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 grendel083 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Where in the written rules does it state that a Special Rule cannot override several general rules at one time? Please give correct citation.

Where does it say it overrides all restrictions, or more than one?
Or anything other than the restriction the rule refers to?

Then we have no choice other than to agree to disagree, you cannot bring to bear what I ask and I cannot bring to bear what you ask, so sadly until they FAQ it there is no right answer.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
BLADERIKER, have you re-read the Deep Strike rules, and do you still stand by your previous answer regarding assaulting out of a deep striking land raider.

I wonder where you are trying to take this? I have read the rules and I have seen what they say on page 36. I stand by what I said. The rules are very clear about this a unit Arriving from DS or that Disembarked from a unit that DS cannot assault in that turns assault phase. That is what it states on page 36. Or did you mean reserves? if you meant reserves then after placing the Landraider on the field you have moved more than 6 in' and cannot disembark as per the disembarking rules for vehicles. is that what you meant?

Apparently I have to break it down then.

A squad of terminators are in land raider. The land raider deep strikes. The unit disembarks (as they are allowed to per the DS rules). Land raiders have the "Assault Vehicle" special rule. Can the unit assault? Why or why not?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Which is exactly what a Special Rule such as Skyfire does it breaks the rules. As per page 32. Thank you for confirming what is written on Page 32 of the BRB

What rules does Skyfire break?
Hmmm I wonder how we know. Oh! It does what the rule says!
Does your BRB mention anything about Skyfire ignoring Heavy's rules? Mine doesn't.

Then you must have a 5th ed BRB In which case I feel sorry for you. Also if I recall Skyfire is a Special Rule, furthermore if I recall correctly as per page 32 of the BRB Special Rules have permission to break/bend or flat out ignore rules in the BRB. At this point you are arguing about how the BRB tells you that Special rules break rules but that this Special rule needs extra special permission to break rules. Simply put Special Rules Break/Bend All other Game rules.

No, I have the 6th edition book thanks. Please quote the rule that allows Skyfire to ignore Heavy. You've asserted it exists in your rulebook.
They have the ability to bend/break rules.
Without Skyfire, what does a model fire at a Flyer as? BS1.
Skyfire allows a model to break that rule. According to you a model with Adamantium Will ignores Hard to Hit. It's a special rule after all and they can break any rule right?

The Heavy rule itself does not mention Skyfire in any way nor does it modify in any way the BS of a Model that moves, What alters the BS in the Heavy rule is the Snap Shot rule. So "Heavy refers you to Snap Shot; Snap Shot modifies the BS to 1, and Skyfire Tells you to use the Normal BS, not the Modified, or the current BS but the Normal BS of the model.

So you're attempting to modify the BS of a model that must Snap Shot? Illegal.

As for General vs. Specific rules how much more Specific does "Use the models Normal BS' have to be, there is nothing general about that? You either use the normal BS or you do not there is nothing in between.

Context says you use the normal BS instead of a Snap Shot when firing at a flier.

And I have you in a Paradox right there. As you are stating Skyfire is Modifying the BS of the Snap shot which is illegal due to the FAQ regarding modifying snap shots. Which means that in all cases Skyfire must modify the BS which is expressly forbidden by the FAQ, Therefore Skyfire can never fire at a flyer at a Normal BS higher than 1. Meaning that Skyfire has no effect on snap shots at all.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
BLADERIKER, have you re-read the Deep Strike rules, and do you still stand by your previous answer regarding assaulting out of a deep striking land raider.

I wonder where you are trying to take this? I have read the rules and I have seen what they say on page 36. I stand by what I said. The rules are very clear about this a unit Arriving from DS or that Disembarked from a unit that DS cannot assault in that turns assault phase. That is what it states on page 36. Or did you mean reserves? if you meant reserves then after placing the Landraider on the field you have moved more than 6 in' and cannot disembark as per the disembarking rules for vehicles. is that what you meant?

Apparently I have to break it down then.

