"Heavy" type weapons and skyfire

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**Fragile**

Imperator_Class wrote:
Wow how is this argument still going?

The same as 99% of all arguments on this forum go

**BLADERIKER**

Nem wrote:
I think Grendel had the best explination here, if you skyfire overrides heavy restrictions then I can also deepstrike a skimmer in and assualt you strait away and all sorts of game breaking fun.

This is not relevant to this topic. Assulting from a DS cannot happen as both the Model DSing and the unit in the transport count as having moved at Cruising speed.

**Fragile**

You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

**BLADERIKER**

Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

**Happyjew**

BLADERIKER wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

So I can assault out of a Drop Pod then? After all, Drop Pods are Open-topped and thus have the Assault Vehicle special rule. Therefore, if I disembark from a DP, I can assault, right?

**Bobaram**

BLADERIKER wrote:
Bobaram wrote:
Agreed with Grendel. You can ignore the Snapshot requirement as a result of Skyfire when shooting at the flyer. However, skyfire does not remove the restriction on Heavy Weapons and their rules.

Page 51: When shooting, a model with a Heavy weapon shoots the number of times indicated. If a model moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots (see page 13 for details) Remember wthat weapons with the Blast special rule cannont fire Snap Shots. Models that shoot with Heavy weapons in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing Assault Phase.

Page 53: Chart Heavy Weapons (Firer Cannot Assault) Shows nifty picture of range and Stationary vs. Moving. Arrow shows for Moving Maximum range of weapon, but fire as a snap shot. Little box next to it If a model with a Heavy weapon remains Stationary, it can fire the number of times indicated (at his normal ballistic skill) up to the maximum range of the weapon. If the firer moved, the shot will only hit on a 6, as it is a Snap Shot (fired at Ballistic Skill 1)

Page 13: Snap Shots : Under certain circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots - Opportunistic bursts of fire 'snapped' off in the general direction of the target. The most comon occurence of a Snap Shot is when a model with a Heavy weapon, such as a heavy bolter, moves and shoots in the same turn (see page 51 for more on heavy weapons). If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, then it's Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

Page 49: Hard to Hit A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule. (See Page 42).

Page 81: Hard to Hit Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42).

Page 32: Second Paragrah: Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a Special Rule.

Page 42: Sky Fire A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, uses its Normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor Special Rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets.

Page 57: Flakk Missile - Heavy 1, Skyfire

The Weapon itself has both the Heavy Rule and the Skyfire Rule. You must use both rules when firing the weapon. For instance were you to target the Flakk Missile at something other than a Flyer, Flying Monstrous Creature or Skimmer it would be treated as a snap shot due to not having the Interceptor Special Rule. Or per the Heavy Rule you would not be able to charge in the following Assault Phase if you fire the Weapon.

Both rules are exclusive to themselves and independent of each other Skyfire does not change the rules and requirements of Heavy and Heavy can't change the rules and requirements of Skyfire. This does not mean that Skyfire ignores rules and situations cause by Heavy. Per the Flying Monstrous Creature and Flyer Sections you are allowed to fire at Normal BS against them with the Skyfire Special Rule. Per the Heavy Weapon rule, which does not mention a target, you are forced to fire the weapon as a snap shot if you move. Not because you are shooting at a flyer, but because you moved.

So there are two situations causing you to Snap Shot
1) You are shooting at a flyer
2) You moved with a Heavy Weapon

The Skyfire Rule allows you to shoot at normal Ballistic Skill at a Flyer due to it's special rule wording. Negating Situation 1.
The Heavy rule forces you to snap shoot, as a result of movement.

Skyfire is in regards to the situation of shooting at a flyer and thus alters the rules within those flyer sections stating you must make a Snap Shot when shoot at them. It does not reference within itself the Heavy Rule, which is what is Forcing you to Snap Shoot, and it does not reference a change to the snap shooting rules, so it can't change that rule.

As you have already posted all the rules I will point out that the "Heavy" Rule is a general rule and thus can be broken by the Skyfire Special Rule.

Heavy only states that if you move you fire snap shots, and that is the only restriction that heavy gives.

