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 ClockworkZion wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree then Blacksails because from what I've seen some players would abuse Chutes and Ladders if they could find a way.

Sure, plus its sort off topic anyways.

Out of curiosity and my amusement, how would you abuse chutes and ladders anyways?

No idea Blacksails, like I said, if some people would if they could. I don't know how, but give them a chance....

 ClockworkZion wrote:
No idea Blacksails, like I said, if some people would if they could. I don't know how, but give them a chance....

I mean if it were Monopoly...

And I was the banker...

Anyways, on topic.

Put your army and points in the thread title. Maybe with extra zing to catch attention.

Format your list; this applies to both online and in person. I still remember the old Army Builder, or whatever program people used to use all the time, and the printouts they gave were just eye-bleedingly awful. Cut off the fat, give me the unit plus relevant upgrades and points cost for the whole unit.

Other than that, I'll read any army list that I'm interested in. Tyranids will often get a pass from me, as I have no clue how they work.

I'm also not a fan of CSM lists that use only cultists as their troops. Why not just make a traitor guard list at that point.

Because the way that dex was written, taking marines as troops is just not very beneficial in most cases ...

I tend to roll my eyes at responses to lists more than the lists themselves. I love it when someone wants advice for something like a dreadnought army and states right off the bat that they KNOW DNs aren't what they use to be and there are better ways to go but would like advice on getting that list as good as it can be because thats the models they have, etc etc. Then the first three responses are:

Don't use Dreadnaughts
Play Tau
Dreadnaughts suck

yeah. Super helpful ...

For lists themselves, I can tolerate an awful lot. I don't mind "power lists" and I'm not one to start bitching about "spamming" the second I see two of something. The only thing that really gets to me is when someone says something like "I'm playing in a friendly escaltion league with my friends. Please look at this 500 point list", and they've managed to cram something like Swarm Lord or two Heldrakes or something into it. That just seems kind of lame to me.

Tycho wrote:
I tend to roll my eyes at responses to lists more than the lists themselves. I love it when someone wants advice for something like a dreadnought army and states right off the bat that they KNOW DNs aren't what they use to be and there are better ways to go but would like advice on getting that list as good as it can be because thats the models they have, etc etc. Then the first three responses are:

Don't use Dreadnaughts
Play Tau
Dreadnaughts suck

yeah. Super helpful ...

Yeah, that's always driven me nuts. If you can't help the person who started the thread and stick to the guidelines they're giving you because they want to build to a theme or because they have a small collection then don't post.

Also anyone who goes around trying to force net lists on people. Some of us don't give two gaks about your favorite netlist this month and just want help fine-tuning what we're working on.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Also anyone who goes around trying to force net lists on people. Some of us don't give two gaks about your favorite netlist this month and just want help fine-tuning what we're working on.

I've received very little good feedback for building my Eldar list...because it only has 3 Serpents.

Sometimes the key is to just look for experts in an army and ignoring the loud nonsense.

For instance:

Serling will generally have fantastic advice on Eldar.
PrinceRaven often has great GK advice.
rigeld is fantastic for tyranid advice even if they are somewhat blunt.

Sometimes I straight up message my list to people I know will actually consider my preferences.

You guys pretty much hit it:

Glib answers:

"XXXX suck!"
"Always use the XXXX for that army."
"I know you said you did not have the model but you should buy it!!!"
"I only field XXXX, never lost yet."
"Wait till the new codex comes out!"
"That is such a prior edition list."

Give reasoning, examples, a strategy.
Organize what they have, suggest the next model or unit going forward, ask their intent (more fluff or more competitive). Treat it like you will be playing this army, suggest possible conversions that might work well.

It is so easy to state an opinion but more worthwhile to pose an idea or argument.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Vox-Casters, Grenade Launchers, LRBT with sponsons and Vets with shotguns.

Not only are they useless but they'll actually damage your chances at winning if you take them.

Garbage, sorry mate but it is, I have used grenade launchers since 3rd and there still good and cheap, sponsons on executioners are also great, vox casters I agree with, shotguns are good for pre charges, yes guard can still do that to tie up stuff, just because it's not some triptide serp spam no brainer doesn't mean it utterly useless

 Formosa wrote:
...triptide...

Another riptide on drugs. I think we need to get them into a program.

