Formosa wrote:
...triptide...

Another riptide on drugs. I think we need to get them into a program.

 Formosa wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Vox-Casters, Grenade Launchers, LRBT with sponsons and Vets with shotguns.

Not only are they useless but they'll actually damage your chances at winning if you take them.

Garbage, sorry mate but it is, I have used grenade launchers since 3rd and there still good and cheap, sponsons on executioners are also great, vox casters I agree with, shotguns are good for pre charges, yes guard can still do that to tie up stuff, just because it's not some triptide serp spam no trainer doesn't mean it utterly useless

Grenade Launchers would be good if they were free but you have to pay 5 more points just give a guardsman a blast Lasgun. A single lasgun shot doesn't amount to much even if it is small blast. You could use the krak grenade but at the point you might as well splurge 10 more points and get another shot, +1S and +2 AP. 5 points may sound cheap but it's about 10% of the squad's cost (Carrier cost as some like to call it) just to give it a small blast template and a S6 AP4 shot. And now that you can throw grenades for free you pretty are just paying for that S6 AP4 shot. That's 24 inches. Things that want to get within 24" of your guard units typically won't be afraid of that.

I didn't mean Leman Russ tanks as whole. I meant the ordinance russes due to the special new rules for them. I always run sponsons on my non ordinance russes since they give a good boost in firepower for not a lot more points on a durable platform.

Also, Veterans are terrible CC units. Even if you give them Carapace they are just guardsmen with a 4+ save. Sure, you can use them to mess up Tau if their gunline is ruined but still you could've just shot them too.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Also, Veterans are terrible CC units. Even if you give them Carapace they are just guardsmen with a 4+ save. Sure, you can use them to mess up Tau if their gunline is ruined but still you could've just shot them too.

You know what always catches me by surprise?

Penal Legion...they always seem to deal some kind of heavy blow to me every time I face them.

Why would you say vox casters and GL are bad? Please explain... I like both of them

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Vox-Casters, Grenade Launchers, LRBT with sponsons and Vets with shotguns.

Not only are they useless but they'll actually damage your chances at winning if you take them.

Garbage, sorry mate but it is, I have used grenade launchers since 3rd and there still good and cheap, sponsons on executioners are also great, vox casters I agree with, shotguns are good for pre charges, yes guard can still do that to tie up stuff, just because it's not some triptide serp spam no trainer doesn't mean it utterly useless

Grenade Launchers would be good if they were free but you have to pay 5 more points just give a guardsman a blast Lasgun. A single lasgun shot doesn't amount to much even if it is small blast. You could use the krak grenade but at the point you might as well splurge 10 more points and get another shot, +1S and +2 AP. 5 points may sound cheap but it's about 10% of the squad's cost (Carrier cost as some like to call it) just to give it a small blast template and a S6 AP4 shot. And now that you can throw grenades for free you pretty are just paying for that S6 AP4 shot. That's 24 inches. Things that want to get within 24" of your guard units typically won't be afraid of that.

I didn't mean Leman Russ tanks as whole. I meant the ordinance russes due to the special new rules for them. I always run sponsons on my non ordinance russes since they give a good boost in firepower for not a lot more points on a durable platform.

Also, Veterans are terrible CC units. Even if you give them Carapace they are just guardsmen with a 4+ save. Sure, you can use them to mess up Tau if their gunline is ruined but still you could've just shot them too.

the standard Russ does indeed suck since the faq, vets are terrible units correct, but if you use them as a speedbumb to a assault marine squad or some other fast moving unit, it can get you an extra turn before your hit, shotguns are perfect for this role, grenade launchers again are worth the 5 pts, 15pts for 3 str6 ap4 shots combined with the autocannon is very good at taking out transports, again just because tdb's don't use them doesn't mean there not a good choice, any mindless chimp could come up with triptide spam, serp spam and dw th/ss spam, I dislike most spam lists, competitive or not.

In general I'll be happy to help anyone make use of anything they want to put in their lists. I tend to avoid anything for armies I don't play or face regularly (ie. I have no idea about) and won't really bother with anything containing the words 'Cheese', 'Spam'. 'OP' or 'ultra-competitive' in the title. I have no interest in playing the game in that manner, so wouldn't engage with a list like that enough to offer any advice. I take particular interest in anything that uses unusual or rarely seen choices.

In terms of replies, I must admit that when it comes down to 'x is terrible, bring y' and 'buy more of these, they are amazing' I get a little irked. I don't see the point in recommending something the OP has specifically left out or that does not fit the themes they specify, something I see far too often. It's also why I don't tend to post my own lists in that section.

 Formosa wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Vox-Casters, Grenade Launchers, LRBT with sponsons and Vets with shotguns.

Not only are they useless but they'll actually damage your chances at winning if you take them.

Garbage, sorry mate but it is, I have used grenade launchers since 3rd and there still good and cheap, sponsons on executioners are also great, vox casters I agree with, shotguns are good for pre charges, yes guard can still do that to tie up stuff, just because it's not some triptide serp spam no trainer doesn't mean it utterly useless

Grenade Launchers would be good if they were free but you have to pay 5 more points just give a guardsman a blast Lasgun. A single lasgun shot doesn't amount to much even if it is small blast. You could use the krak grenade but at the point you might as well splurge 10 more points and get another shot, +1S and +2 AP. 5 points may sound cheap but it's about 10% of the squad's cost (Carrier cost as some like to call it) just to give it a small blast template and a S6 AP4 shot. And now that you can throw grenades for free you pretty are just paying for that S6 AP4 shot. That's 24 inches. Things that want to get within 24" of your guard units typically won't be afraid of that.

I didn't mean Leman Russ tanks as whole. I meant the ordinance russes due to the special new rules for them. I always run sponsons on my non ordinance russes since they give a good boost in firepower for not a lot more points on a durable platform.

Also, Veterans are terrible CC units. Even if you give them Carapace they are just guardsmen with a 4+ save. Sure, you can use them to mess up Tau if their gunline is ruined but still you could've just shot them too.

the standard Russ does indeed suck since the faq, vets are terrible units correct, but if you use them as a speedbumb to a assault marine squad or some other fast moving unit, it can get you an extra turn before your hit, shotguns are perfect for this role, grenade launchers again are worth the 5 pts, 15pts for 3 str6 ap4 shots combined with the autocannon is very good at taking out transports, again just because tdb's don't use them doesn't mean there not a good choice, any mindless chimp could come up with triptide spam, serp spam and dw th/ss spam, I dislike most spam lists, competitive or not.

Spamming grenade launchers is still spam. But thats not here nor there since I find the term stupid. All militaries spam. Its called standardization.

