So i've seen an older thread on this but it was mostly a disorganized mess of angry people. Hopefully including a poll here will organize the dakkadakka community's thoughts on the primarchs.
If the primarchs were to fight each other one on one, at full strength, who would be the strongest duelist? I really durped here and forgot that Horus is almost the definitive answer, so I edited this to ask who the next strongest is, in everyone's opinion. That edit was made after only 4 votes, so consider the poll you see to be fairly accurate, only 2 votes had been put into Horus.
changerofways wrote: So i've seen an older thread on this but it was mostly a disorganized mess of angry people.
If the primarchs were to fight each other one on one, at full strength, who would be the strongest duelist?
obviously primarchs like the alpha legions' would not do well here because their strengths are other places than fighting, like tactics, but this is all about physical and magical strength and endurance.
actually question. When are we talking? During the Horus Heresy a lot happens. Lorgar goes from probably the worst to being an alpha to alpha plus level psyker that goes all martial, Horus gets buffed by all the gods, Angron I think becomes a prince by the end, etc etc etec.
StarTrotter wrote: actually question. When are we talking? During the Horus Heresy a lot happens. Lorgar goes from probably the worst to being an alpha to alpha plus level psyker that goes all martial, Horus gets buffed by all the gods, Angron I think becomes a prince by the end, etc etc etec.
As I said in the OP, at each primarchs strongest point in time.
StarTrotter wrote: actually question. When are we talking? During the Horus Heresy a lot happens. Lorgar goes from probably the worst to being an alpha to alpha plus level psyker that goes all martial, Horus gets buffed by all the gods, Angron I think becomes a prince by the end, etc etc etec.
As I said in the OP, at each primarchs strongest point in time.
Agh the levels of derp I had for shame. I said Magnus but change that to Horus. Dude was far too amped up.
Horus isn't even close to the strongest Primarch. He was the Emperor's favorite, but only gained strength after being made the partial avatar of all four gods of Chaos. Even then, Magnus would probably walk all over him.
It seems Magnus the Red is the winner so far. This is interesting because hes also the largest primarch at about 20 feet tall, according to another thread thats popular right now. Good old 40K, the larger they are, the more dangerous, nice and simple
I said vulkan, but just because the Tech-fu was strong with that one, and i like to picture one of his 2 remaining lost artifacts as a face-melting feth-your-face-u-lator.
LightKing wrote: didn't Horus say Sangunius was the most noble and should of been warmaster
Noble doesn't equal power. Magnus is hands-down the strongest- with only Russ (although IIRC, he still beat the snot out of him) and Chaos-buffed Horus being threats. Sure, all the other Primarchs are good, it's just Magnus is a mini GEOM.
SarisKhan wrote: I vote for one of the Daemon Primarchs, they're basically Primarchs+. Fulgrim owned Rowboat Girlyman, for instance.
Yes, Primarchs who have been elevated to daemonhood are usually in some form, even more powerful than their loyalist counterpart.
Though remember the status of deamonhood is a double edged sword. You can’t just have the benefits of being a daemon without also having its downsides.
LightKing wrote: didn't Horus say Sangunius was the most noble and should of been warmaster
Noble doesn't equal power. Magnus is hands-down the strongest- with only Russ (although IIRC, he still beat the snot out of him) and Chaos-buffed Horus being threats. Sure, all the other Primarchs are good, it's just Magnus is a mini GEOM.
The only thing we can say for certain about Magnus with regards to his power level is, that he never really lives up to his reputation. His fluff is just too inconsistent for us to have any clear picture of his power.
SarisKhan wrote: I vote for one of the Daemon Primarchs, they're basically Primarchs+. Fulgrim owned Rowboat Girlyman, for instance.
Yes, Primarchs who have been elevated to daemonhood are usually in some form, even more powerful than their loyalist counterpart.
Though remember the status of deamonhood is a double edged sword. You can’t just have the benefits of being a daemon without also having its downsides.
I agree. For instance, they're bound to sit in the Warp unless their cults conduct massive rituals and sacrifices, like during Angron's campaign.
SarisKhan wrote: I vote for one of the Daemon Primarchs, they're basically Primarchs+. Fulgrim owned Rowboat Girlyman, for instance.
Yes, Primarchs who have been elevated to daemonhood are usually in some form, even more powerful than their loyalist counterpart.
Though remember the status of deamonhood is a double edged sword. You can’t just have the benefits of being a daemon without also having its downsides.
I agree. For instance, they're bound to sit in the Warp unless their cults conduct massive rituals and sacrifices, like during Angron's campaign.
Exactly! Hell, it is also problematic and highly indignifying for a daemon if you just so happen to know it’s true name.
Unfortunately for the traitor Primarchs, their respective names are rather well-known in the Inquisitorial community.
Redcruisair wrote: Exactly! Hell, it is also problematic and highly indignifying for a daemon if you just so happen to know it’s true name.
Unfortunately for the traitor Primarchs, their respective names are rather well-known in the Inquisitorial community.
I think I read somewhere that you obtain a "new name" once you ascend to Daemonhood, so that those who used to know you as a human can't use the original one to mess you up. I'm not entirely sure about this, though.
Now I think I remember reading something but I actually thing that the most 'Physically' strong was either Vulcan, Ferrus or Magnus...but I'm inclined to say Vulcan...Nocturne's gravity makes extraordinarily naturally strong people so Vulcan already strong Nature with him being a Primarch would have been enhanced anyway...
My vote is for either Angron, Sanguinius, and Magnus. I don't think there's enough additional material to draw a total conclusion after them.
Angron has beaten even Russ in fair combat, (Read: Betrayer) has the strength to counteract the downwards force of a Titan foot crushing him, and is basically regarded as a Gladiator-Warrior and nothing else. He's a mean, angry thing.
Sanguinius is certainly strong having been able to stand up to Horus for a time, and his Wings also help I guess, but I can't say more than that having detested reading Fear to Tread.
Magnus, being a great psyker has variable and unmeasurable levels of strength when pitted against each Primarch so he probably doesn't have a clear position, but he sounds like he'd give most of them a run for their money. In particular he has an advantage against Angron because the nails would probably go mental with him close by.
changerofways wrote: So i've seen an older thread on this but it was mostly a disorganized mess of angry people.
This will happen again. Just warning you.
Seriously.
It isn't like this place is the bastion of reason and intelligent discussion. You pose something subjective, and it's going to go bad on Dakka every time.
Edit: Just saw the primarch pet names. And you wanted to have an organized, rational discussion? Ooookay.
Very hard to measure fluff considering how much is apocryphal or "embellished", but Greater Daemons>Daemon Prince, and if Sanguinius broke Ka'Bandha over his knee then presumably he could've dome some work on a Daemon Prince. Of course Daemon Primarchs are almost certainly not your average Daemon Prince.
Horus did regard Sanguinius however to be the greatest of the Primarchs besides himself, as noted above.
godking wrote: Angron and Sanguinus are the only two primarchs who everybody agrees could have taken Horus in a duel.
Magnus psyker abiliteis vastly outstrip those of Horus though.
is their a consensus that if the Heresy never happened....would Magnus of surpassed the Emperor in psychic ability.. if he didn't let Horus get to him.....
i always find it odd, that the Emperor's favorite was Horus, but he wanted Magnus to sit on the golden throne after him
godking wrote: Angron and Sanguinus are the only two primarchs who everybody agrees could have taken Horus in a duel.
Magnus psyker abiliteis vastly outstrip those of Horus though.
is their a consensus that if the Heresy never happened....would Magnus of surpassed the Emperor in psychic ability.. if he didn't let Horus get to him.....
i always find it odd, that the Emperor's favorite was Horus, but he wanted Magnus to sit on the golden throne after him
Magnus has the psychic ability to sit on the Golden throne and live Horus does not.
Next to the emperor Magnus was the strongest psyker in the imperium.
It's made pretty clear in the HH series that the only reason Vulkan ever actually lost a physical battle with his brothers is because he didn't want to hurt them and held back.
Anyway, Magnus is the most powerful, both in demonstrated feats of raw fuckery, and he has quite a bit of backing in-universe, from the likes of Lucius, Lorgar, and even implicitly Horus himself. When Lorgar went buck-wild on Horus' ship (to the point of telepathically commanding Horus), Horus deferred to Magnus to stop him, with Magnus telling him to sack up and handle his own gak. Magnus is demonstrably more psychically powerful than Lorgar from the other side of the galaxy.
Though, when you said "duel", did you mean only in terms of martial skill?
I'd say that Magnus the Red was stronger (or more powerful) than even horus. he could kill with his mind alone (even horus would not have been able to defend himself) from the other side ofthe galaxy in a time when the warp was aswirl with huge storms which would hamper him. His self control and loyalty prevented him from doing such things until he accidentally did it with backwash when he traveled to Terra. Look what he did on accident then. Imagine what he could have done if he had put even half of that power into a surgical strike bust on an individual. even a primarch woulda been burnt to cinders.
I thought the OP was Strongest...not Most martially adept??? Just saying as I think people have gone off down the Psyker rabbit hole...or the Martial prowess one. Physically strong is a toss between the Gorgon, The Lord of Drakes or the Cyclops just saying that's all...
Void__Dragon wrote: Anyway, Magnus is the most powerful, both in demonstrated feats of raw fuckery, and he has quite a bit of backing in-universe, from the likes of Lucius, Lorgar, and even implicitly Horus himself. When Lorgar went buck-wild on Horus' ship (to the point of telepathically commanding Horus), Horus deferred to Magnus to stop him, with Magnus telling him to sack up and handle his own gak. Magnus is demonstrably more psychically powerful than Lorgar from the other side of the galaxy.
Though, when you said "duel", did you mean only in terms of martial skill?
As I said in the original post, its a battle of physical and magical strength and endurance.
So yes, magnus can use his magic noodles.
I'm deciding to remove alpharius. How the hell does he have 3 votes?
They are everywhere! They sneak in and so much have they done! They are the Alpha Legio-hragharahara *faints*
Anyways, hrmmm Sanguinus is winning O.o I guess his battle with a greater daemon won some other? Or maybe its just the jokes he can woo ladies and men with his wings and glorious hair!
Void__Dragon wrote: Anyway, Magnus is the most powerful, both in demonstrated feats of raw fuckery, and he has quite a bit of backing in-universe, from the likes of Lucius, Lorgar, and even implicitly Horus himself. When Lorgar went buck-wild on Horus' ship (to the point of telepathically commanding Horus), Horus deferred to Magnus to stop him, with Magnus telling him to sack up and handle his own gak. Magnus is demonstrably more psychically powerful than Lorgar from the other side of the galaxy.
