With Codex: Inquisition on the way, I've decided to add some more inquisitorial presence to my GK list (that will in time become it's own army). So that means I need henchmen. My question is, what builds are good (assuming everything is the same as in C:GK)?

I've already got a DCA/Crusaer squad or two, depending on how I split the models.

I'm not looking for the standard 'plasma in Chimera' idea, as I already have an IG army should I want that. I'm looking for fun, preferably unusual, builds for squads that people have had success with. The crazier the better. On a similar note, if anyone has any good inquisitor builds then I'd like to hear those as well, please.

Thanks.

Hmm I seem to remember 6 I think it was psykers in an inquisitorial chimera had the opportunity for hilarity launching pieplates from the firepoint. DCA/Crusaders+ techpriest can be good too (mostly for techy grenades).You could probably do servitors+jokero as a "mini loyalist oblit squad". Not saying they're amazingly useful builds mind.

I like the idea of Jokearo and servitors, they'd need to be babysat by an Inquisitor to avoid mind-lock, but could put out some nice firepower. What about adding some Crusaders for a bit more defence?

Psyker squads is certainly a cool option, and would be a great conversion opportunity (which is really what this project is about)

 Paradigm wrote:
I like the idea of Jokearo and servitors, they'd need to be babysat by an Inquisitor to avoid mind-lock, but could put out some nice firepower. What about adding some Crusaders for a bit more defence?

Psyker squads is certainly a cool option, and would be a great conversion opportunity (which is really what this project is about)

Doubt you'd NEED crusaders given proper cover camping for the jokero, but an inquisitor can take a conversion beamer if i recall right? Or was that just the techies? Though one with a hex rifle would give you a good conversion opportunity too, and fit in with the rather odd loyalist psuedo artillery blob

If it's a conversion project my votes on the psyker battle barge, I remember seeing one someone had done with a flatbed chimera with like a choir platform for the psykers.

Hmm. Flatbed Chimera... Choir platform... sold. I think is is certainly going to happen at some point, thanks for the idea.

A Techie with Beamer would be cool, I'm not sure if an inquisitor can take one (lent my codex to a friend). If so, great. If not, Hex rifle would be fine.

Remember to name it "the beat box"

If i remember correctly, Ordo Xenos get the beamer as their bigger shooty toy, Malleus get the hellrifle (not hex, oops) as theirs. My own is burried somewhere >.> Bonus to the malleus being making him a lvl1 psyker, if i recall under 6ed it'll give him a free shooty divination power for cheap.

3 Servitors w/ Plasma Cannons and 3 Henchmen with Plasma guns and some Crusaders for defense is a hell of a firebase.

2 monkeys and 10 bolter guys makes a very good henchmen squad if they are troops. especially if you get a whole lot of 6 of them, then deploy them according to what squad got what buffs.

Saw a list on here once that wAs for 2k and hAd coteaz and like 50 jackaroo weapon smiths. Every other choice was them, sounds hilarious but no clue who has anywhere near that many models

BoomWolf wrote:2 monkeys and 10 bolter guys makes a very good henchmen squad if they are troops. especially if you get a whole lot of 6 of them, then deploy them according to what squad got what buffs.

I like the idea of that, nice and shooty while still fairly cheap. I'd probably go carapace on the bolter dudes.

Exalbaru wrote:Saw a list on here once that wAs for 2k and hAd coteaz and like 50 jackaroo weapon smiths. Every other choice was them, sounds hilarious but no clue who has anywhere near that many models

Planet of the Apes?

But seriously, regardless of them being T3 with a 5+ save, 50 LC shots from the start if you get turn one would be hilarious!

My first two suggestions are kind of plasma in chimera-related:

While IG can get vets with plasma guns, henchmen can be built to be pretty awesome "stormtroopers".

167 points buys you 9 dudes in carapace with 6 hellguns and 3 plasmaguns, plus the heavy flamer/lascannon of a jokaero. All the buffs are pretty awesome, whether it is the increased range, rending weapons, +1 save for power armor, or invulnerable save. You could be cheap and just give them stormbolters or boltguns.

Alternatively, I'm sure at least the Xeno inquisitor will have all sorts of crazy ranged options, so a few servitors with plasma cannons, and a few jokaero can make for a fun unit. Also in a chimera, of course.

Then there is the deathcult assassin/crusader mix. This works extra well when paired with Hammerhands and GK's special grenades.

The usual DCA/Crusader Squad + a Techpriest with grenades, and then add the mini obliterator squad (3Plaservitors, 2 Jokaero + Akolyths for filler).

Use the Techpriest to bolster defences for the Obliterator Squad, stick Coteaz with them too for twinlinking and his pseudo-Interceptor.


Other than that: 8Psykers + 3 Crusaders in Chimera for a pseudo vindicator which isn't able to shoot half the time.

And of course, Chimeras full of Crusaders and Karasmazov in the backfield (put him onto a fortification for LoS).


Maybe try out taking a few priests for their eviscaratos, since DCA maybe will be FAQed in the near future (if their SoB counterparts are anything to go by).

 Omegus wrote:
My first two suggestions are kind of plasma in chimera-related:

While IG can get vets with plasma guns, henchmen can be built to be pretty awesome "stormtroopers".

167 points buys you 9 dudes in carapace with 6 hellguns and 3 plasmaguns, plus the heavy flamer/lascannon of a jokaero. All the buffs are pretty awesome, whether it is the increased range, rending weapons, +1 save for power armor, or invulnerable save. You could be cheap and just give them stormbolters or boltguns.

That's a pretty neat idea. I'm still holding out hope for Inquisitorial Stormtroopers in Codex:I, but if they don't show up this this is a pretty good alternative. Thanks.

Hi , I play henchmen without power armour. My other army is a Draigo build.

Inquisitors are fantasticly good value for their presience rerolls as is, of course, Coteaz.

DCAs and Crusaders are hard to make effective unless they're in an assault vehicle. As a counter-assault unit in backfield they are ok if you position the crusaders well (to take incoming fire). A single Crusader added to a henchmen squad generally avoids a Ld test for a turn which can make all the difference. A single DCA added to a henchmen squad significantly increases that unit's versatility on the ever-changing battlefield, but some purists sneer at mixing up the roles.

The codex's secret is 3 lots of 6 psykers in a rhino (better than chimera as only 1 fire point needed and can avoid stuns etc and is cheaper). S8 AP1 Large Blasts negate multiwound T4s and termi armour and are rather good against vehicles. 3 units ensure a high success rate (~75%), which is a single large blast going off on target. Add in a naked acolyte to each psyker squad to avoid losing the unit, and a kp, to perils. Trust me, just try them out.

3 plasma cannon servitors and a jokaero or two with Coteaz in an ADL or chimera is good.

I'm also very much enjoying 12 henchmen with storm bolters (or 11 and a crusader up front) with a prescience inquisitor. Get 2 squads and walk them! Rerolling 48 BS3 bolter hits out to 30" threat range has brought down riptides etc - strength through forcing lots of dice rolls! And of course they're so cheap there will be scarier units on the board to fire at.

A bog standard unit is 3 naked acolytes in a razorback with psyammo.

I'd go on but I'm needed elsewhere in the house :S

Sethorly wrote:
Hi , I play henchmen without power armour. My other army is a Draigo build.

Inquisitors are fantasticly good value for their presience rerolls as is, of course, Coteaz.

DCAs and Crusaders are hard to make effective unless they're in an assault vehicle. As a counter-assault unit in backfield they are ok if you position the crusaders well (to take incoming fire). A single Crusader added to a henchmen squad generally avoids a Ld test for a turn which can make all the difference. A single DCA added to a henchmen squad significantly increases that unit's versatility on the ever-changing battlefield, but some purists sneer at mixing up the roles.

The codex's secret is 3 lots of 6 psykers in a rhino (better than chimera as only 1 fire point needed and can avoid stuns etc and is cheaper). S8 AP1 Large Blasts negate multiwound T4s and termi armour and are rather good against vehicles. 3 units ensure a high success rate (~75%), which is a single large blast going off on target. Add in a naked acolyte to each psyker squad to avoid losing the unit, and a kp, to perils. Trust me, just try them out.

3 plasma cannon servitors and a jokaero or two with Coteaz in an ADL or chimera is good.

I'm also very much enjoying 12 henchmen with storm bolters (or 11 and a crusader up front) with a prescience inquisitor. Get 2 squads and walk them! Rerolling 48 BS3 bolter hits out to 30" threat range has brought down riptides etc - strength through forcing lots of dice rolls! And of course they're so cheap there will be scarier units on the board to fire at.

A bog standard unit is 3 naked acolytes in a razorback with psyammo.

I'd go on but I'm needed elsewhere in the house :S

You would need two inquisitors to give them all re-rolls, no?