Hard to Hit also references Snap shots as the only way to fire at a flyer.

No where in the snap shot rule as written does it state that you can ignore or disregard the Skyfire Special rule under certain circumstances.

No where on the Movement chart does it show a Weapon with Skyfire and how movement effects it.

No where in the skyfire rule as written does it state that it only ignores those snap shots caused by shooting at a flyer and no other situations, it only states that you use your normal BS to fire at Flyers/FMCs/Skimmers. Also the "Heavy", "Hard to Hit", and "Snap shot" general rules as written state nothing about discounting or ignoring the Skyfire Special rule in anyway.

"Snap Shot" clearly states that if you are forced to make snap shots instead of shooting normally then you are BS 1. Meaning that if you are forced to make snap shots you are not shooting normally, and in the case of moving and "Heavy", shooting at a flying model, you are not shooting at your normal BS. Where as the Skyfire Special Rule explicitly states you use your normal BS when Firing/Shooting at Flyers/FMCs/skimmers.

The Skyfire Special Rule as written breaks all rules that restrict your BS when shooting at Flyers/FMCs/ Skimmers.

And as convoluted as that subject is, this is not the same as assaulting from a transport arriving from reserves, which is strictly forbidden as you cannot even disembark from a transport arriving from reserves as you have moved more than 6 in". This is about a Special Rule overriding sever general rules at once, which it is more than capable of doing as Special rules break General rules.

By all means quote me in the FAQ's and in the Rules where Snap shots as a rule is allowed to disregard the Skyfire Special Rule in if you move. Show me where I am wrong, but do not simply use a logical fallacy or adding to rules as written to prove your point.

As the Rules are written you can move a weapon with the "Heavy" Type and while firing and are force to Snap fire, if you have the Skyfire Special Rule and are firing at a Flyer/Skimmer/FMC, you use your normal BS.

Show me how the written Rules do not state that.

Page 7: Basic Versus Advanced, States that the Basic rules are on pages 10-31, therefore anything beyond that is an Advanced rule. "Heavy" therefore is not voided by a special rule as those only override Basic Rules that apply to all models, those listed on pages 10-31. It also lists that where Advanced rules, those not on Pages 10-31, apply to a specifc model, they always override any contradicting Basic Rules.

Therefore, Skyfire is allowed to break the rule of snap shot as it is a basic rule, but not the "Heavy" Rule as it is not a rule that falls within the BRB definition of a Basic Rule. So, Skyfire allows a normal BS shot at the vehicle and no snap shot in that regard, per the stated requirement that snap shot is considered a General Rule. It does not specifically mention voiding the "Heavy" rule and it does not specifically mention breaking the Snap Shot rule, and therefore can't break the "Heavy" rule requirement that the shot be taken per the Snap Shot rules. So while the model can shoot, and per Skyfire shoots at it's Normal BS when firing at fliers, it must obey the "Heavy" rule that the shot be fired per the Snap Shot rules and therefore ends up with a BS of 1.

Unless you can show where it's written that Skyfire voids Advanced Rules, or where it's written that it specifically negates Heavy.

**nosferatu1001**

BLADERIKER wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

Noone said that - however they only override what they specifically override

Nothing in the skyfire rule overrides the heavy rules snapshot requirement. Specific vs general - learn it, love it.

**rigeld2**

BLADERIKER wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

It absolutely can.
First there has to be a specific conflict. There isn't one here. Skyfire does not override Heavy.

**BLADERIKER**

Bobaram wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
Bobaram wrote:
Agreed with Grendel. You can ignore the Snapshot requirement as a result of Skyfire when shooting at the flyer. However, skyfire does not remove the restriction on Heavy Weapons and their rules.

Page 51: When shooting, a model with a Heavy weapon shoots the number of times indicated. If a model moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots (see page 13 for details) Remember wthat weapons with the Blast special rule cannont fire Snap Shots. Models that shoot with Heavy weapons in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing Assault Phase.

