I've never had a problem with it - in games I've run or games in which I've played... It's role-playing. A male player is no more an assassin than he is a woman (one hopes). And female gamers aren't as rare as stereotypes make them out to be, but if your only female PCs are female players, your party isn't as rounded out as it could be. (and vice-versa... there are game settings where men are taken more seriously than women, so why not give women players the opportunity to play as men?)
I've played in dozens of games (both long term and one off's at conventions) and I've never seen it be an issue. I've seen friends make a few jokes the first time a female character is used by a male player in long running campaigns but they're light hearted jokes that don't continue past a minute or two.
The entire point of rpgs is to be someone different for a while. I have absolutely no issue with men playing women and women playing men (or people playing as orcs or elves or dwarves etc ).
I would be pretty pissed off if I joined a group where I could not play a character of whatever sex I wished to.
I've got no problem with it, though I've always found it difficult to roleplay a female in tabletop RPGs, yet easy in MMOs. I guess it's because I've been a lot more self-conscious around a table with friends than online with strangers. Also, I guess, being younger when having played tabletop RPGs (mostly at tourneys in cons, playtesting, etc - I've never rolled my own female) and not actually having bothered to especially "roleplay" a female in MMOs - just being myself and not presenting as a female, or male - simply not being an asshat with a (sometimes) female avatar. And having the odd guy freak out into homophobia-land when I said I'm actually a guy.
The only issues I've seen in the past is that cross gender character are more prone to being stereotypes that might just offend the sensitive
(although players who run them this way tend to be the ones who run stereotypes for their own gender too)
I've seen this.
I've also seen people play characters where the cross-gender aspect crossed into the creepy.
I played in a game with a two hundred pound neckbeard who wanted to play a sixteen year old asian girl. He spent a great deal of time describing what she was wearing in graphic detail (especially when she was going to bed). I think people should be able to play what they want, but it was nearly impossible to interact with him and suspend your disbelief THAT far.
I think that when the character is too far divorced from the player, it can create problems for other players, especially if the instigator isn't a good enough actor to get everyone's disbelief off the ground. You might have players who can handle it, but at that point, some GMs just find it more equitable to create a blanket rule against it.
Kinda surprised to see like, NO one that doesn't allow it. Almost every gaming group I have ever been part of has banned cross-gendering characters in some fashion or another. Intriguing.
I think there is a certain level of maturity required to play cross gendered characters well, but if you don't meet that standard you generally aren't someone I invite to my games.
The only issues I've seen in the past is that cross gender character are more prone to being stereotypes that might just offend the sensitive
(although players who run them this way tend to be the ones who run stereotypes for their own gender too)
I've seen this.
I've also seen people play characters where the cross-gender aspect crossed into the creepy.
I played in a game with a two hundred pound neckbeard who wanted to play a sixteen year old asian girl. He spent a great deal of time describing what she was wearing in graphic detail (especially when she was going to bed). I think people should be able to play what they want, but it was nearly impossible to interact with him and suspend your disbelief THAT far.
I think that when the character is too far divorced from the player, it can create problems for other players, especially if the instigator isn't a good enough actor to get everyone's disbelief off the ground. You might have players who can handle it, but at that point, some GMs just find it more equitable to create a blanket rule against it.
Kinda surprised to see like, NO one that doesn't allow it. Almost every gaming group I have ever been part of has banned cross-gendering characters in some fashion or another. Intriguing.
I've never met an orc or an assassin yet people play plenty of different characters that they could never be in real life and who are far different to their every day self. That is the point of rpgs. If some is being creepy in how they play a character, that is an issue with moderating the player, not about banning cross gender rping. You can have a male playing a male and being horrifically greasy or creepy. You can have a female playing a female doing exactly the same as your player above and it still going a bit too far... why does anyone need to know what characters are sleeping in unless they are sleeping in armour?
So again, the issue is moderation to prevent people being "creepy" not banning people playing characters who are not them in real life
Aura's been playing a guy with multiple marriages and acting like a fantasy equivalent of Lothario for about a year now.. I'd say I have no issue with it.
Heh, but yeah its not even a eyebrow raiser, many of my groups have had a 50-50 gender split even when the groups where mostly male players and I prefer to run female characters in almost everything, even my LIVE avatar is female..
I got a male player who plays a female assassin in a Dark Heresy game, and really, there never was any problem with that, and as he plays her as a cold hearted assassin there was no real problem into turning this into a stereotype or a running joke..thought I think once or twice he decided to unzip his bodyglove juuust a little to show cleavage to help his charm tests, but apart from that, business as usual.
My former Rogue Trader/D&D 3.5 GM on the other hand was adamant about it, stating that a man couldn't act or think as a woman so he refused to see us play a woman character...Silly if you ask me, but yet again he wasn't the GM with the most RP-oriented gameplay...
I have always been happy to play and allow cross-gender characters and that is what I have experienced in playing in other people's campaigns too.
I don't see the difference between playing a boy/girl and playing an alien or an elf or a dragon. You have to think yourself into a different psychology.
I've seen it done a few times, males playing as female, I have never once seen it done well, instead falling into all the very worst stereotypes and tropes. Then I went online to a RP server for an MMORPG and it was even worse, you could smell a G.I.R.L. a mile away by how ridiculously slutty and over the top they'd be.
An unwholesome mix of cliches, insult and demonstration of the player's lack of idea about the opposite sex. Often with quite creepy results.
I would not be too eager for someone to rp the opposite gender in a game I ran, unless they were a seriously good rper with maturity and the capacity to roleplay it without the usual pitfalls I've seen.
I have a similar, but lesser, reservation about playing insanity, from my WW VtM days of seeing so many Malkavians played terribly. Only ever saw two played well, the rest were fething awful 'comic relief' that would totally destroy carefully constructed scenes by the storytellers.
In my experience, bad role-players and immature role-players are going to be bad and immature, regardless, and good role-players and reasonably mature role-players are going to be good and reasonably mature. It has little or nothing to do with the gender of the character. Though I have to ask, that GM who stated a man couldn't act or think as a woman... did he let humans play other races?
Great post, zbg97. But I think I see where you are going with this:
zbg97 wrote: ... did he let humans play other races?
