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Thankyou they have got options for a special weapon per 5 guys but i didnt put it in, i didnt want to complicate the analysis too much or overload anyone with info

They can take a thunderspear or flesher per 5 models for 10 points each.

flesher is
range: template S: 3 AP: 3 assault 1

Thunderspear is
range: 12" S10 AP: 1 assault 1, one shot

I like what you have mostly so far but people do have a point about the AP thing, instead of rapid fire make them salvo 1/2 and that might change the play style a little bit and if you're tired of everything being Bolter related make it assault 1 with AP 5 or 6. I like your special weapons but that flamer type can be amazing since you can have 4 in a max squad and it's AP 3 it's going to do some damage.

For 4 of the flamer types you'd need 20 modes in the unit, which means 440 points for the ability to take 4 flamers, which are still only S3.

Will a transport be made available for these?

I'll reserve my full judgement after that answer.

Yes, but its expensive. working on the lizardmen theme, the transport is a massive broad-stanced lizrd creature that carries warriors on its back. it would be 80 points

Ok you are right that the point cost is high and yeah it's strength 3 but it auto hits and is AP 3 and because it's a flame template it ignores cover out of 4 of them let's average poorly because of range and you get 2 with each one so it's 8 auto hits and against your average guyyou will use these on you wound on 5's I have seen people make 8 5+ wounds.

But compared to the average flamer, it cost twice as much and has 1 less strength. yes its better against MEQ but its worse against hordes and weaker troops. against, say, daemons or guard, the flamer is better for less points, so id say it balances out.

Why are these creatures vastly superior to space marines?

They're fething lizards man. They should not be 20ppm and they should not be better than marines.

And yes, all spines are the same. If they shoot spines, use preexisting rules for spine guns as a base. It goes a long way towards de-sueing your random fluff-less ultrapowerful lizard dudes.

Edit: Just saw the 10 point AP3 flamer.

These lizards are massive hulking creatures that would dwarf a space marine. There are plenty of creatures out there that are bigger and better than space marines, some of which are troops.

Just because a weapon shares a name the profile doesnt need to be the same? The Nids also have stinger salvos and the dark eldar have stinger pods, but they have totally different profiles. the Tyranid spines are organic and would be grown inside the Tyranid creatures. the spines fired by these models would be either metal or grown by the Vark, nothing to do with the Tyranids what so ever.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
These lizards are massive hulking creatures that would dwarf a space marine. There are plenty of creatures out there that are bigger and better than space marines, some of which are troops.

You do realize that Space Marines are supposed to be roughly seven foot tall, genetically enhanced humans (with extra organs to boot), don't you? They're also then equipped with some of the most powerful armor and deadliest weaponry the Imperium has to offer. A boltgun fires miniature self-propelled rockets, but it's only AP 5. What is a Spine Gun firing that has better penetration than a Boltgun? I don't really see how it makes any sense, even for a game where rule abstractedness is quite common.

Tyranid warriors seem like they would be the most similarly sized unit currently in the game to them, and (despite having extra wounds) are a full point of Strength and Toughness lower. So I suppose what I'm asking is: how big are these things, and what base size to you plan to put them on? Because as it stands, even for a single wound model, they've got to be pretty large.

Your really missing the point that everyone is trying to bring to you here.
AP really does matter on a weapon.

What AP3 flame template weapons can you list?
I can think of the flamestorm, but thats mounted on land raiders and baal preds.

You seem to have this image that doubling the points or adding a bit more makes a stupidly strong weapons fine.
And no matter what people say, you keep trying to use the same point to justify it.

S and T on a model really do matter.
As does AP on a weapon.

You dont have to give models super stats and weapons, people do that all the time which is why others give up on it.
If you want to make things balanced, stick with comparing to basic weapons that are common place.

Flamer - S4, AP5
It works and always has done.
If you want to make it better, make it S5, AP5.

Dropping the AP of a flamer by 2 and the S by 1 does not equal double points.
I'd happily pay 20 points for AP3 flame weapons all day long.