Though, when you said "duel", did you mean only in terms of martial skill?
As I said in the original post, its a battle of physical and magical strength and endurance.
So yes, magnus can use his magic noodles.
I'm deciding to remove alpharius. How the hell does he have 3 votes?
LOL, Even if it was only physical strength as in who can lift the heaviest weights, magnus would still win hands down as he can boost hi strength using psychics.
i agree, alpherios and the other bobsy twin should just be removed as they are the weak sisters in all ways but sneakynes and underhandedness. Perhaps being the runts of the litter has something to do with that lol.
As big of a SW fan as I am, I gotta go with magnus. Even though Russ broke him, I think Magnus was the strongest. Horus had Russ kill Magnus for a reason, and I think that was because Horus feared what Magnus was capable of. Magnus could wipe out armies with his mind, open a portal and leap between stars. Dude was pretty boss.
As it stands after reading the abortion that is An Unreemmbered Empire, surely it has to be Vulkan considering that he can't actually be killed? Angron could decapitate him and burn his body, and he would still just get up and be pissed off twenty minutes later. Curze is pretty bad ass on paper considering he seems to have beaten almost everyone up, but a flaming Vulkan gets up swinging everytime that Curze takes him down.
It makes no sense at all and ruined the whole show for me, but off that evidence, ultimately you have to go with him because at least all of the other ones can actually fething die!
Bad fluff aside, common sense would demand Gulliman. He is literally the only professional soldier out of all of them. If the whole setting was real, it would be like asking who would win out of a Special Forces Operator and 17 National Guardsmen with emotional issues. Guilliman is genuinely professional, he trains, he studies, he is balanced, he doesn't have mental issues, he practices every day with a range of weapons, and studies tactics and war. He would be the best shot from all his range time and time spent in the field actually improving his skills, not getting drunk or perpetuating a massacre like Curze or Russ. He would be the fittest, because he apparently is the only one who actually trains, so he would be push-up champion of the cosmos as well, and he would be the best officer because he studies and doesn't mind hitting the books, so he would be the most versatile, and he even trains with other weapons from around the galaxy, so he would fit in better with other legions or forces, which would occasionally happen because no plan survives the shooting.
Basically, he is the consummate soldier, and he is surrounded by 17 fething idiots, so if I ignore the rag tag scribblings of the civilians that write for BL and simply go with what I know about the Primarchs and their apparent habits, this green beret sides with Roboute, as dull as he might sound compared to "characters" like Angron or Curze.
I mean, don't get me wrong, If I wanted my bachelor party organizing he would be bottom of the list, but we are talking about soldiering here!
mattyrm wrote: As it stands after reading the abortion that is An Unreemmbered Empire, surely it has to be Vulkan considering that he can't actually be killed? Angron could decapitate him and burn his body, and he would still just get up and be pissed off twenty minutes later. Curze is pretty bad ass on paper considering he seems to have beaten almost everyone up, but a flaming Vulkan gets up swinging everytime that Curze takes him down.
It makes no sense at all and ruined the whole show for me, but off that evidence, ultimately you have to go with him because at least all of the other ones can actually fething die!
Bad fluff aside, common sense would demand Gulliman. He is literally the only professional soldier out of all of them. If the whole setting was real, it would be like asking who would win out of a Special Forces Operator and 17 National Guardsmen with emotional issues. Guilliman is genuinely professional, he trains, he studies, he is balanced, he doesn't have mental issues, he practices every day with a range of weapons, and studies tactics and war. He would be the best shot from all his range time and time spent in the field actually improving his skills, not getting drunk or perpetuating a massacre like Curze or Russ. He would be the fittest, because he apparently is the only one who actually trains, so he would be push-up champion of the cosmos as well, and he would be the best officer because he studies and doesn't mind hitting the books, so he would be the most versatile, and he even trains with other weapons from around the galaxy, so he would fit in better with other legions or forces, which would occasionally happen because no plan survives the shooting.
Basically, he is the consummate soldier, and he is surrounded by 17 fething idiots, so if I ignore the rag tag scribblings of the civilians that write for BL and simply go with what I know about the Primarchs and their apparent habits, this green beret sides with Roboute, as dull as he might sound compared to "characters" like Angron or Curze.
I mean, don't get me wrong, If I wanted my bachelor party organizing he would be bottom of the list, but we are talking about soldiering here!
The same Guilliman who was completly suprised at Calth had his skull fractured by Lorgar and was manhandled by Angron ?
LOL, yeah, Old gully while not being a weak sister like alpharious and the other bobsy twin, was not one of the heavy hitters. I consider him more of the file clerk or paper pusher of the bunch.
While vulken may not be killable (thanks guys for spiling that for me as I have not read that book yet by the way), He can be contained and incapacitated fairly easily someone such as magnus. (or even others who have indeed done just that).
mattyrm wrote: As it stands after reading the abortion that is An Unreemmbered Empire, surely it has to be Vulkan considering that he can't actually be killed? Angron could decapitate him and burn his body, and he would still just get up and be pissed off twenty minutes later. Curze is pretty bad ass on paper considering he seems to have beaten almost everyone up, but a flaming Vulkan gets up swinging everytime that Curze takes him down.
It makes no sense at all and ruined the whole show for me, but off that evidence, ultimately you have to go with him because at least all of the other ones can actually fething die!
Bad fluff aside, common sense would demand Gulliman. He is literally the only professional soldier out of all of them. If the whole setting was real, it would be like asking who would win out of a Special Forces Operator and 17 National Guardsmen with emotional issues. Guilliman is genuinely professional, he trains, he studies, he is balanced, he doesn't have mental issues, he practices every day with a range of weapons, and studies tactics and war. He would be the best shot from all his range time and time spent in the field actually improving his skills, not getting drunk or perpetuating a massacre like Curze or Russ. He would be the fittest, because he apparently is the only one who actually trains, so he would be push-up champion of the cosmos as well, and he would be the best officer because he studies and doesn't mind hitting the books, so he would be the most versatile, and he even trains with other weapons from around the galaxy, so he would fit in better with other legions or forces, which would occasionally happen because no plan survives the shooting.
Basically, he is the consummate soldier, and he is surrounded by 17 fething idiots, so if I ignore the rag tag scribblings of the civilians that write for BL and simply go with what I know about the Primarchs and their apparent habits, this green beret sides with Roboute, as dull as he might sound compared to "characters" like Angron or Curze.
I mean, don't get me wrong, If I wanted my bachelor party organizing he would be bottom of the list, but we are talking about soldiering here!
The same Guilliman who was completly suprised at Calth had his skull fractured by Lorgar and was manhandled by Angron ?
Lorgar then proceeded to beat the everloving crap out of him again when Angron returned to his home planet to ascend.
The same Guilliman who was completely suprised at Calth had his skull fractured by Lorgar and was manhandled by Angron ?
Yeah thats the one, did you read the whole post or just read "Gulliman" and then go ape gak?
I have read all of the books, I might have lost interest after the first five, but I've still read them, the whole post was about the fact that they are badly written and poorly thought out, and in reality Gulliman would be the best because he is the only one who actully does his job properly. His brothers are either bat gak crazy, or dont do their fething jobs at all. They are supposed to be soldiers and generals first and foremost, and he is the only one who actually throws himself into the job with gusto, ergo the rest of his brothers are like mentally deranged National Guardsman, and he is like a friggin Navy SEAL.
Plus, even if you cite individual incidents, like getting beat up by an individual primarch, they are wildly varying and ludicrous. One minute Guilliman is getting beaten up by a regular Space Marine, the next thing he kills 20 single handedly and unarmed. One minute he gets beat up by Lorgar, the next he holds his own against both Lorgar and Angron at the same time.
One minute Curze is kicking the Lions ass, the next the Lion is beating him up, the next he is happily fighting almost everyone all at once.
The point was that the fluff has become silly because there are too many books, too many angles, and too many writers, but if the whole thing was actually grounded in reality, Guilliman would be far and away the most useful soldier. The rest are either deranged, insane, emotionally crippled, or lazy and don't bother do any training or exercise.
Being deranged and mentally unstable helps a great deal in terms of martial combat. Look at the barbarians of Gaul, who were individually better fighters than the Roman Legions.
"The Gauls will break in five minutes against a Legion shieldwall, but that wall needs to hold against the Gauls for five minutes."
- Roman proverb
Angron would realistically manhandle Guilliman in hand-to-hand because that is all he was trained for and all he does. Angron may or may not train outside of combat, but he enters combat a lot. Much like how a trained, renowned gladiator would manhandle almost any Navy Seal or Green Beret in martial combat. Of course, you would be right to say that the firearms of either would prove more than a match for any gladiator, and would be right, but martial combat is the preferred method of fighting of the Primarchs, because it takes advantage of their superhuman physiology. And also, of course, because 40k is a fantasy series in space, and the Ultramarines are inspired by the Roman Legion.
Also, Guilliman held against Angron and Lorgar very briefly. Lorgar left the fight quickly to focus on channeling his sorcery. Guilliman to his credit did hold out against Angron for a while and dealt him some good blows, but he did ultimately lose. I also have no clue where you are getting this "only Guilliman trains" thing from.
And if Guilliman can be steamrolled by the sorcery of Kor Phaeron, Magnus or Lorgar would end him.
Overall, Magnus is the mightiest of the Primarchs. In martial ability alone, it is a bit harder to call. Skill plays a big part, but so does weaponry, strength, agility, endurance, etc. All of the Primarchs have this in varying amounts.
Ferrus trained and set up combat doctrines like Gulliman, Sanguinius was none of the things you claimed but instead what Horus feared his greatest threat, Dorn built a fortress that half the legions, half the imperial navy and army and half the mechanicum couldnt crack, Magnus could see what the enemy were going to do before they did it (that give you more power than any training), and both Horus and the Lion have been described as master tacticians... I think the smurf love has blinded you to the strengths of others!
Remember these are superhumans... more superman than kickass, they dont need to work out!
Void__Dragon wrote: Being deranged and mentally unstable helps a great deal in terms of martial combat. Look at the barbarians of Gaul, who were individually better fighters than the Roman Legions.
Fair point with Magnus, psyching is a big deal in the 40k universe, the above quote is absolute nonsense however.
Who says they were "individually" better fighters? An individual is exactly that, an individual. Some individuals are exceptional, some are below average. Some Roman Legionnaires were exceptional and would take apart some barbarians. The reason a berserk fighter is dangerous is because they have no heed for their own safety, so even if you win they may well critically injure you as they wade into the fray, but if you take people of the exact same individual merit, and train one of them rigorously, that one will take the other one to bits.
