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nosferatu1001 wrote:
S double T causes Instant Death, the special rule. It is not the only way to get tot he special rule. Wrong analogy.

We are NOT saying what you oft repeat. We are saying one special rule only overrides another when it specifies that it does.

Skyfire overrides snapshot at flyers
Skyfire does not override snapshot due to moving with heavy weapons.

Where in the Skyfire, Heavy, or Snap Shot rules does it state that Skyfire is only allowed to ignore one source of snap shooting at a flyer?

There is only one rule so far that states that if you are firing Skyfire and have to snap shot that you must must Snap shot, and that is The Interceptor Rule, and you must have Skyfire and Interceptor for this situation to exist. Not one or the other.

No where in the Heavy Rule nor in the Snap Shot rule dose it state that Skyfire only counts against one of these rules.

Nor does it state in the Skyfire rule that it only overrides the Snap Shot penalty for Firing at a flyer, Only that you use your normal BS to fire at a Flyer.

And this is the argument as it stands.

Sadly what the majority is trying to prove has not swayed my interpretation, and conversely what I have tried to argue has not swayed the Majority. And no matter how much evidence one brings to an argument if the other side is not listening (This goes both way) or has stubbornly dug there feet in, then nothing will sway either party no matter the rightness or wrongness of what is being argued.

It has been proven through history that one person can have the correct view on something and be shunned or persecuted by the majority for questioning the norm, of course history is also full of people that think they are right and are in fact quite wrong.

Back to the debate at hand.

Again, youre missing the argument.

I never said they only ignore one. I said they only override what they specifically override.

Skyfire absoluitely overrides snapshots at flyers. Because it says it does. It doesnt say it ignores Heavy setting to snapshot, so it doesnt.

Thats all it comes down to.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Where in the Skyfire, Heavy, or Snap Shot rules does it state that Skyfire is only allowed to ignore one source of snap shooting at a flyer?

Where in the rules does it state I can't hit your models with a hammer?

There is only one rule so far that states that if you are firing Skyfire and have to snap shot that you must must Snap shot, and that is The Interceptor Rule, and you must have Skyfire and Interceptor for this situation to exist. Not one or the other.

No where in the Heavy Rule nor in the Snap Shot rule dose it state that Skyfire only counts against one of these rules.

Nor does it state in the Skyfire rule that it only overrides the Snap Shot penalty for Firing at a flyer, Only that you use your normal BS to fire at a Flyer.

In a permissive rule set you are only allowed to do what the rule actually says. Do the Skyfire rules say they cancel all Snap Shot requirements?

It has been proven through history that one person can have the correct view on something and be shunned or persecuted by the majority for questioning the norm, of course history is also full of people that think they are right and are in fact quite wrong.

It's also been proven in history that no matter how many people scream at the top of their lungs and question the majority, the planet is still round and the sky is still blue. Pretending you're some kind of martyr for arguing against the norm when you have no actual basis for your argument is silly.

Bladeriker, answer the following.

When does a Model with Skyfire have his BS set to 1?

A BS3 Tau model with skyfire shoots at a Flyer with a Markerlight token (which the unit uses to increase his BS). What BS is the shot resolved at.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
Where in the Skyfire, Heavy, or Snap Shot rules does it state that Skyfire is only allowed to ignore one source of snap shooting at a flyer?

To be clear the skyfire rule also only allows you to fire at normal BS when shooting at a flyier. It does not actually mention snap shots anywhere in the rule other then you must now shoot every ground target that way. As such the skyfire rule does not let you ignore the snap fire rule it only lets you ignore the hard to hit. Other wise are you suddenly saying that tanks with skyfire can also ignore shaken and stun results since those also force you to fire nothing but snap shots.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, youre missing the argument.

I never said they only ignore one. I said they only override what they specifically override.

Skyfire absoluitely overrides snapshots at flyers. Because it says it does. It doesnt say it ignores Heavy setting to snapshot, so it doesnt.

Thats all it comes down to.

Here is the Skyfire Rule as Written:

Page 42 BRB "Skyfire" "A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets."

