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It comes down to each player and their local meta to decide on how much of "X" they should include in their army.

Personally I would rather bring a list that most players would enjoy playing against - even if this results in a loss once in a while.

I follow the following "rules" when building my farsight 1750-1850 lists:

- max 1 riptide
- no farsight bomb (too gimmicky, deploying with a regular team is more efficient and = scoring)
- include a sniper drone team
- use as many crisis suits as possible

After working around those self imposed restrictions, I generally have enough points for a broadside team, 2nd commander, and maybe a firewarrior team. I haven't had any issues winning or finding opponents. When they first hear you play tau, there is a bit of an eyeroll, but then you pull out all the suits and most people become much more enthusiastic.

I mean look at it. Tau have pathfinders, but Eldar models can twin link their OWN weapons. So there is no lynchpin to hit with flamers or whatever. Plus the Eldar have some solid counter assault built in with Wraithknights and Dire Avengers. And yes, after Dire Avengers catapult you and over watch you, their HTH capabilites are nontrivial.

The Eldar at 50% strength are very close to 50% firepower of Eldar at 100% strength. Tau at 50% strength have considerably less than 50% firepower of 100% strength Tau.

My gaming group has been struggling with this since the release of tau. We are a small group of 5 friends all playing different armies. There is a severe problem with balance within our group we have Tau of course, dark eldar, nids, space marines, and orks. There are some sever balance problems just because of the armies we play with Tau being the strongest and orks being the weakest. still we try to keep every game interesting and here is how....
We look at each others list. Is there an obvious power issue between both armies? Is there a riptied, for example, against an ork list who has 0% chance of destroying it?
Here are two very low, I think 450 point. lists that had an incredible battle despite the fact that tau are way stronger than orks, codex wise. We played the relic, both agreeing that it would be the most fair game to play with the lists we had.

Orks
HQ ork boss big choppa attack squig e'vey armour
troops
orks x10 big shoota
in a trukk with da boss
grots x19 runterd
fast
buggie
burna bomba with two missiles

Tau
HQ
Cadre fireblad
Troops
12 firewarriors markerlights
12 kroot kroot hound (outflanking
fast
bomber

I am not 100% on his list but whatever all of the units match up and the winner of the game is the guy who has the best rolls or tactically defeats his foe. I realize that most people play pickup games however even bringing a 1500 point list players can tailor their lists for a fair fight with any army if the make 500 point lists from it in order to fight one another.

 gossipmeng wrote:
It comes down to each player and their local meta to decide on how much of "X" they should include in their army.

Personally I would rather bring a list that most players would enjoy playing against - even if this results in a loss once in a while.

I follow the following "rules" when building my farsight 1750-1850 lists:

- max 1 riptide
- no farsight bomb (too gimmicky, deploying with a regular team is more efficient and = scoring)
- include a sniper drone team
- use as many crisis suits as possible

After working around those self imposed restrictions, I generally have enough points for a broadside team, 2nd commander, and maybe a firewarrior team. I haven't had any issues winning or finding opponents. When they first hear you play tau, there is a bit of an eyeroll, but then you pull out all the suits and most people become much more enthusiastic.

This is exactly what I am planing with my farsight enclave hahaha one riptide a few squads of fire warriors/ pathfinders And a few battle suits and a hammerhead/ broadsides. Should be fair i think haha

If I were an ork player against a tau gunline, I'd go for battlewagons holding burnaboys (for the firewarriors) or nobs (for the riptides). Have trucks filled with boys following the battlewagons so that they are out of LoS.

Most tau gunlines lack an effective way to deal with av14:

- elite slots will be filled with riptides (no fusion blaster suits)
- most broadsides use missiles rather than railguns
- riptides have to ensure they don't scatter or get hot.

You can actually use the battlewagons to move between tau units to prevent supporting fire LoS

I wouldn't play a watered down version of my army to play others. If I use a hyper competitive list, I always tell my opponent so.

Also, Tau were at the bottom of the bucket for 7 years, and nearly two editions. Give them a break for being powerful for a little while.