And I think it's a different topic. Stereotyping about fantasy races is nothing like stereotyping about real world categories.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @MGS - Sounds like you have been RPGing with schnucks. One of my favorite characters of all time was not only female but also insane. She was compelling enough to become one of the main anatgonists of the campaign after I stopped playing her. I also have seen guys play female characters very well even in their first RPG session.
Manchu wrote: Great post, zbg97. But I think I see where you are going with this:
zbg97 wrote: ... did he let humans play other races?
And I think it's a different topic. Stereotyping about fantasy races is nothing like stereotyping about real world categories.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fair enough, but I was referring to the fact that the GM in question (in Inquisitor Jex's post) apparently stated specifically that cross-gender role-playing was forbidden because a man couldn't act or think as a woman, so I was genuinely wondering if the same GM thought a human could act and think like an Elf.
To some degree, the answer's always going to be no, which is why it's "role playing" - acting and thinking like I already do would make one incredibly boring game (or one crazy awesome meta-game). It's a little weird, to me, that the opposite gender is considered a foreign, unknowable thing, all the moreso in settings that actually incorporate foreign, unknowable things. Men and women are equally capable of almost all of the same thoughts and behaviors (though, of course, not all of the same actions). Thinking otherwise is what gave rise to those stereotypes in the first place.
And my point was that anyone can act and think like a fictional species because the only reality there is to a fictional species's experience is what we make up when playing them.
Definitely worth watching, and the bottom line definitely is that there are no universal answers to this topic, to begin with.
For myself, I grew up role playing with pen and paper games. I'm not old enough to remember a time before Dungeons and Dragons, but I played the red box D&D when it was still the newest D&D, and I played 1st Ed. AD&D for many years, when it was still the only AD&D. I've played Shadowrun, World of Darkness, Star Wars, and a host of other pen-and-paper RPGs as well as everything from the days of Zork through Baldur's Gate to Mass Effect 3 and Old Repulic as an MMORPG. I've also RPGed with a lot of people who are both trained and experienced in stage acting. My philosophy is that it doesn't really make a difference what your gender, ethnicity, or orientation is - if you can create a fleshed out and (in-game) realistic character and be respectful of your character and the other players (though your character may not be respectful of himself or herself or the other characters), there's a pretty good chance I'll want to keep gaming with you. If you, as a player, can't be respectful of the other players or your character, I probably won't. But I'm well aware that a lot of people are in it for escapism, or tons of murder-death-kill, or a host of other reasons, all of which are equally valid ways of gaming and reasons for gaming. This is an area where YMMV doesn't come close to cutting it. Your mileage will definitely vary. A lot.
I have a similar, but lesser, reservation about playing insanity, from my WW VtM days of seeing so many Malkavians played terribly. Only ever saw two played well, the rest were fething awful 'comic relief' that would totally destroy carefully constructed scenes by the storytellers.
On a side note, this, this, a thousand times this.
The only time I have a problem with it is when someone attempts to use their roleplaying as a political statement against the gender they're roleplaying. But I always have that problem with certain players I've known...
No real issue with it. I have a player who often plays female historical expys. His recent rogue trader captain was julie d'aubigny for example (which he played straight). Only time he strays from that is to play his scooby doo Daphney style waitress for Call of Cthulhu (complete with "jinkies" I may add).
zbg97 wrote: Though I have to ask, that GM who stated a man couldn't act or think as a woman... did he let humans play other races?
Yup, Dwarves, Elves, Half-Orcs even..Satyrs. I never asked and he never went into details, but I suspect it was to stop players to sleeping your way into where ever or trying to seduce every/any thing the party comes across, or merely not to turn into the party whore and having to service every other party members when camping.
It looks out of this world to think like that, but if you saw what I was playing with, you would not be surprised...RP was out of the window and they acted more in a "Oh the GM does that, I know" than what the story enthralls and planning..ha! I started to see it tactically, but it always ended up with someone charging into the battle (see previous comment about "the GM does that"), then having to duke it out, and seeing that was what we were supposed to do; charge in kill everything without any plan or hope the dice is on our favour...Twice I managed to squeeze in an RP element: first, when the rogue died and my Half-Orc Fighter/Cleric did a service for him (My char and his were the only original members from the campaign start), despite the bitching of the Satyr player (who indirectly suicide his elf during a previous battle because he got bored of it), which by they way was the one who killed him by shooting/using a staff of fireball into the melee (his reason for doing that: "Hey, I'm chaotic Neutral, I don't care!")
Second time was later in the camping, my Half-Orc tackled a daemon of sorts (the one with the scorpion-like tail) to buy some time while the rest of the party made their escape via some warphole. I managed to survive, and even demanded a reward for sticking to my character concept (contrary to the rest o the lot)...The GM had to obliged
Inquisitor Jex wrote: I suspect it was to stop players to sleeping your way into where ever or trying to seduce every/any thing the party comes across, or merely not to turn into the party whore and having to service every other party members when camping.
Again, more of a problem with the player than people playing different genders.
As the rest of your post indicates, if you are playing with idots, you get idiotic RP's, regardless of what artificial limits you attempt to set on what people can or cannot play.
Well, I stopped playing with them a couple of years ago, mostly because when I decided to deliver the same medicine to one of the player, turns out it wasn't as acceptable as when he did it to me.
I mostly played with them because well, I played! I GM (and GM'ed) WHRFP, Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Only War, Hunter: The Reckoning, Shadowrun...I can count the number of times I've actually been a player in a game on my hands, being generous here, and 3 of those fingers are with those guys (D&D 3.5, Rogue Trader, Star Wars d6). Now I play in one game, GM the rest, and I'm quite satisfied with my players that GMing suffice.
I've played a few female characters in my time period, simply to throw a bit of variety into the party. I have no problem playing another gender and I learned early on that if I were to play a different gender that I couldn't just play a slut or some other boring female characteristic that male gamers tend to fall into (hey! I was 14). Most recently I've played a female rogue, pirate captain. Because of the whole "women are cursed on ships" thing, my character had to work harder than the male characters, and after winning a heave (some weird fighting game amongst the crew), she won their respect. Behind the scenes, she was more feminine, though far from a good example of a dude roleplaying as a female. I tried to create a person, and if it seemed natural enough then gender didn't really matter.