 Formosa wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Vox-Casters, Grenade Launchers, LRBT with sponsons and Vets with shotguns.

Not only are they useless but they'll actually damage your chances at winning if you take them.

Garbage, sorry mate but it is, I have used grenade launchers since 3rd and there still good and cheap, sponsons on executioners are also great, vox casters I agree with, shotguns are good for pre charges, yes guard can still do that to tie up stuff, just because it's not some triptide serp spam no trainer doesn't mean it utterly useless

Grenade Launchers would be good if they were free but you have to pay 5 more points just give a guardsman a blast Lasgun. A single lasgun shot doesn't amount to much even if it is small blast. You could use the krak grenade but at the point you might as well splurge 10 more points and get another shot, +1S and +2 AP. 5 points may sound cheap but it's about 10% of the squad's cost (Carrier cost as some like to call it) just to give it a small blast template and a S6 AP4 shot. And now that you can throw grenades for free you pretty are just paying for that S6 AP4 shot. That's 24 inches. Things that want to get within 24" of your guard units typically won't be afraid of that.

I didn't mean Leman Russ tanks as whole. I meant the ordinance russes due to the special new rules for them. I always run sponsons on my non ordinance russes since they give a good boost in firepower for not a lot more points on a durable platform.

Also, Veterans are terrible CC units. Even if you give them Carapace they are just guardsmen with a 4+ save. Sure, you can use them to mess up Tau if their gunline is ruined but still you could've just shot them too.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Also, Veterans are terrible CC units. Even if you give them Carapace they are just guardsmen with a 4+ save. Sure, you can use them to mess up Tau if their gunline is ruined but still you could've just shot them too.

You know what always catches me by surprise?

Penal Legion...they always seem to deal some kind of heavy blow to me every time I face them.

Why would you say vox casters and GL are bad? Please explain... I like both of them

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Vox-Casters, Grenade Launchers, LRBT with sponsons and Vets with shotguns.

Not only are they useless but they'll actually damage your chances at winning if you take them.

Garbage, sorry mate but it is, I have used grenade launchers since 3rd and there still good and cheap, sponsons on executioners are also great, vox casters I agree with, shotguns are good for pre charges, yes guard can still do that to tie up stuff, just because it's not some triptide serp spam no trainer doesn't mean it utterly useless

Grenade Launchers would be good if they were free but you have to pay 5 more points just give a guardsman a blast Lasgun. A single lasgun shot doesn't amount to much even if it is small blast. You could use the krak grenade but at the point you might as well splurge 10 more points and get another shot, +1S and +2 AP. 5 points may sound cheap but it's about 10% of the squad's cost (Carrier cost as some like to call it) just to give it a small blast template and a S6 AP4 shot. And now that you can throw grenades for free you pretty are just paying for that S6 AP4 shot. That's 24 inches. Things that want to get within 24" of your guard units typically won't be afraid of that.

I didn't mean Leman Russ tanks as whole. I meant the ordinance russes due to the special new rules for them. I always run sponsons on my non ordinance russes since they give a good boost in firepower for not a lot more points on a durable platform.

Also, Veterans are terrible CC units. Even if you give them Carapace they are just guardsmen with a 4+ save. Sure, you can use them to mess up Tau if their gunline is ruined but still you could've just shot them too.

the standard Russ does indeed suck since the faq, vets are terrible units correct, but if you use them as a speedbumb to a assault marine squad or some other fast moving unit, it can get you an extra turn before your hit, shotguns are perfect for this role, grenade launchers again are worth the 5 pts, 15pts for 3 str6 ap4 shots combined with the autocannon is very good at taking out transports, again just because tdb's don't use them doesn't mean there not a good choice, any mindless chimp could come up with triptide spam, serp spam and dw th/ss spam, I dislike most spam lists, competitive or not.

In general I'll be happy to help anyone make use of anything they want to put in their lists. I tend to avoid anything for armies I don't play or face regularly (ie. I have no idea about) and won't really bother with anything containing the words 'Cheese', 'Spam'. 'OP' or 'ultra-competitive' in the title. I have no interest in playing the game in that manner, so wouldn't engage with a list like that enough to offer any advice. I take particular interest in anything that uses unusual or rarely seen choices.

In terms of replies, I must admit that when it comes down to 'x is terrible, bring y' and 'buy more of these, they are amazing' I get a little irked. I don't see the point in recommending something the OP has specifically left out or that does not fit the themes they specify, something I see far too often. It's also why I don't tend to post my own lists in that section.

