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 Vineheart01 wrote:
the terrain comment is a big one. I never see people play with more than 1 or 2 real line of sight blocks in the middle of the board. You honestly expect a 30" gap of no line of sight blocking against a very nasty shooty army to not bode badly for you?

Special kind of stupid, that is.

Theres a couple of guys at my FLGS that always play with a LOT of terrain. Personally i think they go a little too high as i wouldnt even be able to play my orks at all in that battlefield since they'd be forced to congaline everything, but they have the right idea - both tau and eldar are taken down a notch in that battlefield because their guns are on average getting 20-28" shots off at best, rather than max range from turn 1.

Played few games on tables with 3-4 LoS blocking terrains. awesome games . first turn demons fly , everything that is not in deep strike is out of LoS or in reserv.. Turn two drake comes flames my units , hides behind tower. His kairos , screamers and a DP hide behind another tower horrors deep strike and run to hide out of LoS. . My vendettas are the only thing that can draw LoS to anything . I do some pot shots at kairos hoping for a grounding test fail , but it doesn't happen. Third turn everything that can flys near my army opens fire , screamers multi charge destroys my tanks . Kairos and the DP kill 2 of my chimers both horror units move out of hiding and unload with 6d6 vs my vendettas butts . the helldrake swoops the other valkyria and takes another go flaming what is left of my blob. On my third turn my valk comes in , he kills off in melee my vet units and am left with 2 dudes from a HQ section and a valk with some vets inside . What awesome games those 4 LoS blocking gave me , so much stuff to do for 2 turns and then all the action on turn 3&4.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
These threads still kill me. In 5th I never had a shortage of players that would field a ton of missile launchers and lascannons to one shot my expensive suits and broadsides and every game was an uphill battle. When I mentioned how hard it was I got the response "That's just how it goes with an out of date codex"

So my answer to what's 'fair' use is anything you find in the codex and within the FOC limitations. I never saw people change their list to cater to my underpowered codex before so I don't think it warrants me returning the favor.

Best response in the thread.

Nearly every codex has had its "hayday" at some point, and very, VERY few of the players of those codices at those times showed any mercy or consideration to other players.

The only correct answer to your question, is to simply play with any units you want. If you like a model or you like a model's rules, take it. At the very MAXIMUM, the only consideration you should show is to not suck all the life out of your list by simply spamming three or four units. But even then, if that's what what you want to do, everyone else can suck it.

Makumba wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
the terrain comment is a big one. I never see people play with more than 1 or 2 real line of sight blocks in the middle of the board. You honestly expect a 30" gap of no line of sight blocking against a very nasty shooty army to not bode badly for you?

Special kind of stupid, that is.

Theres a couple of guys at my FLGS that always play with a LOT of terrain. Personally i think they go a little too high as i wouldnt even be able to play my orks at all in that battlefield since they'd be forced to congaline everything, but they have the right idea - both tau and eldar are taken down a notch in that battlefield because their guns are on average getting 20-28" shots off at best, rather than max range from turn 1.

Played few games on tables with 3-4 LoS blocking terrains. awesome games . first turn demons fly , everything that is not in deep strike is out of LoS or in reserv.. Turn two drake comes flames my units , hides behind tower. His kairos , screamers and a DP hide behind another tower horrors deep strike and run to hide out of LoS. . My vendettas are the only thing that can draw LoS to anything . I do some pot shots at kairos hoping for a grounding test fail , but it doesn't happen. Third turn everything that can flys near my army opens fire , screamers multi charge destroys my tanks . Kairos and the DP kill 2 of my chimers both horror units move out of hiding and unload with 6d6 vs my vendettas butts . the helldrake swoops the other valkyria and takes another go flaming what is left of my blob. On my third turn my valk comes in , he kills off in melee my vet units and am left with 2 dudes from a HQ section and a valk with some vets inside . What awesome games those 4 LoS blocking gave me , so much stuff to do for 2 turns and then all the action on turn 3&4.

I find it interesting that you are one of the proponents of the, "suck it up and deal with it" position when it comes to Tau or other "OP" armies. But when the tables are turned you are going to complain to high heaven without the smallest sense of irony?

On topic, I think that changing your list to fit the people you are playing is respectful and the right thing to do. I am not going to field a double Flyrant and Tervigon spam list against the twelve year old kid who just started playing C:SM. I will take a list with a bunch of Hormagaunts, Genestealers, and Raveners running up the field at him giving him at least two or three turns to shoot the crap out of me so that he can still have fun.

Tau are top dogs right now, Taudar and Eldau being tournament winners. They aren't unbeatable, the codex isn't OP but is probably the most solid codex GW has ever released with EVERY unit being viable, and 6th is the most shooty edition that has been largely based on shooty for three editions makes them extremely powerful. For people who like to play around with their friends once a week while throwing dice and laughing wont like them. I collected Tau when they first came out, had them sitting around for the longest time until they got their 6th codex and pulled them back out. You know what happened? I sold them. I had so little fun playing them that I got rid of them, I know the codex very well, I know their supposed weaknesses. I will say that people who pump up their weaknesses are being ridiculous. Melee? Yeah, right, assaulting in 6th. Killing markerlight support, so what? Then they are just like guard which is still 50% hit rate. That's not BAD.