Though my DM was slightly immature and tried to make my character a concubine of the pirate while we were press-ganged on his ship... I got up from my seat at the table, say on the DM's lap, tickled his chin, and then slapped him and said, "If you ever think I'm willing to anything like that, you've got another thing coming." I then got up walked back to my seat and sat down. The captain locked me in the sweatbox for a few days. Totally worth it
zbg97 wrote: Though I have to ask, that GM who stated a man couldn't act or think as a woman... did he let humans play other races?
Yup, Dwarves, Elves, Half-Orcs even..Satyrs. I never asked and he never went into details, but I suspect it was to stop players to sleeping your way into where ever or trying to seduce every/any thing the party comes across, or merely not to turn into the party whore and having to service every other party members when camping.
I don't see how having to use gay sex instead of straight would stop players who were really in to the powergaming from seducing their way from everything in front of them.
I've roleplayed a few male characters (most notably Orks; insert "but they're not male" argument here if you want, but let's face it, they are the epitome of a certain definition of masculinity) myself, but I never felt the need to have them feth everything that moved.
Though my DM was slightly immature and tried to make my character a concubine of the pirate while we were press-ganged on his ship... I got up from my seat at the table, say on the DM's lap, tickled his chin, and then slapped him and said, "If you ever think I'm willing to anything like that, you've got another thing coming." I then got up walked back to my seat and sat down. The captain locked me in the sweatbox for a few days. Totally worth it
I'm sorry Alf but that is beautiful, take my exalt for the laugh
zbg97 wrote: Though I have to ask, that GM who stated a man couldn't act or think as a woman... did he let humans play other races?
Yup, Dwarves, Elves, Half-Orcs even..Satyrs. I never asked and he never went into details, but I suspect it was to stop players to sleeping your way into where ever or trying to seduce every/any thing the party comes across, or merely not to turn into the party whore and having to service every other party members when camping.
I don't see how having to use gay sex instead of straight would stop players who were really in to the powergaming from seducing their way from everything in front of them.
I've roleplayed a few male characters (most notably Orks; insert "but they're not male" argument here if you want, but let's face it, they are the epitome of a certain definition of masculinity) myself, but I never felt the need to have them feth everything that moved.
The manliest, mightiest, most magnetic-to-women character I ever encountered was played by a middle-aged mother who likes to knit. I was GM'ing a fantasy setting (usingClinton Nixon's Shadow of Yesterday rules) and this player wanted to be a sexy Noble Savage type inspired by the original Conan the CImmerian. (Not the musclebound idiot played by Ahnuld: Robert Howard's smart, sardonic Celt who frequently wears a shirt). It was AWESOME. I kept roleplaying one female NPC after another, each of whom hurled herself at him in various ways, from the werewolf princess (he went "meh") to the naive paladin (married her!) to the evil sorceress (killed her anyway). The poor player character who had a crush on him never had a chance. Also it was a man playing the female PC who had the crush on the male PC played by a woman.
[Edit: Gender was a big deal in the setting, with a rigidly divided society when men and women had access to different kinds of magic, different career options (paladins and sacred assassins were both all female), and of course different legal rights -- e.g. one character's backstory was she was falsely accused of being raped and cast out by her father...."rape" in this society being defined as sexual intercourse to which the woman's father does not consent.]
And if you go by my avatar and username, then I'm playing cross-gender right now, since I'm a man. [Edit for clarity: biological male, self-identify as male, wear men's clothes, only ever had sexual relationships with women, the whole heteronormative package.] My first name really is Sydney, though (pity me). Normally on forums I just use my real first and last names, but apparently that's not a thing here, so I figured I'd pay tribute to my which are in tribute to my favorite 40K faction, the Sisters of Battle, and to female soldiers everywhere.
In actually face-to-face desktop RPGs, I play female characters way, way more often than men, and for a long time, when I tried to play men, I didn't have much fun doing it. Years of therapy later, I realized that had something to do with internalizing familial expectations that men weren't allowed to display strong emotion but women could, and now I can roleplay as my own gender and have fun.... but my default's still gonna be female.
I have a mate who exclusively plays female characters. It's sort of odd, but that's just how he does it.
We have a female player who always likes to play children. Because that's how she does it.
We have another player who only ever plays a Thief derivative and steals everything that isn't nailed down regardless of the time or place. Because that's just how he do.
Honestly, having dabbled a bit in Changeling: The Dreaming, I find adults who roleplay as children - especially in a mixed group - generally creepy as feth.
Does anyone else think that the title of this thread is egregiously inappropriate?
A cross gendered character is a character that thinks it's a sister of battle while it's clearly a space marine. This is just a nerd wanting to play a female character for the sake of boobs or, the slight chance that something will be slightly better.
Given that the OP has been discussing Vampire: The Masquerade, Pendragon, PCs in general, and RPGs in general, I've felt pretty secure assuming that the L5R mentioned is the RPG, not the board game... though I may be mistaken. Gender in the board game seems like it wouldn't be worth this debate.. Though even if it's the board game (or the ccg, for that matter) "egregiously inappropriate" still seems fairly hyperbolic.
I have had a lot of fun playing a female Dwarf in MERP for the last few years, especially when any dwarf that we meet acts strange around me( the other PCs aren't sure why, they think its because I have lost my beard )
We're discussing the pen-and-paper RPG, rather than a computer game, card game, or board game. (Never even heard of an L5R board game...have to check that out.)
It's called "roleplaying" for a reason. Yeah, it gets weird, thanks Alfndrate.
I remember a episode of Max Headroom from like 1987 where all these virtual reality addicted people were selling their dreams to what was really "reality TV producers." There was one producer who was shocked when a "guy" was dreaming that he was a "woman."
Funny how that show could get so many things right and completely miss the whole transgender/gay thing we see now.
Scipio Africanus wrote: This is just a nerd wanting to play a female character for the sake of boobs or, the slight chance that something will be slightly better.
Mighty big brush you've got there sunshine. Careful not to paint everyone at once with it...
Unfortunately, it seems like every gaming group I've ever seen has at least one of those people.
There are just some gamers who, even if they are totally good players otherwise, just lack the maturity or self-control to play a cross-gender character without getting silly, offensive, or distracting to the rest of the group.
For my games, I don't allow cross-gender characters. While I could choose to allow some players to do it and other not to, depending on who is capable of enriching the game experience and who isn't, it doesn't seem worth it to tell people 'you aren't a good enough role-player for me to let you do this' and risk causing hurt feelings. The experience of allowing cross-gender roleplay doesn't add enough to the game that I think it's worth that. That's just my personal feelings on it.