You know, for 30 more points you not only get better penetration but you also get to a +1 on the damage chart. Not only that but it can double tap at half range, has the same strength as th autocannon and its the same range to boot. Heck, give them to vet squads and theyll mulch those assault marine squads. And you'll keep the vet squad to boot.

Since when are we playing a realistic military simulation game though?

Even the grimdark armies of 40k do it. Chimera spam lists are armored fist regiments. Drop pod spam is tactic called steel rain. Bike spam is what the white scars do.

When reading lists that are copied from Armybuilder etc. and list every piece of equipment and rule a models has

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Even the grimdark armies of 40k do it. Chimera spam lists are armored fist regiments. Drop pod spam is tactic called steel rain. Bike spam is what the white scars do.

To a point but when it's presented in the lore we're typically dealing with a lot more units than we do on the table.

And even in the real world military some variance does exist. Not every squad is kitted for anti-armor for instance.

I think spam is when the idea is to take as much as you can of what is considered the "must take" options in the book.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Even the grimdark armies of 40k do it. Chimera spam lists are armored fist regiments. Drop pod spam is tactic called steel rain. Bike spam is what the white scars do.

To a point but when it's presented in the lore we're typically dealing with a lot more units than we do on the table.

And even in the real world military some variance does exist. Not every squad is kitted for anti-armor for instance.

I think spam is when the idea is to take as much as you can of what is considered the "must take" options in the book.

My point is that spam makes sense from several points of view. Though, I will alter this with the exception of a gaming point of view when it comes to your definition of spam. It must get boring and stupid to have to fight the same exact units in the same exact army over and over again.

I wonder, do codex writers intend for it to happen or does it just does?

Where becomes the difference between suggesting and 'harassing' when commenting on an army list? In almost every DE army I see that wants to be competitive, I suggest taking an allied Farseer because it helps the army so much. Is that Netlisting? Is that cheese? Would I be squashing someone's free thinking by saying never take a dark lance in a warrior squad, even though you never should? If you put a list up and don't SPECIFICALLY say what kind of units you want to avoid, then why are you complaining about people giving you good advise (Yes taking 3 Riptides is good advise, just not always viable)?

I personally won't bat an eye at any list, because everylist is fine as long as its legal. Weather I'd play it or not is a different matter, why would I play a necron bakery in a pick up game when I don't bring my tourney list, its obviously wont be too fun. The only times I ever get annoyed with a list is when it just takes all the 'wrong' (Subjective) upgrades in all the 'wrong' places on all the 'wrong' units, then goes to me telling me how good his army list is. I don't wan to be a D*ck and correct him, but I can't stand it either, its a character flaw I am fully aware of

 ductvader wrote:
Lately I've just been browsing army lists and it's like.

Helldrakes
Wraith
Serpents
Riptides
Land Raiders
etc.

Where are those intelligent free thinkers?

Lol you seemed to enjoy my blast list.

My biggest eye-roll is the phrase "semi-competitive". That phrase tells me the person just wanted to post list and have everyone go oh yeah *circle jerk* that's a great amazing list its total competitive. But when people criticize it they are, " oh well didn't you read it was meant to be semi-competitive, not everyone wants a cheese list.

Another thing that is annoying me right now is it seems like if an IG doesn't have vendetta in it, its automatically declared not competitive

My eyes roll a bit at the list that is written as someone watches me pull models out of my case for a game.

Majsharan wrote:
Another thing that is annoying me right now is it seems like if an IG doesn't have vendetta in it, its automatically declared not competitive

I firmly believe that Vendettas will increase in pts cost and IG will see the first unique character pilot.

*fingers crossed for an amelia earhart pun worthy name for them*

 TheCustomLime wrote:


My point is that spam makes sense from several points of view. Though, I will alter this with the exception of a gaming point of view when it comes to your definition of spam. It must get boring and stupid to have to fight the same exact units in the same exact army over and over again.

I wonder, do codex writers intend for it to happen or does it just does?

I suspect that it is the inevitable consequence of writers not thinking through the codex. It happens because certain things are either "too good" for their price, or by comparison to the rest of the codex, they are the best viable option for their price.

The example I'm most familiar with is Blood Claws in the SW dex. In theory they sound neat, but in practice you'll never see them on anything but the most casual list. Why? Because they are the same price as Grey Hunters, who have better equipment, a better WS, BS, and better upgrades than they do. Between access to Mark of the Wulfen and the higher WS, they more than make up for the single extra attack Blood Claws get on the charge, and they can actually shoot.

Imagine the wonders we would have if, before a codex went to print, the writers sat down and went through unit by unit, upgrade by upgrade and said "Under what circumstances would this be a great choice?" and kept adjusting the points values / benefits / etc until they came up with an answer.

 reiner wrote:
My eyes roll a bit at the list that is written as someone watches me pull models out of my case for a game.

Man. That's just a dick move on their part. I'd probably just put my stuff away if they stared doing that.

 kronk wrote:

 reiner wrote:
My eyes roll a bit at the list that is written as someone watches me pull models out of my case for a game.

Man. That's just a dick move on their part. I'd probably just put my stuff away if they stared doing that.

Agreed, but sometimes they need to be shown the error of their ways through a fair fight. Especially fun if you pull out stuff you don't intend to use.

 reiner wrote:
My eyes roll a bit at the list that is written as someone watches me pull models out of my case for a game.

The better one is when you can see they have 3 or 4 lists and pick one just as you pull out your stuff.

 reiner wrote:
Especially fun if you pull out stuff you don't intend to use.

You. I like you. Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Even the grimdark armies of 40k do it. Chimera spam lists are armored fist regiments. Drop pod spam is tactic called steel rain. Bike spam is what the white scars do.

To a point but when it's presented in the lore we're typically dealing with a lot more units than we do on the table.

And even in the real world military some variance does exist. Not every squad is kitted for anti-armor for instance.

I think spam is when the idea is to take as much as you can of what is considered the "must take" options in the book.

My point is that spam makes sense from several points of view. Though, I will alter this with the exception of a gaming point of view when it comes to your definition of spam. It must get boring and stupid to have to fight the same exact units in the same exact army over and over again.

I wonder, do codex writers intend for it to happen or does it just does?

From what I gather they don't mean for it to happen, or else Quaddrakes wouldn't work as they do now. There is legend of someone showing one of the Devs a list from one of the big national tournamanets and they were less than excited about it.

double flyrants or flying circus with daemons. Reason why is theyre a rock paper scissors list. If you arent equipped to deal with it, odds are you just lost already. If you can deal with it, the nid/daemon player falls over quick.

i dislike list tailoring, my HBC riptide always has VT even if i know the person im going against rarely brings fliers because thats the way i run him. FMC spam forces list tailoring in order to deal with them, and when you tailor for them they dont stand a chance. (and before anyone says anything, my tau doesnt have an issue with these lists. its my orks that suffer)

Some lists are just tough to build without those units though.