A squad of terminators are in land raider. The land raider deep strikes. The unit disembarks (as they are allowed to per the DS rules). Land raiders have the "Assault Vehicle" special rule. Can the unit assault? Why or why not?

See the DS entry in the Special rules section your answer is there.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
See the DS entry in the Special rules section your answer is there.

The answer would be no, for the same reason you can't move and fire heavy weapons at a flyer with sky flyer and not need 6's

P.S. Assault Vehicle is not a Special Rule. it might be an advanced rule or a basic rule but it is not a Special Rule found in the special rule section of the BRB.

Yes it is.

I know these aren't the answers you want, that's been very clear throughout. But sadly this is what they are.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
And I have you in a Paradox right there. As you are stating Skyfire is Modifying the BS of the Snap shot which is illegal due to the FAQ regarding modifying snap shots. Which means that in all cases Skyfire must modify the BS which is expressly forbidden by the FAQ, Therefore Skyfire can never fire at a flyer at a Normal BS higher than 1. Meaning that Skyfire has no effect on snap shots at all.

Skyfire has a specific allowance to fire at Flyers, etc. Therefore it can override that single restriction. It has no permission to override a Snap Shot due to a moving Heavy weapon.

See the DS entry in the Special rules section your answer is there.

Please quote it here.

 grendel083 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
See the DS entry in the Special rules section your answer is there.

The answer would be no, for the same reason you can't move and fire heavy weapons at a flyer with sky flyer and not need 6's

P.S. Assault Vehicle is not a Special Rule. it might be an advanced rule or a basic rule but it is not a Special Rule found in the special rule section of the BRB.

Yes it is.

I know these aren't the answers you want, that's been very clear throughout. But sadly this is what they are.

I did see that Assault Vehicles was a special rule and edited my response accordingly.

Skyfire does is not concerned about what the models modified BS, it is only concerned with the normal BS of model. That is why it a model with a heavy weapon that has skyfire can shoot at a flyer at normal BS even if it moved, The number of of Modifiers still does not change what the Normal BS is, and the wording of Skyfire only tells you to use the Normal BS, and Nothing else.

So you're saying you can assault out of a Land Raider that has arrived from reserve?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
And I have you in a Paradox right there. As you are stating Skyfire is Modifying the BS of the Snap shot which is illegal due to the FAQ regarding modifying snap shots. Which means that in all cases Skyfire must modify the BS which is expressly forbidden by the FAQ, Therefore Skyfire can never fire at a flyer at a Normal BS higher than 1. Meaning that Skyfire has no effect on snap shots at all.

Skyfire has a specific allowance to fire at Flyers, etc. Therefore it can override that single restriction. It has no permission to override a Snap Shot due to a moving Heavy weapon.

See the DS entry in the Special rules section your answer is there.

Please quote it here.

As I said before The argument regarding DS landraiders and Assaulting is a horse of a different color and is not the same as this argument, And here is why.

I am arguing that a Special Rule takes precedence over the basic/advanced rules being use to argue against it.

This other argument about DS landraiders and Assaults is about two Special rules in conflict with each other.

These two arguments are two very different things in and of themselves, there are some similarities I will give you that, but they are not the same and their outcome will have no bearing on the outcome of the other.

As for you first statement can you answer these?

Skyfire says that if you fire at a Flyer with a weapon/model using the skyfire special rule you use your normal BS. True of False?

Snap Shot says that you are firing at BS 1 instead of firing normally. True of False?

Heavy states that if you move you are firing Snap Shots. True of False?

It is not stated anywhere in the Skyfire Rule (Which as a Speicla Rule, is given Permission to break other game rules) that it only removes one source of Snap Shots when firing at a Flyer/FMC/Skimmer? True of False?

Are Special Rules given permission to break other game rules as. True or False?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
So you're saying you can assault out of a Land Raider that has arrived from reserve?

Sadly your attempt to draw me into an argument regarding two special rules, has no bearing on my argument regarding a special rule vs. general/advanced rules.

I and will not answer question regarding the DS landraider and assaults as it does not have any impact on this argument.

