Imperial Guard don't interest me a lot, so I haven't read much about them. But I was curious, why are they so liked? In my opinion, they just appear weak. I mean why not put them in power armour making them 8 feet tall? Is it also the painting/modeling aspect?

I like them for the fluff, they reflect all my fav action and war movies. On the table not so much, but i do have a small detachment to ally with my marines on occasion. People who do well with them utilize a lot of tanks, and unfortunately i think the leman russ is the dumbest looking tank after the german av1 from the first world war. I suggest reading a gaunts ghosts novel and see what you think.

Because they can be whatever i want. And they are normal. I think marines and anything else bar sometimes eldar to be horrifically lame. Imperial guard is the only thing that keeps me playing the game.

I can use any models that are humanoid. The tanks can be whatever i want them to be. I have the freedom to make my list any way possible through all the imperial codices and so on.

Although the power gamers ruin the imperial guard in terms of variety, for fluffy players one army could look completely different to the next down to every little detail.

In short, i can theme it to my tastes (which for me is historical), i have complete freedom to make any human model into a trooper and the huge amounts of potential for conversion and variation over the other armies.

Also they are the most believable in fluff overall.

I agree with Swastkowey. I enjoy the variety I can field at any time. Painting them is fun also. My command squads themes are on the line of Shield and Capt. America. You cant really make that look good with any other armies.

It all comes down with most wargamers being human. Since the Imperial Guard are human, they are easier to relate to and get behind.

B-but Space Marines are more popular than the Guard.

People like them because they're the bog-standard humans. People relate to them.
Also; TANKS!

Because like draw for any of the other armies - not everyone wants to play 8ft tall guys in Power Armor. They are the other human army, which as said before, people can relate too.

The Imperial Guard can be turned into many kinds of personal themes, which other armies/races don't do quite as easily.

It's harder to become a hero if you are a 7 foot armor encased mutant hybrid super soldier programmed for destruction.

Real heroes come from ordinary people just like you and me.

Using that same logic, I could argue that it's harder for Firemen to become heroes because their physical fitness transcends 90% of the human population.

Space Marines can still die. And they're not just expected to, but frequently do, triumph over odds that most lone Guardsmen could never perform, not just due to their fragile human body, but because of their fear.

I mean, Commissars exist for a reason. Not that heroic. Let's not get too high on the IG nob here.

Ollanius Pius, nuff said.

Because Guardsmen are regular dudes that stand tall in a galaxy full of 30ft tall fire-breathing schlong-demons just dying to skullfeth your soul. For eternity.
And they're identifiable.

They are readily the most customizable force available, Being human allows you to relate to them, Underdog status, Heavy metal thunder (TAAAAAAAANKS), Themes of Human courage and of Bone Crushing Grimdark, all of these things appeal to people and are present within the guard without the frills of the superheroic spacemarines or the Unstoppable tyranids, or Unkillable necrons. They are human and thats all they need to be.

pax_imperialis wrote:
I like them for the fluff, they reflect all my fav action and war movies. On the table not so much, but i do have a small detachment to ally with my marines on occasion. People who do well with them utilize a lot of tanks, and unfortunately i think the leman russ is the dumbest looking tank after the german av1 from the first world war. I suggest reading a gaunts ghosts novel and see what you think.

How could this possibly look dumb?



Oh wait...

I can see how they are the most relatable, but I have kind of the opposite feeling when it comes to playing basic humans in scifi games. I feel like if I'm playing a scifi game, I want to play some exotic, cool looking race that's NOT the race I am in real life. To each his own though!

Noctem wrote:
I can see how they are the most relatable, but I have kind of the opposite feeling when it comes to playing basic humans in scifi games. I feel like if I'm playing a scifi game, I want to play some exotic, cool looking race that's NOT the race I am in real life. To each his own though!

I actually really agree with this, which is why I nominated IG as one of the more lame factions in a different thread. They just have nothing that interests me as a faction and zero interest in the ascetics department as a table top army.

However, I can see why they are popular by others.

Because everyone loves an underdog.

Imperial Guard represent the human condition and struggle. Fighting against the supernatural. A supernatural so evil and sinister it could be considered almost incomprehensible. Imperial Guard are the struggle between the average grunt, and the forsaken forces of Chaos or Xenos.

A guardsman can be from a feral, agri, hive, or forge world. He (or she) is an ordinary citizen. Flesh and bone. Its a very base perspective of the 40K universe, subject to all the same horrors, conflict and hardship. Imperial Guard are the story of how you or I, fighting together would stand against all the worst the universe has to offer. It represent the potential for creative expression anywhere of a humanly militarized group fighting against all these powers.

Imperial Guard are the gung-ho of every war movie you've ever seen. The Blackhawk Downs, Saving Private Ryans, all those bottleneck cut throat moments of intensity, every story of the Imperial Guard is fighting those unsurmountable odds made even greater by the nature of the 40K setting. A fight to take a beach head is all the more bitter by the savage Blood Pact defenders reinforced by the sinister nearly omnipotent Black Legion.

IG pit the average joe into the militarized life style, one way or another, fighting against the bitter, cold universe surrounding him. How you fight, and who you fight with, are what makes you, the story, and your efforts all the worthwhile, and the Emperor Protects.

Tanks. Tanks tanks tanks tanks tanks. IG keep calling to me with the siren song of TANKS.

I like them because they encapsulate the nature of what it is to be a human in the 41st Millenium. You don't matter. You and your nine friends barely matter. But your three hundred friends, tanks, and air support matter. The individual exists only to die so that the many can achieve victory. One Guardsman is nothing. One thousand Guardsmen are something.

Tanks. And superheavy tanks.

Edit: and because this is the single most awesome model in all of 40k:

I just like the whole "human" link that they bring to 40k. Its like you can sort of relate to them. Not forgetting they have TANKS! Loads and loads of TANKS!!

I can understand disliking them for both aesthetic and play style reasons. The WWI/Inter-war inspired designs isn't what everyone wants in their SciFi. I, personally, like that aspect. However, what I really like makes this quote seem a bit funny to me:

 Da Ork Killa wrote:
[Snip] In my opinion, they just appear weak. [Snip]

I like them for the raw, blunt strength they can unleash. Individually, guardsmen aren't notable, but a blob of them (especially with FRFSRF) can gut a unit of Space Marines. Their tanks are durable, destructive, and a ton of them fit into the army. A single Battle Cannon/Earthshaker/Demolisher will flatten a squad of marines (and the Demolisher will do so to Terminators, too). When I started playing Marines it felt (and still does, though to a lesser extent) that the much-applauded Space Marines were the weaker force.

Also, the sheer number of options in the book is pretty darn great. I started with IG and that darn book spoiled me rotten with all its options (and how many of them you can cram into a single army!).

Because they are humans. You can easily identify with them.

I like the way GreyHamster put it:

 GreyHamster wrote:
I like them because they encapsulate the nature of what it is to be a human in the 41st Millenium. You don't matter. You and your nine friends barely matter. But your three hundred friends, tanks, and air support matter. The individual exists only to die so that the many can achieve victory. One Guardsman is nothing. One thousand Guardsmen are something.

And don´t forget tanks. Some people like tanks a lot.

I like Guard because nothing is more awesome than jumping out of a V/STOVL, landing on your feet, gunning down the shocked looks on those smug little elf faces and moving onto the next target before those oh-so-superior xeno witches never saw you coming.

Also, because a size ten (I play female drop troopers) boot to the head at maximum survivable velocity is just about the funniest way to kill a Tau I've ever heard of.

 Peregrine wrote:
Tanks. And superheavy tanks.

Edit: and because this is the single most awesome model in all of 40k:

No no, this is the most awesome model in 40k:



OT: Ordinary people beating monsters from space hell.

1) Level of manliness that even Astartes barely reach (they ARE issued with high grade balls of steel)
2) Ollanius Pius
3) They're humans - BADASS humans.
4) IG is still pretty playable, stable, and most of all; a competitive army, with lots of possibilities how to play them.
5) Fields one of the best armoured vehicles in the game that makes even Space Marines jealous (counting out the Land Raiders, of course).
6) Rich fluff, and many regiments to choose your style from. I only hope that GW would update their models on the IG section some day...

 dakkajet wrote:
I just like the whole "human" link that they bring to 40k. Its like you can sort of relate to them. Not forgetting they have THANKS! Loads and loads of THANKS!!

THANKS! Wait,what?Do you dear sir perhaps mean TANKS!?I like TANKS.And because I play orks I can have a green tide(cadian armour/ork skin)And I can steal their TANKs!dey don't need it....(get it?Because their dead?MWAHAHAHAHAHA!)

The sheer, unbridled freedom is what's great about IG. In game, you can run a horde of footsoldiers, an armoured company, an airborne squadron, a highly elite strike force, the sky really is the limit. Model-wise, if it has 4 limbs and can hold a lasgun it's in, so you can use tonnes of non-GW stuff for those of use who hate the look of Cadians (like myself). And having so much variety in the fluff means that you can really make the army your own. At the end of the day, SM are SM. IG can be anything, from a hive militia pressed into service to an elite team of veterans of a hundred battlezones.

i would say its the personality. aside from them being ww2 germans...

its the fact you can literally customize them however you want, infantry, tanks, fliers... pick a theme or a real world army, or even a fictional one, and its done, and looks cool. ive seen in my day:

- an imperial "clone" storm trooper army (even had jedi as seargents/officers)
- a 40k skaven counts as (every model was skaven, and even the tanks were done up. looked awsome.
- a guy i knew served in iraq, and made his platoon. managed to convert uniforms, rank markings, even got some liknesses of his buddies to be his officers (he was a GENIOUS at greenstuff) - havent seen the guy in 12 years or so... but wow.

and many others. IG is all about character. they can be made to be almost anything. - more so then tau, marines, etc. plus many if not all their kits are and have been plastic for a lot longer then most armies, save marines.

Because they're mucho macho.

They are just mere men in war where you see things that are extreme. But still they hold the line. Or dont, but thats part of the spell IG is also great for people loving simple military sci-fi or just military literature and motifs like Glen Cook and his Black Company, Erikson's Bridgeburners/ Bonehunters etc. For me is bucnh of men holding gun in face of terrible horrors simply more alluring than playing for genetically modified kinght orders (but nothing against it, if someone loves SM, just enjoy!).

And from game perspective, IG offers me huge freedom of army composition. Just those snipers and cavalry suck

It's very refreshing to play a human army in 40K without being one of the hordes of Space Marine players. Been there, done that, have three different Space Marine armies to prove it (and a SOB one just to fill out the "Power Armor" lust.). Sometimes it's time for something new, but still relatable.

Mass ranks of soldiers with all their faults.

Guard fluff rocks, can't wait for something like it to breathe new life into the Horus Heresy series.

I'm not keen on massed tank/artillery armies though.

Because people relate to people. Same reason aliens appear humanoid in the vast majority of cases, because it's harder to market 'true' aliens to people (Which is why I personally like Nids so much)

Basically because tanks.

At first I thought the Leman Russ was silly and dumb looking, and it is.

But after understanding WHY it's silly looking, and even better, noticing that it's better than every other main battle tank in the game while looking silly, is awesome.

It's like having a Ford Pinto that can outrun, outgun, and out-endure an M1 Abrams.

I like the fact they are weak, that there is nothing special about them. They are your standard issue grunts in a sea of super powered mutants and aliens. When someone who is raised from a young age to be the greatest fighter known to man given every physical and technological advantage does something brave and heroic its intresting but par for the course. When some guy born a farmer gets handed a Lasgun and a week of training does something heroic its spectacular.

Personally not much of a Tank fan.

You kidding me? Half the reason I play 40K is to AVOID anything to do with humans, aside from perhaps crushing them in the field of battle. It's all about being above, better-than.

Don't get me wrong, I like people. It's humans as a species who irk me. Same thing with fantasy games, anything other than human is a good place to start.

Steel Legion madness.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
B-but Space Marines are more popular than the Guard.

Because they are more interesting. You can get the Imperial Guard feel anywhere.
You come to 40k to hear about battles between millions of superhumans. If you want to see normal people fist fight go play Flames of War.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
B-but Space Marines are more popular than the Guard.

Because they are more interesting. You can get the Imperial Guard feel anywhere.
You come to 40k to hear about battles between millions of superhumans. If you want to see normal people fist fight go play Flames of War.

Ummm space marines are not very interesting. all their gear is largely the same, no variation except the odd robe or icon here and there. Vehicles are even more awful than guard ones. Oh and dont get me started on their midget bolters. Seriously the bodies are hunched over trying to hold a tiny gun like that.

With the guard they can be anything in terms of uniform, weapons, tactics and vehicles.

I mean whats interesting about a giant man, with 2 of every organ for no real reason plus heaps of random organs shoved in there, let alone all the OTHER organs crammed in there, than wrapped in probably multiple copies of muscles, its a wonder they dont have 2 faces! (you know just encase they loose one?). Then you get guys driving tanks in power armour. Flying craft with armour.

They would consume so much food so frequently its just a stupid idea from the get go.

A muddy battlefield would render armies of marines useless. Let a lone cave fighting.

There is nearly nothing they can do tactically except drop in the right place or walk forward hoping the enemy cant shoot very well.

There is nothing cool about GW space marines at all. Dont get me started on chaos marines! They are considerably worse.

If space marines werent so childish in appearance on the table top and in the fluff i might consider them sightly interesting.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
I like them for the fluff, they reflect all my fav action and war movies. On the table not so much, but i do have a small detachment to ally with my marines on occasion. People who do well with them utilize a lot of tanks, and unfortunately i think the leman russ is the dumbest looking tank after the german av1 from the first world war. I suggest reading a gaunts ghosts novel and see what you think.

How could this possibly look dumb?



Oh wait...

aaaah i see you bought the new crassus armoured carrier. Well played sir

CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.Not what you just said.

Because no other faction let me do the ''shatter their skies'' thing better.

Fancy models, too, Forgeworld is awesome.

Oh and house with more barrels pointing out of its windows than there are windows.

 Laughingcarp wrote:
You kidding me? Half the reason I play 40K is to AVOID anything to do with humans, aside from perhaps crushing them in the field of battle. It's all about being above, better-than.

Don't get me wrong, I like people. It's humans as a species who irk me. Same thing with fantasy games, anything other than human is a good place to start.

Meh, non humans always bug me in fantasy and sci-fi. It's not that I don't like aliens (tyranids are loads of fun), but rather that I don't see the point of slapping pointy ears or green paint on people and pretending they are not people any more.