I don't feel like I can have a fun or competative list without a Tervigon.

No unit should be like that.

I think much of this could be avoided with a beta rules release...as in GW purposefully gives a ruleset draft out to the public and opens a forum for ideas.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Even the grimdark armies of 40k do it. Chimera spam lists are armored fist regiments. Drop pod spam is tactic called steel rain. Bike spam is what the white scars do.

To a point but when it's presented in the lore we're typically dealing with a lot more units than we do on the table.

And even in the real world military some variance does exist. Not every squad is kitted for anti-armor for instance.

I think spam is when the idea is to take as much as you can of what is considered the "must take" options in the book.

My point is that spam makes sense from several points of view. Though, I will alter this with the exception of a gaming point of view when it comes to your definition of spam. It must get boring and stupid to have to fight the same exact units in the same exact army over and over again.

I wonder, do codex writers intend for it to happen or does it just does?

From what I gather they don't mean for it to happen, or else Quaddrakes wouldn't work as they do now. There is legend of someone showing one of the Devs a list from one of the big national tournamanets and they were less than excited about it.

Maybe they should learn how to balance the game then, maybe update online to help out poorer lists...

But they don't, so we get things like this.

They come out and say the game is designed for narrative play and people still insist on using it for tournaments.

That's like complaining that you can't use a knife as a hammer you know.

Spam is hard to define. My Imperial Guard army Only has plasma weapons. Every special weapon is plasma including officers and tanks etc. Why? Because i like the look of glowing plasma. What i would love to see is a change in player attitudes.

But what really annoys me is when I see people who take net lists and tell people they must take valkaries etc (pedigrene cough) but then go on to talk about how everybody needs to paint their army to forge a narrative. Now this is so annoying because what Tau army would actually field 3 Riptides in such a small force for example?

In my opinion armies should be made with a theme. I have an army of strict praetorian line infantry. Being incredibly strict in their military disciplin they have a penal legion for the slovenly soldiers who cant behave. Brits also had merc back in that era so i use the old kroot as a unit in my army. But i still spam plasma.

People just have to find a balance in theme (which means having units you enjoy) and spam.

So I guess its the huge lack of creativity, a huge amount of exploitation and the goal of peoples army lists coupled with the comments made by others that really irk me. For example its all good to take lots of vandettas but there should be a reason, most vandetta lists arent even themed as air cavalry lists. They just have them because they "need them". All in all its the attitude i see in the army list section that stops me going to tournaments.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Spam is hard to define.

That's true.

Last tournament I won my list had every Tyranid special character in it.

Hero spam / character spam?

Sort of...but the tyranid characters are all inherently very very different in their purpose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also know a mech IG player who wanted to fill the air with lead and so he took any upgrade that on any vehicle that gave him more shots...spam-ish.

My Space Marine lists usually have 2 or 3 Tactical Squads with Rhinos.

ZOMG! I R Spammer!

 kronk wrote:
My Space Marine lists usually have 2 or 3 Tactical Squads with Rhinos.

ZOMG! I R Spammer!

Id only consider that "negative spamming" if you took minimum squad sizes to max how many transports you could take.

I've got a fairly narrow definition of Spam (the lazy copy/pasting to fill a list with as many of "must have" or "broken" units as you can for the sole purpose to make it easier to win instead of building to be to a theme or generally be creative), but I will admit that it can vary from person to person.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I've got a fairly narrow definition of Spam (the lazy copy/pasting to fill a list with as many of "must have" or "broken" units as you can for the sole purpose to make it easier to win instead of building to be to a theme or generally be creative), but I will admit that it can vary from person to person.

Exactly, it should be a case by case thing. It should be theme first and always. If both players do that then the game is fairly balanced. Mostly

Themed armies are 100x cooler than any army that wants to run 4 Riptides.

Agreed, i noticed people get way more into the game (in a good way) when they are buidling themed lists too. I almost left 40k then i descovered how much fun it was to theme my army and people notice it. (i used to power game a bit... ) Added to that was the people who where playing around me started to do the same. If everyone started to do it im sure so many people would come back to the hobby and GW wouldnt be as inclined to bring out big OP models every release.

 reiner wrote:
Especially fun if you pull out stuff you don't intend to use.

A friend of mine did this to one of the local power gamers at our FLGS not too long ago. He has two armies, so when his opponent showed up, they saw the parts of one army sitting out on another table and quickly drew up a list to counter it. When they started setting up for their game, he pulled the actual army he was using out of his box. His opponent actually tried to rewrite his list again but got shut down!

My pet peeve is being told that Army X absolutely needs Unit Y to be even remotely playable (such as Chaos Daemons with Fateweaver).

I don't think GW makes anything they intend to be OP, I think they just try to make cool and fun things for people to play and it just happens to be OP in competitive play because of the way the game is played versus how it's meant to be played.

Going back to the idea earlier of the fantasy format, then someone mentioned it wouldn't help with serpent spam, then another suggestion was a certain % for transport.

Well, limiting transports would invalidate certain mech lists which are always cool just on a fluff level, but serpents need to be nerfed, well the solution is a bit obvious isn't it? Each transport would be put in it's own category, so Land Raiders and serpents would be rare, razorbacks would be special, rhino's would be core etc etc. You would just get rid of the idea of unit transports, the transport would be bought and used how you see fit, transporting who you want, when you want.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't think GW makes anything they intend to be OP, I think they just try to make cool and fun things for people to play and it just happens to be OP in competitive play because of the way the game is played versus how it's meant to be played.

Arguably but its a little suspicious as it always happens. Im sure you'll agree that they at least dont learn from their mistakes.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Going back to the idea earlier of the fantasy format, then someone mentioned it wouldn't help with serpent spam, then another suggestion was a certain % for transport.

Well, limiting transports would invalidate certain mech lists which are always cool just on a fluff level, but serpents need to be nerfed, well the solution is a bit obvious isn't it? Each transport would be put in it's own category, so Land Raiders and serpents would be rare, razorbacks would be special, rhino's would be core etc etc. You would just get rid of the idea of unit transports, the transport would be bought and used how you see fit, transporting who you want, when you want.

So the FOC gets much more complicated? I can't see that being a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't think GW makes anything they intend to be OP, I think they just try to make cool and fun things for people to play and it just happens to be OP in competitive play because of the way the game is played versus how it's meant to be played.

Arguably but its a little suspicious as it always happens. Im sure you'll agree that they at least dont learn from their mistakes.

