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So my friend is making a Lizardmen in Space army (see errata: Necrons xD) and they're called Varks, this was originally going to be a post to figure out of his Korak Troopers were OP, but it has slowly evolved into a C&C army thing, so I'll leave it at that.
His (original, I'm not sure how many canges have been made to this statline and pts cost etc.) proposed unit for Fast Attack is:
Korak Tooper
Unit Type: Jump Pack Infantry
WS3 BS3 S6 T6 W1 I3 A2 Ld9 3+
-Can be taken in units of 1-8 at 43ppm
-Any model in the unit can take Pressure Claws in stead of Spine Guns for free (S+1 AP4 Melee, Collapse) Collapse: On a roll of a 6 to hit the hit becomes AP1
-The entire squad can take Echo Grenades for 20pts (On an assault, the opposing squad can not fire any Overwatch shots)

Equipment:
Jump Packs
Spine Guns (Range: D3+1x12" S5 AP3 heavy 3)
Close Combat Weapon
Amphibian (Water does not count as difficult or dangerous terrain)

Special Rules:
Jump Pack Infantry
Relentless

those jump infintry have quite great guns.... a possible 48" range? looks like a super dark reaper unit to me.

You know, I was thinking how complicated I could make a basic gun, but this wins. So every time you shoot, you roll a D3+1x12"...oh wow that's awful.

Just pick a range. It looks overpowered with the combinations of possible AP1, no overwatch from grenades, and T6. I'll come back later and decide.

He says the random range for the guns isn't overcomplication, it's an army trait, as most of the guns in his army roll for a random range

thats pretty complicated.....

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
He says the random range for the guns isn't overcomplication, it's an army trait, as most of the guns in his army roll for a random range

Sorry, but that's just poor design as far as I'm concerned. It slows down the game needlessly, confuses opponents every time they ask for the range of their gun, and it feels like a bit of a cop out of just picking a range for the gun.

Right now, its a minimum 24" gun, but can go up to 48", and will reliably hit 36" more often than not.

If someone showed me these rules in person, I'd tell them to pick a range.

 Blacksails wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
He says the random range for the guns isn't overcomplication, it's an army trait, as most of the guns in his army roll for a random range

Sorry, but that's just poor design as far as I'm concerned. It slows down the game needlessly, confuses opponents every time they ask for the range of their gun, and it feels like a bit of a cop out of just picking a range for the gun.

Right now, its a minimum 24" gun, but can go up to 48", and will reliably hit 36" more often than not.

If someone showed me these rules in person, I'd tell them to pick a range.

He says it's similar to a weapon having a random Str, AP value or shots (like Lootas), and it's only one more roll

i dont think it would slow the game down, its only one extra roll per unit and it would add a bit more more uncertainty to the game, they could be 48" or it could be a pitiful 24". its no different that a gun with random AP or number of shots.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
i dont think it would slow the game down, its only one extra roll per unit and it would add a bit more more uncertainty to the game, they could be 48" or it could be a pitiful 24". its no different that a gun with random AP or number of shots.

This is him :3

Except every gun would have this. Random shots/ap/strength are generally restricted to one or two units per army. If this his 'theme', it would slow the game down unnecessarily when picking a range would be far simpler and easier to balance.

Yes, but its more original, only one extra roll per unit wont slow the game down that much, no more than every grey knight unit making a psychic test every turn

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
Yes, but its more original, only one extra roll per unit wont slow the game down that much, no more than every grey knight unit making a psychic test every turn

Original? How?

Random anything isn't original. The theme of 6th has been to increase the randomness and number of random rolls required.

I strongly think the game needs to move away from that.

The army is not predominantly random, and has no random tables or anything else that is rolled for randomly. I would agree too much randomness is bad, but that is basically the only random factor in the army, beyond the normal random effects of the game

Then my question is; why include even that?

What does this random mechanic actually add? Would it be functionally the same to use the statistical average? Would the army work the same? Would be it be simpler? Does it remove the feel of the army?

Honestly, it doesn't add anything to the army. If anything, its a sticking point. When doing custom anything, its always best to be simple and clear, and randomness only complicates. Besides, its infinitely easier to balance a fixed number, especially if its your basic troop's gun.