It has a lot of bearing.
You want your answer to be true, and refuse to look at anything that might say otherwise.

 grendel083 wrote:
It has a lot of bearing.
You want your answer to be true, and refuse to look at anything that might say otherwise.

The DS Landraider and Assaulting has nothing in common with my argument.

Deep Strike is a Special Rule. True or False?

Assault Vehicle is a Special Rule. True of False?

This argument you are trying in vain to drag me into is about a Conflict between two Special Rules and which takes priority, and the only way you will find resolution is in a GW FAQ regarding the subject, much like the FNP vs. Force Weapon debate. Two special Rules required a GW FAQ to resolve the conflict between them once and for all.

With that said.

Skyfire is a Special Rule. True or False?

Snap Shot is a General Game Rule. True of False?

Heavy is a General/Advanced Game Rule. True or False?

The Hierarchy of which Rules supersede which is: Codex>Special>Advanced>General. True of False?

My argument is regarding a Special Rule breaking several General Rules, which as the BRB has clearly stated, Special Rules can break General rules and are given permission to do so.

My argument can be resolved without a GW FAQ (Though it might be necessary anyway) Since the rules as written seem to favor my argument. Contrary to popular conditioning.

With that said your argument cannot be resolved by any comment I add to it. There are two sides to your argument and until GW has its say both sides could be right in their stance.

It's not a conflict.
It's two sets of restrictions.
Skyfire overrides one restriction, the one it mentions: shooting at a flyer.
So yes, they are comparable.

You've now had 3 pages where not a single person has agreed with your interpretation. Why start the debate, if you don't want to hear the answer?

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It has a lot of bearing.
You want your answer to be true, and refuse to look at anything that might say otherwise.

The DS Landraider and Assaulting has nothing in common with my argument.

Deep Strike is a Special Rule. True or False?

Assault Vehicle is a Special Rule. True of False?

This argument you are trying in vain to drag me into is about a Conflict between two Special Rules and which takes priority, and the only way you will find resolution is in a GW FAQ regarding the subject, much like the FNP vs. Force Weapon debate. Two special Rules required a GW FAQ to resolve the conflict between them once and for all.

With that said.

Skyfire is a Special Rule. True or False?

Snap Shot is a General Game Rule. True of False?

Heavy is a General/Advanced Game Rule. True or False?

The Hierarchy of which Rules supersede which is: Codex>Special>Advanced>General. True of False?

My argument is regarding a Special Rule breaking several General Rules, which as the BRB has clearly stated, Special Rules can break General rules and are given permission to do so.

My argument can be resolved without a GW FAQ (Though it might be necessary anyway) Since the rules as written seem to favor my argument. Contrary to popular conditioning.

With that said your argument cannot be resolved by any comment I add to it. There are two sides to your argument and until GW has its say both sides could be right in their stance.

Dude, snap shots are set modifiers. They modify your basic statline to a set number, like how unwieldy changes your initiative to 1 no matter what. Same applies to the snap shots. It's a set modifier and changes your normal bs to 1.

So you have a missile launcher with flak missiles on a devastator marine. He moves, so heavy makes him fire a snap shot, changing his basic, normal bs to 1. But, this marine is also firing at a flyer, which usually also means a snap shot, but it does not in this case because the model has the Skyfire rule.

So even though the model may fire at his normal bs at the flyer, his normal bs is now 1 because he moved while firing a weapon with the heavy type.

 McNinja wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
It has a lot of bearing.
You want your answer to be true, and refuse to look at anything that might say otherwise.

The DS Landraider and Assaulting has nothing in common with my argument.

Deep Strike is a Special Rule. True or False?

Assault Vehicle is a Special Rule. True of False?

This argument you are trying in vain to drag me into is about a Conflict between two Special Rules and which takes priority, and the only way you will find resolution is in a GW FAQ regarding the subject, much like the FNP vs. Force Weapon debate. Two special Rules required a GW FAQ to resolve the conflict between them once and for all.

With that said.

Skyfire is a Special Rule. True or False?

Snap Shot is a General Game Rule. True of False?

