So my friend is making a Lizardmen in Space army (see errata: Necrons xD) and they're called Varks, this was originally going to be a post to figure out of his Korak Troopers were OP, but it has slowly evolved into a C&C army thing, so I'll leave it at that.
His (original, I'm not sure how many canges have been made to this statline and pts cost etc.) proposed unit for Fast Attack is:
Korak Tooper
Unit Type: Jump Pack Infantry
WS3 BS3 S6 T6 W1 I3 A2 Ld9 3+
-Can be taken in units of 1-8 at 43ppm
-Any model in the unit can take Pressure Claws in stead of Spine Guns for free (S+1 AP4 Melee, Collapse) Collapse: On a roll of a 6 to hit the hit becomes AP1
-The entire squad can take Echo Grenades for 20pts (On an assault, the opposing squad can not fire any Overwatch shots)

Equipment:
Jump Packs
Spine Guns (Range: D3+1x12" S5 AP3 heavy 3)
Close Combat Weapon
Amphibian (Water does not count as difficult or dangerous terrain)

Special Rules:
Jump Pack Infantry
Relentless

those jump infintry have quite great guns.... a possible 48" range? looks like a super dark reaper unit to me.

You know, I was thinking how complicated I could make a basic gun, but this wins. So every time you shoot, you roll a D3+1x12"...oh wow that's awful.

Just pick a range. It looks overpowered with the combinations of possible AP1, no overwatch from grenades, and T6. I'll come back later and decide.

He says the random range for the guns isn't overcomplication, it's an army trait, as most of the guns in his army roll for a random range

thats pretty complicated.....

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
He says the random range for the guns isn't overcomplication, it's an army trait, as most of the guns in his army roll for a random range

Sorry, but that's just poor design as far as I'm concerned. It slows down the game needlessly, confuses opponents every time they ask for the range of their gun, and it feels like a bit of a cop out of just picking a range for the gun.

Right now, its a minimum 24" gun, but can go up to 48", and will reliably hit 36" more often than not.

If someone showed me these rules in person, I'd tell them to pick a range.

 Blacksails wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
He says the random range for the guns isn't overcomplication, it's an army trait, as most of the guns in his army roll for a random range

Sorry, but that's just poor design as far as I'm concerned. It slows down the game needlessly, confuses opponents every time they ask for the range of their gun, and it feels like a bit of a cop out of just picking a range for the gun.

Right now, its a minimum 24" gun, but can go up to 48", and will reliably hit 36" more often than not.

If someone showed me these rules in person, I'd tell them to pick a range.

He says it's similar to a weapon having a random Str, AP value or shots (like Lootas), and it's only one more roll

i dont think it would slow the game down, its only one extra roll per unit and it would add a bit more more uncertainty to the game, they could be 48" or it could be a pitiful 24". its no different that a gun with random AP or number of shots.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
i dont think it would slow the game down, its only one extra roll per unit and it would add a bit more more uncertainty to the game, they could be 48" or it could be a pitiful 24". its no different that a gun with random AP or number of shots.

This is him :3

Except every gun would have this. Random shots/ap/strength are generally restricted to one or two units per army. If this his 'theme', it would slow the game down unnecessarily when picking a range would be far simpler and easier to balance.

Yes, but its more original, only one extra roll per unit wont slow the game down that much, no more than every grey knight unit making a psychic test every turn

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
Yes, but its more original, only one extra roll per unit wont slow the game down that much, no more than every grey knight unit making a psychic test every turn

Original? How?

Random anything isn't original. The theme of 6th has been to increase the randomness and number of random rolls required.

I strongly think the game needs to move away from that.

The army is not predominantly random, and has no random tables or anything else that is rolled for randomly. I would agree too much randomness is bad, but that is basically the only random factor in the army, beyond the normal random effects of the game

Then my question is; why include even that?

What does this random mechanic actually add? Would it be functionally the same to use the statistical average? Would the army work the same? Would be it be simpler? Does it remove the feel of the army?

Honestly, it doesn't add anything to the army. If anything, its a sticking point. When doing custom anything, its always best to be simple and clear, and randomness only complicates. Besides, its infinitely easier to balance a fixed number, especially if its your basic troop's gun.

Just ask yourself; would the army still the same if this random mechanic was removed?

I just like it, as im not totally opposed to randomness in the game. Its the staple weapon of the army and the chance of a low range helps compensate for the power of some of the guns.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
I just like it, as im not totally opposed to randomness in the game. Its the staple weapon of the army and the chance of a low range helps compensate for the power of some of the guns.

Right, but the chance for the low range actually counteracts the chance for a long range, not the power of the gun.

Yes, but rolling a short range will generally hurt more than the benefits of rolling a long range, which be more of a situational advantage.

Horrific to play with as well.

If you PLAN to to be in 36" and be able to shoot and you get the wrong Range, your fethed.

Original = unique to some degree.
There is a reason that things are not done alot of the time.

Average range is 36" on a S5, AP3 gun with 3 shots.
Which is carried by a S6 jump infantry model with 4 attacks on the charge.
Or, it can swap that gun for S7 attacks at AP4, which with your collapse rule allow it to chew through infantry and vehicles with ease.
And ontop of that, you cant overwatch them.

On the plus side, they have no save, so its easy enough to shoot them to death on turn 1.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
Yes, but rolling a short range will generally hurt more than the benefits of rolling a long range, which be more of a situational advantage.

No, not really. They're both equal disadvantages and advantages. Positioning would play a greater role.

But this is also showing how randomness is difficult to balance. Especially in a new race development.

 Jackal wrote:
Original = unique to some degree.
There is a reason that things are not done alot of the time.

Average range is 36" on a S5, AP3 gun with 3 shots.
Which is carried by a S6 jump infantry model with 4 attacks on the charge.
Or, it can swap that gun for S7 attacks at AP4, which with your collapse rule allow it to chew through infantry and vehicles with ease.
And ontop of that, you cant overwatch them.

On the plus side, they have no save, so its easy enough to shoot them to death on turn 1.

Apologies, forgot to include they have a 3+ armour save

What Bloodhorror said, if you were planning to be in range of something and you roll short, then thats a big disadvantage, ill admit its not tactically perfect, but its no different to random charge ranges or running. I think my army needs a bit of randomness and i think its a nice little rule that hasnt been done before.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
What Bloodhorror said, if you were planning to be in range of something and you roll short, then thats a big disadvantage, ill admit its not tactically perfect, but its no different to random charge ranges or running. I think my army needs a bit of randomness and i think its a nice little rule that hasnt been done before.

But planning to be at max range and rolling it is a significant advantage.

But if you planning at max range the chances are you wont roll it and will have lost that units shooting for a whole turn.

So they have a marines save.
A weapon which outranges most guns, then strips armour better than 95% of other guns.
They are jump infantry.
Oh, and they have the same stats as a tyranid mawloc, minus the wounds.

You have made a single wound MC, thrown an amazing gun on it, given it great mobility and the ability to be taken in units of up to 8.
Sometimes even points cant level out a model to the point its useable in a game.

Yeah.

Overpowered to hell.

 Jackal wrote:
So they have a marines save.
A weapon which outranges most guns, then strips armour better than 95% of other guns.
They are jump infantry.
Oh, and they have the same stats as a tyranid mawloc, minus the wounds.

You have made a single wound MC, thrown an amazing gun on it, given it great mobility and the ability to be taken in units of up to 8.
Sometimes even points cant level out a model to the point its useable in a game.

Castellax Battle Automata xD
Nuff said methinks, 85pts for a T7 MC with 4 wounds and an AP3 heavy bolter (basically the Spine gun with a 24" range)

But not Jump infantry, in units of 8 or a 36" range.

AND That's not 40k. That's in 30k where things are considerably more silly.

Keep the stats as they are. but make it 80 points per model with 2 wounds each and a unit size of 1-3

And the weapon stats at 12"

Theyre not an MC, they dont have AP 2 in combat and to get the combat weapon requires them to give up their shooting. I will concede that the shooting may be slightly under costed, however

And thats a FW units for 30k is it not?
A game which also lets you use primarchs.
So it has basically the same gun, but only 33% of the time, 66% of the time its range goes up another 50%-100%
Its also double the points, slower, and how many attacks does it have?