Still, I'm not opposed to it on principle. (Clearly, since I'm going to play a female character!) It's just always been my experience that it is more detrimental to the game than helpful.
Frankly, if the only role that a guy can (or will) imagine for a woman is that she goes around fething all the guys, then he is a poor roleplayer with no imagination.
That goes for a woman who can't imagine a guy without making him a casanova as well. It's just a different form of mary sue-style character, the wish fulfillment. Wish fulfillment fiction isn't bad on its own, but it's VERY frequently poorly written and frequently rather disturbing and tasteless when one takes a step back to think about it.
There can be a place for the stereotypical male and female characters, just as there can be a place for the stereotypical roles of each class. Those roles can be played well or poorly depending on the player.
Jimsolo wrote: Unfortunately, it seems like every gaming group I've ever seen has at least one of those people.
There are just some gamers who, even if they are totally good players otherwise, just lack the maturity or self-control to play a cross-gender character without getting silly, offensive, or distracting to the rest of the group.
For my games, I don't allow cross-gender characters. While I could choose to allow some players to do it and other not to, depending on who is capable of enriching the game experience and who isn't, it doesn't seem worth it to tell people 'you aren't a good enough role-player for me to let you do this' and risk causing hurt feelings. The experience of allowing cross-gender roleplay doesn't add enough to the game that I think it's worth that. That's just my personal feelings on it.
Still, I'm not opposed to it on principle. (Clearly, since I'm going to play a female character!) It's just always been my experience that it is more detrimental to the game than helpful.
Huh. Couldn't you quietly take somebody aside and say, "Dude, you want to play a female character again? Really? After pissing off the whole group last time? Why don't you do something like your Orc barbarian, that was awesome. Play to your strengths, man."
This is easier with the group I played with (before taking grad school classes in the evening ate my life) because we didn't just show up and make characters, we talked about it a lot first, and it was expected, indeed encouraged, for other people to suggest ideas for your character.
Huh. Couldn't you quietly take somebody aside and say, "Dude, you want to play a female character again? Really? After pissing off the whole group last time? Why don't you do something like your Orc barbarian, that was awesome. Play to your strengths, man."
This is easier with the group I played with (before taking grad school classes in the evening ate my life) because we didn't just show up and make characters, we talked about it a lot first, and it was expected, indeed encouraged, for other people to suggest ideas for your character.
It doesn't always work, but I do like showing someone a clearly-lit path to the high road.
Some groups seem to have a tradition of suffering in silence -- you endure the jerk's obnoxious sexist character, you endure the GM's railroad plot, you endure the two people who get in character and chat, in character, for 20 minutes about what to have for tea -- and nobody ever says directly, "hey, this thing you're doing, it makes my game less fun."
This social dynamic, in my thoroughly considered and intensely felt opinion, sucks.
I occasionally play females in video games, but I've only played one female in a Pen and Paper - a gun nun in Deadlands. She was boss, but her gender didn't really factor in much considering her religious views.
SisterSydney wrote: Some groups seem to have a tradition of suffering in silence -- you endure the jerk's obnoxious sexist character, you endure the GM's railroad plot, you endure the two people who get in character and chat, in character, for 20 minutes about what to have for tea -- and nobody ever says directly, "hey, this thing you're doing, it makes my game less fun."
This social dynamic, in my thoroughly considered and intensely felt opinion, sucks.
Indeed, I hate it when groups are so quiet. communication is key to a good rpg.
Sometimes we have to put up with an obnoxious spouse, say, in order to have one of our friends in a game. Or we have to tolerate gamers that we wouldn't prefer in our ideal group, simply because without them we wouldn't have enough people for a legitimate game. Or there are players with actual cognitive or mental disabilities, which inhibit their social behavior, and need to be penned in.
I think that, in the future, I'm going to allow cross-gender characters, but only with an approved character concept and background, based on the large number of times it has gone wrong in the past. Since the players most likely to cause a problem here are the ones who are least likely to research a character or come up with a well fleshed out concept beforehand, that should nip the issue in the bud. And should anyone go through the trouble, I can at least screen their concept just to make sure they aren't playing 'ridiculous lothario' or 'nagging shrew' stereotypes. That seems like a reasonable compromise.
My female characters are generally better than my male characters, despite being a guy myself. In one case* it is because the character concept genuinely works better for a woman, but generally it's just because I find it easier to be inspired by a female character than a male, and that inspiration is how I flesh out my characters.
* A highborn Drow who was denied a place in court because of her own incompetence, not just because she was born a boy like Drizzt Do'Urden.
Split half right about now, my Rogue Trader and Shadowrun characters were both male and more or less the standard way of how I played my characters: Fixers, do-ers, the kind who organize and plan stuff for others, trying to be the moral compass. Or just be there in case of Rogue Trader.
My Cyberpunk and Only War characters were both female. I played the Cyberpunk character as a flake and wrote up a slew of noodle incidents in an attempt to make the character more interesting and not just another Molly the Razorgirl or Motoko clone, but those sessions never really went anywhere thankfully. In Only War I was the commissar in an all-female Catachan regiment, using the Free RPG day adventure characters. Aside from the way one other PC played her character in a very antagonistic "I didn't know they had girl hangmen, watch your back bitch, I eat commissars for breakfast" sort of way, nothing weird there, though I mostly just played it as a commissar trying to motivate the squad and survive a hellish eleven hours. I probably should've made a "Ever been mistaken for a man?" joke as a retort the constant threats from that one guardswoman.
Sometimes we have to put up with an obnoxious spouse, say, in order to have one of our friends in a game. Or we have to tolerate gamers that we wouldn't prefer in our ideal group, simply because without them we wouldn't have enough people for a legitimate game. Or there are players with actual cognitive or mental disabilities, which inhibit their social behavior, and need to be penned in.
I think that, in the future, I'm going to allow cross-gender characters, but only with an approved character concept and background, based on the large number of times it has gone wrong in the past. Since the players most likely to cause a problem here are the ones who are least likely to research a character or come up with a well fleshed out concept beforehand, that should nip the issue in the bud. And should anyone go through the trouble, I can at least screen their concept just to make sure they aren't playing 'ridiculous lothario' or 'nagging shrew' stereotypes. That seems like a reasonable compromise.