How does a Crusader keep you from breaking?

The psykers are fun, although I'd be tempted to bring IG allies for that.

 Omegus wrote:

Sethorly wrote:
Hi , I play henchmen without power armour. My other army is a Draigo build.

Inquisitors are fantasticly good value for their presience rerolls as is, of course, Coteaz.

DCAs and Crusaders are hard to make effective unless they're in an assault vehicle. As a counter-assault unit in backfield they are ok if you position the crusaders well (to take incoming fire). A single Crusader added to a henchmen squad generally avoids a Ld test for a turn which can make all the difference. A single DCA added to a henchmen squad significantly increases that unit's versatility on the ever-changing battlefield, but some purists sneer at mixing up the roles.

The codex's secret is 3 lots of 6 psykers in a rhino (better than chimera as only 1 fire point needed and can avoid stuns etc and is cheaper). S8 AP1 Large Blasts negate multiwound T4s and termi armour and are rather good against vehicles. 3 units ensure a high success rate (~75%), which is a single large blast going off on target. Add in a naked acolyte to each psyker squad to avoid losing the unit, and a kp, to perils. Trust me, just try them out.

3 plasma cannon servitors and a jokaero or two with Coteaz in an ADL or chimera is good.

I'm also very much enjoying 12 henchmen with storm bolters (or 11 and a crusader up front) with a prescience inquisitor. Get 2 squads and walk them! Rerolling 48 BS3 bolter hits out to 30" threat range has brought down riptides etc - strength through forcing lots of dice rolls! And of course they're so cheap there will be scarier units on the board to fire at.

A bog standard unit is 3 naked acolytes in a razorback with psyammo.

I'd go on but I'm needed elsewhere in the house :S

You would need two inquisitors to give them all re-rolls, no?

How does a Crusader keep you from breaking?

The psykers are fun, although I'd be tempted to bring IG allies for that.

Crusaders are something like a 15 points for a body with storm shield and power weapon, keep him in front and your looking at rolling against a 3++ in defense rather than worrying about losing those 12ish point 4-5+ acolyte bodies carrying the real toys.

As for the psykers, 80pts of IG Psyker gets a S6 Large Blast at AP D6, while 80pts of GK Psyker gets a S10 Large Blast at AP1 that can score as troops.

Well, the IG psykers also can reduce leadership and don't die the first time you suffer perils.

 Omegus wrote:
Well, the IG psykers also can reduce leadership and don't die the first time you suffer perils.

It's a personal taste thing, being able to throw around a better template in a dedicated transport and score vs leadership debuffing and no autokilling a measly 80 points of psyker on a perils

Plus if i recall two different troop slots. The IG ones take up a slot and bring something the GK already have, rather than bringing a nice suicide ST unit or something that the GK don't have.

 Omegus wrote:

You would need two inquisitors to give them all re-rolls, no?

How does a Crusader keep you from breaking?

The psykers are fun, although I'd be tempted to bring IG allies for that.

Yep, psyker inquisitors are cheap enough to make this worthwhile, especially as you can buff them in other ways.

Crusader tends to soak up a few hits, thus avoiding casualties, thus avoiding a Ld test.

Remember that fewer than 3 GK psyker units are very unrealiable given the low leadership and scatter (both accounted for in my 75% figure above). I look at the total cost of the 3 psyker units and compare that with a tank that can throw out a similar pie plate with a similar reliability.

I like the psyker squads idea, one or two of those are certainly in.

Also liking the idea of running Crusader kind of like sergeants, as upgrades to squad to help them stick around longer. SB or Bolter squads are also a neat idea (the only think I'm thinking there is bringing DA or SM allies might be simpler)

Regarding re-rolls, I'll likely be taking 2 Inquisitors most of the time anyway, and I'm sure they'd still be pretty good without re-rolls if needed).

 Paradigm wrote:
I like the idea of Jokearo and servitors, they'd need to be babysat by an Inquisitor to avoid mind-lock, but could put out some nice firepower. What about adding some Crusaders for a bit more defence?

Psyker squads is certainly a cool option, and would be a great conversion opportunity (which is really what this project is about)

I am playing 3 Heavy bolters with a single monkey and a handful of warriors with just boltguns for wounds/more shooting.
---I personally put a few crusaders in every henchmen squad for resilience and because i like them.

I also love running "Storm Troopers" Hot Shots with Carapace and a Monkey or two...hot shots are one of the best guns for monkey upgrades to affect.
I like putting these guys in a storm raven and dropping them with the dual heavy flamer monkies on...most anything.

You can get two acolytes with stormbolters for the price of one Space Marine.

 Omegus wrote:
You can get two acolytes with stormbolters for the price of one Space Marine.

Yes, but only if you stick with Flak armour. I was thinking SM would add some much-needed durability and get BS4 to boot, as well as meaning I can bring terminators/whirlwinds/relic-loaded captains, as well as being nice and fluffy. I'm fine with T3 Sv5+ models, but only when it's IG and I can bring them by the dozen for a single FOC. I'll certainly be adding SM/IG to this list most of the time, so that's where the cheap or durable scoring bodies will come from. I would rather my Inq elements to focus on the more esoteric and unusual choices, especially as I only have 6 Troops spots and will likely fill them.

So far, I'm looking along the lines of: (no points as the codex is on loan to a friend)

2x DCA/Crusader squad (8:4 ratio)
2x Psyker Squads, probably in Chimeras or Rhinos
jokearo+servitor squad (numbers undecided, probably joined by an Inq with Conversion Beamer or Hellrifle)

Hopefully Inq Stormtroopers as elites.

Leaves me one troops, which will probably be filled with a small squad of Lasgun acolytes that will just GTG on an objective the whole game. If I'm using allies, these will be swapped out for more points in tac squads/IG blobs.

Or just put in a fun unit of just daemonhosts...haha

Space Marines are not durable, especially when you only have a handful of them. It's like having one vehicle on the table, they will draw all the anti-MEQ fire and die as easy as guardsmen.

 Omegus wrote:
Space Marines are not durable, especially when you only have a handful of them. It's like having one vehicle on the table, they will draw all the anti-MEQ fire and die as easy as guardsmen.

Space Marines are relatively durable.

But he's right...anything AP3 or worse is headed for them...hello fire prisms.

SM are plenty durable in my experience. I don't really understand why there is such a strong feeling they are too weak.

I don't play competitively so the likes of multi-riptides and eldar mass-rending never show up, and I've never even seen a Heldrake on the table. Fire prisms kill them, true, but I've only even seen them once or twice, and some DP melta usually takes care of them.

Thinking about small arms such as bolters or gauss flayers, a SB acolyte is going down on a 3 with no save, a SM is going down on a 4 with a 3+ save. I know which I'd pick.

Anyway, I'll avoid getting bogged down in this debate as it's not a direction I want to take this thread in.

I just want to give a big thanks to Paradigm for starting this thread. My first 40k army was GK, and I absolutely did not want to play henchmen at first. Now I'm getting the bug to start a warband, and I think an awesome list will be two squads of DCA/Crusaders in a Land Raider and Stormraven each, a few Psyker squads in Rhinos or Chimeras (only thinking of Chimera due to the extra armor and stock guns), and a Plasma cannon servitor/ Plasma Gun acolyte squad or two in a Chimera as well, backed up by coteaz and another Prescience Inquisitor. Nasty shooting/assault combo in which everything scores, gotta love it. Particularly due to the opportunity for fun conversions, because let's face it...GW henchmen models are EXPENSIVE, and I for one plan on finding alternative models to convert.

It's not that they're weak exactly, it's just AP3 isn't as glorious as it used to be with most armies having a damn good bit of AP2/3 shooting, plus one or two MEQ units among all those flakk bodies is going to draw most of that shooting.

Theres a thought though, like ductvader said, i had forgotten daemonhost's were a thing. Depending on your stance towards the "CC is dead and the sky is falling" gak, they're rather like a CC jokero, but more self dependent. I only ran it once or twice, but a few of those in with a power armoured malleus with daemonblade was fun. Pad the unit with a crusader and DCA or 3 and it makes a slightly pricier but more hilarious take on the usual CC henchmen squad, especially when you pull some of the more interesting powers out with it, like ignoring saves

I'm more than happy to use CC units, the thoughts that CC is dead is another internet phenomenon I have yet to see evidenced.

In the vein, demonhosts are looking pretty cool, even just as a conversion task. The only problem is that I seem to be running out of troop slots. Not got the codex handy and can't remember what they can do, but do the buffs they roll apply to the whole unit? If so, then that could be great, if not, then it's a book-keeping nightmare waiting to happen

As a final note on the SM thing, I'd be taking at least 20-30, which I've found to be plenty for allies, and as I'll be using rhinos and/or pods, I imagine they'll do pretty well. I'm not worried about that side of the army to be honest, as I've played them for years and know the ins and outs of them by now. On the other hand, I've never used Inquisition stuff, so that's a whole new world.