Heavy is a General/Advanced Game Rule. True or False?

The Hierarchy of which Rules supersede which is: Codex>Special>Advanced>General. True of False?

My argument is regarding a Special Rule breaking several General Rules, which as the BRB has clearly stated, Special Rules can break General rules and are given permission to do so.

My argument can be resolved without a GW FAQ (Though it might be necessary anyway) Since the rules as written seem to favor my argument. Contrary to popular conditioning.

With that said your argument cannot be resolved by any comment I add to it. There are two sides to your argument and until GW has its say both sides could be right in their stance.

Dude, snap shots are set modifiers. They modify your basic statline to a set number, like how unwieldy changes your initiative to 1 no matter what. Same applies to the snap shots. It's a set modifier and changes your normal bs to 1.

So you have a missile launcher with flak missiles on a devastator marine. He moves, so heavy makes him fire a snap shot, changing his basic, normal bs to 1. But, this marine is also firing at a flyer, which usually also means a snap shot, but it does not in this case because the model has the Skyfire rule.

So even though the model may fire at his normal bs at the flyer, his normal bs is now 1 because he moved while firing a weapon with the heavy type.

You have fallen into the Paradox. If you set your BS to 1 and count it as your normal BS which will be BS 1 due to Snap Shot rule, and as per the FAQ, a special Rule can never Modify the BS 1 of a snap shot. Then there is never a circumstance where Skyfire will be anything other than BS 1 when firing at a flyer/Skimmer/FMC. Thus Skyfire which clearly states that you use your normal BS to fire at flyer/FMC/Skimmers cannot mean the modified BS is the normal BS or Skyfire is useless.

Secondly, while you are correct that taking an unwiledly weapon will set your Initiative of 3/4/5 ect...To 1,and that it will always be counted as you normal Initiative during the game, the model that has the weapon with the unwieldy Special rule enters the game at initiative 1 and is thus counted as initiative 1 at all times. this is a permanent change to the Stat-line that occurs before the model/s ever see play time due to a Item upgrade.

Snap Shot is a stat Line modifier that only happens under certain conditions, the Model with the Heavy weapon that has Skyfire when it is are placed on the game board has an unmodified BS which is whatever the BS is in the models Stat Line. Thus meaning that the Normal BS of the model is whatever the original stat is plus or minus any upgrades that are purchased for it before game play starts.When forced to Snap Shot instead of using your normal BS you use BS 1. Meaning that BS 1 from the Snap Shot rule is never the normal BS of the Firing Model (Unless the Model is naturally BS 1 at the start of the game)

Thus Skyfire allows the Firing model to use its normal BS when firing at Flyers/FMC/Skimmers.

Oi, BLADERIKER, answer my question. special rules aside, can a model EVER fire anything but snap shots with a heavy weapon after moving? Yes or no.

Wow, how did this reach 3 pages overnight?

There seems to be two prevailing criticisms to my statement that a heavy weapon with Skyfire can move and fire at a Flyer/FMC/Skimmer at Normal BS.

The First Criticism is based on whether or not the Skyfire rule has the permission to ignore the Snap Shot rule caused by the Heavy weapon Moving. Several people have stated that if you fire at Normal BS at a Flyer as a heavy weapon that has moved, you are breaking the Snap Shot rule caused by the Heavy rule. As I have more than once pointed out, The "Heavy" and the "Snap Shot" rule are both general game rules, which as per page 32 of the BRB clearly states that. Special Rules break or bend General Game rules and that is why they are in the Special Rule section of the BRB.

The Second Criticism is based on setting the normal BS to 1 as per the Snap Shot rule, and then stating that the new normal BS is 1. I have more than once tried to show that this breaks the Skyfire Special Rule. Here is why, If snap shots sets your Normal BS to 1, and Skyfire tells you to fire at your normal BS, then your normal BS while skyfiring must be 1 as that is your new normal BS, that is the only way to reconcile both rules to each other without conflict. Furthermore, the FAQ tells us that no Special rule can ever modify the BS 1 of a Snap Shot. Thus meaning that even the Skyfire Special Rule cannot modify the BS 1 of a Snap Shot. As the normal BS to fire at a flyer/FMC/Skimmer is 1, then Skyfire has no effect on the BS is and completely useless, and broken as a rule.