Lucarikx

 Savageconvoy wrote:
These threads still kill me. In 5th I never had a shortage of players that would field a ton of missile launchers and lascannons to one shot my expensive suits and broadsides and every game was an uphill battle. When I mentioned how hard it was I got the response "That's just how it goes with an out of date codex"

So my answer to what's 'fair' use is anything you find in the codex and within the FOC limitations. I never saw people change their list to cater to my underpowered codex before so I don't think it warrants me returning the favor.

pretty much this.

But seriously, you're dealing with 40k players. 40k players love to moan, whine, and complain. to the extent that a group of 40k players is often jokingly referred to as "a whine of 40k players". And the sad fact of the matter is, to some, you are to blame. Just because you play tau. No, there is no playing "fair" according to them. Whatever you do, you and your army are utterly beyond redemption and are entirely responsible for ruining the game, tearing down the rainforests, polluting the air, and releasing Justin Bieber onto the airwaves. Whatever you do will simply be "not good enough"; there will be no playing "fair", regardless of what you bring, what handicaps you take, what hoops you jump through, or whatever else.

And then there are the others who will say "yeah, cool. bring it on. i like facing off against hard lists."

The best answer to the question though is this: " effective communication". the great failing of 40k is it tries to be all things to all people, it compromises itself, and ultimately, it fails to deliver. Whats fair? Well, if its in the codex, its legal in-game. Fluff is open-ended. as to who wants what - well, talk to them. if they have no hang-ups, or terms and conditions to what they're willing to go against then, you've got a blank slate. go for it. if its the folks that have terms and conditions - well then honestly have that conversation with yourself; are you willing to compromise? or are those terms and conditions they insist on for a game too much for you? depending on the answer, then either (a) play them, or (b) dont play them.

talk to them, and then take the next step. its that simple.

I find it best to figure out the type of army I want to play and model it off of that. If you do it that way it is pretty obvious what is OP, although it doesn't always work (15 piranhas is kind of mean).

In general ts the riptides that cause all the grief. with the exception of the what 2 guns that cause instant death you wont shoot them dead without wasting a ton of shots. And their range + speed makes them hard to catch in the melee untill turn 3-4 or even later.

The whole easily removed cover is another but that at least can be dealt with easier. Its easier to play "you cant see me at all" or "im too tough anyway" than it is to outgun a riptide lol.


In my experience though its more people refusing to change their lists than anything else. Got a guy that runs virtually the same space marine list against my tau as my orks...despite being drastically different tactics lol. Flamers dont hurt crisis suits or riptides for squat, and only heavy flamers hurt firewarriors (that arent clumped up like idiots anyway). Hes had that flamer unit he drops in every turn be so powerful for him he refuses to get rid of it, even though it never even gets close to getting its points back against my tau lol.

Well since I am the one who brought up the topic on how Tau players I have noticed are having issues getting games, I will throw in my 2 cents lol. Overall, do I think the Tau are op? No I don't but I do believe they are an unbalanced book that got a huge boost with this new edition. Ever since GW made 40k more of shooting game and nerfed the assault phase, many people have stopped playing 40k all together, as it became a dice game to see who can get the most shots off which makes the game boring. Also, another issue I see is that Tau became THE power gamers army, as it is easy for anyone to make a super competitive list with the army and many have rotten attitudes. Overall, once 40k became a shooting game, Tau became top tier right off the bat due to the ability to spam nasty lists without much effort and its no fun to pay against at all.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
In general ts the riptides that cause all the grief. with the exception of the what 2 guns that cause instant death you wont shoot them dead without wasting a ton of shots. And their range + speed makes them hard to catch in the melee untill turn 3-4 or even later.

The whole easily removed cover is another but that at least can be dealt with easier. Its easier to play "you cant see me at all" or "im too tough anyway" than it is to outgun a riptide lol.


In my experience though its more people refusing to change their lists than anything else. Got a guy that runs virtually the same space marine list against my tau as my orks...despite being drastically different tactics lol. Flamers dont hurt crisis suits or riptides for squat, and only heavy flamers hurt firewarriors (that arent clumped up like idiots anyway). Hes had that flamer unit he drops in every turn be so powerful for him he refuses to get rid of it, even though it never even gets close to getting its points back against my tau lol.

That's because changing his list to suit his opponent would count as one of the Internet's Great Sins, "list tailoring".