Assuming they think that they even made mistakes. Remember they operate off of what they think is cool.

Maybe just making transports a bit more generic with fewer special rules would be better balance wise

 Swastakowey wrote:
Spam is hard to define. My Imperial Guard army Only has plasma weapons. Every special weapon is plasma including officers and tanks etc. Why? Because i like the look of glowing plasma. What i would love to see is a change in player attitudes.

But what really annoys me is when I see people who take net lists and tell people they must take valkaries etc (pedigrene cough) but then go on to talk about how everybody needs to paint their army to forge a narrative. Now this is so annoying because what Tau army would actually field 3 Riptides in such a small force for example?

In my opinion armies should be made with a theme. I have an army of strict praetorian line infantry. Being incredibly strict in their military disciplin they have a penal legion for the slovenly soldiers who cant behave. Brits also had merc back in that era so i use the old kroot as a unit in my army. But i still spam plasma.

People just have to find a balance in theme (which means having units you enjoy) and spam.

So I guess its the huge lack of creativity, a huge amount of exploitation and the goal of peoples army lists coupled with the comments made by others that really irk me. For example its all good to take lots of vandettas but there should be a reason, most vandetta lists arent even themed as air cavalry lists. They just have them because they "need them". All in all its the attitude i see in the army list section that stops me going to tournaments.

Its not your fault that GW made it so the only ranged anti-meq/teq that the IG has thats not ordinance is plasma. Its also not your fault that plasma also works against vechs. Plasma is simply the best choice for a ranged do it all weapon that IG has.

I think a points costing system is needed fairly desperately to balance things out a bit. That way it all works off the same "scale".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something like WS/BS/S/T 2 LD5 model is 1 points and then for every two points you change on the stat (combined) it goes up by a certain amount (rounding up and never down), and for each rule and piece of basic wargear you add you add a point.

Of course this would take some fine tuning to really work out but that's the basic idea I have at least.

ductvader wrote:Some lists are just tough to build without those units though.

I don't feel like I can have a fun or competative list without a Tervigon.

No unit should be like that.

I think much of this could be avoided with a beta rules release...as in GW purposefully gives a ruleset draft out to the public and opens a forum for ideas.

True, but a Tervigon isnt a Flyrant, or two Flyrants for that matter.

MCs arent the issue, its spamming them and especially the flying ones. Flyrants are the only nid MC that gives my orks one hell of a time, as the swarmlord never reaches me and the rest get swomped by 80boyz lol. I never see daemons take only one or two big daemons, its always full out flying circus or none at all. Considering how insanely expensive flying daemons are, im kinda shocked that i see that lol.

Oddly enough, this goes into the spam debate. Spamming to me is taking an unusual number of something depending on the points. Troops excluded for obvious reasons, but if you send a couple Tervigons and Flyrants at me in a 1250pt game im going to say youre MC spamming and praying i dont have weapons to deal with them, which at 1250 i probably dont. Same goes for riptides in my case, running 1 is fine, 2 below 1500 or 3 below 2500 is spam to me. Any other is the same idea as the nids i gave, im banking on you not having enough to deal with them. If the game isnt challenging, im not having fun. I dont like steamrolling my opponent because i spammed a big unit he wasnt expecting or prepared for this time and he didnt stand a chance because its 0 challenge.

Things that look "gimmicky" usually are my "eye roller" things. I can live with things like wave serpent spam if I must, even though they're hideously broken, because, well, they fit the army and aren't relying on janky combo's to be powerful but rather their own special rules. Triple helldrake is eye-rolling, but a lot of that also has to do with how much of a crutch that is for the army.

Things that I hate most are stuff like Mantle of the Laughing God on a jetbike for a 2+cover save in the open, 2++rerollable daemons, janky riptide drone unit-type changing shennanigans, prescience artillery combos, allies shennanigans, etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Things that I hate most are stuff like Mantle of the Laughing God on a jetbike for a 2+cover save in the open

The Solitaire should just be considered a character by now...haha.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They come out and say the game is designed for narrative play and people still insist on using it for tournaments.

That's like complaining that you can't use a knife as a hammer you know.

If they were competent designers it could be used for either. Its more akin to whining that the super expensive smart phone you got can only be used to browse facebook since itll freeze if used to look at anything else.

Then again, if they were competent we'd lose YMDC and half the topics on Tactics.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They come out and say the game is designed for narrative play and people still insist on using it for tournaments.

That's like complaining that you can't use a knife as a hammer you know.

If they were competent designers it could be used for either. Its more akin to whining that the super expensive smart phone you got can only be used to browse facebook since itll freeze if used to look at anything else.

Knives shouldn't be used as hammers, no matter how well they're built.

Ideally it could be used for both, but I refuse to fault designers who are designing one thing for a specific purpose when it breaks if I use it for something else. It's not their fault I used it for something else besides its intended purpose.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Then again, if they were competent we'd lose YMDC and half the topics on Tactics.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Seriously though, even Warmachine has questions about the game. The only difference there is you have people in the company who have the authority to say how it should work to stop the rules arguments. We don't get that from GW because of how bad the forums were (I partially blame how they were run, and partially blame the members who were pants on head moronic and made it a cesspool).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
They come out and say the game is designed for narrative play and people still insist on using it for tournaments.

That's like complaining that you can't use a knife as a hammer you know.

If they were competent designers it could be used for either. Its more akin to whining that the super expensive smart phone you got can only be used to browse facebook since itll freeze if used to look at anything else.

Knives shouldn't be used as hammers, no matter how well they're built.

Ideally it could be used for both, but I refuse to fault designers who are designing one thing for a specific purpose when it breaks if I use it for something else. It's not their fault I used it for something else besides its intended purpose.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Then again, if they were competent we'd lose YMDC and half the topics on Tactics.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Seriously though, even Warmachine has questions about the game. The only difference there is you have people in the company who have the authority to say how it should work to stop the rules arguments. We don't get that from GW because of how bad the forums were (I partially blame how they were run, and partially blame the members who were pants on head moronic and made it a cesspool).

I can partially see your point since it is (what I believe) Gee Dubs said about their game. Though even for forging a narrative it's still poorly written. Who wants to read the story of the farseer that beat up the Ultramarines using big machines over and over? If the game was balanced itd make for far more engaging fiction.

About the forums, I think Games Workshop couldve made it the place where the explained their intent, got feedback for their rules and the place to settle disputes. Instead it buried its head in the sand. Thats very telling of a major gaming company.

Anyone got links to archives of the gw forums? I want to see this.

Mechvets, Nidzilla, Deathwing, Tau gunline, Necron gunline. Does anybody even field anything else these days? I haven't been to Tabletop in months for just that reason. Have an original though already, for feth's sake!