I would definitely convert...daemonhosts' actual models are expensive.

 Paradigm wrote:
I'm more than happy to use CC units, the thoughts that CC is dead is another internet phenomenon I have yet to see evidenced.

In the vein, demonhosts are looking pretty cool, even just as a conversion task. The only problem is that I seem to be running out of troop slots. Not got the codex handy and can't remember what they can do, but do the buffs they roll apply to the whole unit? If so, then that could be great, if not, then it's a book-keeping nightmare waiting to happen

As a final note on the SM thing, I'd be taking at least 20-30, which I've found to be plenty for allies, and as I'll be using rhinos and/or pods, I imagine they'll do pretty well. I'm not worried about that side of the army to be honest, as I've played them for years and know the ins and outs of them by now. On the other hand, I've never used Inquisition stuff, so that's a whole new world.

Erm, as far as i remember the Daemonhosts buffs are personal, with the exception of I think the 1 or 2 shooting attacks on the list, and maybe there was one or two that through a debuff on enemy units. Don't forget double FOC at 2k points if you intend on going that far, 4 inquisitors could be rather funny, though if you intend to use them under the GK rules/depending on how the new inquisition book goes don't forget your coteaz tax.

On the subject of inquisitors actually, i'd say don't be afraid to take some of the crazier stuff too. The plasma syphon and that thing that gives you better shooting at psykers springs to mind.

ductvader wrote:I would definitely convert...daemonhosts' actual models are expensive.

Of course. This whole project is just one massive modelling oddesy, so I very much doubt there will be a single stock model in the whole army!

doc1234 wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I'm more than happy to use CC units, the thoughts that CC is dead is another internet phenomenon I have yet to see evidenced.

In the vein, demonhosts are looking pretty cool, even just as a conversion task. The only problem is that I seem to be running out of troop slots. Not got the codex handy and can't remember what they can do, but do the buffs they roll apply to the whole unit? If so, then that could be great, if not, then it's a book-keeping nightmare waiting to happen

As a final note on the SM thing, I'd be taking at least 20-30, which I've found to be plenty for allies, and as I'll be using rhinos and/or pods, I imagine they'll do pretty well. I'm not worried about that side of the army to be honest, as I've played them for years and know the ins and outs of them by now. On the other hand, I've never used Inquisition stuff, so that's a whole new world.

Erm, as far as i remember the Daemonhosts buffs are personal, with the exception of I think the 1 or 2 shooting attacks on the list, and maybe there was one or two that through a debuff on enemy units. Don't forget double FOC at 2k points if you intend on going that far, 4 inquisitors could be rather funny, though if you intend to use them under the GK rules/depending on how the new inquisition book goes don't forget your coteaz tax.

On the subject of inquisitors actually, i'd say don't be afraid to take some of the crazier stuff too. The plasma syphon and that thing that gives you better shooting at psykers springs to mind.

Double FOC certainly opens up a lot more options, both in troops and HQ, and multi-inquisitors will be fun. It'll be a long time before I get that far, though. The Inq codex supposedly works as a standalone, so I'm not too worried about having to take Coteaz.

Great and helpful advice so far everyone, thanks! Keep it coming.

Adding extra armor onto Warrior Acolytes is a TERRIBLE idea. The whole reason henchmen are good is because they are cheap. One guy with a bolter is 5 points. 5 points! And with a stormbolter 7 points. If you start throwing armor on these guys they will go from amazing points value to meh in no time flat.


PS - Don't ever take laspistol acolytes (4 points each) unless you literally don't have the points to take the bolter guys. The bolter acolytes are so much better for one more measly point.

Super Newb wrote:
Adding extra armor onto Warrior Acolytes is a TERRIBLE idea. The whole reason henchmen are good is because they are cheap. One guy with a bolter is 5 points. 5 points! And with a stormbolter 7 points. If you start throwing armor on these guys they will go from amazing points value to meh in no time flat.


PS - Don't ever take laspistol acolytes (4 points each) unless you literally don't have the points to take the bolter guys. The bolter acolytes are so much better for one more measly point.

Opinion.

I and many others have run warriors with increased armor to great effect.

Super Newb wrote:
Adding extra armor onto Warrior Acolytes is a TERRIBLE idea. The whole reason henchmen are good is because they are cheap. One guy with a bolter is 5 points. 5 points! And with a stormbolter 7 points. If you start throwing armor on these guys they will go from amazing points value to meh in no time flat.


PS - Don't ever take laspistol acolytes (4 points each) unless you literally don't have the points to take the bolter guys. The bolter acolytes are so much better for one more measly point.

I appreciate the armour is expensive, but all the firepower in the world is useless if they are getting blown off the board in seconds. With IG I'll happily pay for carapace as it doubles the survivability against AP5 small arms like gauss, bolters and pulse weapons. The same is true here, if the squad is going on the front lines then it's probably getting armour. But as I say, I'm probably bringing allies for my front-line bolter troops anyway.

I'm considering running a unit of laspistol acolytes just to hold an objective out of LOS, no point in taking guns that never get used.

 Paradigm wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Adding extra armor onto Warrior Acolytes is a TERRIBLE idea. The whole reason henchmen are good is because they are cheap. One guy with a bolter is 5 points. 5 points! And with a stormbolter 7 points. If you start throwing armor on these guys they will go from amazing points value to meh in no time flat.


PS - Don't ever take laspistol acolytes (4 points each) unless you literally don't have the points to take the bolter guys. The bolter acolytes are so much better for one more measly point.

I appreciate the armour is expensive, but all the firepower in the world is useless if they are getting blown off the board in seconds. With IG I'll happily pay for carapace as it doubles the survivability against AP5 small arms like gauss, bolters and pulse weapons. The same is true here, if the squad is going on the front lines then it's probably getting armour. But as I say, I'm probably bringing allies for my front-line bolter troops anyway.

I'm considering running a unit of laspistol acolytes just to hold an objective out of LOS, no point in taking guns that never get used.

4+ is where its at...And don't count those warriors out for assault...that's 3 attacks a piece on the charge if you keep your stock weapons...I once surprised an ork player with 12 of these guys hammerhanded by an inquisitor and rad grenades.

Super cheap objective holder that can dish some pain.

 ductvader wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Adding extra armor onto Warrior Acolytes is a TERRIBLE idea. The whole reason henchmen are good is because they are cheap. One guy with a bolter is 5 points. 5 points! And with a stormbolter 7 points. If you start throwing armor on these guys they will go from amazing points value to meh in no time flat.


PS - Don't ever take laspistol acolytes (4 points each) unless you literally don't have the points to take the bolter guys. The bolter acolytes are so much better for one more measly point.

Opinion.

I and many others have run warriors with increased armor to great effect.

Of course it's my opinion, lol, what else would it be?

Anyway, a person can run a massively overcosted HQ (due to too many upgrades) and have it work well for them, but that doesn't mean it is efficient pointswise.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Adding extra armor onto Warrior Acolytes is a TERRIBLE idea. The whole reason henchmen are good is because they are cheap. One guy with a bolter is 5 points. 5 points! And with a stormbolter 7 points. If you start throwing armor on these guys they will go from amazing points value to meh in no time flat.


PS - Don't ever take laspistol acolytes (4 points each) unless you literally don't have the points to take the bolter guys. The bolter acolytes are so much better for one more measly point.

I appreciate the armour is expensive, but all the firepower in the world is useless if they are getting blown off the board in seconds. With IG I'll happily pay for carapace as it doubles the survivability against AP5 small arms like gauss, bolters and pulse weapons. The same is true here, if the squad is going on the front lines then it's probably getting armour. But as I say, I'm probably bringing allies for my front-line bolter troops anyway.

I don't know man, giving them all armor just makes them into troops that aren't a good deal cost wise. Why try to make them cost almost as much as a space marine when they'll still perform much worse than one?

If you are running Coteaz, you can take them as elites too.

Carapace is probably a waste, it "doubles survivability against bolters/pulse rifles/shuriken/flamers" but you could just bring 2x more dudes, too.

Power armor definitely is a waste of points since you are still T3 (no one calls scorpions or warp spiders durable). Just put the points towards jokaero. Two give you something like a 50% chance to get improved saves.

Marines are more durable than most line infantry, but you need weight of numbers to make it count. Either massed bikes or massed tacticals is the way to go. 10 marines are easy to kill, 60+ is hard.

 Omegus wrote:
If you are running Coteaz, you can take them as elites too.

Carapace is probably a waste, it "doubles survivability against bolters/pulse rifles/shuriken/flamers" but you could just bring 2x more dudes, too.