The first Criticism is trying to argue that General Rules cannot be broken by Special Rules.

The Second Criticism flat out breaks the Skyfire Rule.

Special Rules aside. The normal BS for firing at a Flyer/FMC is BS 1. The Normal BS for firing a Heavy Weapon that moved is BS 1. The normal BS for firing overwatch is BS 1. This is the BS all units in play must use when firing under these conditions. As per the Snap Shot General Rule. If we consider that the normal BS for firing at a Flyer is BS 1, and then we apply the Skyfire Special Rule we are now firing Skyfire as BS 1, because that is the Normal BS for Firing at a Flyer/FMC as per the General Rules. Now that seems to be the way many are reading the rules. Yet this is not the way we play the Skyfire Special Rule. With that said, The Skyfire Special Rule cannot mean that we are to use the BS 1 of the Snap shot as the normal BS, or Skyfire is useless and broken. Skyfire must be referencing something else as the normal BS it is referring to in the wording of its Rule. We know that due to the FAQ that no Special Rule can ever modify the BS 1 of Snap Shot. So what is the Normal BS that Skyfire is referring to? Well snap shots make reference to normal BS in, if you are forced to fire a snap shot then you are not firing normally. Thus the Snap Shot rule points us back to what the Normal BS is, as the normal BS is the BS you would fire if you were not forced to fire Snap Shots. So Skyfire must be referring to the Unmodified BS Stat found in the Models profile including any wargear that alters the BS before game play. With all that stated Skyfire breaks the snap shot rule letting the model with Skyfire fire at its normal BS at Flyers/Skimmers/FMC. Skyfire is not concerned about what the BS is modified to only what the Normal BS is.

Thus as I have stated before.

A heavy Weapon that has moved can fire at its normal BS only if shooting Skyfire at a Flyer/FMC/Skimmer. That is Rules as Written.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imperator_Class wrote:
Oi, BLADERIKER, answer my question. special rules aside, can a model EVER fire anything but snap shots with a heavy weapon after moving? Yes or no.

The answer is No it can not. The General Rules make it clear that if you move with a Heavy Weapon you must Snap Shot. And Snap Shot states that if you are forced to fire Snap Shots instead of firing normally then you fire at BS 1.

Note: that neither the "Heavy" nor the "Snap Shot" rules are Special Rules.

And nowhere in the special rule of Skyfire does it state that it affects the Heavy rule, so the penalty from Heavy is still in effect.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Thus Skyfire allows the Firing model to use its normal BS when firing at Flyers/FMC/Skimmers.

Sure, and then you check to see if your Firing model has moved with a Heavy Weapon. If it has, you resolve your shots at BS1.

It's really rather straightforward and I'm surprised you're still trying to defend your position. Usually I'm impressed when people are tenacious enough to stick to their guns (no pun intended) but this is getting a little uncomfortable to watch.

DoW

 d-usa wrote:
And nowhere in the special rule of Skyfire does it state that it affects the Heavy rule, so the penalty from Heavy is still in effect.