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They are S6, T6 with 4 attacks fab, how many dedicated combat units in 40k do you know with that?

The gun is not as OP as you make it out. A heavy bolter with +1 AP is not going to kill everything, esspecially with all the cover available now a days.

Yeah, but 8 guys that can move 12" a turn and get 24" - 48" worth of Range its a little daft.

Heavy Bolter Squads would have to move forward to combat them, thus forcing snapshots (assuming not relentless or S&P) and making them get owned even more.

Whats the best average save around the board?
The gun removes it completely.

AP3 is used either on short ranged units for hunting armoured targets (vespid weapons)
Or on long ranged anti-tank weapons.
And both are usually single shot.

None have the ability of range, low AP and high fire rate.


Find me a unit in 40k that compares to this unit.

The squad size is easily remedied. I wouldnt have a problem shifting that to a 3 or 4 model limit.

not 3 or 4.

3.

A unit of 3 for 240 points is fine.

24" range on the weapons as well.


Alternatively, make the shot d3+1

dark reapers, disintegrator cannons, chem cannons, plasma rifles, all of these are anti infantry high AP weapons


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If people think the random range is unacceptable, then im not about to make the shots random as well

Reapers - Look at the models costs and its stats.
Dis cannons - Range, and availability.
Chem - Its on a tank.
Plasma rifles - Low range and fire rate and again, availability.

Thats 1 unit you posted so far which is nothing like the one here.
The rest were weapons which were either vehicle mounted or available in small quantities.

I sent him this: Black Woman in Hindsight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AajslFuPro
This is essentially what I want to say, summed up in a video xD

No I mean make the shots D3+1 and the range 24" flat.

i dont see how those weapons are any less avaidable than mine, and the disintegrator cannon, is on a fast skimmer, has 3 shots and even better AP i believe


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I want to keep the random range, but i could bring it down to D3x12" perhaps? ( whch is the statistical equivalent of 24")

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
i dont see how those weapons are any less avaidable than mine, and the disintegrator cannon, is on a fast skimmer, has 3 shots and even better AP i believe

But can it be taken in squads of 8, is it S6 T6 and is it 43pts?

and probably a rise in points cost



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, if i take the maximum squad size down to 3, make the range of the guns D3x12" and rise the price to 52 points a model, would that be acceptable?

And how many of those skimmers can you take in a unit and for what cost?
And if you cant see the difference between a vehicle mounted weapon and an infantry carried weapon, there is an issue somewhere.

The weapons you mentioned are good, but fall short in 1 catagory or more.
Mainly the availability of them.
They are strong, and being able to field the weapons in large quantities does not happen in 40k.

I give up... Proposed rules is not a place for rational discussion.

I'm out.

If the price was to rise to 60 ppm, reduced range and a minimum squad size of 3, would that be better?
The price has almost doubled but i will agree now that shooty S:6 jump infantry are quite powerful, but i like their ranged aspect and the gun, and it makes sense for them to be high strength and jump infantry too, so a raised points cost is the best way to go i think. Would you agree?

I agree with bloodhorror on this one, im out.

Seconding the why bother with random range thing.

And in addition to that, why give them "super rending" when they could just be "rending"?

Because what there weapon does isnt really rending, and it is better, with their low WS theyre going to roll a lot more to hit than to wound

My thoughts:

1. Make the range a short-mid fixed number i.e. 18" or 24" (with Relentless and Jump Packs they will still be firing 30-36")

2. Why do they need to be T6? I don't remember humanoid sized Lizards in WFB being T6. T4 or T5 at the maximum for a unit, especially if you want to keep the 3+ armour save. I would recommend T5 with a 4+ save. These guys are Lizards not Space Marines.

3. Strength 6? Sorry no, no model that isn't a monstrous creature or carrying a special melee weapon should have S6. The average for a humanoid is 3 so let's be generous and say 4.

4. Echo Grenades - make it so that the target has to take an LD test to fire overwatch (Fearless units immune). I don't like the idea of my overwatch being instantly negated.

Yes, I know that CSM have this with their dirge casters, but it is mounted on a flimsy av11 vehicle most of the time that the unit cannot charge out of, not on a unit of sturdy jump packers that can pack nasty cc weapons.

5. Pressure Claws - Make them base strength and ap - . There are at least 4 rending combat weapons that already exist (Harlequins Kiss, Shard of Anaris, Rending Claws, Void Blades) and none of them have base AP. Also change the Collapse rule to Rending. Homebrew rules work best with as few made up rules as possible IMO, especially when there is a suitable rule that already exists.

I would also consider making them Specialist Weapons (so no + 1 attack for 2 weapons) or Unwieldy as they are a free upgrade.

6. Smaller max unit size. I would say 3-5 at the very most, possibly even 1-3.

Sorry if it seems like I am picking apart your entire unit, but that is kind of what you asked for isn't it?

With these changes I would say they should be costed at around 40-45 pts.

2. These are not average humanoid lizardmen, these are kroxigor sized models that also wear big metal suits that would be bolstering their strength considerably. I would see the model as having strength and toughness 5 and then getting +1 strength and toughness thanks to their enhanced armour frame.
4. With the echo grenades, the chaos upgrade is only 5 points and they can take it on all their vehicles, and the only unit it would have major effects on are units with a psyker and divination with foreboding, flamer units and tau, otherwise overwatch is generally just a rare chance to deal a couple of wounds if youre lucky.
5. the weapon has to be worth swapping out the gun for and i dont think anyone would be willing to exchange a S5 AP3 gun for rending in combat. and both voidblades and shard of anaris have additional rules.
6. i would agree a smaller squad size is needed. i would go with 1-3.
i think at 40-45 points these are not nearly points worthy, as for the same cost as a terminator they are too easy to kill and dont even deal that much damage, but i do apreciete the feedback, thankyou

Okay, I've had my moment of 'lolwut', now I'll actually sit down and see if this can go anywhere productive.

First things first; give us at least one, if not two or three of your basic troops choices. These are the core of your army and will go a long way to helping us determine how the rest of the army will balance out. Ideally, any army wide USRs should be posted now too.

I agree, this is a look over rules for one unit in an army that hasnt been peer assessed yet. it would probably be best to start a new post with army wide rules and basic troop choices.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
I agree, this is a look over rules for one unit in an army that hasnt been peer assessed yet. it would probably be best to start a new post with army wide rules and basic troop choices.

No need, just start here, or edit the first post.

*I'm an idiot, you didn't start the thread.

I like the over all idea, I like the new race and the concept of this unit. I understand what you're trying to do and where you are going with this gun. People are upset about the range because its with a tough unit that is mobile. Yeah its a randomized gun range but all it takes is that at least 42"roll and you covered practically the whole field with a strong gun.make it a range of 24" or have it 18" +2d6 range for a max of 30 if you really want to add that guess shooting in.

It is a nice unit but the long range chance vs the short range chance is more over powered because they are fast moving and even after turn 1 they will have good range with a minimum of 24" especially if you go second. I think the 18+2d6"range is your better bet

If you do it that way I think the points are pretty good then.

5. Pressure Claws - Make them base strength and ap - . There are at least 4 rending combat weapons that already exist (Harlequins Kiss, Shard of Anaris, Rending Claws, Void Blades) and none of them have base AP. Also change the Collapse rule to Rending. Homebrew rules work best with as few made up rules as possible IMO, especially when there is a suitable rule that already exists

So much this.

Kroxigor sized models etc

Should make stuff like this clearer from the get go.

In this case, I'd be more inclined to use Nobs as a base. Big & dumb, 2 wounds and T4-T5 but worse armour, crappy BS but rather killy up close. Dunno about Jump Troops for such big models.

There are lizard people in 40k already. Name escapes me. But they have shotguns mounted on their backs or chest, climb vertical surfaces, are quite stealthy and smell horribly rancid. I'dwwork with that as a bases and look into making them more of a short range force.