Put Manny Pacquiao on a beer and twinkie diet for 12 months and let Floyd Mayweather train as normal, see if anyone thinks that fight will be "too close to call" then.
And I said Guilliman is the only one who trains a lot because it says so in the fluff. He seems to be the only one who trains with numerous weapon systems, hits the practice cages, spars regularly, and also does that important tactical gak that high ranking officers concern themselves with while the grunts just have to keep fit. Angron does indeed seem to be exceptional at fighting, but he sucks at everything else, ergo if we judge "strongest" Primarch from the viewpoint of a soldier (lets be honest, that is their job) and the one who is the most complete package in that role, its not Angron, its Gulliman, because he is better than him at almost everything else, he would also be a much better marksman, engineer, medic, tactician, administrator, officer, leader, orator, scholar, sailor, candlestick maker, whatever.
He is an intellectual and well rounded individual in a setting filled with bat gak crazy.
Sanguinius seems pretty good, Magnus would undeniably be the best in duel, and the Lion is looking less narcissistic as the series goes on, Vulkan and the Khan are still not fleshed out enough to know, but one thing you can say for certainty is that the "strongest" is not going to be one of the mentally ill Primarchs like Curze or Angron.
Unless you mean "strongest" as in benchpress or boxing or something at which point it may well be one of the gak for brains guys like Russ or Angron, but really, if you were a soldier would you want to work for those guys?!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Poly Ranger wrote: Ferrus trained and set up combat doctrines like Gulliman, Sanguinius was none of the things you claimed but instead what Horus feared his greatest threat, Dorn built a fortress that half the legions, half the imperial navy and army and half the mechanicum couldnt crack, Magnus could see what the enemy were going to do before they did it (that give you more power than any training), and both Horus and the Lion have been described as master tacticians... I think the smurf love has blinded you to the strengths of others!
Remember these are superhumans... more superman than kickass, they dont need to work out!
Some good points, Dorn seems a pretty good soldier as well, but he also displays worrying psychological traits, I lost all respect for him after he threatened Garro, and the whole iron cage thing means I wouldn't like to serve as a soldier in his legion.
Same goes for Ferrus, he fethed up massively so I lose respect for him, the whole charging in blind thing is not something Gulliman would have done.
Sanguinius I will give you, he too seems a great man. And I suppose they dont need to work out, preposterous as it sounds.
The point is, I understand soldiering, I served in a combat role for a decade and based my judgements on my own real life assessment. With that in mind, is it possible not to love the "smurfs"?
If any professional combat soldier was made aware of all the facts had to pick a primarch to serve under, I guarantee every single one of them would say Gulliman, he is the only level headed guy in the setting that is not guaranteed to get you all slaughtered!
Fair point with Magnus, psyching is a big deal in the 40k universe, the above quote is absolute nonsense however.
Who says they were "individually" better fighters?
The Romans themselves.
An individual is exactly that, an individual. Some individuals are exceptional, some are below average.
But there is an average.
Some Roman Legionnaires were exceptional and would take apart some barbarians.
Most would not.
The reason a berserk fighter is dangerous is because they have no heed for their own safety, so even if you win they may well critically injure you as they wade into the fray, but if you take people of the exact same individual merit, and train one of them rigorously, that one will take the other one to bits.
Ferocity is a powerful advantage in a fight. In a war, however, discipline does win, which is what you seem to be saying.
The Romans didn't train to be duelists by and large. We can see this in their weaponry. Look at the gladius. In a duel, it frankly leaves much to be desired. But for what it does, in a tight formation? It was one of the deadliest weapons on the battlefield, save only the mighty shovel.
Put Manny Pacquiao on a beer and twinkie diet for 12 months and let Floyd Mayweather train as normal, see if anyone thinks that fight will be "too close to call" then.
The Gauls trained and they didn't just sit around and get fat before going to war, lol. Nor do any of the Primarchs. Your analogy is disingenuous.
And I said Guilliman is the only one who trains a lot because it says so in the fluff.
Where.
He seems to be the only one who trains with numerous weapon systems, hits the practice cages, spars regularly, and also does that important tactical gak that high ranking officers concern themselves with while the grunts just have to keep fit. Angron does indeed seem to be exceptional at fighting, but he sucks at everything else, ergo if we judge "strongest" Primarch from the viewpoint of a soldier (lets be honest, that is their job) and the one who is the most complete package in that role, its not Angron, its Gulliman, because he is better than him at almost everything else, he would also be a much better marksman, engineer, medic, tactician, administrator, officer, leader, orator, scholar, sailor, candlestick maker, whatever.
Did you read the OP?
This is in a duel. Not in command of an army.
Guilliman would crush Angron Legion vs. Legion, I don't think anyone disputes that, but in a duel, aka what this thread is about, Angron has Guilliman's number.
You are exactly right in noting that Angron's prowess in martial combat is all Angron has going for him. It pretty much is. That is the point of his character.
He is an intellectual and well rounded individual in a setting filled with bat gak crazy.
Sanguinius seems pretty good, Magnus would undeniably be the best in duel, and the Lion is looking less narcissistic as the series goes on, Vulkan and the Khan are still not fleshed out enough to know, but one thing you can say for certainty is that the "strongest" is not going to be one of the mentally ill Primarchs like Curze or Angron.
Once again, this thread is explicitly about prowess in a duelist. Not as a general.
Unless you mean "strongest" as in benchpress or boxing or something at which point it may well be one of the gak for brains guys like Russ or Angron, but really, if you were a soldier would you want to work for those guys?!
Benchpress or boxing prowess would actually have more relevance in this thread than a strong grasp in logistics, lol.
And Leman Russ isn't an idiot. Or rather, he isn't supposed to be. You may have drawn that conclusion of him. I sometimes do myself.
Yeah the Gladius changed the world because it was designed to be only around as long as a mans forearm, the beserk fighters would carry large long weapons which meant that they had to be spread wider apart on the battlefield lest they risked hitting their comrades. The Romans would lock shields and use their short stabbing swords, meaning that when they were charged, there would always be three romans facing one barbarian, regardless of the numbers involved. I remember reading about it years ago, and that was the point I was trying to make, there is more to war than a duel.
As you say, if you are simply talking about a 1 v 1 fight, then obviously psychic gak means a deal as well. Magnus would be rock, but Corax is fething invisible and Vulkan is invincible! The point I was making is that the question seems a little silly, and it depends on the context, its not a case of locking two in a tiny cage and seeing who would win surely? Even in a cage fight, Angron would seem logical, or Curze who despite not being mentioned as being such a tough guy initially seems to be kicking everyones asses in the last three books!
So I approached the question logically, as in all around best, or simply put, the bloke I would want as my company commander in a war, and its Guilliman hands down.
Plus, he is hardly a slouch in a one on one fight anyway, because as I mentioned the fluff is contradictory, and several times he has been depicted as being a crazy bad ass, in such a scenario, it seems that a one on one fist fight would be impossible to call anyway, because on any given day any one seems capable of besting another.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the same token, why is Horus deemed to be the best duelist anyway? He doesn't seem to have actually done any fighting at all other than when he has been amped up by the chaos gods, if we are just talking a straight fight, surely he should not be allowed to win by default as he wouldn't be the superpowered version right?
So I approached the question logically, as in all around best, or simply put, the bloke I would want as my company commander in a war, and its Guilliman hands down.
That wasnt the question in the OP, it was who is the "Strongest Primarch in a duel" not which Primarch would you like to be your company commander.
mattyrm wrote: As it stands after reading the abortion that is An Unreemmbered Empire, surely it has to be Vulkan considering that he can't actually be killed? Angron could decapitate him and burn his body, and he would still just get up and be pissed off twenty minutes later. Curze is pretty bad ass on paper considering he seems to have beaten almost everyone up, but a flaming Vulkan gets up swinging everytime that Curze takes him down.
It makes no sense at all and ruined the whole show for me, but off that evidence, ultimately you have to go with him because at least all of the other ones can actually fething die!
Bad fluff aside, common sense would demand Gulliman. He is literally the only professional soldier out of all of them. If the whole setting was real, it would be like asking who would win out of a Special Forces Operator and 17 National Guardsmen with emotional issues. Guilliman is genuinely professional, he trains, he studies, he is balanced, he doesn't have mental issues, he practices every day with a range of weapons, and studies tactics and war. He would be the best shot from all his range time and time spent in the field actually improving his skills, not getting drunk or perpetuating a massacre like Curze or Russ. He would be the fittest, because he apparently is the only one who actually trains, so he would be push-up champion of the cosmos as well, and he would be the best officer because he studies and doesn't mind hitting the books, so he would be the most versatile, and he even trains with other weapons from around the galaxy, so he would fit in better with other legions or forces, which would occasionally happen because no plan survives the shooting.
Basically, he is the consummate soldier, and he is surrounded by 17 fething idiots, so if I ignore the rag tag scribblings of the civilians that write for BL and simply go with what I know about the Primarchs and their apparent habits, this green beret sides with Roboute, as dull as he might sound compared to "characters" like Angron or Curze.
I mean, don't get me wrong, If I wanted my bachelor party organizing he would be bottom of the list, but we are talking about soldiering here!
You summarized my thoughts quite well. Guilliman is a rare success of the Primarch program. I am glad to see his character (and my nickname Gully) are starting to gain traction on this forum in lieu of the usual Rowboat Girlyman 4chan nonsense. Fulgrim is my go to guy for bachelor parties though.
and it is funny you should ask whether a soldier would want to work for Russ or Angron. In the latest HH book Scars, an aspirant earmarked for the Luna Wolves gets reassigned to the White Scars at the last moment. He is pretty upset, but consoles himself with the thought that at least it wasn't the Wolves or the War Hounds.
mattyrm wrote: Bad fluff aside, common sense would demand Gulliman. He is literally the only professional soldier out of all of them. If the whole setting was real, it would be like asking who would win out of a Special Forces Operator and 17 National Guardsmen with emotional issues.
You first mistake is applying real world common sense to 40k. Yes, in the real world navy seal guy beats merlin the magician every time. But that's only because in the real world magic isn't real.
So I approached the question logically, as in all around best, or simply put, the bloke I would want as my company commander in a war, and its Guilliman hands down.
That wasnt the question in the OP, it was who is the "Strongest Primarch in a duel" not which Primarch would you like to be your company commander.
Yeah Ive grasped that now, its still a bad question though isnt it? I mean, according to the whim of the far too many writers of the far too many books, any one of them can beat another on any given day!
The "powers" thing seems to make the question even harder to answer, because Vulkan is fething invincible, surely making him an inevitable winner? Magnus can do crazy magic, Corax can turn bloody invisible, and Sanguinius can friggin fly!
