So I had this idea. As a necron I'm pretty set On anti air. But I have my aegis from my grey knights. And when I boxed it around the quad gun. I realised you can't see scarabs hidden behind it.

Is there something I'm missing. Scarabs firing quad guns into units. Sound cheese even for necrons

LOS for the quad gun is drawn from the eyes of the model firing it (the one placed in base contact), not from the gun. So If they can't see you, your are more than likely not going to be able to see them (flyers aside). You will get a cover save, but its not that great of an idea. Plus barrage just ruins your day....

 quickfuze wrote:
LOS for the quad gun is drawn from the eyes of the model firing it (the one placed in base contact), not from the gun. So If they can't see you, your are more than likely not going to be able to see them (flyers aside). You will get a cover save, but its not that great of an idea. Plus barrage just ruins your day....

What quickfuze said here. Scarabs can't fire the quadgun at ground units since they cannot see any units over the wall unless they get lucky with a flyer at the right angle.

This reminds me of the same question involving grots a month or two ago. There is a simple way around it. In your movement phase, move one scarab base in front of the quad gun, keep the others behind the line, it can now see and fire at other units. If the opponent fires at the unit - whoop de do, they can only take off 15pts.
The downsides are - 1.) barrage and 2.) You are investing in a scarab swarm that will be unable to do anything other than fire a quad gun since they have no ranged attacks of their own.

People use ADLs to hide scarabs all the time.

Read: Scarb Farms.

I think hes intrested about shooting the quad primarily... not hiding the scarabs.

Now here's a question: If scarabs fire the Quad Gun/IC do they still get their Entropic Strike with hits?

Now here's a question: If scarabs fire the Quad Gun/IC do they still get their Entropic Strike with hits?

Mind = blown

McBain wrote:
Now here's a question: If scarabs fire the Quad Gun/IC do they still get their Entropic Strike with hits?

Mother of Cheese!

Interesting thought. I cant remember the wording on the ES rule, so ill check that when i get home.

Yes, the scarabs 'entropic strike' applies to the quad gun. As the entropic strike rule mentions hits caused by a model with the rule, it doesn't differentiate between ranged and close combat attacks.

Does it mention anything about 'in the assault phase' at all?

Hmm.

No, it does not.

You dug for gold and found diamonds!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dual foc. 2 quad guns, av12 stormraven suddenly becomes av 9! Av14 landraider suddenly becomes av11... woah!


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AND since pen rolls happen after ES roll... haha!

What have you all done.....this is madness, madness!

NO NO NO NO NO NO STOP! STOP, QUIT THIS THREAD RIGHT NOW! NOOOOOOOO

Wat

That is like... Ehh... Does not make a lot of sense to me.

This is... awesome. You can man the quad gun while on an elevated piece of area terrain. Knock a wound of a riptide then tesla it to death.

Unless swarms can't man fortifications or something.

I've never seen something break in this game right before my eyes, well done sir, well done

O.M.G.
You are brilliant. So instead of a defense line, you take a bastion and man the quad guns and heavy bolters with scarabs.

So I'm taking this to the logical extreme, in apoc or stronghold you can take the punisher Gatling cannon which drops 20 shots, hello av5 Titan

20 shots, about 7 hit, 3-4 remove hullpoints? Not too bad. SOOOOO tempting to try this for the "lulz" but ill have to make sure my opponent knows im trying something really stupid. To just spring this evil upon someone, you would have to be one cold blooded monster. Though I don't think any fortification I know about can have a "manned" punisher gatling.

Jakobokaj wrote:
So I'm taking this to the logical extreme, in apoc or stronghold you can take the punisher Gatling cannon which drops 20 shots, hello av5 Titan

Superheavies cannot have their AV lowered, if I am remembering right. Scarabs are also only bs2, which means that your gun emplacement is barely better than a snapshot.

Drakmord wrote:

Jakobokaj wrote:
So I'm taking this to the logical extreme, in apoc or stronghold you can take the punisher Gatling cannon which drops 20 shots, hello av5 Titan

Superheavies cannot have their AV lowered, if I am remembering right. Scarabs are also only bs2, which means that your gun emplacement is barely better than a snapshot.

Now I'll step in with my gorgeous math.

BS2 with re-rolls = 55% chance. that means, you guessed it! 11 hits.

Snap shots would be 3 hits.

Quad gun hits twice.

Surely there's a unit that can take entropic strike that isn't BS2?

Everything else in-codex with Entropic Strike has it applied to CC attacks only. I'm pretty sure that acanthrites are the same, as they have void blades.

With the quad gun it's four shots twin linked at bs2...


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Ninjaed. And math hammered.

Just remember that Beasts ( I believe the scarabs are "beast swarm") cannot occupy buildings. So while I cant find anything preventing the ADL trick, I am pretty sure most of the rest is out.