Power armor definitely is a waste of points since you are still T3 (no one calls scorpions or warp spiders durable). Just put the points towards jokaero. Two give you something like a 50% chance to get improved saves.

Marines are more durable than most line infantry, but you need weight of numbers to make it count. Either massed bikes or massed tacticals is the way to go. 10 marines are easy to kill, 60+ is hard.

Are you sure about that first point? I thought it just moved them rather than meant you could take them in 2 squads. I may be wrong, but as far as I'm aware that how almost every other FOC shift works. If not, then that' great, but at the moment I'm doubtful.

Taking 2x as many guys is probably a better option, but the problem is that with everything being troops and therefore capping at 6 slots, just upping the numbers is not really viable in some cases. I'm looking at a maximum of 72 models in troops, and if they are relying just on 5+ saves, I know from my experience with IG that that number can easily be blown away fast.

I wouldn't go with power armour, but I pay the points for carapace on IG vets and it always comes in handy, so I'll be going for that on most things that can take it (barring the naked acolyte squad that's just going to camp an objective out of LOS or at worst in very good cover (with GTG).

As I say, I'll be bringing 30 marines in transports as allies as a minimum, so as far as I'm concerned that's enough. That is based on experience, I'm not just assuming they'll make it.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
If you are running Coteaz, you can take them as elites too.

Carapace is probably a waste, it "doubles survivability against bolters/pulse rifles/shuriken/flamers" but you could just bring 2x more dudes, too.

Power armor definitely is a waste of points since you are still T3 (no one calls scorpions or warp spiders durable). Just put the points towards jokaero. Two give you something like a 50% chance to get improved saves.

Marines are more durable than most line infantry, but you need weight of numbers to make it count. Either massed bikes or massed tacticals is the way to go. 10 marines are easy to kill, 60+ is hard.

Are you sure about that first point? I thought it just moved them rather than meant you could take them in 2 squads. I may be wrong, but as far as I'm aware that how almost every other FOC shift works. If not, then that' great, but at the moment I'm doubtful.

Taking 2x as many guys is probably a better option, but the problem is that with everything being troops and therefore capping at 6 slots, just upping the numbers is not really viable in some cases. I'm looking at a maximum of 72 models in troops, and if they are relying just on 5+ saves, I know from my experience with IG that that number can easily be blown away fast.

I wouldn't go with power armour, but I pay the points for carapace on IG vets and it always comes in handy, so I'll be going for that on most things that can take it (barring the naked acolyte squad that's just going to camp an objective out of LOS or at worst in very good cover (with GTG).

As I say, I'll be bringing 30 marines in transports as allies as a minimum, so as far as I'm concerned that's enough. That is based on experience, I'm not just assuming they'll make it.

FAQ states that Coteaz makes Henchmen troops only.

FAQ states that Coteaz makes Henchmen troops only.

Thought so. Cheers.

 ductvader wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Adding extra armor onto Warrior Acolytes is a TERRIBLE idea. The whole reason henchmen are good is because they are cheap. One guy with a bolter is 5 points. 5 points! And with a stormbolter 7 points. If you start throwing armor on these guys they will go from amazing points value to meh in no time flat.


PS - Don't ever take laspistol acolytes (4 points each) unless you literally don't have the points to take the bolter guys. The bolter acolytes are so much better for one more measly point.

Opinion.

I and many others have run warriors with increased armor to great effect.

Anecdotal evidence.

The fact that you blanketly state that it worked well for you doesn't automatically make it a good idea. What did you play against in each game? How good was your opponent? What missions did ye play? How were the dice? These are just some of the factors that go into the experience of a game, and none of them are ever the same. I'm confident that I could beat a full 1850pts Marine list run by a 12yr old that has only bought starter boxes for his army with just two Wraithknights, but that doesn't mean I am confident I could bring them to a tournament and win with just them.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Adding extra armor onto Warrior Acolytes is a TERRIBLE idea. The whole reason henchmen are good is because they are cheap. One guy with a bolter is 5 points. 5 points! And with a stormbolter 7 points. If you start throwing armor on these guys they will go from amazing points value to meh in no time flat.


PS - Don't ever take laspistol acolytes (4 points each) unless you literally don't have the points to take the bolter guys. The bolter acolytes are so much better for one more measly point.

Opinion.

I and many others have run warriors with increased armor to great effect.

Anecdotal evidence.

The fact that you blanketly state that it worked well for you doesn't automatically make it a good idea. What did you play against in each game? How good was your opponent? What missions did ye play? How were the dice? These are just some of the factors that go into the experience of a game, and none of them are ever the same. I'm confident that I could beat a full 1850pts Marine list run by a 12yr old that has only bought starter boxes for his army with just two Wraithknights, but that doesn't mean I am confident I could bring them to a tournament and win with just them.

At least we know both sides must be anecdotal.

I am perfectly okay with that.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Adding extra armor onto Warrior Acolytes is a TERRIBLE idea. The whole reason henchmen are good is because they are cheap. One guy with a bolter is 5 points. 5 points! And with a stormbolter 7 points. If you start throwing armor on these guys they will go from amazing points value to meh in no time flat.


PS - Don't ever take laspistol acolytes (4 points each) unless you literally don't have the points to take the bolter guys. The bolter acolytes are so much better for one more measly point.

Opinion.

I and many others have run warriors with increased armor to great effect.

Anecdotal evidence.

The fact that you blanketly state that it worked well for you doesn't automatically make it a good idea. What did you play against in each game? How good was your opponent? What missions did ye play? How were the dice? These are just some of the factors that go into the experience of a game, and none of them are ever the same. I'm confident that I could beat a full 1850pts Marine list run by a 12yr old that has only bought starter boxes for his army with just two Wraithknights, but that doesn't mean I am confident I could bring them to a tournament and win with just them.

Neither does it make it a bad one. The variables you listed are certainly factors in list-building, but often they are more helpful that just considering units in a vacuum. I find that taking a unit in context is always more useful than just assuming the person stating/asking is playing at the most competitive levels or against the most common lists. The variables are what makes a unit good or bad, far more than pure mathematics, and vary on a player-to-player basis. Applying a 'one size fits all' mentality is not as useful in my opinion. For example, my meta is particularly low on AP3 as I'm currently one of only 2 MEQ players, and we also use a lot more LOS-blocking terrain than it seems a lot of groups use. I don't see Tau or Eldar a lot, and no Heldrakes have ever been used against me. As such, I find my marines far more durable than the internet suggests at times. This doesn't mean my 'anecdotal evidence' or experience is useless just because I don't play against those, any more than it makes anyone's advice valid just because they play a tournament. Anecdotal evidence can't just be dismissed.

So while to many increasing armour may be useless, to others it can be exceptionally helpful. On the whole, I'll take durability before firepower, as a weaker gun firing for 4 turns is better in my opinion than an amazing gun firing for one. Yes, 5-point bolter acolytes are amazing value for points offensively, but have all the durability of a small fly. That 'bang for your buck' is useless when they get off one round of shooting before dying in seconds, especially when the squad caps at 12 models (and I'm not going to rely on one Crusader to up the survivability that much). So in that case I value the added durability far more than damage-per-point efficiency. If it were IG and I could take squad of 30, then numbers would come first, but 12 T3 5+sv are far too easy to kill.

Now I'm wondering, why not pay 5 points for bolter acolytes and keep them in a chimera for the first few turns? Having never purchased carapace armor I am unsure what it costs, but it is something absurd like 8 points isn't it? Absurd relative to the base cost of the acolyte that is. Heck even if it is 6 points... 6 times 12 is way more than the cost of a chimera.

Super Newb wrote:
Now I'm wondering, why not pay 5 points for bolter acolytes and keep them in a chimera for the first few turns? Having never purchased carapace armor I am unsure what it costs, but it is something absurd like 8 points isn't it? Absurd relative to the base cost of the acolyte that is. Heck even if it is 6 points... 6 times 12 is way more than the cost of a chimera.

It is 4.

8 points for PA, Super Newb, 4 for carapace. As such, a bolter+carapace dude costs 9 points, which is more than fair in my opinion. With SB and Carapace only being 10, it's even better. Sure, putting them in chimeras is an option, but I have my GEQ mech style filled by IG, so I'd rather keep this army mostly foot-slogging. 55 points for a chimera versus 4x12 for capapace is certainly a good deal, but it's just not the direction I want this army to go in.

 Paradigm wrote:
8 points for PA, Super Newb, 4 for carapace. As such, a bolter+carapace dude costs 9 points, which is more than fair in my opinion. With SB and Carapace only being 10, it's even better. Sure, putting them in chimeras is an option, but I have my GEQ mech style filled by IG, so I'd rather keep this army mostly foot-slogging. 55 points for a chimera versus 4x12 for capapace is certainly a good deal, but it's just not the direction I want this army to go in.