If it was a boxing tournament and no powers were allowed, I suppose Id have to go with Angron, but he could lost to pretty much any of them on any given day according to the books, almost all of them have lost a fight and won a fight, sometimes even to the same guy, and he does seem like a bit of an idiot, but I suppose he is as good as anybody else.
If it was merely "have a fight on a continent" with no rules, then I reckon its fair game for anyone, you might as well pull a name from a hat!
Yeah Ive grasped that now, its still a bad question though isnt it?
No, the question is fine, you just don't seem to want to answer it directly for some reason.
There is an established hierarchy within the Heresy series, and its been pretty consistent in regards to who is stronger than who. Kurze beat Dorn so badly that Dorn's mind has actually buried the incident because thinking about it causes him anguish. That's pretty conclusive in deciding who is the better fighter between the two. Guilliman was brought to his knees by a psychic attack from Kor Phaeron. That's pretty conclusive in deciding how well he would fare against a psyker of Magnus or Lorgar's capacity. Etc etc.
So it's not that silly of a question at all, and is in fact quite easy to answer.
The correct answer to the thread is Magnus the Red. Guilliman's tactical acuity and wide plethora of knowledge will do nothing to protect him from psychic assaults, and that goes for everybody. The only way to beat a psyker is to have a null around or a stronger psyker. None of the Primarchs possess either of those qualities.
No, the question is fine, you just don't seem to want to answer it directly for some reason.
There is an established hierarchy within the Heresy series, and its been pretty consistent in regards to who is stronger than who. Kurze beat Dorn so badly that Dorn's mind has actually buried the incident because thinking about it causes him anguish. That's pretty conclusive in deciding who is the better fighter between the two. Guilliman was brought to his knees by a psychic attack from Kor Phaeron. That's pretty conclusive in deciding how well he would fare against a psyker of Magnus or Lorgar's capacity. Etc etc.
So it's not that silly of a question at all, and is in fact quite easy to answer.
Yes it is, its only easy to answer if you don't think very hard! I would have all sorts of questions. What are the rules? Where does it take place? Are they naked? Do they have time to prepare?
Just because Curze beat Dorn up when Dorn didnt expect a bat in the mouth, doesnt mean therefore that Curze will always beat Dorn now does it? How many boxers beat their opponent the first time and lose the rematch?
The correct answer to the thread is Magnus the Red. Guilliman's tactical acuity and wide plethora of knowledge will do nothing to protect him from psychic assaults, and that goes for everybody. The only way to beat a psyker is to have a null around or a stronger psyker. None of the Primarchs possess either of those qualities
Pff.. why dont they have those qualities? That was my point, there isnt enough detail about the fight, where does it take place? Can you prepare? Can you bring weapons or tools?
Easy answer to that is, have a blank nullify the psyker, or bring one of the many trinkets that nullify physic powers, and then promptly beat the gak out of Magnus.
Furthermore, surely if you involve psychic powers, it isnt a "fight" its a psychic battle. Obviously Magnus is easily the most powerful psyker, but Russ still managed to snap his back.
i never clicked on any of tem although i have replied. I dont think horus was the most powerful at all. I think in terms of power and ability to do damage in any sort of dual would go to magnus. Horus might come in 2nd but magnus would curbstomp even horus, IF he were to have tried.
I didnt think it was awful, I just think it fethed the whole story up for me, because I enjoyed the vagueness.
And the whole Vulkan thing really was silly in my book, I mean, what was the point?
Well, for one the revelation that the Emperor is also a perpetual creates tons of fun questions about the fact that he's rotting in the golden throne.
Two, it creates a ton of fun scenarios regarding Vulkan and his "disappearance" in the 40k universe.
I think both are a far reaching stroke of genius that adds a great deal of depth to both universes.
There's still plenty of vagueness for you to play with. It's just different, new vagueness.
In regards to the OP. Ignore the fact that Vulkan is a perpetual, and focus on the fact that Vulkan (and let's assume he wasn't lying) states that the only reason any of his brothers have stood a chance against him in combat is because he holds back so not to hurt them.
Here's the quote:
“Of all of us, father made me the strongest. Physically, I have no equal amongst my siblings. In the sparring cages I used to hold back… especially against you, Konrad.”
Excerpt From: Kyme, Nick. “Vulkan Lives.” Black Library, 2013-07. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
I didnt think it was awful, I just think it fethed the whole story up for me, because I enjoyed the vagueness.
And the whole Vulkan thing really was silly in my book, I mean, what was the point?
Well, for one the revelation that the Emperor is also a perpetual creates tons of fun questions about the fact that he's rotting in the golden throne.
Two, it creates a ton of fun scenarios regarding Vulkan and his "disappearance" in the 40k universe.
I think both are a far reaching stroke of genius that adds a great deal of depth to both universes.
There's still plenty of vagueness for you to play with. It's just different, new vagueness.
In regards to the OP. Ignore the fact that Vulkan is a perpetual, and focus on the fact that Vulkan (and let's assume he wasn't lying) states that the only reason any of his brothers have stood a chance against him in combat is because he holds back so not to hurt them.
Here's the quote:
“Of all of us, father made me the strongest. Physically, I have no equal amongst my siblings. In the sparring cages I used to hold back… especially against you, Konrad.”
Excerpt From: Kyme, Nick. “Vulkan Lives.” Black Library, 2013-07. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Vulkan FTW.
Woah thats awesome I have never read that. Even if he is exaggerating, he gets up as soon as you kill him, I don't see how anyone else could win anyway!
The same Guilliman who was completely suprised at Calth had his skull fractured by Lorgar and was manhandled by Angron ?
Yeah thats the one, did you read the whole post or just read "Gulliman" and then go ape gak?
I have read all of the books, I might have lost interest after the first five, but I've still read them, the whole post was about the fact that they are badly written and poorly thought out, and in reality Gulliman would be the best because he is the only one who actully does his job properly. His brothers are either bat gak crazy, or dont do their fething jobs at all. They are supposed to be soldiers and generals first and foremost, and he is the only one who actually throws himself into the job with gusto, ergo the rest of his brothers are like mentally deranged National Guardsman, and he is like a friggin Navy SEAL.
Plus, even if you cite individual incidents, like getting beat up by an individual primarch, they are wildly varying and ludicrous. One minute Guilliman is getting beaten up by a regular Space Marine, the next thing he kills 20 single handedly and unarmed. One minute he gets beat up by Lorgar, the next he holds his own against both Lorgar and Angron at the same time.
One minute Curze is kicking the Lions ass, the next the Lion is beating him up, the next he is happily fighting almost everyone all at once.
The point was that the fluff has become silly because there are too many books, too many angles, and too many writers, but if the whole thing was actually grounded in reality, Guilliman would be far and away the most useful soldier. The rest are either deranged, insane, emotionally crippled, or lazy and don't bother do any training or exercise.
Guilliman is the best planner regardintg strategy or tactics Horus the Lion The Khan match or surpass him
Regarding siege skills Perturabo and Dorn vastly surpass him
Regarding close combat skills Russ Angron Sanguinus Horus the khan Fulgrim vastly surpass him.
Woah thats awesome I have never read that. Even if he is exaggerating, he gets up as soon as you kill him, I don't see how anyone else could win anyway!"
Just use psychics to teleport him into a sun or a black hole. he can get up after each death for eternity and never be able to leave or retaliate. if magnus is still around when the star dies, Just switch him to a different one. magnus is easily aware of what eternals are and will know to do this. But again, he too is holding back and we have more than his words to go on there.
Ok I'm starting to see this get off topic a bit, let me specify some things.
Yes this scenario is a duel. Not a contest of who is the better soldier, or leader, or who has a better legion. Just a duel, mono a mono. As stated it seems one day a primarch is much stronger than another but the next day its reversed, so i'm trying to sort out their power levels with this thread. Yes I'm saying Horus was the strongest because in this imaginary duel, each primarch is at their strongest. Horus's strongest was when he was juiced up on chaos and killed Sangy and nearly the Big E.
I think its safe to say that the contest is now between: Vulkan Sanguinius Magnus
I think something we need to decide is if Vulkan's Unsurpassed Endurance means anything in this duel or not
81Northman wrote: All I'm hearing here is Magnus and his hex ways pew pew...right here we go...Russ kicked Magnus arse all over so that settles that
Magus was simultaneously whooping the ass of Russ, both his Wolves, and the entire remaining Space Wolf Legion and their mutant hordes. Then, Russ, reeling in pain, lashes out BLINDLY and just happens to strike Magnus' eye in the moment it was vulnerable, all while Tzeench looked on from the Warp/sky. Right, that settles that indeed.
changerofways wrote: Ok I'm starting to see this get off topic a bit, let me specify some things.
Yes this scenario is a duel. Not a contest of who is the better soldier, or leader, or who has a better legion. Just a duel, mono a mono. As stated it seems one day a primarch is much stronger than another but the next day its reversed, so i'm trying to sort out their power levels with this thread.
Yes I'm saying Horus was the strongest because in this imaginary duel, each primarch is at their strongest. Horus's strongest was when he was juiced up on chaos and killed Sangy and nearly the Big E.
I think its safe to say that the contest is now between:
Vulkan
Sanguinius
Magnus
I think something we need to decide is if Vulkan's Unsurpassed Endurance means anything in this duel or not
Even so under those specific circumstances, Magnus has them all beat (beat as in has the ability to totally beat down) both of the others plus horus. Possibly, 2 or 3 at a time so long as he is able to use his psychic powers which the criteria allows.
changerofways wrote: Ok I'm starting to see this get off topic a bit, let me specify some things.
Yes this scenario is a duel. Not a contest of who is the better soldier, or leader, or who has a better legion. Just a duel, mono a mono. As stated it seems one day a primarch is much stronger than another but the next day its reversed, so i'm trying to sort out their power levels with this thread. Yes I'm saying Horus was the strongest because in this imaginary duel, each primarch is at their strongest. Horus's strongest was when he was juiced up on chaos and killed Sangy and nearly the Big E.
I think its safe to say that the contest is now between: Vulkan Sanguinius Magnus
I think something we need to decide is if Vulkan's Unsurpassed Endurance means anything in this duel or not
Even so under those specific circumstances, Magnus has them all beat (beat as in has the ability to totally beat down) both of the others plus horus. Possibly, 2 or 3 at a time so long as he is able to use his psychic powers which the criteria allows.
Interesting...
Before I leave this thread to itself, Could someone provide me with some examples of Sanguiniuses power? I've read through his lex page but all I can really find is him killing a greater daemon of Khorne.