I've never heard good things about the community in those forums sadly so I can't place the full blame on GW for pulling out. Everytime they do something that some don't like the get hammered by people (mostly Americans) flipping their gak all over the place.

I can't blame anyone for not wanting to deal with that, especially not directly.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I've never heard good things about the community in those forums sadly so I can't place the full blame on GW for pulling out. Everytime they do something that some don't like the get hammered by people (mostly Americans) flipping their gak all over the place.

I can't blame anyone for not wanting to deal with that, especially not directly.

I believe TVtropes has an article on this phenomenon "This is why the fandom cant have nice things". So, you are right on that account. But then one must question if 40k had a pleasable fanbase or not. I would say yes, myself.

I'd say that it is not 100% "please-able" and never has been. Stories of complaining about GW's actions back on BBS attest to that.

"Hi Im a CSM player, and I took 3 Decimator Siege Engine in my Elite slots + Daemon Detachment Allies for a total of 4."

Lets play a 2k game!!

I don't get this hate against spam. I love spam. I can't stand armies that consist of a hodgepodge of units.

I could make an Eldar army consisting of an HQ dude, some green Scorpions, some Red Fire Dragons, some Blue Dire Avengers, some black Guardians, a couple of black tanks, some white Shining Spears, a black Vyper and a red Crimson Hunter, but I don't and I won't because that army doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.

If I run Vypers, I run six of them. Because I love Vypers, and I love having tons of them. Same goes for Wave Serpents. I have four and I use four.

I've run a Sanguinary Guard army in the past with 20 of the little fellas, and I'm currently building a Farsight Enclaves army with nothing but battle suits.


I love these armies, and they look amazing on the table top.

And when I run into dickheads who whine about spam, I know who to not play against.

Thud, your defenition of spam is different than mine it seems. I don't care if you took 3 or 4 of something because you like playing it and it looks cool and is fluffy, I call "spam" on the guy who took 4 Riptides for the mechanical advantage they give his army.

In my eyes there is a big difference between the two and their intents.

Thud wrote:
I don't get this hate against spam. I love spam. I can't stand armies that consist of a hodgepodge of units.

I could make an Eldar army consisting of an HQ dude, some green Scorpions, some Red Fire Dragons, some Blue Dire Avengers, some black Guardians, a couple of black tanks, some white Shining Spears, a black Vyper and a red Crimson Hunter, but I don't and I won't because that army doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.

If I run Vypers, I run six of them. Because I love Vypers, and I love having tons of them. Same goes for Wave Serpents. I have four and I use four.

I've run a Sanguinary Guard army in the past with 20 of the little fellas, and I'm currently building a Farsight Enclaves army with nothing but battle suits.


I love these armies, and they look amazing on the table top.

And when I run into dickheads who whine about spam, I know who to not play against.

We keep talking about theme. If you like the idea of having 6 vypers go on and do it. But if you just take them because you wanna crush your enemy quickly and you are exploiting it without real reason besides winning thats where people like us have a problem. Exploitation is not what you are doing. Which is good.

Thud wrote:


I've run a Sanguinary Guard army in the past with 20 of the little fellas, and I'm currently building a Farsight Enclaves army with nothing but battle suits.

Dante and Farsight were both specifically designed to allows players to play fluffy armies based around a theme.

There is a massive difference between running armies with spammable troops and infantry, than running armies that contain 4 Riptides.. 4 Drakes, 4 Decimators...

The difference being that Infantry are counterable by equal amounts of fire for an equal amount of point investment.

A MC with a 2+ NEED dedication to being destroyed and that usually costs a good chunk of your army in order to do so... How do you kill 4 Riptides? Well... you could bring 3 Tri-Las-Preds and ally for a second one... and then only kill 1 per turn....

How do you kill 4 Decimators?... Well you could bring 4 Riptides and hope to god you blow 1-2 of them up before they str10 AP1 pie plate your entire table edge to oblivion...

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Thud, your defenition of spam is different than mine it seems. I don't care if you took 3 or 4 of something because you like playing it and it looks cool and is fluffy, I call "spam" on the guy who took 4 Riptides for the mechanical advantage they give his army.

In my eyes there is a big difference between the two and their intents.

But how do you know my intent?

Four Riptides is something that really appeals to me. Same goes for three Wraithknights.

My Farsight list only has two Riptides, but that's only because I wanted so many other things in it as well. If I didn't like Broadsides and Hazard suits, I would have at least three. And it would be because I think they are awesome, not because they are good, but what does that really matter to you?

Because my approach to the game might make our match more enjoyable? Maybe so, but my most enjoyable games of 40k have all been against power gamers with hardcore lists they took simply because it was the best. Not saying that all power gamers are awesome guys, just that they aren't necessarily dicks.

I like symmetry, so every list MUST have 4 land raiders.

Funny you should say that, as I actually have a four Land Raider army.

Thud wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Thud, your defenition of spam is different than mine it seems. I don't care if you took 3 or 4 of something because you like playing it and it looks cool and is fluffy, I call "spam" on the guy who took 4 Riptides for the mechanical advantage they give his army.

In my eyes there is a big difference between the two and their intents.

But how do you know my intent?

If I know you, then it's because I know the kind of player you are. If not I ask what kind of game you want. If you say "tournament" then I step back and point you towards someone else because I play casual.

And if you get a gak-eating grin on your face when you plot 4 Riptides on the table I pack up right there.

There are clues to these kinds of things.

Thud wrote:
Four Riptides is something that really appeals to me. Same goes for three Wraithknights.

It breaks the fluff for me as both of those are described as being pretty uncommon if not rare for both armies. If we play Apoc, bring it on, but in a 1.5K game I won't play against that. It's just no fun for me.

Thud wrote:
My Farsight list only has two Riptides, but that's only because I wanted so many other things in it as well. If I didn't like Broadsides and Hazard suits, I would have at least three. And it would be because I think they are awesome, not because they are good, but what does that really matter to you?

To me it matters as it affects what kind of game we'd be playing. I play casually and want a good game and don't take the time to bring my heavy metal army to the table to get curbstomped every week.

Thud wrote:
Because my approach to the game might make our match more enjoyable? Maybe so, but my most enjoyable games of 40k have all been against power gamers with hardcore lists they took simply because it was the best. Not saying that all power gamers are awesome guys, just that they aren't necessarily dicks.

4 Riptides would not be "more enjoyable" for me. I play Sisters. That'd just be kicking me while I'm down. Now if I brought 4 Heldrakes or 3 Wraithknights you'd have an arguement.

*High Five*

That's fair enough.

By the way, though, even though I'd prefer tournament level games, I'm always more than happy to play casual, as I love to get in games where my poor Blood Angels actually stand a chance.