Space Marines are people in good armor. Orks are post apocalyptic hordes in green paint. Eldar are aristocrats in pointy ears. At least Imperial Guard admit they are just a bunch of people. I mean, the difference between me and an Eldar as written is about 500x less than the difference between me and a 15th century farmer in China. Sure, they are fast and uppity and they feel their entirely human emotions "100 times stronger than any human" but in practice they act like humans, and twentieth century western humans to boot.

Honestly, I'd be happier if Orks were Road Warrior style raiders instead of... well, Road Warrior style raiders painted green with a lot of nonsense about fungus thrown in. Eldar are more poignant to me as a superadvanced human society whose fall destroyed their great works, leaving militaristic numbskulls and scavenging hordes to replace their great society... as opposed to exactly the same thing, but with a different genetic background. Space marines are already just GMO humans. Tau are just an upstart bunch of humans playing at science and socialism.

I mean, all these groups are humans. They represent human archetypes, they act like humans, they have human motivations and emotions and behavior and are designed to appeal to our human drives. The only non-human faction in the game is Tyranids... Necrons to some extent, but really they just act like humans stuck in cyber-bodies these days.

I feel like I can reply to several of the questions raised by people above,
Even when I first got into 40k, not long after 2nd ed came out, the Imperial Guard intrigued me. Their description in codex Imperialis painted a picture of an almost hopeless guardsman, a single human fully in the knowledge that 99% of the things out there can and will squish him into meat paste, but he still fights. He still fights because as part of an incalculably large fighting force, supported by massive war machines, artillery and reinforcements.
Yes the Astartes are superhuman, and have all the heroes and all the shiny armour etc but to me they are almost less heroic because of all the advantages they go into combat with. I have never been a meta-gamer, and in my experience not many IG players are. It has always been infinitely more rewarding to win with my guard army than any of the others I have. Strangely I don't feel the same about the Empire in Warhammer Fantasy, I have a night goblin army there. Again, not meta game but tremendous fun.
I almost wish sometimes that the imperium didn't have space marines, and that mankind was simply represented by this incredibly human army.
My favourite special character back in 2nd ed was Yarrick, he was nowhere near the match of well, many special characters, but what a character!
For a start I love the whole concept of Commissars, they really add flavour to the IG, but you have this man, tackling in single combat an alien monster in effect and winning by sheer grit and determination because he knew a city's fate depended on it, and going on to tackle Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka, you know the rest of the story, but it illustrates for me what the Imperial guard are all about. Bring your Daemons, your Screamer-killers or your Wraith Knights, we will still stand and fight, and keep fighting until you or we are destroyed!
It did take until I was an adult to collect IG, purely down to the cost. Back then there was no plastic IG squad, just the metal ones, and it was simply down to cost that I elected to collect Blood Angels (well, cost and who doesn't like red? ). You had to spend alot of money to assemble an IG army of any worthwhile composition or points total, and several units, like Sentinels, only had really iffy old models (creme egg anyone?).
So in conclusion, I would say that people like the Imperial Guard because they feel real, you or I could be a guardsman. They are less science fantasy and more science fiction, kinda like why Batman will always be better then Superman, because he isn't an immortal alien with lasers for eyes, he is a squishy little human using what tools he has to do the best he can.

I LOVE THEIR EVERYTHING! IMPERIAL GUARD ARE AWESOME!1!1!!1! But in all seriousness i love their fluff. I love their tanks (Russes <3 ). I love their overkill english accents, i love their equipment and insignificance.I love how they are normal people told to fight the horrors of the universe. I love them so much Oh and sentinels. Dey are sexy. Oh and valkyries. they're sexy as hell too.

Because I can make any regiment I want. If I want to represent my local Regiment, I can. If I want to represent a British Regiment from the Peninsular War, then I can and have.

Plus FRFSRF is a brilliant order to use, Tanks and TANKS!!

 BlaxicanX wrote:
B-but Space Marines are more popular than the Guard.

Which is why I'm going for the hilarious concept of CSM with allied IG to smash apart my SM friends! Time to get that glory back from those hogs!

It involves a heldrake, a BBoS DP, a Vendetta, a couple of Russes...

I'm trying not to do cheese hammer, but the two fliers are kinda a must-take.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sierra 1247 wrote:
Because I can make any regiment I want. If I want to represent my local Regiment, I can. If I want to represent a British Regiment from the Peninsular War, then I can and have.

Plus FRFSRF is a brilliant order to use, Tanks and TANKS!!

ABG panzer battalion anyone?

What's FRFSRF?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what's it do?

Brutal Viking wrote:
What's FRFSRF?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what's it do?

First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire.

And it allows lasgun guard to make another shot.

So it's like the Tau volly fire or invocation of fire. I've always wanted an IG army for many of the reasons listed in this post but I HATE painting so that's always stopped me but I'm looking at doing a blob/swarm army now for my second one. It's a toss up between nids and IG now so just waiting to see what the new nid dex looks like

Brutal Viking wrote:
So it's like the Tau volly fire or invocation of fire. I've always wanted an IG army for many of the reasons listed in this post but I HATE painting so that's always stopped me but I'm looking at doing a blob/swarm army now for my second one. It's a toss up between nids and IG now so just waiting to see what the new nid dex looks like

If you hate painting, commission and ebay are your friend.

Its all personal opinion, people might say for non human players that they betrayed their own race. I don't play guard but I like there fluff. And as we are all humans we can relate, it comes down to what someone likes and the play style they want.

Think about it to online games and MMOs why do people play humans?

People like the Imperial Guard because, as has been said, it is easy to relate to their doctrine of combat and their units. Tactics come almost naturally when playing them as well...although that doesn't help much in a fantasy environment. I also think their paint schemes being able to match those in history for their camoflage appeals to real life veterans and military history buffs.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
People like the Imperial Guard because, as has been said, it is easy to relate to their doctrine of combat and their units. Tactics come almost naturally when playing them as well...although that doesn't help much in a fantasy environment. I also think their paint schemes being able to match those in history for their camoflage appeals to real life veterans and military history buffs.

I like the IG tactics - either put some men or a lot of men at something, and if they're dying in droves, roll up a big gun.

Easy to use, fun to be.

Unless you play nids.

They you're fked.

Because Tanks..

..Because if your deployment is not covered with tanks, then your doing Guard wrong

I'm starting up Traitor Mechanicum Guard as a side project along the new year , so it also the amount of customizing you can do with them as well

Tanks tanks and more tanks. Plus its always fun when you curb stomp an army filled with 3 story tall monsters with an army consisting of 5'8 humans wearing cardboard and a flashlight

People also like the underdog. I mean when you a bunch of normal humans defeating super genetically demon humans it kind of feels good.

There are 3 reasons why I play the IG. First of all, the fluff attracted me as they are just Human, like myself. Since hitting middle age and losing my delusions of granduer. Some of us "ole-timers" totally dig that man. Surviving by your courage and wits.

Secondly, how many total chapters/craft worlds/chaos warbands, etc, are there? The answer is not enough. There are more than a million different IG regiments, probably closer to a Billion. How is that for variety?

And lastly, I love the IG codex because its units can field platoons/squadrons with their unit choices. Go Big or Go Home! That is the IG major advantage with their codex.

I like Imperial Guard because I was in the army and I can relate to them. They'll be my next army depending if the new codex is good.
Also, this.

And sometimes, humans are awesome.

The main reason I liked guard was first off the leman russ. I wasnt able to get into 40k but played D&D and my friends always saw the 40k stuff and wanted to play, after a couple years we finally got into it. The russ and my love of tanks made me go with guard. But I also liked guard because in a time where theres daemons, man eating aliens, monstrous creatures, high tech aliens, super robots, and mutated super humans and humans in super armor with crazy weapons... and guard still fights all the horrors even though they are just ordinary men




plus their tanks are the best!

A lot of the reason is because they are "US". We are average people and the guard is made up of average people. We can emphasize with them a lot easier than an alian or a superhuman whose mind is alian to us.

the standard issue Legendary Balls Of Steel.

they are the most bad ass manliest warriors evar.

also? I looooove artillery

As a former IG player all I can say is this.

TANKS

LOTS AND LOTS OF TANKS

and enough Artillery to cause a forecast for steel rain.

Served in the military and I like that I can easily make an IG army that's themed around the force in which I served.

Some of the responses in this thread are poetry. Good job, guys. Not going to beat a dead horse here, but I second the "capturing humanity", the "HUEG TANKS", and the "very customizable" arguments.

I love the idea of trying to get into the mindset of a guardsman. With space marines it's kind of fun pretending to be a god of war but think about the average routine of a space marine, you pray, train repeat until an engagement, sit in your drop pod, land and rain bolter shells into all the terrified whatever-your-fighting and maybe die. If you live you just repeat that for a century.

But if you are a guardsman, you are raised by your family living a normal life until you get that letter in the mail with an aquila stamped on it. You have been drafted into the Imperial guard. Live or die you will never see your family or even your home world again. Your rights are striped from you, you become a number, a weapon and your one purpose is to die fighting the enemies of the imperium. If you even manage to survive basic training and traversing the warp you find your self plummeting towards a hostel world at max velocity where you will likely not survive your first hour.

You can imagine yourself holding your lasgun praying to the emperor as artillery fire pounds all around you as your commissar and priest walk down your lines as you wait for the order to break cover of your trench to run towards your certain death. Or watching in pure terror as a living tide of claws and chitin is devouring your forward lines getting ever closer, or hearing the bellowing waaaaagh of thousands of guttural voices as they sprint towards you, waiting for them to get into firing range.

The list goes on and on. It really adds character to every model and that you can really put yourself on the table! Just one scared human in a world of monsters. I think if Imperial guard were never included the 40k universe would be much more over the top and kinda silly. Space orcs and elves fighting among super advanced fish people and space terminator Egyptians just doesn't work without some common ground. I think Imperial guard put the Grim in Grim dark.

I like Guardsmen because they are human. They are outmatched by almost all foes, get horribly beaten up and still strive on, without the humongous physical and psychological advantages of their Marine friends. And if they eventually pull through and win, with nothing but numbers and honest human spirit, I like them.

I am fine with Guardsmen beating the odds, but the issue is when it becomes expected. Normal human heroism is not as cool when it is no surprise. When a commissar cuts down enemy Astartes left, right and centre (I AM LOOKING AT YOU, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE) I tend to yawn and move on. An Ollanius Pius-esque story, on the other hand, that is good.

I suppose I just have different tastes in Guard. Some seem to like them to the point that they discredit Astartes of being important at all. I... I just happen to prefer the cardboard armoured flashlight armed balls of adamantium Guardsman to the cocky 'Who cares if that Plasma-armed Marine is coming? I have a Plasma too!' Guardsman.

Just my two small coins.

And they do have more roles than that. 40K would not seem so over-the-top without some normal weak humans, so that everything else can have something to compare themselves to.

They have a fantastic forgeworld line which definitely draws in a lot of veteran players.

Lentils wrote:
I love the idea of trying to get into the mindset of a guardsman. With space marines it's kind of fun pretending to be a god of war but think about the average routine of a space marine, you pray, train repeat until an engagement, sit in your drop pod, land and rain bolter shells into all the terrified whatever-your-fighting and maybe die. If you live you just repeat that for a century.

But if you are a guardsman, you are raised by your family living a normal life until you get that letter in the mail with an aquila stamped on it. You have been drafted into the Imperial guard. Live or die you will never see your family or even your home world again. Your rights are striped from you, you become a number, a weapon and your one purpose is to die fighting the enemies of the imperium. If you even manage to survive basic training and traversing the warp you find your self plummeting towards a hostel world at max velocity where you will likely not survive your first hour.

You can imagine yourself holding your lasgun praying to the emperor as artillery fire pounds all around you as your commissar and priest walk down your lines as you wait for the order to break cover of your trench to run towards your certain death. Or watching in pure terror as a living tide of claws and chitin is devouring your forward lines getting ever closer, or hearing the bellowing waaaaagh of thousands of guttural voices as they sprint towards you, waiting for them to get into firing range.

The list goes on and on. It really adds character to every model and that you can really put yourself on the table! Just one scared human in a world of monsters. I think if Imperial guard were never included the 40k universe would be much more over the top and kinda silly. Space orcs and elves fighting among super advanced fish people and space terminator Egyptians just doesn't work without some common ground. I think Imperial guard put the Grim in Grim dark.

Some one read FIFTEEN HOURS eh?

The tenacity alone draws me.

In a universe full of Rampaging, pillaging, murdering super humans (and then, ya know, their evil twins), 50 foot tall insect aliens. 3.5 ft. tall aliens with tech you can only dream about. Space elves, Evil space elves.

Not to mention one false move or thought or comment, and your commanding officer is likely to put a bullet in the back of your brain.


Oh and you're armed with the equivalent of a flashlight (yes i know the fluff makes lasguns sound mean, but really, it's a goddamn flashlight).

Takes some real tenacity, which makes them cool.


Also, armies of mostly tanks. What's not to like ?


The entirety of the Death Korps of Krieg - from models to fluff - is superb.

Thanks guys for clearing that up for me. I guess people wanting to relate to the IG in a world of aliens is a strong motive for wanting to play them. But for me I like to play futuristic games such as WH40K to get away from human perspective and have the freedom to play as many different races such as Orkz and Eldar.

Putting IG in power armour was a silly idea now that you guys have said what you said and I agree with your opinions on the fluff, gameplay, models and TAHNKS!

I like guard for several reasons, mainly because they are people. like you and me!

They make a good force to game with because they are so flexibe. You can field a huge army, or you can do a really tough tank army, or you can do super elite combat ogryns and storm trooper armies. They g=have alot of different units for variation and painting fun.

As for the in diagesis beckground, remeber there are supposed to be 1000 chapters of 1000 marines, so 1 million marines. THATS IT! For the whole galaxy.

Consider that there are 8.8 million people in Mexico city. So while in the "fluff" a marine would be able to kill 8 humans, in game 1 marine assaulted by 8 humans would not last 1 round of combat.

So lets see 1million marines take over a planet. I think not.

I would add: because of the sheer number of models. The average number of models in IG armies I have faced has got to be 80+.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I would add: because of the sheer number of models. The average number of models in IG armies I have faced has got to be 80+.

Damn right!

Those platoons are badass. A single 1750 point army could take years to complete, so a modelling perspective kicks in too

 techsoldaten wrote:
I would add: because of the sheer number of models. The average number of models in IG armies I have faced has got to be 80+.

You should play me, then. A typical 2000 point army for my has ~11 models.