Not necessarily, but what reason had he to lie to Magnus? He was talking gak about him, not stroking his ego. Lucius also supports Magnus' claim as number one, as do Magnus' own feats of raw power. Like beating the gak out of Russ and his entire Legion. People like to conveniently forget that Magnus' attention wasn't centered on Russ, he was also attacking his Legion.
Agreed Amoras, though even without that Magnus could continuously kill Vulkan far better than my favorite Night Haunter. Basically Magnus could just endlessly mess him up with his mastery of the warp or veil etc... Vulkan might not be able to die in the traditional sense. But he can be forced out or temporarily killed, well forever.
Not necessarily, but what reason had he to lie to Magnus? He was talking gak about him, not stroking his ego. Lucius also supports Magnus' claim as number one, as do Magnus' own feats of raw power. Like beating the gak out of Russ and his entire Legion.
I don’t know if Lorgar had any specific reason to lie to Magnus. Though what I do know is that, in the past Lorgar always had something of a girl-crush on Magnus and despite Lorgar coming a long way from his days of being an immature boy, Lorgar continues to view the world and the people around him through rose-tinted glasses. Just take a look at how wrongly Lorgar misinterpreted Guilliman’s true feelings for him (no not those kinds of feelings!)
Anyway, I have to disagree with your statement that Magnus did not “fully commit” to the fight. My interpretation of the book A Thousand Sons leaves no doubt in my mind that, Magnus was in fact, fully 100% committed to win over Russ.
Void__Dragon wrote: People like to conveniently forget that Magnus' attention wasn't centered on Russ, he was also attacking his Legion.
People also like to conveniently forget that a couple of really diehard space wolfs managed to give Magnus a good beating in the Battle for the Fang. What is even more impressive is that they managed to do so without any backup from a Primarch or Blanks. Magnus is strong and has the potential to be the strongest, but he is not worthy of the title of the strongest Primarch, that spot is already taken by Horus.
so far (I havnt read all of the books yet) as i have seen, sanguinus has been shown to be a billy bad butt in close combat with some psyckic powers I think most of we have seen is character building and build up of the flaw. Although previously, I had thought the black rage was a result of the manner of his death.
I'm not so sure aboutangron. I'n terms actual personal fighting skill, I would say it is a matter of styles. It is mention in several places where it is considered that others could beat him. In terms of his berserk rage, I feel that he might be able to fight on despite a mortal wound (even for a primarch) and possibly kill his opponant (in a battle relying purely on physical skill. But if both opponants die, there is no winner and that would not invloved psychic strenght, toughness or shields or healing along with attacks that magnus could do.
Yes, magnus did not really commit to the battle for his home planet at all. He left his legion to do the fighting where they were just overwhelmed by numbers. He kinda stepped in at the last minute and said "oh crap, Too late to end it now without all of my legion dying round me. Better to retreat and let them rebuild their strength."
magnus is not stupid. When in the bastion of tyour brother, it is not wise to emasculate the brother or his chosen sons. especially when you need a favor.
Alpharious. LOL, he is the weak sister of the bunch that even lorgor can kick about with impunity. He could kick about BOTH of the bobsy twins together without breaking a sweat.
EVIL INC wrote: so far (I havnt read all of the books yet) as i have seen, sanguinus has been shown to be a billy bad butt in close combat with some psyckic powers I think most of we have seen is character building and build up of the flaw. Although previously, I had thought the black rage was a result of the manner of his death.
I'm not so sure aboutangron. I'n terms actual personal fighting skill, I would say it is a matter of styles. It is mention in several places where it is considered that others could beat him. In terms of his berserk rage, I feel that he might be able to fight on despite a mortal wound (even for a primarch) and possibly kill his opponant (in a battle relying purely on physical skill. But if both opponants die, there is no winner and that would not invloved psychic strenght, toughness or shields or healing along with attacks that magnus could do.
Yes, magnus did not really commit to the battle for his home planet at all. He left his legion to do the fighting where they were just overwhelmed by numbers. He kinda stepped in at the last minute and said "oh crap, Too late to end it now without all of my legion dying round me. Better to retreat and let them rebuild their strength."
magnus is not stupid. When in the bastion of tyour brother, it is not wise to emasculate the brother or his chosen sons. especially when you need a favor.
Alpharious. LOL, he is the weak sister of the bunch that even lorgor can kick about with impunity. He could kick about BOTH of the bobsy twins together without breaking a sweat.
Not necessarily, but what reason had he to lie to Magnus? He was talking gak about him, not stroking his ego. Lucius also supports Magnus' claim as number one, as do Magnus' own feats of raw power. Like beating the gak out of Russ and his entire Legion.
I don’t know if Lorgar had any specific reason to lie to Magnus. Though what I do know is that, in the past Lorgar always had something of a girl-crush on Magnus and despite Lorgar coming a long way from his days of being an immature boy, Lorgar continues to view the world and the people around him through rose-tinted glasses. Just take a look at how wrongly Lorgar misinterpreted Guilliman’s true feelings for him (no not those kinds of feelings!)
Anyway, I have to disagree with your statement that Magnus did not “fully commit” to the fight. My interpretation of the book A Thousand Sons leaves no doubt in my mind that, Magnus was in fact, fully 100% committed to win over Russ.
Void__Dragon wrote: People like to conveniently forget that Magnus' attention wasn't centered on Russ, he was also attacking his Legion.
People also like to conveniently forget that a couple of really diehard space wolfs managed to give Magnus a good beating in the Battle for the Fang. What is even more impressive is that they managed to do so without any backup from a Primarch or Blanks. Magnus is strong and has the potential to be the strongest, but he is not worthy of the title of the strongest Primarch, that spot is already taken by Horus.
And in many books marines mow down chaos marines, IG mow over guardsman, marines wade into 1000000 cultist and 5 plague marines as a unit of 5 and kill all the cultists and marines whilst the guardsman and SoB manage to only kill dozens before being overrun. And isn't that the book where almost the entire TS assault a skeleton crew and lose? Also doesn't Markus walk around, slaughters wolves without a sweat, talks of how great wolves are, forgets he is a daemon PRI March, etc. Also might I remind you this is 40k where a daemon primarch of Nurgle gets slapped to the floor and then a name carved in before he runs around in the warp carving things in?
Not necessarily, but what reason had he to lie to Magnus? He was talking gak about him, not stroking his ego. Lucius also supports Magnus' claim as number one, as do Magnus' own feats of raw power. Like beating the gak out of Russ and his entire Legion.
I don’t know if Lorgar had any specific reason to lie to Magnus. Though what I do know is that, in the past Lorgar always had something of a girl-crush on Magnus and despite Lorgar coming a long way from his days of being an immature boy, Lorgar continues to view the world and the people around him through rose-tinted glasses. Just take a look at how wrongly Lorgar misinterpreted Guilliman’s true feelings for him (no not those kinds of feelings!)
Anyway, I have to disagree with your statement that Magnus did not “fully commit” to the fight. My interpretation of the book A Thousand Sons leaves no doubt in my mind that, Magnus was in fact, fully 100% committed to win over Russ.
In the conversation you yourself brought up, Lorgar berates Magnus for "straddling the fence" during the whole Prospero enterprise, which based on Magnus' reaction hits pretty close to home. But yeah, I think he was trying pretty hard to kill them all until Tzeench interfered (after all, it wouldn't do for the pawn to extricate himself out of trouble without asking Tzeench for help, that won't do at all).
People also like to conveniently forget that a couple of really diehard space wolfs managed to give Magnus a good beating in the Battle for the Fang. What is even more impressive is that they managed to do so without any backup from a Primarch or Blanks. Magnus is strong and has the potential to be the strongest, but he is not worthy of the title of the strongest Primarch, that spot is already taken by Horus.
That book is stupid and it was an ethereal form gained from possessing a Sorcerer, which kept constantly fading, and the narrative itself actually has Magnus forgetting he is a Primarch.
I don’t know if Lorgar had any specific reason to lie to Magnus. Though what I do know is that, in the past Lorgar always had something of a girl-crush on Magnus and despite Lorgar coming a long way from his days of being an immature boy, Lorgar continues to view the world and the people around him through rose-tinted glasses. Just take a look at how wrongly Lorgar misinterpreted Guilliman’s true feelings for him (no not those kinds of feelings!)
Lorgar's viewpoints can change. Indeed, he was wrong about Guilliman, and he realizes that, just like how he no longer idolizes Magnus as he used to. Now he regularly condescends to him and insults him, despite admitting that Magnus is by far the more powerful of the two. And he is, even from the other side of the galaxy.
Anyway, I have to disagree with your statement that Magnus did not “fully commit” to the fight. My interpretation of the book A Thousand Sons leaves no doubt in my mind that, Magnus was in fact, fully 100% committed to win over Russ.
Even if you are of the mind that Magnus was mentally fully committed to fighting Russ, fact of the matter is that he was fighting him, while also fighting the Space Wolves and Custodians surrounding him, while also fighting Leman Russ' wolf companions, while also tearing apart the surface of Prospero, while also preparing a spell to teleport his sons across the galaxy to safety. His power was not fully devoted to Russ, and that is unarguable. This is ignoring the fact that Russ, apparently uniquely among the Primarchs, is very well-equipped to deal with psykers, due to honing his own powers toward redirecting them, and his armour being enchanted to do so.
Oh, and Magnus still had the upper hand for the majority of the fight. Russ' only real contribution was breaking Magnus' arm and cutting through the horn on Magnus' breastplate. Magnus destroyed Russ' armour, punched a hole in one of his hearts, ran him through with a telekinetic blade, and scalded him with psyflame, blinding and burning him. This is what incited the "lashing out" that managed to nick Magnus' eye.
People also like to conveniently forget that a couple of really diehard space wolfs managed to give Magnus a good beating in the Battle for the Fang. What is even more impressive is that they managed to do so without any backup from a Primarch or Blanks. Magnus is strong and has the potential to be the strongest, but he is not worthy of the title of the strongest Primarch, that spot is already taken by Horus.
A couple?
They were a Wolf Lord, his Wolf Guard, and the most powerful Rune Priest at the time, along with Bjorn the Fell-handed and the current Great Wolf.
All of course is ignoring that when Magnus, and I quote, "remembered that he was a Primarch", he easily killed or seriously wounded (In the case of Bjorn) all of them. Before that fight, he waded through the Space Wolves, not even using his sorcery for the most part. The scene was terrible. Oh, and Magnus' power had been slowly draining since the moment he was summoned.
Horus? Pft. Frickin' Lorgar could telepathically command that feeb with a glance. Magnus is more powerful than Lorgar from the other side of the galaxy.
