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The gun is not as OP as you make it out. A heavy bolter with +1 AP is not going to kill everything, esspecially with all the cover available now a days.

Yeah, but 8 guys that can move 12" a turn and get 24" - 48" worth of Range its a little daft.

Heavy Bolter Squads would have to move forward to combat them, thus forcing snapshots (assuming not relentless or S&P) and making them get owned even more.

Whats the best average save around the board?
The gun removes it completely.

AP3 is used either on short ranged units for hunting armoured targets (vespid weapons)
Or on long ranged anti-tank weapons.
And both are usually single shot.

None have the ability of range, low AP and high fire rate.


Find me a unit in 40k that compares to this unit.

The squad size is easily remedied. I wouldnt have a problem shifting that to a 3 or 4 model limit.

not 3 or 4.

3.

A unit of 3 for 240 points is fine.

24" range on the weapons as well.


Alternatively, make the shot d3+1

dark reapers, disintegrator cannons, chem cannons, plasma rifles, all of these are anti infantry high AP weapons


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If people think the random range is unacceptable, then im not about to make the shots random as well

Reapers - Look at the models costs and its stats.
Dis cannons - Range, and availability.
Chem - Its on a tank.
Plasma rifles - Low range and fire rate and again, availability.

Thats 1 unit you posted so far which is nothing like the one here.
The rest were weapons which were either vehicle mounted or available in small quantities.

I sent him this: Black Woman in Hindsight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AajslFuPro
This is essentially what I want to say, summed up in a video xD

No I mean make the shots D3+1 and the range 24" flat.

i dont see how those weapons are any less avaidable than mine, and the disintegrator cannon, is on a fast skimmer, has 3 shots and even better AP i believe


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I want to keep the random range, but i could bring it down to D3x12" perhaps? ( whch is the statistical equivalent of 24")

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
i dont see how those weapons are any less avaidable than mine, and the disintegrator cannon, is on a fast skimmer, has 3 shots and even better AP i believe

But can it be taken in squads of 8, is it S6 T6 and is it 43pts?

and probably a rise in points cost



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So, if i take the maximum squad size down to 3, make the range of the guns D3x12" and rise the price to 52 points a model, would that be acceptable?

And how many of those skimmers can you take in a unit and for what cost?
And if you cant see the difference between a vehicle mounted weapon and an infantry carried weapon, there is an issue somewhere.

The weapons you mentioned are good, but fall short in 1 catagory or more.
Mainly the availability of them.
They are strong, and being able to field the weapons in large quantities does not happen in 40k.

I give up... Proposed rules is not a place for rational discussion.

I'm out.

If the price was to rise to 60 ppm, reduced range and a minimum squad size of 3, would that be better?
The price has almost doubled but i will agree now that shooty S:6 jump infantry are quite powerful, but i like their ranged aspect and the gun, and it makes sense for them to be high strength and jump infantry too, so a raised points cost is the best way to go i think. Would you agree?

I agree with bloodhorror on this one, im out.

Seconding the why bother with random range thing.

And in addition to that, why give them "super rending" when they could just be "rending"?

Because what there weapon does isnt really rending, and it is better, with their low WS theyre going to roll a lot more to hit than to wound

My thoughts:

1. Make the range a short-mid fixed number i.e. 18" or 24" (with Relentless and Jump Packs they will still be firing 30-36")

2. Why do they need to be T6? I don't remember humanoid sized Lizards in WFB being T6. T4 or T5 at the maximum for a unit, especially if you want to keep the 3+ armour save. I would recommend T5 with a 4+ save. These guys are Lizards not Space Marines.

3. Strength 6? Sorry no, no model that isn't a monstrous creature or carrying a special melee weapon should have S6. The average for a humanoid is 3 so let's be generous and say 4.

4. Echo Grenades - make it so that the target has to take an LD test to fire overwatch (Fearless units immune). I don't like the idea of my overwatch being instantly negated.

Yes, I know that CSM have this with their dirge casters, but it is mounted on a flimsy av11 vehicle most of the time that the unit cannot charge out of, not on a unit of sturdy jump packers that can pack nasty cc weapons.

5. Pressure Claws - Make them base strength and ap - . There are at least 4 rending combat weapons that already exist (Harlequins Kiss, Shard of Anaris, Rending Claws, Void Blades) and none of them have base AP. Also change the Collapse rule to Rending. Homebrew rules work best with as few made up rules as possible IMO, especially when there is a suitable rule that already exists.

I would also consider making them Specialist Weapons (so no + 1 attack for 2 weapons) or Unwieldy as they are a free upgrade.

6. Smaller max unit size. I would say 3-5 at the very most, possibly even 1-3.

Sorry if it seems like I am picking apart your entire unit, but that is kind of what you asked for isn't it?

With these changes I would say they should be costed at around 40-45 pts.