 Haight wrote:
Also, armies of mostly tanks. What's not to like ?

My average Guard list has no more than 3 tanks or so. Sometimes I run no tanks and 200+ Guardsmen. What I like about the Guard is that regular humans can fight against extragalactic space monsters and literal daemons from hell and win. I like the idea that, as weak as a single human is, Humanity as a whole can be the thing that bumps in the night.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You should play me, then. A typical 2000 point army for my has ~11 models.

I would love to play a list like that with one of my all infantry lists.

Like most stated, the Guard is just regular guys/gals dumped in a ship, shipped to the other side of the Imperium and told to do fight for the Emperor and allow the Imperium to go on for another day. They got the heaviest machines around, and their tactics is..really anything. Savages from a feral world fighting close quarters besides gangers from a hive world doing hit and runs and farmers from an agri-world digging a trench system to hold the onslaught all the while having the Industrial world artillery Regiment bombing the foul Rebels/Traitors/Xenos/whatever into dust.

Also, I got into 40k with playing DoW, mostly Winter Assault. General Sturnn simply has more style, grit and personality than the SM commander in the original game (Sturnn evens beats the other 2 IG commanders in the following game IMO). He was driven by what the mission/his duty required him to do, but at the same time he wasn't a "send in the next wave, FOR DA EMPRAH" kind of leader. His cynical nature allowed him to keep a critical thinking.

I also like the "romanced" concept of commanders leading from the front and by example, and while space marines are known to do that, they're just warrior monks who doesn't do anything eldse and know nothing about being human anymore, while the Guard is all about Humanity.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Like most stated, the Guard is just regular guys/gals dumped in a ship, shipped to the other side of the Imperium and told to do fight for the Emperor and allow the Imperium to go on for another day. They got the heaviest machines around, and their tactics is..really anything. Savages from a feral world fighting close quarters besides gangers from a hive world doing hit and runs and farmers from an agri-world digging a trench system to hold the onslaught all the while having the Industrial world artillery Regiment bombing the foul Rebels/Traitors/Xenos/whatever into dust.

Also, I got into 40k with playing DoW, mostly Winter Assault. General Sturnn simply has more style, grit and personality than the SM commander in the original game (Sturnn evens beats the other 2 IG commanders in the following game IMO). He was driven by what the mission/his duty required him to do, but at the same time he wasn't a "send in the next wave, FOR DA EMPRAH" kind of leader. His cynical nature allowed him to keep a critical thinking.

I also like the "romanced" concept of commanders leading from the front and by example, and while space marines are known to do that, they're just warrior monks who doesn't do anything eldse and know nothing about being human anymore, while the Guard is all about Humanity.

Well said, good man!

Exalted

IG. Whats not to like!

I have always had at least one squad of IG at one point or another in my life. Now I have Steel Legion. Its quite simply the fact that they are vanilla humans. Plus, they have lots of tanks, I have wheeled converstions for the Chimeras, and they have lots of cool looking planes. I also feel that earth colored Space Marines don't look right. Thats why I have Imperial Fists. But the guard I can bring out the tans, browns, and flat greens. I have also always loved the way Sentinels look, so I have a few of them.

What everyone has said so far about being able to relate to them most easily.


And one other important point. They put all the other armies in perspective. It's easy to get caught up with Space Marines power armour and 100ft tall monstrous creatures that could eat entire towns. IG puts all the death and destruction in context of actual humans, and give you something to measure the power of the super-humans against.

But I dont play them because I can relate most easily to IG. I would play Dark Eldar if this was the case...

I like big tanks and I cannot lie?

When a tank rolls in and puts its barrel in your face you get....BOOOM!

The FW tanks really do add a LOT to the IG on the board too. Adding in those heavy weapon platforms on defensive boards just makes the game FEEL so much more like an actual 40k battle as opposed to the 'two armies meet, round 1...fight!'.

 Melissia wrote:
I like big tanks and I cannot lie?

Exalted!



"I like big TANKS and I can not lie
You BATTUL brothers can't deny!"

Now we need to make the whole song

I like Imperial Guard because they are the every man. They're not super brave or pious or even well armed. They're essentially just regular joes thrown into a situation that would induce pants sh@#ing horror in normal men and some rise above that fear to succeed in their mission.

I like nothing more than when my guard out fight eight foot tall gods of war in power armor.

Tanks, unit variety, and general army style/appearance. That 's why I like them, at any rate.

They were a very good army in 5th , so people liked them . then they started to suck in 6th , but escalation and supplements and getting ally with updated codex helped them a lot . They are also the best army to play , if ones play circle is ok with counts as and tailoring . No other army in the game cant ailor like IG.

On the contrary, many of us have liked IG since long before fifth edition. I liked them back in third when they really sucked

Also... the IG gets the CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

Which is, simply, the greatest thing to be seen on a battlefield of the 41st millennium. Or ever.

The CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT knows no fear.

The CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT does not understand the meaning of the word "defeat".

The CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT is incapable of failing.

The CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT crushes its enemies, sees them driven before it, and hears the lamentations of their women.

It pales compared to the GORGON ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

Isn't the Gorgon open-topped? Have never seen it IRL or played against it, just seen it on FW's site.

If it is, seems absolutely disastrous for the Gorgon's intended role...

Grey hammer put it very well, but I reckon d4chan said it best:

"When recruits are inducted into the Imperial Guard, they are given four things. Their regulation flashlight (commonly referred to by the troops as "lasguns" for some reason), their regulation cardboard box (which certain regiments have taken to cutting up and wearing into battle, calling it "flak armor"), a large stack of toilet paper (which the recruiters refer to as the "Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer"), and the regulation extra large wheelbarrow that allows them to cart their massive brazen balls into battle."

In short: real men join the guard. If Marines don't actually feel fear, then how the hell can they be heroic? Courage is not the absence of fear, courage lies in overcoming fear. That's why, for me, as much as I love my Marines, they'll always play second fiddle to the guard in my heart.

If Marines don't actually feel fear, then how the hell can they be heroic?

Well your heroic if you win , if you lose your not heroic . Marines have a higher chance of surviving battles in w40k , at least in the fluff, so this makes them more heroic then IG , who die in milions every day.

 LeadLegion wrote:
Grey hammer put it very well, but I reckon d4chan said it best:

"When recruits are inducted into the Imperial Guard, they are given four things. Their regulation flashlight (commonly referred to by the troops as "lasguns" for some reason), their regulation cardboard box (which certain regiments have taken to cutting up and wearing into battle, calling it "flak armor"), a large stack of toilet paper (which the recruiters refer to as the "Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer"), and the regulation extra large wheelbarrow that allows them to cart their massive brazen balls into battle."

In short: real men join the guard. If Marines don't actually feel fear, then how the hell can they be heroic? Courage is not the absence of fear, courage lies in overcoming fear. That's why, for me, as much as I love my Marines, they'll always play second fiddle to the guard in my heart.

WHAT?!?!?!?! A 1d4chan snippet that doesn't have extremely vulgar language? What world is this???

The unsung heroes. The Imperiums first, and last, line of defense. They are the perfect soldier forged from childhood like Cadians, or an unprepared civilian given a lasgun at the last barricade in an overrun hive. They are humans and represent humanity. They fight for the one next to them, shielded by the soldier in front, and protecting the one behind. They are thousands of boots willingly marching to their death to give their planet another hour of respite. They do not fight for glory or conquest nor oppression or hatred, that is for generals and governors. They fight for survival, their own or someone else.

I fell for the "charm" of orks. My darker side liked the silent automatons and cold scheming of the Thousand sons. But the Imperial Guard spoke to my heart. In a world where everyone else is faster, stronger, bigger better equipped and superhuman in every way these guys are the unique ones. Everyone likes the underdog

Makumba wrote:

If Marines don't actually feel fear, then how the hell can they be heroic?

Well your heroic if you win , if you lose your not heroic . Marines have a higher chance of surviving battles in w40k , at least in the fluff, so this makes them more heroic then IG , who die in milions every day.

Really? Last Stands are heroic aren't they? Almost by definition. Also by definition: if it's your last stand, you lost. And died. Otherwise, you lived to stand again and it wasn't your "last".

There's a lot more to being a hero than winning.

Walking into the firestorm of battle knowing that millions, no billions, of men exactly like you (in terms of both training and equipment) have already died? Knowing you have almost no chance of survival? Doing it anyway because, dammit, people like you are all that stands between humanity and ravening Orks (or Necrons, or Demons or Nids)? How is that NOT more heroic than walking through the same firestorm in near-invulernable armour, knowing that even if you are wounded, chances are good that it won't do more than inconvenience you because your a near-immortal superman with two hearts, three lungs and blood that coagulates faster than tar in a freezer?

There's also more to being a hero to dying, too.

Also apart from the utterly badass Vostroyans, the IG have the Elysian drop troops and the DKoK. I just can't make my mind up which of those two to start...

I admit, visually speaking, I have a liking for Cadians. They just have such a classy sci-fi style.

 Melissia wrote:
There's also more to being a hero to dying, too.

Also true .

Also also... for a human army, they provide you with the opportunity to field female models that aren't Sisters of Battle.

Speaking of modeling for those who like history or more "real" looking models you can buy any 28mm human and put them into squads. Makes them far cheaper too. If GW allowed and encouraged variety with the guard we would see so many regiments and conversions (well more of them). there is a certain unique possibility you can go with an imperial army that goes beyond colour and stance and opens up the doors of endless possibilities.

 Psienesis wrote:
Also also... for a human army, they provide you with the opportunity to field female models that aren't Sisters of Battle.

Only by going outside of GW's model range (unless you have a lot of spare Necromunda models lying around) can you do that. Which is sad, frankly.

Really? Last Stands are heroic aren't they? Almost by definition. Also by definition: if it's your last stand, you lost. And died. Otherwise, you lived to stand again and it wasn't your "last".

Only if in the end your side wins . Otherwise it is just like the old latin saying goes woe to the defeated . Only time I can think of that is different is when politics come in to play . You guys get whooped , so the high command puts the blame on some lower ranking dude and makes the dead "Our heroic soldiers" to draw away the public from them being the suicide orders source . Or when you have an ally force and the war is clearly nearing its end and you don't want them to have a trained and equiped force when that happens , so you send them on some "heroic" mission to bleed them dry . That is how heroism looked in the last 100 years of our history at least.

@ Maktumba: You're clearly a man who thinks for himself rather than swallowing news reports hook line and sinker. That is indeed how things have been in many conflicts (particularly the various brush wars in Africa) in the last 100 years.

squidhills wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Also also... for a human army, they provide you with the opportunity to field female models that aren't Sisters of Battle.

Only by going outside of GW's model range (unless you have a lot of spare Necromunda models lying around) can you do that. Which is sad, frankly.

It is sad, and we had a huge thread on this months ago... but, eh, feth 'em. I'd like GW to produce female models for the IG, but since they don't, I'll give my money to other studios.

I can honestly say I don't get the appeal of the Imperial Guard. It's not to say I don't completely understand the appeal of armies that are like that; it's just I don't understand their appeal in the grand scheme of Warhammer 40k. I have a few WW2 airplane models and what not that are all cheaper and more highly detailed than any GW has ever produced and it actually anchors me to my departed grandfather in a way as I painted on some decals of his Navy unit onto the ones I painted going on WW2 naval warfare themes.

40k is full of all these crazy unknowable super things. That's kind of the appeal to the universe, to me. IG is one of the two armies I have no interest in ever collecting, the other being Tau because they just look really dumb to me. Would rather collect Gundamn models, where there's actual shape and nuance to the design rather than being boxes with more boxes holding a gun.

I don't understand why people talk about tanks. And I don't care about the masses of infantry. Heavy artillery is why I love the IG!

Because the IG brings more dakka to the table than any other army, with the possible exception of Orks... but the IG brings more pie-plates than Orks.

That is one of their big appeals. Their devastating artillery. TauDar can have their fancy skimmer-tanks and Wave Serpents and Riptides and Fire Warriors... I'm dropping 10" pie-plates with off-table artillery.

Or fielding a dozen tanks. Or a never-ending tide of conscripts... I will eventually drown you in bodies.

Mostly, though, it's because the IG have balls the size of church bells, made out of solid brass.

You can personalise your force to be entirely unique. It's the sheer unbridled variety. In terms of models, you can have literaly any theme a human army could be. Even just with the Cadians you can have a desert camo army, a bold colourful army, urban soldiers, anything. And that's just Cadians, you can have catachans painted to be anything from dusty desert fighters to beat up urban warriors. Then there's all the other armies gw and fw sell.


On the battlefield you can suit your play style, bombard from the table edge then send in the blob to wipe up, shoot them to pieces with inf then a couple tanks in to crunch up anything big, a wall of tanks and chimeras or a Valkyrie and vendetta bloodbath, it's up to you.




Also, space marines look like buzz lightyear.

Thanks people for your thoughts, it looks like there's some very dedicated IG players.

 Psienesis wrote:
Mostly, though, it's because the IG have balls the size of church bells, made out of solid brass.

Basically this. In a galaxy filled with super humans, demons, and space locusts, simple men and women hold the line.

 mr_bruno wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Mostly, though, it's because the IG have balls the size of church bells, made out of solid brass.

Basically this. In a galaxy filled with super humans, demons, and space locusts, simple men and women hold the line.

Or as happens more often than not, totally dies inexplicably one night as the entire platoon is cut to ribbons by stealthy shuriken-type things.

Or is consumed as bio-mass.

Or gets bludgeoned by giant hulking spore people.

Or discovers what it's like to be turned into paste from the inside out with daemonic Dubstep guns.

Or gets really tired of the fact all of these other things are true and turns to chaos himself only to discover the righteous bolter round exploding him into space giblets.

And they keep coming back for more.

You don't seem to grasp that all of those things you mentioned... Eldar, Orks, Tyranid, Daemons and Space Marines, are all super-human space monsters (even the Space Marines).

And yet, the IG goes out to fight them, every day, being just regular people.

*That* is what makes the IG a cool faction for a lot of players.

Even if you kill a guardsman, he wins; he gets to eat at the Emperor's table that night!

There are only a few other armies(including other game systems) that allow me to play as Zap Brannigan.

Also, as has been mentioned, the sci-fi look of cadians.

Another thing that makes the IG cool is that nobody has the same raw firepower as the IG do. Tau and Eldar have can manuever better and have some gimmicks to make their firepower count, but nobody turns a table into a cratered wasteland like the IG can.

You want 9 ordnance barrage blast weapons? Go for it.