Sounds smart. Requiring people to talk and think about character concepts well before play starts helps not only to prevent bad characters but also to make good characters better.
Even so, I find you really need to keep giving people feedback throughout the game. If their character does something cool, tell them (many games explicitly let the GM or even other players to give bonuses in such cases). If someone does something obnoxious, you need to tell them, politely but also then and there.
In one game I played where winning a conflict let you narrate all sorts of consequences without restriction, I got a little too Empire Strikes Back and said my character cut off another player character's hand. The other player looked at me dourly and said "You just lost me" -- and I immediately took it back, not because of anything in the rules but because the other players were not only my friends but also my audience, and the only way to "lose" a face-to-face RPG is to fail to amuse and engage them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: The game in question was Tony Lower-Basch's superhero RPGCapes, [url=http://www.museoffire.com/Games/]
available here[/url], though we were using it to play time traveling super scientists and psychics instead.
Yeah I should note (just because of the direction of the conversation in the thread) that the Lothario character Aura is playing at the moment, doesn't come off in the slightest as a wish fulfilment character.
Its quite scary really, the 'family' that is around him, is now politically one of the strongest groups in the region he is within and fates help anyone who tries to mess with them.
Although trying to maintain that many personalties and relationships, twists and turns under a lone roof, albiet a large castle can be quite draining as the ST/DM even if a lot of fun.
Manchu wrote: Great post, zbg97. But I think I see where you are going with this:
zbg97 wrote: ... did he let humans play other races?
And I think it's a different topic. Stereotyping about fantasy races is nothing like stereotyping about real world categories.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @MGS - Sounds like you have been RPGing with schnucks. One of my favorite characters of all time was not only female but also insane. She was compelling enough to become one of the main anatgonists of the campaign after I stopped playing her. I also have seen guys play female characters very well even in their first RPG session.
I've been in many terrible groups, especially D&D ones in flgs, with too many adolescents or misogynists with very little actual interaction with real members of the opposite sex, it leads to 'we go to the inn to try and sleep with the barmaids' or one or other of them playing a 'sthuper-sthexy elven sthlut' who constantly indulges in 'I don't sit at the table with the rest of the party, I sit on the table, my long legs swinging back and forth, bored and looking coy' sort of gak.
Oh, your female character is exceptionally beautiful, what a surprise... Oh, she giggles a lot or looks sultry in inappropriate situations, most unexpected... Wait, she's bisexual and a bit of a vampire on the quiet despite her being rolled as a straight human, well shiver my timbers... Yeah, tropes and awful stereotypes can abound, I personally would really rather not have it in the game, especially given that I do love and always try to have a mixed gender group of players, as I think it adds a great dimension to the group's thinking and actions.
On insanity, VtM is my principal game for actual characters and roleplaying in any meaningful way, I've seen so many Malkavians done terribly, all rubber chickens and wakka wakka bs, the only two I ever saw done well were: A) a malkavian drifter played by two different players, who worked alternating shifts at a local shop, we never knew which one would show up and play the character in a totally different way each session, sometimes in the middle of an encounter the other player would show up and play the character, in game, the character's persona would just have suddenly switched, it made for some classic moments. B) a malkavian priest who was played dead serious all the way through, he never manifested his insanity in front of the other characters, just in front of the other players, so he'd wander away from the group in a scenario and begin to talk to God about the path, about his redemption, about the 'gift' afforded to him to continue the Holy Work and about the fates and futures of the other characters, in creepy, quiet rants. All the players were treated to his really dark and unpleasant delusions, but their characters never ever knew, so they had to rp around their ooc knowledge of just how messed up and dangerous he was.
On insanity: even if your portrayal is not offensive, it's also important that you don't get in the way of the other players' enjoyment of the game.
My best character was one who wasn't the most stable of individuals, but hid it well. The clues were there if you knew what you were looking for, but she was mostly functional. And when she wasn't functional, it was when a bound slaver was trying to commit suicide by escaped slave, so while it would have changed the party dynamic if she had punched his head off his shoulders without the party stopping her, it wouldn't have ruined the game for everyone else just because "it's what my character would do!"
The best Malkavians I saw were the ones that weren't obviously insane. They kept their mental illnesses under wraps and hidden away, and unless you REALLY got nosy, with the best of them you'd never even know they had a derangement. I always appreciated players who were capable of having their own character's mental illness be a deeply personal thing, without feeling the need to broadcast it to everyone around them.
Melissia wrote: She was an incurable optimist in a Dark Heresy game.
Given the severity of some of the encounters that can be thrown at you in that setting, coming out of one of those with even a glimmer of optimism can be seen as something dangerously deranged.
Melissia wrote: I don't think I've ever played an RPG without trying to roleplay my character meaningfully.
A lot of 'rinse and repeat' dungeon bash style dnd and pathfinder where there is little to no time for interactive roleplay and instead a series of narratives, in character, by the dm and then into another series of corridors and encounters to kill and glean xp and loot from.
I don't enjoy them much but having moved around a great deal, I take what I can get.
I'm starting my own Rogue Trader in a couple of weeks, so whilst I will have to dm, at least I'll get some rp done.
Jimsolo wrote: Unfortunately, it seems like every gaming group I've ever seen has at least one of those people.
There are just some gamers who, even if they are totally good players otherwise, just lack the maturity or self-control to play a cross-gender character without getting silly, offensive, or distracting to the rest of the group.
It's also not hard to find a guy that has some sort of problem/issue/neurosis regarding women. Put five guys around a table, and is anybody shocked that one of them happens to have some ax to grind with women? Hell, one guy in my gaming group seems like a really nice guy, but clealry has some massive hang ups with women.
I don't think gamer's are any more or less mysogenist, they simply have fewer ways to really express it.
The dude that played a woman in one of my RPG's had the opposite problem really, he just played his character as he would a male character regardless of the circumstances.
Melissia wrote: She was an incurable optimist in a Dark Heresy game.
Given the severity of some of the encounters that can be thrown at you in that setting, coming out of one of those with even a glimmer of optimism can be seen as something dangerously deranged.
"Don't worry guys, I have a good feeling about this one!"
Corpsesarefun wrote: The dude that played a woman in one of my RPG's had the opposite problem really, he just played his character as he would a male character regardless of the circumstances.