 Formosa wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Vox-Casters, Grenade Launchers, LRBT with sponsons and Vets with shotguns.

Not only are they useless but they'll actually damage your chances at winning if you take them.

Garbage, sorry mate but it is, I have used grenade launchers since 3rd and there still good and cheap, sponsons on executioners are also great, vox casters I agree with, shotguns are good for pre charges, yes guard can still do that to tie up stuff, just because it's not some triptide serp spam no trainer doesn't mean it utterly useless

Grenade Launchers would be good if they were free but you have to pay 5 more points just give a guardsman a blast Lasgun. A single lasgun shot doesn't amount to much even if it is small blast. You could use the krak grenade but at the point you might as well splurge 10 more points and get another shot, +1S and +2 AP. 5 points may sound cheap but it's about 10% of the squad's cost (Carrier cost as some like to call it) just to give it a small blast template and a S6 AP4 shot. And now that you can throw grenades for free you pretty are just paying for that S6 AP4 shot. That's 24 inches. Things that want to get within 24" of your guard units typically won't be afraid of that.

I didn't mean Leman Russ tanks as whole. I meant the ordinance russes due to the special new rules for them. I always run sponsons on my non ordinance russes since they give a good boost in firepower for not a lot more points on a durable platform.

Also, Veterans are terrible CC units. Even if you give them Carapace they are just guardsmen with a 4+ save. Sure, you can use them to mess up Tau if their gunline is ruined but still you could've just shot them too.

the standard Russ does indeed suck since the faq, vets are terrible units correct, but if you use them as a speedbumb to a assault marine squad or some other fast moving unit, it can get you an extra turn before your hit, shotguns are perfect for this role, grenade launchers again are worth the 5 pts, 15pts for 3 str6 ap4 shots combined with the autocannon is very good at taking out transports, again just because tdb's don't use them doesn't mean there not a good choice, any mindless chimp could come up with triptide spam, serp spam and dw th/ss spam, I dislike most spam lists, competitive or not.

Spamming grenade launchers is still spam. But thats not here nor there since I find the term stupid. All militaries spam. Its called standardization.

You know, for 30 more points you not only get better penetration but you also get to a +1 on the damage chart. Not only that but it can double tap at half range, has the same strength as th autocannon and its the same range to boot. Heck, give them to vet squads and theyll mulch those assault marine squads. And you'll keep the vet squad to boot.

Since when are we playing a realistic military simulation game though?

Even the grimdark armies of 40k do it. Chimera spam lists are armored fist regiments. Drop pod spam is tactic called steel rain. Bike spam is what the white scars do.

When reading lists that are copied from Armybuilder etc. and list every piece of equipment and rule a models has

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Even the grimdark armies of 40k do it. Chimera spam lists are armored fist regiments. Drop pod spam is tactic called steel rain. Bike spam is what the white scars do.

To a point but when it's presented in the lore we're typically dealing with a lot more units than we do on the table.

And even in the real world military some variance does exist. Not every squad is kitted for anti-armor for instance.

I think spam is when the idea is to take as much as you can of what is considered the "must take" options in the book.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Even the grimdark armies of 40k do it. Chimera spam lists are armored fist regiments. Drop pod spam is tactic called steel rain. Bike spam is what the white scars do.

To a point but when it's presented in the lore we're typically dealing with a lot more units than we do on the table.

And even in the real world military some variance does exist. Not every squad is kitted for anti-armor for instance.

I think spam is when the idea is to take as much as you can of what is considered the "must take" options in the book.

My point is that spam makes sense from several points of view. Though, I will alter this with the exception of a gaming point of view when it comes to your definition of spam. It must get boring and stupid to have to fight the same exact units in the same exact army over and over again.

I wonder, do codex writers intend for it to happen or does it just does?

Where becomes the difference between suggesting and 'harassing' when commenting on an army list? In almost every DE army I see that wants to be competitive, I suggest taking an allied Farseer because it helps the army so much. Is that Netlisting? Is that cheese? Would I be squashing someone's free thinking by saying never take a dark lance in a warrior squad, even though you never should? If you put a list up and don't SPECIFICALLY say what kind of units you want to avoid, then why are you complaining about people giving you good advise (Yes taking 3 Riptides is good advise, just not always viable)?

