Ok, so I play Tau, I admit that i find it heavily frustrating to hear so much negativity toward them but we'll not go into that now.
There has been a thread recently about how unfair Tau is and therefore not getting games so i wanted to ask for guidelines into what is considered 'fair' and what is considered 'too much'.
(I would like to state that i don't think this in its own right is right or fair but that is life).
The reason being I actually want to play the game and don't want to be a Tau guy that never gets games.

So how about we get some guidelines about what isn't fair (this is a genuine attempt at leveling playing field out a bit)

Simple dont take loads of riptides

I've been wondering if you could do a HUGE kroot army with a few broadsides for anti tank lol

So is 2 at 1850 fair or unfair?

Never played against (and in a way with) Tau so I may be wrong but from looking at posts, it looks like riptides are the ones people hate the most.

I would say as a general guide that 1 riptide per each 750pts above 750ptd. So none at 750pts and under, 1 up to 1500, 2 up to 2250 etc. It's really up to you though.

Boniface wrote:

So how about we get some guidelines about what isn't fair (this is a genuine attempt at leveling playing field out a bit)

Here are the restrictions I've found worthwhile:
- No C&C Node or MSSS
- No Farsight and Shadowsun in the same army
- No Ethereal
- 0-1 Riptide
- 0-2 Pathfinder Teams
- No Missile Drones for Broadsides
- 0-1 Sky Ray

Just a small warning: even with these restrictions, your Tau army will be still pretty tough to beat. Warn your opponents to leave their "fun" and "fluffy" armies at home to avoid awkward situations.

From what I've seen on the net, 2 riptides is the most you're allowed to field. And there'd better not be ANYTHING else in your army classed as 'good'.

I'd fight any list put in front of me. If I fought 4 or 6 or 8 riptides I'd still do it.
If I lose, then so what? everyone expects everything to lose to 3+ riptides.

If I win - Woo, I beat 'riptide spam'

It doesn't matter what the list is, you still have to roll dice to kill me.

The best way to resolve Tau-hate issues is to simply talk to your perspective opponent/s before a game and discuss what kind of gaming experience you're after.

For example, tell them if you've brought a hard-as-nails, take-no-prisoners type of tournament army that's combining say Tau+Eldar or Tau+Farsight Enclave. On an open gaming day/night, a lot of people for example don't want to be bothered playing such a cut-throat game outside of tournaments.
If you're say testing such a list, then tell people and ask them if they don't mind helping you out/taking on a massive challenge.

Otherwise, mellow it out a bit. Don't take all the fully optimised options all the fething time!
Try out some of the so-called 'sub-optimal' choices. Don't always take Eldar/Tau allies - mabe try something a little bit quirky or storytime'ish, such as say including a Greater Daemon and some Lesser daemons to support him - ie: the Tau have stumbled across an ancient site that's imprisoning a powerful dameonic entity which then possesses the force's Ethereal, but the Tau in their naivete have mistaken it for their Ethereal gaining awesome new powers for the Greater Good and are now under the Daemon's sway!

People hate playing vs. Tau in general because they can make the game very, very boring due to being the shooting army in an edition which is slanted towards shooting, on top of the Tau's ability to gain truckloads of re-rolls and practically ignore cover wherever they want with spamed Markerlights.

Adding enough LOS blocking terrain to the table will help a lot as well.

Just take stuff you want to take. Like every army tau only becomes broken when you start spamming the same units. Don't take 3 riptides. Spread things out and try a little of everything.

An important thing to do is get a feel of what everyone else is bringing. If you have a bunch of casual players bring a casual list. If you have a bunch of hardcore players bring a hard to beat list. People say they have trouble picking up games but when ever there is a tournament coming up everyone wants to practice against the tau player.

This isn't necessarily accurate, but I would say that if it's a list that you would bring to a tournament or a list that has the sole purpose of winning, it might be "too much".

There's nothing wrong with bringing Markerlights or Riptides or Buff Commanders. Just have fun with the list. Break the mold a little bit - take Piranhas or Sniper Teams or a Sunshark Bomber or crazily upgraded Crisis Suits. None of those things are outright bad anyway.

Maybe play a game or two that doesn't use one of the commonly seen units at all. Make a list that has 0 Riptides. Make a list that runs 0 Broadsides.

If you have a particularly one-sided game, offer to swap armies for a round. Maybe your opponent can learn from the way YOU play against the Tau. Maybe you can find parts of your army that are frustrating to play against.

Boniface wrote:
Ok, so I play Tau, I admit that i find it heavily frustrating to hear so much negativity toward them but we'll not go into that now.
There has been a thread recently about how unfair Tau is and therefore not getting games so i wanted to ask for guidelines into what is considered 'fair' and what is considered 'too much'.
(I would like to state that i don't think this in its own right is right or fair but that is life).
The reason being I actually want to play the game and don't want to be a Tau guy that never gets games.

So how about we get some guidelines about what isn't fair (this is a genuine attempt at leveling playing field out a bit)

To be honest it seems like a double standard. Do chaos players local to you limit the number of helldrakes they take? do IG guys not take full squadrons of Russ tanks? Every book has a unit or units that everyone hates, if you gimp your list I guarantee they won't limit their power units and they will attempt to table you.

If you are worried about "fairness" try to play the more competitive players or tournament players. They will have more fine tuned lists and will most likely enjoy a challenging game.

This.

Tau aren't unbeatable, and i'd play them even cheesed out, just like i'd play GK in 5th, Skimmerspam Eldar in 4th etc.

They ARE, however, a tad trolly. Wasn't bad with the previous codex, as they needed a little trollyness to even count as 'poor' with the edition changes, but now that they are top tier people don't accept that trollyness so easily

My Orks, for example, are pretty reliant on cover, as their vehicles are frail, their armour is nonexistant and nothing is a skimmer.

They get mulched by tau at range, and then cut to ribbons by enhances overwatch as they try to close.

Annoying, but the answer to that one is 'bring moar boyz'


My DE and Daemons do better, though losing my cover boost for my mono-nurgle daemons is vexing, and i have to pay out for flickerfields to counter the fact that i will not be getting a jink save all game

Riptides are tough, and six of them is Gouda to be sure, but i have no problem fighting 2-3 in a list.

Talk to your regular opponents- see what they want to try out and work from there. Failing that, tell them to cheese up too, and play Hardcore

Yes, its always fair to offer them to play your army for a change. I remember one time when I was just getting back into it, that one of the other players let me play his Nids and he played my dark angels. It was a fun game and I learned a lot about how to play against nids by playing them.

I agree with what everyone else has said. Avoid Riptide spam, I only have one riptide, and only intend to have one.

Look at your Meta! Do you play against a lot of people using Space Marine? Space marines have alot of trouble against two now that we have plenty of AP 3 weapons. So instead of loading up on Ions to ignore their armor, take the railgun with sub-munition. They ask you about it just say you wanted to be ready for heavy armor.

OK Look. Its not that Tau are "unfair" and its not that Tau are "overpowered". Its that long range tau gunlines, win OR lose, are incredibly dull to play against and effectively suck the fun out of the game for one or both players.

If you want to play Tau and have people not complain about them, build a list that focuses on firefighting at 10-24 inches away form the opponnent. Bring considerations about assault, rapid fire, and movement back into the game and add an element of tactical depth to the experience instead of just Target Priority Yatzee.

That said, if you like Tau for the long range fire power, and have the most fun huddling behind an Aegis Defense line with a list designed to shoot the opponent off the table from accross the board without moving around. Don't be suprised that nobody wants to play with you. Very few people have fun playing against a Gunline, even if its an unoptomized gunline, and even if the Gunline ultimately looses the game.

Its not a matter of power or cheese (although those considerations do come into play) but rather a complaint about the army style that Tau Netlists follow almost to a T.

Wow, more people whining about Tau.

Mono Tau is not that powerful, if you or or opponents think it is, play better opponents or make it ultra casual.

The simply truth, Riptides aren't that great. Supported Riptides are. So, if you have a Buffmander, Many Markerlights, or allied Psyker they become much more powerful. Alone, Riptides aren't that great and IA riptides have a relatively low damage output for their cost.


Just to illustrate my points, here is the Feast of Blades Breakdown. These are some of the best 40k players around. http://www.torrentoffire.com/1745/feast-of-blades-invitational-by-the-numbers
Mono Tau had a substantial losing record. Tau/Tau did better, Tau/SM, did even better, Tau/Eldar did better yet, Eldar/Tau even Better, and Pure Eldar dominating the field. Three of the bottom six players were Mono Tau.


Moral of the story, just play MonoTau, there are plenty of counters and its not as OP as you think. Things get crazy when you bring Allies into the picture, this is where Tau is getting a bad rap.


As always, make sure you and your opponent know what kind of game you are playing. The Beer and Pretzels league with a fluffy army and upgrades just for the sake of having them don't mix well with competitive players and builds. But, if you think that Tau are too powerful to even be on the table with the other codexes and need to be gimped to the asnine levels some on here have suggested either you don't understand the game, or are playing the wrong style of game with your opponents.

And as tough and as bad as Tau are, Eldar are far far worse and more powerful yet get less hate because people erroneously hate Riptides more than Eldar Jetbikes.