So show me where in the Skyfire rule as written it states that it ignores the "Hard to Hit" rule or the "Snap Shot" rule. Because I am not seeing it. While I will agree that it says nothing regarding the "Heavy" rule. I will also point out the the "Heavy" rule does not state anything about Skyfire.


Page 51 BRB "Heavy Weapons" "When shooting, a model with the Heavy weapon shoots the number of times indicated. If a Model carrying a Heavy weapon moves in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase, but only as snap shots (See Page 13 for details). Remember that weapons with the Blast special rule cannot fire snap shots. Models that shoot Heavy weapons in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing Assault phase."

I am not seeing anything even closely resembling "Heavy" making a statement about Skyfire.

Both of these rules center around the "Snap Shot" rule.

Page 13 BRB "Snap Shots" "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots."

The Snap Shots rule clearly states, if you are Forced to Fire a Snap Shot you are not Shooting normally. Also note that the Snap Shots rules does not mention Skyfire in it.

So then we look at the "Hard to Hit" rule.

Page 80 BRB "Hard to Hit" "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (Unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire Special rule, as described on page 42.)"

"Hard to Hit" Tells you it does not count if being fired at by a Weapon or Model with Skyfire. It is not that Skyfire removed Hard to Hit it is that Hard to hit does not count in the Presence of Skyfire.

There is only one Rule that expressly tells us Skyfire will have to Snap Shot against Flyers and that is the Interceptor Rule.

Page 38 BRB "Interceptor" If a weapon has both the Interceptor and Skyfire special rules, it uses its full Ballistic Skill against all targets (unless it is firing Snap Shots)."

That is the only instance in which Skyfire is forced to fire Snap Shots in the Written rules.

Skyfire tells you to use your Normal BS. Snap Shots forces you to not use your normal BS.

Skyfire is a Special rule, Snap Shots is a general rule.

Skyfire breaks Snap Shots.

Moving Heavy Weapon tells you to use Snap Shots.

Skyfire breaks Snap Shots.

That is rules as Written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
Bladeriker, answer the following.

When does a Model with Skyfire have his BS set to 1?

A BS3 Tau model with skyfire shoots at a Flyer with a Markerlight token (which the unit uses to increase his BS). What BS is the shot resolved at.

Are you referring to its Normal BS or its possible Modified BS in game (From turn to turn)?

There are two answers to the first part of your question.

1: It is set to BS1 when firing at a Non-flyer,FMC,Skimmer units.

2: It has the Interceptor and Skyfire rules and is is under the effects of (Blind, Moving a Heavy Weapon, Rallying, Recovering from going to ground.)

The second part requires that we break down each of the rules in play one at the time when the shot is made.

The Flyer has Hard to Hit and I presume is Zooming(You did not state if was or was not) and has at least one Markerlight token on it.

The Tau Model I presume is not Relentless, is not Carrying a Heavy Weapon, has not Rallied, has not Recovered from going to Ground, is not in Close combat, and is not affected by the Blind Effect. The Tau Model is either carrying a weapon with the Skyfire Rule, Bought an upgrade that Gives it Skyfire, or is controlling a Skyfire Nexus. (As you did not state what the conditions of this shot were).

1: Tau Player declares shot on flyer.
2: Skyfire checks to see if Target is Legal.
3: Hard to Hit checks to see if Skyfire is Present.
4: Markerlight Checks to see if Token is Present.
5: Skyfire checks for Normal BS (BS3)
6: Markerlight Modifies Normal BS to (BS4)
7: Shot is Resolved at BS 4.

It was not until I Studied the Hard to Hit rule that I figured out that Hard to Hit checks to see if Skyfire is Present and not the other way around.

Skyfire only checks for two things.
1: Is it a Flyer, FMC, Skimmer.
2: What is the Normal BS of the firing Model.

Nothing else.

Now add in the fact that the model fired a Heavy Weapon and moved without Relentless or S&P etc and show that breakdown.