The best answer to the question though is this: " effective communication". the great failing of 40k is it tries to be all things to all people, it compromises itself, and ultimately, it fails to deliver. Whats fair? Well, if its in the codex, its legal in-game. Fluff is open-ended. as to who wants what - well, talk to them. if they have no hang-ups, or terms and conditions to what they're willing to go against then, you've got a blank slate. go for it. if its the folks that have terms and conditions - well then honestly have that conversation with yourself; are you willing to compromise? or are those terms and conditions they insist on for a game too much for you?

Oh I seen those "talks" in 5th ed. A dude buys IG or GK army , plays people with normal lists and then runs in to one of those rare "talk" guys . And suddenly you notice that the "talk" is there because the "talk" guy bought his army 2 editions ago , for cheaper then you , and he still gets the nerv to force you to buy in fill your list with bad stuff , just because he doesn't want to update or buy a new army that works. Talking and asking what other people would like to see in your army is stupid, because they will always want to see stuff which is easy for them to beat , with minimal additional cash cost . Preferably 0 , if someone can play without paying for a table.

Tau gunline, is boring to face. And incredibly boring to play. There's never enough LOS blocking terrain, and players that play it should be banished.

yeah we should all play with ton of LoS terrain , so that chaos demon players could get in to melee range unopposed and win every game .Same with meq players who using drop pods could ignore the LoS blockers and with fewer turns of shoting hiting them could roll over any non meq army.

No, we should play on planet bowling ball, where Tau and Eldar can just blast everything off the table and win every game.

Or, you know, we could play with a decent mixture of terrain that add tactical depth to the game, like reasonable people.

Makumba wrote:
yeah we should all play with ton of LoS terrain , so that chaos demon players could get in to melee range unopposed and win every game .Same with meq players who using drop pods could ignore the LoS blockers and with fewer turns of shoting hiting them could roll over any non meq army.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Gunline Tau IS boring for everyone involved. It needs no tactics at all to be effective. I should know, i sold all my Tau a few weeks after the new codex. Due to it being so boring to play.

Makumba wrote:

Oh I seen those "talks" in 5th ed. A dude buys IG or GK army , plays people with normal lists and then runs in to one of those rare "talk" guys . And suddenly you notice that the "talk" is there because the "talk" guy bought his army 2 editions ago , for cheaper then you , and he still gets the nerv to force you to buy in fill your list with bad stuff , just because he doesn't want to update or buy a new army that works. Talking and asking what other people would like to see in your army is stupid, because they will always want to see stuff which is easy for them to beat , with minimal additional cash cost . Preferably 0 , if someone can play without paying for a table.

I’ll agree with you Makumba – that attitude you mention, of opponents deciding what they want to see in your army (ie easy to beat) is reprehensible. Unfortunately, its par for the course for some of the people that play 40k. However, it wasn’t really what I was trying to get at.
I guess I’m just too used to playing warmachine and infinity these days where a more assertive, and aggressive in-game playstyle is the norm ie a lot less of the negative “that’s unfair”, and a lot more “bring it on”. 40k though, unfortunately is a host to a huge amount of negativity, to the extent that sometimes I feel someone having a desire to win is a pariah, and that sportsmanship means apologising for beating your opponent for beating them, and where a 2-player game implies having no one at the other controller. Too many people simply want immunity: opponent.
Regarding what I was saying about communication – I will stand by what I said. Communication is the key. But it’s not about letting your opponent decide your army for you. That’s just stupid. No, what I mean by communication is being on the same page as your opponent. It’s about realising that 40k is a lot of things to a lot of different people. And some are simply incompatible. It’s about realising what it is you want to get out of your games of 40k, and finding like-minded folks to play against. If the person at the other end of the table doesn’t want what you want out of 40k (cut throat killer lists, “fluff” lists (and I despise that term) or whatever), then ask yourself if it’s a game you want to play. Is it an opponent you want to play? There is nothing wrong with being in any particular camp, the issue is insisting on everyone else needing to be in the same camp, and everyone else being “wrong”. Finding like-minded opponents is the key.

Don't take pathfinders, one of the best tau units from my experience.

Having played Tau in 5th against a lot of Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Necrons, I have to admit a little enjoyment at the angst the Tau now cause.

What I learned in those dark times is the best lists from the best codexes can be overcome through sound tactics and preparation.