 Zagman wrote:
Things get crazy when you bring Allies into the picture, this is where Tau is getting a bad rap.

Well, yeah.

I don't really play tournaments a lot, so if someone asked me for a game against a brutal Riptide net list during casual play on a Saturday I would accept, because their 3 Riptides and Necrons/Eldar are probably unpainted and I find that funny. Accept any challenge, no matter the odds, etc. etc.

I try to keep to theme and fluff myself, but I have no problems playing any net list out there even though I probably don't stand a chance. I take the side of the rules- If you can do it, you should be able to bring it.

It comes down to the player, and your player group. If you are concerned about losing friends because of 2+ Riptides, then you shouldn't have to change your list.. You should reevaluate your friendships instead. Just my 2cents.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Boniface wrote:

So how about we get some guidelines about what isn't fair (this is a genuine attempt at leveling playing field out a bit)

Here are the restrictions I've found worthwhile:
- No C&C Node or MSSS
- No Farsight and Shadowsun in the same army
- No Ethereal
- 0-1 Riptide
- 0-2 Pathfinder Teams
- No Missile Drones for Broadsides
- 0-1 Sky Ray

Just a small warning: even with these restrictions, your Tau army will be still pretty tough to beat. Warn your opponents to leave their "fun" and "fluffy" armies at home to avoid awkward situations.

Why not just say, only bring kroot.

It's honestly never been an issue where I play, but here is a suggestion. Play doubles matches. They are a hoot, and if you match up each side with one long range and one melee army it adds to the fun and balance. The other suggestion, assuming there is a huge inbalance in the player skill levels, use the short table deployment. Tau lose a ton of advantage if they are forced into that deployment.

These threads still kill me. In 5th I never had a shortage of players that would field a ton of missile launchers and lascannons to one shot my expensive suits and broadsides and every game was an uphill battle. When I mentioned how hard it was I got the response "That's just how it goes with an out of date codex"

So my answer to what's 'fair' use is anything you find in the codex and within the FOC limitations. I never saw people change their list to cater to my underpowered codex before so I don't think it warrants me returning the favor.

If you ask someone for a game and they're too scared to play you so they say no, that counts as a win

The only way to play Tau fair is to actually know the rules and to play on a table with actual LOS blocking terrain.

AKA play the game

I feel bad for Tau players right now. I know not everyone is TFG that plays the FotM armies, and i cant really blame them for taking good units. Its really an effect of 6th's bluffs to shooting and nerfs to assault that has moved the gameplay into Tau's preferred gunline style.

With that said, in my flgs, we have 3 tau players. 1 has actually put his tau army in the shelf because he himself feels they are too OP (he is very competitive and will bring the latest cheese list -screamstar is his current list), after using early taudar triptide lists. He stopped because he wasnt enjoying the game as much, just shooting stuff all day. He likes screamstar because he feels its inherently more vulnerable. (Which i have to agree).

The other tau players have been playing before the new codex, and they have refused to use the latest net lists. They still bring decent gunline tau lists, but other than broadsides, and mixes up the other slots. And their attitudes about gaming is very casual and sportsmanly. One guy is just so much fun to play that he's always booked for games days ahead of our gaming nights.

Tldr;
I really cant say much about what to put in lists other than base it on your local gaming group (2 riptides max in 2k games i guess in non competitive). Your attitude with others will definitely be a plus, i know if any of these guys brought a tourney list, i still wouldnt hesitate to play them just because they arent TFG.

1. Have a good and friendly attitude
2. Make sure there's actually a decent amount of line of sight blocking terrain on the table
3. Read the netlists, avoid making lists that resemble them
4. Don't take Eldar as allies
5. If, for some reason, you actually own Vespid, take a unit of them for the lulz

Generally speaking, don't take more than 2 riptides and make sure to follow your rules to the letter. I see enough tau players forgetting to use abilities at the right time and over-moving assault jump moves, even as a tau player it pisses me off. Course then I call them out on it saying they can't do that, and they throw a fit.

brother marcus wrote:


I've been wondering if you could do a HUGE kroot army with a few broadsides for anti tank lol

I do that. I take 80 sniper kroot, 10 FW in a fish with etheral, 2 riptides and a unit of 3 rail broadsides, 3 pathfinder teams and shadowsun. Last time I did it was at a nova open tournament placement tournament and beat the pants off two eldar/tau ally bastards and a nid player.

Having the ethereal's boons affect kroot is hilarious.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
When I mentioned how hard it was I got the response "That's just how it goes with an out of date codex"

So my answer to what's 'fair' use is anything you find in the codex and within the FOC limitations. I never saw people change their list to cater to my underpowered codex before so I don't think it warrants me returning the favor.

Yes!

nothing screams a fun game than marching on a broadside and riptide spam hiding behind an aegis defense line.

Problem with tau is its very easy for them to become overpowered compared to most armies. Someone refered to chaos and heldrakes, but thats one unit that helps balance the codex rather than making it ridiculously overpowered. As others have said, speak to your opponent cos Ive 2 tau players at our club i wont even entertain. The clubs a nice friendly enviroment with mainly fluff based armies but the two tau players bring tournament lists /facepalm

The major problem with tau are the models look gash to me. But i love the Firewarriors and riptides, so i dont collect cos Im not having an army that looks crap to get a game lol

 Lutharr101 wrote:
nothing screams a fun game than marching on a broadside and riptide spam hiding behind an aegis defense line.

Problem with tau is its very easy for them to become overpowered compared to most armies. Someone refered to chaos and heldrakes, but thats one unit that helps balance the codex rather than making it ridiculously overpowered. As others have said, speak to your opponent cos Ive 2 tau players at our club i wont even entertain. The clubs a nice friendly enviroment with mainly fluff based armies but the two tau players bring tournament lists /facepalm

The major problem with tau are the models look gash to me. But i love the Firewarriors and riptides, so i dont collect cos Im not having an army that looks crap to get a game lol

The same can be said about Screamerstar, JetSeerCouncil,, Brav Biker Spam, FMC Spam, Wave Serpent Spam. All of which are IMO more powerful and nastier than Riptide Spam. In fact, all of those builds generally beat Riptide Spam.

As to the rest of your comment, its about different playstyles and games. Competitive players vs Beer and Pretzel Players. Both players have to be looking for the same kind of game going in.

I know I generally don't play against the Beer and Pretzel guys because we aren't playing the same game.


I for one play more games in tournaments than I do outside of them. Each player is different, find the right game and opponenents and Tau aren't an issue, nor is any other army.

I think one riptide is fine, any more people start getting upset.

I think a good way to start is look at some of the cheese lists out there and use that as a bad example for a fair army.

I'll worry about getting Tau players to limit Riptides right after getting limits on helldrakes or Wave Serpents. There's more at work here than just Riptides. It's the fact that assault has been repeatedly nerfed and rapid fire was made much better in 6th. Usually against Tau, the fire warriors kill more BA than the Riptides do through sheer dice.

Oh, and I've never had a mono Tau list shoot me off the table as fast as mono Eldar can do it. So which is the abusive army?

My Tau buddy played for 3 years before getting the 6th codex. Didn't complain, just had fun, though he lost more often than not. Now he wins more often, it's just more challenging for me.

Maybe he'll bring 6 riptides next game. Sounds like fun, would like to try fighting that list!

Martel732 wrote:
I'll worry about getting Tau players to limit Riptides right after getting limits on helldrakes or Wave Serpents. There's more at work here than just Riptides. It's the fact that assault has been repeatedly nerfed and rapid fire was made much better in 6th. Usually against Tau, the fire warriors kill more BA than the Riptides do through sheer dice.

Oh, and I've never had a mono Tau list shoot me off the table as fast as mono Eldar can do it. So which is the abusive army?

I agree.

It comes down to each player and their local meta to decide on how much of "X" they should include in their army.

Personally I would rather bring a list that most players would enjoy playing against - even if this results in a loss once in a while.

I follow the following "rules" when building my farsight 1750-1850 lists:

- max 1 riptide
- no farsight bomb (too gimmicky, deploying with a regular team is more efficient and = scoring)
- include a sniper drone team
- use as many crisis suits as possible

After working around those self imposed restrictions, I generally have enough points for a broadside team, 2nd commander, and maybe a firewarrior team. I haven't had any issues winning or finding opponents. When they first hear you play tau, there is a bit of an eyeroll, but then you pull out all the suits and most people become much more enthusiastic.

I mean look at it. Tau have pathfinders, but Eldar models can twin link their OWN weapons. So there is no lynchpin to hit with flamers or whatever. Plus the Eldar have some solid counter assault built in with Wraithknights and Dire Avengers. And yes, after Dire Avengers catapult you and over watch you, their HTH capabilites are nontrivial.

The Eldar at 50% strength are very close to 50% firepower of Eldar at 100% strength. Tau at 50% strength have considerably less than 50% firepower of 100% strength Tau.

My gaming group has been struggling with this since the release of tau. We are a small group of 5 friends all playing different armies. There is a severe problem with balance within our group we have Tau of course, dark eldar, nids, space marines, and orks. There are some sever balance problems just because of the armies we play with Tau being the strongest and orks being the weakest. still we try to keep every game interesting and here is how....
We look at each others list. Is there an obvious power issue between both armies? Is there a riptied, for example, against an ork list who has 0% chance of destroying it?
Here are two very low, I think 450 point. lists that had an incredible battle despite the fact that tau are way stronger than orks, codex wise. We played the relic, both agreeing that it would be the most fair game to play with the lists we had.