I don't know why saying Magnus is the most powerful is such a controversial answer. All of the Primarchs are vastly skilled and powerful superhuman warriors, to varying extents. In fact, Magnus is cited as the largest, and one of the strongest, so he is hardly a feeb in hand to hand. but only Magnus (And later maybe Lorgar) is an incredibly powerful alpha plus psyker short of only his father.
At the strongest point in their lives only Horus can win. Possibly Lorgar and definitely could possibly be a threat, with their Alpha+ and Alpha+++ status respectively. But as they draw power from the Warp, under the control of the Gods, and Horus at his strongest part was basically possessed by them all, Horus is gonna kick their asses round the galaxy and back again for a warmup.
despite admitting that Magnus is by far the more powerful of the two. And he is, even from the other side of the galaxy.
This really only matter if you buy into the whole “speaking through warp projection diminishes your power considerably” thing, which I don’t buy into, lmao.
Void__Dragon wrote: Even if you are of the mind that Magnus was mentally fully committed to fighting Russ, fact of the matter is that he was fighting him, while also fighting the Space Wolves and Custodians surrounding him, while also fighting Leman Russ' wolf companions, while also tearing apart the surface of Prospero, while also preparing a spell to teleport his sons across the galaxy to safety. His power was not fully devoted to Russ, and that is unarguable. This is ignoring the fact that Russ, apparently uniquely among the Primarchs, is very well-equipped to deal with psykers, due to honing his own powers toward redirecting them, and his armour being enchanted to do so.
The important thing to note about Magnus combat powers is that his ability to cast spells isn’t infinite, nor is it without its risks. In Thousand Sons we saw him attempting to one-shot an ancient Eldar Titan. His attempt was successful, but the strain from preforming the spell left him completely knocked-out cold and wide open to the second Eldar titan’s attack. Magnus only survived the whole ordeal because one of his captains managed to save him in the last second.
Now we have two cases in the same book, where the fluff contradicts each other on the nature of Magnus abilities. My example puts a limit on how much Magnus can utilise his abilities before running dry on psyker juice. Your example on the other hand puts all such limitations on Magnus abilities to the wind.
Considering the fact that all other examples in the fluff portrays Magnus strength and weakness in the same light as my own example, I think it’s safe to conclude that the power-level of a more consistent written Magnus, is probably somewhere along of the lines of what we have seen in the beginning of A Thousand Sons and the Battle for the Fang books.
Void__Dragon wrote: Oh, and Magnus still had the upper hand for the majority of the fight. Russ' only real contribution was breaking Magnus' arm and cutting through the horn on Magnus' breastplate. Magnus destroyed Russ' armour, punched a hole in one of his hearts, ran him through with a telekinetic blade, and scalded him with psyflame, blinding and burning him. This is what incited the "lashing out" that managed to nick Magnus' eye.
This basically just confirms to us that, Magnus pretty much lost the battle because he didn’t choose to use the right psychic discipline. Everyone knows Divination is rad and Pyromancy is total *censored*.
They were a Wolf Lord, his Wolf Guard, and the most powerful Rune Priest at the time, along with Bjorn the Fell-handed and the current Great Wolf.
All of course is ignoring that when Magnus, and I quote, "remembered that he was a Primarch", he easily killed or seriously wounded (In the case of Bjorn) all of them. Before that fight, he waded through the Space Wolves, not even using his sorcery for the most part. The scene was terrible. Oh, and Magnus' power had been slowly draining since the moment he was summoned.
Yeah I freely admit that refereeing to them as “a couple of wolves,” is a somewhat misleading description, especially considering some of those SW were old war heroes. But to be honest, did it really matter how I described them? A hundred space wolf defenders is just water under the bridge anyway compared to the threat Magnus faced upon Prospero.
Void__Dragon wrote: Horus? Pft. Frickin' Lorgar could telepathically command that feeb with a glance. Magnus is more powerful than Lorgar from the other side of the galaxy.
I don't know why saying Magnus is the most powerful is such a controversial answer. All of the Primarchs are vastly skilled and powerful superhuman warriors, to varying extents. In fact, Magnus is cited as the largest, and one of the strongest, so he is hardly a feeb in hand to hand. but only Magnus (And later maybe Lorgar) is an incredibly powerful alpha plus psyker short of only his father.
Only Horus backed by Chaos is more powerful.
Horus has always been described in the fluff as being the best and brightest amongst his brothers, and JSYK, this also includes the pre-corrupted Horus. I admit that this is a statement open for all kinds of different interpretations, but it is also statement that can be found in all corners of the fluff. From the Black Legion background material, to the Horus Heresy: Collective Visions, to the Horus Heresy series, all of those sources name Horus as the greatest and mightiest of all the Primarchs.
Pretty much every HH era book you read talk about the fall of horus resulting in humanity losing its brightest son, best and brightest etc, so in my opinion its unequivocal that Horus is the strongest in terms of being a military genius and in a one on one primarch off. The two that are written to nearly match him are Angron and Sanguinius. Magnus' psychic abilities does not guarantee him anything in a fight against superhumans. Sure in the oldest fluff the emperor himself was being choked to death by an orc before horus saved him. If an ork can overcome the Emperors psychic strength to best him in cmobat I dont believe its beyond the realms of possibility (taking into account this is a fictional universe of course ) that primarchs would have some way of dealing with magnus
“Of all of us, father made me the strongest. Physically, I have no equal amongst my siblings. In the sparring cages I used to hold back… especially against you, Konrad.”
Excerpt From: Kyme, Nick. “Vulkan Lives.” Black Library, 2013-07. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Vulkan FTW.
Does that mean that Vulkan could have beaten someone like Angron, who in my opinion was nigh on unstoppable in combat?
Void__Dragon wrote: Lorgar's viewpoints can change. Indeed, he was wrong about Guilliman, and he realizes that, just like how he no longer idolizes Magnus as he used to. Now he regularly condescends to him and insults him, despite admitting that Magnus is by far the more powerful of the two. And he is, even from the other side of the galaxy.
You can't blame Lorgar for being upset with his brother. He looked up to him the most, and shared his innermost doubts, particularly about how there is a deeper truth in the universe than just conquest. Magnus actively discouraged him from investigating this feeling, and steered him clear from the Warp, when he knew all along that the "answer" Lorgar was looking for was there. In fact, Magnus is intrinsically tied to one of those powers, something Lorgar was able to instantly see with his new powers over daemons, yet he remains in denial. The powerful and wise brother Lorgar idolized was lying to him AND himself, equivocated until he became nothing more than a shadow and a puppet, and is STILL straddling the fence and just feeling sorry for himself.
The important thing to note about Magnus combat powers is that his ability to cast spells isn’t infinite, nor is it without its risks. In Thousand Sons we saw him attempting to one-shot an ancient Eldar Titan. His attempt was successful, but the strain from preforming the spell left him completely knocked-out cold and wide open to the second Eldar titan’s attack. Magnus only survived the whole ordeal because one of his captains managed to save him in the last second.
You can keep making your little jokes and snarky comments, but it just means you've lost the debate and are trying to save face by acting the clown. But in all your rambling nonsense, you did manage to bring up a good example. Magnus one-shotted an acient uber Eldar Titan. A warhound almost killed Angron and Lorgar both.
Omegus wrote: You can keep making your little jokes and snarky comments, but it just means you've lost the debate and are trying to save face by acting the clown. But in all your rambling nonsense, you did manage to bring up a good example. Magnus one-shotted an acient uber Eldar Titan. A warhound almost killed Angron and Lorgar both.
I honestly don’t even know where to begin with you Omegus. Everything was going just fine with the discussion, until you decided to come barging in here and write this… complete utter garbage.
If you want to have a nice civilized discussion with me, then that’s fine, please feel free to do so.
However, speak to me again in such an insufferable way and I’ll have you put on ignore for good. The choice is yours.
I know I'm late to the party here, but I really don't even see how this is a question. Magnus is clearly the most powerful by a long shot in my eyes. He only "lost" to Russ because he was doing a million other things at the time. Not to mention he was pretty much surrounded by psychic blanks. He could have easily crushed Russ if it were a 1 on 1 fight.
I'm going to go with the Primarchs of the 2nd and/or 11th Legions. They either:
1) Did something SO fething bad that they got themselves scrubbed from history altogether (something not even Horus & co. merited), or;
2) Did/are up to something so cool that it needs to be kept secret from the entire Imperium.
Not knowing much about either of 'em does make it hard to compare them to any of the known primarchs, but the fact that they've been removed from all records does imply a certain level of power (one way or the other) & makes them worth keeping an eye on.
I get the feeling that GW were originally keeping them in reserve for their own or fan-based story-telling purposes. If they ever had a plan for one/both being revealed, its a shame that it seems it'll never see the light of day.
Wyzilla wrote: Horus isn't even close to the strongest Primarch. He was the Emperor's favorite, but only gained strength after being made the partial avatar of all four gods of Chaos. Even then, Magnus would probably walk all over him.
This is so wrong it's funny...
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Ceann Fine wrote: Pretty much every HH era book you read talk about the fall of horus resulting in humanity losing its brightest son, best and brightest etc, so in my opinion its unequivocal that Horus is the strongest in terms of being a military genius and in a one on one primarch off. The two that are written to nearly match him are Angron and Sanguinius. Magnus' psychic abilities does not guarantee him anything in a fight against superhumans. Sure in the oldest fluff the emperor himself was being choked to death by an orc before horus saved him. If an ork can overcome the Emperors psychic strength to best him in cmobat I dont believe its beyond the realms of possibility (taking into account this is a fictional universe of course ) that primarchs would have some way of dealing with magnus
This pretty much echoes exactly what I think.
Void Dragon, we all know that Magnus is extremely powerful and obviously a contender for the top spot but the amount of citations about his strength pale compared to the number of times Horus is cited as the most powerful. Magnus has moments where his immense power is showcased but many of these occasions are open to interpretation. Horus is most definitely the most powerful
Wyzilla wrote: Horus isn't even close to the strongest Primarch. He was the Emperor's favorite, but only gained strength after being made the partial avatar of all four gods of Chaos. Even then, Magnus would probably walk all over him.
This is so wrong it's funny...
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Ceann Fine wrote: Pretty much every HH era book you read talk about the fall of horus resulting in humanity losing its brightest son, best and brightest etc, so in my opinion its unequivocal that Horus is the strongest in terms of being a military genius and in a one on one primarch off. The two that are written to nearly match him are Angron and Sanguinius. Magnus' psychic abilities does not guarantee him anything in a fight against superhumans. Sure in the oldest fluff the emperor himself was being choked to death by an orc before horus saved him. If an ork can overcome the Emperors psychic strength to best him in cmobat I dont believe its beyond the realms of possibility (taking into account this is a fictional universe of course ) that primarchs would have some way of dealing with magnus
This pretty much echoes exactly what I think.
