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Martel732 wrote:
Asking Tau players to self-nerf is insanity. Although, I guess that's what people are doing by refusing to play them.

This is true. Tau players will just say its their turn to be top of the board after being left out for a long time.

I never refused to play GK back in 5th after their codex kicked my BA right in the jimmies. But then, the GK never shot me off the table like what is happen against Eldar and Tau. The marines just can't soak up the firepower well enough to make it a game most of the time.

I agree here. Basic 3+ marines aren't really a problem for Tau. Even AP4 Tau weapons will make you take that many armour saves that you will fail them.

I have to hope for abysmal dice from the Taudar turn 1 and 2. That's not very interesting to me.

From one Blood Angels player to another the only advice I can give you is what you've already heard in the other thread and even then its not brilliant. Transport delivery in the form Land Raiders, Stormravens and Caestus Assault Rams. Ideally the Assault Rams as the best way to do it but then again they are a Forge World model which you may not be able to use/afford/want.

I last longer against Tau than Eldar, though. The pain starts at 36" against Eldar, and the Imperium can't bring enough 48" guns to compete in that bracket. This might be by design, but the marines can't do nearly enough damage at 24" either, because for every assault cannon, the Eldar have 5 or 6 scatter lasers. I don't mind the Tau and Eldar being *strong* but the turkey shoots aren't good for anyone looking for a good game.

Martel732 wrote:
I last longer against Tau than Eldar, though. The pain starts at 36" against Eldar, and the Imperium can't bring enough 48" guns to compete in that bracket. This might be by design, but the marines can't do nearly enough damage at 24" either, because for every assault cannon, the Eldar have 5 or 6 scatter lasers. I don't mind the Tau and Eldar being *strong* but the turkey shoots aren't good for anyone looking for a good game.

Understandable. Its a bit difficult to get there into combat and under this edition its all about delivery system for assault. Its not brilliant but its the best the Blood Angel players and others have to offer at the moment. The only other option is Vanguard Vets assaulting after deep striking and hope for a decent descent of angels roll, which one 1D6 is a lot better than a normal scatter and yes I know its a lot of points on such a gamble. If it does work though and you're target priority is right then it should give you a better chance than normal.

Locking up a single squad is meaningless against Eldar. Even if everything goes perfect with the VV, there is a good chance you will be assaulted by a Wraithknight the next turn. If your BA list has no blast weapons of any kind, then there is no reason for the Eldar to not stack on top of each other for protection.

Martel732 wrote:
Locking up a single squad is meaningless against Eldar. Even if everything goes perfect with the VV, there is a good chance you will be assaulted by a Wraithknight the next turn. If your BA list has no blast weapons of any kind, then there is no reason for the Eldar to not stack on top of each other for protection.

Yes, absolutely. However its part of the best plan we can come up with at the moment. Like I said its not brilliant, but you'll do a lot better than footslogging it up the table. The trick is to get two or three units tied up in combat in turn 2. Hard to do I know, but the best plan we can make. Wraithknights are just begging for a Libby to instant kill them with a force weapon using sanguine sword. The only thing to consider is the delivery method. How to get there with a decent chance of making it.

My first army EVER was Grey Knights, I bought them in 2007 all metal, and an old flimsy Codex from my LGS. I just preferred the look of the book and the look of the models over everything else. I played that army dedicated all the way to the 5th Edition release I bought all replacement models to make my army again.

All terminators with a Grand Master and Paladin host. Dreadknight and the entire army deep struck, nothing started on the table. Against most armies, this thing was a stinker (Dark Eldar always just creamed me.) But every time I put the army on the table I got "Ah come on, Grey Knights? Pfft." The only people that didn't say that were the ones that saw me struggle through them early on... and saw me play an Ard Boyz with them. (That was devastating to partake in.)

Anyway, long winded way to say... Play the army the way you want to play it and don't worry what others think of you. Tau get a bad rep, and they will until another books comes out that crushes them. I will say that cheesing out to play friendly though isn't great. Haha.

As a fellow Tau player.....Play what the hell you want. Tau are good, other people just have to deal with it. Like when necrons stomped are putukus, we sat back and took it.