Orks
HQ ork boss big choppa attack squig e'vey armour
troops
orks x10 big shoota
in a trukk with da boss
grots x19 runterd
fast
buggie
burna bomba with two missiles

Tau
HQ
Cadre fireblad
Troops
12 firewarriors markerlights
12 kroot kroot hound (outflanking
fast
bomber

I am not 100% on his list but whatever all of the units match up and the winner of the game is the guy who has the best rolls or tactically defeats his foe. I realize that most people play pickup games however even bringing a 1500 point list players can tailor their lists for a fair fight with any army if the make 500 point lists from it in order to fight one another.

 gossipmeng wrote:
It comes down to each player and their local meta to decide on how much of "X" they should include in their army.

Personally I would rather bring a list that most players would enjoy playing against - even if this results in a loss once in a while.

I follow the following "rules" when building my farsight 1750-1850 lists:

- max 1 riptide
- no farsight bomb (too gimmicky, deploying with a regular team is more efficient and = scoring)
- include a sniper drone team
- use as many crisis suits as possible

After working around those self imposed restrictions, I generally have enough points for a broadside team, 2nd commander, and maybe a firewarrior team. I haven't had any issues winning or finding opponents. When they first hear you play tau, there is a bit of an eyeroll, but then you pull out all the suits and most people become much more enthusiastic.

This is exactly what I am planing with my farsight enclave hahaha one riptide a few squads of fire warriors/ pathfinders And a few battle suits and a hammerhead/ broadsides. Should be fair i think haha

If I were an ork player against a tau gunline, I'd go for battlewagons holding burnaboys (for the firewarriors) or nobs (for the riptides). Have trucks filled with boys following the battlewagons so that they are out of LoS.

Most tau gunlines lack an effective way to deal with av14:

- elite slots will be filled with riptides (no fusion blaster suits)
- most broadsides use missiles rather than railguns
- riptides have to ensure they don't scatter or get hot.

You can actually use the battlewagons to move between tau units to prevent supporting fire LoS

I wouldn't play a watered down version of my army to play others. If I use a hyper competitive list, I always tell my opponent so.

Also, Tau were at the bottom of the bucket for 7 years, and nearly two editions. Give them a break for being powerful for a little while.

Lucarikx

 Savageconvoy wrote:
These threads still kill me. In 5th I never had a shortage of players that would field a ton of missile launchers and lascannons to one shot my expensive suits and broadsides and every game was an uphill battle. When I mentioned how hard it was I got the response "That's just how it goes with an out of date codex"

So my answer to what's 'fair' use is anything you find in the codex and within the FOC limitations. I never saw people change their list to cater to my underpowered codex before so I don't think it warrants me returning the favor.

pretty much this.

But seriously, you're dealing with 40k players. 40k players love to moan, whine, and complain. to the extent that a group of 40k players is often jokingly referred to as "a whine of 40k players". And the sad fact of the matter is, to some, you are to blame. Just because you play tau. No, there is no playing "fair" according to them. Whatever you do, you and your army are utterly beyond redemption and are entirely responsible for ruining the game, tearing down the rainforests, polluting the air, and releasing Justin Bieber onto the airwaves. Whatever you do will simply be "not good enough"; there will be no playing "fair", regardless of what you bring, what handicaps you take, what hoops you jump through, or whatever else.

And then there are the others who will say "yeah, cool. bring it on. i like facing off against hard lists."

The best answer to the question though is this: " effective communication". the great failing of 40k is it tries to be all things to all people, it compromises itself, and ultimately, it fails to deliver. Whats fair? Well, if its in the codex, its legal in-game. Fluff is open-ended. as to who wants what - well, talk to them. if they have no hang-ups, or terms and conditions to what they're willing to go against then, you've got a blank slate. go for it. if its the folks that have terms and conditions - well then honestly have that conversation with yourself; are you willing to compromise? or are those terms and conditions they insist on for a game too much for you? depending on the answer, then either (a) play them, or (b) dont play them.

talk to them, and then take the next step. its that simple.

I find it best to figure out the type of army I want to play and model it off of that. If you do it that way it is pretty obvious what is OP, although it doesn't always work (15 piranhas is kind of mean).

In general ts the riptides that cause all the grief. with the exception of the what 2 guns that cause instant death you wont shoot them dead without wasting a ton of shots. And their range + speed makes them hard to catch in the melee untill turn 3-4 or even later.

The whole easily removed cover is another but that at least can be dealt with easier. Its easier to play "you cant see me at all" or "im too tough anyway" than it is to outgun a riptide lol.


In my experience though its more people refusing to change their lists than anything else. Got a guy that runs virtually the same space marine list against my tau as my orks...despite being drastically different tactics lol. Flamers dont hurt crisis suits or riptides for squat, and only heavy flamers hurt firewarriors (that arent clumped up like idiots anyway). Hes had that flamer unit he drops in every turn be so powerful for him he refuses to get rid of it, even though it never even gets close to getting its points back against my tau lol.

Well since I am the one who brought up the topic on how Tau players I have noticed are having issues getting games, I will throw in my 2 cents lol. Overall, do I think the Tau are op? No I don't but I do believe they are an unbalanced book that got a huge boost with this new edition. Ever since GW made 40k more of shooting game and nerfed the assault phase, many people have stopped playing 40k all together, as it became a dice game to see who can get the most shots off which makes the game boring. Also, another issue I see is that Tau became THE power gamers army, as it is easy for anyone to make a super competitive list with the army and many have rotten attitudes. Overall, once 40k became a shooting game, Tau became top tier right off the bat due to the ability to spam nasty lists without much effort and its no fun to pay against at all.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
In general ts the riptides that cause all the grief. with the exception of the what 2 guns that cause instant death you wont shoot them dead without wasting a ton of shots. And their range + speed makes them hard to catch in the melee untill turn 3-4 or even later.

The whole easily removed cover is another but that at least can be dealt with easier. Its easier to play "you cant see me at all" or "im too tough anyway" than it is to outgun a riptide lol.


In my experience though its more people refusing to change their lists than anything else. Got a guy that runs virtually the same space marine list against my tau as my orks...despite being drastically different tactics lol. Flamers dont hurt crisis suits or riptides for squat, and only heavy flamers hurt firewarriors (that arent clumped up like idiots anyway). Hes had that flamer unit he drops in every turn be so powerful for him he refuses to get rid of it, even though it never even gets close to getting its points back against my tau lol.

That's because changing his list to suit his opponent would count as one of the Internet's Great Sins, "list tailoring".

The best answer to the question though is this: " effective communication". the great failing of 40k is it tries to be all things to all people, it compromises itself, and ultimately, it fails to deliver. Whats fair? Well, if its in the codex, its legal in-game. Fluff is open-ended. as to who wants what - well, talk to them. if they have no hang-ups, or terms and conditions to what they're willing to go against then, you've got a blank slate. go for it. if its the folks that have terms and conditions - well then honestly have that conversation with yourself; are you willing to compromise? or are those terms and conditions they insist on for a game too much for you?

Oh I seen those "talks" in 5th ed. A dude buys IG or GK army , plays people with normal lists and then runs in to one of those rare "talk" guys . And suddenly you notice that the "talk" is there because the "talk" guy bought his army 2 editions ago , for cheaper then you , and he still gets the nerv to force you to buy in fill your list with bad stuff , just because he doesn't want to update or buy a new army that works. Talking and asking what other people would like to see in your army is stupid, because they will always want to see stuff which is easy for them to beat , with minimal additional cash cost . Preferably 0 , if someone can play without paying for a table.

Tau gunline, is boring to face. And incredibly boring to play. There's never enough LOS blocking terrain, and players that play it should be banished.

yeah we should all play with ton of LoS terrain , so that chaos demon players could get in to melee range unopposed and win every game .Same with meq players who using drop pods could ignore the LoS blockers and with fewer turns of shoting hiting them could roll over any non meq army.

No, we should play on planet bowling ball, where Tau and Eldar can just blast everything off the table and win every game.

Or, you know, we could play with a decent mixture of terrain that add tactical depth to the game, like reasonable people.

Makumba wrote:
yeah we should all play with ton of LoS terrain , so that chaos demon players could get in to melee range unopposed and win every game .Same with meq players who using drop pods could ignore the LoS blockers and with fewer turns of shoting hiting them could roll over any non meq army.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Gunline Tau IS boring for everyone involved. It needs no tactics at all to be effective. I should know, i sold all my Tau a few weeks after the new codex. Due to it being so boring to play.

Makumba wrote:

Oh I seen those "talks" in 5th ed. A dude buys IG or GK army , plays people with normal lists and then runs in to one of those rare "talk" guys . And suddenly you notice that the "talk" is there because the "talk" guy bought his army 2 editions ago , for cheaper then you , and he still gets the nerv to force you to buy in fill your list with bad stuff , just because he doesn't want to update or buy a new army that works. Talking and asking what other people would like to see in your army is stupid, because they will always want to see stuff which is easy for them to beat , with minimal additional cash cost . Preferably 0 , if someone can play without paying for a table.