I have played multiple people who use nearly identical lists, all of the ones I listed in my previous post. The only person I've played recently who didn't use one of these lists was a noob with an ebay Eldar list who I beat easily, because it was his first game. I like the novelty factor of playing against a variety of different threats, not just the mechanical action of repeating the same thing over and over. Then it feels less like a hobby and more like work, and I don't play 40K because I want it to feel like work.

Thud wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Thud, your defenition of spam is different than mine it seems. I don't care if you took 3 or 4 of something because you like playing it and it looks cool and is fluffy, I call "spam" on the guy who took 4 Riptides for the mechanical advantage they give his army.

In my eyes there is a big difference between the two and their intents.

But how do you know my intent?

Four Riptides is something that really appeals to me. Same goes for three Wraithknights.

My Farsight list only has two Riptides, but that's only because I wanted so many other things in it as well. If I didn't like Broadsides and Hazard suits, I would have at least three. And it would be because I think they are awesome, not because they are good, but what does that really matter to you?

Because my approach to the game might make our match more enjoyable? Maybe so, but my most enjoyable games of 40k have all been against power gamers with hardcore lists they took simply because it was the best. Not saying that all power gamers are awesome guys, just that they aren't necessarily dicks.

In my experience there are very few non dickish power gamers. But then my reply to you is would you weaken your list to make a match more enjoyable? There are lots of things in my eldar army i like (however i dont spam) but i wont combo my apsects to kill quickly. Nobody likes a game where someone is doomed to loose from the start. Where is the fun in that? Also why on earth would any army from a fluff standpoint field armies like that? Your list with multiple riptides etc is NOT THEMED therefore id just point you to another player of your species What you gotta understand is that it does get to a point where spam stops being themed and interesting and becomes powergaming.

 Swastakowey wrote:
In my experience there are very few non dickish power gamers.

My experience is the exact opposite.

But then my reply to you is would you weaken your list to make a match more enjoyable?

Yes.

I actually played in a tournament about a month ago, and a guy at my club wanted to play a game against the list I took with me doing my absolute best to beat him so he could learn. I tabled him in two turns and in return took one wound on my Riptide due to a failed nova charge. It was awful. Ironically, he enjoyed the lesson, but I hated it.

What you gotta understand is that it does get to a point where spam stops being themed and interesting and becomes powergaming.

But it is themed, and interesting is highly subjective.

GoliothOnline wrote:
"Hi Im a CSM player, and I took 3 Decimator Siege Engine in my Elite slots + Daemon Detachment Allies for a total of 4."

Lets play a 2k game!!

Decimators are scary? News to me, they are pretty average.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
"Hi Im a CSM player, and I took 3 Decimator Siege Engine in my Elite slots + Daemon Detachment Allies for a total of 4."

Lets play a 2k game!!

Decimators are scary? News to me, they are pretty average.

I think you summed up some of my feeling about how people perceive spamming units. I don't think anyone would bat an eye at 3 forgefiends, but would likely take exception with 3 heldrakes. The perceived value of the units is a part of whether some consider it spam or not.

Difference being, your shooti army staying as far away as possible from me is going to be more than 42" from me, so my str 10 AP 1 Large Blast if going to hurt you a lot more over 2 turns than my Heldrakes that have to wait until turn 2 to get 1 (if any) turn of good torrenting.

I think people over estimate how powerful that is in comparison to a marsh mellow roaster.

Another isssue is the huge lack of variation in lists. My friend goes to tournaments and frequently comes across exactly the same lists. Granted he plays fantasy but they have the same problems as 40k does.

GoliothOnline wrote:

How do you kill 4 Decimators?... Well you could bring 4 Riptides and hope to god you blow 1-2 of them up before they str10 AP1 pie plate your entire table edge to oblivion...

Wait..what?

Are we talking about the same Decimator here?

They only get those S10 Ap1 pieplates for a very high cost, and only works if you're over 42" away.

Decimators are thoroughly mediocre units at best.

Thud wrote:
That's fair enough.

By the way, though, even though I'd prefer tournament level games, I'm always more than happy to play casual, as I love to get in games where my poor Blood Angels actually stand a chance.

Sisters do very well against Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

I don't mind people who play competitively, I just mind when they bring their hardest tournament lists into what should be a fun pick up game. That's why I try to communicate the game I'm looking for ahead of time.

 Vaktathi wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

How do you kill 4 Decimators?... Well you could bring 4 Riptides and hope to god you blow 1-2 of them up before they str10 AP1 pie plate your entire table edge to oblivion...

Wait..what?

Are we talking about the same Decimator here?

They only get those S10 Ap1 pieplates for a very high cost, and only works if you're over 42" away.

Decimators are thoroughly mediocre units at best.

230 points
Daemon Save 5++
Ignores weapon destroyed + Immobilized on a 5+
Have a chance each turn to come back to life on a 6 with D3 of its hull points restored and any weapons are no longer destroyed
for 25 point you have It will not die
aaaand between 18" - 42" you still cause str 8 ap 4 large blasts
and dont forget your Siege Claw has a built in Heavy Flamer.

GoliothOnline wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

How do you kill 4 Decimators?... Well you could bring 4 Riptides and hope to god you blow 1-2 of them up before they str10 AP1 pie plate your entire table edge to oblivion...

Wait..what?

Are we talking about the same Decimator here?

They only get those S10 Ap1 pieplates for a very high cost, and only works if you're over 42" away.

Decimators are thoroughly mediocre units at best.

230 points
Daemon Save 5++
Ignores weapon destroyed + Immobilized on a 5+
Have a chance each turn to come back to life on a 6 with D3 of its hull points restored and any weapons are no longer destroyed
for 25 point you have It will not die
aaaand between 18" - 42" you still cause str 8 ap 4 large blasts
and dont forget your Siege Claw has a built in Heavy Flamer.

Yeah, ti's got some cool stuff. Still hideously expensive, and 255pts with IWND. If you can deal with IG artillery in cover, or Land Raiders, you shouldn't have much trouble with the Decimator.

if you're running Tau, a much cheaper Hammerhead will serve as a very apt counter, you can get two for the price of one of these Decimators. It's paying a lot of points for largely mutually exclusive abilities (e.g. it has to pay for that heavy flamer and claw even if they never get used because it's sitting in a corner lobbing plates). A trio of melta-crisis suits also will cost far fewer points and can reliably DS in and defeat the Decimator.

Anyone that rolls their eyes at a legal list needs to meet Sirlin.