Hard to Hit doesn't check for Skyfire.
You're giving too much value to the parenthetical. Grammatically the parenthetical must be able to be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence. Your interpretation makes that impossible and therefore is not correct.

rigeld2 wrote:
Hard to Hit doesn't check for Skyfire.
You're giving too much value to the parenthetical. Grammatically the parenthetical must be able to be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence. Your interpretation makes that impossible and therefore is not correct.

So then Hard to Hit does not include in its rules a If/or Statement?

Well then what does Hard to Hit say.

Page 80 BRB "Hard to Hit" "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (Unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire Special rule, as described on page 42.)"

First thing Hard to Hit states "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots"

Then it gives a Exception ( An if/or Statement) to its own rule by Stating "(Unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire Special rule, as described on page 42.)"

Thus meaning that Hard to Hit Checks for Skyfire and not the other way around.

No where in the Skyfire rule does anything like, Skyfire ignores Hard to Hit, or Skyfire ignores Snap Shots appear. In both of those cases Skyfire would be checking for either Hard to Hit or Snap Shots which it clearly does not state.

To answer Fraglie:

It would look like this based on my interpretation of the rules.

Tau Broadside with High Yield Missile pods and Velocity Tracker that Moved in the Movement Phase. I presume the same set up before?

Start of Following Shooting Phase.


1: Player Declears shots at Flyer.
2: Weapon Range checks for Target in Range.
3:Heavy Rule checks for movement in prior Movement Phase.
4: Snap Shots rule Modifies BS from Normal (BS of 3) to (BS of 1) by forcing the model to Snap Shot.
5: Skyfire Checks for legal Target.
6: Hard to Hit checks for Skyfire.
7: Markerlight Checks for Token.
8: Skyfire Checks for Normal BS (BS 3) As Snap Shots force the Model to not fire at Normal BS.
9: Markerlight Modifies Normal (BS 3) to (BS 4)
10: Shot is Resolved at BS 4.

That is the answer.

 BLADERIKER wrote:
1: Player Declears shots at Flyer.
2: Weapon Range checks for Target in Range.
3:Heavy Rule checks for movement in prior Movement Phase.
4: Snap Shots rule Modifies BS from Normal (BS of 3) to (BS of 1) by forcing the model to Snap Shot.
5: Skyfire Checks for legal Target.
6: Hard to Hit checks for Skyfire.
7: Markerlight Checks for Token.
8: Skyfire Checks for Normal BS (BS 3) As Snap Shots force the Model to not fire at Normal BS.

So you are modifying Step 4?

You must ignore the parenthetical - if you don't you're parsing the rule ignoring grammar.

 Happyjew wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:
1: Player Declears shots at Flyer.
2: Weapon Range checks for Target in Range.
3:Heavy Rule checks for movement in prior Movement Phase.
4: Snap Shots rule Modifies BS from Normal (BS of 3) to (BS of 1) by forcing the model to Snap Shot.
5: Skyfire Checks for legal Target.
6: Hard to Hit checks for Skyfire.
7: Markerlight Checks for Token.
8: Skyfire Checks for Normal BS (BS 3) As Snap Shots force the Model to not fire at Normal BS.

So you are modifying Step 4?

That is where I see Snap Shots Modifying the BS. And as Snap shots forces the Model to not fire normally, the Normal BS is 3, the Modified BS is 1 and Skyfire is only concerned With what the Normal BS is, not what the Modified BS is.

Also note that Heavy is where it is due to the fact it was a condition that had to met in the movement phase and not in the Shooting Phase, Even if it was first, it would go

1: Player Declears Shooting at flyer.
2: Heavy Checks for Movement in prior phase.
3: Snap Shot Modifies To BS 1 instead of Normal (BS 3)
4: Weapon Range Checks Target Range for Legal target.

No matter how it goes Skyfire still checks for Normal BS and not the Modified BS caused by Snap Shots.

As I'm sure you want to tell us. How would you have it go as per your interpretation?

Edited: Also as I have said before this is about whether or not a Special rule can override a Basic/General/Advanced Rule.

So after looking I have found the Hierarchy of which Rules takes presidence over which. Basic Rules are Trumped by Advanced Rules as Per Page 7 BRB. "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules." Snap Shot is a Basic Rule. Heavy is an Advanced Rule. Advanced Rules and Basic Rules are Trumped by Special Rules, as per Page 32 BRB.