I’ll agree with you Makumba – that attitude you mention, of opponents deciding what they want to see in your army (ie easy to beat) is reprehensible. Unfortunately, its par for the course for some of the people that play 40k. However, it wasn’t really what I was trying to get at.
I guess I’m just too used to playing warmachine and infinity these days where a more assertive, and aggressive in-game playstyle is the norm ie a lot less of the negative “that’s unfair”, and a lot more “bring it on”. 40k though, unfortunately is a host to a huge amount of negativity, to the extent that sometimes I feel someone having a desire to win is a pariah, and that sportsmanship means apologising for beating your opponent for beating them, and where a 2-player game implies having no one at the other controller. Too many people simply want immunity: opponent.
Regarding what I was saying about communication – I will stand by what I said. Communication is the key. But it’s not about letting your opponent decide your army for you. That’s just stupid. No, what I mean by communication is being on the same page as your opponent. It’s about realising that 40k is a lot of things to a lot of different people. And some are simply incompatible. It’s about realising what it is you want to get out of your games of 40k, and finding like-minded folks to play against. If the person at the other end of the table doesn’t want what you want out of 40k (cut throat killer lists, “fluff” lists (and I despise that term) or whatever), then ask yourself if it’s a game you want to play. Is it an opponent you want to play? There is nothing wrong with being in any particular camp, the issue is insisting on everyone else needing to be in the same camp, and everyone else being “wrong”. Finding like-minded opponents is the key.

Don't take pathfinders, one of the best tau units from my experience.

Having played Tau in 5th against a lot of Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Necrons, I have to admit a little enjoyment at the angst the Tau now cause.

What I learned in those dark times is the best lists from the best codexes can be overcome through sound tactics and preparation.

Modern Tau are uniquely suited to breaking the local and world wide Meta because, while having a glaring disadvantage, they have the ability to neutralize the advantages of pretty much any other competitive army. Some relish the challenge this presents, others find the negation of their "I Win" buttons to be overwhelming.

This is a part of the cycle of the game and the current super competitive Tau lists will pull the Meta towards dealing with them. Once that happens, Tau will need to adapt (and change up their play style) or see themselves slip from the top tier as armies load up on Poison, Fleshbane, Rending and low AP to eliminate Riptides (which hurts bad in the points department) and cover denying AP 4/5 blasts and templates to root our troops and pathfinders out from their hiding places (because bunching up for Supporting Fire fun is just waiting for an artillery barrage to ruin your day).

 AtoMaki wrote:

Boniface wrote:

So how about we get some guidelines about what isn't fair (this is a genuine attempt at leveling playing field out a bit)

Here are the restrictions I've found worthwhile:
- No C&C Node or MSSS
- No Farsight and Shadowsun in the same army
- No Ethereal
- 0-1 Riptide
- 0-2 Pathfinder Teams
- No Missile Drones for Broadsides
- 0-1 Sky Ray

Just a small warning: even with these restrictions, your Tau army will be still pretty tough to beat. Warn your opponents to leave their "fun" and "fluffy" armies at home to avoid awkward situations.

Only Broadsides can take missile drones, so you may as well just say no missile drones period.

 DanFST wrote:

Makumba wrote:
yeah we should all play with ton of LoS terrain , so that chaos demon players could get in to melee range unopposed and win every game .Same with meq players who using drop pods could ignore the LoS blockers and with fewer turns of shoting hiting them could roll over any non meq army.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Gunline Tau IS boring for everyone involved. It needs no tactics at all to be effective. I should know, i sold all my Tau a few weeks after the new codex. Due to it being so boring to play.

My army is IG , everything I tau do better. They have better gunlines , better mobility , can battle brother eldar , where I have to battle brother marines . Riptide >2 vendetta . If a table is made to "counter" tau or eldar , because the game is "boring" , aka marines and demons can lose, then my IG get spanked even harder . I would rather lose to tau and eldar who are superior and have a good chance other armies , then still lose to tau and eldar and lose to demons and marines too , just so that marine players find the game more "exciting" aka a free win against me .

 Savageconvoy wrote:
These threads still kill me. In 5th I never had a shortage of players that would field a ton of missile launchers and lascannons to one shot my expensive suits and broadsides and every game was an uphill battle. When I mentioned how hard it was I got the response "That's just how it goes with an out of date codex"

So my answer to what's 'fair' use is anything you find in the codex and within the FOC limitations. I never saw people change their list to cater to my underpowered codex before so I don't think it warrants me returning the favor.

Its swings and roundabouts really isn't it. It won't be long until the next flavour of the month comes along and is suddenly the army to beat.


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Martel732 wrote:
I'll worry about getting Tau players to limit Riptides right after getting limits on helldrakes or Wave Serpents. There's more at work here than just Riptides. It's the fact that assault has been repeatedly nerfed and rapid fire was made much better in 6th. Usually against Tau, the fire warriors kill more BA than the Riptides do through sheer dice.

Oh, and I've never had a mono Tau list shoot me off the table as fast as mono Eldar can do it. So which is the abusive army?

I think this about sums it up. Shooting is how the game works now. I have Blood Angels, Grey Knights (started in 6th after they were toned down) and Tau and I've just started Elder.

Funnily enough I started Eldar to try and tone it down in the games I've played but I'm now worried about Martel's comment as he seems to be saying that Eldar are in fact worse. This is despite the fact that there are three Eldar players down at my store and I didn't judge them to be worse but that could be because of their particular lists/playstyles.

I find it sad that people won't play games against certain armies... In my area people are pretty tournement geared so the more competitive the better. I would play what you want to play.
I do not understand the hate either, people still played against Gray Knights at the end of 5th in my local area - I still played my Eldar and Orks in hard fought battles. When 6th came out, Crons ruled the air and fields and no one bitched or stopped playing them.
Now people still play my Tau and Eldar, however I have taken a lot of "crap" of how easy it is to win with Eldar and Tau...
Though funny enough I was at two day tourney this weekend and a Cron player won, I played all Eldar and got 6th, there were 3 other Eldar or Eldar/Tau combos and none of them placed 1-3.
So I am not sure why all the hate as I think 6th as the new codexes have come out, have made the armies more balanced and not as broken as 5th was where every time a new codex came out, it was THE BEST codex. The only potential exceptions to this are Chaos Space Marines and Sisters, who I still think are a little weaker than many of the other dexes. But this is just my opinion.

If there is one thing to take away from my ranting is, play what makes you happy...
I don't always play what people call the meta, because I may like a certain unit or model and just want to play it.. Cheers

"Overall, do I think the Tau are op? No I don't but I do believe they are an unbalanced book that got a huge boost with this new edition""

So, what qualifies as OP? Or it's cousin, undercosted?

 gossipmeng wrote:
If I were an ork player against a tau gunline, I'd go for battlewagons holding burnaboys (for the firewarriors) or nobs (for the riptides). Have trucks filled with boys following the battlewagons so that they are out of LoS.

Most tau gunlines lack an effective way to deal with av14:

- elite slots will be filled with riptides (no fusion blaster suits)
- most broadsides use missiles rather than railguns
- riptides have to ensure they don't scatter or get hot.

You can actually use the battlewagons to move between tau units to prevent supporting fire LoS

AV14 can be a weakness in a Tau army so I agree here.

Generally I bring a hammerhead with long strike and a suicide crisis team with fusions to deal with AV14. However if other Tau players insist on bringing the triple riptide list then those S9 ion accelerator shots are not always a reliable method to take AV14 out. They have to nove charge, pass gets hot roll, hit target with the template and then penetrate and finally roll a 5 to explode a landraider. Not as easy as it sounds, even with ordance for 2D6 pick the highest.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
No, we should play on planet bowling ball, where Tau and Eldar can just blast everything off the table and win every game.

Or, you know, we could play with a decent mixture of terrain that add tactical depth to the game, like reasonable people.

It has been shown fairly convincingly on other threads that terrain doesn't really hamper at least the Eldar very much. In fact, in some circumstances, it helps them. No amount of "tactica. depth" can change the fact tha the Wave Serpent hits like a marine battle tank and is quasi immortal.


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 DarthOvious wrote:

 gossipmeng wrote:
If I were an ork player against a tau gunline, I'd go for battlewagons holding burnaboys (for the firewarriors) or nobs (for the riptides). Have trucks filled with boys following the battlewagons so that they are out of LoS.

Most tau gunlines lack an effective way to deal with av14:

- elite slots will be filled with riptides (no fusion blaster suits)
- most broadsides use missiles rather than railguns
- riptides have to ensure they don't scatter or get hot.

You can actually use the battlewagons to move between tau units to prevent supporting fire LoS

AV14 can be a weakness in a Tau army so I agree here.

Generally I bring a hammerhead with long strike and a suicide crisis team with fusions to deal with AV14. However if other Tau players insist on bringing the triple riptide list then those S9 ion accelerator shots are not always a reliable method to take AV14 out. They have to nove charge, pass gets hot roll, hit target with the template and then penetrate and finally roll a 5 to explode a landraider. Not as easy as it sounds, even with ordance for 2D6 pick the highest.

AV 14 units can't score and have marginal firepower. So is this actually important?