Not to mention a Chimera exploding (which is not uncommon) should kill 5 of them outright...then LD8...there are definite downsides there too for a unit that just wants to score.

 ductvader wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
8 points for PA, Super Newb, 4 for carapace. As such, a bolter+carapace dude costs 9 points, which is more than fair in my opinion. With SB and Carapace only being 10, it's even better. Sure, putting them in chimeras is an option, but I have my GEQ mech style filled by IG, so I'd rather keep this army mostly foot-slogging. 55 points for a chimera versus 4x12 for capapace is certainly a good deal, but it's just not the direction I want this army to go in.

Not to mention a Chimera exploding (which is not uncommon) should kill 5 of them outright...then LD8...there are definite downsides there too for a unit that just wants to score.

Don't know if your math is right, but anyway, yes it isn't uncommon, but it is FAR less common than any unit with any guns in the game killing a chunk of your squad in a round of shooting. It would seem if a unit mostly wants to be around to score the metal 'bawk' that is the chimera would usually be a better option. Still, at least it's only 4 points for the upgrade. But going from 5 points to 9 points, almost double the cost to go from 33% saves to 50% is expensive IMHO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
8 points for PA, Super Newb, 4 for carapace. As such, a bolter+carapace dude costs 9 points, which is more than fair in my opinion. With SB and Carapace only being 10, it's even better.

SB and Carapace would be 11. Which isn't bad, but is getting too close to space marine prices. At least for me...

Super Newb wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
8 points for PA, Super Newb, 4 for carapace. As such, a bolter+carapace dude costs 9 points, which is more than fair in my opinion. With SB and Carapace only being 10, it's even better. Sure, putting them in chimeras is an option, but I have my GEQ mech style filled by IG, so I'd rather keep this army mostly foot-slogging. 55 points for a chimera versus 4x12 for capapace is certainly a good deal, but it's just not the direction I want this army to go in.

Not to mention a Chimera exploding (which is not uncommon) should kill 5 of them outright...then LD8...there are definite downsides there too for a unit that just wants to score.

Don't know if your math is right, but anyway, yes it isn't uncommon, but it is FAR less common than any unit with any guns in the game killing a chunk of your squad in a round of shooting. It would seem if a unit mostly wants to be around to score the metal 'bawk' that is the chimera would usually be a better option. Still, at least it's only 4 points for the upgrade. But going from 5 points to 9 points, almost double the cost to go from 33% saves to 50% is expensive IMHO.

12 S4 hits

x.67 chance of wounding

8 S4 wounds

x.67 chance of not surviving

5.39 failed saves

Ah, thought SB were 2 points, not 3. Still not bad, though.

And regarding the cost increase vs increase in save, the only things that really matter against are lasguns and shootas. Against the rest of the most common weapons in the game, it's the difference between having a save and not having one, which is easily worth 4 points. As I say, ideally I would just double the numbers for the same points, that's not an option thanks to the squad size limits.

Where are you finding the points for maxed out troops in carapace, and 30 allied space marines?

 Paradigm wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Adding extra armor onto Warrior Acolytes is a TERRIBLE idea. The whole reason henchmen are good is because they are cheap. One guy with a bolter is 5 points. 5 points! And with a stormbolter 7 points. If you start throwing armor on these guys they will go from amazing points value to meh in no time flat.


PS - Don't ever take laspistol acolytes (4 points each) unless you literally don't have the points to take the bolter guys. The bolter acolytes are so much better for one more measly point.

Opinion.

I and many others have run warriors with increased armor to great effect.

Anecdotal evidence.

The fact that you blanketly state that it worked well for you doesn't automatically make it a good idea. What did you play against in each game? How good was your opponent? What missions did ye play? How were the dice? These are just some of the factors that go into the experience of a game, and none of them are ever the same. I'm confident that I could beat a full 1850pts Marine list run by a 12yr old that has only bought starter boxes for his army with just two Wraithknights, but that doesn't mean I am confident I could bring them to a tournament and win with just them.

Neither does it make it a bad one. The variables you listed are certainly factors in list-building, but often they are more helpful that just considering units in a vacuum. I find that taking a unit in context is always more useful than just assuming the person stating/asking is playing at the most competitive levels or against the most common lists. The variables are what makes a unit good or bad, far more than pure mathematics, and vary on a player-to-player basis. Applying a 'one size fits all' mentality is not as useful in my opinion. For example, my meta is particularly low on AP3 as I'm currently one of only 2 MEQ players, and we also use a lot more LOS-blocking terrain than it seems a lot of groups use. I don't see Tau or Eldar a lot, and no Heldrakes have ever been used against me. As such, I find my marines far more durable than the internet suggests at times. This doesn't mean my 'anecdotal evidence' or experience is useless just because I don't play against those, any more than it makes anyone's advice valid just because they play a tournament. Anecdotal evidence can't just be dismissed.

So while to many increasing armour may be useless, to others it can be exceptionally helpful. On the whole, I'll take durability before firepower, as a weaker gun firing for 4 turns is better in my opinion than an amazing gun firing for one. Yes, 5-point bolter acolytes are amazing value for points offensively, but have all the durability of a small fly. That 'bang for your buck' is useless when they get off one round of shooting before dying in seconds, especially when the squad caps at 12 models (and I'm not going to rely on one Crusader to up the survivability that much). So in that case I value the added durability far more than damage-per-point efficiency. If it were IG and I could take squad of 30, then numbers would come first, but 12 T3 5+sv are far too easy to kill.

None of this changes what are and are not competitive choices in any given army. And contrary to what you say, yes, they are mathematics, from the probability of common dice rolls to how efficient a unit is for their points. Not everybody plays this way, nor is there any requirement to, and it isn't even a better or worse way of playing, but saying what's competitive is dependent on things like the player's style is incredibly conceited. The issue you aren't seeing here is that just because something is good enough to get by in a certain situation or environment doesn't make it just good; the good stuff is what works all the time.

Also, whereas your altered meta mightn't automatically make your anecdotal evidence useless, that's only because it is already useless, just like all anecdotal evidence is useless. The apple-pie notion that everybody is right in some way just isn't true, not to mention that the real killer is that anecdotal evidence is exaggerated in some way in the majority of cases. If anecdotal evidence should always be given credibility as you suggest, then why bother with hard facts? Why make a proper argument when you can just make something up knowing that people will believe it? And that's only one of the major flaws in your notion.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Adding extra armor onto Warrior Acolytes is a TERRIBLE idea. The whole reason henchmen are good is because they are cheap. One guy with a bolter is 5 points. 5 points! And with a stormbolter 7 points. If you start throwing armor on these guys they will go from amazing points value to meh in no time flat.


PS - Don't ever take laspistol acolytes (4 points each) unless you literally don't have the points to take the bolter guys. The bolter acolytes are so much better for one more measly point.

Opinion.

I and many others have run warriors with increased armor to great effect.

Anecdotal evidence.

The fact that you blanketly state that it worked well for you doesn't automatically make it a good idea. What did you play against in each game? How good was your opponent? What missions did ye play? How were the dice? These are just some of the factors that go into the experience of a game, and none of them are ever the same. I'm confident that I could beat a full 1850pts Marine list run by a 12yr old that has only bought starter boxes for his army with just two Wraithknights, but that doesn't mean I am confident I could bring them to a tournament and win with just them.

Neither does it make it a bad one. The variables you listed are certainly factors in list-building, but often they are more helpful that just considering units in a vacuum. I find that taking a unit in context is always more useful than just assuming the person stating/asking is playing at the most competitive levels or against the most common lists. The variables are what makes a unit good or bad, far more than pure mathematics, and vary on a player-to-player basis. Applying a 'one size fits all' mentality is not as useful in my opinion. For example, my meta is particularly low on AP3 as I'm currently one of only 2 MEQ players, and we also use a lot more LOS-blocking terrain than it seems a lot of groups use. I don't see Tau or Eldar a lot, and no Heldrakes have ever been used against me. As such, I find my marines far more durable than the internet suggests at times. This doesn't mean my 'anecdotal evidence' or experience is useless just because I don't play against those, any more than it makes anyone's advice valid just because they play a tournament. Anecdotal evidence can't just be dismissed.

So while to many increasing armour may be useless, to others it can be exceptionally helpful. On the whole, I'll take durability before firepower, as a weaker gun firing for 4 turns is better in my opinion than an amazing gun firing for one. Yes, 5-point bolter acolytes are amazing value for points offensively, but have all the durability of a small fly. That 'bang for your buck' is useless when they get off one round of shooting before dying in seconds, especially when the squad caps at 12 models (and I'm not going to rely on one Crusader to up the survivability that much). So in that case I value the added durability far more than damage-per-point efficiency. If it were IG and I could take squad of 30, then numbers would come first, but 12 T3 5+sv are far too easy to kill.

