (This is where the Conflict it, as I see it.).

I then applied what I knew about Special Rules breaking Basic/Advanced Rules and Thus came to my conclusion, that my thesis is sound.

Hopefully, and without degrading to a state of petty name calling, someone can show me where my logic is flawed, or where I am misinterpreting the rules as written. Even that may not resolve what I believe I am seeing, but I have tried to show my logic.

This may, or may not require a GW FAQ, though I doubt it will.

Skyfire is a modifier as well - setting the value from 1 to your "normal" BS

Part of my counter argument to those saying that the FAQ makes the statement "Unless the Special Rule is given Permission" is that they needed to go and read the FAQ as that is not what was said in that FAQ answer

What part of "no special rule can modify the BS of a snap shot" are you unclear on. If Heavy weapons set your BS to 1, no special rule (which Skyfire is, as you spent so much time telling us) can change that BS.

"Unless the Special Rule is given Permission"

This is the standard of a permissive rule set. If you do not understand this, then that is why you do not understand why you are wrong.

Snap Shots Modifies a BS from its Normal BS to that of BS 1 (Seems right)
Skyfire tells the model to use its normal BS. (Seems Right)
So Snap Shots is saying that BS 1 is not the Normal BS, and Skyfire is telling the Model to use its Normal BS. (This is where the Conflict it, as I see it.).

Skyfire states to use the normal BS when firing at Flyers, instead of Snap Shot as required by Hard to Hit. It does not set your BS to anything, even if it did, the FAQ would kick in and deny you.
Heavy weapons would then kick in and Set the BS to 1, since set modifiers are last.