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Whilst I like that, why should that be the only weapon that gets it?


I'm sure there are many other weapons that are more powerfull at close range than they are at long range.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Spine Guns (Range: D3+1x12" S5 AP3 heavy 3)

I'm confused, can someone please explain what is so scary about the range on these guns.

The possibility that they have a 60" threat range.

 Bloodhorror wrote:
The possibility that they have a 60" threat range.

How? D3+1x12 gives you a range of 13"-15".

According to my calculator (just to be safe haha) the range goes its either 24" 36" or 48". The range has to be one of those multiples of 12. Happy Jew i think your getting multiplication and addition mixed up. If it where a plus then you would be almost bang on. Unless im way wrong...

 Swastakowey wrote:
According to my calculator (just to be safe haha) the range goes its either 24" 36" or 48". The range has to be one of those multiples of 12. Happy Jew i think your getting multiplication and addition mixed up. If it where a plus then you would be almost bang on. Unless im way wrong...

Your calculator does not math properly. Multiplication then addition so D3+1*12" = D3+12" = 13"-15".

The below are the different rolls you can get with D3 + 1
2*12=24
3*12=36
4*12=48

 Swastakowey wrote:
The below are the different rolls you can get with D3 + 1
2*12=24
3*12=36
4*12=48

Except the range is D3+1*12.

Order of Operations (PEMDAS) - Parenthesis, Exponent, Multiply/Divide, Add/Subtract.

So first you multiply 1 by 12, then add D3

Yes but that is not what he meant i assure you. He put the dice roll first then he wants you to * the result buy 12. Technically you are right but im very certain thats not what was intended.

Ah, so it is supposed to be (D3+1)*12".

Well, that is a horse of a different colour.

Exactly, which is what i did on my calculator. But of course thats just me looking at it. He could come back and tell me he meant it as written. We will see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS i didnt need a calculator for this but i decided to just in case

If you pulled this on me in a friendly game I would be inclined to find another opponent. Homebrew rules aren't meant to allow you to mess with the balance of the game in this nature.

 Skabfang wrote:
If you pulled this on me in a friendly game I would be inclined to find another opponent. Homebrew rules aren't meant to allow you to mess with the balance of the game in this nature.

Or...you could post something productive and help balance it?

Gotta say, it's been said before and I'll say it again since you don't really seem to grasp the concept of High AP weapons. I pay points out of my butt to get my Vets up to 4+ armor, and points again for that holy BS 4. You said your basic troops are based off the IG right? Well, the basic troop is BS 3. They have a lot more S and T than a regular human, making them much more aggressive than an IG player, which I could understand. But to make them BS 4, would not only allow them to outshoot most people, outrange most basic infantry, but then beat the snot out of them in close combat. I really and truly don't know any other core troop in the game that can do all of that. But, with all that said, I would like to propose some new rules for them.

First, to build on ALEXisAWESOME's idea, how about make it Salvo instead of Rapid Fire? It's more of a fluff thing for me, because I can see the hulking Lizards having to stand still to fire the full power of these guns they are holding. I'd keep the rule on the +1 S -1 AP and maybe even make it an army wide ability? That'd be terribly unique, and would make positioning for this army very important, depending on your need for S or AP.

I'd like to point out my Loxatl where based on the Imperial Guard not his guys. I reckon the AP is fine, my Vet squad hug cover even with the 4+ because so much ignores it in the first place. Just change their BS to 3 and i reckon that's fine.

But i dont see a problem with it really. I mean the imperial guard nova cannon russ can ignore armour 4, instant kill and ignore covor of everything in the imperial guard yet no one complains and its probably cheaper. I see nothing wrong with this unit but id put the BS down to 3.

But an IG tank can go up in flames with a single lucky shot. And to be fair, not a whole lot goes through 4+. Most basic guns are AP 5, and dedicating AP 3 and lower guns to killing a Vet Squad is a waste of shots, which is why the 4+ is worth it. But perhaps you're right, and I might just be grumpy over my expensive point 4+ armor and don't want to see it go to waste.

But, that BS decrease is really needed. And sorry for the mix up on whose units were whose. That was my bad!