None of this changes what are and are not competitive choices in any given army. And contrary to what you say, yes, they are mathematics, from the probability of common dice rolls to how efficient a unit is for their points. Not everybody plays this way, nor is there any requirement to, and it isn't even a better or worse way of playing, but saying what's competitive is dependent on things like the player's style is incredibly conceited. The issue you aren't seeing here is that just because something is good enough to get by in a certain situation or environment doesn't make it just good; the good stuff is what works all the time.

Also, whereas your altered meta mightn't automatically make your anecdotal evidence useless, that's only because it is already useless, just like all anecdotal evidence is useless. The apple-pie notion that everybody is right in some way just isn't true, not to mention that the real killer is that anecdotal evidence is exaggerated in some way in the majority of cases. If anecdotal evidence should always be given credibility as you suggest, then why bother with hard facts? Why make a proper argument when you can just make something up knowing that people will believe it? And that's only one of the major flaws in your notion.

If this game was decided solely on mathematics, with all units and decisions made based on math, then.....it sort of wouldn't be a GAME. Every "game" would be decided before it began, and this would all be pointless. Soooo, to counter your point...if math were all that mattered, why bother with the game?

That's why this game is fun. It is a good mixture of math, psychological warfare, tactics, and straight up LUCK.

You seem to have the very strange idea that math doesn't have anything to do with luck, tactics, OR games.

Perhaps you should read into game theory?

Corollax wrote:
You seem to have the very strange idea that math doesn't have anything to do with luck, tactics, OR games.

Perhaps you should read into game theory?

That is not at all what he said...

He suggests that if all decisions were based on math, the game would be decided before it began. This isn't the case, and there's an entire discipline of mathematics dedicated to studying how chance interacts with decision making. We call it game theory.

If I've misinterpreted his statement, then by all means provide clarification.

 Homeskillet wrote:
solely

Done.

Except that the statement still doesn't hold. There are lots of games, both with random chance and without, where proper mathematical understanding greatly improves your chances of success. You can play without this sort of analysis, but it diminishes your odds of victory.

Consider monopoly. I could program a computer to follow an optimized algorithm. It would not win every time, but it will win at least as often as its opponents, given a sufficiently long sample size. The outcome isn't decided, but it's positively influenced.

Are you suggesting that monopoly is not a game?

You've gone back to misunderstanding with your original point...and made this conversation completely irrelevant.

Unsubscribed from thread.

If there's a misunderstanding, then it's not for lack of trying on my part. I've asked you several times for clarification, but it doesn't seem to be forthcoming.

I'm sorry if I've somehow upset you, but I don't know how else to say it.

Carapace at 4 points is "good"?!

Guys, you are getting 9 points for carapace and bolter.

You know what also got a 4+ save and costs 9 points? fire warriors.

If your henchmen aren't cheap, or do something special-you might as well be playing tau FW spam.


You want bolters for firepower, and monkys for upgrades (2 only, above that it actually gets worse) and special weapons. the bolter dudes are there as meatshields to begin with, and with a bit of luck they get a 4+ armor or 5+ invul. (or even both), or maybe improved guns.
Now, if the new inqusition codex would drop the armor prices a bit, then they may become a worthy investment. right now-they are just too expensive. 4 points is too much for 5+ to 4+, and 8 points for a 3+ is outright wasteful. if they were 3 and 6 points respectively, it would have been a tough call.

BoomWolf, comparing across codexes isn't always useful but here you make a good point.

To me, cheap and efficient henchmen are bolters (maybe stormbolters) and special weapons (pretty much just plasma though). If an inquisitor is babysitting a squad Servitors are auto-include there. The rest is gravy and too much of it ruins the points efficiency of henchmen.

With that said, I still like to run psyker henchmen because I think they're funny, erratic as heck, occasionally awesome, occasionally terrible, but fun. I also run Jokero sometimes but don't think they're the best deal either.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Adding extra armor onto Warrior Acolytes is a TERRIBLE idea. The whole reason henchmen are good is because they are cheap. One guy with a bolter is 5 points. 5 points! And with a stormbolter 7 points. If you start throwing armor on these guys they will go from amazing points value to meh in no time flat.


PS - Don't ever take laspistol acolytes (4 points each) unless you literally don't have the points to take the bolter guys. The bolter acolytes are so much better for one more measly point.

Opinion.

I and many others have run warriors with increased armor to great effect.

Anecdotal evidence.

The fact that you blanketly state that it worked well for you doesn't automatically make it a good idea. What did you play against in each game? How good was your opponent? What missions did ye play? How were the dice? These are just some of the factors that go into the experience of a game, and none of them are ever the same. I'm confident that I could beat a full 1850pts Marine list run by a 12yr old that has only bought starter boxes for his army with just two Wraithknights, but that doesn't mean I am confident I could bring them to a tournament and win with just them.

Neither does it make it a bad one. The variables you listed are certainly factors in list-building, but often they are more helpful that just considering units in a vacuum. I find that taking a unit in context is always more useful than just assuming the person stating/asking is playing at the most competitive levels or against the most common lists. The variables are what makes a unit good or bad, far more than pure mathematics, and vary on a player-to-player basis. Applying a 'one size fits all' mentality is not as useful in my opinion. For example, my meta is particularly low on AP3 as I'm currently one of only 2 MEQ players, and we also use a lot more LOS-blocking terrain than it seems a lot of groups use. I don't see Tau or Eldar a lot, and no Heldrakes have ever been used against me. As such, I find my marines far more durable than the internet suggests at times. This doesn't mean my 'anecdotal evidence' or experience is useless just because I don't play against those, any more than it makes anyone's advice valid just because they play a tournament. Anecdotal evidence can't just be dismissed.

So while to many increasing armour may be useless, to others it can be exceptionally helpful. On the whole, I'll take durability before firepower, as a weaker gun firing for 4 turns is better in my opinion than an amazing gun firing for one. Yes, 5-point bolter acolytes are amazing value for points offensively, but have all the durability of a small fly. That 'bang for your buck' is useless when they get off one round of shooting before dying in seconds, especially when the squad caps at 12 models (and I'm not going to rely on one Crusader to up the survivability that much). So in that case I value the added durability far more than damage-per-point efficiency. If it were IG and I could take squad of 30, then numbers would come first, but 12 T3 5+sv are far too easy to kill.

None of this changes what are and are not competitive choices in any given army. And contrary to what you say, yes, they are mathematics, from the probability of common dice rolls to how efficient a unit is for their points. Not everybody plays this way, nor is there any requirement to, and it isn't even a better or worse way of playing, but saying what's competitive is dependent on things like the player's style is incredibly conceited. The issue you aren't seeing here is that just because something is good enough to get by in a certain situation or environment doesn't make it just good; the good stuff is what works all the time.

Also, whereas your altered meta mightn't automatically make your anecdotal evidence useless, that's only because it is already useless, just like all anecdotal evidence is useless. The apple-pie notion that everybody is right in some way just isn't true, not to mention that the real killer is that anecdotal evidence is exaggerated in some way in the majority of cases. If anecdotal evidence should always be given credibility as you suggest, then why bother with hard facts? Why make a proper argument when you can just make something up knowing that people will believe it? And that's only one of the major flaws in your notion.

This isn't a tangent I really want to go down, but I'm still not seeing why all anecdotal evidence is useless. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the variables are stated (like I have done) then anecdotal evidence (or experience as they are really the same thing) can be just as valuable as pure maths, and in many cases more so. The same variables that affect anecdotal evidence also affect the usefulness of maths, as, for example, the stats for a unit's chances to kill a riptide is irrelevant in a meta where riptides are not seen.

There are too many variables in this game for mathematics in isolation to be of any real use unless you are considering a national/worldwide optimised meta, where the probabilities of certain occurrences and the variation in lists, terrain and missions are much slimmer. As I am not a part of that meta, a large amount of maths is really no more useful to me than some anecdotal evidence. I value both, but in this case I think experience will trump mathematics. Just my opinion, I can see how you won't agree but as I say, I'd like to avoid dragging this thread further off topic.

BoomWolf wrote:Carapace at 4 points is "good"?!

Guys, you are getting 9 points for carapace and bolter.

You know what also got a 4+ save and costs 9 points? fire warriors.

If your henchmen aren't cheap, or do something special-you might as well be playing tau FW spam.


You want bolters for firepower, and monkys for upgrades (2 only, above that it actually gets worse) and special weapons. the bolter dudes are there as meatshields to begin with, and with a bit of luck they get a 4+ armor or 5+ invul. (or even both), or maybe improved guns.
Now, if the new inqusition codex would drop the armor prices a bit, then they may become a worthy investment. right now-they are just too expensive. 4 points is too much for 5+ to 4+, and 8 points for a 3+ is outright wasteful. if they were 3 and 6 points respectively, it would have been a tough call.