You want 30 lascannons in a list? No problem.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Another thing that makes the IG cool is that nobody has the same raw firepower as the IG do. Tau and Eldar have can manuever better and have some gimmicks to make their firepower count, but nobody turns a table into a cratered wasteland like the IG can.

You want 9 ordnance barrage blast weapons? Go for it.

You want 30 lascannons in a list? No problem.

Yep, an army that is inherently gunline survives rather well in the shooting 6th edition.

IG did well in the Armor Edition, too. They did pretty good in the Assault Edition by shooting the gak out of the Assaulters before they got into charge range.

Never said they didn't, but the present is what concerns most people.

Just pointing out that the IG is the one army that never really suffers a hard-counter to its whole bag of tricks.

Sure, certain things hard-counter certain specific builds (like horde armies vs the low-model-count Armored Fist IG armies) but the IG Codex offers something for everyone to keep your army viable and interesting.

It is not, for example, Codex Tau, which (basically) has 2 tricks it can pull, and denied those tricks drops off rather sharply on the power level. Still good at shooting, but lacking the leafblower capability of the IG without all its unit synergies. Also lacking the IG's artillery pie-plates in general.

 tuebor wrote:

 Haight wrote:
Also, armies of mostly tanks. What's not to like ?

My average Guard list has no more than 3 tanks or so. Sometimes I run no tanks and 200+ Guardsmen. What I like about the Guard is that regular humans can fight against extragalactic space monsters and literal daemons from hell and win. I like the idea that, as weak as a single human is, Humanity as a whole can be the thing that bumps in the night.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You should play me, then. A typical 2000 point army for my has ~11 models.

I would love to play a list like that with one of my all infantry lists.

Then between our two ends of the pendulum, we can add "versatility in playstyle".

 Vaktathi wrote:
Another thing that makes the IG cool is that nobody has the same raw firepower as the IG do. Tau and Eldar have can manuever better and have some gimmicks to make their firepower count, but nobody turns a table into a cratered wasteland like the IG can.

You want 9 ordnance barrage blast weapons? Go for it.

You want 30 lascannons in a list? No problem.

They actually don't. They can put out more large blasts(and that is only if you are discounting the R'varna) s and that is IT. Also, large blasts really aren't that great with so many MCs running around.

For 75points(3 Autocannon Teams) guard gets 3 Str 7 AP 4 hits on a weak base
For 65 points(1 Broadside) points tau gets 3 Str 7 AP 4 hits and 3 Str 5 AP 5 hits on a tough base.
Ouch. Tougher, shootier, and cheaper.

Guard cannot even hope to rival broadsides and missile drones in terms of firepower and resiliency to point cost.

That is just an example. Tau are much more efficient in almost every regard. The buffmander is OP. Guard has nothing remotely even remotely comparable to a riptide. Compare one to a russ and lament.

Off-table Artillery.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Another thing that makes the IG cool is that nobody has the same raw firepower as the IG do. Tau and Eldar have can manuever better and have some gimmicks to make their firepower count, but nobody turns a table into a cratered wasteland like the IG can.

You want 9 ordnance barrage blast weapons? Go for it.

You want 30 lascannons in a list? No problem.

They actually don't. They can put out more large blasts(and that is only if you are discounting the R'varna) s and that is IT. Also, large blasts really aren't that great with so many MCs running around.

For 75points(3 Autocannon Teams) guard gets 3 Str 7 AP 4 hits on a weak base
For 65 points(1 Broadside) points tau gets 3 Str 7 AP 4 hits and 3 Str 5 AP 5 hits on a tough base.
Ouch. Tougher, shootier, and cheaper.

Guard cannot even hope to rival broadsides and missile drones in terms of firepower and resiliency to point cost.

That is just an example. Tau are much more efficient in almost every regard. The buffmander is OP. Guard has nothing remotely even remotely comparable to a riptide. Compare one to a russ and lament.

Can tau bring in 150 ish men as scoring... I am sure if 15 bare bone squads armed with krack grenades (costing round 1005) (thats 165 scoring men) spread them all out in spereate squads and just ran forward they could beat many lists. In combat each man has a S6 AP4 attack against heavy stuff and most units can at best kill 10 a trun (as all the squads are seperate) (not counting blasts which may not be great once they are all spread out). Then in a 2000 pount game you can double that (minus 1 squad and krak grenades for a company command) giving you a total of 325 men. For i think just at 2000 points. I dont see tau being able to take that on. Especially if they all spread out and just run forward. Thats a lot of bodies to kill.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Another thing that makes the IG cool is that nobody has the same raw firepower as the IG do. Tau and Eldar have can manuever better and have some gimmicks to make their firepower count, but nobody turns a table into a cratered wasteland like the IG can.

You want 9 ordnance barrage blast weapons? Go for it.

You want 30 lascannons in a list? No problem.

They actually don't. They can put out more large blasts(and that is only if you are discounting the R'varna) s and that is IT. Also, large blasts really aren't that great with so many MCs running around.

For 75points(3 Autocannon Teams) guard gets 3 Str 7 AP 4 hits on a weak base
For 65 points(1 Broadside) points tau gets 3 Str 7 AP 4 hits and 3 Str 5 AP 5 hits on a tough base.
Ouch. Tougher, shootier, and cheaper.

Guard cannot even hope to rival broadsides and missile drones in terms of firepower and resiliency to point cost.

That is just an example. Tau are much more efficient in almost every regard. The buffmander is OP. Guard has nothing remotely even remotely comparable to a riptide. Compare one to a russ and lament.

Can tau bring in 150 ish men as scoring... I am sure if 15 bare bone squads armed with krack grenades (costing round 1005) (thats 165 scoring men) spread them all out in spereate squads and just ran forward they could beat many lists. In combat each man has a S6 AP4 attack against heavy stuff and most units can at best kill 10 a trun (as all the squads are seperate) (not counting blasts which may not be great once they are all spread out). Then in a 2000 pount game you can double that (minus 1 squad and krak grenades for a company command) giving you a total of 325 men. For i think just at 2000 points. I dont see tau being able to take that on. Especially if they all spread out and just run forward. Thats a lot of bodies to kill.

Tau actually could with kroot, but in general, I concede, no. They do not bring that many. Also keep in mind that morale is a factor.

3 Broadsides with Missile Drones, for I think 267 points can kill about 18 guardsmen per turn. S. A iontide could probably kill about 13 guardsmen since spreading out is impossible with 325 men. With 2 Iontides and 3 broadside teams you can kill 80 guardsmen per turn. This means everything guard will be dead by turn 4. This is all with about 1200 points of tau. With 800 points left for even more firepower.

And that assumes guard fails no morale checks(which they will).

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Another thing that makes the IG cool is that nobody has the same raw firepower as the IG do. Tau and Eldar have can manuever better and have some gimmicks to make their firepower count, but nobody turns a table into a cratered wasteland like the IG can.

You want 9 ordnance barrage blast weapons? Go for it.

You want 30 lascannons in a list? No problem.

They actually don't. They can put out more large blasts(and that is only if you are discounting the R'varna) s and that is IT. Also, large blasts really aren't that great with so many MCs running around.

For 75points(3 Autocannon Teams) guard gets 3 Str 7 AP 4 hits on a weak base
For 65 points(1 Broadside) points tau gets 3 Str 7 AP 4 hits and 3 Str 5 AP 5 hits on a tough base.
Ouch. Tougher, shootier, and cheaper.

Guard cannot even hope to rival broadsides and missile drones in terms of firepower and resiliency to point cost.

That is just an example. Tau are much more efficient in almost every regard. The buffmander is OP. Guard has nothing remotely even remotely comparable to a riptide. Compare one to a russ and lament.

Can tau bring in 150 ish men as scoring... I am sure if 15 bare bone squads armed with krack grenades (costing round 1005) (thats 165 scoring men) spread them all out in spereate squads and just ran forward they could beat many lists. In combat each man has a S6 AP4 attack against heavy stuff and most units can at best kill 10 a trun (as all the squads are seperate) (not counting blasts which may not be great once they are all spread out). Then in a 2000 pount game you can double that (minus 1 squad and krak grenades for a company command) giving you a total of 325 men. For i think just at 2000 points. I dont see tau being able to take that on. Especially if they all spread out and just run forward. Thats a lot of bodies to kill.

Tau actually could with kroot, but in general, I concede, no. They do not bring that many. Also keep in mind that morale is a factor.

3 Broadsides with Missile Drones, for I think 267 points can kill about 18 guardsmen per turn. S. A iontide could probably kill about 13 guardsmen since spreading out is impossible with 325 men. With 2 Iontides and 3 broadside teams you can kill 80 guardsmen per turn. This means everything guard will be dead by turn 4. This is all with about 1200 points of tau. With 800 points left for even more firepower.

And that assumes guard fails no morale checks(which they will).

Can all of that split their fire? Any solid rounds from a squad can only kill 10 men at most. And beleive me, spreading out your men is easy with some spare hands on deck to move for you. So reduce those blasts kills, and each broadside team can kill 10 men unless they can split their shooting.

And as a side note tau look desgusting when put next to good IG mnodels

Im doing this because some people forget how scary a man and his lasgun is when backed up by 300.

This may not be accurite so let me know if i am wrong.

"A single lasgun doesn't do diddly, but 50 lasguns? That's a whole lotta diddly!"

 Psienesis wrote:
"A single lasgun doesn't do diddly, but 50 lasguns? That's a whole lotta diddly!"

 Da Ork Killa wrote:
But I was curious, why are they so liked?

Tanks!

Tanks tanks tanks tanks tanks tanks tanks!

That is all.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Another thing that makes the IG cool is that nobody has the same raw firepower as the IG do. Tau and Eldar have can manuever better and have some gimmicks to make their firepower count, but nobody turns a table into a cratered wasteland like the IG can.

You want 9 ordnance barrage blast weapons? Go for it.

You want 30 lascannons in a list? No problem.

They actually don't. They can put out more large blasts(and that is only if you are discounting the R'varna) s and that is IT. Also, large blasts really aren't that great with so many MCs running around.

For 75points(3 Autocannon Teams) guard gets 3 Str 7 AP 4 hits on a weak base
For 65 points(1 Broadside) points tau gets 3 Str 7 AP 4 hits and 3 Str 5 AP 5 hits on a tough base.
Ouch. Tougher, shootier, and cheaper.

Guard cannot even hope to rival broadsides and missile drones in terms of firepower and resiliency to point cost.

That is just an example. Tau are much more efficient in almost every regard. The buffmander is OP. Guard has nothing remotely even remotely comparable to a riptide. Compare one to a russ and lament.

Can tau bring in 150 ish men as scoring... I am sure if 15 bare bone squads armed with krack grenades (costing round 1005) (thats 165 scoring men) spread them all out in spereate squads and just ran forward they could beat many lists. In combat each man has a S6 AP4 attack against heavy stuff and most units can at best kill 10 a trun (as all the squads are seperate) (not counting blasts which may not be great once they are all spread out). Then in a 2000 pount game you can double that (minus 1 squad and krak grenades for a company command) giving you a total of 325 men. For i think just at 2000 points. I dont see tau being able to take that on. Especially if they all spread out and just run forward. Thats a lot of bodies to kill.

Tau actually could with kroot, but in general, I concede, no. They do not bring that many. Also keep in mind that morale is a factor.

3 Broadsides with Missile Drones, for I think 267 points can kill about 18 guardsmen per turn. S. A iontide could probably kill about 13 guardsmen since spreading out is impossible with 325 men. With 2 Iontides and 3 broadside teams you can kill 80 guardsmen per turn. This means everything guard will be dead by turn 4. This is all with about 1200 points of tau. With 800 points left for even more firepower.

And that assumes guard fails no morale checks(which they will).

Can all of that split their fire? Any solid rounds from a squad can only kill 10 men at most. And beleive me, spreading out your men is easy with some spare hands on deck to move for you. So reduce those blasts kills, and each broadside team can kill 10 men unless they can split their shooting.

And as a side note tau look desgusting when put next to good IG mnodels

Im doing this because some people forget how scary a man and his lasgun is when backed up by 300.

This may not be accurite so let me know if i am wrong.

I agree about the models. Tau suck.

However.

Spreading out is difficult by virtue of having to fit everything. You could scour them off objectives and keep them out of effective range VERY easily. Tau are just better than guard. Sucks to say, but its true.

Maybe Tau are better in some cases, but in the long run, Human > Xenos.

 Psienesis wrote:
And they keep coming back for more.

You don't seem to grasp that all of those things you mentioned... Eldar, Orks, Tyranid, Daemons and Space Marines, are all super-human space monsters (even the Space Marines).

And yet, the IG goes out to fight them, every day, being just regular people.

*That* is what makes the IG a cool faction for a lot of players.

By that logic, Elliot Stabler is cooler than Robocop.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And they keep coming back for more.

You don't seem to grasp that all of those things you mentioned... Eldar, Orks, Tyranid, Daemons and Space Marines, are all super-human space monsters (even the Space Marines).

And yet, the IG goes out to fight them, every day, being just regular people.

*That* is what makes the IG a cool faction for a lot of players.

By that logic, Elliot Stabler is cooler than Robocop.

Better metaphor is Mike Zavala cooler than Robocop. And yeah, he is.

Simply, some people, in my experience usually older guys (and I dont mean it offensively, just my experience) simply prefer the feeling of mere humans, underdogs in universe of terrible horror, standing on their own again and again.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
3 Broadsides with Missile Drones, for I think 267 points can kill about 18 guardsmen per turn.

Except you're ignoring range here. The Broadsides can only shoot 36" away, which means it's going to take a turn or two of not shooting before they can get into range of scoring platoons camped on objectives at the back of the deployment zone, and the Broadsides are going to be suicidally exposed out in front of the rest of the Tau gunline. Meanwhile the IG have 48" range with lascannons hidden in meatshield blobs, and each of those shots is instant death to an expensive Broadside, along with a variety of vehicle heavy weapons (Vendettas, LR Executioners that Tau can hardly even attempt to roll dice against, etc) that are great at killing elite infantry.

Plus, when all else fails there's always the Stormblade. Tau are pretty much helpless against a superheavy that comes with adequate anti-deep-strike protection, since even escalating to the D-weapon Tigershark (their only hope of stopping the superheavy) just means that their opponents can bring their D-spam titans without guilt.

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And they keep coming back for more.

You don't seem to grasp that all of those things you mentioned... Eldar, Orks, Tyranid, Daemons and Space Marines, are all super-human space monsters (even the Space Marines).

And yet, the IG goes out to fight them, every day, being just regular people.