Page 32 BRB, "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule. A special rule might improve a models chances of causing damage by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost to its Strength, Conversely, a special rule may improve the model's survivability by granting it resistance to pain, or the ability to regrow damaged flesh. Special rules allow snipers to target the weak spots of their foes, scouts to range ahead of the army and anti-aircraft guns to blow flyers out of the sky."

So when applying rules to a Model they should be applied in the order of

1: Basic rules.
2: Advanced rules.
3: Special rules.
4: Codex special rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
You must ignore the parenthetical - if you don't you're parsing the rule ignoring grammar.

Less Smarmy please.

I think your list is a bit off, but can work with this.

1: Player Declears shots at Flyer.
2: Weapon Range checks for Target in Range.
3:Heavy Rule checks for movement in prior Movement Phase.
4: Snap Shots rule Modifies BS from Normal (BS of 3) to (BS of 1) by forcing the model to Snap Shot.

Here is where you have issues. Heavy set the model to snap shot. Per the FAQ.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No

5: Skyfire Checks for legal Target.
6: Hard to Hit checks for Skyfire.
7: Markerlight Checks for Token.
8: Skyfire Checks for Normal BS (BS 3) As Snap Shots force the Model to not fire at Normal BS.

You have now just modified a BS that you are forbidden to do so without specific permission as Skyfire is a special rule.

9: Markerlight Modifies Normal (BS 3) to (BS 4)
10: Shot is Resolved at BS 4.

Markerlights have specific permission to modify a snap shot, so you would resolve it at the BS2

 BLADERIKER wrote:

So when applying rules to a Model they should be applied in the order of

1: Basic rules.
2: Advanced rules.
3: Special rules.
4: Codex special rules.

You've invented this. Nothing in the Special Rules section disagrees with what's on page 7.

rigeld2 wrote:
You must ignore the parenthetical - if you don't you're parsing the rule ignoring grammar.

Less Smarmy please.

Are you or are you not ignoring the rules of grammar by not ignoring the parenthetical?

There should be a Stella-like award for the most frivolous arguments on the YMDC forums.

 Moridan wrote:
There should be a Stella-like award for the most frivolous arguments on the YMDC forums.

Certainly the most stubborn argument.
4 pages with not a single person agreeing with this interpretation.

Snap Shot: If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots. [Page 13]

Hard to Hit: Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42) [Page 81]

Skyfire: A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers,Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets. [Page 42]

Heavy Weapons: If a model carrying a Heavy weapon moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots (see page 13 for details). [Page 51]

I don't know why this has gone on 4 pages. This board has had it explained several times in the past how rules are applied. Such a large user base, I suppose people forget things...

Anyways, Heavy Weapons have a restriction. Restrictions always trump permission when the two are in conflict. "Specific" overrides "general", but remember that restrictions always trump permissions.

So... under the OPs interpretation... a skyray would ALWAYS fire ALL its weapons at "normal" BS no matter how it moved?

 cowmonaut wrote:

Snap Shot: If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots. [Page 13]

Hard to Hit: Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42) [Page 81]

Skyfire: A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers,Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. Unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets. [Page 42]

Heavy Weapons: If a model carrying a Heavy weapon moved in the preceding Movement phase, he can fire it in the Shooting phase but only as Snap Shots (see page 13 for details). [Page 51]

I don't know why this has gone on 4 pages. This board has had it explained several times in the past how rules are applied. Such a large user base, I suppose people forget things...

Anyways, Heavy Weapons have a restriction. Restrictions always trump permission when the two are in conflict. "Specific" overrides "general", but remember that restrictions always trump permissions.

I Read the thread and it was quite comprehensive. If What was said in the thread is in fact true, then why is there a on going thread regarding DS Landraiders and Assaults, as one of those Special Rules places a Restriction on Assaulting and the other gives you permission to Assault? Seems that either the findings of the Thread are not true in every situation, that those that are arguing for one side or the other are not aware of it, or that it has no bearing on conflicts that involves Special Rules.