Page 53: Chart Heavy Weapons (Firer Cannot Assault) Shows nifty picture of range and Stationary vs. Moving. Arrow shows for Moving Maximum range of weapon, but fire as a snap shot. Little box next to it If a model with a Heavy weapon remains Stationary, it can fire the number of times indicated (at his normal ballistic skill) up to the maximum range of the weapon. If the firer moved, the shot will only hit on a 6, as it is a Snap Shot (fired at Ballistic Skill 1)

Page 13: Snap Shots : Under certain circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots - Opportunistic bursts of fire 'snapped' off in the general direction of the target. The most comon occurence of a Snap Shot is when a model with a Heavy weapon, such as a heavy bolter, moves and shoots in the same turn (see page 51 for more on heavy weapons). If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, then it's Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

Page 49: Hard to Hit A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule. (See Page 42).

Page 81: Hard to Hit Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42).

Page 32: Second Paragrah: Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a Special Rule.

Page 42: Sky Fire A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, uses its Normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor Special Rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets.

Page 57: Flakk Missile - Heavy 1, Skyfire

The Weapon itself has both the Heavy Rule and the Skyfire Rule. You must use both rules when firing the weapon. For instance were you to target the Flakk Missile at something other than a Flyer, Flying Monstrous Creature or Skimmer it would be treated as a snap shot due to not having the Interceptor Special Rule. Or per the Heavy Rule you would not be able to charge in the following Assault Phase if you fire the Weapon.

Both rules are exclusive to themselves and independent of each other Skyfire does not change the rules and requirements of Heavy and Heavy can't change the rules and requirements of Skyfire. This does not mean that Skyfire ignores rules and situations cause by Heavy. Per the Flying Monstrous Creature and Flyer Sections you are allowed to fire at Normal BS against them with the Skyfire Special Rule. Per the Heavy Weapon rule, which does not mention a target, you are forced to fire the weapon as a snap shot if you move. Not because you are shooting at a flyer, but because you moved.

So there are two situations causing you to Snap Shot
1) You are shooting at a flyer
2) You moved with a Heavy Weapon

The Skyfire Rule allows you to shoot at normal Ballistic Skill at a Flyer due to it's special rule wording. Negating Situation 1.
The Heavy rule forces you to snap shoot, as a result of movement.

Skyfire is in regards to the situation of shooting at a flyer and thus alters the rules within those flyer sections stating you must make a Snap Shot when shoot at them. It does not reference within itself the Heavy Rule, which is what is Forcing you to Snap Shoot, and it does not reference a change to the snap shooting rules, so it can't change that rule.

As you have already posted all the rules I will point out that the "Heavy" Rule is a general rule and thus can be broken by the Skyfire Special Rule.

Heavy only states that if you move you fire snap shots, and that is the only restriction that heavy gives.

Hard to Hit also references Snap shots as the only way to fire at a flyer.

No where in the snap shot rule as written does it state that you can ignore or disregard the Skyfire Special rule under certain circumstances.

No where on the Movement chart does it show a Weapon with Skyfire and how movement effects it.

No where in the skyfire rule as written does it state that it only ignores those snap shots caused by shooting at a flyer and no other situations, it only states that you use your normal BS to fire at Flyers/FMCs/Skimmers. Also the "Heavy", "Hard to Hit", and "Snap shot" general rules as written state nothing about discounting or ignoring the Skyfire Special rule in anyway.

"Snap Shot" clearly states that if you are forced to make snap shots instead of shooting normally then you are BS 1. Meaning that if you are forced to make snap shots you are not shooting normally, and in the case of moving and "Heavy", shooting at a flying model, you are not shooting at your normal BS. Where as the Skyfire Special Rule explicitly states you use your normal BS when Firing/Shooting at Flyers/FMCs/skimmers.

The Skyfire Special Rule as written breaks all rules that restrict your BS when shooting at Flyers/FMCs/ Skimmers.

And as convoluted as that subject is, this is not the same as assaulting from a transport arriving from reserves, which is strictly forbidden as you cannot even disembark from a transport arriving from reserves as you have moved more than 6 in". This is about a Special Rule overriding sever general rules at once, which it is more than capable of doing as Special rules break General rules.