*That* is what makes the IG a cool faction for a lot of players.

By that logic, Elliot Stabler is cooler than Robocop.

Better metaphor is Mike Zavala cooler than Robocop. And yeah, he is.

Simply, some people, in my experience usually older guys (and I dont mean it offensively, just my experience) simply prefer the feeling of mere humans, underdogs in universe of terrible horror, standing on their own again and again.

Mere humans? You mean, like Sly Marbo?

 AtoMaki wrote:


Mere humans? You mean, like Sly Marbo?

YESSSS! And for that, you get an Exalt!

They are amazing, mere men against the horrors of the galaxy, sirly english accents, awesome tanks and aircraft <3

Unless they're Tanith. Seems the Tanith have Scots, Irish and Welsh accents, going by the audio book at least.

2 Reasons.

1) Because they're the underdogs in comparison to other factions in many ways; they're not genetically enhanced super soldiers, nor huge and savage, nor able to reconstruct themselves, fly around in fancy Crisis Suits, or utilize lightning quick inherent reactions and agility- its Joe Bloggs with his lasgun VS the Galaxy.

Its watching a piece of ordnance not too far from the weapons of our own time, like a battlecannon or basilisk gun, annihilate the deadly masters of the future. Its seeing your Veteran Sergeant in his armour that may as well be made of cardboard in the 41st Millenium precision shot an 8ft armoured monstrosity like a Space Marine with a shotgun shell or kill a Daemon Prince when all is almost lost. I've had both and a score more of those sorts of instances occur.

2) Because their armoury makes you giggle with glee. Its brutal, raw killing power at its finest.

No screwing about with garbage like Whirlwind. What a load of trash, it may as well be projecting assorted fart noises at the enemies of Man. If you want a real artillery piece you get a Basilisk. If you want a tank that isn't just a vehicle equipped with your infantry's heavy weapons (Predators) you have Leman Russes with proper heavy guns.

Like many times said, IG offers me great flexibility in playstile and modelling. I can do almost whatever i want.

Foot blob army? No problem.
Fully mechanized army? No problem.
Air cavalry? No problem.
Armoured battalion? No problem.
Artillery detachment? No problem.
Drop troops? No Problem.
Gunline? Possible too.

Try create something similiar in other races. It won't be so simply like for IG.

In case of modelling and painting, in other races you are limited by their apperance and avalible bits.
Can you create Roman Legionnaire, Medieval knight or prehistoric caveman with lasgun? Yes.
Now try it with a Space marine or Eldar. It won't be so easy.

next thing, you can create fluff wise Renegade guard, Tau auxillary unit, DEldar slaves etc...

Without the Imperial Guard, Marines would be the baseline - when everyone is special, no one is.

I watched Starship Troopers when I was a nipper, and Greydians have a special place in my heart.

And I love the historical nods in a couple of their factions.

And tanks.
Mainly tanks.

IG are well known for their armour. Fluff wise, it bout regular non genetically enhanced humans versus a universe of aliens and supernatural beings.

 amanita wrote:
It's harder to become a hero if you are a 7 foot armor encased mutant hybrid super soldier programmed for destruction.

Real heroes come from ordinary people just like you and me.

Ergo, Special forces with all their training and gear and what not that makes them substantially better at their jobs than most people ever can hope to be (a lot of the people will never meet the requirements no matter how much they train for it due to a less than favorable combination of genes), are not real heroes.

In any case, they're emphasized with as they're the most "normal" faction and come with more vehicles than a few other armies put together. They also get some of the best stuff written for them novel wise. The guard also supports just about every playstyle except for assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
They are amazing, mere men against the horrors of the galaxy, sirly english accents, awesome tanks and aircraft <3

They may be "mere men" but they can deploy more soldiers to a given battle than there are people on Planet Earth if need be and keep on funneling more soldiers at a rate higher than our planet's birth rate if the battle demands it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And they keep coming back for more.

You don't seem to grasp that all of those things you mentioned... Eldar, Orks, Tyranid, Daemons and Space Marines, are all super-human space monsters (even the Space Marines).

And yet, the IG goes out to fight them, every day, being just regular people.

*That* is what makes the IG a cool faction for a lot of players.

By that logic, Elliot Stabler is cooler than Robocop.

While I think Stabler delves a bit too much into being pretty much revenge-porn incarnate with regards to the pedophile witch hunt, he is pretty cool overall.

 Kain wrote:

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
They are amazing, mere men against the horrors of the galaxy, sirly english accents, awesome tanks and aircraft <3

They may be "mere men" but they can deploy more soldiers to a given battle than there are people on Planet Earth if need be and keep on funneling more soldiers at a rate higher than our planet's birth rate if the battle demands it.

Yes they can all be thrown into a meat grinder, but it is the mere men that are doing the work. Each and everyone of them is a person, the Joe from down the road. Those mere men are forced to fight the horrors.

 Kain wrote:
Ergo, Special forces with all their training and gear and what not that makes them substantially better at their jobs than most people ever can hope to be (a lot of the people will never meet the requirements no matter how much they train for it due to a less than favorable combination of genes), are not real heroes.

Not compared to a non-specops that does the same thing, no.

But Space Marines are beyond that, even. Regular human specops are far more heroic than Space Marines.

 Insane Smile wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
They are amazing, mere men against the horrors of the galaxy, sirly english accents, awesome tanks and aircraft <3

They may be "mere men" but they can deploy more soldiers to a given battle than there are people on Planet Earth if need be and keep on funneling more soldiers at a rate higher than our planet's birth rate if the battle demands it.

Yes they can all be thrown into a meat grinder, but it is the mere men that are doing the work. Each and everyone of them is a person, the Joe from down the road. Those mere men are forced to fight the horrors.

Honestly if I had the soldiers to do it, I'd totally try smothering a planet in guardsmen. No guns, just dumping Imperial citizens out of shuttles until the enemy was crushed beneath their body mass.

For the Lulz.

 Insane Smile wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
They are amazing, mere men against the horrors of the galaxy, sirly english accents, awesome tanks and aircraft <3

They may be "mere men" but they can deploy more soldiers to a given battle than there are people on Planet Earth if need be and keep on funneling more soldiers at a rate higher than our planet's birth rate if the battle demands it.

Yes they can all be thrown into a meat grinder, but it is the mere men that are doing the work. Each and everyone of them is a person, the Joe from down the road. Those mere men are forced to fight the horrors.

I dunno, but I'm pretty sure that Joe from down the road would barely fit for a conscript.

IMHO, Guardsmen are anything but ordinary people. They are the best humanity has to offer with each of them being more than capable to face the superhuman horrors of the galaxy. They are the USCM from the Aliens movies: the badass hoooorah oscar-mike space soldiers. They have guns that shoot SCIENCE, they have ordnance that can deliver its payload from a continent away, they have missiles that tear the fabric of reality into pieces and they can deploy enough boots and threads on the ground to drown their opponents into a unrelenting wave of steel and flesh.

I think the biggest magic of the Imperial Guard is that they are easiest power fantasy material. You don't have to comprehend superhuman viewpoints or LULascit technology - it is just guns, badassry, guns, manliness and even more guns. And at the end of the day, you can still have your excuse for playing the "mere men" instead of submerging into the deepest depths of raw sword&sorcery style power fantasy.

Guardsmen just seem so confused for me. People can't decide if they are the super-weak underdogs that nonetheless face the ridiculously overpowered horrors of the galaxy, and are heroic for it, or if they go around and easily wreck face with superior tanks and infantry that is not-that-inferior to Marines and Eldar.

It's as if people want the best of both worlds.

'Look how my very-weak-but-brave-and-therefore-likeable guys kick the butts of your Astartes without breaking a sweat! So much for Marines ololollololo'

If a meltagun, a twitchy trigger finger, and a smug smile is all it takes for a 'heroic' rampage and to take down some lovecraftian demigod, is the melta-dude they really that heroic?

++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

Ok,

Regular = (cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry) Otherwise known as the Imperial Guard.

Happy now

++End Transmission++

Alfonz wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

Ok,

Regular = (cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry) Otherwise known as the Imperial Guard.

Happy now

++End Transmission++

I'm just pointing out that technically, the Guard are pretty elite.

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

Ok,

Regular = (cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry) Otherwise known as the Imperial Guard.

Happy now

++End Transmission++

I'm just pointing out that technically, the Guard are pretty elite.

++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I Agree, Like i said, to be able to stand up against enemies, most of whome tower above you and not afraid to still fight them.
Pretty elite.

++End Transmission++

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

Well, modern infantry in WH40K has stormbolters, special armour design (not only PA of course), eldar hi-tech weapons etc. Modern infantry is genetically enhanced, walks path of warrior, has battlesuits. IG has flashlights, lucky ones got lascannon and the most badass meltas or can melt their own hands with plasma weapons And of course, very efficient flak armor

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

Well, modern infantry in WH40K has stormbolters, special armour design (not only PA of course), eldar hi-tech weapons etc. Modern infantry is genetically enhanced, walks path of warrior, has battlesuits. IG has flashlights, lucky ones got lascannon and the most badass meltas or can melt their own hands with plasma weapons And of course, very efficient flak armor

I meant our infantry, as in real life infantry.

Don't be cheeky with me,

 Kain wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

Well, modern infantry in WH40K has stormbolters, special armour design (not only PA of course), eldar hi-tech weapons etc. Modern infantry is genetically enhanced, walks path of warrior, has battlesuits. IG has flashlights, lucky ones got lascannon and the most badass meltas or can melt their own hands with plasma weapons And of course, very efficient flak armor

I meant our infantry, as in real life infantry.

Don't be cheeky with me,

Oh I didnt mean to disrespect you,mate. Its just.my style of friendly chatting about common theme
But I dont think that comparison with 20th century military isnt in place. You have to put their equipment into context of other imperial units and enemies. An that means that IG infantry is on the lowest levels.

 UlrikDecado wrote:
An that means that IG infantry is on the lowest levels.

No, that's the PDF. The IG is mid-ground at worst. Their tech level is actually pretty darn high since they use the same plasma/melta/SCIENCE weapons the others do but they don't have access to some of the most über-advanced tech because the scarce resources and general stupidity.

What I really like about the IG is that they quite nicely fill the holes I feel the CSM codex has, while it remains fluffy to have some traitor guardsmen on my side.

 Kain wrote:


I'm just pointing out that technically, the Guard are pretty elite.

Not when compared to, literally, every other army in the game they aren't. They are people armed with flashlights, dressed in cardboard armor, driving tractors with big guns.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Kain wrote:


I'm just pointing out that technically, the Guard are pretty elite.

Not when compared to, literally, every other army in the game they aren't. They are people armed with flashlights, dressed in cardboard armor, driving tractors with big guns.

I don't know of anyone who produces tanks that are overall superior to the Leman Russ. The Eldar and Tau have to compromise on armor, Chaos has to steal leman russ tanks or make do with inferior vehicles, the Ork vehicles are all inferior pound for pound, the Space Marines use weaker tanks, and the Tyranids, Dark Eldar and Necrons don't even use tanks.

 Kain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Kain wrote:


I'm just pointing out that technically, the Guard are pretty elite.

Not when compared to, literally, every other army in the game they aren't. They are people armed with flashlights, dressed in cardboard armor, driving tractors with big guns.

I don't know of anyone who produces tanks that are overall superior to the Leman Russ. The Eldar and Tau have to compromise on armor, Chaos has to steal leman russ tanks or make do with inferior vehicles, the Ork vehicles are all inferior pound for pound, the Space Marines use weaker tanks, and the Tyranids, Dark Eldar and Necrons don't even use tanks.

That doesn't change the fact that the Leman Russ is based on an STC for a tractor.

Suck it, Xenos, our farming equipment is better at war than your military hardware!

The thing that really kills the Guard for me are their vehicles. I much prefer the IFV/APC feel of Space Marines with their vehicles and the just the appearance of the Land Raider, and the cybernetic organisms the Chaos Space Marine employ (AKA, Daemon Engines). The Guard vehicles just on large feel either dull and bland or just look even worse. I love the Baneblade and it's variants, but I just hate the appearance of the Leman Russ and most of the other Guard vehicles. The only parts of the Guard I like are some variants of the Chimera, the Valkyrie, and Stormtroopers. If they released some more modernized vehicles, I'd certainly be enticed, it's just that nearly all of their design I find rather off-putting.

Modernized vehicles?

This is the Imperium we're talking about! If it was good enough 15,000 years ago, by the Throne, it's good enough for now!

 Wyzilla wrote:
The thing that really kills the Guard for me are their vehicles. I much prefer the IFV/APC feel of Space Marines with their vehicles and the just the appearance of the Land Raider, and the cybernetic organisms the Chaos Space Marine employ (AKA, Daemon Engines). The Guard vehicles just on large feel either dull and bland or just look even worse. I love the Baneblade and it's variants, but I just hate the appearance of the Leman Russ and most of the other Guard vehicles. The only parts of the Guard I like are some variants of the Chimera, the Valkyrie, and Stormtroopers. If they released some more modernized vehicles, I'd certainly be enticed, it's just that nearly all of their design I find rather off-putting.

The Imperial Guard's overall aesthetic for vehicle design is either early or pre-cold war with an emphasis on the world wars.

The Space Marines are Micheal Spark's wet dream of using the m113 in space for literally everything.

Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

A Royal Marine trains for 46 weeks before they're considered to have completed BASIC training. They then have to go off and do their specialty training on top of that. And while Royal Marines are considered to very good at what they do, they're regular infantry. Not special forces.

Sure, the Cadian's are trained from birth I'll grant you that, and perhaps the Vostroyans as well. But overall, these regiments are the exceptions, rather than the rule, in 40K fluff where the Guard are concerned.

What training did the Tanith receive before been thrown into a meat-grinder? Not 46 weeks let me tell you. The IG get as much drill time as the journey to the battlespace allows. That could be 3 months, it could be three days.

With the exception of the elite units from the fluff, most guardsmen have more in common with the WWII Russian infantry rushed to the front without sufficient training or equipment.

Way I see it, if you really want to bring in a modern comparison here (with the caveats that entails) then Imperial Guard are the equivalent to regular, first world infantry while the pdf are (for the most part) the equivalent of third world armies.

That's not to say that there aren't some kick-ass third world armies out there (the Nigerians and Kenyans for example, have some of the most battle-hardened, combat experienced sodiers you will ever come across, anywhere). It's their equipment and basic training, rather than their developed battle drills, which are crap.