You need to listen more to what people say because certain points have been repeated over and over.



Edit:

Thunderspear is
range: 12" S10 AP: 1 assault 1, one shot

This one is better!
High str and AP, but lacks range and single use on a BS3 model means its only going to hit half of the time.

That is the sort of counter balance and drawbacks you need with most of this stuff.

i think the troop choices are fine. they might have high strength and toughness but if you look back they were compared to spaces marines, and arent much better.

The flamer is high AP and i know that matters, but from what youre saying high AP weapons seem to be only mounted on tanks or super models. High AP isnt that hard to come by, and nearly every army has an option to take it in their regular troops. the only models that my flamer is more effective against is MEQs, and though there are a lot of MEQ armies, there are also a lot of other armies, against which this flamer would be horrifically over costed.

points are being made and im responding to them, and im not making these models super. i just dont want to reinvent the space marine by using things that are already in the game.

Try looking at the wraith guard lists. for 10 points they have access to S4 AP1, instant death and auto penetration on roll of 6 flamers. Id argue yours being double that is very expensive. but it depends on the model weilding it.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
High AP isnt that hard to come by, and nearly every army has an option to take it in their regular troops.

I refer you to Tyranids and Orks.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
points are being made and im responding to them, and im not making these models super. i just dont want to reinvent the space marine by using things that are already in the game

But you are making them Super. Your units are outranging Space Marines, are harder to shift and just plain stupid.


Either start listening to peoples advice and take peoples points on board, or stop trying to justify the absurd level of bs you are posting

Rant Over...

AP 3 flamer is fine with me, Its the exact same as the Incubi Klaivex's Blood Stone, and NO ONE uses that. What's not OK with AP 4 base weapons when you have such a high range. How about you go down to 18ppm and add serrated spines as a 20pt upgrade to grant AP 4, still works out as 20ppm in a 10 man unit and it gives you more options to work with, say if you live in a MEQ heavy environment.

Daemon hunters
Space marines
Chaos space marines
Sisters of battle
Tau
Most eldar aspect lists
Necrons

All of those die easier to that flamer. (possibly some ive missed too)
Which is a bit more than just marines.
The heavier flame weapons are all hull mounted weapons on tanks, so not easily available in mass.
These flamers are even stronger than a flamer of tzeentch, which is alot more expensive and on a weaker model.

You also need to take into account that flamers have 2 very big advantages.
1: No cover against them, so you have to rely on saves.
This is why flame weapons are rarely better than AP5.
2: BS means nothing.
You said the normal guns are fine because of low BS, in this case, that means nothing since they auto-hit.


Your missing the point.
No one wants you to re-invent marines since lizards are great and a really good concept for an army.
But every army follows a base structure for weapons, stats and wargear that compared to each army, comes out similar.

You need to flick through a few codex books and see how they have balanced things, because upping the points really is no way to balance something.




Edit:

My biggest point really is that your simply cherry picking stats for weapons and models.
You cant simply pick the best possible stat and apply it because the model is a little more expensive
For balance, a weapon or model needs a drawback and every weapon / model has that.
By removing that balance, it just gives you a super unit.

Look at helldraiks for example.
Fast, hard to hit and that flamer is a real bastard.
Look at the issues it causes with people on dakka with how strong they think it is.
Thats what happens when you start applying alot more strengths to a model than weaknesses.



Also, i'd be interested to see what ideas you have for a tank hunting unit in your army.

id be ok to drop the range to 24". with salvo the unit would be able to fire their AP4 weapons but it means they wouldnt be taking advantage of their high strength and attacks.

they arent harder to shift actually, they are about as hard to kill as space marines and have worse leadership and no ATSKNF, not to mention costing more!

i think some people want these to be under powered, which is quite understandable as theyre a new unit, but some of these need to be worth taking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
my units do have weaknesses, the low S of the flamer, the low WS and BS of the lizards, their high points cost (which i know i go on about but it is a big factor) and the salvo, as i am taking points into account and changing the models. the thunderspear may be a bit under powered, just compare it to the meltagun and consider that is usually on a BS 4 model.