Question is, how man people run 3 or even 1 Hammerhead these days... lately I havent seen a single one at my FLGS or any in lists from Tau players... Most are taking Fusion Blasters for their anti Tank.. And you also need some Markerlights so you can hope you don't miss =/ Unless you're taking Longsight, Even then, 5++...

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Anyone that rolls their eyes at a legal list needs to meet Sirlin.

If you mean from Sirlin.net, I'd say that really goes hand in hand with making sure if you're looking to play one way or the other you make sure your opponent does too so you both can have a game you can enjoy and neither of you feel like your time is being wasted.

GoliothOnline wrote:
Question is, how man people run 3 or even 1 Hammerhead these days... lately I havent seen a single one at my FLGS or any in lists from Tau players... Most are taking Fusion Blasters for their anti Tank.. And you also need some Markerlights so you can hope you don't miss =/ Unless you're taking Longsight, Even then, 5++...

And it's entirely possible for the Decimator to whiff as well, the thing's only WS3/BS3, it's melee strenght is also only S8 vs most other CC walkers S10, and it's very easy to stay within that 42" if you want, once within that 42" (most of the board) it's very easy to engage it on your own terms.

If someone's running 4 of them in a 2k game, they'll have points for maybe 3 troops and an HQ, a very small and easily outmaneuvered army that will very much face critical capability gaps.

Even if you're not running hammerheads (which are still wonderful tanks), there's lots of Tau options, and as long as you're engaging at less than 42" you will almost always have the advantage in terms of firepower.

Typhus + 3 x 30 man squads of Zombies, 3 Decimators with Conversion Beamers + Allies of Daemons Nurgle Herald lvl 2 mastery and Grimoire with 20 plague Bearers and 1 Plague Ridden, 1 last Decimator, sits at 1850


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and dont forget that it benefits in CC from Smash USR as per the rules state on its Decimator Siege Claw.

GoliothOnline wrote:
Typhus + 3 x 30 man squads of Zombies, 3 Decimators with Conversion Beamers + Allies of Daemons Nurgle Herald lvl 2 mastery and Grimoire with 20 plague Bearers and 1 Plague Ridden, 1 last Decimator, sits at 1850

Aside from mass the zombies aren't contributing much, Typhus is basically there as a fist in one unit, and you're reliant on the decimators for most of your killing power, and all of your ranged firepower, your AT, and anti-heavy infantry. Any decent list should be capable of defeating this army. Stay under 42" (not hard), and as long as you can deal with the mass of zombies, the army poses relatively little threat, especially if it has to face enemy armor or flyers. For the price of those 4 Decimators you could almost get 3 Heldrakes and 3 Forgefiends and be notably more effective.

I would feel confident facing this army with any list I'd run.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
and dont forget that it benefits in CC from Smash USR as per the rules state on its Decimator Siege Claw.

Then it's getting fewer attacks as well.

Lol Im going to stop after this...

You don't simply place 110 models on the board and keep them there... If your opponent sees them he knows what's coming... Zombie Cultists en mass will eventually get into assault, and when they do, it's going to be a pain for most shooti armies (Especially Tau)

If you are sitting them on objectives for 5 turns, you've wasted not only said models, but the 3-5 hours of your time playing the game =/

I've run this list personally, against Tau... It's funny as all hell and you truly cannot kill that many models... Prioritize the Decimators, and sure you'll probably kill 1, really lucky? maybe 2.

But then the Zombies get closer to you... Tau aren't going to win in CC against even Zombies... Hell... Gretchin tend to win against Tau in CC...

Prioritize the Zombies? Ok.. well.. you might just kill an entire flank of them, but that still leaves me with 60+ and you just forfeit an entire turn, so my Decimators get their try and some lovely AP1 goodness..

I miss a few, I won't lie, but that has never stopped me b4 from killing something each turn... Heck... I've had dozens of Scatters throughout my game experiences, and more often than not, a scatter tends to be just as good as me killing off an entire gunline... Miss the Fishies, blew up their tanks...

Sad thing is this usually happens to Tau because of their Supporting Fire Special Rule where they NEED to be rather close to each other in order to benefit from it... hence why I love me some Large Blasts <3

I completely agree with Thud and approach the game the very same way. My brain has a thing for symmetry and themes. I usually take things in twos and threes, not necessarily for the redundancy, but for the symmetry.

In 5th it was an Entirely Assault oriented Nids army, a Driago Paladin Dreadknight Army, AV12 Spam Eldar, Flying Librarians BA.

Got out of the hobby for a while got back in and I have my Driago Paladin Dreadknight GK, New Wraith Eldar, my Suits/Drones Farsight Enclave.

I usually pick a theme, then optimize around that theme. Sometimes I can't bring myself to take a unit just because its good, ie Kroot for my Farsight Enclave.

Its how I enjoy the game and I often get labeled a power gamer, etc. I enjoy competitive play and enjoy playing other like minded people. My most enjoyable games are competitive in mindset and the real nail biters. It also fits my schedule as I play ~75% of my games in tournaments nowadays.

What makes me roll my eyes?

Pyrovores.

 Zagman wrote:
I completely agree with Thud and approach the game the very same way. My brain has a thing for symmetry and themes. I usually take things in twos and threes, not necessarily for the redundancy, but for the symmetry.

In 5th it was an Entirely Assault oriented Nids army, a Driago Paladin Dreadknight Army, AV12 Spam Eldar, Flying Librarians BA.

Got out of the hobby for a while got back in and I have my Driago Paladin Dreadknight GK, New Wraith Eldar, my Suits/Drones Farsight Enclave.

I usually pick a theme, then optimize around that theme. Sometimes I can't bring myself to take a unit just because its good, ie Kroot for my Farsight Enclave.

Its how I enjoy the game and I often get labeled a power gamer, etc. I enjoy competitive play and enjoy playing other like minded people. My most enjoyable games are competitive in mindset and the real nail biters. It also fits my schedule as I play ~75% of my games in tournaments nowadays.

When we "casual" gamers play (at least in my area) we are competative. But our lists arent optimized. Arguably in our opinion this makes the game far more strategical. Non optimized list vs non optimized list brings balance, story and competativeness all in one. And its something that takes a bit of effort to get to but theres no reason you cant have nail biting games without exploited combos. I for example have a nemisis necron player and whenever we fight its neck and neck the whole way through, people crowd around to watch its great fun. We have no fliers usually, his army is all necron warriors and 2 monoliths. Hardly optimized and lacks in many areas, but my list is the same. Makes for a great game. Balanced and non optimized in my opinion makes for a great narrative and competative game. Plus people dont deploy knowing they will get tabled which is also great.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
I completely agree with Thud and approach the game the very same way. My brain has a thing for symmetry and themes. I usually take things in twos and threes, not necessarily for the redundancy, but for the symmetry.