Special Rules aside. The normal BS for firing at a Flyer/FMC is BS 1. The Normal BS for firing a Heavy Weapon that moved is BS 1. The normal BS for firing overwatch is BS 1. This is the BS all units in play must use when firing under these conditions. As per the Snap Shot General Rule. If we consider that the normal BS for firing at a Flyer is BS 1, and then we apply the Skyfire Special Rule we are now firing Skyfire as BS 1, because that is the Normal BS for Firing at a Flyer/FMC as per the General Rules. Now that seems to be the way many are reading the rules. Yet this is not the way we play the Skyfire Special Rule. With that said, The Skyfire Special Rule cannot mean that we are to use the BS 1 of the Snap shot as the normal BS, or Skyfire is useless and broken. Skyfire must be referencing something else as the normal BS it is referring to in the wording of its Rule. We know that due to the FAQ that no Special Rule can ever modify the BS 1 of Snap Shot. So what is the Normal BS that Skyfire is referring to? Well snap shots make reference to normal BS in, if you are forced to fire a snap shot then you are not firing normally. Thus the Snap Shot rule points us back to what the Normal BS is, as the normal BS is the BS you would fire if you were not forced to fire Snap Shots. So Skyfire must be referring to the Unmodified BS Stat found in the Models profile including any wargear that alters the BS before game play. With all that stated Skyfire breaks the snap shot rule letting the model with Skyfire fire at its normal BS at Flyers/Skimmers/FMC. Skyfire is not concerned about what the BS is modified to(Via Penalties, or Bonuses)(Or where those Modifiers are coming from) only what the Normal BS is.

Thus Allowing A heavy Weapon that moved to fire skyfire at its normal BS against a Flyer/FMC/Skimmer.

I started off writing a big long post in my head, but once I got home and read through the relevant rules, I can understand where you are coming from. That is not to say I agree - I personally believe the rules aren't in conflict. Nowhere in the Skyfire rule does it give specific permission to ignore the conditions of firing a heavy weapon. You can 'sort of' infer that it does via the 'hard to hit' rule on p81 by virtue of not having to resolve snap shots but I believe this is a stretch and certainly not the only way to interpret the rule. My personal view is that it is possible to not break the rules at all simply by not firing the heavy weapon if you moved (since Hard to Hit + Skyfire combined technically disallow snap shots altogether, and Heavy Weapon moving ONLY allows snap shots). And when in doubt, I tend to side with an interpretation of the rules that breaks no rule at all.

It's hard to argue this issue to be honest. It seems so incredibly against the intent of the rules that heavy weapons would suddenly be able to move and fire for no good reason... it would mean that there would be no point whatsoever in any skyfire weapon having a heavy profile, right? They should all just become Assault, Skyfire or something? But that's not how this part of the forum works, so we can't try to argue intent. HIWPI is that a moving HW can still only fire snap shots even on flyers, and that's the only way I've seen it played (frankly never even considered otherwise before reading this thread).

In closing, I can see where you're coming from. I don't think your argument is completely without founding, but I think you would be very unlikely to ever find a tourney judge or other player who would agree with your interpretation.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
And nowhere in the special rule of Skyfire does it state that it affects the Heavy rule, so the penalty from Heavy is still in effect.

Special Rules aside. The normal BS for firing at a Flyer/FMC is BS 1. The Normal BS for firing a Heavy Weapon that moved is BS 1. The normal BS for firing overwatch is BS 1. This is the BS all units in play must use when firing under these conditions. As per the Snap Shot General Rule. If we consider that the normal BS for firing at a Flyer is BS 1, and then we apply the Skyfire Special Rule we are now firing Skyfire as BS 1, because that is the Normal BS for Firing at a Flyer/FMC as per the General Rules. Now that seems to be the way many are reading the rules. Yet this is not the way we play the Skyfire Special Rule. With that said, The Skyfire Special Rule cannot mean that we are to use the BS 1 of the Snap shot as the normal BS, or Skyfire is useless and broken. Skyfire must be referencing something else as the normal BS it is referring to in the wording of its Rule. We know that due to the FAQ that no Special Rule can ever modify the BS 1 of Snap Shot. So what is the Normal BS that Skyfire is referring to? Well snap shots make reference to normal BS in, if you are forced to fire a snap shot then you are not firing normally. Thus the Snap Shot rule points us back to what the Normal BS is, as the normal BS is the BS you would fire if you were not forced to fire Snap Shots. So Skyfire must be referring to the Unmodified BS Stat found in the Models profile including any wargear that alters the BS before game play. With all that stated Skyfire breaks the snap shot rule letting the model with Skyfire fire at its normal BS at Flyers/Skimmers/FMC. Skyfire is not concerned about what the BS is modified to(Via Penalties, or Bonuses)(Or where those Modifiers are coming from) only what the Normal BS is.