2. These are not average humanoid lizardmen, these are kroxigor sized models that also wear big metal suits that would be bolstering their strength considerably. I would see the model as having strength and toughness 5 and then getting +1 strength and toughness thanks to their enhanced armour frame.
4. With the echo grenades, the chaos upgrade is only 5 points and they can take it on all their vehicles, and the only unit it would have major effects on are units with a psyker and divination with foreboding, flamer units and tau, otherwise overwatch is generally just a rare chance to deal a couple of wounds if youre lucky.
5. the weapon has to be worth swapping out the gun for and i dont think anyone would be willing to exchange a S5 AP3 gun for rending in combat. and both voidblades and shard of anaris have additional rules.
6. i would agree a smaller squad size is needed. i would go with 1-3.
i think at 40-45 points these are not nearly points worthy, as for the same cost as a terminator they are too easy to kill and dont even deal that much damage, but i do apreciete the feedback, thankyou

Okay, I've had my moment of 'lolwut', now I'll actually sit down and see if this can go anywhere productive.

First things first; give us at least one, if not two or three of your basic troops choices. These are the core of your army and will go a long way to helping us determine how the rest of the army will balance out. Ideally, any army wide USRs should be posted now too.

I agree, this is a look over rules for one unit in an army that hasnt been peer assessed yet. it would probably be best to start a new post with army wide rules and basic troop choices.

 hive fleet fabulous wrote:
I agree, this is a look over rules for one unit in an army that hasnt been peer assessed yet. it would probably be best to start a new post with army wide rules and basic troop choices.

No need, just start here, or edit the first post.

*I'm an idiot, you didn't start the thread.

I like the over all idea, I like the new race and the concept of this unit. I understand what you're trying to do and where you are going with this gun. People are upset about the range because its with a tough unit that is mobile. Yeah its a randomized gun range but all it takes is that at least 42"roll and you covered practically the whole field with a strong gun.make it a range of 24" or have it 18" +2d6 range for a max of 30 if you really want to add that guess shooting in.

It is a nice unit but the long range chance vs the short range chance is more over powered because they are fast moving and even after turn 1 they will have good range with a minimum of 24" especially if you go second. I think the 18+2d6"range is your better bet

If you do it that way I think the points are pretty good then.

5. Pressure Claws - Make them base strength and ap - . There are at least 4 rending combat weapons that already exist (Harlequins Kiss, Shard of Anaris, Rending Claws, Void Blades) and none of them have base AP. Also change the Collapse rule to Rending. Homebrew rules work best with as few made up rules as possible IMO, especially when there is a suitable rule that already exists

So much this.

Kroxigor sized models etc

Should make stuff like this clearer from the get go.

In this case, I'd be more inclined to use Nobs as a base. Big & dumb, 2 wounds and T4-T5 but worse armour, crappy BS but rather killy up close. Dunno about Jump Troops for such big models.

There are lizard people in 40k already. Name escapes me. But they have shotguns mounted on their backs or chest, climb vertical surfaces, are quite stealthy and smell horribly rancid. I'dwwork with that as a bases and look into making them more of a short range force.

Id point out that the base troops would be working on the brutish high S and T but low WS BS and I style of infantry. The lizard guys you are thinking of are the loxytl mentioned in the 4the Ed rulebook, i tried to work them in as a fast attack choice but im not sure how it worked.
18"+2D6 might work.. but it wouldnt be much different from lowering the range to D3x12" which i feel would be easier to use on the battlefield IMO

Theres also Dark Eldar Sslyth

WS 4 BS 4 S 5 T 5 W 2 I 4 A 3 LD 3 (lol) Sv 5+
Fleet + FNP
Various spliter weapons etc.

I know there are other lizard races around (i had forgotten about the sslyth tbh) but other than keeping the theme of physically strong but low to average skill, i dont want to just copy rules and stats.

You don't have to copy them, but just use them as a base. Heres S5 T5 W2 and FNP - if you want to be tougher than that, your just being greedy!

Another big issue is those weird guns you've got. Consider, if the vast majority of people ITT think random range is stupid, maybe you should just change it? And like I said earlier, why super-rending? And what does another rending basic gun like the Shuriken stuff really add to the game?

For main guns, off the top of my head we've got
~Bolter Equiv (SM, CSM, GK)
~Bolter Equiv w/ Mass # of shots and overwatch (Orks)
~Bolter Equiv w/ glances on 6 (Necron)
~Bolter Equiv w/ bonus shots on 6 (Necron)
~Poison (Dark Eldar)
~High Strength (Tau)
~Lasgun (IG)
~Lasgun or Bolter Equiv w/ Rending (Eldar) (can't remember S of weapon)
~Mass Precision (Kroot)
+whatever it is termagaunts are

Either fit the main gun into the Bolter or Lasgun Equiv, or try and give it an interesting effect different from one of these. Random range doesn't really make it different in a meaningful way IMO.