Just ask yourself; would the army still the same if this random mechanic was removed?

I just like it, as im not totally opposed to randomness in the game. Its the staple weapon of the army and the chance of a low range helps compensate for the power of some of the guns.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
I just like it, as im not totally opposed to randomness in the game. Its the staple weapon of the army and the chance of a low range helps compensate for the power of some of the guns.

Right, but the chance for the low range actually counteracts the chance for a long range, not the power of the gun.

Yes, but rolling a short range will generally hurt more than the benefits of rolling a long range, which be more of a situational advantage.

Horrific to play with as well.

If you PLAN to to be in 36" and be able to shoot and you get the wrong Range, your fethed.

Original = unique to some degree.
There is a reason that things are not done alot of the time.

Average range is 36" on a S5, AP3 gun with 3 shots.
Which is carried by a S6 jump infantry model with 4 attacks on the charge.
Or, it can swap that gun for S7 attacks at AP4, which with your collapse rule allow it to chew through infantry and vehicles with ease.
And ontop of that, you cant overwatch them.

On the plus side, they have no save, so its easy enough to shoot them to death on turn 1.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
Yes, but rolling a short range will generally hurt more than the benefits of rolling a long range, which be more of a situational advantage.

No, not really. They're both equal disadvantages and advantages. Positioning would play a greater role.

But this is also showing how randomness is difficult to balance. Especially in a new race development.

 Jackal wrote:
Original = unique to some degree.
There is a reason that things are not done alot of the time.

Average range is 36" on a S5, AP3 gun with 3 shots.
Which is carried by a S6 jump infantry model with 4 attacks on the charge.
Or, it can swap that gun for S7 attacks at AP4, which with your collapse rule allow it to chew through infantry and vehicles with ease.
And ontop of that, you cant overwatch them.

On the plus side, they have no save, so its easy enough to shoot them to death on turn 1.

Apologies, forgot to include they have a 3+ armour save

What Bloodhorror said, if you were planning to be in range of something and you roll short, then thats a big disadvantage, ill admit its not tactically perfect, but its no different to random charge ranges or running. I think my army needs a bit of randomness and i think its a nice little rule that hasnt been done before.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
What Bloodhorror said, if you were planning to be in range of something and you roll short, then thats a big disadvantage, ill admit its not tactically perfect, but its no different to random charge ranges or running. I think my army needs a bit of randomness and i think its a nice little rule that hasnt been done before.

But planning to be at max range and rolling it is a significant advantage.

But if you planning at max range the chances are you wont roll it and will have lost that units shooting for a whole turn.

So they have a marines save.
A weapon which outranges most guns, then strips armour better than 95% of other guns.
They are jump infantry.
Oh, and they have the same stats as a tyranid mawloc, minus the wounds.

You have made a single wound MC, thrown an amazing gun on it, given it great mobility and the ability to be taken in units of up to 8.
Sometimes even points cant level out a model to the point its useable in a game.

Yeah.

Overpowered to hell.

 Jackal wrote:
So they have a marines save.
A weapon which outranges most guns, then strips armour better than 95% of other guns.
They are jump infantry.
Oh, and they have the same stats as a tyranid mawloc, minus the wounds.

You have made a single wound MC, thrown an amazing gun on it, given it great mobility and the ability to be taken in units of up to 8.
Sometimes even points cant level out a model to the point its useable in a game.

Castellax Battle Automata xD
Nuff said methinks, 85pts for a T7 MC with 4 wounds and an AP3 heavy bolter (basically the Spine gun with a 24" range)

But not Jump infantry, in units of 8 or a 36" range.

AND That's not 40k. That's in 30k where things are considerably more silly.

Keep the stats as they are. but make it 80 points per model with 2 wounds each and a unit size of 1-3

And the weapon stats at 12"

Theyre not an MC, they dont have AP 2 in combat and to get the combat weapon requires them to give up their shooting. I will concede that the shooting may be slightly under costed, however

And thats a FW units for 30k is it not?
A game which also lets you use primarchs.
So it has basically the same gun, but only 33% of the time, 66% of the time its range goes up another 50%-100%
Its also double the points, slower, and how many attacks does it have?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They are S6, T6 with 4 attacks fab, how many dedicated combat units in 40k do you know with that?