In 5th it was an Entirely Assault oriented Nids army, a Driago Paladin Dreadknight Army, AV12 Spam Eldar, Flying Librarians BA.

Got out of the hobby for a while got back in and I have my Driago Paladin Dreadknight GK, New Wraith Eldar, my Suits/Drones Farsight Enclave.

I usually pick a theme, then optimize around that theme. Sometimes I can't bring myself to take a unit just because its good, ie Kroot for my Farsight Enclave.

Its how I enjoy the game and I often get labeled a power gamer, etc. I enjoy competitive play and enjoy playing other like minded people. My most enjoyable games are competitive in mindset and the real nail biters. It also fits my schedule as I play ~75% of my games in tournaments nowadays.

When we "casual" gamers play (at least in my area) we are competative. But our lists arent optimized. Arguably in our opinion this makes the game far more strategical. Non optimized list vs non optimized list brings balance, story and competativeness all in one. And its something that takes a bit of effort to get to but theres no reason you cant have nail biting games without exploited combos. I for example have a nemisis necron player and whenever we fight its neck and neck the whole way through, people crowd around to watch its great fun. We have no fliers usually, his army is all necron warriors and 2 monoliths. Hardly optimized and lacks in many areas, but my list is the same. Makes for a great game. Balanced and non optimized in my opinion makes for a great narrative and competitive game. Plus people dont deploy knowing they will get tabled which is also great.

Tabling is far rarer than many would lead others to be. In the day where every table should have some LOS Blocking terrain its damn near impossible some games.

As to fielding unoptimized armies, glad you can do it. It down right painful for me to attempt, by nature I struggle to do anything knowingly inefficient. My life is governed by rule, so is my gaming. That doesn't mean I field the latest netlist, but I choose a theme, and then optimize around that theme, otherwise I'd optimize around an entire army, that is my mid ground.

I will argue that Optimized and Balanced lists do the very same thing, with less margin for error and at a higher level of play. Are you handicapping yourself as much as your opponent? Did they take something just too efficient? etc etc.

I usually get beat by the unorthadox army lists. But they are usually my most fun games.

 conker249 wrote:
I usually get beat by the unorthadox army lists. But they are usually my most fun games.

Sometimes Rock Paper Scizzors gets upset by the guy who brought Dynamite.

 ductvader wrote:

 conker249 wrote:
I usually get beat by the unorthadox army lists. But they are usually my most fun games.

Sometimes Rock Paper Scizzors gets upset by the guy who brought Dynamite.

Or a LOT of napalm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When it comes to "Rock, Paper, Scissors" I prefer playing "Rock, Paper, WTF IS THAT!?!".

The only thing that makes me roll my eyes are the dedicated 'power lists' that the net has knocked down to roughly 100 points of variation. If somebody shows me one of these I usually just smile and say 'Wow, looks powerful' and politely walk away. That is not my style of gaming, so those type of players grate on me.

 Zagman wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
I completely agree with Thud and approach the game the very same way. My brain has a thing for symmetry and themes. I usually take things in twos and threes, not necessarily for the redundancy, but for the symmetry.

In 5th it was an Entirely Assault oriented Nids army, a Driago Paladin Dreadknight Army, AV12 Spam Eldar, Flying Librarians BA.

Got out of the hobby for a while got back in and I have my Driago Paladin Dreadknight GK, New Wraith Eldar, my Suits/Drones Farsight Enclave.

I usually pick a theme, then optimize around that theme. Sometimes I can't bring myself to take a unit just because its good, ie Kroot for my Farsight Enclave.

Its how I enjoy the game and I often get labeled a power gamer, etc. I enjoy competitive play and enjoy playing other like minded people. My most enjoyable games are competitive in mindset and the real nail biters. It also fits my schedule as I play ~75% of my games in tournaments nowadays.

When we "casual" gamers play (at least in my area) we are competative. But our lists arent optimized. Arguably in our opinion this makes the game far more strategical. Non optimized list vs non optimized list brings balance, story and competativeness all in one. And its something that takes a bit of effort to get to but theres no reason you cant have nail biting games without exploited combos. I for example have a nemisis necron player and whenever we fight its neck and neck the whole way through, people crowd around to watch its great fun. We have no fliers usually, his army is all necron warriors and 2 monoliths. Hardly optimized and lacks in many areas, but my list is the same. Makes for a great game. Balanced and non optimized in my opinion makes for a great narrative and competitive game. Plus people dont deploy knowing they will get tabled which is also great.

Tabling is far rarer than many would lead others to be. In the day where every table should have some LOS Blocking terrain its damn near impossible some games.

As to fielding unoptimized armies, glad you can do it. It down right painful for me to attempt, by nature I struggle to do anything knowingly inefficient. My life is governed by rule, so is my gaming. That doesn't mean I field the latest netlist, but I choose a theme, and then optimize around that theme, otherwise I'd optimize around an entire army, that is my mid ground.

I will argue that Optimized and Balanced lists do the very same thing, with less margin for error and at a higher level of play. Are you handicapping yourself as much as your opponent? Did they take something just too efficient? etc etc.

For a start we all have the luxury of planning as we created a club with 30-60 members. So before a game a quick talk about some things namely fliers and a rough guide of who is taking what (I.E lots of tanks, bit of both and other general questions like that) and then when it comes to the game we set up a cool looking map (we just make on that looks natural no taking turns on placement or anything) then choose a mission or roll and go. Army list wise its not handicapping if you play the units for look and theme etc. But it also helps (and this is where i understand the huge difference is between my situation and a lot of others) that i know what my opponent can and cant handle. One friend cant deal with one of my small eldar lists because i move into cover after shooting etc, s i change my list to make it more effective for him to actually be able to do something. I tailor it not only to fight my opponent but also so that he can fight me and they do the same. And thats for a standard game.

Its less handicapping and more tailoring it in a way that makes it the most efficient for both players to hurt the enemy. All it is to have games like that is a change in mindset. And sometimes it doesnt work but tabling people was very frequent at the club especially in my small group of regular players. No longer an issue although it still happens every so often. I have not yet had a game with a random person in my life though. i have always belonged to a club and as a result i have always had the luxury communication.

Although next year im gonna try my army at the GW store but chances are ill be kicked out for having other brands models so if i manage to get a game in i might be more understanding of those that Power List.

This post was done a while back by "Goatboy" but had me thinking of how not to "roll the eyes".

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/11/goatboy-40k-mondays-questions-on-making.html

Think it is important to figure out a solution to those painful lists.

When I look at Tau lists and see nothing but riptides for elites. Sure its a tough thing to fight against but there is no fun in that.

But really spam of any kind whether it be fliers or riptides.