In my Rogue Trader group we had one guy, who played the chaplain, which wasn't really by choice, but by chance, as he decided to randomly roll up his character, resulting in a noble born preacher who was always looking for donations for that big hole in the chapel roof. For the most part, he played his character as one of the guys, though this could've probably also had to do with us being navy characters, where all titles and whatnot are in male form only, though this could be due to the GM being a dick. Only real odd thing was whenever we got to a new world he had to get a fancy dress and would tell me that he still had to buy X more dresses until my demise. We also got into a big fight during a formal event, where (s)he wanted to dance with me, because I was the only other noble born character or something and I politely declined, which resulted in us bickering like an old couple until the captain had to pry himself free from his date and tell us to knock that gak off.
Melissia wrote: "Don't worry guys, I have a good feeling about this one!"
Oddly enough, she was actually rather successful in combat. She used a hand cannon with manstopper rounds, and did aimed headshots with remarkable success. Including some reahter hilarious headshots of villains that caused the GM to facepalm and decide that the gun needed a name.
Sure she wasn't wielding a heavy stubber or an autogun but she could defend herself as long as she didnt' get stuck in melee.
Regarding the blank bit, how do the others in your group play around with that bit? Because usually it's really hard to be around a blank, just look at Lizzy Bequin and Wystan Frauka from Eisenhorn and Ravenor and how people react to them.
They aren't though...they just take prep and imagination, and you are essentially batman. I made myself an iron golem, and ride on its shoulders with wand bracers, firing off quickened twin-shot enervations at all foolish enough to try and stop me. I made fake gold piece coins that when thrown, are fireballs!
Ever heard of Pun Pun? There is an artificer exploit that beats that exploit...its horrifing. Called the Omnificer
http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1481596 (The build)
I am a little surprised by the results of this poll. The last time this topic came up the results where totally inverse whit most groups answering that they had banned men from playing women characters. The topic of women playing ... well actually the topic that women even existed didn't even come up. It seems clear things have changed.
Personally I don't have any kind of problem with people playing out their gender. It's kind of the point of RP. Your trying to experience something new. Your trying to be something else your not in real life.
I also don't like to judge another players RP. How do you judge RP? I have my idea of what I think the best RP is, but I bet that my idea is different then someone else idea. What makes my view more valid then your view or your view more valid then mine? (Exception is when someone is offending someone else.)
I'll take a look at that Omnificer but in my experience Artificers are just terrible wizards with a warlocks item crafting bonuses, which saddens me as conceptually they are my favourite class.
I looked at the Omniscificer, it seems to be mostly for stopping pun-pun...
My artificer at level 10 between wand metamagic feats, can fire 8 enervation off in a round, dealing 8d4 negative levels before anyone can act by using the belt of battle im using (Free full round action 1/day like Celerity).
Back on topic, men generally can't play women well,but it can make some funny/interesting situations.
Oddly, I've noticed that I find playing women feels a bit more natural to me than playing men (I'm a cis-gendered man, for the record). I think it's because I like to have a certain distance from my character, an area in which they are decidedly Not Me, or else I drift into simply playing them as a copy of myself and it gets a bit boring.
I think the format makes a big difference. Face to face, you're constantly being reminded of the player's actual gender. I've done a lot (the majority, for the last ten years) of RP online, in text format, in chat rooms or message boards. Suspension of disbelief is much easier there. I've seen several other writers who can play men and women with equal fluency, to the point where I honestly wouldn't be able to guess the writer's actual gender.
No, less is less. It's possible to have too much, but more often than not, people don't do enough. This is especially noticeable in voice/face to face games, but I see things like "Okay, I attack the goblin", and I'm instantly bored. At least describe the attack a bit!
Well face to face games work differently. You have more room to be verbose. You don't have to type spell check or read everything. Also people have the ability to interrupt you when your talking. With text, I say the bigger problem I see is people typing too much. It slows things down. Often it's not because people are being overly descriptive, but more that they are trying to do too much in one action.
As a whole I like to be conservative with my word count though. I take consideration that people have to read what I type and try to stick to the important bits well cramming as much detail as I can into as small a space as I can. Using the right adverbs can help. Also a proper use of colored text can snip out a lot of words from a description.
Elemental wrote: I think it's because I like to have a certain distance from my character, an area in which they are decidedly Not Me
That's a very good point and why I ever played a female character in the first place. Funny enough, in that group no one batted an eye. But I've seen hostility to it, ranging from GM's ouright disallowing it to no one in the group even considering it to be a possibility, in other groups. I was recently tasked to play a female character with my current group in a game that had pregen characters because the GM considered me to be "the only one who could roleplay the character without being a fool," which I suppose is a compliment. Only trouble is, I was not really interested in the character.
Melissia wrote: True, text chat is almost wholly superior to voice or face to face.
I've never done online text roleplay, so I can't say anything about it, but don't knock old-fashioned face-to-face -- even for cross-gender characters: All the really great ones I've seen have been in face-to-face (because that's all I've ever played) and I totally believed that the somewhat pudgy woman across from me was a strapping male warrior or that the bald guy was a dark-haired female assassin..... And I'm an overweight, middle-aged, 5' 10" blond guy with glasses who has, apparently, gotten people to go along with the idea that he's a frail 4' 10" Victorian/gothic girl of about age 10.
Online RP's are like face to face - of ypu have angood group it is great, if you have a bad group it can be terrible. A single player can wreck either by being a tool.
I like online RP's because you have the time to write interesting posts. I don't like them because they take forever because you have to spend ages writing and reading interesting posts. I also have a terrible memory for names and find it hard to remember characters and players online sometimes. Face to face is much easier and much more social.
Really, for me, issue has never come up. I can see that it could be a problem with some immature/jerky players. I've seen plenty of female characters played by men (I often play a female myself), not one of them has been a stereotypical Boris Vallejo-style slutty sword chick (well, some have been close) or Anime sex kitten. I guess I have been lucky with the people I have played with.
Coincidentally, recently I began to play in L5R campaign too, and it happens I play a female Shugenja. Setting of L5R is such that it essentially impossible to fit a stereotypical Red Sonja-knockoff in chainmail bikini in it anyway. My co-players (all of them male playing male samurai) have not had any problems with my characters' gender. They do have lots of problems with my character having gone to Soshi school...