All good man but at the end of the day they dont ignore cover and with the bs3 they wont be getting too many hits. Plus they cost a ton of points from memory. So even if they kill a vet squad in a few turns you will have many more to deal with it (in theory anyways).

Like I said earlier, I really think it should be salvo 1/2 then it could be more doable, I don't see being BS 4 with such a primitive race though. Look at Tau they are highly advanced and are the most shooty race/codex in the game and their average guy is BS 3, it can be increased through marker lights but that makes sense for them. I mean if you are worried about amount of shots make it salvo 2/3 meaning if you stand still you can shoot 3 at max range of gun and if you move you can still shoot 2 at half max range.I got to be honest I never played a BS 3 army besides using scouts, I'm used to Eldar and marines. I know orks at BS 2 can do a lot more damage in shooting then people think, and I know that imperial guard put out to many shots that their BS 3 is irrelevant.

Seriously the best way to go is BS 3 salvo 2/3

 Swastakowey wrote:
Exactly, which is what i did on my calculator. But of course thats just me looking at it. He could come back and tell me he meant it as written. We will see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS i didnt need a calculator for this but i decided to just in case

By the way, it is (D3+1)*12 xD

im sorry but i have never said my guys are BS4? all my posted models so far have been BS3.

Personally i like the salvo with a constant S and AP, as i imagine these as hulking guns, probably with multiple barrels that would require the firer to stand still to fire.

Ok sorry about the mix up then, so yeah BS 3 with salvo 2/3 at 30"range is cool. You definitely can't do a str higher then 5 or an AP lower then 4 at best and even then I wouldn't recommend that for a basic troop, if it's thosefast attack jump pack guys it might be interesting since yes they can move 12"but in order to fire at the max range of 30 they need to stand still and to make it interesting make them a str 3 AP 4 gun and then give them a rule if the targets initiative is 4 or higher increase the str of gun by 1.

The current profile of the spine rifles (guns for the basic troops) is:

Range: 24" Strength: 4 AP: 4 Type: salvo 1/2

i think thats acceptable and fair

I would change back the Spine Rifle to rapid fire. Don´t see the point of a Salvo 1/2 weapon.

About Korak Warriors, the analysis by Blacksails is quite good. They are fine. The Thunderspear sounds good too.

I have two issues:
1: the Flesher is too powerful. I would pay 10 pts for it without a second thought, mostly because it is a BS3 model. The weapon is compensating the average BS. An AP3 flamer is always scary, even if it is S3. I would go for AP5 S4 or AP4 S3. If you want it AP3, let it be 15 pts or even 20 pts.
2: how it comes this is a Troop unit? The basic troop unit is usually below 10 pts. Marines are elite troopers, but you are talking about a race. Necrons is the only exception I can think of. To be clear: I am missing Skinks. I am ok with Korak warriors being a troop unit too, but the real basic unit, the first unit I think you should define and test and show to others, should be a Skink equivalent.

Another thing: have you thought of an army-wide special rule? That would help giving them a unique feeling. The "random range for most weapons" concept, as pointed by others, will annoy many players.

I do have another troop choice that is cheaper and less powerful than the korak warriors, i shall list their profile if you want?

I have decided, after much deliberation, to get rid of the random range as too many people were complaining about it. i was thinking a rule called "Amphibian" which means they move through water based terrain without penalty and are stubborn whilst in water based terrain? i thought its a characterful little rule that has little in game impacts.

As powerful as AP3 is if you compare its effectiveness against different troop units from a variety of armies, against a lot of them the 5 point flamer will do more damage, so i think for double the points, the flesher is better, and its a lot harder to spam than normal flamers.

Oh crap and they are relentless?a fast attack relentless salvo or heavy is pretty op even for an elite or fast option.Of course list the other unit profile and yeah a 24 inch salvo 1/2 is what rapid fire used to be before 6th, I said salvo 1/2 earlier when I was thinking it was a 30"range weapon. At 24"it is better at rapid fire or salvo 2/3.

Ok I have a question do these guys still have the jump packs?

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
I do have another troop choice that is cheaper and less powerful than the korak warriors, i shall list their profile if you want?

Yes please.