Boniface wrote:
Ok, so I play Tau, I admit that i find it heavily frustrating to hear so much negativity toward them but we'll not go into that now.
There has been a thread recently about how unfair Tau is and therefore not getting games so i wanted to ask for guidelines into what is considered 'fair' and what is considered 'too much'.
(I would like to state that i don't think this in its own right is right or fair but that is life).
The reason being I actually want to play the game and don't want to be a Tau guy that never gets games.

So how about we get some guidelines about what isn't fair (this is a genuine attempt at leveling playing field out a bit)

Just play what you want to play. There is always someone out there who will, not matter how pared down your army is, complain that it is overpowered. People are never happy when they have to step outside of their years old comfort bubbles to learn how to deal with an army again. People liked when Tau were overpriced and incapable of being a threat. Now Tau play like the army they have long been claimed to be and people hate it. They don't want to come up with new methods to deal with it. It is easier to complain about it and try to force Tau players to leave their good units at home just so the other guys can have an easy time of it. That is BS. Build your army. While someone is ranting about how over powered your list is, someone else will happily have a game with you.

I am laughing at reading the various lists of "stick to these guidelines" and people will be Ok with your army that pretty much amount to, don't include much of any of the good aspects of your army in your force or people will complain. Why bother playing the army if you can't use the decent units because of other players. You talk about a thread, but what about locally to you? Are you haveing problems getting games? Is the local community shunning you at events because you have Tau? If not then who cares what people say on Dakka. Dakka has a high whine factor for just about everything. Tau are too powerful, CSM is crap, DA flyers are useless...and the list goes on. If folks here aren't complaining about something they aren' t happy. Take their complaints with a grain of salt because a percentage of them have run their own netlists too so have no room to complain about others playing "unfair" armies.

Skriker


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 DanFST wrote:
Tau gunline, is boring to face. And incredibly boring to play. There's never enough LOS blocking terrain, and players that play it should be banished.

Simple solution: More LoS blocking terrain. We fill ourtables with terrain so no force with long reach can completely dominate the game from turn one. Maneuver and use of fire lanes and cover is a big part of our games. We don't want to play long range shooting battles where only the side with the most guns that shoot the farthest can win. Stupid to banish an army when you can just add more terrain and cut down on the excess of ANY gunline and not just a Tau gunline and also give more cover to melee units so they actually have a better chance of getting into melee.

Skriker

Makumba wrote:

 DanFST wrote:

Makumba wrote:
yeah we should all play with ton of LoS terrain , so that chaos demon players could get in to melee range unopposed and win every game .Same with meq players who using drop pods could ignore the LoS blockers and with fewer turns of shoting hiting them could roll over any non meq army.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Gunline Tau IS boring for everyone involved. It needs no tactics at all to be effective. I should know, i sold all my Tau a few weeks after the new codex. Due to it being so boring to play.

My army is IG , everything I tau do better. They have better gunlines , better mobility , can battle brother eldar , where I have to battle brother marines . Riptide >2 vendetta . If a table is made to "counter" tau or eldar , because the game is "boring" , aka marines and demons can lose, then my IG get spanked even harder . I would rather lose to tau and eldar who are superior and have a good chance other armies , then still lose to tau and eldar and lose to demons and marines too , just so that marine players find the game more "exciting" aka a free win against me .

I agree here. Changing things about will only mean that somebody else gets put to the bottom of the pile. Fill the board up with los blocking terrain then then the weaker shooting armies will end up at the bottom of the pile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

It has been shown fairly convincingly on other threads that terrain doesn't really hamper at least the Eldar very much. In fact, in some circumstances, it helps them. No amount of "tactica. depth" can change the fact tha the Wave Serpent hits like a marine battle tank and is quasi immortal.

This is true. Negating penetrating hits on a 2+ is really good. ALthough when I get wave serpents I plan to use serpent shields to add to the shooting value of the tank

AV 14 units can't score and have marginal firepower. So is this actually important?

Depends on what they are, what they do and what mission is being played. AV14 for me tends to be Land Raiders containing nasty units of terminators. Although they may not be able to score they certainly can wreck my units in the case they get into combat. In the case of Blood Angels their Land Raiders are dedicated transports and so therefore can carry scoring assault squads. In big guns never tire Leman Russ' can capture objectives. It depends on the game really.

All in all I'm not saying that Tau can't deal with AV14, they can and they can do it effectively, but the units that do it are the units that some Tau players don't generally consider too much. They either need to make way for a hammerhead which competes with Skyrays and Missilesides for heavy support slots or they have to specifically arm their crisis teams with fusions with crisis teams competeing against Riptides for Elite slots and also with other crisis builds like missile pods to consider.

I'll start limiting the number of riptides/skyrays/broadsides i bring in a tau army, when everyone else starts limiting how many Leman russ/waveserpents/venoms/vendettas/bikes/whatever everyone else brings.
Expecting a tau army to 'play fair' by not using certain units, without limiting yourself in what you bring, is sheer hypocrisy

Asking Tau players to self-nerf is insanity. Although, I guess that's what people are doing by refusing to play them.

I never refused to play GK back in 5th after their codex kicked my BA right in the jimmies. But then, the GK never shot me off the table like what is happen against Eldar and Tau. The marines just can't soak up the firepower well enough to make it a game most of the time.

I have to hope for abysmal dice from the Taudar turn 1 and 2. That's not very interesting to me.

Martel732 wrote:
Asking Tau players to self-nerf is insanity. Although, I guess that's what people are doing by refusing to play them.

This is true. Tau players will just say its their turn to be top of the board after being left out for a long time.

I never refused to play GK back in 5th after their codex kicked my BA right in the jimmies. But then, the GK never shot me off the table like what is happen against Eldar and Tau. The marines just can't soak up the firepower well enough to make it a game most of the time.

I agree here. Basic 3+ marines aren't really a problem for Tau. Even AP4 Tau weapons will make you take that many armour saves that you will fail them.

I have to hope for abysmal dice from the Taudar turn 1 and 2. That's not very interesting to me.

From one Blood Angels player to another the only advice I can give you is what you've already heard in the other thread and even then its not brilliant. Transport delivery in the form Land Raiders, Stormravens and Caestus Assault Rams. Ideally the Assault Rams as the best way to do it but then again they are a Forge World model which you may not be able to use/afford/want.

I last longer against Tau than Eldar, though. The pain starts at 36" against Eldar, and the Imperium can't bring enough 48" guns to compete in that bracket. This might be by design, but the marines can't do nearly enough damage at 24" either, because for every assault cannon, the Eldar have 5 or 6 scatter lasers. I don't mind the Tau and Eldar being *strong* but the turkey shoots aren't good for anyone looking for a good game.

Martel732 wrote:
I last longer against Tau than Eldar, though. The pain starts at 36" against Eldar, and the Imperium can't bring enough 48" guns to compete in that bracket. This might be by design, but the marines can't do nearly enough damage at 24" either, because for every assault cannon, the Eldar have 5 or 6 scatter lasers. I don't mind the Tau and Eldar being *strong* but the turkey shoots aren't good for anyone looking for a good game.

Understandable. Its a bit difficult to get there into combat and under this edition its all about delivery system for assault. Its not brilliant but its the best the Blood Angel players and others have to offer at the moment. The only other option is Vanguard Vets assaulting after deep striking and hope for a decent descent of angels roll, which one 1D6 is a lot better than a normal scatter and yes I know its a lot of points on such a gamble. If it does work though and you're target priority is right then it should give you a better chance than normal.

Locking up a single squad is meaningless against Eldar. Even if everything goes perfect with the VV, there is a good chance you will be assaulted by a Wraithknight the next turn. If your BA list has no blast weapons of any kind, then there is no reason for the Eldar to not stack on top of each other for protection.

Martel732 wrote:
Locking up a single squad is meaningless against Eldar. Even if everything goes perfect with the VV, there is a good chance you will be assaulted by a Wraithknight the next turn. If your BA list has no blast weapons of any kind, then there is no reason for the Eldar to not stack on top of each other for protection.

Yes, absolutely. However its part of the best plan we can come up with at the moment. Like I said its not brilliant, but you'll do a lot better than footslogging it up the table. The trick is to get two or three units tied up in combat in turn 2. Hard to do I know, but the best plan we can make. Wraithknights are just begging for a Libby to instant kill them with a force weapon using sanguine sword. The only thing to consider is the delivery method. How to get there with a decent chance of making it.

My first army EVER was Grey Knights, I bought them in 2007 all metal, and an old flimsy Codex from my LGS. I just preferred the look of the book and the look of the models over everything else. I played that army dedicated all the way to the 5th Edition release I bought all replacement models to make my army again.

All terminators with a Grand Master and Paladin host. Dreadknight and the entire army deep struck, nothing started on the table. Against most armies, this thing was a stinker (Dark Eldar always just creamed me.) But every time I put the army on the table I got "Ah come on, Grey Knights? Pfft." The only people that didn't say that were the ones that saw me struggle through them early on... and saw me play an Ard Boyz with them. (That was devastating to partake in.)

Anyway, long winded way to say... Play the army the way you want to play it and don't worry what others think of you. Tau get a bad rep, and they will until another books comes out that crushes them. I will say that cheesing out to play friendly though isn't great. Haha.