Your really not listening to the points made.
People dont want them under powered.
They want to help you bring them to a playable level.

The guns for example:

The range is in line with tau - An army that specialises in shooting, and the only one to have 30" guns on basic troops.
They also cant fight.

Salvo weapons: Really only noise marines that spring to mind on this one and its not really a big deal, salvo works pretty well.

AP4 shooting - no basic army has this in their common place troops.

So you have a high ranged, good rate of fire weapon that chews through armour better than every other basic weapon.

See the point here?
Models and weapons need a drawback.

Tau vespid have AP3 weapons, but very short range to compensate.
They are also carried by very fragile models.


So no, moving a marine is alot easier since these can outshoot them, the extra toughness really makes them solid.

What we really need is for you to post a model/unit from HQ, Elite, Troops, fast attack and heavy support.
Atleast then we can get some ideaof how it will shape as an army.

All we know at this stage is that they are krox sized (which isnt alot bigger than a marine looking at the ones on my shelf)
And the 2 units posted.

my units do have weaknesses, the low S of the flamer, the low WS and BS of the lizards, their high points cost (which i know i go on about but it is a big factor) and the salvo, as i am taking points into account and changing the models. the thunderspear may be a bit under powered, just compare it to the meltagun and consider that is usually on a BS 4 model

Those stats are not low though, they are average stats for models.
Now your comparing them to marines.
High points does not balance a model.
Salvo is not a weakness for anyone 0_o
Yes, lets compare it to a melta gun.
What S is it again? (8)
And again, your comparing them to marines.
Guard make use of more melta than marines do, and thats on BS3, T3 models with pretty much no save.

Ill admit i havnt seen the krox models and have been trying to get hold of some off my friend, ill judge size then.

Ive conceded to bring the weapon down to 24" range, which is fine, but you cant just look at eh gun in isolation, theyre on a BS3 model and unlike tau these guys cant take markerlights to make them more accurate as well as only putting out half the shots for the same points. AP 4 is only better against units with a 4+ armour save. Otherwise bolters are just as good and pulse rifles better, and with salvo, if these guys want 2 shots each they wont be able to move, limiting that unit a lot.

And they have less armour than SMs. it takes 6 bolter hits to kill a SM and it takes the same number to kill on of the Lizard guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
thats because they seem closest to marines statwise.

Good tip, try for your life to get the metal ones.
I have 12 finecast ones and they really are a mess. (was from 4 different orders)
Bad moulds i think, not to mention dodgy pouring areas on delicate chains and weapon handles.

Ok, so you want it to be better than other weapons?
Markerlights mean dedicating another unit to helping them out, which brings points up alot, so instead of 12 models shooting, you now have 12 models shooting while 6-12 more aim at them and dont do any damage.
Salvo does limit movement, but so does rapid fire.
You seem to forget that BS is not a common thing for most army.
BS3 is the common average through armies, dropping down to 2 for orks (which have an 18", S4, AP5 weapon with assault 2)
So low stats on everything for them, but for 2 shots (that only 1/3 shots will hit)

You complaining about not wanting people to compare them to marines as a base, but your doing the same.

You either need to move away from the marine idea as a whole or go more in depth with it.

Yes, they have lower WS than a marine, but in combat, that really wont make any difference.
The added S and attacks will though.
It also means that even your most basic troops can hunt armour.



So whats your take on a lizard anti-tank unit?

somene did some maths for them and they were only marginally better than marines at range and in combat. i have no problem with people comparing them to marines now, as they are quite similar with all the changes.

most armies seem to have BS4 now, guard dont and tau dont (though i believe tau units can now use their units own markerlights) and orks have BS2 but they have 2 S4 shots at 6 points a model with the ability to charge after, and no matter what you might say, points do matter!

and i am hoping to take a look at some friends models when he brings them in, and i think his are metal.

oh and salvo is more restricting for movement than rapidfire, you can move and longshot with rapidfire, not so with salvo

I really do suggest that you read a few codex for other armies, since BS4 is not the average by any means.
Its just most common because marine orientated armies are very popular compared to other armies.
Ie: Marine players outweigh most other armies by quite a bit.