I have decided, after much deliberation, to get rid of the random range as too many people were complaining about it. i was thinking a rule called "Amphibian" which means they move through water based terrain without penalty and are stubborn whilst in water based terrain? i thought its a characterful little rule that has little in game impacts.

The "random range" rage is expected. A lot of people is upset because the amount of random stuff in 6th edition. Playing Daemons or psyker-spam Tyranids is a pain.

Your army-wide rule sounds cool BUT has too little effect. It is fluffy (means "good"), but need something else. Something that has an effect in-game while not being too powerful. This is difficult, but it is the thing that would define your army. It doesn´t need to be a Special Rule, your random range would have been a cool idea in other edition.

As powerful as AP3 is if you compare its effectiveness against different troop units from a variety of armies, against a lot of them the 5 point flamer will do more damage, so i think for double the points, the flesher is better, and its a lot harder to spam than normal flamers.

Perhaps. That would depend of the rest of the army. However, an AP3 cheap flamer is scary for most opponents, it is the kind of think that I look for when I am searching for overpowered things.

One more thing: I am surprised nobody has mentioned it, but there were Lizardmen in W40K, with rules and models and everything. They were called Slann.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Slann#.UntrOfnTvTo

There were many factions in the setting before it turned into a Marine fest.

I hadnt seen the slann before but i do remember the picture from the 4 ed rulebook.

how powerful would you make the rule? a cover save in water? fearless in water? id like to keep it based around water features to keep it fluffy and situational.

Apart from fleshers and thunderspears, there will be little ranged low AP weapons in the rest of the army, minus some specialist troops. And the fleshers cost the same as a meltagun, which is a superb anti tank weapon at around the same range.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
the other troop choice are Nazak hunters. these would be the hunters in vark society, but would be called upon in war to fight.

12 ppm

WS: 3
BS: 3
S: 4
T: 4
W: 1
I: 3
A: 1
Ld: 8
Sv: 4+

Composition: 5-20 Nazak hunters
Unit type: infantry
Wargear: Impact armour, Spiker
Special rules: amphibian, natural sniper
Options: up to two models may exchange their Spikers for one of the following:
- Flesher, 10 points
- Thunderspear, 10 points
one model may exchange their Spiker for one of the following:
- Heavy Spiker, 20 points
the whole squad may take echo grenades for 10pts.

spikers are weapons that shoot a salvo of short spikes that once imbedded in the opponent will burn up, and reduce the victims inards to a molten slag:
range: 24" strength: 4 AP: 6 type: salvo 1/2, cauterise

cauterise: no hull points or wounds inflicted by this weapon may be regenerated through the It Will Not Die special rule

Natural sniper: Many Vark can aim with extreme accurately with their weapons if positioned properly. Any model with this rule will gain +1 BS in the shooting phase if they didn't move in the movement phase.

Really awesome, I see a lot of distinction here. For the weapon upgrades though I would say you need a minimum of 10 for the first upgrade and then 15 models for the second. I like everything else and good job on 12 ppm it seems perfect. Because they're Hunters though maybe ld 7 makes more sense and have a 5 point upgrade to a huntsman that has ld 8.

Also for your amphibious special rule, rivers, lakes, and swamps or anything water related except ice or snow they have shrouded in and they are not slowed by it, also for purposes of assaulting their initiative is +1 when in those terrain.

I think the weapon upgrades are less important on them, as the special weapons are both short range weapons while the hunters are definitely a long range unit.

I think the Ld 8 is ok, hunters/snipers dont generally have less Ld as far as i know

how about not slowed by water terrain, 5+ cover save in it and count as having assault grenades when charging through water terrain?

Well I said that because people can spam them as a 5 model unit with two special weapons.

Well they are Hunters not battle trained soldiers am I right? So I think ld 7 fits then have 1 model be ld 8 as the huntsman, you don't need to pay 5 points it's just composition is 1 huntsman 4 Hunters up to 19 Hunters.

It's your army wide special rule, what I said in my earlier post is better then what you said but its up to you, water already usually gives 6+ cover with shrouded rule it would be 4+ cover and I think it makes more sense with the initiative thing because its their natural environment they move quickly within it, assault grenades I guess work out.