Likewise, in 40K, while some pdf units are little more than pampered palace peacocks, some pdf's, especially those from worlds with an ork infestation (like Valhalla), are actually pretty decent. Even taking into account the cream being siphoned into the Guard.

P.S Special Ops soldiers, while extremely highly trained, are still ordinary human beings and not supermen. Ordinary beings that take on the most difficult tasks assigned to a modern soldier, but ordinary human beings nonetheless. Moreover, they're usually the first to tell you that what they do is rarely what can be called "heroic." There's nothing Heroic about sitting on your rear-end in a basha for 3 weeks, gaking in a bag and pissing into empty water bottles while watching a cave, house or abandoned lot that just "might" have something of interest in it. Nor is there anything especially heroic in splattering some guys brains all over a wall from 800 yards away. Or calling in an airstrike on a piece of real-estate that you know for certain has kids present just because some sleazy intel type thinks a "target of interest" could be in there. Yes, Special Ops guys are often called upon to do "heroic" things, especially hostage rescue. But it's a very dirty job. I've never yet many any who would describe themselves as "Heroic".

{Sorry for all the edits. I keep noticing spelling mistakes that are driving me crazy ]

 Wyzilla wrote:
I much prefer the IFV/APC feel of Space Marines

The M113 is not the only IFV/APC in the world.

Actually, the Chimera looks very much like an APC, the Canadian AVGP series if you put tracks on them. Which looks far cooler than an M113, and is also better in almost every way

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry. ETA: And, before people say, "It takes all of that discipline to stand up against the horrors of the galaxy!" they need to consider the fact that death is essentially death, and modern soldiers have willingly died in both of our recent wars in situations that make running into a Blade Storm look like fun.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

Place the American military at the battle of Maccragge and they'd have gotten slaughtered to a man without doing much of note while simultaneously pissing themselves in fear.

So much like the Ultramarines themselves.

But regardless, the American Army is built as more of an offensive force, rather than a defensive one, so I would hardly begrudge them that. They would be more equivalent to an IG light infantry regiment that then an IG line infantry regiment, judging based off of the stats for both of these in Only War.

An IG Line Infantry regiment is closer to WWII style infantry, while an IG Siege Infantry regiment is closer to WWI-- trench warfare style.

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

Place the American military at the battle of Maccragge and they'd have gotten slaughtered to a man without doing much of note while simultaneously pissing themselves in fear.

Usually when we make borderline insulting comments, we back them up with facts.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

Place the American military at the battle of Maccragge and they'd have gotten slaughtered to a man without doing much of note while simultaneously pissing themselves in fear.

Usually when we make borderline insulting comments, we back them up with facts.

The kind of enemies that the Imperium faces aren't the kind of enemies that our mindset are capable of handling. Chaos and Genestealers would destroy most religiously tolerant societies. The Necrons and Chaos can shut down tech-reliant societies with ease thanks to scrap code and malignant signals. The Tyranids attack virtually every point on a planet simultaneously with a constant rain of spores while coming in far greater numbers than you have munitions to deal with and rapidly adapt to your tactics on the fly.

The American military would be facing billions upon billions of fearless opponents with total space superiority that enacts a widespread sense of dread and terror with the shadow in the warp while simultaneously attacking from the ground, from below the ground, and from above. There would be no rest, no pause, none of the quirks of human psychology that the American military is used to exploiting to play against while the enemy certainly has demonstrated knowledge of how to exploit human psychology to sow terror and discord.

The Americans all die rapidly.

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

Place the American military at the battle of Maccragge and they'd have gotten slaughtered to a man without doing much of note while simultaneously pissing themselves in fear.

Usually when we make borderline insulting comments, we back them up with facts.

The kind of enemies that the Imperium faces aren't the kind of enemies that our mindset are capable of handling. Chaos and Genestealers would destroy most religiously tolerant societies. The Necrons and Chaos can shut down tech-reliant societies with ease thanks to scrap code and malignant signals. The Tyranids attack virtually every point on a planet simultaneously with a constant rain of spores while coming in far greater numbers than you have munitions to deal with and rapidly adapt to your tactics on the fly.

The American military would be facing billions upon billions of fearless opponents with total space superiority that enacts a widespread sense of dread and terror with the shadow in the warp while simultaneously attacking from the ground, from below the ground, and from above. There would be no rest, no pause, none of the quirks of human psychology that the American military is used to exploiting to play against while the enemy certainly has demonstrated knowledge of how to exploit human psychology to sow terror and discord.

The Americans all die rapidly.

You are describing situations in which Guardsmen die quickly too. We aren't talking about American society or equipment. We are talking about modern infantry, and the level of training they receive relative to Guardsmen.

My argument is that American soldiers have willingly jumped on grenades to save their friends. Guardsmen only stand and fight because if they run, they will be shot in the back by a commissar. As a military institution, they have very poor discipline.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

Place the American military at the battle of Maccragge and they'd have gotten slaughtered to a man without doing much of note while simultaneously pissing themselves in fear.

Usually when we make borderline insulting comments, we back them up with facts.

The kind of enemies that the Imperium faces aren't the kind of enemies that our mindset are capable of handling. Chaos and Genestealers would destroy most religiously tolerant societies. The Necrons and Chaos can shut down tech-reliant societies with ease thanks to scrap code and malignant signals. The Tyranids attack virtually every point on a planet simultaneously with a constant rain of spores while coming in far greater numbers than you have munitions to deal with and rapidly adapt to your tactics on the fly.

The American military would be facing billions upon billions of fearless opponents with total space superiority that enacts a widespread sense of dread and terror with the shadow in the warp while simultaneously attacking from the ground, from below the ground, and from above. There would be no rest, no pause, none of the quirks of human psychology that the American military is used to exploiting to play against while the enemy certainly has demonstrated knowledge of how to exploit human psychology to sow terror and discord.

The Americans all die rapidly.

You are describing situations in which Guardsmen die quickly too. We aren't talking about American society or equipment. We are talking about modern infantry, and the level of training they receive relative to Guardsmen.

My argument is that American soldiers have willingly jumped on grenades to save their friends. Guardsmen only stand and fight because if they run, they will be shot in the back by a commissar. As a military institution, they have very poor discipline.

The Imperial military fought and held at Maccragge despite the odds and died where they stood for the Imperium. The American military would have likely broken and routed had they replaced the guardsmen.

The commissars are necessary because of all the enemies who can do so much more to enact fear than anything ever historically seen on the battlefield. Some of them can break a man's will just for being observed. Others can snap apart morale with just a single thought.

Also, if you're going to cherry pick. For every ridiculous stereotype (Chenkov et al) you have the likes of the Tanith, the Death Korps of Krieg as a whole, or the Valhallan 597th who more or less are just as skilled and disciplined as any first world fighting force.

IG is popular for a few reasons.

1. Tanks. They have the coolest tanks.
2. In a world full of flying daemons, monstrous creatures that devour entire worlds, super humans with enhanced EVERYTHING, and space elves that can skin you alive and keep you that way for years, at the end of the day, the poor bastard holding the line is an 18 year old recruit with a lasgun and a pack of smokes.
3. Vendettas. I can't wait for the nerf bat!

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

Place the American military at the battle of Maccragge and they'd have gotten slaughtered to a man without doing much of note while simultaneously pissing themselves in fear.

Usually when we make borderline insulting comments, we back them up with facts.

The kind of enemies that the Imperium faces aren't the kind of enemies that our mindset are capable of handling. Chaos and Genestealers would destroy most religiously tolerant societies. The Necrons and Chaos can shut down tech-reliant societies with ease thanks to scrap code and malignant signals. The Tyranids attack virtually every point on a planet simultaneously with a constant rain of spores while coming in far greater numbers than you have munitions to deal with and rapidly adapt to your tactics on the fly.

The American military would be facing billions upon billions of fearless opponents with total space superiority that enacts a widespread sense of dread and terror with the shadow in the warp while simultaneously attacking from the ground, from below the ground, and from above. There would be no rest, no pause, none of the quirks of human psychology that the American military is used to exploiting to play against while the enemy certainly has demonstrated knowledge of how to exploit human psychology to sow terror and discord.

The Americans all die rapidly.

You are describing situations in which Guardsmen die quickly too. We aren't talking about American society or equipment. We are talking about modern infantry, and the level of training they receive relative to Guardsmen.

My argument is that American soldiers have willingly jumped on grenades to save their friends. Guardsmen only stand and fight because if they run, they will be shot in the back by a commissar. As a military institution, they have very poor discipline.

The Imperial military fought and held at Maccragge despite the odds and died where they stood for the Imperium. The American military would have likely broken and routed had they replaced the guardsmen.

The commissars are necessary because of all the enemies who can do so much more to enact fear than anything ever historically seen on the battlefield. Some of them can break a man's will just for being observed. Others can snap apart morale with just a single thought.

Also, if you're going to cherry pick. For every ridiculous stereotype (Chenkov et al) you have the likes of the Tanith, the Death Korps of Krieg as a whole, or the Valhallan 597th who more or less are just as skilled and disciplined as any first world fighting force.

Aaaaaand no.

Death is death. Again, modern Western soldiers (not just Americans) have held in horribly desperate situations. They have run into a wall of bullets and died willingly. They have bayonet charged superior forces once they've exhausted their ammunition. It's more common in Eastern armies of course, but "modern infantry" have strapped explosives to themselves and blown themselves up for strategic reasons.

I'm not seeing this disparity of courage at all.

The Death Korps are not equivalent to a modern army. They line up and march into battle in the style of WWI soldiers. Bit like he WWII Russian conscripts we mentioned earlier. The Death Korps are an even bigger stereotype than Chenkov.

Even the Tanith don't fight in a modern style. 30 plus platoons? No company level organisation? No Regimental level leadership? Gaunt is a crap commanding officer. He leads individual platoons into battle, leaving the other rest of the regiment to fight on it's own without any level of command and control. There's almost no coordination, no pre-battle planning. In anything, the Tanith fight more like Celts than a modern army.

[Edit: So even though they are portrayed as "elite" in the fiction, in reality the Tanith are pretty much a rabble. They do use reasonably modern tactics, but implement them in a fundamentally flawed way]

The Valhallan's from the Gaunt books fight in the way closest to modern infantry out of the three you mentioned.

And with regards to the modern American army at mcragge? Well yes, they would die. But so would any other modern army. Modern tactics, strategy and equipment procurement are all planned with an eye to fighting HUMAN opponents. NATO uses the 5.56mm round, for example, because it is more likely to wound the target than kill it. Thereby forcing the human enemy to divert manpower and resources to evacuating the casualty from the battlefield and providing medical treatment thereafter. The goal being to overload the enemy supply lines.

No modern army would be able to stand up to the like of Nids. That doesn't mean Guardsmen are better or braver than modern soldiers because they can fight (and die) against Nids. It just means that their equipment is better suited to fight against Nids and have learned from experience how best to fight them.

No modern army would have such experience, which means that no real world army would be able to stand against them. Moreover, no real world army would survive long enough to adapt their tactics against them. Whereas in 40K, the IG have eventually learned what works, albiet at the cost of billions of lives.

I know it's ludicrous that we're theorizing about what would happen if a fictional alien race from a wargame attacked earth, but that's where this conversation has led us.

Incidentally, your analogy falls flat in another way: in the fiction, the non marine defenders of Macragge were slaughtered as well.

Funny that you mention that, because Tanith was, basically, Planet Scot-Ireland. They even speak a Gaelic-like native language, and have a whole lotta Micks on the roster.

NATO uses the 5.56mm round, for example, because it is more likely to wound the target than kill

Actually, no. It is intended for maximum lethality in most situations. It is, in fact, against NATO regulations to develop weapons that maim and injure as a core concept of their deployment, rather than a potential side-effect. NATO would rather have dead soldiers than tens of thousands of maimed veterans.

What NATO says a weapon is designed to do, and what it actually does (and ultimately, what it is used for) are very, very different things.

Many NATO member states have officially banned the use of anti-personnel Land Mines by their armed forces. However, many of these same counties continue to use Claymores. These same countries are very careful to ensure that these devices are never officially described as "Land Mines" in military or political documents.

That being said, it's only fair to point out that Claymore are generally command detonated mines, rather than mines that explode when some un-suspecting civilian or animal walks on them.

[Edit: Also bear in mind that 5.56mm was adopted during the cold war, before poitical correctness and so became an issue. I'm a bit rusty on my NATO policy, but I believe the statement you quoted post-dates the argument for adopting 5.56mm in favor of the old Nato 7.62mm round.]

That doesn't change the fact that the 5.56 is an incredibly lethal round.

The whole tumbling effect, blah blah, yadda yadda enhances lethality. It's a function of its design (because, 40+ years ago, it didn't do this and had a habit of blowing right through someone and they didn't even know they'd been shot, sometimes for several minutes.)

OT, I should point out that, if you are going to compare a modern military to a 40K one, you have to update the modern military to be geared on par with the 40K army. A modern army, magically transported into 40K, would be fethed for a number of reasons, one being no defense against space craft, another being no immunity to xenobacterial infections, yet another being the fact that they just got transported through space and time, and also the fact that Low Gothic is not English. There would be serious communication barriers. Plus, you know, the US Army is not very big compared to the IG.

 Psienesis wrote:
That doesn't change the fact that the 5.56 is an incredibly lethal round.

The whole tumbling effect, blah blah, yadda yadda enhances lethality. It's a function of its design (because, 40+ years ago, it didn't do this and had a habit of blowing right through someone and they didn't even know they'd been shot, sometimes for several minutes.)

OT, I should point out that, if you are going to compare a modern military to a 40K one, you have to update the modern military to be geared on par with the 40K army. A modern army, magically transported into 40K, would be fethed for a number of reasons, one being no defense against space craft, another being no immunity to xenobacterial infections, yet another being the fact that they just got transported through space and time, and also the fact that Low Gothic is not English. There would be serious communication barriers. Plus, you know, the US Army is not very big compared to the IG.

Yes, but as recently as the 90's, 5.56 rounds were still going through guys with barely noticeable effect. Granted I think those were the teflon tipped versions designed to defeat body armour, but yeah, we're getting way off topic. Totally agree with your second paragraph.

 LeadLegion wrote:
What NATO says a weapon is designed to do, and what it actually does (and ultimately, what it is used for) are very, very different things.

NATO forces no longer use land-mines, for example. Which is why the Claymore is officially no longer designated as a "land-mine".

That whole "designed to wound" thing comes from a confusion between the M16 rifle and the M16 APERS landmine, and it's 100% confusion. The field manual section for the APERS mine says that it's designed to injure rather than kill. People read "M16" and think it's referring to the rifle.