By all means quote me in the FAQ's and in the Rules where Snap shots as a rule is allowed to disregard the Skyfire Special Rule in if you move. Show me where I am wrong, but do not simply use a logical fallacy or adding to rules as written to prove your point.

As the Rules are written you can move a weapon with the "Heavy" Type and while firing and are force to Snap fire, if you have the Skyfire Special Rule and are firing at a Flyer/Skimmer/FMC, you use your normal BS.

Show me how the written Rules do not state that.

Page 7: Basic Versus Advanced, States that the Basic rules are on pages 10-31, therefore anything beyond that is an Advanced rule. "Heavy" therefore is not voided by a special rule as those only override Basic Rules that apply to all models, those listed on pages 10-31. It also lists that where Advanced rules, those not on Pages 10-31, apply to a specifc model, they always override any contradicting Basic Rules.

Therefore, Skyfire is allowed to break the rule of snap shot as it is a basic rule, but not the "Heavy" Rule as it is not a rule that falls within the BRB definition of a Basic Rule. So, Skyfire allows a normal BS shot at the vehicle and no snap shot in that regard, per the stated requirement that snap shot is considered a General Rule. It does not specifically mention voiding the "Heavy" rule and it does not specifically mention breaking the Snap Shot rule, and therefore can't break the "Heavy" rule requirement that the shot be taken per the Snap Shot rules. So while the model can shoot, and per Skyfire shoots at it's Normal BS when firing at fliers, it must obey the "Heavy" rule that the shot be fired per the Snap Shot rules and therefore ends up with a BS of 1.

Unless you can show where it's written that Skyfire voids Advanced Rules, or where it's written that it specifically negates Heavy.

First off See page 32 about Special Rules breaking other rules.

Secondly there are many rules in play right now that override several basic and advanced rules at the same time.

ATSKNF, Overrides the sweeping advance rule, if you do break and get away it overrides the less than 25% rally rule, it also overrides the snap shot and acting rules place upon a unit once they do rally normally. That is just one instance of a Special rule overriding seversl rules at once.

Now as I see it, the way most people are thinking is that Skyfire only removes the Snap shot rule caused by hart to hit. So then what happens if a flakk missile (Carried by a Marine) moved and fires at a Skimmer? The Normal BS is say 5 and due to moving the marine will snap firing at BS 1 at a skimmer. The normal BS against the Skimmer is 5 modified by Snap Shot to BS 1, there is only one instance the snap shot restriction in play at this time, and you will never have to normally Snap shot at a Skimmer as they do not have the hard to hit rule. As there is only one snap shot restriction on the model at this time Skyfire would then (as you all have been insisting) remove the one instance of snap shot and the heavy weapon would fire at the skimmer at its normal BS of 5 instead of the snap shot BS of 1.

All I have seen so far in the criticism of my argument is nearly everyone committing the Fallacy of confirming the antecedent. That is not a sound criticism.

**rigeld2**

No, Skyfire removes the one type of restriction. It doesn't remove non-Hard to Hit restrictions.

**nosferatu1001**

Again: specific vs genberal. Skyfire does not specifically state it overrides the Heavy snapshot, so it doesn't do so

**BLADERIKER**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

Noone said that - however they only override what they specifically override

Nothing in the skyfire rule overrides the heavy rules snapshot requirement. Specific vs general - learn it, love it.

And nothing in the Snap Shot rule (Which is the rule referenced by Heavy telling you to see this rule after you move) says it overrides the Skyfire rule.

Nor Does anything in the heavy rule state that it overrides the Skyfire rule now does it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, Skyfire removes the one type of restriction. It doesn't remove non-Hard to Hit restrictions.

Where does it say that in the BRB?

**rigeld2**

BLADERIKER wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

Noone said that - however they only override what they specifically override

Nothing in the skyfire rule overrides the heavy rules snapshot requirement. Specific vs general - learn it, love it.

And nothing in the Snap Shot rule (Which is the rule referenced by Heavy telling you to see this rule after you move) says it overrides the Skyfire rule.

Now does it.

It's not overriding the Snap Shot rule. Nothing is.
The fact that Heavy is forcing a Snap Shot has nothing to do with Skyfire.