Id point out that the base troops would be working on the brutish high S and T but low WS BS and I style of infantry. The lizard guys you are thinking of are the loxytl mentioned in the 4the Ed rulebook, i tried to work them in as a fast attack choice but im not sure how it worked.
18"+2D6 might work.. but it wouldnt be much different from lowering the range to D3x12" which i feel would be easier to use on the battlefield IMO

Theres also Dark Eldar Sslyth

WS 4 BS 4 S 5 T 5 W 2 I 4 A 3 LD 3 (lol) Sv 5+
Fleet + FNP
Various spliter weapons etc.

I know there are other lizard races around (i had forgotten about the sslyth tbh) but other than keeping the theme of physically strong but low to average skill, i dont want to just copy rules and stats.

You don't have to copy them, but just use them as a base. Heres S5 T5 W2 and FNP - if you want to be tougher than that, your just being greedy!

Another big issue is those weird guns you've got. Consider, if the vast majority of people ITT think random range is stupid, maybe you should just change it? And like I said earlier, why super-rending? And what does another rending basic gun like the Shuriken stuff really add to the game?

For main guns, off the top of my head we've got
~Bolter Equiv (SM, CSM, GK)
~Bolter Equiv w/ Mass # of shots and overwatch (Orks)
~Bolter Equiv w/ glances on 6 (Necron)
~Bolter Equiv w/ bonus shots on 6 (Necron)
~Poison (Dark Eldar)
~High Strength (Tau)
~Lasgun (IG)
~Lasgun or Bolter Equiv w/ Rending (Eldar) (can't remember S of weapon)
~Mass Precision (Kroot)
+whatever it is termagaunts are

Either fit the main gun into the Bolter or Lasgun Equiv, or try and give it an interesting effect different from one of these. Random range doesn't really make it different in a meaningful way IMO.

Here is what i think when i see this. The below is a basic troop choice.

Loxatl Mercenaries

WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 4
T: 4
W: 1
I: 2
A: 1
LD: 10

Equipment:

Flachette Shotgun: R18" - Assault 2 - S4 - AP Nill
May take solid rounds giving it the following shooting option: May Opt to shoot as a Hot Shot Lasgun with Assault 1 instead of rapid fire

Natural camo: Count as equiped with camo cloaks

One model may take a melta bomb.

Points ?

Universal Loxatl Rules:

Cold Blooded: Re roll failed Moral tests

Predator: Gains the behind enemy lines rule detailed in the storm trooper entry

Adhesive Skin: Move Through Cover and Ignores Dangerous terrain tests. (maybe pass over impassible terrain?)

Rancid Stench: Counts as having defensive grenades

Slow Minded (maybe Re name): +1 to deny the witch roles.

Natural Armour: 6+ Armour save which cannot be modified.



So maybe too many rules but the rules are easily used as rules for the whole army. Give the units the least amount of rules as possible. So for example fast attack Loxatl can have flamer options etc etc.
They are more like guerrilla fighters in the way they fight so hopefully their rules show that. No armour, Low stats but great at using cover especially up close, can move through a lot and are versatile provided they can make it to their targets etc. Please be critical as i can see huge potential but i can also see them failing lol. I know this isnt even close to the OP but start from the basic soldiers and work your way up to the other stuff.

So once the basic guys are done the rest of the units can be changed like maybe making poisoned weapons on some for example.

Image doesn't work man, was it this one;

If not, it totally should be!

I'll give my own take on the above later on when I've had a chance to read up on the Loxatl. All I know is that being Mercenaries, their Ld should probably be terrible, as Mercs tend to cut and run if the going gets tough - the Sslyth have Ld 3 for example.

What I don't approve of is things like "can fire as a Hotshot Lasgun" and "see Storm Trooper rules" etc from a totally unrelated codex.

Off the top of my head, flechettes would devastate, well, flesh whilst sucking against armour. They could have Fleshbane or Shred but the target gets +1 to armour saves. That'd make them unique. Along the same lines, Shotguns in this game are woefully boring - a modifier to strength based on distance, or a benefit to overwatch could be in order as well or instead of the flechette rules.

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=loxatl+40k&rlz=1C1CHWA_enNZ531NZ531&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Rbd1Ut3bH4TlkgWFhYBY&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=979#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=grd8BsoTfahICM%3A%3B03l6GrbR62X11M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fmedia.desura.com%252Fimages%252Fgroups%252F1%252F3%252F2055%252FLoxatldetails.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.desura.com%252Fgroups%252Fwarhammer-40k-fans-group%252Fimages%252Floxatl%3B694%3B1000

Thats the official 40k art they have.

In the gaunts ghosts book they are equipped with flachete shotguns so i tried to play those. They are mercinaries but a brutish lizards tend to have high leadership due to not being the smartest or quickest. I was thinking of fleshbane but i though it may be a bit powerful to have on basic troops. And the "can fire as a hot shot lasgun" is just temporary and i put it there so they can use something to deal with armour etc. But yes we can adapt the rules and more importantly their names.

In the books they where stealthy, cunning, smelt horribly rancid, liked to kill their prey up close, could walk on walls etc and more importantly they where very hard to kill (almost immune to lasfire). But i didnt want them to be too OP so i gave them a traditional lizard like profile whilst sticking to what ive read about them in gaunts ghosts.

They are very intelligent too but slow to react etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
more Accurate

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=loxatl+40k&rlz=1C1CHWA_enNZ531NZ531&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Rbd1Ut3bH4TlkgWFhYBY&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=979#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=sAz5g01epBuhyM%3A%3BD_7CEtRuYoh6CM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.beastsofwar.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2013%252F08%252FLoxatl.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.beastsofwar.com%252Fwarhammer-40k%252Fsupplementary-thinking-crafting-army-list%252F%3B532%3B385

I like it, I read the Gaunts Ghosts series and remember the loxatl. I like the profile, but I think the gun instead of the hot shot, make it assault 1 with rending, so you can choose 2 str 4 AP - shots or 1 str 4 AP - rending shot. Makes it more doable and you have to earn your AP 2. I like everything else, maybe a suggestion though because they have a rule to re-roll Morale tests make them ld 7 with a type of sgt upgrade to up to 2 models to have ld 9 and stubborn maybe. The squads base size should be 14 to a max of 32 and if you take at least 30 you get a 3rd sgt upgrade. They should be about 8-10 points at the most per model.

Yea maybe lower leadership is a good idea,shall i just edit the my post to show it? since they are so close to imperial guardsmen but with buffs and little weapon options i was gonna make them 8 points a model roughly. Maybe give the sergeant the option for a storm bolter? and yes maybe but if i where playing as these guys id never try get the rending shot as its more reliable to have multiple shots. but thats just me.

They seem closer to Orks than Guardsmen to me

true lol true, orks didnt come to mind once when doing this haha, how much is an ork points wise?

Well the rending shots can be taken against a light vehicle to get some pens and glances. Um for your upgraded Sgt give him some type of option for a rapid fire weapon at 30 inch range str 5 AP 6 with a rule that if he gets a roll of 6 to hit the gun counts as a str 6 AP 4 . I think for what the models have I was leaving toward 9 points because of their toughness 4 and even str 4 somewhat and I would make them initiative 3 maybe since they don't get any special melee weapons. You know what you can do is for their basic gun the other option shot is a poison 5+ AP 4 instead

This is fun these guys sound cool.

6 points nets you;

WS 4 BS 2 S 3 (furious charge) T 4 W 1 I 2 A 2 (can have P+CCW) Ld 7 (mob rule so often fearless) Sv 6+

They are low initiative because they can be very slow creatures being cold blooded and all. much like the saurus etc. maybe a poison round option. it may be cooler to have a list of rounds and they can purchase one of them fro the gun. much like how a missile launcher works with its frag and krak. So there may be a poison shot, a bolter shot, a hot shot, etc the list can go on? maybe


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hmmm maybe 8 points is about right. considering how similar they are but it looks like the lizards have more rules behind them.

Well with the leadership thing I mentioned earlier and their gun naturally comes with a assault 2 str 4 AP - 18"range or you can fire it with assault 1 poison 5+ AP 4 and make them 9 points and I want to change the squad size from minimum of 7 to a max of 25 with only having the option of 2 sgt upgrades with the 2nd one coming after 18 models.

Well ask yourself, what exactly are these suppost to be? If they are mercenaries I'd argue they should be more expensive and more effective. If they are rank and file, then what is their role? Cannon fodder? Infiltrators? Light Infantry? Assault troops?