As a fellow Tau player.....Play what the hell you want. Tau are good, other people just have to deal with it. Like when necrons stomped are putukus, we sat back and took it.

Boniface wrote:
So is 2 at 1850 fair or unfair?

This is why people don't play Tau players. Someone tells you not to take Riptides so you take 2 instead of 3.

Tau players will stop fielding Riptides when Eldar Players stop fielding Wave Serpents and Wraithknights, Daemons stop fielding Fateweaver or the Grimiore, CSM players stop fielding Helldrakes, SM players stop mounting Grav on their Bikes, Necron stop taking small warrior squads in Night Scythes or Wraiths led by Destroyer Lords...

We can look at alot of armies and come up with things we hate and wish we didn't have to face. But, tough, we play the game through its ups and downs. If you don't like what you are facing either stop playing, adapt your army, start a new army, or wait out the Meta shift. People can complain as much as they want about Tau, but Tau by itself is beatable, its when Eldar get thrown into the mix it gets much tougher. And pure Eldar are worse yet.

Learn, adapt, play, have fun. This is 40k and every codex or two we get rage threads popping up about the worst thing around, lamenting terrible game design, etc. Hell, I've been guilty of it from time to time myself. We either move on and enjoy the game, or we won't. Constant complaining isn't very productive.

The pages and pages and hours spent on this thread would have been better spent on the army list and tactics sections learning how to deal and adapt to Tau. It part of the game. Yes, we all want a more balanced game, and IMO 6th has been better than it was in the past, unfortunately the velocity and ease of information the internet now provides tends to oversimplify and alter the Meta faster than ever before. This edition brought big changes, and we haven't felt the last of them yet. Give it 6 months, I bet we start seeing Tau thread titled, "How do Tau handle the new meta?" or "How to Tau beat X?".

Learn. Adapt. Play. Enjoy the game.

I think the thread is long and full of "whining" because most lists *can't* adapt well to the Tau. Even when meqs get to assault them, they take huge casualties from the special overwatch rules.

By the reality of the way 6th edition works, most meqs and their equipment are *still* overcosted, especially Chaos meqs.

Assault elements are especially overcosted, since 75% of them never make it to where they are going. And then, they only to assault some squad that the opponent doesn't care about.

And every compliant people have about the Tau are just 50% more true with Eldar.

I swear that GW writers are allergic to math.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
It doesn't matter what the list is, you still have to roll dice to kill me.

Love that!

Really I think the biggest shinanigan that comes with Tau is as Rommel44 mentioned, is how they can take advantage of the new rules 6th edition has come out with. The book in itself is fine IMO however it does have a tendancy to really take advantage of the rules, primarily those in regards to shooting, cover ect. better then any other. Now will I refuse to play a list that has x3 Riptides? No, only if the Tau player gives me a reason not such as poor, cocky attitude ect.

For example I played a game last week was my Elysians with the FW (Imperial Armor 3 Second Edition) rules against a x4 Riptide gunline army that had just beaten down my buddies Eldar and the guy would not stop bragging about it (aka cocky prick). Needless to say after my x2 Twin Linked Punisher Cannon Vulture Gunships took down a Riptide apiece and my Vendettas with Valkyrie Multilaser support took down a third all on the turn they arrived on, my Tau opponent flipped out calling my army "cheese", I could not help but laugh when he said that with a straight face starting at me with x4 Riptides on the table...well there was only x1 at that point .

However that is not every Tau opponent and I realize this, also I love the Riptide model and the challenge that Tau bring to the table. The store I play at is super competitive anyways so I have gotten alot of good practice against the Blueberries and their suits. That, and if they are willing to fight my Elysian Air Cav army then I will be willing to take on any list they throw at me. Bottom line take what you want to play with, just keep in mind that if your opponent has a list that will struggle and you want to play casual, ease up your list and take things you usually wouldnt.

Model your fire-warriors so they are in wheelchairs, surely nobody would back out of fighting a cripple?

Do what you want and tell people to Feth off. This is a game, your W/L/D record only matters in tournies IMO and when in a tourney I would expect nothing but the hardest, and best lists to be put together no matter how "unfair" people think they are.

Players need to out grow the pessimistic "no chance to win" thought and just play.

 mattyrm wrote:
Model your fire-warriors so they are in wheelchairs, surely nobody would back out of fighting a cripple?

BRILLIANT! Model your Etheral to be holding a cane and have sunglasses so he is also blind, double protection!

 DanFST wrote:

Makumba wrote:
yeah we should all play with ton of LoS terrain , so that chaos demon players could get in to melee range unopposed and win every game .Same with meq players who using drop pods could ignore the LoS blockers and with fewer turns of shoting hiting them could roll over any non meq army.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Gunline Tau IS boring for everyone involved. It needs no tactics at all to be effective. I should know, i sold all my Tau a few weeks after the new codex. Due to it being so boring to play.

I actually have fun playing the resident tau gunlines. I play tau myself (pirhannas and kroot heavy) and knowing the tricks for picking apart a gunline comes pretty quick.

My marines drop in stupid close and eat it for a turn. Even after a full turn of shooting (granted you thin them out in your first shooting phase) whats left of the marines is decent enough to clean house in close combat, avoiding intercept plates isn't so hard (you can use LOS, or hug enemy models) and what cant avoid the intercept, can be mitigated against by presenting more pressing threats. Its fun if only for the shock you get to drink when it dont work as planned for the tau player

Playing as the gunline though, i'snt super fun....

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, and I've never had a mono Tau list shoot me off the table as fast as mono Eldar can do it. So which is the abusive army?

Both.

 gmaleron wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Model your fire-warriors so they are in wheelchairs, surely nobody would back out of fighting a cripple?

BRILLIANT! Model your Etheral to be holding a cane and have sunglasses so he is also blind, double protection!

Aun'Va is already in a wheelchair. Maybe use Jokeroo models for his body guards and claim they are helper monkeys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 davou wrote:


I actually have fun playing the resident tau gunlines. I play tau myself (pirhannas and kroot heavy) and knowing the tricks for picking apart a gunline comes pretty quick.

My marines drop in stupid close and eat it for a turn. Even after a full turn of shooting (granted you thin them out in your first shooting phase) whats left of the marines is decent enough to clean house in close combat, avoiding intercept plates isn't so hard (you can use LOS, or hug enemy models) and what cant avoid the intercept, can be mitigated against by presenting more pressing threats. Its fun if only for the shock you get to drink when it dont work as planned for the tau player

Playing as the gunline though, i'snt super fun....

Yeah, I have a SW pod list in my back pocket that will make those blue bottoms covered in brown. Cris-crossing Jaws of the World Wolf is a nightmare for any Tau (or Necron) Gunline.

"Tau are OP and unfair" seems to be flavour of the month at the moment.

I don't know how true it is. There have been so many OP codexes in recent years. Every new codex quickly produced an OP netlist which was popular and hated for a few months.

Rather than blame Tau specially or the 6th edition rules, how about changing game styles?

Reduce the number of points played. 2,000 is too much. 1,500 forces more difficult choices from your codex and increases the need to manoeuvre because you can't easily cover the table with units.

Ban allies and aegis defence lines.

Increase the amount of terrain. Too many people play with too little terrain on the table.

anyone who calls any list I play OP gets an immediate invitation to restart the game with armies swapped

Curbing the 'thats OP, dont bring it to this club' attitude has done immense good for the overall strength of the players at my FLGS.

Martel732 wrote:
I think the thread is long and full of "whining" because most lists *can't* adapt well to the Tau. Even when meqs get to assault them, they take huge casualties from the special overwatch rules.

By the reality of the way 6th edition works, most meqs and their equipment are *still* overcosted, especially Chaos meqs.

Assault elements are especially overcosted, since 75% of them never make it to where they are going. And then, they only to assault some squad that the opponent doesn't care about.

And every compliant people have about the Tau are just 50% more true with Eldar.

I swear that GW writers are allergic to math.

Hey Martel,

From one BA player to another, did you see the new rules for the Fire Raptor? I'm not sure if you use FW or not.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/fire-raptor.pdf

I know all the Tau suits are immune to blind but it can still assisst in the assault of some of your units. Fire the blast, deep strike with Vanguard Vets (without scattering) and then assault. Would make a good combo.


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 mattyrm wrote:
Model your fire-warriors so they are in wheelchairs, surely nobody would back out of fighting a cripple?

Lol, I love it. Also give Crisis suits walking sticks.


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 gmaleron wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Model your fire-warriors so they are in wheelchairs, surely nobody would back out of fighting a cripple?

BRILLIANT! Model your Etheral to be holding a cane and have sunglasses so he is also blind, double protection!

Looks like someone else came up with this suggestion before me.

 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the thread is long and full of "whining" because most lists *can't* adapt well to the Tau. Even when meqs get to assault them, they take huge casualties from the special overwatch rules.

By the reality of the way 6th edition works, most meqs and their equipment are *still* overcosted, especially Chaos meqs.

Assault elements are especially overcosted, since 75% of them never make it to where they are going. And then, they only to assault some squad that the opponent doesn't care about.

And every compliant people have about the Tau are just 50% more true with Eldar.

I swear that GW writers are allergic to math.