As you have taken the time for me to fill out the necessary rules (For which I thank you) I shall try to elaborate on what I am seeing.

Skyfire (Special Rule) Is it Specific or General? Skyfire tells the model to use its normal ballistic skill when firing at those three unit types. 1: I interpret Skyfire as a Specific rule, because it simply tells the model to use the Normal Ballistic Skill. 2: Because it tells you which Unit Types it allows you to fire at Normal Ballistic Skill at. 3: Because it tells you which Unit Types you will fire Snap Shots at. 4: Because it tells you that you can ignore Snap Shots at the restricted Unit Types if you have Interceptor.

Heavy (Advanced Rule) restricts a Heavy Weapon that moved to only fire Snap Shots when firing in the following Shooting phase. 1: Heavy tells the model to use the Snap Snap rule if it moved. 2: I interpret Heavy as a Specific Rule as it targets only Weapons with the Heavy Rule.

Snap Shots (Basic Rule) When a model is Forced to fire a Snap Shot it is not shooting normally, and has its Ballistic Skill is Modified to Ballistic Skill 1. I interpret Snap Shots as a Specific rule because it tells you. 1: That you are not Shooting Normally. 2: That you are Forced to shoot at Ballistic Skill 1.

Hard to Hit (Advanced Rule) Hard to hit makes you fire Snap Shots when shooting at a Flyer/FMC, with the Exception that should a shot have the Skyfire rule the Hard to Hit rule has no effect. I interpret Hard to Hit as a Specific Rule as it gives the circumstances of which it will take effect and it will not take effect.

We also know that As per Page 32, Special Rules break/Trump Basic and Advanced rules in the case of a conflict, and that Codex rules take priority over BRB Special Rules.

Now that entire Thread on Specific vs. General, as I understood it, is about Basic rules and Advanced rules in conflict and which overrides which. Yes there are some very good points made in it. However, unless I am mistaken every Special rule (General or Specific) has Permission to Break the restrictions placed on a Model whether that restriction comes from a General Source or a Specific source, so long as that Source is not another Special Rule or Codex Special Rule.

I saw this and thought I would add this to it as I felt it applied.

Go to Ground (Basic Rule) Page 18 BRB. In the wording of the rule there is only one instance in which a Model that has gone to ground In the Prior Shooting Phase can act normally on its turn. It requires the Model/s to have failed there Moral Check and fallen back.

Moral Check (Basic Rule) Page 29 BRB. It tells you all the Circumstances that will require Moral Check.

If Marneus Calgar is the General of your UltraMarines Army/Allied Detachment then models with "Chapter Tactics" UltraMarines in the Army/ Allied Detachment can pass or fail any Moral Check. (Codex Special Rule, Page 105 SM, Codex)

And They Shall Know No fear (Special Rule) Page 33 BRB. Tells you that you will Automatically Rally and can act normally after you Rally.

So a 10 man tac Squad with "Chapter tactics" UltraMarines, with Calgar as their there General, Goes to ground and suffers 3 unsaved Wounds. They choose to Fail their Moral Check, Auto rally and can act normally at the start of their next movement Phase.

This is a Perfect example of Special Rule both Codex and BRB breaking the Restrictions placed upon the Models, by the Advanced and Basic Rules in play.

Special rules cannot modify the BS of a Snap Shot unless given specific permission, like Markerlights. Therefore Skyfire has no effect on a Snapshot caused by a Heavy weapon rule.

Seriously dude, you're wrong. Everyone has told you you're wrong, everyone has proven it to you beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt. Your desire to not accept that truth does not make you right. I regret ever reading his thread, and I'm placing you on ignore from this point on, you've successfully alienated me from you and probably everyone else as well to some degree based on your insistence that we are all wrong and you're somehow the martyred genius of 40k. Have fun playing out there.

BLADERIKER is clearly a troll, right? I mean, he has to be trolling everyone here. That's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with. Maybe it's time to stop feeding him?