Yes, I could just use fire warriors, but then I wouldn't be playing an Inquisition army, which is the whole point of this thread. As I have said before, I am more than happy with the cost and what I get for it. A price reduction would be great, but the current cost still won't prevent me from playing them.

Just to clarify one thing, I am not looking for the most efficient units or the ones that are good regardless of the situation. I just want an army that can hold its own in an EXTREMELY casual meta, so while the discussion that has sprung up over probabilities and stats ect is interesting, it's not overly necessary. To try and drag things back on topic a bit, here's a very rough list (Still no codex handy) based on GK points values but without Coteaz, as the Inquisition book with have non-SC HQ units:

HQ:
Inquisitor with some gear around 70-90 points.

Troops:

8 DCA, 4 Crusaders: 180

8 DCA, 4 Crusaders: 180

6 Psykers, 1 acolyte: 84 points
Rhino: 35

6 Psykers, 1 acolyte: 84 points
Rhino: 35

10 acolytes: 40 (purely for scoring, out of LOS campers)

10 Acolytes with Storm Bolters and carapace armour, 2 Jokearo: 140 (attach to Inq)

SM allies:

Librarian (pyromancy): 65

9 tac marines, flamer: 131
Drop Pod: 35

10 Tac marines, Vet sgt with power sword, melta, ML: 195
Drop Pod: 35

IronClad Dread with HKM: 145
Drop Pod:35

Total: 1500ish.

This is obviously only a rough draft, but any thoughts are welcome. At this stage, pretty much anything can be changed around (and I'm thinking about swapping the Ironclad for a Vindicare assuming they're in the codex)

I like it. Good mix of stuff.

What do the DCA and Crusaders do in your army? I know you said casual setting but I don't know how effective they'll be marching up the board.

Super Newb wrote:
I like it. Good mix of stuff.

What do the DCA and Crusaders do in your army? I know you said casual setting but I don't know how effective they'll be marching up the board.

At the moment, no idea . This list has never been tested, but at the moment I'll try them as they are. I can certainly see them doing either very well or terribly, so it's a case of playtesting. I certainly may invest in transports in future. At the moment I'm planning on running them and the rhinos on a flank and using the transports as mobile cover. The Psykers then drop large-blast death on stuff and the assaulty squads charge in to hack up whatever's next. I'm also hoping that the podding marines will take a lot of firepower off them. As I say, it's a matter playtesting to see what works and what doesn't, and working from there.

The list looks crazy fun. Have you thought about throwing a few Plasma Cannon Servitors in with the Psykers, in case the Psykers nuke themselves with Perils? If they all die it's a free kill point given up in YOUR shooting phase, lol. Not to mention if you have them sitting on an objective, shooting away, and all of a sudden: perils. No more objective.

 Homeskillet wrote:
The list looks crazy fun. Have you thought about throwing a few Plasma Cannon Servitors in with the Psykers, in case the Psykers nuke themselves with Perils? If they all die it's a free kill point given up in YOUR shooting phase, lol. Not to mention if you have them sitting on an objective, shooting away, and all of a sudden: perils. No more objective.

The single acolyte was there in each squad to prevent a KP going on perils, the theory being he will just put the rhino in top gear and motor away from the enemy as fast as possible if they perils. I'm not sure I'd add servitors (thanks to mindlock meaning they need to be babysat) but, points-permitting, jokearo can fulfil the same role, adding some more reliable shooting and potentially giving them an invuln or better save to boot. Maybe even a crusader for pure defensive value. It all depends on points and what models I fancy converting up.

Pyromancy? For reals?

Instead of tac marines, put him with some sternguard or assault centurions if you can stomach the looks/fluff of the latter. EDIT: Scratch that, can't take centurions in a drop pod. So no need to suffer.

Do you usually play at 1500 points? Feels painfully small.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
The list looks crazy fun. Have you thought about throwing a few Plasma Cannon Servitors in with the Psykers, in case the Psykers nuke themselves with Perils? If they all die it's a free kill point given up in YOUR shooting phase, lol. Not to mention if you have them sitting on an objective, shooting away, and all of a sudden: perils. No more objective.

The single acolyte was there in each squad to prevent a KP going on perils, the theory being he will just put the rhino in top gear and motor away from the enemy as fast as possible if they perils. I'm not sure I'd add servitors (thanks to mindlock meaning they need to be babysat) but, points-permitting, jokearo can fulfil the same role, adding some more reliable shooting and potentially giving them an invuln or better save to boot. Maybe even a crusader for pure defensive value. It all depends on points and what models I fancy converting up.

Bah, my bad, didn't see the acolyte in there.

Question, why Storm Bolters as opposed to regular bolters?

ultimentra wrote:Question, why Storm Bolters as opposed to regular bolters?

Largely because it's more shots at long range, meaning that against the likes of tau, crons and SM I can stay out of their double-tap range while still shooting at maximum effect. It maximises damage output while minimising incoming fire. It also means that, in the unlikely event I need to charge, they can put down a load of shots before going in (situational but still nice). Also, more shots mean that if the apes roll Rending or extra range, I get more benefit from it.

Omegus wrote:Pyromancy? For reals?

Instead of tac marines, put him with some sternguard or assault centurions if you can stomach the looks/fluff of the latter. EDIT: Scratch that, can't take centurions in a drop pod. So no need to suffer.

Do you usually play at 1500 points? Feels painfully small.

Pyromancy was really just an off-the-top-of-my-head idea, I do like it in a flamer pod as the Primaris is essentially an assault Heavy Flamer, and being able to put 2 templates down on the drop (3 if I use a combi on the sarge) is nice. I might go for telepathy for Shriek or on Biomancy for attempted buffs, it just depends on what I'm up against and what mood I'm in. At ML2 I generally go for Pyro Primaris and then Telepathy or Biomancy for the second. I like having a shooting power just so he can still do something in the turn where he drop (can't cast blessings from reserve)

I agree dropping him in with sternguard is a great idea, and something I'll certainly do once I have the models. At the moment, I'm using him with the tacs just because that's the best option with what I have.

I usually play at 1000 actually, but anywhere up to 2000 is fairly common depending on how long we've got and how many players are there. I went for 1500 here just because it's a good middle ground and I can add/remove stuff from there.

After you playtest that list you may find the jokaeros do not end up doing much use for their expense and the psykers are too erratic. If that is what happens, I would suggest you got rid of the jokaeros and trimmed down the 10-man acolyte unit so you'd be able to fit in another psyker squad just like the others. Then you'll terrify your opponent

I must admit I'm interested to see how the Jokearo turn out, I get the impression they're going to be fun if a little random, and at worst gives the squad some fire-power outside 24".

I may try and fit in another psyker squad in place of something, my lists are always very fluid and rarely the same from game to game, so there will be a lot of variation with this eventually. If I bring IG allies instead of SM, I may being some IG psykers as well. Psykers everywhere!

 Paradigm wrote:
I must admit I'm interested to see how the Jokearo turn out, I get the impression they're going to be fun if a little random, and at worst gives the squad some fire-power outside 24".

I may try and fit in another psyker squad in place of something, my lists are always very fluid and rarely the same from game to game, so there will be a lot of variation with this eventually. If I bring IG allies instead of SM, I may being some IG psykers as well. Psykers everywhere!

Best thing about Jokaero...overwatch...oh...and then jumping in front of power weapons with their 5+ invuln

I've found coatez and 5 jaokero along with some meatshields in a chimera do rather well. Especially if you roll a 4 on the divination power chart. Maybe if your ballsy going for a larger number of jokero with some crusaders for shields. I use fantasy empire swordsmen for crusaders. My crusaders are rich fops. I converted axes onto many of them to give them the strength bonus since they would likely be swinging last in combat anyway. Possibly mix in a couple servitors with heavy bolters and a plasma cannon.

It's the echo chamber effect. Someone with a high post-count said "Space marines are weak now. *SAGE NOD* 3+ is the new 5+" and everyone just started repeating it.

As a player of both Space Marines and Tau, I can tell you that the difference between the durability of a T3 4+ unit vs. a T4 3+ unit isn't even comparable. And that's not even taking into account ATSKNF.

Anyway, I'm a huge fan of Coteaz armies with weird/interesting warbands. I've been toying around with going 5-points for bolters, using DKOK models and blinging out their lasguns to look like Inquisition-issue laz0r guns. Haven't pulled the trigger on it yet, though.

But Inquisitorial goons in gas masks would be sexy.

CDRAlbrecht wrote:
But Inquisitorial goons in gas masks would be sexy.

True DAT.