**BLADERIKER**

rigeld2 wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

Noone said that - however they only override what they specifically override

Nothing in the skyfire rule overrides the heavy rules snapshot requirement. Specific vs general - learn it, love it.

And nothing in the Snap Shot rule (Which is the rule referenced by Heavy telling you to see this rule after you move) says it overrides the Skyfire rule.

Now does it.

It's not overriding the Snap Shot rule. Nothing is.
The fact that Heavy is forcing a Snap Shot has nothing to do with Skyfire.

And the fact that Skyfire says you use the normal BS does not care about the restrictions that heavy may or may not put on the weapon.

**nosferatu1001**

OK, so why are you overriding Heavy with out explicit permission in the Skyfire rule?

One rule overrides another if it specifically states it does. Your example of ATSKNF was absolutely apt, as it specifies that it overrides Sweeping Advance

Page and para where the skyfire rule states it overrides Heavy making you snapshot

(You cannot find it - you have two sources of Snapshot, and only one is lifted)

**rigeld2**

BLADERIKER wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

Noone said that - however they only override what they specifically override

Nothing in the skyfire rule overrides the heavy rules snapshot requirement. Specific vs general - learn it, love it.

And nothing in the Snap Shot rule (Which is the rule referenced by Heavy telling you to see this rule after you move) says it overrides the Skyfire rule.

Now does it.

It's not overriding the Snap Shot rule. Nothing is.
The fact that Heavy is forcing a Snap Shot has nothing to do with Skyfire.

And the fact that Skyfire says you use the normal BS does not care about the restrictions that heavy may or may not put on the weapon.

It really does. If you're using your normal BS you are not snap firing and therefore breaking the Heavy rule.

**Happyjew**

BLADERIKER,

Can a unit assault out of a Land Raider the turn it arrives via Deep Strike?

**BLADERIKER**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
OK, so why are you overriding Heavy with out explicit permission in the Skyfire rule?

One rule overrides another if it specifically states it does. Your example of ATSKNF was absolutely apt, as it specifies that it overrides Sweeping Advance

Page and para where the skyfire rule states it overrides Heavy making you snapshot

(You cannot find it - you have two sources of Snapshot, and only one is lifted)

Skyfire states you use your normal BS when firing at flyer/FMC/ and SKimmers. and in the case of skimmers there is only one instance of snap shot rule in play.

Because Skyfire tells you to use your normal BS when firing at these three types of units, that is where the permission comes from to override the Heavy rule and snap firing, because you are not using your normal BS when you Snap fire no matter how many stacks of Snap fire/blind, or whatever causes your BS to be modified whether positive or negative that phase you are not using your normal BS. Skyfire clearly states that you use your Normal BS when firing at those three unit types.

As per your example of two instances of Snap shot, if there is only one instance of Snap shot as in firing at a skimmer with a moving heavy weapon with skyfire then by your logic and based on what you have said the heavy snap shot would be removed by Skyfire and the Missile would hit at Normal BS. In this case there is one and only one source of Snap Shot, which by your logic would be removed by Skyfire.

Show me in the BRB where "Heavy" or Snap Shot specifically states that it overrides or has permission to override Skyfire when firing at one of the three unit types that skyfire affects.

You Cannot either and you know it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
BLADERIKER,

Can a unit assault out of a Land Raider the turn it arrives via Deep Strike?

No the model and the units in transport count as having moved at Cruising speed and cannot disembark. And this has nothing to do with this argument.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
Fragile wrote:
You have two restrictions causing you to fire as a Snap Shot. Skyfire overrides only one of them. Nothing you have suggested allows the other restriction to be lifted.

Where in the rules does it state that a Special Rule can only override one restriction?

page and Paragraph Por Favor.

Noone said that - however they only override what they specifically override

Nothing in the skyfire rule overrides the heavy rules snapshot requirement. Specific vs general - learn it, love it.

And nothing in the Snap Shot rule (Which is the rule referenced by Heavy telling you to see this rule after you move) says it overrides the Skyfire rule.

Now does it.

It's not overriding the Snap Shot rule. Nothing is.
The fact that Heavy is forcing a Snap Shot has nothing to do with Skyfire.