Well i imagine them as an annoyance and fast moving scout lizards really, but fluff wise they hunted in small groups apparently. in short they are a scout unit. I think my rules show that they are.

I thought of the Loxatyl as possibly an evolutionary strain of a bigger lizard race, that could include faster smaller lizards, bigger more brutish lizards possibly bigger like lizardmen in fantasy, it would provide more diversity for an entire army.

Which is all well and good but I think as a basic soldier its a good start and things can expand from there

Id see them as more fast attack than troops... Id imagine mercenary troops to be bigger and tougher, like galactic muscle for hire. the Loxatyl come across as more specialized to me.

Editing the OP now This is officially a proposed army discussion blog

Would you want me to post stats and rules i had for basic troops in the army?

Yes sir, please.

korak warriors
20 ppm
WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 5
T: 5
W: 1
I: 3
A: 2
Ld: 8
Sv: 4+


Composition: 5-20 Korak warriors

Unit type: infantry

Wargear: Impact armour, spine rifle, close combat weapon.

Special rules: amphibian,

Options: any model may exchange their spine rifle for a spine pistol for free.
the whole squad may take echo grenades for 20pts.

spine rifles are
range: 30"
strength: 4
AP: 4
type: rapid fire

spine pistols are
range: 12"
strength: 4
AP: 4
type: pistol

what do you think?

Why AP 4? I really hate how people play all armour saves below 'Marine' as worthless. Many armies pay a through the nose to even get a save Vs. most anti infantry fire (usually Ap 5) with examples being carapace armour and Dark Eldar ghostplate, you pay several points per model only for it to be negated by this codex's main troops who out range them and ignore their armour? Not ok in my eyes for a basic gun. There is a reason every other codex's main weapon type taps out at AP 5, because units with a 5+ save aren't expected to survive and are cheap. While units with a 4+ save usually come in much smaller unit sizes, and are expected to stick around. Your base weapon should be Ap 5, like everyone else. Not saying you have to be exactly the same, you could take a leaf outta the grey knight book and have a unit-wide buff (Serrated spines?) for 20pts to upgrade the unit to Ap 4 much like psy ammo makes stormbolters strength 5.

The problem here if that you are assuming all armies have a 3+ save, when the most popular armies right now are Tau (4+/3+ majority), Eldar (4+ majority) and Daemons (no save whatsoever). For the unit, you should have the cold blooded rule to make up for lack of fearless, at 20ppm you want them to stick around and maybe Ws 4 to show they where bred for combat.

Tervigons have Cluster Spines. They also shoot spines. S5 AP-

Learn from this.

not all spines are the same.

the AP4 is to make up for their high points cost, and remember, at 20 points a model with BS3 they wont have too many shots, there is also a cheaper troop choice with AP 6 guns, so these guys would not be the only troops choice

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
not all spines are the same.

the AP4 is to make up for their high points cost, and remember, at 20 points a model with BS3 they wont have too many shots, there is also a cheaper troop choice with AP 6 guns, so these guys would not be the only troops choice

You have this weird way of balance. The model is expensive because its S5/T5, not because of the AP. Make it AP5 and it would be better; the 30" range is already a boost enough.

You have to give units a legitimate drawback. You can't make them generally good at everything and justify it with a slightly more expensive price tag.

I spose but they are quite expensive and they have low WS BS and the armour save isnt amazing. But then theyre basically armed with bolters, and i really dont like how most armies seem to have bolters or weapons which are extremely close to bolters. these guys arent the best at shooting and the price tag, when compared to a marine, is quite a bit more.

No, they have average WS and BS and average armour.

They're not poor or bad in any way shape or form.

Theyre less than marine. While being more expensive. they trade WS, BS, I, Ld and ATSKNF for +1 strength, attack and +1 AP on their gun, AND they cost 7 points more. They arent amazing in any particular aspect either, for 20 points a model, which would normally get you specialized troops.

The S and T boost, as well the attacks are significant.

the strength and attacks yes, but against all but AP 3 weapons theyre as difficult to kill as marines and khorne berserkers are better on the charge for less points.

Okay, lets do some math.

140pts of marines (10, with nothing but bolters) will put out 20shots at 12". Of those, ~14 will hit. Now, only a third will wound, so about 5. Then you get to save half, for near enough 2.5 dead.

Your equivalent (7 guys), put out 14 shots at 12". You'll hit with 7, wound with 3.5, and kill one marine.

However, that's when we put them in the marines favour. If you were somewhere between 24" and 30", the marines won't deal any damage, while you still can.

Now, in assault, assuming no charge bonus, marine swing first. 10 attacks, hits on 3s for about 6, then wounds only twice, killing one.

You get 14, half hit, and you get about 4 wounds on. They save a third, for a little over a marine dead. Now, the advantage you have is swapping to pistols, meaning you can shoot, charge, and get the extra attack. This would result in not quite a dead marine from pistols, then 24 attacks (6 survive the marines phase first, with 4 attacks each), leaving almost three dead marines.

So, they're fine. What they lack in raw shooting at 12", they make up at 30", and can swap for pistols for free which gives them the edge in combat.

At 20ppm, they're pretty fine. Give them the option for one special weapon for every 5 or 10 guys, and you have a fine troop choice.

Thankyou they have got options for a special weapon per 5 guys but i didnt put it in, i didnt want to complicate the analysis too much or overload anyone with info

They can take a thunderspear or flesher per 5 models for 10 points each.

flesher is
range: template S: 3 AP: 3 assault 1

Thunderspear is
range: 12" S10 AP: 1 assault 1, one shot

I like what you have mostly so far but people do have a point about the AP thing, instead of rapid fire make them salvo 1/2 and that might change the play style a little bit and if you're tired of everything being Bolter related make it assault 1 with AP 5 or 6. I like your special weapons but that flamer type can be amazing since you can have 4 in a max squad and it's AP 3 it's going to do some damage.

For 4 of the flamer types you'd need 20 modes in the unit, which means 440 points for the ability to take 4 flamers, which are still only S3.

Will a transport be made available for these?

I'll reserve my full judgement after that answer.

Yes, but its expensive. working on the lizardmen theme, the transport is a massive broad-stanced lizrd creature that carries warriors on its back. it would be 80 points

Ok you are right that the point cost is high and yeah it's strength 3 but it auto hits and is AP 3 and because it's a flame template it ignores cover out of 4 of them let's average poorly because of range and you get 2 with each one so it's 8 auto hits and against your average guyyou will use these on you wound on 5's I have seen people make 8 5+ wounds.

But compared to the average flamer, it cost twice as much and has 1 less strength. yes its better against MEQ but its worse against hordes and weaker troops. against, say, daemons or guard, the flamer is better for less points, so id say it balances out.

Why are these creatures vastly superior to space marines?

They're fething lizards man. They should not be 20ppm and they should not be better than marines.

And yes, all spines are the same. If they shoot spines, use preexisting rules for spine guns as a base. It goes a long way towards de-sueing your random fluff-less ultrapowerful lizard dudes.

Edit: Just saw the 10 point AP3 flamer.

These lizards are massive hulking creatures that would dwarf a space marine. There are plenty of creatures out there that are bigger and better than space marines, some of which are troops.

Just because a weapon shares a name the profile doesnt need to be the same? The Nids also have stinger salvos and the dark eldar have stinger pods, but they have totally different profiles. the Tyranid spines are organic and would be grown inside the Tyranid creatures. the spines fired by these models would be either metal or grown by the Vark, nothing to do with the Tyranids what so ever.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
These lizards are massive hulking creatures that would dwarf a space marine. There are plenty of creatures out there that are bigger and better than space marines, some of which are troops.

You do realize that Space Marines are supposed to be roughly seven foot tall, genetically enhanced humans (with extra organs to boot), don't you? They're also then equipped with some of the most powerful armor and deadliest weaponry the Imperium has to offer. A boltgun fires miniature self-propelled rockets, but it's only AP 5. What is a Spine Gun firing that has better penetration than a Boltgun? I don't really see how it makes any sense, even for a game where rule abstractedness is quite common.