5.56x45 is designed to be lighter and produce less recoil than 7.62x51. Lethality was not a major design consideration one way or the other, beyond both rounds' ability to penetrate steel helmets at extended ranges (hence why NATO mostly uses SS109 / M855 now).

The whole "5.56 doesn't kill people" thing is nothing new. Grandpa was saying that his M1 Carbine was bouncing rounds off of icy clothing in the Korean War. Grandpa was missing, and so are most people who complain about 5.56.

I came to talk about IG. I left when people started talking about NATO and land mines and bullets.

Lame.

And at least, here in Canada, we can only use remote triggered Claymores, not wire trips and whatnot.

 kronk wrote:
I came to talk about IG. I left when people started talking about NATO and land mines and bullets.

Lame.

And yet you stayed long enough to post that. Bless your heart.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

Place the American military at the battle of Maccragge and they'd have gotten slaughtered to a man without doing much of note while simultaneously pissing themselves in fear.

Usually when we make borderline insulting comments, we back them up with facts.

The kind of enemies that the Imperium faces aren't the kind of enemies that our mindset are capable of handling. Chaos and Genestealers would destroy most religiously tolerant societies. The Necrons and Chaos can shut down tech-reliant societies with ease thanks to scrap code and malignant signals. The Tyranids attack virtually every point on a planet simultaneously with a constant rain of spores while coming in far greater numbers than you have munitions to deal with and rapidly adapt to your tactics on the fly.

The American military would be facing billions upon billions of fearless opponents with total space superiority that enacts a widespread sense of dread and terror with the shadow in the warp while simultaneously attacking from the ground, from below the ground, and from above. There would be no rest, no pause, none of the quirks of human psychology that the American military is used to exploiting to play against while the enemy certainly has demonstrated knowledge of how to exploit human psychology to sow terror and discord.

The Americans all die rapidly.

You are describing situations in which Guardsmen die quickly too. We aren't talking about American society or equipment. We are talking about modern infantry, and the level of training they receive relative to Guardsmen.

My argument is that American soldiers have willingly jumped on grenades to save their friends. Guardsmen only stand and fight because if they run, they will be shot in the back by a commissar. As a military institution, they have very poor discipline.

The Imperial military fought and held at Maccragge despite the odds and died where they stood for the Imperium. The American military would have likely broken and routed had they replaced the guardsmen.

The commissars are necessary because of all the enemies who can do so much more to enact fear than anything ever historically seen on the battlefield. Some of them can break a man's will just for being observed. Others can snap apart morale with just a single thought.

Also, if you're going to cherry pick. For every ridiculous stereotype (Chenkov et al) you have the likes of the Tanith, the Death Korps of Krieg as a whole, or the Valhallan 597th who more or less are just as skilled and disciplined as any first world fighting force.

Aaaaaand no.

Death is death. Again, modern Western soldiers (not just Americans) have held in horribly desperate situations. They have run into a wall of bullets and died willingly. They have bayonet charged superior forces once they've exhausted their ammunition. It's more common in Eastern armies of course, but "modern infantry" have strapped explosives to themselves and blown themselves up for strategic reasons.

I'm not seeing this disparity of courage at all.

Modern foes shoot you.

Tyranids enjoy eating you alive and picking you apart like one disassembles a lego set while you're still alive- not to mention that they're also ten foot tall bugs that modern rounds would simply ping off harmlessly that fire organic weapons which ammo eats you alive from the inside out upon hitting you, all of which you experience. Once you see your best friend get ripped apart alive by gaunts and devoured or had thousands of tiny grubs devour their way outside of his body from a cluster of matter fired by a 30 foot tall super-bug, no modern human is going to be sticking around unless they're insane.

And of course, this isn't counting Orks, Daemons, Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Chaos Space Marines, against which the Imperium barely holds the line against with its infantry used these enemies often in danger of breaking formation and running for their lives.

A cluster of platoons from the American army would start running as fast as they could away from the Tyranids if they were dropped in the Guard's place- all they would care about is the giant reptilian bugs behind them blatantly defying the Square Cube law and murdering everything in their path. While they might hold the line against Gaunts, the big boys like Raveners, Lictors, Carnifexes, Tervigons, or even a Hive Tyrant? I'd doubt it.

 kronk wrote:
I came to talk about IG. I left when people started talking about NATO and land mines and bullets.

Lame.

Agreed. If you want to talk US troopers take it to the OT or have it as a discussion scenario. This is a thread about the greatness of Ollanius Pius and his trillion best friends.

Guard. Why do we like the guard?
They're always getting slaughtered in the fluff until they get ticked off and send 50,000 tanks in your general direction backed by artillery and missiles from miles or continents away.

To the xenos they're not pretty. They're not precise. They're Guard. Now prepare to die.

 Frazzled wrote:

 kronk wrote:
I came to talk about IG. I left when people started talking about NATO and land mines and bullets.

Lame.

Agreed. If you want to talk US troopers take it to the OT or have it as a discussion scenario. This is a thread about the greatness of Ollanius Pius and his trillion best friends.

You do know that Pius was in fact an immortal demi-god, right?

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 kronk wrote:
I came to talk about IG. I left when people started talking about NATO and land mines and bullets.

Lame.

Agreed. If you want to talk US troopers take it to the OT or have it as a discussion scenario. This is a thread about the greatness of Ollanius Pius and his trillion best friends.

You do know that Pius was in fact an immortal demi-god, right?

No, no he was not.

I don't give a feth what some BL novel says, he was just a dude, and has been just a dude for 20-some years of the setting and, as far as I'm concerned, remains just a dude to this very day.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 kronk wrote:
I came to talk about IG. I left when people started talking about NATO and land mines and bullets.

Lame.

Agreed. If you want to talk US troopers take it to the OT or have it as a discussion scenario. This is a thread about the greatness of Ollanius Pius and his trillion best friends.

You do know that Pius was in fact an immortal demi-god, right?

Well we're just have to bomb your planet for 500 years for such insolence...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I don't give a feth what some BL novel says, he was just a dude, and has been just a dude for 20-some years of the setting and, as far as I'm concerned, remains just a dude to this very day.

Exactly. I have underwear older then that writer. Underwear that remembers when Pius stood up like a man and changed history.

All Hail Ollanius Pius! All Hail the Guard! Now fire a 21 million gun salute.

To add to Wyzilla's statements.... Orks, whilst they seem funny to many of us, a brutal, savage, and cruel. They will tank shots by the dozens and even a missing limb or two won't phase them. They will blindly fire before crashing into you yanking your limbs off with their arms and smashing your skulls with a backhanded swing of their orky green biceps. Meteorites plummet from the skies, crashing to the ground flames incenerating men whilst the orks jump out hacking their way through as ramshackle vehicles drive around madly spikes ramming into humans making a delicious meaty shield to take a blast impact. Blow up the vehicle? Yay the just got flung closer to you! The warboss advances gun a blazing as he emits a loud WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH before reaching you and rending you with a giagant power claw that makes you into delicious bits.

Daemons? Feel the whispers... the screams the anguish within your head. What you see is not there but your mind attempting to put reason to something not there. Suddenly a tear opens before you and a blade lunges out scewering you, you are lifted into the air by an incorporeal form as your flesh changes tentacles writhing out from your limbs your eyes drifting outwards. Elsewhere a sniper fires a shot hoping to kill a daemon. At the last second though.... the daemon phases in and out of reality flickering for a moment appearing suddenly even closer the bullet long missing its target. Weird, morphing, blobs of pink unleash fireworks of light. One hits your best friend turning them into statue, another screaming bone, and another into water. Flamers of Tzeentch roll up burning guardsman into multiple shapes contorting, flexing, mutating. Little gribblies run at you leaping up to hug you before exploding into disease all the while large beasts lumber at you attempting to play with you as if they were a dug but only crushing you under their rolling. Psykers scream out as their body rends apart into a portal surrounded by a door edge of bloodied flesh as a hulking monstrosity clambers out the entire world quaking tectonic rifts shaking the planet screamers swirling in the sky screaming guardsman's ears popping and bleeding. Agile beasts run quicker than the eye can keep up soon reaching to you, an alluring, tempting form, you feel a gush of blood from your waste to see claws snapping you in half like scissors the whispers calling.... oh masters I shall serve you..... you whisper aiming your gun at a fellow guardsman and setting fire to them.

Necrons walk forth in waves of emotionless, robotic horrors glowing guns that can penetrate even the best armor. They have no feelings, just robotic cold heartless drives that push them forth. You fire at them, they fall, and then they get back up slowly reassembling or simply crawling onwards.

Dark Eldar careen out skulls, heads, the scream of slaves on ships as they plummet forth tormenting machines mobile that flay, strip, chain, and stab into you filling you with drug and agony before spinning you into nothing but meat. Your shadow suddenly stands up stabbing you with a blade as you plummet to the floor.

CSM charge at you, the marines that have betrayed you. They come with many allies, renegades, mutants, gribbling hulking mutated spawn that do not fear your shots charging through them as they eternally twist roil and mutate. Artillery falls upon you whilst psychic volleys fly out blowing up tanks in horrifically large proportions whilst machines that are the form of devils charge around ripping, tearings, burning all that is in their way.


But I think honestly that's the charm in them. It doesn't mattr that they have awesome vehicles, it doesn't matter if they are better trained or worse trained than American soldiers. The charm is that in the end, they are only human. They fear, they fight, and often they want to run away but they fight onwards. They don't get all the crazy pointless and cool upgrades SM get. No, the standard guardsman gets some decent anti-grenade armor that whilst good against standard guns is worthless against most of the forces they will fight. Their lasgun? Actually a pretty great invention! One problem, every enemy they fight has better guns and or more advanced armor. They are, be them trained to a great degree or not at all, simply human and that is what makes them awesome for even in the grimdark future, the heroics of a group of men can make a difference, no matter how small or minor... even if it haults the Imperium's demise by a single millisecond.

 StarTrotter wrote:
They don't get all the crazy pointless and cool upgrades SM get....

...or at least not as standard issue. Now, take your plasma gun son and burn those Orks with the power of SCIENCE !

 AtoMaki wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
They don't get all the crazy pointless and cool upgrades SM get....

...or at least not as standard issue. Now, take your plasma gun son and burn those Orks with the power of SCIENCE !

And don't forget to pray to its machine spirit

 StarTrotter wrote:
To add to Wyzilla's statements.... Orks, whilst they seem funny to many of us, a brutal, savage, and cruel. They will tank shots by the dozens and even a missing limb or two won't phase them. They will blindly fire before crashing into you yanking your limbs off with their arms and smashing your skulls with a backhanded swing of their orky green biceps. Meteorites plummet from the skies, crashing to the ground flames incenerating men whilst the orks jump out hacking their way through as ramshackle vehicles drive around madly spikes ramming into humans making a delicious meaty shield to take a blast impact. Blow up the vehicle? Yay the just got flung closer to you! The warboss advances gun a blazing as he emits a loud WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH before reaching you and rending you with a giagant power claw that makes you into delicious bits.

Daemons? Feel the whispers... the screams the anguish within your head. What you see is not there but your mind attempting to put reason to something not there. Suddenly a tear opens before you and a blade lunges out scewering you, you are lifted into the air by an incorporeal form as your flesh changes tentacles writhing out from your limbs your eyes drifting outwards. Elsewhere a sniper fires a shot hoping to kill a daemon. At the last second though.... the daemon phases in and out of reality flickering for a moment appearing suddenly even closer the bullet long missing its target. Weird, morphing, blobs of pink unleash fireworks of light. One hits your best friend turning them into statue, another screaming bone, and another into water. Flamers of Tzeentch roll up burning guardsman into multiple shapes contorting, flexing, mutating. Little gribblies run at you leaping up to hug you before exploding into disease all the while large beasts lumber at you attempting to play with you as if they were a dug but only crushing you under their rolling. Psykers scream out as their body rends apart into a portal surrounded by a door edge of bloodied flesh as a hulking monstrosity clambers out the entire world quaking tectonic rifts shaking the planet screamers swirling in the sky screaming guardsman's ears popping and bleeding. Agile beasts run quicker than the eye can keep up soon reaching to you, an alluring, tempting form, you feel a gush of blood from your waste to see claws snapping you in half like scissors the whispers calling.... oh masters I shall serve you..... you whisper aiming your gun at a fellow guardsman and setting fire to them.

Necrons walk forth in waves of emotionless, robotic horrors glowing guns that can penetrate even the best armor. They have no feelings, just robotic cold heartless drives that push them forth. You fire at them, they fall, and then they get back up slowly reassembling or simply crawling onwards.

Dark Eldar careen out skulls, heads, the scream of slaves on ships as they plummet forth tormenting machines mobile that flay, strip, chain, and stab into you filling you with drug and agony before spinning you into nothing but meat. Your shadow suddenly stands up stabbing you with a blade as you plummet to the floor.

CSM charge at you, the marines that have betrayed you. They come with many allies, renegades, mutants, gribbling hulking mutated spawn that do not fear your shots charging through them as they eternally twist roil and mutate. Artillery falls upon you whilst psychic volleys fly out blowing up tanks in horrifically large proportions whilst machines that are the form of devils charge around ripping, tearings, burning all that is in their way.


But I think honestly that's the charm in them. It doesn't mattr that they have awesome vehicles, it doesn't matter if they are better trained or worse trained than American soldiers. The charm is that in the end, they are only human. They fear, they fight, and often they want to run away but they fight onwards. They don't get all the crazy pointless and cool upgrades SM get. No, the standard guardsman gets some decent anti-grenade armor that whilst good against standard guns is worthless against most of the forces they will fight. Their lasgun? Actually a pretty great invention! One problem, every enemy they fight has better guns and or more advanced armor. They are, be them trained to a great degree or not at all, simply human and that is what makes them awesome for even in the grimdark future, the heroics of a group of men can make a difference, no matter how small or minor... even if it haults the Imperium's demise by a single millisecond.

I'm still unimpressed. Compare that to...



...an enemy that willingly straps bombs to itself, and its own children, to ensure your demise. This enemy has been known to inject adrenalin and other drugs to improve its combat potential. This enemy has a reputation for executing men, women, and children on camera by sawing off their heads with knives.

They aren't stupid like Orks or single-minded like Tyranids. They are pursuing biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons and have no qualms whatsoever about using them on you because, at the end of the day, they don't fear retaliation. They WANT to die.