And the fact that Skyfire says you use the normal BS does not care about the restrictions that heavy may or may not put on the weapon.

It really does. If you're using your normal BS you are not snap firing and therefore breaking the Heavy rule.

Which is exactly what a Special Rule such as Skyfire does it breaks the rules. As per page 32. Thank you for confirming what is written on Page 32 of the BRB

**Happyjew**

BLADERIKER wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
BLADERIKER,

Can a unit assault out of a Land Raider the turn it arrives via Deep Strike?

No the model and the units in transport count as having moved at Cruising speed and cannot disembark. And this has nothing to do with this argument.

Apparently, you need to review the Deep Strike rules, specifically the very first sentence after the bullet list.

And this applies perfectly to the argument at hand.

**Bobaram**

I had a huge rebuttal, but it's obvious you just don't want to be wrong no matter what. Have a nice day, you win, go forth and argue this at a tournament.

**Imperator_Class**

Ok, im going to compartmentalise this. Forget the skyfire for a second. Unless you are relentless or SnP, can you ever fire anything other then snap shots after moving with a heavy weapon?

**rigeld2**

BLADERIKER wrote:
Which is exactly what a Special Rule such as Skyfire does it breaks the rules. As per page 32. Thank you for confirming what is written on Page 32 of the BRB

What rules does Skyfire break?
Hmmm I wonder how we know. Oh! It does what the rule says!
Does your BRB mention anything about Skyfire ignoring Heavy's rules? Mine doesn't.

**BLADERIKER**

Bobaram wrote:
You have yet to show anywhere in he rules at all where it says skyfire does what you say, all you keep doing is telling us to come up with more reasons why your wrong and putting forth a different argument every time you are proven wrong, with out actually offering a rebuttal. Furthermore it still does not say mo snap shot anywhere in any of the verbiage you've used and neither does it reference any instance of skyfire overriding anything other than the statement that says within flyer that you don't have to snap shoot. And even then it references skyfire it makes no mention in that passage of a rule bypassing another special or advanced rule. If you're going to claim we're all wrong because what we say isn't spelled out specifically in a manner you like you don't get to claim that you're right for the exact same reason. That's not a debate, a question or an argument, it's you just telling everyone they're wrong because you don't like it.

Your opinion is noted, yet I have not changed my stance on this argument, in spite of all the criticism. Normal BS as I stated before is the BS on the Models Stat line, go back and look to see if I said different. Snap firing modifies the BS to a BS of 1 from whatever it was, no matter how many instances of a Stat being modified, or sources that modify a Stat your Normal Stat is the one on the Models Stat Line. When a Rule tells you to use the models normal (Fill in the Stat) you do not use the modified stat you use the Models normal Stat from the Stat line barring a Psychic power that prenatally alters a Stat for the duration of the game, than and only then is the normal Stat changed to the modified stat.

What really needs to be proven here is what is the Definition of a Normal Stat (WS/BS/T) and not what counts as a normal stat but what IS a Normal Stat.

As for Skyfire it states you use the models Normal BS for firing at those three units, it does not state under what circumstances you are not allowed to fire at your Normal BS at those three types of units, only that you fire at the models Normal BS when shooting at those units. It gives a caveat regarding shooting at unit types that are not those three types of unit, and that if you choose to do so you will be snap firing, unless you posses the interceptor Special Rule.

That is what I have been saying from the get go and that is the argument.

**rigeld2**

Skyfire does not lift the restriction that Heavy applies. Snap shots cannot be modified. Therefore trying to ignore the Snap Shot restriction breaks a rule.

**d-usa**

The normal BS is the BS plus the special rule of Heavy. BS 1 is the BS the model would normally use of it was firing at any model on the table after having moved. That's the normal stat for a moving heavy weapon.

In addition to that shooting at a flyer further modifies your BS to 1 because of Hard to Hit. Skyfire removes the snap fire penalty for shooting at the flyer and allows you to use the same BS you would use if you were shooting a non-flyer unit.

Which is 4 for a stationary Heavy weapon, and 1 for a moving Heavy weapon.