Tyranid warriors seem like they would be the most similarly sized unit currently in the game to them, and (despite having extra wounds) are a full point of Strength and Toughness lower. So I suppose what I'm asking is: how big are these things, and what base size to you plan to put them on? Because as it stands, even for a single wound model, they've got to be pretty large.

Your really missing the point that everyone is trying to bring to you here.
AP really does matter on a weapon.

What AP3 flame template weapons can you list?
I can think of the flamestorm, but thats mounted on land raiders and baal preds.

You seem to have this image that doubling the points or adding a bit more makes a stupidly strong weapons fine.
And no matter what people say, you keep trying to use the same point to justify it.

S and T on a model really do matter.
As does AP on a weapon.

You dont have to give models super stats and weapons, people do that all the time which is why others give up on it.
If you want to make things balanced, stick with comparing to basic weapons that are common place.

Flamer - S4, AP5
It works and always has done.
If you want to make it better, make it S5, AP5.

Dropping the AP of a flamer by 2 and the S by 1 does not equal double points.
I'd happily pay 20 points for AP3 flame weapons all day long.



You need to listen more to what people say because certain points have been repeated over and over.



Edit:

Thunderspear is
range: 12" S10 AP: 1 assault 1, one shot

This one is better!
High str and AP, but lacks range and single use on a BS3 model means its only going to hit half of the time.

That is the sort of counter balance and drawbacks you need with most of this stuff.

i think the troop choices are fine. they might have high strength and toughness but if you look back they were compared to spaces marines, and arent much better.

The flamer is high AP and i know that matters, but from what youre saying high AP weapons seem to be only mounted on tanks or super models. High AP isnt that hard to come by, and nearly every army has an option to take it in their regular troops. the only models that my flamer is more effective against is MEQs, and though there are a lot of MEQ armies, there are also a lot of other armies, against which this flamer would be horrifically over costed.

points are being made and im responding to them, and im not making these models super. i just dont want to reinvent the space marine by using things that are already in the game.

Try looking at the wraith guard lists. for 10 points they have access to S4 AP1, instant death and auto penetration on roll of 6 flamers. Id argue yours being double that is very expensive. but it depends on the model weilding it.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
High AP isnt that hard to come by, and nearly every army has an option to take it in their regular troops.

I refer you to Tyranids and Orks.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
points are being made and im responding to them, and im not making these models super. i just dont want to reinvent the space marine by using things that are already in the game

But you are making them Super. Your units are outranging Space Marines, are harder to shift and just plain stupid.


Either start listening to peoples advice and take peoples points on board, or stop trying to justify the absurd level of bs you are posting

Rant Over...

AP 3 flamer is fine with me, Its the exact same as the Incubi Klaivex's Blood Stone, and NO ONE uses that. What's not OK with AP 4 base weapons when you have such a high range. How about you go down to 18ppm and add serrated spines as a 20pt upgrade to grant AP 4, still works out as 20ppm in a 10 man unit and it gives you more options to work with, say if you live in a MEQ heavy environment.

Daemon hunters
Space marines
Chaos space marines
Sisters of battle
Tau
Most eldar aspect lists
Necrons

All of those die easier to that flamer. (possibly some ive missed too)
Which is a bit more than just marines.
The heavier flame weapons are all hull mounted weapons on tanks, so not easily available in mass.
These flamers are even stronger than a flamer of tzeentch, which is alot more expensive and on a weaker model.

You also need to take into account that flamers have 2 very big advantages.
1: No cover against them, so you have to rely on saves.
This is why flame weapons are rarely better than AP5.
2: BS means nothing.
You said the normal guns are fine because of low BS, in this case, that means nothing since they auto-hit.


Your missing the point.
No one wants you to re-invent marines since lizards are great and a really good concept for an army.
But every army follows a base structure for weapons, stats and wargear that compared to each army, comes out similar.

You need to flick through a few codex books and see how they have balanced things, because upping the points really is no way to balance something.




Edit:

My biggest point really is that your simply cherry picking stats for weapons and models.
You cant simply pick the best possible stat and apply it because the model is a little more expensive
For balance, a weapon or model needs a drawback and every weapon / model has that.
By removing that balance, it just gives you a super unit.

Look at helldraiks for example.
Fast, hard to hit and that flamer is a real bastard.
Look at the issues it causes with people on dakka with how strong they think it is.
Thats what happens when you start applying alot more strengths to a model than weaknesses.



Also, i'd be interested to see what ideas you have for a tank hunting unit in your army.

id be ok to drop the range to 24". with salvo the unit would be able to fire their AP4 weapons but it means they wouldnt be taking advantage of their high strength and attacks.

they arent harder to shift actually, they are about as hard to kill as space marines and have worse leadership and no ATSKNF, not to mention costing more!

i think some people want these to be under powered, which is quite understandable as theyre a new unit, but some of these need to be worth taking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
my units do have weaknesses, the low S of the flamer, the low WS and BS of the lizards, their high points cost (which i know i go on about but it is a big factor) and the salvo, as i am taking points into account and changing the models. the thunderspear may be a bit under powered, just compare it to the meltagun and consider that is usually on a BS 4 model.

Your really not listening to the points made.
People dont want them under powered.
They want to help you bring them to a playable level.

The guns for example:

The range is in line with tau - An army that specialises in shooting, and the only one to have 30" guns on basic troops.
They also cant fight.

Salvo weapons: Really only noise marines that spring to mind on this one and its not really a big deal, salvo works pretty well.

AP4 shooting - no basic army has this in their common place troops.

So you have a high ranged, good rate of fire weapon that chews through armour better than every other basic weapon.

See the point here?
Models and weapons need a drawback.

Tau vespid have AP3 weapons, but very short range to compensate.
They are also carried by very fragile models.


So no, moving a marine is alot easier since these can outshoot them, the extra toughness really makes them solid.

What we really need is for you to post a model/unit from HQ, Elite, Troops, fast attack and heavy support.
Atleast then we can get some ideaof how it will shape as an army.

All we know at this stage is that they are krox sized (which isnt alot bigger than a marine looking at the ones on my shelf)
And the 2 units posted.

my units do have weaknesses, the low S of the flamer, the low WS and BS of the lizards, their high points cost (which i know i go on about but it is a big factor) and the salvo, as i am taking points into account and changing the models. the thunderspear may be a bit under powered, just compare it to the meltagun and consider that is usually on a BS 4 model

Those stats are not low though, they are average stats for models.
Now your comparing them to marines.
High points does not balance a model.
Salvo is not a weakness for anyone 0_o
Yes, lets compare it to a melta gun.
What S is it again? (8)
And again, your comparing them to marines.
Guard make use of more melta than marines do, and thats on BS3, T3 models with pretty much no save.

Ill admit i havnt seen the krox models and have been trying to get hold of some off my friend, ill judge size then.

Ive conceded to bring the weapon down to 24" range, which is fine, but you cant just look at eh gun in isolation, theyre on a BS3 model and unlike tau these guys cant take markerlights to make them more accurate as well as only putting out half the shots for the same points. AP 4 is only better against units with a 4+ armour save. Otherwise bolters are just as good and pulse rifles better, and with salvo, if these guys want 2 shots each they wont be able to move, limiting that unit a lot.

And they have less armour than SMs. it takes 6 bolter hits to kill a SM and it takes the same number to kill on of the Lizard guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
thats because they seem closest to marines statwise.

Good tip, try for your life to get the metal ones.
I have 12 finecast ones and they really are a mess. (was from 4 different orders)
Bad moulds i think, not to mention dodgy pouring areas on delicate chains and weapon handles.

Ok, so you want it to be better than other weapons?
Markerlights mean dedicating another unit to helping them out, which brings points up alot, so instead of 12 models shooting, you now have 12 models shooting while 6-12 more aim at them and dont do any damage.
Salvo does limit movement, but so does rapid fire.
You seem to forget that BS is not a common thing for most army.
BS3 is the common average through armies, dropping down to 2 for orks (which have an 18", S4, AP5 weapon with assault 2)
So low stats on everything for them, but for 2 shots (that only 1/3 shots will hit)

You complaining about not wanting people to compare them to marines as a base, but your doing the same.

You either need to move away from the marine idea as a whole or go more in depth with it.