Modern Tau are uniquely suited to breaking the local and world wide Meta because, while having a glaring disadvantage, they have the ability to neutralize the advantages of pretty much any other competitive army. Some relish the challenge this presents, others find the negation of their "I Win" buttons to be overwhelming.

This is a part of the cycle of the game and the current super competitive Tau lists will pull the Meta towards dealing with them. Once that happens, Tau will need to adapt (and change up their play style) or see themselves slip from the top tier as armies load up on Poison, Fleshbane, Rending and low AP to eliminate Riptides (which hurts bad in the points department) and cover denying AP 4/5 blasts and templates to root our troops and pathfinders out from their hiding places (because bunching up for Supporting Fire fun is just waiting for an artillery barrage to ruin your day).

 AtoMaki wrote:

Boniface wrote:

So how about we get some guidelines about what isn't fair (this is a genuine attempt at leveling playing field out a bit)

Here are the restrictions I've found worthwhile:
- No C&C Node or MSSS
- No Farsight and Shadowsun in the same army
- No Ethereal
- 0-1 Riptide
- 0-2 Pathfinder Teams
- No Missile Drones for Broadsides
- 0-1 Sky Ray

Just a small warning: even with these restrictions, your Tau army will be still pretty tough to beat. Warn your opponents to leave their "fun" and "fluffy" armies at home to avoid awkward situations.

Only Broadsides can take missile drones, so you may as well just say no missile drones period.

 DanFST wrote:

Makumba wrote:
yeah we should all play with ton of LoS terrain , so that chaos demon players could get in to melee range unopposed and win every game .Same with meq players who using drop pods could ignore the LoS blockers and with fewer turns of shoting hiting them could roll over any non meq army.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Gunline Tau IS boring for everyone involved. It needs no tactics at all to be effective. I should know, i sold all my Tau a few weeks after the new codex. Due to it being so boring to play.

My army is IG , everything I tau do better. They have better gunlines , better mobility , can battle brother eldar , where I have to battle brother marines . Riptide >2 vendetta . If a table is made to "counter" tau or eldar , because the game is "boring" , aka marines and demons can lose, then my IG get spanked even harder . I would rather lose to tau and eldar who are superior and have a good chance other armies , then still lose to tau and eldar and lose to demons and marines too , just so that marine players find the game more "exciting" aka a free win against me .

 Savageconvoy wrote:
These threads still kill me. In 5th I never had a shortage of players that would field a ton of missile launchers and lascannons to one shot my expensive suits and broadsides and every game was an uphill battle. When I mentioned how hard it was I got the response "That's just how it goes with an out of date codex"

So my answer to what's 'fair' use is anything you find in the codex and within the FOC limitations. I never saw people change their list to cater to my underpowered codex before so I don't think it warrants me returning the favor.

Its swings and roundabouts really isn't it. It won't be long until the next flavour of the month comes along and is suddenly the army to beat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll worry about getting Tau players to limit Riptides right after getting limits on helldrakes or Wave Serpents. There's more at work here than just Riptides. It's the fact that assault has been repeatedly nerfed and rapid fire was made much better in 6th. Usually against Tau, the fire warriors kill more BA than the Riptides do through sheer dice.

Oh, and I've never had a mono Tau list shoot me off the table as fast as mono Eldar can do it. So which is the abusive army?

I think this about sums it up. Shooting is how the game works now. I have Blood Angels, Grey Knights (started in 6th after they were toned down) and Tau and I've just started Elder.

Funnily enough I started Eldar to try and tone it down in the games I've played but I'm now worried about Martel's comment as he seems to be saying that Eldar are in fact worse. This is despite the fact that there are three Eldar players down at my store and I didn't judge them to be worse but that could be because of their particular lists/playstyles.

I find it sad that people won't play games against certain armies... In my area people are pretty tournement geared so the more competitive the better. I would play what you want to play.
I do not understand the hate either, people still played against Gray Knights at the end of 5th in my local area - I still played my Eldar and Orks in hard fought battles. When 6th came out, Crons ruled the air and fields and no one bitched or stopped playing them.
Now people still play my Tau and Eldar, however I have taken a lot of "crap" of how easy it is to win with Eldar and Tau...
Though funny enough I was at two day tourney this weekend and a Cron player won, I played all Eldar and got 6th, there were 3 other Eldar or Eldar/Tau combos and none of them placed 1-3.
So I am not sure why all the hate as I think 6th as the new codexes have come out, have made the armies more balanced and not as broken as 5th was where every time a new codex came out, it was THE BEST codex. The only potential exceptions to this are Chaos Space Marines and Sisters, who I still think are a little weaker than many of the other dexes. But this is just my opinion.