Hey Martel,

From one BA player to another, did you see the new rules for the Fire Raptor? I'm not sure if you use FW or not.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/fire-raptor.pdf

I know all the Tau suits are immune to blind but it can still assisst in the assault of some of your units. Fire the blast, deep strike with Vanguard Vets (without scattering) and then assault. Would make a good combo.

You've got the same problem as the dimensional key though - Flier arrives turn two. Fires missiles. Hope something didn't turn up and is then ready to be deployed on turn 3. If you take a comm link on an aegis, this would have a better chance of working.

50p says Vanguard Vets won't keep being able to assault from reserve either - they've already taken it off everything else... :(

A friend is experimenting with plasma honour guard DoA ing out of a raven. The squad lands and fries something and the raven never has to go into hover mode

And it can arrive, then drop troops before interceptor kicks in - meaning you don't have to worry about them being blown up along with the storm raven.

 davou wrote:
I actually have fun playing the resident tau gunlines. I play tau myself (pirhannas and kroot heavy) and knowing the tricks for picking apart a gunline comes pretty quick.

It certainly can be done. I have lost some games. If you know you're playing against Tau to begin with then its easier. You just need a fast list which gets right in your opponents face from the start. Things like Bikes, Drop Pods, Transports, etc. Include some long range fire support TFC, Devs with Plasma Cannons, etc and you're good to go.

My marines drop in stupid close and eat it for a turn. Even after a full turn of shooting (granted you thin them out in your first shooting phase) whats left of the marines is decent enough to clean house in close combat, avoiding intercept plates isn't so hard (you can use LOS, or hug enemy models) and what cant avoid the intercept, can be mitigated against by presenting more pressing threats. Its fun if only for the shock you get to drink when it dont work as planned for the tau player

In my list the interceptor usually goes on my Broadsides. Its still possible to avoid them though. SMS is 30" but so is one of the ammo types for sternguard vets. One of my opponents brought his sternguard down in a drop pod, so he was over 30" range from my SMS, out of sight for the HYMP but still in range of some of my other units for his 30" special ammo shots.

Playing as the gunline though, i'snt super fun....

I'm fine with it, but the players I play with are good for a bit of banter during the game so thats why it doesn't get boring for me.


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 PredaKhaine wrote:
You've got the same problem as the dimensional key though - Flier arrives turn two. Fires missiles. Hope something didn't turn up and is then ready to be deployed on turn 3. If you take a comm link on an aegis, this would have a better chance of working.

Thats true. You really need to hope you can fire the flier first before deep striking the vanguard

50p says Vanguard Vets won't keep being able to assault from reserve either - they've already taken it off everything else... :(

Sorry can you clarrify? From what I know at this point in time it is my understanding that the Vanguard Vets from the Blood Angels codex can still assault after a deep strike. Although I do fully expect this to change in the next codex.

A friend is experimenting with plasma honour guard DoA ing out of a raven. The squad lands and fries something and the raven never has to go into hover mode

Yes, the Skies of Blood Special rule is very rarely used but can be effective sometimes.

For better or for worse no one in play group allows FW.Saves us all a lot of $$, at least

 DarthOvious wrote:

Sorry can you clarrify? Although I do fully expect this to change in the next codex.

I don't need to clarify - you got my point

The only question is whether they get rid of it in the digital codex or it survives to the next paper codex.

 PredaKhaine wrote:

I don't need to clarify - you got my point

The only question is whether they get rid of it in the digital codex or it survives to the next paper codex.

Ah, fair enough. If it gets changed in the digital codex then they will need to decrease the points for the Vanguard to being more inline with the SM codex. I don't think this will happen. A lot of the BA players on another forum were hopeful for changes but then somebody pointed out that it looks like the only things they are going to add are the errata and a picture gallery.


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Martel732 wrote:
For better or for worse no one in play group allows FW.Saves us all a lot of $$, at least

I have some forge world stuff which I use from time to time but I don't solely rely on it.

 gmaleron wrote:
Really I think the biggest shinanigan that comes with Tau is as Rommel44 mentioned, is how they can take advantage of the new rules 6th edition has come out with. The book in itself is fine IMO however it does have a tendancy to really take advantage of the rules, primarily those in regards to shooting, cover ect. better then any other. Now will I refuse to play a list that has x3 Riptides? No, only if the Tau player gives me a reason not such as poor, cocky attitude ect.

For example I played a game last week was my Elysians with the FW (Imperial Armor 3 Second Edition) rules against a x4 Riptide gunline army that had just beaten down my buddies Eldar and the guy would not stop bragging about it (aka cocky prick). Needless to say after my x2 Twin Linked Punisher Cannon Vulture Gunships took down a Riptide apiece and my Vendettas with Valkyrie Multilaser support took down a third all on the turn they arrived on, my Tau opponent flipped out calling my army "cheese", I could not help but laugh when he said that with a straight face starting at me with x4 Riptides on the table...well there was only x1 at that point .

However that is not every Tau opponent and I realize this, also I love the Riptide model and the challenge that Tau bring to the table. The store I play at is super competitive anyways so I have gotten alot of good practice against the Blueberries and their suits. That, and if they are willing to fight my Elysian Air Cav army then I will be willing to take on any list they throw at me. Bottom line take what you want to play with, just keep in mind that if your opponent has a list that will struggle and you want to play casual, ease up your list and take things you usually wouldnt.

Exactly my point. The Tau book, while strong, in itself isn't OP, its just the rules for 6th give the Tau the biggest advantage compared to most of the other armies due to the fact that there biggest strength is the shooting phase, and with a edition built towards shooting, it makes them standout. Although the only thing I really hate is the marketlight spam and the ability to use it for overwatch and skyfire, personally I think that makes them a bit too strong in the shooting phase bbut besides that I think they are a beatable army. Its just not fun to fight the same boring Tau list with masses of pathfinders and Riptides, gets old really quick as many power gamers have gone Tau just for that reason.

the terrain comment is a big one. I never see people play with more than 1 or 2 real line of sight blocks in the middle of the board. You honestly expect a 30" gap of no line of sight blocking against a very nasty shooty army to not bode badly for you?

Special kind of stupid, that is.

Theres a couple of guys at my FLGS that always play with a LOT of terrain. Personally i think they go a little too high as i wouldnt even be able to play my orks at all in that battlefield since they'd be forced to congaline everything, but they have the right idea - both tau and eldar are taken down a notch in that battlefield because their guns are on average getting 20-28" shots off at best, rather than max range from turn 1.

Boniface wrote:
So how about we get some guidelines about what isn't fair (this is a genuine attempt at leveling playing field out a bit)

As long as the points are roughly the same and everybody follows the rules, I'm not sure how you can make it any fairer. Now if you want less one-sided...that is a little different.

The concept Tau army I'm working on is an expeditionary force cut off from supply lines with limited resources; mostly infantry, with very limited access to larger Battlesuits and tanks (no more Stealthsuits than Fire Warriors and Pathfinders, no more than one Crisis team per two Stealthsuit or Infantry units, no more than one Riptide or heavy vehicle (Hammerhead, Sky Ray, Flyer) per two Crisis teams, and an HQ choice counts as a Crisis team if it's got a Battlesuit and an infantry unit otherwise. The army itself is still in the planning phase (I have several unassembled boxes of units and a fully-painted Stealth team), but I suspect it's a much more casual force than the typical build.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the terrain comment is a big one. I never see people play with more than 1 or 2 real line of sight blocks in the middle of the board. You honestly expect a 30" gap of no line of sight blocking against a very nasty shooty army to not bode badly for you?

Special kind of stupid, that is.

Theres a couple of guys at my FLGS that always play with a LOT of terrain. Personally i think they go a little too high as i wouldnt even be able to play my orks at all in that battlefield since they'd be forced to congaline everything, but they have the right idea - both tau and eldar are taken down a notch in that battlefield because their guns are on average getting 20-28" shots off at best, rather than max range from turn 1.

Played few games on tables with 3-4 LoS blocking terrains. awesome games . first turn demons fly , everything that is not in deep strike is out of LoS or in reserv.. Turn two drake comes flames my units , hides behind tower. His kairos , screamers and a DP hide behind another tower horrors deep strike and run to hide out of LoS. . My vendettas are the only thing that can draw LoS to anything . I do some pot shots at kairos hoping for a grounding test fail , but it doesn't happen. Third turn everything that can flys near my army opens fire , screamers multi charge destroys my tanks . Kairos and the DP kill 2 of my chimers both horror units move out of hiding and unload with 6d6 vs my vendettas butts . the helldrake swoops the other valkyria and takes another go flaming what is left of my blob. On my third turn my valk comes in , he kills off in melee my vet units and am left with 2 dudes from a HQ section and a valk with some vets inside . What awesome games those 4 LoS blocking gave me , so much stuff to do for 2 turns and then all the action on turn 3&4.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
These threads still kill me. In 5th I never had a shortage of players that would field a ton of missile launchers and lascannons to one shot my expensive suits and broadsides and every game was an uphill battle. When I mentioned how hard it was I got the response "That's just how it goes with an out of date codex"

So my answer to what's 'fair' use is anything you find in the codex and within the FOC limitations. I never saw people change their list to cater to my underpowered codex before so I don't think it warrants me returning the favor.