Yes, they have lower WS than a marine, but in combat, that really wont make any difference.
The added S and attacks will though.
It also means that even your most basic troops can hunt armour.



So whats your take on a lizard anti-tank unit?

somene did some maths for them and they were only marginally better than marines at range and in combat. i have no problem with people comparing them to marines now, as they are quite similar with all the changes.

most armies seem to have BS4 now, guard dont and tau dont (though i believe tau units can now use their units own markerlights) and orks have BS2 but they have 2 S4 shots at 6 points a model with the ability to charge after, and no matter what you might say, points do matter!

and i am hoping to take a look at some friends models when he brings them in, and i think his are metal.

oh and salvo is more restricting for movement than rapidfire, you can move and longshot with rapidfire, not so with salvo

I really do suggest that you read a few codex for other armies, since BS4 is not the average by any means.
Its just most common because marine orientated armies are very popular compared to other armies.
Ie: Marine players outweigh most other armies by quite a bit.

The only tau unit that can use its own markerlight is the skyray, which is a missile tank.

Your right, points do matter.
But creating a super unit and adding on a few points does not create any form of balance what so ever.

Orks are also S3, T4, have a save thats stripped by any weapon with an AP value, the list goes on.
Also, the ork shoota may have 2 shots, but 30 boyz (180 points) will only hit with 20 shots, which average 10 wounds on normal models before saves.

Yes people still take sluggas and choppas because of the +1 attack in combat since they will get more use from it.



Your comparisons are miles off with most things and you justify your points based on pretty much nothing except you want to do it, so i agree with blood on this one.
Its pointless trying to actually show someone valid points when they arent willing to listen to anything except their own posts.
Enjoy

Wraithguard are a base 32 point model and come with a str 10 AP 2 gun at 12 range, to upgrade to a d-scythe gun it's 10 points per model and it is str 4 AP 2 flame template with instant death rule on 6's and auto penetrating hit on 6. So think about that.

Dat Guy wrote:
Wraithguard are a base 32 point model and come with a str 10 AP 2 gun at 12 range, to upgrade to a d-scythe gun it's 10 points per model and it is str 4 AP 2 flame template with instant death rule on 6's and auto penetrating hit on 6. So think about that.

This guy is correct, i didnt have my codex on hand so sorry for the misinformation. Thanks man

Your welcome, but I didn't post it on purpose for that reason lol I just now saw your post about it, it's all good at least it makes you normal and me a nerd because I knew it off the top of my head haha

to jackal, i am listening to peoples post and i am happy to make adjustments on my units, but telling theyre way OP when in actual fact they arent isnt really helping, but you are welcome to stop posting if you think im being stubborn

the wraithguard are a good example and are quite similar to these lizard people due to high S T but average WS BS and I (i think)

also, bear in mind that as all of the models will have salvo weapons, none of them will get overwatch.

You seem to be under the common misconception that Bs 4 is average. Bs 4 is meant to represent the abilities of people who have trained in range combat for years in gruelling wars (Veterans) and is the pinnacle most un-enhanced humans can get to. Otherwise it represents super-human aim, either through alien reflexes or bodily enhancements.

Bs 3 is a 'normal' human soldier who is trained for war. An average civilian would be Bs 2, Bs 3 represents knowing how to fire a gun and hit a target at 100m-ish, could you do that consistently? It might help if you explained what these guys are, rather then just throwing rules at us. For example I simply can't understand what justifies those spines to fire so far and punch through high quality armour (4+ represents very good armour, a 3+ almost impervious to small arms fire) like it was nothing. Make your rules around your fluff, not the other way round.

they are among the races created by the old ones, and are a large race of lizard creatures, that utilize their own technology that mainly consists of weapons firing solid metal projectiles. they have about the same skill level as the IG and these korak warriors are the standing soldiers of the race. many vark will also sell their skill at arms and strength as mercenaries.

you may have a point with the spine rifle but the spines fired would be very thin and would impact on a sharpened point (like armour piercing rounds) and be fired at high speeds and hit a very small surface area

Going well?

Oh, so...just like any other solid-slug weapon? You need to understand what you want these guys to do. Are they back field campers, mid field players or do they advance aggressively. Judging solely on the fact these guys are based on Lizardmen Saurus/Krox I'd say they should be aggressive units. You have the right stat-line, maybe a few points to expensive, but that's fine. They should have that cold blooded rule to make up for lack of access to fearless/ATSKNF. How about, to put them firmly into the position as this armies aggressive objective takers you give them a unique weapon, a 24'' spike rifle Str 3 Ap 5 rapid fire. But the catch is that when within half range, they gain +1 strength and -1 Ap, making them preform very well at that 12'' range. Pistols could do the same but at range 12 with extra strength at 6''. This would represent that the spines lose power over long distances, but at short range they are strong enough to punch through armour. Thoughts?

Whilst I like that, why should that be the only weapon that gets it?


I'm sure there are many other weapons that are more powerfull at close range than they are at long range.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Spine Guns (Range: D3+1x12" S5 AP3 heavy 3)

I'm confused, can someone please explain what is so scary about the range on these guns.

The possibility that they have a 60" threat range.

 Bloodhorror wrote:
The possibility that they have a 60" threat range.

How? D3+1x12 gives you a range of 13"-15".

According to my calculator (just to be safe haha) the range goes its either 24" 36" or 48". The range has to be one of those multiples of 12. Happy Jew i think your getting multiplication and addition mixed up. If it where a plus then you would be almost bang on. Unless im way wrong...

 Swastakowey wrote:
According to my calculator (just to be safe haha) the range goes its either 24" 36" or 48". The range has to be one of those multiples of 12. Happy Jew i think your getting multiplication and addition mixed up. If it where a plus then you would be almost bang on. Unless im way wrong...

Your calculator does not math properly. Multiplication then addition so D3+1*12" = D3+12" = 13"-15".

The below are the different rolls you can get with D3 + 1
2*12=24
3*12=36
4*12=48

 Swastakowey wrote:
The below are the different rolls you can get with D3 + 1
2*12=24
3*12=36
4*12=48

Except the range is D3+1*12.

Order of Operations (PEMDAS) - Parenthesis, Exponent, Multiply/Divide, Add/Subtract.

So first you multiply 1 by 12, then add D3

Yes but that is not what he meant i assure you. He put the dice roll first then he wants you to * the result buy 12. Technically you are right but im very certain thats not what was intended.

Ah, so it is supposed to be (D3+1)*12".

Well, that is a horse of a different colour.

Exactly, which is what i did on my calculator. But of course thats just me looking at it. He could come back and tell me he meant it as written. We will see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS i didnt need a calculator for this but i decided to just in case

If you pulled this on me in a friendly game I would be inclined to find another opponent. Homebrew rules aren't meant to allow you to mess with the balance of the game in this nature.

 Skabfang wrote:
If you pulled this on me in a friendly game I would be inclined to find another opponent. Homebrew rules aren't meant to allow you to mess with the balance of the game in this nature.

Or...you could post something productive and help balance it?

Gotta say, it's been said before and I'll say it again since you don't really seem to grasp the concept of High AP weapons. I pay points out of my butt to get my Vets up to 4+ armor, and points again for that holy BS 4. You said your basic troops are based off the IG right? Well, the basic troop is BS 3. They have a lot more S and T than a regular human, making them much more aggressive than an IG player, which I could understand. But to make them BS 4, would not only allow them to outshoot most people, outrange most basic infantry, but then beat the snot out of them in close combat. I really and truly don't know any other core troop in the game that can do all of that. But, with all that said, I would like to propose some new rules for them.

First, to build on ALEXisAWESOME's idea, how about make it Salvo instead of Rapid Fire? It's more of a fluff thing for me, because I can see the hulking Lizards having to stand still to fire the full power of these guns they are holding. I'd keep the rule on the +1 S -1 AP and maybe even make it an army wide ability? That'd be terribly unique, and would make positioning for this army very important, depending on your need for S or AP.

I'd like to point out my Loxatl where based on the Imperial Guard not his guys. I reckon the AP is fine, my Vet squad hug cover even with the 4+ because so much ignores it in the first place. Just change their BS to 3 and i reckon that's fine.