Drakmord wrote:Everything else in-codex with Entropic Strike has it applied to CC attacks only. I'm pretty sure that acanthrites are the same, as they have void blades.

Entropic strike is a rule on the Scarabs, while a void blade makes me assume it's a wargear option?

Rules that come for wargear are specific to said wargear. Rules that come for unit are specific to said unit and anything that unit may use.

A skyfire gun must be shot as skyfire, but a character with skyfire shoots every weapon as if it had skyfire.

Kholzerino wrote:With the quad gun it's four shots twin linked at bs2...


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Ninjaed. And math hammered.

yeye.

quickfuze wrote:Just remember that Beasts ( I believe the scarabs are "beast swarm") cannot occupy buildings. So while I cant find anything preventing the ADL trick, I am pretty sure most of the rest is out.

Swarms is a special rule, so you are probably wrong. While scarabs may be beasts, nothing is stopping them occupying the top frame of a bastion, only entering it.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Drakmord wrote:Everything else in-codex with Entropic Strike has it applied to CC attacks only. I'm pretty sure that acanthrites are the same, as they have void blades.

Entropic strike is a rule on the Scarabs, while a void blade makes me assume it's a wargear option?

Rules that come for wargear are specific to said wargear. Rules that come for unit are specific to said unit and anything that unit may use.

A skyfire gun must be shot as skyfire, but a character with skyfire shoots every weapon as if it had skyfire.

Kholzerino wrote:With the quad gun it's four shots twin linked at bs2...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninjaed. And math hammered.

yeye.

quickfuze wrote:Just remember that Beasts ( I believe the scarabs are "beast swarm") cannot occupy buildings. So while I cant find anything preventing the ADL trick, I am pretty sure most of the rest is out.

Swarms is a special rule, so you are probably wrong. While scarabs may be beasts, nothing is stopping them occupying the top frame of a bastion, only entering it.

I was referring to the firing of the heavy bolters which requires the occupation of a building. I probably should have said quad gun instead of ADL.

Holy. Cow.

Well I'm glad others worked it out lol.

I was looking at it and thinking I've read it wrong.

But swarm. Doesn't make them beasts.
Entropic strike isn't wargear so it's the model.

So looking at it further.

Loose a scarab for los.

15pts vs stormraven 250ish..

My grade 3 maths certificate says I win

Barrage does ruin it a little. But los lol

So tau n tyranids don't use it against them

But everything else let's just say game over man game ovet

 quickfuze wrote:

I was referring to the firing of the heavy bolters which requires the occupation of a building. I probably should have said quad gun instead of ADL.

Except where said HB fire at BS 2 anyway, because of the automated fire special rule.

Scarabs are Beasts, and the BRB has nothing saying Beasts cannot occupy buildings. Swarms is the rule that gives additional wounds from template weapons, and again has nothing to stating it cannot hold buildings.

So I would say that even the bastion trick works, drawing line-of-sight out of the gun-holes while shooting the gun, as per the shooting from buildings rule.

C'tan are BS5 and can get Entropic Strike through one of their upgrades. Not sure on the wording of the power (it may say CC only) and I don't have my codex in front of me.

This is actually.... a very, very, very, very scary thought


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http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/8/14/258275_md-Gold%2C%20Necrons%2C%20Warhammer%2040%2C000.JPG

I decree you have found Necron Gold!

It is CC only, I thought of that one already XD

According to what? Reference?
I dont have a book handy to check it out

 IHateNids wrote:
Scarabs are Beasts, and the BRB has nothing saying Beasts cannot occupy buildings. Swarms is the rule that gives additional wounds from template weapons, and again has nothing to stating it cannot hold buildings.

So I would say that even the bastion trick works, drawing line-of-sight out of the gun-holes while shooting the gun, as per the shooting from buildings rule.

Actually pg 93 BRB for occupying buildings specifically states that only one Infantry[i] unit plus any attached IC can occupy a building at any time. Beasts cannot occupy buildings...they can go to the battlements during deployment due to "exterior ladders" and such.

Before we get carried away... has anyone checked the faq? I don't have it handy.

 quickfuze wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Scarabs are Beasts, and the BRB has nothing saying Beasts cannot occupy buildings. Swarms is the rule that gives additional wounds from template weapons, and again has nothing to stating it cannot hold buildings.

So I would say that even the bastion trick works, drawing line-of-sight out of the gun-holes while shooting the gun, as per the shooting from buildings rule.

Actually pg 93 BRB for occupying buildings specifically states that only one Infantry unit plus any attached IC can occupy a building at any time. Beasts cannot occupy buildings...they can go to the battlements during deployment due to "exterior ladders" and such.