Void Dragon, we all know that Magnus is extremely powerful and obviously a contender for the top spot but the amount of citations about his strength pale compared to the number of times Horus is cited as the most powerful. Magnus has moments where his immense power is showcased but many of these occasions are open to interpretation. Horus is most definitely the most powerful
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I second the notion that Horus was the man. Totally not biased here .
Anyway, I think that Magnus is a strong contender for the 2nd place.
This really only matter if you buy into the whole “speaking through warp projection diminishes your power considerably” thing, which I don’t buy into, lmao.
I don't care what you buy into, to be perfectly honest. If you wish to be wrong, that is entirely your own prerogative, but Aurelian makes it clear that it requires a considerable amount of power to maintain his projection from the other side of the galaxy.
The important thing to note about Magnus combat powers is that his ability to cast spells isn’t infinite, nor is it without its risks. In Thousand Sons we saw him attempting to one-shot an ancient Eldar Titan. His attempt was successful, but the strain from preforming the spell left him completely knocked-out cold and wide open to the second Eldar titan’s attack. Magnus only survived the whole ordeal because one of his captains managed to save him in the last second.
Now we have two cases in the same book, where the fluff contradicts each other on the nature of Magnus abilities. My example puts a limit on how much Magnus can utilise his abilities before running dry on psyker juice. Your example on the other hand puts all such limitations on Magnus abilities to the wind.
Considering the fact that all other examples in the fluff portrays Magnus strength and weakness in the same light as my own example, I think it’s safe to conclude that the power-level of a more consistent written Magnus, is probably somewhere along of the lines of what we have seen in the beginning of A Thousand Sons and the Battle for the Fang books.
So you are of the mind that Magnus fighting two (and destroying one) Eldar Titans that each dwarf a Warhound is the equivalent to being beaten up by a Dreadnought and some Space Wolves?
How... Telling. I'll also note that Magnus was not so drained that he couldn't go into the Warp immediately afterwards and destroy the plague that had corrupted that world.
This basically just confirms to us that, Magnus pretty much lost the battle because he didn’t choose to use the right psychic discipline. Everyone knows Divination is rad and Pyromancy is total *censored*.
So do you have an actual rebuttal, or just a joke?
Yeah I freely admit that refereeing to them as “a couple of wolves,” is a somewhat misleading description, especially considering some of those SW were old war heroes. But to be honest, did it really matter how I described them? A hundred space wolf defenders is just water under the bridge anyway compared to the threat Magnus faced upon Prospero.
Which is partly why it is bad writing. The other part is how the story had Magnus easily kill them all when he remembered he was a Primarch, lol, what a crock of gak.
Horus has always been described in the fluff as being the best and brightest amongst his brothers, and JSYK, this also includes the pre-corrupted Horus. I admit that this is a statement open for all kinds of different interpretations, but it is also statement that can be found in all corners of the fluff. From the Black Legion background material, to the Horus Heresy: Collective Visions, to the Horus Heresy series, all of those sources name Horus as the greatest and mightiest of all the Primarchs.
Horus was among the best... Overall. I'd even say that he probably is one of the best duelists.
But in terms of sheer power? No. Both Lorgar and especially Magnus are demonstrably more powerful. Even Horus knows it. You can't really get around the whole "was made into a nancy bitch telepathically by Lorgar" part, either.
I honestly don’t even know where to begin with you Omegus. Everything was going just fine with the discussion, until you decided to come barging in here and write this… complete utter garbage.
If you want to have a nice civilized discussion with me, then that’s fine, please feel free to do so.
However, speak to me again in such an insufferable way and I’ll have you put on ignore for good. The choice is yours.
His point is valid.
Magnus destroys Emperors, Lorgar and Angron have trouble with Warhounds.
Void Dragon, we all know that Magnus is extremely powerful and obviously a contender for the top spot but the amount of citations about his strength pale compared to the number of times Horus is cited as the most powerful. Magnus has moments where his immense power is showcased but many of these occasions are open to interpretation. Horus is most definitely the most powerful.
Horus was casually dominated by the mental prowess of Lorgar.
Show me those statements that claim Horus is the most powerful. At best you can get me some quotes citing his skill as a warrior.
You honestly need sources that say Horus is the greatest among the primarchs? Read any HH book that features him maybe. I'm not citing every source that says this.
Maybe if you we're not so set on Magnus being the most powerful then you would notice the validity of others arguments. Anyway I'm leaving this argument, they always devolve into the same debate which ends up as a battle of conflicting opinions.
GoingtoHell wrote: You honestly need sources that say Horus is the greatest among the primarchs? Read any HH book that features him maybe. I'm not citing every source that says this.
Maybe if you we're not so set on Magnus being the most powerful then you would notice the validity of others arguments. Anyway I'm leaving this argument, they always devolve into the same debate which ends up as a battle of conflicting opinions.
GoingtoHell wrote: You honestly need sources that say Horus is the greatest among the primarchs? Read any HH book that features him maybe. I'm not citing every source that says this.
Maybe if you we're not so set on Magnus being the most powerful then you would notice the validity of others arguments. Anyway I'm leaving this argument, they always devolve into the same debate which ends up as a battle of conflicting opinions.
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Why do people on this site get so upset when someone asks them to prove something they claimed?
GoingtoHell wrote: You honestly need sources that say Horus is the greatest among the primarchs? Read any HH book that features him maybe. I'm not citing every source that says this.
Maybe if you we're not so set on Magnus being the most powerful then you would notice the validity of others arguments. Anyway I'm leaving this argument, they always devolve into the same debate which ends up as a battle of conflicting opinions.
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Why do people on this site get so upset when someone asks them to prove something they claimed?
Firstly explain to me how I'm getting upset. Secondly it's because it takes a lot of effort and I can't be bothered.
I don't care what you buy into, to be perfectly honest. If you wish to be wrong, that is entirely your own prerogative, but Aurelian makes it clear that it requires a considerable amount of power to maintain his projection from the other side of the galaxy.
I don’t want to be wrong lol. I just haven’t had the opportunity to read Aurelian yet, so thank you for enlighten me on the subject of warp projections.
Void__Dragon wrote: So you are of the mind that Magnus fighting two (and destroying one) Eldar Titans that each dwarf a Warhound is the equivalent to being beaten up by a Dreadnought and some Space Wolves?
No.
Void__Dragon wrote: How... Telling. I'll also note that Magnus was not so drained that he couldn't go into the Warp immediately afterwards and destroy the plague that had corrupted that world.
He was incapable of shielding himself from the second blast. Even a single moment of hesitation like that can mean death on the battlefield.
Void__Dragon wrote: Which is partly why it is bad writing. The other part is how the story had Magnus easily kill them all when he remembered he was a Primarch, lol, what a crock of gak.
Whatever you think the book is badly written or not is irrelevant. It is just as a valid source as any other HH book out there, so deal with it.
Void__Dragon wrote: Horus was among the best... Overall. I'd even say that he probably is one of the best duelists.
Horus was the best Primarch and here is why:
Black Legion IA: "Horus, first and greatest of all the Primarchs."
The Lightning Tower: "Dorn knew that Horus was the greatest of them, which made him the gravest foe. Could any one of them hope to best Lupercal on the field of war?"
Codex: Space Wolves: "Horus was the most powerful of all the Primarchs."
A Thousand Sons: "Like squabbling brothers, each of the Primarchs vied for a place at their father's side, but only one was ever good enough to fight alongside the saviour of humanity: Horus."
Void__Dragon wrote: But in terms of sheer power? No. Both Lorgar and especially Magnus are demonstrably more powerful.
Magnus probably possess the most destructive potential of all the Primarchs, but that hardly seems to matter in a Primarch duel, or at least when you are fighting Russ that is.
Void__Dragon wrote: You can't really get around the whole "was made into a nancy bitch telepathically by Lorgar" part, either.
This seems much exaggerated. Do you have a source and a quote for that?
No his comment was pure hyperbole and childish insults.
Void__Dragon wrote: Magnus destroys Emperors, Lorgar and Angron have trouble with Warhounds.
Your argument lacks context. First off, those two Primarchs never actually fought against the titan to begin with. Lorgar’s back was turned to the titan when it shot at him, and Angron only prevented it from squashing his brother under its foot.
It also isn’t fair comparison when you consider the state Angron was in after being buried fifty feet under a pile of rubble, while Magnus on the other hand was in a perfect condition and had the support of numerous TS and SW when he faced off against his titan opponent.
Also, are titan killing powers the only way for you to measure who of the Primarchs are the most powerful? If so, then you should probably put possessed Fulgrim above Magnus, considering how he in Reflection Cracked took down a titan without even breaking a sweat.
Omegus wrote: You can keep making your little jokes and snarky comments, but it just means you've lost the debate and are trying to save face by acting the clown. But in all your rambling nonsense, you did manage to bring up a good example. Magnus one-shotted an acient uber Eldar Titan. A warhound almost killed Angron and Lorgar both.
I honestly don’t even know where to begin with you Omegus. Everything was going just fine with the discussion, until you decided to come barging in here and write this… complete utter garbage.
If you want to have a nice civilized discussion with me, then that’s fine, please feel free to do so.
However, speak to me again in such an insufferable way and I’ll have you put on ignore for good. The choice is yours.
Lol, and here comes the fake outrage, the next bastion of someone who's cornered. I really could not care less if you ignore me, as VoidDragon said, it's your prerogative to remain ignorant. You even admit later that all you have for "arguments" is silly jokes. /shrug
Especially since you haven't read most of the source material (Lorgar pushed Horus and Fulgrim around in Aurellian), or have your own wacky recollection of events (Lorgar actively faced thr Warhound and tried to tank its blasts, but the second shot shattered his kine shield and melted half his face off.
Omegus wrote: You can keep making your little jokes and snarky comments, but it just means you've lost the debate and are trying to save face by acting the clown. But in all your rambling nonsense, you did manage to bring up a good example. Magnus one-shotted an acient uber Eldar Titan. A warhound almost killed Angron and Lorgar both.
I honestly don’t even know where to begin with you Omegus. Everything was going just fine with the discussion, until you decided to come barging in here and write this… complete utter garbage.
If you want to have a nice civilized discussion with me, then that’s fine, please feel free to do so.
However, speak to me again in such an insufferable way and I’ll have you put on ignore for good. The choice is yours.