I did play one character who resembled the sexy enchantress archtype. I got an amusing reaction out of one of the other players when he realised she was in fact infecting her enemies with brain-eating tumors.
My roleplaying group is a bunch of writers, so we're all published with the exception of one newbie who still managed to do an exceptional job. We're people that understand what it is to be in character's heads and be a part of the story. Those sessions were the best RPG sessions of my life.
The game was L5R and every Friday, Larry Correia (Monster Hunter International.) posts the fiction we write about our gaming sessions on his blog.That's the only game where a tea ceremony can be as dangerous as a fight with an oni.
What I'm saying is that we're all experienced in RPG's, story telling, and are mature. If the group is good, there will be no problem playing gender swapped characters. If the group is less than ideal then....
As to the text comments, I have enjoyed a couple of well done text adventures on line, but in general I do prefer face to face.
Ah, that's the best part, she is not a Scorpion, but Unicorn who was sent to Soshi school (Different School advantage). Oh, and we play 2nd edition, and in that setting, Scorpion Coup is a recent event, so she gets a loads of funny looks from her kinsmen...
Text adventures can be fun, but my problem with them is that combat can be real slow. A chat session takes like 2 times more time than a live session.
Also, some players may have some attention issues in chat sessions if they only check the screen like every 3-4 minutes whilst they're playing WoW/surfing pr0n/whatever....
As a GM that ran (still running my DH campaign for close to 3 years now) multiple games on mIRC, played in much, much less (so hard getting to play) text is great as it concentrate a bit more on the game proper, not to mention, for me at least, allows to develop better writing skills and using words as imagery. Play by post is also good as you can write more and add details to your post.
A disadvantage or two would be that combat is longer to do on mIRC/PbP and it does take a bit to get things moving, as people need/begin to write something down, then they charge their minds about it-that is if they simply drop out of the blue because of unknown reasons (mostly saw it during games that took a more political/social turn instead of combat-combat-loot-shop-combat). Also, if some are not paying attention, it slows the action down. Not to mention a 5 minutes planning something in face-to-face, generally OOC, is longer to do on mIRC as it generally keeps the planning and discussions in character, so everyone got their own way of doing things and sharing info, not to mention character conflict and interest concerning the mission/goal
BUT, it does keep things focus on the current game, while face-to-face generally,at least in my case, goes off the rails pretty fast; starts at 7, but we do social and talk about this and that, starts at 7:30, then we goof off during the game, as this or that situation happens in game or out of it, take a braek as the chips come out and we talk about XYZ.....I do got to admit my weekly face-to-face game is mostly the only time I can actually speak of RPG/40k/other stuff I like 'in the flesh' with people without them not knowing what I'm talking/finding it boring or a waste of time.
So, here's a kindof odd question. How would people feel about a transgendered or crossdressing character? I had an idea for a Warpriest of Calistria that was a transvestite, but discarded it because I was afraid it would devolve into absurdity too quickly with other players. I've considered playing the character several times, but I can't see any way to keep people from going slowed with it, so the character sheet just sits there, and that is a bummer, because I tihnk it would be a really interesting thing to do.
MIni MIehm wrote: So, here's a kindof odd question. How would people feel about a transgendered or crossdressing character? I had an idea for a Warpriest of Calistria that was a transvestite, but discarded it because I was afraid it would devolve into absurdity too quickly with other players. I've considered playing the character several times, but I can't see any way to keep people from going slowed with it, so the character sheet just sits there, and that is a bummer, because I tihnk it would be a really interesting thing to do.
The concept of a female crossdresser hardly exists any more, so that would be a non-issue. I would have no issue with a male crossdresser as long as it doesn't turn into "Have I mentioned today that I'm a crossdresser?" and if someone does, it seems like it would be easy to defuse the situation just by playing with the usual "robes are dresses" joke:
"...He's wearing an ankle-length green dress."
"Wait, did you say a dress?"
"I'm sorry, I mean a robe. Philistine."
I played around with the idea of a cross dressing character. They where a drow and I had all this fluff though up around the concept, but the funny thing was that the cross dressing aspect rarely came up and there wasn't too much to actually do with it when it did. The cross dressing aspect ended up being a character artifact. Still around, but kind of buried under other details that mattered more.
Made some very bad experiences with cross-gender Characters and developed a habit to stay way from groups where Chars like that are present.
I have one big RP group where we established that we would not play Chars of the other gender. OFC, when meeting other groups you have situations where such Chars are present, but then you're either pleasantly surprised to see someone play competently, or there is plenty of room to excuse yourself from playing until we moved on again.
Its less of a problem over Text since the voice isnt distracting from the Chars gender, and its easier to stay way from creepy-stuff when doing Online-RP. This is also one of the major reasons I will never play face-to-face. I need my comfort zone when Roleplaying.
Greetings readers, I’m interested to find out how people feel about this particular blog post, because I consider it to be yet another (somewhat) controversial topic: playing RPG characters of a gender other than your own.
I should begin by stating that my personal opinion is that the whole point of roleplaying is to be someone other than yourself, and that can certainly include things like race (such as playing an elf) as well as social class (say, a king or prince) and, naturally, gender as well.
To reiterate: My opinion is that roleplaying a character of another gender from your own is just fine.
Also, just to clarify, I’m talking about a player roleplaying as another gender in a gaming group over a campaign, not the DM and not generally in one-shot games (such as ones found at gaming conventions).
This topic is somewhat controversial because there are many gaming groups out there where playing a character of another gender is discouraged or considered “weird.”
In my experience, many all-male groups find a male player roleplaying as a female character (aside from the GM) to be taboo. There are many other resources on the internet discussing this topic (such as Sandy Antunes' article) as well.
My Take
I think it is important to start out this topic by stating that I’ve played several female characters over the years, and many of them are amongst the most memorable characters I’ve ever created. So, keep in mind that I’m speaking from experience as a gamer who enjoys occasionally playing characters of another gender. I’m not going to classify myself as an expert by any means, however!
Our world is going through some interesting changes with how gender is perceived, especially with regards to gender roles, their perception (quite recently and prominently in the gaming space), human sexuality, and people who are transgender. I think now is a good time to continue the conversation about these issues through the lens of our shared hobby.
Why Play Another Gender?
This was not an easy blog post to write. My inner procrastinator actively attempted to discourage me from writing this by offering distraction after distraction, but… ooh, shiny! Seriously though, this is a topic I’ve wanted to cover for some time on Rogue Warden.