Makumba wrote:
Played few games on tables with 3-4 LoS blocking terrains. awesome games . first turn demons fly , everything that is not in deep strike is out of LoS or in reserv.. Turn two drake comes flames my units , hides behind tower. His kairos , screamers and a DP hide behind another tower horrors deep strike and run to hide out of LoS. . My vendettas are the only thing that can draw LoS to anything . I do some pot shots at kairos hoping for a grounding test fail , but it doesn't happen. Third turn everything that can flys near my army opens fire , screamers multi charge destroys my tanks . Kairos and the DP kill 2 of my chimers both horror units move out of hiding and unload with 6d6 vs my vendettas butts . the helldrake swoops the other valkyria and takes another go flaming what is left of my blob. On my third turn my valk comes in , he kills off in melee my vet units and am left with 2 dudes from a HQ section and a valk with some vets inside . What awesome games those 4 LoS blocking gave me , so much stuff to do for 2 turns and then all the action on turn 3&4.

Exactly the person I thought of when it comes to more terrain on the table. You complain when there is too much terrain on the table because the daemons might spank you again. You then complain that the tau continually out shoot you on completley open tables. Can't have it both ways. Judging from your comments it sounds like you've played on open tables a lot and are used to dominating the gunline mode and crushing your opponents and now are unhappy because the tau are now doing it to you instead. Here is a little hint, though, if you are playing against tau and know you are playing against tau you can stack the table with LOS blocking terrain and it will limit the tau as much as they limit you on being able to dominate in cross table shooting action. There are no fears of screamerstar when you ALREADY KNOW YOU ARE PLAYING AGAINST TAU. By all means, though, please continue to demand the table stay wide open and then complain that your army gets owned by the tau because of it.

A further point here, a single game against daemons where it sounds like the dice were most definitely going in the daemon player's favor is hardly enough to gauge how the game works with more terrain on the table. My group plays with terrain stacked tables exclusively. Not every game goes like the spanking you took above. Nor do even most of the games come out that way. Such a one sided occurance happens rarely for either side, except when they can't seem to roll wrong for anything. Most of the games are very close as neither side has a total advantage in such a table and that was even BEFORE the return of overwatch fire or variable charge distances either. The majority of the games are not decided until close to the very end and they are always interesting for everyone. It doesn't take most players long to realize that a mostly open table solely favors the army with the most long range fire power. The people who complain loudest about LoS blocking terrain are those who, unsuprisingly, play armies full of long range fire power. It is also funny to hear those same people complain about another army out long range fire powering them on the table too.

Skriker

I do agree that using appropriate terrain could alleviate much of the groans over tau.

If your only terrain is some low walls, trees, and buildings with massive holes/windows..... then yeah tau will destroy you.

Try using walls that are 2-3" tall or place a building in the middle with no windows or damage to shoot through. My tau can't remove your cover if you are standing behind a reinforced wall. My broadsides may target you with smart missiles if you are out of LoS, but that also means their main armament won't be shooting that turn.

I started my Tau in '01. If someone wants to complain about my pathfinders, i hand them one, the weight of metal models usually shuts them up.
I also started eldar in '96. I'm now sitting at 5500pts, the only things that are plastic in the army are the jetbikes. vypers, 2 falcons, and 60 of 120 guardians.
Once people see the age and style of my armies most complaints go away. For me it's about knowing my armies. Do I use new units, yes. And I work l them to fit into my playstyles.

Of course always being able to drop a metal krootox on someone's foot keeps a smile on my face.

Surely a long-term Tau player is in a better position to intentionally weaken their list for a fair game than newer players, as they would have a larger selection of models to field and the know-how to play a weaker list.

 dpal666 wrote:
I started my Tau in '01. If someone wants to complain about my pathfinders, i hand them one, the weight of metal models usually shuts them up.
I also started eldar in '96. I'm now sitting at 5500pts, the only things that are plastic in the army are the jetbikes. vypers, 2 falcons, and 60 of 120 guardians.
Once people see the age and style of my armies most complaints go away. For me it's about knowing my armies. Do I use new units, yes. And I work l them to fit into my playstyles.

Of course always being able to drop a metal krootox on someone's foot keeps a smile on my face.

But the new Pathfinders are so pretty! And the kit and accessories are so awesome... truly, by clinging to solely the metals, you are doing yourself a true disservice.

I hate this type of discussion. I don't like people who refuse to play certain armies. I play against any army, any time, any where. I play Tyranids and have lost way more games then I have won since 6th Ed. When Tau came out I thought all was lost and I almost walked away from the game. But I adapted my army and changed tactics. These are the rules and codecs designed by GW whether good or bad and we all have to learn to adapt.

That being said the Tau community has to admit that they have cultivated this hate on themselves. You know what I am talking about. Cheese ball forge world guns on 3 riptides and crappy experimental rule sets for them in a "friendly" game. I think we have all seen that at some point.

To overcome your problem though I would bring a few different lists depending on the audience. Bring your best tournament ready list and then bring some lists with things you want to try. Always bring a competitive list. Maybe try a mission that not in the standard book to change things up. And if someone says they don't want to play your Tau, just remember that when they get their cheese ball codex and now all of a sudden are chomping at the bit to play you.

I say juice up your list to your hearts content.
I personally don't think it's appropriate to expect people to dumb down their list just to make their opponent happy.
I don't recall anybody shouting down GK players into fielding "more competitive" builds. Where are the Blood Angels players asking about how they can avoid tabling their opponent?
I would be insulted if my opponent brought anything less than his best list. It makes winning all the sweeter, and it makes losing feel understandable and justified.

But I began playing in a rather dog-eat-dog group. If there are units that you just can't get past, then YOU have got the problem, not your opponent. If the army list is legal, end of story.
If I'm playing DE against Tau, the thrill and challenge and fun of the game for me would be figuring out how to deny my opponent his strengths.

In short, you shouldn't give a crap what your opponent thinks about your list. Their complaining is a testament to their own unpreparedness and inability to adapt to battlefield conditions.