Fragile wrote:
Special rules cannot modify the BS of a Snap Shot unless given specific permission, like Markerlights. Therefore Skyfire has no effect on a Snapshot caused by a Heavy weapon rule.

Where does it say that Skyfire Modifies the BS of the Snap Shot. Does it tell you to Modify the BS of the Shot?

Modifiers. Page 2 BRB. "Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model's characteristic positively by adding to it (+1 +2, ect.), Multiplying it (x2, x3, ect.) or even by setting its value (1,8, ect.). Attacks and Wounds are the only Characteristics that can be raised above 10. No characteristic can be modified below 0."

Skyfire tells you to use the normal Ballistic Skill of the Model. I take that to mean the Ballistic Skill in the stat Line. Skyfire does not state anything about Modifying the Ballistic Skill, only that you use the normal Ballistic Skill.

Snap Shots tells you that when forced to Fire a Snap Shot you are not firing normally. Meaning that Snap Shots is not the normal Ballistic Skill, but a Modified Ballistic Skill as described in the Modifiers rule on page 2 BRB.

I saw this and thought I would add this to it as I felt it applied.

Go to Ground (Basic Rule) Page 18 BRB. In the wording of the rule there is only one instance in which a Model that has gone to ground In the Prior Shooting Phase can act normally on its turn. It requires the Model/s to have failed there Moral Check and fallen back.

Moral Check (Basic Rule) Page 29 BRB. It tells you all the Circumstances that will require Moral Check.

If Marneus Calgar is the General of your UltraMarines Army/Allied Detachment then models with "Chapter Tactics" UltraMarines in the Army/ Allied Detachment can pass or fail any Moral Check. (Codex Special Rule, Page 105 SM, Codex)

And They Shall Know No fear (Special Rule) Page 33 BRB. Tells you that you will Automatically Rally and can act normally after you Rally.

So a 10 man tac Squad with "Chapter tactics" UltraMarines, with Calgar as their there General, Goes to ground and suffers 3 unsaved Wounds. They choose to Fail their Moral Check, Auto rally and can act normally at the start of their next movement Phase.

This is a Perfect example of Special Rules both Codex and BRB breaking the Restrictions placed upon the Models, by the Advanced and Basic Rules in play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

farrenj wrote:
BLADERIKER is clearly a troll, right? I mean, he has to be trolling everyone here. That's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with. Maybe it's time to stop feeding him?

Call me what you will, but I am looking at the rules and not seeing where you guys are are drawing your conclusion from.

Where does it say that Skyfire Modifies the BS of the Snap Shot. Does it tell you to Modify the BS of the Shot?

Your own sequence that You posted (which is wrong btw) shows that you modified the BS of 1 to a BS of 4.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Page 80 BRB "Hard to Hit" "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (Unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire Special rule, as described on page 42.)"

So if we reword the parenthetical phrase, using parallel language, it would say, "If the model/weapon has the Skyfire special rule, then it CAN be resolved using the model's normal BS." It does not say that it MUST be resolved in that manner, only that there are certain times when it will be, and certain times when it will not be. (That's what can means.)

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 BLADERIKER wrote:

Page 80 BRB "Hard to Hit" "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (Unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire Special rule, as described on page 42.)"

So if we reword the parenthetical phrase, using parallel language, it would say, "If the model/weapon has the Skyfire special rule, then it CAN be resolved using the model's normal BS." It does not say that it MUST be resolved in that manner, only that there are certain times when it will be, and certain times when it will not be. (That's what can means.)

See at least you went out of your way to explain that.

Thank you.

Now as it seems that the entirety of community forum is saying that my original thesis "A heavy weapon that moved can use its normal Ballistic Skill to fire at a Flyer/Skimmer/FMC if and only if it has the Skyfire rule." Is not a Sound Argument. Now I could simply take the communities word for it let the matter go by the way side. My issue is that I cannot see where my logic is flawed, whether out of blind stubbornness, or misinterpretation of the rules. And I do not simply take anyone's word as the final say.

So let us presume that the Community is in fact right about this subject, and that my interpretation of the rules is flawed. I'll state what I see and by all means explain if I seeing it correctly or not. and No I do not plan to write out the rules verbatim again...they have been stated enough already.