I personally won't bat an eye at any list, because everylist is fine as long as its legal. Weather I'd play it or not is a different matter, why would I play a necron bakery in a pick up game when I don't bring my tourney list, its obviously wont be too fun. The only times I ever get annoyed with a list is when it just takes all the 'wrong' (Subjective) upgrades in all the 'wrong' places on all the 'wrong' units, then goes to me telling me how good his army list is. I don't wan to be a D*ck and correct him, but I can't stand it either, its a character flaw I am fully aware of

 ductvader wrote:
Lately I've just been browsing army lists and it's like.

Helldrakes
Wraith
Serpents
Riptides
Land Raiders
etc.

Where are those intelligent free thinkers?

Lol you seemed to enjoy my blast list.

My biggest eye-roll is the phrase "semi-competitive". That phrase tells me the person just wanted to post list and have everyone go oh yeah *circle jerk* that's a great amazing list its total competitive. But when people criticize it they are, " oh well didn't you read it was meant to be semi-competitive, not everyone wants a cheese list.

Another thing that is annoying me right now is it seems like if an IG doesn't have vendetta in it, its automatically declared not competitive

My eyes roll a bit at the list that is written as someone watches me pull models out of my case for a game.

Majsharan wrote:
Another thing that is annoying me right now is it seems like if an IG doesn't have vendetta in it, its automatically declared not competitive

I firmly believe that Vendettas will increase in pts cost and IG will see the first unique character pilot.

*fingers crossed for an amelia earhart pun worthy name for them*

 TheCustomLime wrote:


My point is that spam makes sense from several points of view. Though, I will alter this with the exception of a gaming point of view when it comes to your definition of spam. It must get boring and stupid to have to fight the same exact units in the same exact army over and over again.

I wonder, do codex writers intend for it to happen or does it just does?

I suspect that it is the inevitable consequence of writers not thinking through the codex. It happens because certain things are either "too good" for their price, or by comparison to the rest of the codex, they are the best viable option for their price.

The example I'm most familiar with is Blood Claws in the SW dex. In theory they sound neat, but in practice you'll never see them on anything but the most casual list. Why? Because they are the same price as Grey Hunters, who have better equipment, a better WS, BS, and better upgrades than they do. Between access to Mark of the Wulfen and the higher WS, they more than make up for the single extra attack Blood Claws get on the charge, and they can actually shoot.

Imagine the wonders we would have if, before a codex went to print, the writers sat down and went through unit by unit, upgrade by upgrade and said "Under what circumstances would this be a great choice?" and kept adjusting the points values / benefits / etc until they came up with an answer.

 reiner wrote:
My eyes roll a bit at the list that is written as someone watches me pull models out of my case for a game.

Man. That's just a dick move on their part. I'd probably just put my stuff away if they stared doing that.

 kronk wrote:

 reiner wrote:
My eyes roll a bit at the list that is written as someone watches me pull models out of my case for a game.

Man. That's just a dick move on their part. I'd probably just put my stuff away if they stared doing that.

Agreed, but sometimes they need to be shown the error of their ways through a fair fight. Especially fun if you pull out stuff you don't intend to use.

 reiner wrote:
My eyes roll a bit at the list that is written as someone watches me pull models out of my case for a game.

The better one is when you can see they have 3 or 4 lists and pick one just as you pull out your stuff.

 reiner wrote:
Especially fun if you pull out stuff you don't intend to use.

You. I like you. Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Even the grimdark armies of 40k do it. Chimera spam lists are armored fist regiments. Drop pod spam is tactic called steel rain. Bike spam is what the white scars do.

To a point but when it's presented in the lore we're typically dealing with a lot more units than we do on the table.

And even in the real world military some variance does exist. Not every squad is kitted for anti-armor for instance.

I think spam is when the idea is to take as much as you can of what is considered the "must take" options in the book.

My point is that spam makes sense from several points of view. Though, I will alter this with the exception of a gaming point of view when it comes to your definition of spam. It must get boring and stupid to have to fight the same exact units in the same exact army over and over again.

I wonder, do codex writers intend for it to happen or does it just does?

From what I gather they don't mean for it to happen, or else Quaddrakes wouldn't work as they do now. There is legend of someone showing one of the Devs a list from one of the big national tournamanets and they were less than excited about it.