Best response in the thread.

Nearly every codex has had its "hayday" at some point, and very, VERY few of the players of those codices at those times showed any mercy or consideration to other players.

The only correct answer to your question, is to simply play with any units you want. If you like a model or you like a model's rules, take it. At the very MAXIMUM, the only consideration you should show is to not suck all the life out of your list by simply spamming three or four units. But even then, if that's what what you want to do, everyone else can suck it.

Makumba wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the terrain comment is a big one. I never see people play with more than 1 or 2 real line of sight blocks in the middle of the board. You honestly expect a 30" gap of no line of sight blocking against a very nasty shooty army to not bode badly for you?

Special kind of stupid, that is.

Theres a couple of guys at my FLGS that always play with a LOT of terrain. Personally i think they go a little too high as i wouldnt even be able to play my orks at all in that battlefield since they'd be forced to congaline everything, but they have the right idea - both tau and eldar are taken down a notch in that battlefield because their guns are on average getting 20-28" shots off at best, rather than max range from turn 1.

Played few games on tables with 3-4 LoS blocking terrains. awesome games . first turn demons fly , everything that is not in deep strike is out of LoS or in reserv.. Turn two drake comes flames my units , hides behind tower. His kairos , screamers and a DP hide behind another tower horrors deep strike and run to hide out of LoS. . My vendettas are the only thing that can draw LoS to anything . I do some pot shots at kairos hoping for a grounding test fail , but it doesn't happen. Third turn everything that can flys near my army opens fire , screamers multi charge destroys my tanks . Kairos and the DP kill 2 of my chimers both horror units move out of hiding and unload with 6d6 vs my vendettas butts . the helldrake swoops the other valkyria and takes another go flaming what is left of my blob. On my third turn my valk comes in , he kills off in melee my vet units and am left with 2 dudes from a HQ section and a valk with some vets inside . What awesome games those 4 LoS blocking gave me , so much stuff to do for 2 turns and then all the action on turn 3&4.

I find it interesting that you are one of the proponents of the, "suck it up and deal with it" position when it comes to Tau or other "OP" armies. But when the tables are turned you are going to complain to high heaven without the smallest sense of irony?

On topic, I think that changing your list to fit the people you are playing is respectful and the right thing to do. I am not going to field a double Flyrant and Tervigon spam list against the twelve year old kid who just started playing C:SM. I will take a list with a bunch of Hormagaunts, Genestealers, and Raveners running up the field at him giving him at least two or three turns to shoot the crap out of me so that he can still have fun.

Tau are top dogs right now, Taudar and Eldau being tournament winners. They aren't unbeatable, the codex isn't OP but is probably the most solid codex GW has ever released with EVERY unit being viable, and 6th is the most shooty edition that has been largely based on shooty for three editions makes them extremely powerful. For people who like to play around with their friends once a week while throwing dice and laughing wont like them. I collected Tau when they first came out, had them sitting around for the longest time until they got their 6th codex and pulled them back out. You know what happened? I sold them. I had so little fun playing them that I got rid of them, I know the codex very well, I know their supposed weaknesses. I will say that people who pump up their weaknesses are being ridiculous. Melee? Yeah, right, assaulting in 6th. Killing markerlight support, so what? Then they are just like guard which is still 50% hit rate. That's not BAD.

Makumba wrote:
Played few games on tables with 3-4 LoS blocking terrains. awesome games . first turn demons fly , everything that is not in deep strike is out of LoS or in reserv.. Turn two drake comes flames my units , hides behind tower. His kairos , screamers and a DP hide behind another tower horrors deep strike and run to hide out of LoS. . My vendettas are the only thing that can draw LoS to anything . I do some pot shots at kairos hoping for a grounding test fail , but it doesn't happen. Third turn everything that can flys near my army opens fire , screamers multi charge destroys my tanks . Kairos and the DP kill 2 of my chimers both horror units move out of hiding and unload with 6d6 vs my vendettas butts . the helldrake swoops the other valkyria and takes another go flaming what is left of my blob. On my third turn my valk comes in , he kills off in melee my vet units and am left with 2 dudes from a HQ section and a valk with some vets inside . What awesome games those 4 LoS blocking gave me , so much stuff to do for 2 turns and then all the action on turn 3&4.

Exactly the person I thought of when it comes to more terrain on the table. You complain when there is too much terrain on the table because the daemons might spank you again. You then complain that the tau continually out shoot you on completley open tables. Can't have it both ways. Judging from your comments it sounds like you've played on open tables a lot and are used to dominating the gunline mode and crushing your opponents and now are unhappy because the tau are now doing it to you instead. Here is a little hint, though, if you are playing against tau and know you are playing against tau you can stack the table with LOS blocking terrain and it will limit the tau as much as they limit you on being able to dominate in cross table shooting action. There are no fears of screamerstar when you ALREADY KNOW YOU ARE PLAYING AGAINST TAU. By all means, though, please continue to demand the table stay wide open and then complain that your army gets owned by the tau because of it.

A further point here, a single game against daemons where it sounds like the dice were most definitely going in the daemon player's favor is hardly enough to gauge how the game works with more terrain on the table. My group plays with terrain stacked tables exclusively. Not every game goes like the spanking you took above. Nor do even most of the games come out that way. Such a one sided occurance happens rarely for either side, except when they can't seem to roll wrong for anything. Most of the games are very close as neither side has a total advantage in such a table and that was even BEFORE the return of overwatch fire or variable charge distances either. The majority of the games are not decided until close to the very end and they are always interesting for everyone. It doesn't take most players long to realize that a mostly open table solely favors the army with the most long range fire power. The people who complain loudest about LoS blocking terrain are those who, unsuprisingly, play armies full of long range fire power. It is also funny to hear those same people complain about another army out long range fire powering them on the table too.

Skriker

I do agree that using appropriate terrain could alleviate much of the groans over tau.

If your only terrain is some low walls, trees, and buildings with massive holes/windows..... then yeah tau will destroy you.

Try using walls that are 2-3" tall or place a building in the middle with no windows or damage to shoot through. My tau can't remove your cover if you are standing behind a reinforced wall. My broadsides may target you with smart missiles if you are out of LoS, but that also means their main armament won't be shooting that turn.

I started my Tau in '01. If someone wants to complain about my pathfinders, i hand them one, the weight of metal models usually shuts them up.
I also started eldar in '96. I'm now sitting at 5500pts, the only things that are plastic in the army are the jetbikes. vypers, 2 falcons, and 60 of 120 guardians.
Once people see the age and style of my armies most complaints go away. For me it's about knowing my armies. Do I use new units, yes. And I work l them to fit into my playstyles.

Of course always being able to drop a metal krootox on someone's foot keeps a smile on my face.

Surely a long-term Tau player is in a better position to intentionally weaken their list for a fair game than newer players, as they would have a larger selection of models to field and the know-how to play a weaker list.

 dpal666 wrote:
I started my Tau in '01. If someone wants to complain about my pathfinders, i hand them one, the weight of metal models usually shuts them up.
I also started eldar in '96. I'm now sitting at 5500pts, the only things that are plastic in the army are the jetbikes. vypers, 2 falcons, and 60 of 120 guardians.
Once people see the age and style of my armies most complaints go away. For me it's about knowing my armies. Do I use new units, yes. And I work l them to fit into my playstyles.

Of course always being able to drop a metal krootox on someone's foot keeps a smile on my face.

But the new Pathfinders are so pretty! And the kit and accessories are so awesome... truly, by clinging to solely the metals, you are doing yourself a true disservice.

I hate this type of discussion. I don't like people who refuse to play certain armies. I play against any army, any time, any where. I play Tyranids and have lost way more games then I have won since 6th Ed. When Tau came out I thought all was lost and I almost walked away from the game. But I adapted my army and changed tactics. These are the rules and codecs designed by GW whether good or bad and we all have to learn to adapt.

That being said the Tau community has to admit that they have cultivated this hate on themselves. You know what I am talking about. Cheese ball forge world guns on 3 riptides and crappy experimental rule sets for them in a "friendly" game. I think we have all seen that at some point.

To overcome your problem though I would bring a few different lists depending on the audience. Bring your best tournament ready list and then bring some lists with things you want to try. Always bring a competitive list. Maybe try a mission that not in the standard book to change things up. And if someone says they don't want to play your Tau, just remember that when they get their cheese ball codex and now all of a sudden are chomping at the bit to play you.

I say juice up your list to your hearts content.
I personally don't think it's appropriate to expect people to dumb down their list just to make their opponent happy.
I don't recall anybody shouting down GK players into fielding "more competitive" builds. Where are the Blood Angels players asking about how they can avoid tabling their opponent?
I would be insulted if my opponent brought anything less than his best list. It makes winning all the sweeter, and it makes losing feel understandable and justified.

But I began playing in a rather dog-eat-dog group. If there are units that you just can't get past, then YOU have got the problem, not your opponent. If the army list is legal, end of story.
If I'm playing DE against Tau, the thrill and challenge and fun of the game for me would be figuring out how to deny my opponent his strengths.

In short, you shouldn't give a crap what your opponent thinks about your list. Their complaining is a testament to their own unpreparedness and inability to adapt to battlefield conditions.