Lol, and here comes the fake outrage, the next bastion of someone who's cornered. I really could not care less if you ignore me, as VoidDragon said, it's your prerogative to remain ignorant. You even admit later that all you have for "arguments" is silly jokes. /shrug
Especially since you haven't read most of the source material (Lorgar pushed Horus and Fulgrim around in Aurellian), or have your own wacky recollection of events (Lorgar actively faced thr Warhound and tried to tank its blasts, but the second shot shattered his kine shield and melted half his face off.
Lorgar didn't really push them around though did he? He got Horus to take his hand of his armour and attacked Fulgrom who did not fight back. Wow...
changerofways wrote: So i've seen an older thread on this but it was mostly a disorganized mess of angry people.
If the primarchs were to fight each other one on one, at full strength, who would be the strongest duelist?
obviously primarchs like the alpha legions' would not do well here because their strengths are other places than fighting, like tactics, but this is all about physical and magical strength and endurance.
Who is the king?
This will happen again. Just warning you.
Just wanted to throw this in there. Prescience.
There's just an overall problem with this word/comparison, and so many others of these types. "Powerful". That means different things to different people. When Dorn says it, he could be referring to martial ability as well as overall influence/"get s*** done". When I read VD's comments, I read "sheer ability to unleash vast energy/control".
This stuff is subjective, through someone's lens. Take it easy folks. You could argue powerful in terms of single combat and call Fulgrim numero uno by sheer primarch body count.
I voted Magnus anyway, but on the opposite side of the "Magnus mind > matter", it has to be telling that all the primarchs always mention Horus in there "this dude's a problem" short list. He wasn't all hype.
Also, Horus isn't impressive in the least. He was the Emperor's favorite, but this doesn't make him the strongest. His life was threatened by the Interex.
godking wrote: Angron and Sanguinus are the only two primarchs who everybody agrees could have taken Horus in a duel.
Magnus psyker abiliteis vastly outstrip those of Horus though.
is their a consensus that if the Heresy never happened....would Magnus of surpassed the Emperor in psychic ability.. if he didn't let Horus get to him.....
i always find it odd, that the Emperor's favorite was Horus, but he wanted Magnus to sit on the golden throne after him
WTF, no. The throne was constructed for Magnus, Magnus was a psyker, Horus was not, no Primarch can match the Emperor.
As for the whole mess of angry people prediction, so far it's just one guy faking outrage because he got schooled.
GoingtoHell wrote: Lorgar didn't really push them around though did he? He got Horus to take his hand of his armour and attacked Fulgrom who did not fight back. Wow...
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The formerly meekest Primarch mentally dominated the Warmaster in his uber "I ignore all psychic things on a 4+" armor and Horus walked on eggshells around him the rest of the book. The formerly weakest Primarch literally curbstomped one of the premiere warriors among the Primarchs, and had daemon-Fulgrim literally cowering in the corner and begging for mercy.
Of course, I attribute a lot of Lorgar's feats to the additional influence over all things touched by Chaos granted to him by the Gods (and then passed on to the Legion).
godking wrote: Angron and Sanguinus are the only two primarchs who everybody agrees could have taken Horus in a duel.
Magnus psyker abiliteis vastly outstrip those of Horus though.
is their a consensus that if the Heresy never happened....would Magnus of surpassed the Emperor in psychic ability.. if he didn't let Horus get to him.....
i always find it odd, that the Emperor's favorite was Horus, but he wanted Magnus to sit on the golden throne after him
WTF, no. The throne was constructed for Magnus, Magnus was a psyker, Horus was not, no Primarch can match the Emperor.
As for the whole mess of angry people prediction, so far it's just one guy faking outrage because he got schooled.
No Primarch will and ever has matched the Emperor in psychic ability. He is vastly superior in that regard. Physically corrupted Horus may have actually been the stronger however.
I agree, my pet theory is that the death of Oll the Perpetual (Sensei?) gave the Big E the extra bit of push he needed to kill Horus. I don't buy the sentimentality legend, it's out of character for the Emperor and he knew how it would turn out anyway.
I wish there was a way for the OP of a thread to remove the thread. The posts here have been incredibly helpful but all of my questions were answered by page 3, and now, as per everyones predictions, this thread has devolved...
I don’t want to be wrong lol. I just haven’t had the opportunity to read Aurelian yet, so thank you for enlighten me on the subject of warp projections.
Hey man you're welcome.
He was incapable of shielding himself from the second blast. Even a single moment of hesitation like that can mean death on the battlefield.
No Primarch save, well, Magnus pre-Heresy can bring the kind of power that necessitated that much expenditure of might to bear.
Whatever you think the book is badly written or not is irrelevant. It is just as a valid source as any other HH book out there, so deal with it.
It is, and you must deal with the fact that, as per the text, when Magnus actually bothered to use his power, he dominated everyone, both physically and psychically.
Horus was the best Primarch and here is why:
Black Legion IA: "Horus, first and greatest of all the Primarchs."
The Lightning Tower: "Dorn knew that Horus was the greatest of them, which made him the gravest foe. Could any one of them hope to best Lupercal on the field of war?"
Codex: Space Wolves: "Horus was the most powerful of all the Primarchs."
A Thousand Sons: "Like squabbling brothers, each of the Primarchs vied for a place at their father's side, but only one was ever good enough to fight alongside the saviour of humanity: Horus."
All vague statements that may indeed be true in an overall sense. He had a large legion, was a skilled combatant, a very competent commander, as well as a diplomat supreme.
Magnus probably possess the most destructive potential of all the Primarchs, but that hardly seems to matter in a Primarch duel, or at least when you are fighting Russ that is.
I suppose it wouldn't, when he's also fighting his brother's entire Legion and bringing that power to bear on the planet they're fighting on.
This seems much exaggerated. Do you have a source and a quote for that?
It is also from Aurelian. Horus grabs Lorgar by the shoulder, and Lorgar telepathically commands him to release him with a stern glance. Horus, clad in full gear and trying to resist, complies, and is quite shaken up about it.
No his comment was pure hyperbole and childish insults.
Nah.
Your argument lacks context. First off, those two Primarchs never actually fought against the titan to begin with. Lorgar’s back was turned to the titan when it shot at him, and Angron only prevented it from squashing his brother under its foot.
Untrue, Lorgar faced it, extending his hand to defend against it with a kine shield.
And, admittedly, Lorgar did destroy a single Warhound.
It also isn’t fair comparison when you consider the state Angron was in after being buried fifty feet under a pile of rubble, while Magnus on the other hand was in a perfect condition and had the support of numerous TS and SW when he faced off against his titan opponent.
Also, are titan killing powers the only way for you to measure who of the Primarchs are the most powerful? If so, then you should probably put possessed Fulgrim above Magnus, considering how he in Reflection Cracked took down a titan without even breaking a sweat.
Angron and Lorgar also had the support of their allies. It is sort of the only reason they survived.
And no, but that's a pretty good indication.
Lol, Fulgrim? Funnily enough, that act drew an explicit comparison to Magnus from Lucius.
The Titan Fulgrim destroyed was considerably less powerful, though. It also ignores when Magnus did similarly to a massive Gargant, creating a psyflame hurricane that incinerated it.
Void__Dragon wrote: No Primarch save, well, Magnus pre-Heresy can bring the kind of power that necessitated that much expenditure of might to bear.
I’m not sure I’m following you on this one. Are you denying the fact that, Magnus got saved by one of his captains? Or are you arguing that another Primarch won’t have any protection against the spells Magnus wields?
I can provide a source for the former one. If it’s the latter you are meaning then, well, I think that one is debatable too.
Void__Dragon wrote: It is, and you must deal with the fact that, as per the text, when Magnus actually bothered to use his power, he dominated everyone, both physically and psychically.
It goes both ways Void_Dragon.
It’s true that a motivated Magnus can with his powers easily dictate the outcome of a war, perhaps more so than any other Primarch. However, it is also true that when Magnus does not “bother,” as you so imaginatively put it, to give his all in a fight, then he receives a beat-down by a bunch of space wolves. And this humorously enough, makes him the first and only Primarch, (a daemon Primarch no less, tsk tsk) to ever have received a beating from such a lowly opponent in a straight up fight.
So to use you own words. This is a fact, and you must deal with the fact that, as per the text, Magnus has the lowest performance of all the primarchs written about to date, and as such, we can expect Magnus to suck *** just as much as he kicks it.
Void__Dragon wrote: All vague statements that may indeed be true in an overall sense. He had a large legion, was a skilled combatant, a very competent commander, as well as a diplomat supreme.
Well we can agree on these sort of things tend to be a bit muddy with Horus. These numerous sources all agree on Horus being the top dog, yet sadly, none of them gives us any clear reasons as to why he is the top dog. It’s a moronic case of “tell” and not “show”.
I can’t say agree with the thought of Horus only being the number one Primarch because he is so well-rounded in his skills, but I still acknowledge it as a sound argument, given what little we know about Horus so far.
Void__Dragon wrote: I suppose it wouldn't, when he's also fighting his brother's entire Legion and bringing that power to bear on the planet they're fighting on.
Hmm I only remember Magnus killing a few scrubs, who foolishly attempted to close in on him and Russ. It seems to me like you are over exaggerating again. Though admittedly, I may just not recall the battle correctly either.
Anyway, if Magnus could kill Russ the same way he destroyed the Eldar titan, then he would have done so at the beginning of their fight, and not risk the outcome of the war on a multitasking exercise with Russ.
Void__Dragon wrote: It is also from Aurelian. Horus grabs Lorgar by the shoulder, and Lorgar telepathically commands him to release him with a stern glance. Horus, clad in full gear and trying to resist, complies, and is quite shaken up about it.
Sounds like Horus got overconfident and underestimated Lorgar’s growth as a Primarch, good for him.
Lorgar managed to catch Horus with his pants down, and thoroughly embarrass him. Very funny, but no big whoop.
Insults tend not to be very constructive in debates. This shouldn’t come as a surprise to you. Also, this will be the last time we speak of it.
Void__Dragon wrote: Untrue, Lorgar faced it, extending his hand to defend against it with a kine shield.
And it held firm against the first plasma blast, but broke under the second one. Wait a second… I think I get now. This just in guys! Magnus is the unrivalled king of kine shields, and the de facto #1 primarch Wohoo!
With great ease I might add. Again titan smashing prowess is nothing new in the hood. Plenty of Primarchs have done so already, either with the sword or the mind.
Void__Dragon wrote: Angron and Lorgar also had the support of their allies. It is sort of the only reason they survived.
Put a healthy Lorgar without the 3rd degree plasama burns against a titan of any class lower than the Emperor type, and he too would destroy it willy nilly. The same goes for Angron.