**Happyjew**

BLADERIKER, have you re-read the Deep Strike rules, and do you still stand by your previous answer regarding assaulting out of a deep striking land raider.

**BLADERIKER**

rigeld2 wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
Which is exactly what a Special Rule such as Skyfire does it breaks the rules. As per page 32. Thank you for confirming what is written on Page 32 of the BRB

What rules does Skyfire break?
Hmmm I wonder how we know. Oh! It does what the rule says!
Does your BRB mention anything about Skyfire ignoring Heavy's rules? Mine doesn't.

Then you must have a 5th ed BRB In which case I feel sorry for you.

Also if I recall Skyfire is a Special Rule, furthermore if I recall correctly as per page 32 of the BRB Special Rules have permission to break/bend or flat out ignore rules in the BRB. At this point you are arguing about how the BRB tells you that Special rules break rules but that this Special rule needs extra special permission to break rules. Simply put Special Rules Break/Bend All other Game rules.

The Heavy rule itself does not mention Skyfire in any way nor does it modify in any way the BS of a Model that moves, What alters the BS in the Heavy rule is the Snap Shot rule. So "Heavy refers you to Snap Shot; Snap Shot modifies the BS to 1, and Skyfire Tells you to use the Normal BS, not the Modified, or the current BS but the Normal BS of the model.

As for General vs. Specific rules how much more Specific does "Use the models Normal BS' have to be, there is nothing general about that? You either use the normal BS or you do not there is nothing in between.

**grendel083**

BLADERIKER wrote:
Where in the written rules does it state that a Special Rule cannot override several general rules at one time? Please give correct citation.

Where does it say it overrides all restrictions, or more than one?
Or anything other than the restriction the rule refers to?

**BLADERIKER**

Happyjew wrote:
BLADERIKER, have you re-read the Deep Strike rules, and do you still stand by your previous answer regarding assaulting out of a deep striking land raider.

I wonder where you are trying to take this? I have read the rules and I have seen what they say on page 36. I stand by what I said. The rules are very clear about this a unit Arriving from DS or that Disembarked from a unit that DS cannot assault in that turns assault phase. That is what it states on page 36. Or did you mean reserves? if you meant reserves then after placing the Landraider on the field you have moved more than 6 in' and cannot disembark as per the disembarking rules for vehicles. is that what you meant?

**rigeld2**

BLADERIKER wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
BLADERIKER wrote:
Which is exactly what a Special Rule such as Skyfire does it breaks the rules. As per page 32. Thank you for confirming what is written on Page 32 of the BRB

What rules does Skyfire break?
Hmmm I wonder how we know. Oh! It does what the rule says!
Does your BRB mention anything about Skyfire ignoring Heavy's rules? Mine doesn't.

Then you must have a 5th ed BRB In which case I feel sorry for you. Also if I recall Skyfire is a Special Rule, furthermore if I recall correctly as per page 32 of the BRB Special Rules have permission to break/bend or flat out ignore rules in the BRB. At this point you are arguing about how the BRB tells you that Special rules break rules but that this Special rule needs extra special permission to break rules. Simply put Special Rules Break/Bend All other Game rules.

No, I have the 6th edition book thanks. Please quote the rule that allows Skyfire to ignore Heavy. You've asserted it exists in your rulebook.
They have the ability to bend/break rules.
Without Skyfire, what does a model fire at a Flyer as? BS1.
Skyfire allows a model to break that rule. According to you a model with Adamantium Will ignores Hard to Hit. It's a special rule after all and they can break any rule right?

The Heavy rule itself does not mention Skyfire in any way nor does it modify in any way the BS of a Model that moves, What alters the BS in the Heavy rule is the Snap Shot rule. So "Heavy refers you to Snap Shot; Snap Shot modifies the BS to 1, and Skyfire Tells you to use the Normal BS, not the Modified, or the current BS but the Normal BS of the model.

So you're attempting to modify the BS of a model that must Snap Shot? Illegal.

As for General vs. Specific rules how much more Specific does "Use the models Normal BS' have to be, there is nothing general about that? You either use the normal BS or you do not there is nothing in between.

Context says you use the normal BS instead of a Snap Shot when firing at a flier.