The only tau unit that can use its own markerlight is the skyray, which is a missile tank.

Your right, points do matter.
But creating a super unit and adding on a few points does not create any form of balance what so ever.

Orks are also S3, T4, have a save thats stripped by any weapon with an AP value, the list goes on.
Also, the ork shoota may have 2 shots, but 30 boyz (180 points) will only hit with 20 shots, which average 10 wounds on normal models before saves.

Yes people still take sluggas and choppas because of the +1 attack in combat since they will get more use from it.



Your comparisons are miles off with most things and you justify your points based on pretty much nothing except you want to do it, so i agree with blood on this one.
Its pointless trying to actually show someone valid points when they arent willing to listen to anything except their own posts.
Enjoy

Wraithguard are a base 32 point model and come with a str 10 AP 2 gun at 12 range, to upgrade to a d-scythe gun it's 10 points per model and it is str 4 AP 2 flame template with instant death rule on 6's and auto penetrating hit on 6. So think about that.

Dat Guy wrote:
Wraithguard are a base 32 point model and come with a str 10 AP 2 gun at 12 range, to upgrade to a d-scythe gun it's 10 points per model and it is str 4 AP 2 flame template with instant death rule on 6's and auto penetrating hit on 6. So think about that.

This guy is correct, i didnt have my codex on hand so sorry for the misinformation. Thanks man

Your welcome, but I didn't post it on purpose for that reason lol I just now saw your post about it, it's all good at least it makes you normal and me a nerd because I knew it off the top of my head haha

to jackal, i am listening to peoples post and i am happy to make adjustments on my units, but telling theyre way OP when in actual fact they arent isnt really helping, but you are welcome to stop posting if you think im being stubborn

the wraithguard are a good example and are quite similar to these lizard people due to high S T but average WS BS and I (i think)

also, bear in mind that as all of the models will have salvo weapons, none of them will get overwatch.

You seem to be under the common misconception that Bs 4 is average. Bs 4 is meant to represent the abilities of people who have trained in range combat for years in gruelling wars (Veterans) and is the pinnacle most un-enhanced humans can get to. Otherwise it represents super-human aim, either through alien reflexes or bodily enhancements.

Bs 3 is a 'normal' human soldier who is trained for war. An average civilian would be Bs 2, Bs 3 represents knowing how to fire a gun and hit a target at 100m-ish, could you do that consistently? It might help if you explained what these guys are, rather then just throwing rules at us. For example I simply can't understand what justifies those spines to fire so far and punch through high quality armour (4+ represents very good armour, a 3+ almost impervious to small arms fire) like it was nothing. Make your rules around your fluff, not the other way round.

they are among the races created by the old ones, and are a large race of lizard creatures, that utilize their own technology that mainly consists of weapons firing solid metal projectiles. they have about the same skill level as the IG and these korak warriors are the standing soldiers of the race. many vark will also sell their skill at arms and strength as mercenaries.

you may have a point with the spine rifle but the spines fired would be very thin and would impact on a sharpened point (like armour piercing rounds) and be fired at high speeds and hit a very small surface area

Going well?

Oh, so...just like any other solid-slug weapon? You need to understand what you want these guys to do. Are they back field campers, mid field players or do they advance aggressively. Judging solely on the fact these guys are based on Lizardmen Saurus/Krox I'd say they should be aggressive units. You have the right stat-line, maybe a few points to expensive, but that's fine. They should have that cold blooded rule to make up for lack of access to fearless/ATSKNF. How about, to put them firmly into the position as this armies aggressive objective takers you give them a unique weapon, a 24'' spike rifle Str 3 Ap 5 rapid fire. But the catch is that when within half range, they gain +1 strength and -1 Ap, making them preform very well at that 12'' range. Pistols could do the same but at range 12 with extra strength at 6''. This would represent that the spines lose power over long distances, but at short range they are strong enough to punch through armour. Thoughts?