As I mentioned above, I think roleplaying as another gender is fine—it’s something I’ve done myself on many occasions. In addition, I think there’s something very rewarding about opening up and seeing things through the eyes of someone completely different from myself. This, of course, ncludes gender, expectations of gender roles, and how that gender is involved with the society of the game’s setting.
Roleplaying as a different gender, in my opinion, helps people understand gender issues like stereotypes, the reactions from people that other genders are exposed to, and the ramifications of a gender-separated society. For example, the Zentraedi race in the Robotech RPG are strictly segregated by gender. The males and females go so far as to have their own separate military formations, command structures, and unique war machines. It can be very interesting to explore some of the social issues that flow from such an usual structure.
To look at it from one perspective, I once wrote up an NPC who was the first woman paladin of a specific knightly order. This situation was interesting to me because of the idea of breaking down the social barriers barring women from fighting, and exploring some of the really unique elements (such as the way Paladins in this setting were focused on facing and defeating supernatural evil) that made this setup different. Another perspective is a legacy character I once designed based on the DC Comics setting, involving the son of Batman and Wonder Woman. The direction I wanted to go involved the boy learning to fight from his mother’s people, the Amazons, who have only very rarely welcomed men onto their secluded island.
Ultimately, roleplaying as a different gender is an experience that I would unhesitatingly recommend to most mature roleplayers. It provides a chance to see things through fresh eyes and can add some unique dynamics to make a particular character or campaign that much more memorable. Before I go on, however, let’s talk a bit about character concepts.
Gender and Character Concepts
I’ve been roleplaying now for over 29 years, and in that time, I’ve played a very large amount of different RPGs. My experience has taught me that I can come up with a character concept for just about any particular setting or campaign. However, I have also learned that, for me, some character concepts inherently possess characteristics that move them towards a particular gender.
For example, many of my character concepts are inherently masculine in my imagination. If I want to play Jack Burton, Jr., (from the film Big Trouble in Little China), I simply can’t imagine the character as anything other than a man. Similarly, I came up with a superhero-in-powered armor vigilante character idea called Technicality that just wouldn’t fit anything other than a woman.
Below is a brief selection of characters that I felt were inherently a feminine concept:
Technicality
As mentioned above, Technicality was one of the darker characters I ever played. She was featured in my good friend Grady Elliot's campaign, Vendetta Rhapsody. You can find her character sheet here.
Monolith
Featured in Digital Hero, this character was originally built for the old Marvel Super Heroes game by TSR. I especially enjoyed the playing-against-type bit in our high school game where she was one of the better football players in her school.
Ramien Meltides
One of my favorite tropes is the young innocent thrust into a world of adventure, and my first character to really take advantage of this was Ramien. She was a farmgirl fresh from the orchards of her homeland when she was plunged into a grand quest.
Miss Junior Olympia
A pastiche of Mary Marvel, this character was actually created by my good friend Robert Dorf for his Young Titans game, but I quickly adopted her. I love the idea of a “Mary Marvel”-esque character, especially with Robert’s particular twist that, in his campaign, each of the young heroes has a particular mentor. Miss Junior Olympia is being trained by Ithicles, a great hero who occasionally gets his ward into trouble.
Shadows Angelus
Now, this example is from the standpoint of a GM rather than a player. I ran two campaigns set in Shadows Angelus, both times with an all-male group of players. In the second game, I ended up with 4 female characters and 2 male characters. This made for an interesting dynamic that we nicknamed “Charlie’s Angels.” Having a group with the majority as female characters made for some very intriguing situations (especially when the characters were off-duty).
Fun Uber Alles
For me, roleplaying games are all about having fun above all. So, while I am an advocate for trying out roleplaying as another gender, and while for me personally, having something like that in a game is never a dealbreaker, I’d recommend testing the waters out with your group (i.e., talk it over!) before jumping in with both feet. I believe that (in general) having fun is optimized when everyone feels safe and comfortable! This next section of the post talks about the best practices (in my experience) that people should keep in mind when roleplaying as another gender.
For the Player
Maturity
This should go without saying, but I am a big believer in getting everything out in the open up front as much as possible: you should be a mature roleplayer to roleplay a gender other than your own. Portraying another gender in an immature or inappropriate manner makes everyone sad. It makes you sad, because doing this is tantamount to admitting idiocy. It also makes everyone else sad, because most gamers don’t show up to the table to see crude portrayals of other genders (especially with stereotypical or exaggerated social tropes).
This is not to say that you should never, ever roleplay as a character that exemplifies a stereotype—it can be done, and it can be done well. Even then, however, I would only entrust such a portrayal to a mature roleplayer.
Consistency
Roleplaying any character consistently is a vital element to making the other folks at the table understand what your character is about. I would say that consistency is even more important when you are roleplaying as another gender.
Separation from Reality
Roleplaying as another gender can be awkward, especially if other gamers around the table are focusing on the player’s appearance and mannerisms rather than his or her character’s. One possible solution for this is a tactic that helps separate the two.
One thing that has worked well for me is to have a picture of my character at the table, either printed out or present on an ipad or tablet. Putting this image up so that it is visible during roleplaying scenes can make it easier for other players to imagine interacting with your character rather than the player.
This separation works especially well over the internet. When I was playing on MUXes back in the day, the medium of pure text made the player’s real-life gender more or less irrelevant.
For the GM
Romance and Sex
In a character-driven campaign, it is not unlikely for characters to get into meaningful relationships—either with each other or prominent NPCs in the game setting. This can include situations such as romance and sex, both of which should be treated with respect when you are roleplaying as someone of the opposite gender. Gamemasters often roleplay as males and females of various races during the course of a campaign, and thus, GMs are the kinds of roleplayers who are generally most experienced at accurately and respectfully portraying someone of another gender from their own. Now, the subject of romance and sex in games is a large one—far too big for a single post to cover comprehensively—so all I will say here is that the GM should carefully consider how he approaches these issues in a campaign when the players are roleplaying as another gender. This consideration is just to ensure that (again) everyone feels comfortable during the game and that the most fun is had by all.
In Closing
Here are some interesting links discussing the concept of a man roleplaying as a woman and vice versa. I won’t say I agree with everything in these threads, but I think there’s some very interesting and thought-provoking material there for those who want to know more.
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