Boniface wrote:
So is 2 at 1850 fair or unfair?

This is why people don't play Tau players. Someone tells you not to take Riptides so you take 2 instead of 3.

Tau players will stop fielding Riptides when Eldar Players stop fielding Wave Serpents and Wraithknights, Daemons stop fielding Fateweaver or the Grimiore, CSM players stop fielding Helldrakes, SM players stop mounting Grav on their Bikes, Necron stop taking small warrior squads in Night Scythes or Wraiths led by Destroyer Lords...

We can look at alot of armies and come up with things we hate and wish we didn't have to face. But, tough, we play the game through its ups and downs. If you don't like what you are facing either stop playing, adapt your army, start a new army, or wait out the Meta shift. People can complain as much as they want about Tau, but Tau by itself is beatable, its when Eldar get thrown into the mix it gets much tougher. And pure Eldar are worse yet.

Learn, adapt, play, have fun. This is 40k and every codex or two we get rage threads popping up about the worst thing around, lamenting terrible game design, etc. Hell, I've been guilty of it from time to time myself. We either move on and enjoy the game, or we won't. Constant complaining isn't very productive.

The pages and pages and hours spent on this thread would have been better spent on the army list and tactics sections learning how to deal and adapt to Tau. It part of the game. Yes, we all want a more balanced game, and IMO 6th has been better than it was in the past, unfortunately the velocity and ease of information the internet now provides tends to oversimplify and alter the Meta faster than ever before. This edition brought big changes, and we haven't felt the last of them yet. Give it 6 months, I bet we start seeing Tau thread titled, "How do Tau handle the new meta?" or "How to Tau beat X?".

Learn. Adapt. Play. Enjoy the game.

I think the thread is long and full of "whining" because most lists *can't* adapt well to the Tau. Even when meqs get to assault them, they take huge casualties from the special overwatch rules.

By the reality of the way 6th edition works, most meqs and their equipment are *still* overcosted, especially Chaos meqs.

Assault elements are especially overcosted, since 75% of them never make it to where they are going. And then, they only to assault some squad that the opponent doesn't care about.

And every compliant people have about the Tau are just 50% more true with Eldar.

I swear that GW writers are allergic to math.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
It doesn't matter what the list is, you still have to roll dice to kill me.

Love that!

Really I think the biggest shinanigan that comes with Tau is as Rommel44 mentioned, is how they can take advantage of the new rules 6th edition has come out with. The book in itself is fine IMO however it does have a tendancy to really take advantage of the rules, primarily those in regards to shooting, cover ect. better then any other. Now will I refuse to play a list that has x3 Riptides? No, only if the Tau player gives me a reason not such as poor, cocky attitude ect.

For example I played a game last week was my Elysians with the FW (Imperial Armor 3 Second Edition) rules against a x4 Riptide gunline army that had just beaten down my buddies Eldar and the guy would not stop bragging about it (aka cocky prick). Needless to say after my x2 Twin Linked Punisher Cannon Vulture Gunships took down a Riptide apiece and my Vendettas with Valkyrie Multilaser support took down a third all on the turn they arrived on, my Tau opponent flipped out calling my army "cheese", I could not help but laugh when he said that with a straight face starting at me with x4 Riptides on the table...well there was only x1 at that point .

However that is not every Tau opponent and I realize this, also I love the Riptide model and the challenge that Tau bring to the table. The store I play at is super competitive anyways so I have gotten alot of good practice against the Blueberries and their suits. That, and if they are willing to fight my Elysian Air Cav army then I will be willing to take on any list they throw at me. Bottom line take what you want to play with, just keep in mind that if your opponent has a list that will struggle and you want to play casual, ease up your list and take things you usually wouldnt.

Model your fire-warriors so they are in wheelchairs, surely nobody would back out of fighting a cripple?

Do what you want and tell people to Feth off. This is a game, your W/L/D record only matters in tournies IMO and when in a tourney I would expect nothing but the hardest, and best lists to be put together no matter how "unfair" people think they are.

Players need to out grow the pessimistic "no chance to win" thought and just play.

 mattyrm wrote:
Model your fire-warriors so they are in wheelchairs, surely nobody would back out of fighting a cripple?