Skyfire as I see it is a (Specific Rule),(Special Rule), That allows a model to fire at a Flyer, FMC, or Skimmer at its normal BS. As a (Special Rule) I see that Skyfire can break or bend other rules. What I do not see is how being instructed to use the normal BS of a model is in anyway Modifying the BS of the Model. That Leads into my next point.

What is a Normal Skill? Based on what the BRB states about Modifying stats/skills, I see that at any give time a Model may have a Stat/skill that is not considered its normal Stat/skill. This might be where I make a mistake due to the wording of my next point.

Snap Shots (Specific Rule),(Basic Rule), tells you that if you are forced to fire a Snap Shot you are not firing normally. I see this as saying that a Snap Shot is never the normal BS of the Model force to Snap Shot.

I have no issue with what Heavy states, as I fully agree that if you move a Heavy Weapon then you are forced to fire Snap Shots with it. My Issue is with Snap Shots not Heavy, as Heavy tells you why you must Snap Shot to begin with.

Originally I did not see the wording of Hard to Hit, After I read through it several times, I came to believe that Hard to hit can only take effect against shots if and only if those shots do not have the Skyfire Rule. Which further reinforced what I was seeing in the Skyfire rule, as Skyfire never stated it affected Hard to Hit. Thus showing me that the Snap Shot restriction from Hard to Hit was never applied when in the presence of Skyfire.

I then looked at the FAQ regarding Modifying Snap Shots, and it informed me that no special rule could ever modify the BS 1 of a Snap shot. Part of my counter argument to those saying that the FAQ makes the statement "Unless the Special Rule is given Permission" is that they needed to go and read the FAQ as that is not what was said in that FAQ answer. Thus causing me to have to run around in circles trying to show the error of the counter argument of that point. This leads to my next point.

I then checked to see if the Skyfire rule was in fact Modifying the stat/skill, which is expressly forbidden by the FAQ. First I checked the rules on Modifying stats/skills, I did not see where or how Skyfire was forcing a Stat/Skill change, Then I looked at Snap Shots to see what it said, and I took it to mean that When Firing a Snap Shot the model is not firing normally. So then I applied what I thought to be true.

Snap Shots Modifies a BS from its Normal BS to that of BS 1 (Seems right)
Skyfire tells the model to use its normal BS. (Seems Right)
So Snap Shots is saying that BS 1 is not the Normal BS, and Skyfire is telling the Model to use its Normal BS. (This is where the Conflict it, as I see it.).

I then applied what I knew about Special Rules breaking Basic/Advanced Rules and Thus came to my conclusion, that my thesis is sound.

Hopefully, and without degrading to a state of petty name calling, someone can show me where my logic is flawed, or where I am misinterpreting the rules as written. Even that may not resolve what I believe I am seeing, but I have tried to show my logic.

This may, or may not require a GW FAQ, though I doubt it will.

Skyfire is a modifier as well - setting the value from 1 to your "normal" BS

Part of my counter argument to those saying that the FAQ makes the statement "Unless the Special Rule is given Permission" is that they needed to go and read the FAQ as that is not what was said in that FAQ answer

What part of "no special rule can modify the BS of a snap shot" are you unclear on. If Heavy weapons set your BS to 1, no special rule (which Skyfire is, as you spent so much time telling us) can change that BS.

"Unless the Special Rule is given Permission"

This is the standard of a permissive rule set. If you do not understand this, then that is why you do not understand why you are wrong.

Snap Shots Modifies a BS from its Normal BS to that of BS 1 (Seems right)
Skyfire tells the model to use its normal BS. (Seems Right)
So Snap Shots is saying that BS 1 is not the Normal BS, and Skyfire is telling the Model to use its Normal BS. (This is where the Conflict it, as I see it.).

Skyfire states to use the normal BS when firing at Flyers, instead of Snap Shot as required by Hard to Hit. It does not set your BS to anything, even if it did, the FAQ would kick in and deny you.
Heavy weapons would then kick in and Set the BS to 1, since set modifiers are last.