Thus Allowing A heavy Weapon that moved to fire skyfire at its normal BS against a Flyer/FMC/Skimmer.

The rules for snap shots even mentions moving with a Heavy weapon and it the firer's BS becomes 1. Just because Skyfire overrides the restriction of only firing Snap Shots against flyers does not mean it removes the restriction of firing Snap Shots because the model moved. While I can see where you are coming from, there is no rule that says a tactical marine who moved and fired a flak missile at a flyer can override the moving restriction for Heavy weapon, just for firing at a flyer.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Special Rules aside. The normal BS for firing at a Flyer/FMC is BS 1. The Normal BS for firing a Heavy Weapon that moved is BS 1. The normal BS for firing overwatch is BS 1. This is the BS all units in play must use when firing under these conditions.

Correct from a certain point of view, but ultimately an incorrect view of things because you can't separate special rules from the situation. (not quoting the rest as it's fundamentally wrong.)

The steps to resolve this are simple. Start with the stat line, then combine the situation (target/movement/etc) with special rules surrounding the firing unit, including weapon used, and target unit have. Here we have two situations that equally apply.

So, per stat line, we start with a BS of 4.

Target Unit
1. Target Type - Flyer - Everything fires snap shots against it. (ie: BS set to 1)

Firing Unit has 2 relevant special rules.
1. SkyFire - shoot at "normal" BS against flyers.
2. Heavy - Snap shots if moved (ie: BS set to 1)

When resolving we see that SkyFire cancels out the special rule about the target being a flyer. If that was the only rule we would stop there. However, the weapon is Heavy and is another set modifier to 1. We don't have another SR overriding the movement.

clively wrote:
When resolving we see that SkyFire cancels out the special rule about the target being a flyer. If that was the only rule we would stop there. However, the weapon is Heavy and is another set modifier to 1. We don't have another SR overriding the movement.

And that's what this is - an attempt to cancel out two Snapshot penalties with a rule that only grants excemption from one.

No different than the old Fleet rule that let you assault after running... where people tried to use it to also ignore the no assaulting penalty from disembarking, deep striking and what have you. They'd just fill several pages of forums by repeating "but my unit ran and has permission to assault" until someone locked it down.

clively wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Special Rules aside. The normal BS for firing at a Flyer/FMC is BS 1. The Normal BS for firing a Heavy Weapon that moved is BS 1. The normal BS for firing overwatch is BS 1. This is the BS all units in play must use when firing under these conditions.

Correct from a certain point of view, but ultimately an incorrect view of things because you can't separate special rules from the situation. (not quoting the rest as it's fundamentally wrong.)

The steps to resolve this are simple. Start with the stat line, then combine the situation (target/movement/etc) with special rules surrounding the firing unit, including weapon used, and target unit have. Here we have two situations that equally apply.

So, per stat line, we start with a BS of 4.

Target Unit
1. Target Type - Flyer - Everything fires snap shots against it. (ie: BS set to 1)

Firing Unit has 2 relevant special rules.
1. SkyFire - shoot at "normal" BS against flyers.
2. Heavy - Snap shots if moved (ie: BS set to 1)

When resolving we see that SkyFire cancels out the special rule about the target being a flyer. If that was the only rule we would stop there. However, the weapon is Heavy and is another set modifier to 1. We don't have another SR overriding the movement.

And there is the fundamental flaw in your argument, where everyone seems to think that Skyfire changes the BS of the Snap Shot from BS 1 back to what it was normally. Skyfire cannot Modify the BS of the Snap shot as per the FAQ regarding Snap Shot Modification and Specials rules.

If we presume that "Normal" means, that which everyone has to do in a situation. Then the Normal BS for Shooting as a Flyer, Moving a Heavy weapon, and overwatch is BS 1, and that is general rules as written.

Then we apply Skyfire, but if we are presuming the "Normal" part of normal BS is based on what everyone has to do in that situation, then Skyfire which has no permission to Modifiy/Alter the BS 1 of the Snap Shot, must use the normal BS, and that normal BS as per its wording will be using BS 1 (Because that is the Normal BS that everyone uses to fire at a flyer) Thus Skyfire is broken and useless.