BRILLIANT! Model your Etheral to be holding a cane and have sunglasses so he is also blind, double protection!

 DanFST wrote:

Makumba wrote:
yeah we should all play with ton of LoS terrain , so that chaos demon players could get in to melee range unopposed and win every game .Same with meq players who using drop pods could ignore the LoS blockers and with fewer turns of shoting hiting them could roll over any non meq army.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Gunline Tau IS boring for everyone involved. It needs no tactics at all to be effective. I should know, i sold all my Tau a few weeks after the new codex. Due to it being so boring to play.

I actually have fun playing the resident tau gunlines. I play tau myself (pirhannas and kroot heavy) and knowing the tricks for picking apart a gunline comes pretty quick.

My marines drop in stupid close and eat it for a turn. Even after a full turn of shooting (granted you thin them out in your first shooting phase) whats left of the marines is decent enough to clean house in close combat, avoiding intercept plates isn't so hard (you can use LOS, or hug enemy models) and what cant avoid the intercept, can be mitigated against by presenting more pressing threats. Its fun if only for the shock you get to drink when it dont work as planned for the tau player

Playing as the gunline though, i'snt super fun....

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, and I've never had a mono Tau list shoot me off the table as fast as mono Eldar can do it. So which is the abusive army?

Both.

 gmaleron wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Model your fire-warriors so they are in wheelchairs, surely nobody would back out of fighting a cripple?

BRILLIANT! Model your Etheral to be holding a cane and have sunglasses so he is also blind, double protection!

Aun'Va is already in a wheelchair. Maybe use Jokeroo models for his body guards and claim they are helper monkeys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 davou wrote:


I actually have fun playing the resident tau gunlines. I play tau myself (pirhannas and kroot heavy) and knowing the tricks for picking apart a gunline comes pretty quick.

My marines drop in stupid close and eat it for a turn. Even after a full turn of shooting (granted you thin them out in your first shooting phase) whats left of the marines is decent enough to clean house in close combat, avoiding intercept plates isn't so hard (you can use LOS, or hug enemy models) and what cant avoid the intercept, can be mitigated against by presenting more pressing threats. Its fun if only for the shock you get to drink when it dont work as planned for the tau player

Playing as the gunline though, i'snt super fun....

Yeah, I have a SW pod list in my back pocket that will make those blue bottoms covered in brown. Cris-crossing Jaws of the World Wolf is a nightmare for any Tau (or Necron) Gunline.

"Tau are OP and unfair" seems to be flavour of the month at the moment.

I don't know how true it is. There have been so many OP codexes in recent years. Every new codex quickly produced an OP netlist which was popular and hated for a few months.

Rather than blame Tau specially or the 6th edition rules, how about changing game styles?

Reduce the number of points played. 2,000 is too much. 1,500 forces more difficult choices from your codex and increases the need to manoeuvre because you can't easily cover the table with units.

Ban allies and aegis defence lines.

Increase the amount of terrain. Too many people play with too little terrain on the table.

anyone who calls any list I play OP gets an immediate invitation to restart the game with armies swapped

Curbing the 'thats OP, dont bring it to this club' attitude has done immense good for the overall strength of the players at my FLGS.

Martel732 wrote:
I think the thread is long and full of "whining" because most lists *can't* adapt well to the Tau. Even when meqs get to assault them, they take huge casualties from the special overwatch rules.

By the reality of the way 6th edition works, most meqs and their equipment are *still* overcosted, especially Chaos meqs.

Assault elements are especially overcosted, since 75% of them never make it to where they are going. And then, they only to assault some squad that the opponent doesn't care about.

And every compliant people have about the Tau are just 50% more true with Eldar.

I swear that GW writers are allergic to math.

Hey Martel,

From one BA player to another, did you see the new rules for the Fire Raptor? I'm not sure if you use FW or not.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/fire-raptor.pdf

I know all the Tau suits are immune to blind but it can still assisst in the assault of some of your units. Fire the blast, deep strike with Vanguard Vets (without scattering) and then assault. Would make a good combo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mattyrm wrote:
Model your fire-warriors so they are in wheelchairs, surely nobody would back out of fighting a cripple?