But i dont see a problem with it really. I mean the imperial guard nova cannon russ can ignore armour 4, instant kill and ignore covor of everything in the imperial guard yet no one complains and its probably cheaper. I see nothing wrong with this unit but id put the BS down to 3.

But an IG tank can go up in flames with a single lucky shot. And to be fair, not a whole lot goes through 4+. Most basic guns are AP 5, and dedicating AP 3 and lower guns to killing a Vet Squad is a waste of shots, which is why the 4+ is worth it. But perhaps you're right, and I might just be grumpy over my expensive point 4+ armor and don't want to see it go to waste.

But, that BS decrease is really needed. And sorry for the mix up on whose units were whose. That was my bad!

All good man but at the end of the day they dont ignore cover and with the bs3 they wont be getting too many hits. Plus they cost a ton of points from memory. So even if they kill a vet squad in a few turns you will have many more to deal with it (in theory anyways).

Like I said earlier, I really think it should be salvo 1/2 then it could be more doable, I don't see being BS 4 with such a primitive race though. Look at Tau they are highly advanced and are the most shooty race/codex in the game and their average guy is BS 3, it can be increased through marker lights but that makes sense for them. I mean if you are worried about amount of shots make it salvo 2/3 meaning if you stand still you can shoot 3 at max range of gun and if you move you can still shoot 2 at half max range.I got to be honest I never played a BS 3 army besides using scouts, I'm used to Eldar and marines. I know orks at BS 2 can do a lot more damage in shooting then people think, and I know that imperial guard put out to many shots that their BS 3 is irrelevant.

Seriously the best way to go is BS 3 salvo 2/3

 Swastakowey wrote:
Exactly, which is what i did on my calculator. But of course thats just me looking at it. He could come back and tell me he meant it as written. We will see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS i didnt need a calculator for this but i decided to just in case

By the way, it is (D3+1)*12 xD

im sorry but i have never said my guys are BS4? all my posted models so far have been BS3.

Personally i like the salvo with a constant S and AP, as i imagine these as hulking guns, probably with multiple barrels that would require the firer to stand still to fire.

Ok sorry about the mix up then, so yeah BS 3 with salvo 2/3 at 30"range is cool. You definitely can't do a str higher then 5 or an AP lower then 4 at best and even then I wouldn't recommend that for a basic troop, if it's thosefast attack jump pack guys it might be interesting since yes they can move 12"but in order to fire at the max range of 30 they need to stand still and to make it interesting make them a str 3 AP 4 gun and then give them a rule if the targets initiative is 4 or higher increase the str of gun by 1.

The current profile of the spine rifles (guns for the basic troops) is:

Range: 24" Strength: 4 AP: 4 Type: salvo 1/2

i think thats acceptable and fair

I would change back the Spine Rifle to rapid fire. Don´t see the point of a Salvo 1/2 weapon.

About Korak Warriors, the analysis by Blacksails is quite good. They are fine. The Thunderspear sounds good too.

I have two issues:
1: the Flesher is too powerful. I would pay 10 pts for it without a second thought, mostly because it is a BS3 model. The weapon is compensating the average BS. An AP3 flamer is always scary, even if it is S3. I would go for AP5 S4 or AP4 S3. If you want it AP3, let it be 15 pts or even 20 pts.
2: how it comes this is a Troop unit? The basic troop unit is usually below 10 pts. Marines are elite troopers, but you are talking about a race. Necrons is the only exception I can think of. To be clear: I am missing Skinks. I am ok with Korak warriors being a troop unit too, but the real basic unit, the first unit I think you should define and test and show to others, should be a Skink equivalent.

Another thing: have you thought of an army-wide special rule? That would help giving them a unique feeling. The "random range for most weapons" concept, as pointed by others, will annoy many players.

I do have another troop choice that is cheaper and less powerful than the korak warriors, i shall list their profile if you want?

I have decided, after much deliberation, to get rid of the random range as too many people were complaining about it. i was thinking a rule called "Amphibian" which means they move through water based terrain without penalty and are stubborn whilst in water based terrain? i thought its a characterful little rule that has little in game impacts.

As powerful as AP3 is if you compare its effectiveness against different troop units from a variety of armies, against a lot of them the 5 point flamer will do more damage, so i think for double the points, the flesher is better, and its a lot harder to spam than normal flamers.

Oh crap and they are relentless?a fast attack relentless salvo or heavy is pretty op even for an elite or fast option.Of course list the other unit profile and yeah a 24 inch salvo 1/2 is what rapid fire used to be before 6th, I said salvo 1/2 earlier when I was thinking it was a 30"range weapon. At 24"it is better at rapid fire or salvo 2/3.

Ok I have a question do these guys still have the jump packs?

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
I do have another troop choice that is cheaper and less powerful than the korak warriors, i shall list their profile if you want?

Yes please.

I have decided, after much deliberation, to get rid of the random range as too many people were complaining about it. i was thinking a rule called "Amphibian" which means they move through water based terrain without penalty and are stubborn whilst in water based terrain? i thought its a characterful little rule that has little in game impacts.

The "random range" rage is expected. A lot of people is upset because the amount of random stuff in 6th edition. Playing Daemons or psyker-spam Tyranids is a pain.

Your army-wide rule sounds cool BUT has too little effect. It is fluffy (means "good"), but need something else. Something that has an effect in-game while not being too powerful. This is difficult, but it is the thing that would define your army. It doesn´t need to be a Special Rule, your random range would have been a cool idea in other edition.

As powerful as AP3 is if you compare its effectiveness against different troop units from a variety of armies, against a lot of them the 5 point flamer will do more damage, so i think for double the points, the flesher is better, and its a lot harder to spam than normal flamers.

Perhaps. That would depend of the rest of the army. However, an AP3 cheap flamer is scary for most opponents, it is the kind of think that I look for when I am searching for overpowered things.

One more thing: I am surprised nobody has mentioned it, but there were Lizardmen in W40K, with rules and models and everything. They were called Slann.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Slann#.UntrOfnTvTo

There were many factions in the setting before it turned into a Marine fest.

I hadnt seen the slann before but i do remember the picture from the 4 ed rulebook.

how powerful would you make the rule? a cover save in water? fearless in water? id like to keep it based around water features to keep it fluffy and situational.

Apart from fleshers and thunderspears, there will be little ranged low AP weapons in the rest of the army, minus some specialist troops. And the fleshers cost the same as a meltagun, which is a superb anti tank weapon at around the same range.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
the other troop choice are Nazak hunters. these would be the hunters in vark society, but would be called upon in war to fight.

12 ppm

WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 4
T: 4
W: 1
I: 3
A: 1
Ld: 8
Sv: 4+

Composition: 5-20 Nazak hunters
Unit type: infantry
Wargear: Impact armour, Spiker
Special rules: amphibian, natural sniper
Options: up to two models may exchange their Spikers for one of the following:
- Flesher, 10 points
- Thunderspear, 10 points
one model may exchange their Spiker for one of the following:
- Heavy Spiker, 20 points
the whole squad may take echo grenades for 10pts.

spikers are weapons that shoot a salvo of short spikes that once imbedded in the opponent will burn up, and reduce the victims inards to a molten slag:
range: 24" strength: 4 AP: 6 type: salvo 1/2, cauterise

cauterise: no hull points or wounds inflicted by this weapon may be regenerated through the It Will Not Die special rule

Natural sniper: Many Vark can aim with extreme accurately with their weapons if positioned properly. Any model with this rule will gain +1 BS in the shooting phase if they didn't move in the movement phase.

Really awesome, I see a lot of distinction here. For the weapon upgrades though I would say you need a minimum of 10 for the first upgrade and then 15 models for the second. I like everything else and good job on 12 ppm it seems perfect. Because they're Hunters though maybe ld 7 makes more sense and have a 5 point upgrade to a huntsman that has ld 8.

Also for your amphibious special rule, rivers, lakes, and swamps or anything water related except ice or snow they have shrouded in and they are not slowed by it, also for purposes of assaulting their initiative is +1 when in those terrain.

I think the weapon upgrades are less important on them, as the special weapons are both short range weapons while the hunters are definitely a long range unit.