CDRAlbrecht wrote:
It's the echo chamber effect. Someone with a high post-count said "Space marines are weak now. *SAGE NOD* 3+ is the new 5+" and everyone just started repeating it.

As a player of both Space Marines and Tau, I can tell you that the difference between the durability of a T3 4+ unit vs. a T4 3+ unit isn't even comparable. And that's not even taking into account ATSKNF.

Slightly off-topic: to be honest, I can see where the idea comes from when considering the competitive meta as a whole. Heldrakes don't care whether you have a 3+ or 4+, and neither do eldar rending-everything. The difference is you pay more for a 3+ than a 4+, but die just the same. So in terms of the durability of marines in the general meta, there is a lot more AP3 around which renders the points you pay for the save wasted.

However, it's not something I've seen on a local level, so while I can see that there are some merits to the argument, it's not something that I'm particularly worried about. And it certainly does suffer from an echo effect, but so do most perceptions about the game like 'assault is dead' and 'Vendettas are the only IG FA choice'.

And the idea for DKOK Inq'ed up is ultra-cool!

trust me, post count does not = right. I remember being a chapter master on portent while here, I'm a fresh faced person. lol
I think it is more "sucking up", than just agreeing. lol
Wargames Factory has a decent looking greatcoat/gas mask model for a good price. I use some for veterans and can tell you they work well converted with plasma, melta guns and flamers and the heavy weapons guys don't look bad sitting next to heavy weapons either. There is a guy at our local shop that uses them converted with bolters and they do indeed look nice.
I use fantasy empire swordsmen as crusaders (some with axes) to make my crusaders lok like rich fops. The other guy uses brettonian halberdiers which have more of a steampunky look. We both use dark elder witches with grey knight falchions as death cult assassins and to be honest, I think they look the part.

I thought long and hard about what to use as jokero (no way was I paying that much money for as many as I wanted to try out). my first thought was to get a "barrel of monkeys" and glue them to bases (decided against it for fear of them looking TOO silly compared to my other serious models). My next was to buy a bunch of dollar store zoo animal bags and glue the gorillas from them onto bases (but they looked too buff for my liking). I ended up considering my jokero as smaller than average (spider monkey rather than orangutan sized. I then decided that if they were tech savvy enough to build the fancy rings, they could build their own lil transports. So I ended up using the giant servo skulls that come with the counter dice. Each one is painted up and based and houses a jokero. Not a bad counts as since they look like nothing else in my army (when I do use a servo skull, its actually a fantasy head mounted and based on a flying stand so even then, there is no confusing the two. Some local guys got pissy but I think they were just mad cause they had blown over $100 on thiers and didn't want to see me get them cheap. the local store owner loves them and they are perfectly legit (more so than the Wargames Factory stormtroopers used as henchmen because these are actual "GW" models.

EVIL INC wrote:
trust me, post count does not = right. I remember being a chapter master on portent while here, I'm a fresh faced person. lol
I think it is more "sucking up", than just agreeing. lol
Wargames Factory has a decent looking greatcoat/gas mask model for a good price. I use some for veterans and can tell you they work well converted with plasma, melta guns and flamers and the heavy weapons guys don't look bad sitting next to heavy weapons either. There is a guy at our local shop that uses them converted with bolters and they do indeed look nice.
I use fantasy empire swordsmen as crusaders (some with axes) to make my crusaders lok like rich fops. The other guy uses brettonian halberdiers which have more of a steampunky look. We both use dark elder witches with grey knight falchions as death cult assassins and to be honest, I think they look the part.

I thought long and hard about what to use as jokero (no way was I paying that much money for as many as I wanted to try out). my first thought was to get a "barrel of monkeys" and glue them to bases (decided against it for fear of them looking TOO silly compared to my other serious models). My next was to buy a bunch of dollar store zoo animal bags and glue the gorillas from them onto bases (but they looked too buff for my liking). I ended up considering my jokero as smaller than average (spider monkey rather than orangutan sized. I then decided that if they were tech savvy enough to build the fancy rings, they could build their own lil transports. So I ended up using the giant servo skulls that come with the counter dice. Each one is painted up and based and houses a jokero. Not a bad counts as since they look like nothing else in my army (when I do use a servo skull, its actually a fantasy head mounted and based on a flying stand so even then, there is no confusing the two. Some local guys got pissy but I think they were just mad cause they had blown over $100 on thiers and didn't want to see me get them cheap. the local store owner loves them and they are perfectly legit (more so than the Wargames Factory stormtroopers used as henchmen because these are actual "GW" models.

I came up with a simple solution actually!

I was really excite when I thought of it.

Techpriest.

The dude has a slew of digital weapons and not much know-how on how to use them...terrible save with a forceshield...I took them to when made a whole deathwatch army from purifiers and added henchmen stormtroopers with a techpriest/monkey.

I like that if your only using one or two and it fits in well with your fluff. If your using large numbers of them though, they are just as expensive as the finecast monkey. I have 12 of them my way for less than the price of 3 "official" models and I got the dice and tins to boot.

I'm certainly going to be counts-as-ing the monkeys with something ad-mechy. Ductvader, did you use the standard techpriest model or convert something?

I am not sure...this is him.

That's converted, and has given me a couple of ideas actually. Thanks.

 Paradigm wrote:
That's converted, and has given me a couple of ideas actually. Thanks.

Yes, I just don't remember what the original model is.


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...I have a lot of models just sitting around.

I think that somewhere under there is the IG techpriest model but with arm swaps and some extra bits added.

 ductvader wrote:

CDRAlbrecht wrote:
But Inquisitorial goons in gas masks would be sexy.

True DAT.

While I always try to kitbash and use GW bits, sometimes GW doesn't have what I like. So for some of my henchmen with gasmasks I went with heads from Pig Iron Productions. Specifically the Kolony Militia ones if I recall correctly. Check them out if you are really into masks


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EVIL INC wrote:
I thought long and hard about what to use as jokero ... So I ended up using the giant servo skulls that come with the counter dice. Each one is painted up and based and houses a jokero. Not a bad counts as since they look like nothing else in my army (when I do use a servo skull, its actually a fantasy head mounted and based on a flying stand so even then, there is no confusing the two. Some local guys got pissy but I think they were just mad cause they had blown over $100 on thiers and didn't want to see me get them cheap. the local store owner loves them and they are perfectly legit (more so than the Wargames Factory stormtroopers used as henchmen because these are actual "GW" models.

That idea is awesome. I went with skaven for the bodies, either skaven or dward arms, random GW bits for their ridiculously hobbled together guns, and some, and slightly modified third party werewolf heads which ended up looking surprisingly like gorilla heads at the end.

Ah, using skaven. There's an idea. I have a ton lying around from IOB, and while I've used some for a mutant acolyte watband, using them for the apes is a great idea.

henchmen with bolters are the bomb diggity, 5 pts for abolter? yes please, I take them 12x6 squads... maybe with a single jokaro in each squad, maybe with 2 units with ST bolters, but the core of bolter henchmen is awesome, 5 pts for a ld8 guardsmen with a bolter, I will buy that all day.

 easysauce wrote:
henchmen with bolters are the bomb diggity, 5 pts for abolter? yes please, I take them 12x6 squads... maybe with a single jokaro in each squad, maybe with 2 units with ST bolters, but the core of bolter henchmen is awesome, 5 pts for a ld8 guardsmen with a bolter, I will buy that all day.

I've been running them 3 plasma guns 2 storm bolters and 7 bolters and they work great. My only complaint about the unit is that I run out of troops under force org.

So with codex:inq now out, what I've seen so far may well mean I need to change the plan here. It seems that, one way or another, I'm going to need to run them as GK with Coteaz to get the 6 warbands, as it would appear that codex:inq only works as a pseudo-allied detachment, as it's 0-2 HQ and 0-3 Elites. If there's something I'm missing there then can someone please correct it, but from the discussion in N&R it seems that's how it works. I've seen mentioned that when taken as primary the Warbands become scoring, and it can ally with itself, but I'm not quite sure how that works. So, a few questions:

1) Can I take C:I primary allied with C:I allies and get 6 scoring units/max 4 inquisitors and still take normal allies?

2) If I am running just one allied detachment as per the new rules (2 inqs, 3 warbands) then what units, from the ones from my list on the last page, would you pick?

3) Are priests now worth taking in a DCA/Crusader squad for the re-rolls on attacks or saves?

1-Yes
2-Only like units #3 
3-yes

Thanks. Good to know this army can still work without Coteaz being needed. I know he's great but I'm not a fan, he just doesn't fit the fluff of my inquisitors and I'd rather not counts-as.

Are you guys *sure* you can take the Inquisition as the primary and also have an inquisition detachment at the same time? I've read in a couple of places that wasn't allowed, comments from people I mean, not from the codex