Lol, I love it. Also give Crisis suits walking sticks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Model your fire-warriors so they are in wheelchairs, surely nobody would back out of fighting a cripple?

BRILLIANT! Model your Etheral to be holding a cane and have sunglasses so he is also blind, double protection!

Looks like someone else came up with this suggestion before me.

 DarthOvious wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think the thread is long and full of "whining" because most lists *can't* adapt well to the Tau. Even when meqs get to assault them, they take huge casualties from the special overwatch rules.

By the reality of the way 6th edition works, most meqs and their equipment are *still* overcosted, especially Chaos meqs.

Assault elements are especially overcosted, since 75% of them never make it to where they are going. And then, they only to assault some squad that the opponent doesn't care about.

And every compliant people have about the Tau are just 50% more true with Eldar.

I swear that GW writers are allergic to math.

Hey Martel,

From one BA player to another, did you see the new rules for the Fire Raptor? I'm not sure if you use FW or not.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/fire-raptor.pdf

I know all the Tau suits are immune to blind but it can still assisst in the assault of some of your units. Fire the blast, deep strike with Vanguard Vets (without scattering) and then assault. Would make a good combo.

You've got the same problem as the dimensional key though - Flier arrives turn two. Fires missiles. Hope something didn't turn up and is then ready to be deployed on turn 3. If you take a comm link on an aegis, this would have a better chance of working.

50p says Vanguard Vets won't keep being able to assault from reserve either - they've already taken it off everything else... :(

A friend is experimenting with plasma honour guard DoA ing out of a raven. The squad lands and fries something and the raven never has to go into hover mode

And it can arrive, then drop troops before interceptor kicks in - meaning you don't have to worry about them being blown up along with the storm raven.

 davou wrote:
I actually have fun playing the resident tau gunlines. I play tau myself (pirhannas and kroot heavy) and knowing the tricks for picking apart a gunline comes pretty quick.

It certainly can be done. I have lost some games. If you know you're playing against Tau to begin with then its easier. You just need a fast list which gets right in your opponents face from the start. Things like Bikes, Drop Pods, Transports, etc. Include some long range fire support TFC, Devs with Plasma Cannons, etc and you're good to go.

My marines drop in stupid close and eat it for a turn. Even after a full turn of shooting (granted you thin them out in your first shooting phase) whats left of the marines is decent enough to clean house in close combat, avoiding intercept plates isn't so hard (you can use LOS, or hug enemy models) and what cant avoid the intercept, can be mitigated against by presenting more pressing threats. Its fun if only for the shock you get to drink when it dont work as planned for the tau player

In my list the interceptor usually goes on my Broadsides. Its still possible to avoid them though. SMS is 30" but so is one of the ammo types for sternguard vets. One of my opponents brought his sternguard down in a drop pod, so he was over 30" range from my SMS, out of sight for the HYMP but still in range of some of my other units for his 30" special ammo shots.

Playing as the gunline though, i'snt super fun....

I'm fine with it, but the players I play with are good for a bit of banter during the game so thats why it doesn't get boring for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
You've got the same problem as the dimensional key though - Flier arrives turn two. Fires missiles. Hope something didn't turn up and is then ready to be deployed on turn 3. If you take a comm link on an aegis, this would have a better chance of working.

Thats true. You really need to hope you can fire the flier first before deep striking the vanguard

50p says Vanguard Vets won't keep being able to assault from reserve either - they've already taken it off everything else... :(

Sorry can you clarrify? From what I know at this point in time it is my understanding that the Vanguard Vets from the Blood Angels codex can still assault after a deep strike. Although I do fully expect this to change in the next codex.

A friend is experimenting with plasma honour guard DoA ing out of a raven. The squad lands and fries something and the raven never has to go into hover mode

Yes, the Skies of Blood Special rule is very rarely used but can be effective sometimes.

For better or for worse no one in play group allows FW.Saves us all a lot of $$, at least

 DarthOvious wrote:

Sorry can you clarrify? Although I do fully expect this to change in the next codex.

I don't need to clarify - you got my point

The only question is whether they get rid of it in the digital codex or it survives to the next paper codex.