If we presume that the "Normal" BS for which Skyfire is instructing us to use is Not the BS everyone must use in this situation then what is the normal BS to Which Skyfire is referring? The Normal BS is, the BS you would use if you were not forced to Snap shot.

Thus Skyfire first checks to see if you are firing at a legal target for Skyfire, and if you are then it checks to see what your BS is if you were not forced to Snap Shot.

Skyfire happens the Penalties for Snap Shot are applied. It should look something like this.

Heavy Weapon Moved, you must Snap Shot. (Happens First due to Movement Phase)
Firing at a flyer with a Heavy Weapon that Moved , you must Snap Shot (Happens Second Due to Shooting Phase)
Apply Skyfire.
Skyfire checks for Legal target if not found then firing as Snapshots.
If found Skyfire checks for Normal BS and resolves the shot at the normal BS of the Shooter.

Not once did Skyfire Modify the BS as it is not Given Permission to do so, all Skyfire did was Check to see what the Normal BS would be if you did not have to Snap Shot and that your Target was a legal target.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
And there is the fundamental flaw in your argument, where everyone seems to think that Skyfire changes the BS of the Snap Shot from BS 1 back to what it was normally. Skyfire cannot Modify the BS of the Snap shot as per the FAQ regarding Snap Shot Modification and Specials rules.

Unless it has specific permission. Skyfire does. Markerlights do.
Your argument has no basis in actual rules, just your misrepresented ones.

If none of these rule-lawyering regulars in YMDC are on your side, then you might really be out in left field...

Spetulhu wrote:

clively wrote:
When resolving we see that SkyFire cancels out the special rule about the target being a flyer. If that was the only rule we would stop there. However, the weapon is Heavy and is another set modifier to 1. We don't have another SR overriding the movement.

And that's what this is - an attempt to cancel out two Snapshot penalties with a rule that only grants excemption from one.

No different than the old Fleet rule that let you assault after running... where people tried to use it to also ignore the no assaulting penalty from disembarking, deep striking and what have you. They'd just fill several pages of forums by repeating "but my unit ran and has permission to assault" until someone locked it down.

Based on what you are saying then a Special Rule cannot override two different rules unless given permission.

So how does eternal Warrior Work then? As Double Toughness causes instance death and a weapon with Instant Death causes Instant Death. But Eternal Warrior is only given permission to ignore Instant Death and not double toughness?

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

clively wrote:
When resolving we see that SkyFire cancels out the special rule about the target being a flyer. If that was the only rule we would stop there. However, the weapon is Heavy and is another set modifier to 1. We don't have another SR overriding the movement.

And that's what this is - an attempt to cancel out two Snapshot penalties with a rule that only grants excemption from one.

No different than the old Fleet rule that let you assault after running... where people tried to use it to also ignore the no assaulting penalty from disembarking, deep striking and what have you. They'd just fill several pages of forums by repeating "but my unit ran and has permission to assault" until someone locked it down.

Based on what you are saying then a Special Rule cannot override two different rules unless given permission.

So how does eternal Warrior Work then? As Double Toughness causes instance death and a weapon with Instant Death causes Instant Death. But Eternal Warrior is only given permission to ignore Instant Death and not double toughness?

You answered it. Double toughness causes Instant Death. EW ignores ID. Regardless of how the ID is caused, EW ignores ID.
If EW ignored Double Toughness ID a Force weapon would still kill it.

If a model with Skyfire is firing at a Flyer, when is its BS set to 1?

If said model is a Tau with BS3 and the Flyer has a markerlight token on it, what BS does the hit resolve at ?

S double T causes Instant Death, the special rule. It is not the only way to get tot he special rule. Wrong analogy.

We are NOT saying what you oft repeat. We are saying one special rule only overrides another when it specifies that it does.

Skyfire overrides snapshot at flyers
Skyfire does not override snapshot due to moving with heavy weapons.