I think the Ld 8 is ok, hunters/snipers dont generally have less Ld as far as i know

how about not slowed by water terrain, 5+ cover save in it and count as having assault grenades when charging through water terrain?

Well I said that because people can spam them as a 5 model unit with two special weapons.

Well they are Hunters not battle trained soldiers am I right? So I think ld 7 fits then have 1 model be ld 8 as the huntsman, you don't need to pay 5 points it's just composition is 1 huntsman 4 Hunters up to 19 Hunters.

It's your army wide special rule, what I said in my earlier post is better then what you said but its up to you, water already usually gives 6+ cover with shrouded rule it would be 4+ cover and I think it makes more sense with the initiative thing because its their natural environment they move quickly within it, assault grenades I guess work out.

Definitely not what I expected.

The basic unit (Skinks) in Fantasy has this profile:

WS: 2 -> basic human level, low.
BS: 3 -> average. Trained human.
S: 3 -> average. Healhy human.
T: 2 -> low. They are weak. They are the size of a gretchin.
W: 1 -> standard.
I: 4 -> quite fast
A: 1 -> standard.
Ld: 6 -> low. They need support (or leaders) to work properly.

They are cheap, small, weak. Think of the Eldar Guardians, the human Conscript, the tyranid gaunt, the ork gretchin/boy. It is the basic model. Harassing unit, explorers, you throw these guys to the enemy to gain time or use them to capture strategic points.

You are making the basic unit of the species an elite unit. 12 pts is dangerously close to Marine territory. This is an entire species when even the weakest is nearly as powerful as a Space Marine. It is not cool.

Of course, it would depend on how close you want to stay to the Lizardmen. I would keep Nazak Hunters as Troops and move Korak Warriors to Elite.

About Echo Grenades: I don´t see any problem regarding losing overwatch. In most situations, overwatch is situational. In those that it actually matters (Tau, a unit that specializes in overwatching) provides a tactical problem. I would even be ok with an updated version: a skink like unit (cheap, fast, die quickly) with Echo Grenades that take out overwatch and take down the initiative and/or other attributes to 1. Thus you would get a unit that specializes in throwing grenades during the Shooting Phase, providing support for more powerful, assault oriented units.

About the army-wide rule. That´s complicated. Let me read the Lizardmen Armybook in search of inspiration. It has been a while... I do not even remember where I have the Armybook.

The water-thing is OK as you got it the first time. Situational, fluffy, it is fine. Keep it that way. Do not make it powerful or people will refuse to play you with that kind of terrain. You need another rule to really make a difference, but I suggest this rule to be something completely different.

Looking at the rules, i dont think rivers and lakes and such confer cover saves... I may have missed something though

true they could be spammed... i will change it to 1 per 5 men like the koraks.

i like the huntsman idea, i think that would work.

1 per five is worse since a 20 model squad gets 4 unless you mean you can only have 2 after you have 10 models that is better.

You may be right, I have always seen it and always played that lakes and rivers gave a 6+ cover, I skimmed through the rule book and could not confirm it, if that's the case then just confer a 5+ cover like you said.

Hi again.

In Warhammer Fantasy, the Lizardmen (7th edition) are defined by three army-wide rules:
1: Cold Blooded: for all Ld tests, you roll 3 dices and use the lowest two scores.
2: Aquatic: they treat marshes, rivers, lakes or any other such water features as open terrain. And they gain soft cover on them
3: Jungle Poisons: all shooting attacks have the poison rule.

But to get 4 special weapons you need 20 models, which will have significantly worse once they start moving.

 da001 wrote:
Hi again.

In Warhammer Fantasy, the Lizardmen (7th edition) are defined by three army-wide rules:
1: Cold Blooded: for all Ld tests, you roll 3 dices and use the lowest two scores.
2: Aquatic: they treat marshes, rivers, lakes or any other such water features as open terrain. And they gain soft cover on them
3: Jungle Poisons: all shooting attacks have the poison rule.

I think he should use the first two, the second one in 40k translation is "does not become slowed by"this type of terrain, and soft cover would turn into stealth I suppose but let's make it shrouded for +2 to a cover save.

Also 20 models with your 4 special weapon guys in the back will work a lot better then you think, I just don't agree that a hunter unit would utilize that many special weapons, that's why they are "special"because its usually a rare or very skillful weapon to use/maintain.

I dunno its up to you but I don't think it fits, if you really want try to make it 3 total but you need 6 models for 1st one 12 models for the second and 18 models for the third.

I could do 1 for every 6, tbh i doubt many people would use them. The nazak hunters become significantly worse on the move and both special weapons need to get close to the enemy.

I dont think the cold blooded rule is needed. I dont need to make this army EXACTLY like lizardmen and as creatures that often turn mercenary, i dont want them to be too stoic.


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Im not particularly bothered about staying close to the Lizardmen theme. i envision this army as a more brutish type of lizardman, and the nazak hunters are only really like skinks in that theyre hunters and are smaller than korak hunters

It's up to you, I like the direction you are headed.

As do I. You are creating something new.

However I think you should change the name of the thread, it is misleading. These are no longer "Lizardmen in space". Give this new faction a new name.

Unfortunately the thread isnt mine, i cant change it

2 days xP If everyone has stopped I won't bother changing the title :3

Well it's not that we stopped, I for one was waiting for you to respond and change the title lol

Start a new Thread Hive Fleet Fab.

That was around 3 pages just complaining about the random gun range..

And you can update new units in the first post that way.


-Dert

Everything is already on this page anyway, I'll change the title to 'Varks; a New 40k Army Idea'

Well the generic HQ I have is the Kuvuk chieftain:

WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 5
T: 5
W: 3
I: 4
A: 3
Ld: 10
Sv: 4+

Unit type: infantry

Wargear: Impact armour, close combat weapon, spine pistol.

Special rules: amphibian, independent character.

One Kuvuk chieftain may be upgraded to a grand elder for 25 points if so he gains +1 WS, BS and the stubborn special rule.

Thoughts?

That's really cool actually, he doesn't get an invulnerable, or a feel no pain, or eternal warrior? I love everything else its just without one of those abilities he can die easily.

Also I know at T5 he won't get instant death muched but still better then nothing else.

That is a Necron Overlord stat line with higher initiative and lower armour so not really anymore vulnerable to dying.

You are missing the Baseline Points.

I noticed every unit has a different [Race] [Class]

So is this meant to be a group of different Lizard species or one Lizard specimen?
Just a crazy thought, maybe give the larger lizard species an additional Bite attack at Ini 1


-Dert

Hi I've seen people arguing in here for quite a long time now.
Yes, your troops are fine stat-line and rule-wise, but the AP is a bit OP.
You should make a new page, and put your units in the first post. I'm interested in this thread
And one question: Is there a "Conscript"-like unit in your are my ? You know, low BS, WS, Ld and Sv and average S and T ?

The base points cost would be 70 points

This would just be a slightly larger korak warrior, like what a captain is to a space marine.

The AP isnt so powerful as people think. Necron immortals have weapons with AP4 and a higher strength than my troops at less points, but they arent particularly spammed or considered OP.

there is no conscript, i wanted them to be a pretty elite army

a possible 48'' str 5ap 3 weapon!! Even though its heavy still op make it 3d6+6 range if you want to keep the random range and make the weapon assault 1

Sigh... right, the final profile for the gun is

Range: 24" strength: 5 AP: 3 heavy 3

That is now changed. For definite

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
Sigh... right, the final profile for the gun is

Range: 24" strength: 5 AP: 3 heavy 3

That is now changed. For definite

You need to take constructive criticism, make it raid fire at most, its just too many shots for the basic gun in your army.

Its fine as i see it. Necron destroyers have the same gun with 1 less shot, but higher BS and preferred enemy, and so will deal more damage at range, for 20 points less.

destroyers are easier to take out and they have a str5 ap 3 assault2 24'' range gauss cannon with PE anyway they are not a troops choice,

An assault 2 weapon at BS4 with PE is better than a heavy 3 wepon at BS3. and my unit isnt a troops choice either.

actually with only 1 less toughness, one more leadership and the ability to get back up on a 5+ theyre about as tough.

thought they where troops? ok well the maybe keep them the same