If there is one thing to take away from my ranting is, play what makes you happy...
I don't always play what people call the meta, because I may like a certain unit or model and just want to play it.. Cheers

"Overall, do I think the Tau are op? No I don't but I do believe they are an unbalanced book that got a huge boost with this new edition""

So, what qualifies as OP? Or it's cousin, undercosted?

 gossipmeng wrote:
If I were an ork player against a tau gunline, I'd go for battlewagons holding burnaboys (for the firewarriors) or nobs (for the riptides). Have trucks filled with boys following the battlewagons so that they are out of LoS.

Most tau gunlines lack an effective way to deal with av14:

- elite slots will be filled with riptides (no fusion blaster suits)
- most broadsides use missiles rather than railguns
- riptides have to ensure they don't scatter or get hot.

You can actually use the battlewagons to move between tau units to prevent supporting fire LoS

AV14 can be a weakness in a Tau army so I agree here.

Generally I bring a hammerhead with long strike and a suicide crisis team with fusions to deal with AV14. However if other Tau players insist on bringing the triple riptide list then those S9 ion accelerator shots are not always a reliable method to take AV14 out. They have to nove charge, pass gets hot roll, hit target with the template and then penetrate and finally roll a 5 to explode a landraider. Not as easy as it sounds, even with ordance for 2D6 pick the highest.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
No, we should play on planet bowling ball, where Tau and Eldar can just blast everything off the table and win every game.

Or, you know, we could play with a decent mixture of terrain that add tactical depth to the game, like reasonable people.

It has been shown fairly convincingly on other threads that terrain doesn't really hamper at least the Eldar very much. In fact, in some circumstances, it helps them. No amount of "tactica. depth" can change the fact tha the Wave Serpent hits like a marine battle tank and is quasi immortal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthOvious wrote:

 gossipmeng wrote:
If I were an ork player against a tau gunline, I'd go for battlewagons holding burnaboys (for the firewarriors) or nobs (for the riptides). Have trucks filled with boys following the battlewagons so that they are out of LoS.

Most tau gunlines lack an effective way to deal with av14:

- elite slots will be filled with riptides (no fusion blaster suits)
- most broadsides use missiles rather than railguns
- riptides have to ensure they don't scatter or get hot.

You can actually use the battlewagons to move between tau units to prevent supporting fire LoS

AV14 can be a weakness in a Tau army so I agree here.

Generally I bring a hammerhead with long strike and a suicide crisis team with fusions to deal with AV14. However if other Tau players insist on bringing the triple riptide list then those S9 ion accelerator shots are not always a reliable method to take AV14 out. They have to nove charge, pass gets hot roll, hit target with the template and then penetrate and finally roll a 5 to explode a landraider. Not as easy as it sounds, even with ordance for 2D6 pick the highest.

AV 14 units can't score and have marginal firepower. So is this actually important?

Boniface wrote:
Ok, so I play Tau, I admit that i find it heavily frustrating to hear so much negativity toward them but we'll not go into that now.
There has been a thread recently about how unfair Tau is and therefore not getting games so i wanted to ask for guidelines into what is considered 'fair' and what is considered 'too much'.
(I would like to state that i don't think this in its own right is right or fair but that is life).
The reason being I actually want to play the game and don't want to be a Tau guy that never gets games.

So how about we get some guidelines about what isn't fair (this is a genuine attempt at leveling playing field out a bit)

Just play what you want to play. There is always someone out there who will, not matter how pared down your army is, complain that it is overpowered. People are never happy when they have to step outside of their years old comfort bubbles to learn how to deal with an army again. People liked when Tau were overpriced and incapable of being a threat. Now Tau play like the army they have long been claimed to be and people hate it. They don't want to come up with new methods to deal with it. It is easier to complain about it and try to force Tau players to leave their good units at home just so the other guys can have an easy time of it. That is BS. Build your army. While someone is ranting about how over powered your list is, someone else will happily have a game with you.