 PredaKhaine wrote:

I don't need to clarify - you got my point

The only question is whether they get rid of it in the digital codex or it survives to the next paper codex.

Ah, fair enough. If it gets changed in the digital codex then they will need to decrease the points for the Vanguard to being more inline with the SM codex. I don't think this will happen. A lot of the BA players on another forum were hopeful for changes but then somebody pointed out that it looks like the only things they are going to add are the errata and a picture gallery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
For better or for worse no one in play group allows FW.Saves us all a lot of $$, at least

I have some forge world stuff which I use from time to time but I don't solely rely on it.

 gmaleron wrote:
Really I think the biggest shinanigan that comes with Tau is as Rommel44 mentioned, is how they can take advantage of the new rules 6th edition has come out with. The book in itself is fine IMO however it does have a tendancy to really take advantage of the rules, primarily those in regards to shooting, cover ect. better then any other. Now will I refuse to play a list that has x3 Riptides? No, only if the Tau player gives me a reason not such as poor, cocky attitude ect.

For example I played a game last week was my Elysians with the FW (Imperial Armor 3 Second Edition) rules against a x4 Riptide gunline army that had just beaten down my buddies Eldar and the guy would not stop bragging about it (aka cocky prick). Needless to say after my x2 Twin Linked Punisher Cannon Vulture Gunships took down a Riptide apiece and my Vendettas with Valkyrie Multilaser support took down a third all on the turn they arrived on, my Tau opponent flipped out calling my army "cheese", I could not help but laugh when he said that with a straight face starting at me with x4 Riptides on the table...well there was only x1 at that point .

However that is not every Tau opponent and I realize this, also I love the Riptide model and the challenge that Tau bring to the table. The store I play at is super competitive anyways so I have gotten alot of good practice against the Blueberries and their suits. That, and if they are willing to fight my Elysian Air Cav army then I will be willing to take on any list they throw at me. Bottom line take what you want to play with, just keep in mind that if your opponent has a list that will struggle and you want to play casual, ease up your list and take things you usually wouldnt.

Exactly my point. The Tau book, while strong, in itself isn't OP, its just the rules for 6th give the Tau the biggest advantage compared to most of the other armies due to the fact that there biggest strength is the shooting phase, and with a edition built towards shooting, it makes them standout. Although the only thing I really hate is the marketlight spam and the ability to use it for overwatch and skyfire, personally I think that makes them a bit too strong in the shooting phase bbut besides that I think they are a beatable army. Its just not fun to fight the same boring Tau list with masses of pathfinders and Riptides, gets old really quick as many power gamers have gone Tau just for that reason.

the terrain comment is a big one. I never see people play with more than 1 or 2 real line of sight blocks in the middle of the board. You honestly expect a 30" gap of no line of sight blocking against a very nasty shooty army to not bode badly for you?

Special kind of stupid, that is.

Theres a couple of guys at my FLGS that always play with a LOT of terrain. Personally i think they go a little too high as i wouldnt even be able to play my orks at all in that battlefield since they'd be forced to congaline everything, but they have the right idea - both tau and eldar are taken down a notch in that battlefield because their guns are on average getting 20-28" shots off at best, rather than max range from turn 1.

Boniface wrote:
So how about we get some guidelines about what isn't fair (this is a genuine attempt at leveling playing field out a bit)

As long as the points are roughly the same and everybody follows the rules, I'm not sure how you can make it any fairer. Now if you want less one-sided...that is a little different.

The concept Tau army I'm working on is an expeditionary force cut off from supply lines with limited resources; mostly infantry, with very limited access to larger Battlesuits and tanks (no more Stealthsuits than Fire Warriors and Pathfinders, no more than one Crisis team per two Stealthsuit or Infantry units, no more than one Riptide or heavy vehicle (Hammerhead, Sky Ray, Flyer) per two Crisis teams, and an HQ choice counts as a Crisis team if it's got a Battlesuit and an infantry unit otherwise. The army itself is still in the planning phase (I have several unassembled boxes of units and a fully-painted Stealth team), but I suspect it's a much more casual force than the typical build.