Again, I'm not impressed by pretty space elves or their evil cousins. At least not enough so to see a real discrepancy in bravery of the types of people it takes to fight them. The only 40k factions I could see a human finding more frightening than another human are Daemons and maybe Tyranids, both of which roflstomp normal Guardsmen anyway.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
To add to Wyzilla's statements.... Orks, whilst they seem funny to many of us, a brutal, savage, and cruel. They will tank shots by the dozens and even a missing limb or two won't phase them. They will blindly fire before crashing into you yanking your limbs off with their arms and smashing your skulls with a backhanded swing of their orky green biceps. Meteorites plummet from the skies, crashing to the ground flames incenerating men whilst the orks jump out hacking their way through as ramshackle vehicles drive around madly spikes ramming into humans making a delicious meaty shield to take a blast impact. Blow up the vehicle? Yay the just got flung closer to you! The warboss advances gun a blazing as he emits a loud WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH before reaching you and rending you with a giagant power claw that makes you into delicious bits.

Daemons? Feel the whispers... the screams the anguish within your head. What you see is not there but your mind attempting to put reason to something not there. Suddenly a tear opens before you and a blade lunges out scewering you, you are lifted into the air by an incorporeal form as your flesh changes tentacles writhing out from your limbs your eyes drifting outwards. Elsewhere a sniper fires a shot hoping to kill a daemon. At the last second though.... the daemon phases in and out of reality flickering for a moment appearing suddenly even closer the bullet long missing its target. Weird, morphing, blobs of pink unleash fireworks of light. One hits your best friend turning them into statue, another screaming bone, and another into water. Flamers of Tzeentch roll up burning guardsman into multiple shapes contorting, flexing, mutating. Little gribblies run at you leaping up to hug you before exploding into disease all the while large beasts lumber at you attempting to play with you as if they were a dug but only crushing you under their rolling. Psykers scream out as their body rends apart into a portal surrounded by a door edge of bloodied flesh as a hulking monstrosity clambers out the entire world quaking tectonic rifts shaking the planet screamers swirling in the sky screaming guardsman's ears popping and bleeding. Agile beasts run quicker than the eye can keep up soon reaching to you, an alluring, tempting form, you feel a gush of blood from your waste to see claws snapping you in half like scissors the whispers calling.... oh masters I shall serve you..... you whisper aiming your gun at a fellow guardsman and setting fire to them.

Necrons walk forth in waves of emotionless, robotic horrors glowing guns that can penetrate even the best armor. They have no feelings, just robotic cold heartless drives that push them forth. You fire at them, they fall, and then they get back up slowly reassembling or simply crawling onwards.

Dark Eldar careen out skulls, heads, the scream of slaves on ships as they plummet forth tormenting machines mobile that flay, strip, chain, and stab into you filling you with drug and agony before spinning you into nothing but meat. Your shadow suddenly stands up stabbing you with a blade as you plummet to the floor.

CSM charge at you, the marines that have betrayed you. They come with many allies, renegades, mutants, gribbling hulking mutated spawn that do not fear your shots charging through them as they eternally twist roil and mutate. Artillery falls upon you whilst psychic volleys fly out blowing up tanks in horrifically large proportions whilst machines that are the form of devils charge around ripping, tearings, burning all that is in their way.


But I think honestly that's the charm in them. It doesn't mattr that they have awesome vehicles, it doesn't matter if they are better trained or worse trained than American soldiers. The charm is that in the end, they are only human. They fear, they fight, and often they want to run away but they fight onwards. They don't get all the crazy pointless and cool upgrades SM get. No, the standard guardsman gets some decent anti-grenade armor that whilst good against standard guns is worthless against most of the forces they will fight. Their lasgun? Actually a pretty great invention! One problem, every enemy they fight has better guns and or more advanced armor. They are, be them trained to a great degree or not at all, simply human and that is what makes them awesome for even in the grimdark future, the heroics of a group of men can make a difference, no matter how small or minor... even if it haults the Imperium's demise by a single millisecond.

I'm still unimpressed. Compare that to...



...an enemy that willingly straps bombs to itself, and its own children, to ensure your demise. This enemy has been known to inject adrenalin and other drugs to improve its combat potential. This enemy has a reputation for executing men, women, and children on camera by sawing off their heads with knives.

They aren't stupid like Orks or single-minded like Tyranids. They are pursuing biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons and have no qualms whatsoever about using them on you because, at the end of the day, they don't fear retaliation. They WANT to die.

Again, I'm not impressed by pretty space elves or their evil cousins. At least not enough so to see a real discrepancy in bravery of the types of people it takes to fight them. The only 40k factions I could see a human finding more frightening than another human are Daemons and maybe Tyranids, both of which roflstomp normal Guardsmen anyway.

Oh honestly I grabbed it to really bring the notion of the sights they fight are terrifying and to praise them for fighting onwards despite their inferior technology and high rates of attrition. Honestly DE are really more scary for what they do AFTER they drag you away and I really didn't even mention Eldar or Tau (although I suppose cannibal Kroots could be scary and carniverous mmmmm human flesh). Also an enemy strapping bombs to itself and children sounds very much like something chaos would love to do . Then again, also keep in mind the Imperium uses children soldiers sometimes apparently, likely has martyr bombers, and there are many regiments that inject adrenalin and other drugs to improve themself. Which is why I bring back to chaos being a terrifying force. Also keep in mind, in 40k, there will sometimes be rebellions that start because the lord doesn't want to watch his civilians suffer and die and the guardsman will be brought forth to slaughter all inhabatants the rest either being executed or shipped off as slaves of some sort. GRIMDARK!

So... Penal Legionnaires, then?

 Psienesis wrote:
So... Penal Legionnaires, then?

An entire planet of penal legionnaries! That fight alongside you

 AtoMaki wrote:


You do know that Pius was in fact an immortal demi-god, right?

AH!! HERESY *BLAM*.



In all fairness though, I believe the decision to make him immortal was down to the series editor, not any of the authors themselves

[edit to add spoiler window].

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
To add to Wyzilla's statements.... Orks, whilst they seem funny to many of us, a brutal, savage, and cruel. They will tank shots by the dozens and even a missing limb or two won't phase them. They will blindly fire before crashing into you yanking your limbs off with their arms and smashing your skulls with a backhanded swing of their orky green biceps. Meteorites plummet from the skies, crashing to the ground flames incenerating men whilst the orks jump out hacking their way through as ramshackle vehicles drive around madly spikes ramming into humans making a delicious meaty shield to take a blast impact. Blow up the vehicle? Yay the just got flung closer to you! The warboss advances gun a blazing as he emits a loud WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH before reaching you and rending you with a giagant power claw that makes you into delicious bits.

Daemons? Feel the whispers... the screams the anguish within your head. What you see is not there but your mind attempting to put reason to something not there. Suddenly a tear opens before you and a blade lunges out scewering you, you are lifted into the air by an incorporeal form as your flesh changes tentacles writhing out from your limbs your eyes drifting outwards. Elsewhere a sniper fires a shot hoping to kill a daemon. At the last second though.... the daemon phases in and out of reality flickering for a moment appearing suddenly even closer the bullet long missing its target. Weird, morphing, blobs of pink unleash fireworks of light. One hits your best friend turning them into statue, another screaming bone, and another into water. Flamers of Tzeentch roll up burning guardsman into multiple shapes contorting, flexing, mutating. Little gribblies run at you leaping up to hug you before exploding into disease all the while large beasts lumber at you attempting to play with you as if they were a dug but only crushing you under their rolling. Psykers scream out as their body rends apart into a portal surrounded by a door edge of bloodied flesh as a hulking monstrosity clambers out the entire world quaking tectonic rifts shaking the planet screamers swirling in the sky screaming guardsman's ears popping and bleeding. Agile beasts run quicker than the eye can keep up soon reaching to you, an alluring, tempting form, you feel a gush of blood from your waste to see claws snapping you in half like scissors the whispers calling.... oh masters I shall serve you..... you whisper aiming your gun at a fellow guardsman and setting fire to them.

Necrons walk forth in waves of emotionless, robotic horrors glowing guns that can penetrate even the best armor. They have no feelings, just robotic cold heartless drives that push them forth. You fire at them, they fall, and then they get back up slowly reassembling or simply crawling onwards.

Dark Eldar careen out skulls, heads, the scream of slaves on ships as they plummet forth tormenting machines mobile that flay, strip, chain, and stab into you filling you with drug and agony before spinning you into nothing but meat. Your shadow suddenly stands up stabbing you with a blade as you plummet to the floor.

CSM charge at you, the marines that have betrayed you. They come with many allies, renegades, mutants, gribbling hulking mutated spawn that do not fear your shots charging through them as they eternally twist roil and mutate. Artillery falls upon you whilst psychic volleys fly out blowing up tanks in horrifically large proportions whilst machines that are the form of devils charge around ripping, tearings, burning all that is in their way.


But I think honestly that's the charm in them. It doesn't mattr that they have awesome vehicles, it doesn't matter if they are better trained or worse trained than American soldiers. The charm is that in the end, they are only human. They fear, they fight, and often they want to run away but they fight onwards. They don't get all the crazy pointless and cool upgrades SM get. No, the standard guardsman gets some decent anti-grenade armor that whilst good against standard guns is worthless against most of the forces they will fight. Their lasgun? Actually a pretty great invention! One problem, every enemy they fight has better guns and or more advanced armor. They are, be them trained to a great degree or not at all, simply human and that is what makes them awesome for even in the grimdark future, the heroics of a group of men can make a difference, no matter how small or minor... even if it haults the Imperium's demise by a single millisecond.

I'm still unimpressed. Compare that to...



...an enemy that willingly straps bombs to itself, and its own children, to ensure your demise. This enemy has been known to inject adrenalin and other drugs to improve its combat potential. This enemy has a reputation for executing men, women, and children on camera by sawing off their heads with knives.

They aren't stupid like Orks or single-minded like Tyranids. They are pursuing biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons and have no qualms whatsoever about using them on you because, at the end of the day, they don't fear retaliation. They WANT to die.

Again, I'm not impressed by pretty space elves or their evil cousins. At least not enough so to see a real discrepancy in bravery of the types of people it takes to fight them. The only 40k factions I could see a human finding more frightening than another human are Daemons and maybe Tyranids, both of which roflstomp normal Guardsmen anyway.

There's a difference between fighting a human enemy and suddenly being dropped into a situation where humans are no longer the top predator and your instincts are kicking in to run like hell from the gigantic endless swarms of bugs.

And there's Orks, who butcher men, women, and children with their endless hordes not because of ideology or beliefs, but because it's fun.

Laughing! Laughing whilst ripping you apart maybe even using your limbs' bones to pick their teeth!

an enemy that willingly straps bombs to itself, and its own children, to ensure your demise. This enemy has been known to inject adrenalin and other drugs to improve its combat potential This enemy has a reputation for executing men, women, and children on camera by sawing off their heads with knives.

That is hardly anything new or special considering any form of conflict outside of spec ops hit and run type of missions.

And there's Orks, who butcher men, women, and children with their endless hordes not because of ideology or beliefs, but because it's fun.

Actualy killing civilians is not much fun for orks , at least not till they start to fight. They kill civilians , because they are omnivores , they burn ton of calories and durning the waagghh when they have their huge growth spikes they need lot of biomass to accomplish that . w40k walmarts seem to be too small to feed them .

...an enemy that willingly straps bombs to itself, and its own children, to ensure your demise. This enemy has been known to inject adrenalin and other drugs to improve its combat potential. This enemy has a reputation for executing men, women, and children on camera by sawing off their heads with knives.

They aren't stupid like Orks or single-minded like Tyranids. They are pursuing biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons and have no qualms whatsoever about using them on you because, at the end of the day, they don't fear retaliation. They WANT to die.

Again, I'm not impressed by pretty space elves or their evil cousins. At least not enough so to see a real discrepancy in bravery of the types of people it takes to fight them. The only 40k factions I could see a human finding more frightening than another human are Daemons and maybe Tyranids, both of which roflstomp normal Guardsmen anyway.

Apart from the rampant Islamophobia presented here, nothing in this list holds a candle to what people in 40K will do.

Honestly, whatever atrocity the orks or whatever can do, the humanity has done worse on itself at one point or the other in the course of our brief history. I think it's the aliens who should be afraid of humans. I mean, dark eldar torture people because if they don't a demon god will eat them. Humans would gladly torture dark eldar for a 1% revenue increase.

I don't play IG but I like them because you can make them what you want them to be.

A marine will always be a marine, but a guardsman can be a feral tribesman, an elite drop trooper, a grizzled city fighter, a blueblood aristocrat in his dress uniform or anything else that catches your imagination.

I personally had the idea of making an army of the Hyperion Corporation from Borderlands 2. Although with their ultra hi tech weaponry and loader walkers, they might be better suited to Tau.

For the debate between whether or not modern infantry would run away in terror in 40k:

Has anyone realised that much of what happens in warfare is a result of the human brain getting pumped so full of naturally produced chemicals that it just shuts off rational thought, resulting in unnaturally violent or altruistic tendencies in even the most stable person?

Somebody look up "Battle Trance" pls.

 Selym wrote:
For the debate between whether or not modern infantry would run away in terror in 40k:

Has anyone realised that much of what happens in warfare is a result of the human brain getting pumped so full of naturally produced chemicals that it just shuts off rational thought, resulting in unnaturally violent or altruistic tendencies in even the most stable person?

Somebody look up "Battle Trance" pls.

For the debate between whether or not modern infantry would run away in terror in 40k:

Has anyone realised that much of that discussion is entirely off topic and might lead to rage in some overly patriotic individuals which is completely hilarous, but not very useful for the topic at hand?

Somebody look up "OT forum" pls.

Honestly? If a Marine will always be a Marine, then a Guardsman will always be a Guardsman. If it doesn't matter if the Marine is a Crusader, a Guardian of a star system, a watcher observing a violent alien species, a robed mystic on the hunt of traitors or a mutated, potentially insane servant of brutal, careless gods, then it doesn't matter either what the Guardsman is. In the end he is just there to stand, potentially kill something and then die an unimaginably cruel way.

That said, while I play Orks, I can understand why humans love humans in most settings. With the most diverse morality of any race in any given setting, human characters can range from saints to devious scumbags and anything in between.

Also? The Imperial Guard is varied. Potentially more varied than any other faction. Pick a style you like and go building. I could come up with 5 different visual styles in less than 10 seconds and have a good fitting play style with it. While the same can be said for Orks, I am not quite sure if any other race in 40k can say that.

I know lots of folks said tanks already, so I'll just pile in and say tanks again just to be sure. Never can have too many wonderful wonderful tanks.