I am laughing at reading the various lists of "stick to these guidelines" and people will be Ok with your army that pretty much amount to, don't include much of any of the good aspects of your army in your force or people will complain. Why bother playing the army if you can't use the decent units because of other players. You talk about a thread, but what about locally to you? Are you haveing problems getting games? Is the local community shunning you at events because you have Tau? If not then who cares what people say on Dakka. Dakka has a high whine factor for just about everything. Tau are too powerful, CSM is crap, DA flyers are useless...and the list goes on. If folks here aren't complaining about something they aren' t happy. Take their complaints with a grain of salt because a percentage of them have run their own netlists too so have no room to complain about others playing "unfair" armies.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DanFST wrote:
Tau gunline, is boring to face. And incredibly boring to play. There's never enough LOS blocking terrain, and players that play it should be banished.

Simple solution: More LoS blocking terrain. We fill ourtables with terrain so no force with long reach can completely dominate the game from turn one. Maneuver and use of fire lanes and cover is a big part of our games. We don't want to play long range shooting battles where only the side with the most guns that shoot the farthest can win. Stupid to banish an army when you can just add more terrain and cut down on the excess of ANY gunline and not just a Tau gunline and also give more cover to melee units so they actually have a better chance of getting into melee.

Skriker

Makumba wrote:

 DanFST wrote:

Makumba wrote:
yeah we should all play with ton of LoS terrain , so that chaos demon players could get in to melee range unopposed and win every game .Same with meq players who using drop pods could ignore the LoS blockers and with fewer turns of shoting hiting them could roll over any non meq army.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Gunline Tau IS boring for everyone involved. It needs no tactics at all to be effective. I should know, i sold all my Tau a few weeks after the new codex. Due to it being so boring to play.

My army is IG , everything I tau do better. They have better gunlines , better mobility , can battle brother eldar , where I have to battle brother marines . Riptide >2 vendetta . If a table is made to "counter" tau or eldar , because the game is "boring" , aka marines and demons can lose, then my IG get spanked even harder . I would rather lose to tau and eldar who are superior and have a good chance other armies , then still lose to tau and eldar and lose to demons and marines too , just so that marine players find the game more "exciting" aka a free win against me .

I agree here. Changing things about will only mean that somebody else gets put to the bottom of the pile. Fill the board up with los blocking terrain then then the weaker shooting armies will end up at the bottom of the pile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

It has been shown fairly convincingly on other threads that terrain doesn't really hamper at least the Eldar very much. In fact, in some circumstances, it helps them. No amount of "tactica. depth" can change the fact tha the Wave Serpent hits like a marine battle tank and is quasi immortal.

This is true. Negating penetrating hits on a 2+ is really good. ALthough when I get wave serpents I plan to use serpent shields to add to the shooting value of the tank

AV 14 units can't score and have marginal firepower. So is this actually important?

Depends on what they are, what they do and what mission is being played. AV14 for me tends to be Land Raiders containing nasty units of terminators. Although they may not be able to score they certainly can wreck my units in the case they get into combat. In the case of Blood Angels their Land Raiders are dedicated transports and so therefore can carry scoring assault squads. In big guns never tire Leman Russ' can capture objectives. It depends on the game really.

All in all I'm not saying that Tau can't deal with AV14, they can and they can do it effectively, but the units that do it are the units that some Tau players don't generally consider too much. They either need to make way for a hammerhead which competes with Skyrays and Missilesides for heavy support slots or they have to specifically arm their crisis teams with fusions with crisis teams competeing against Riptides for Elite slots and also with other crisis builds like missile pods to consider.

I'll start limiting the number of riptides/skyrays/broadsides i bring in a tau army, when everyone else starts limiting how many Leman russ/waveserpents/venoms/vendettas/bikes/whatever everyone else brings.
Expecting a tau army to 'play fair' by not using certain units, without limiting yourself in what you bring, is sheer hypocrisy

Asking Tau players to self-nerf is insanity. Although, I guess that's what people are doing by refusing to play them.

I never refused to play GK back in 5th after their codex kicked my BA right in the jimmies. But then, the GK never shot me off the table like what is happen against Eldar and Tau. The marines just can't soak up the firepower well enough to make it a game most of the time.

I have to hope for abysmal dice from the Taudar turn 1 and 2. That's not very interesting to me.