Ah, I missed that bit

I've looked through the rulebook and through the errata and found nothing that says otherwise. It's why I decided to bring it to dakkadakka

I think I kinda like the absurdity of the scarabs on an ADL with a quad gun....im not sure how good they would be on top of bastion or what-have-you....how many bases can you actually fit up there? and how can you draw line of sight with them off the roof? I could see using elevated terrain with an ADL, but what would you do on top of a building?

The bastion idea is going to draw too much fire. Easy todestroy. The adl is small and neat and to get to it your gonna have to go thru a whole army to get to it

ES: Any model that suffers one or more Unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule.....

There is a difference between the model rules and the models shooting rules. Think fleshbane, or other abusive rules like Lelith. (pre-FaQ)

'Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armour save for the remainder of the battle (effectively altering its armour save to '-'). '

Reading it it does not say cc or shooting attacks. It refers to model.

'for each hit a vehicle suffers from a weapon or model with this special rule, roll a D6. For each result of 4+, it immediately loses 1 point of Armour value from all facings. if a vehicle is reduced to Armour 0 on any facing, it is immediately wrecked.

The rule does not specify so on that ground like all rules we take it at its most basic. Everything a scarab does is es

I've broken 40k *insert happy dance*

Okay here is another possible rules conflict. Under pg 105 of "Gun Emplacements" it states that a model in base contact with the gun "can fire it Instead[/u] of his own weapon". This could be read that a model must possess a shooting weapon in order to fire the quad gun. As you cant "fire" a CC weapon, he is not firing the quad gun instead of...lets say his claws; as he could not choose to shoot his claws if he wanted.

And you do not understand the difference between model and weapon. The Quad Gun would need to have the ES rule to affect the target.

Just like a model with Fleshbane, firing a quad gun does not wound on a 2+.

::Edit:: this should be in YMDC as well.

Fleshbane: models with this special rule always wound on 2+ in close combat. ranged weapons with this special rule also always wound on a 2+

Since it specifies close combat for models and quad is shooting its not applied

 ranged weapons with this special rule also always wound on a 2+

Since you are choosing to fire quad in place of the ranged weapon it's not applied.

Es does not specify cc or ranged so it's always applied.

Scarabs can run in shooting phase which means they can shoot.

 XdeadpoolX wrote:
Fleshbane: models with this special rule always wound on 2+ in close combat. ranged weapons with this special rule also always wound on a 2+

Since it specifies close combat for models and quad is shooting its not applied

 ranged weapons with this special rule also always wound on a 2+

Since you are choosing to fire quad in place of the ranged weapon it's not applied.

Es does not specify cc or ranged so it's always applied.

Scarabs can run in shooting phase which means they can shoot.

Exactly. Probably not RAI, but absolutely RAW.
If you want to discuss legality, take it to YMDC.

 XdeadpoolX wrote:
Fleshbane: models with this special rule always wound on 2+ in close combat. ranged weapons with this special rule also always wound on a 2+

Since it specifies close combat for models and quad is shooting its not applied

 ranged weapons with this special rule also always wound on a 2+

Since you are choosing to fire quad in place of the ranged weapon it's not applied.

Es does not specify cc or ranged so it's always applied.

Scarabs can run in shooting phase which means they can shoot.

The model is not causing the wound, the weapon is.

 XdeadpoolX wrote:
'Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armour save for the remainder of the battle (effectively altering its armour save to '-'). '

Reading it it does not say cc or shooting attacks. It refers to model.

'for each hit a vehicle suffers from a weapon or model with this special rule, roll a D6. For each result of 4+, it immediately loses 1 point of Armour value from all facings. if a vehicle is reduced to Armour 0 on any facing, it is immediately wrecked.

The rule does not specify so on that ground like all rules we take it at its most basic. Everything a scarab does is es

I've broken 40k *insert happy dance*

I wouldn't say that getting BS2 Entropic shots is broken. You're about as likely to pop a flyer without it, and while stripping down high AV in the field is helpful Necrons also have access to Gauss.

But it is an interesting tactic.

Both of you raise valid points. Im on the fence with that one now. Time for the court room methinks. "HELLO... MODS, MOOOOODS, CAN WE TAKE THIS THREAD TO YMDC PLEASE?"


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Think they heard me?

I'll start one over there if no one has yet.

Well the punisher cannon trick isn't going to fly, as its an option for a vengeance battery or a firestorm redoubt, both of which have a rule stating their weapons cannot be manually fired and always use the automated firing mode.

 Solosam47 wrote:
What have you all done.....this is madness, madness!

Madness?

THIS. IS. MANDRAGORA!!!!!!!

*Imotekh kick to the chest*

 Galorian wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:
What have you all done.....this is madness, madness!

Madness?

THIS. IS. MANDRAGORA!!!!!!!

*Imotekh kick to the chest*

Imotekh doesnt kick you in the chest, he cuts off your hand then sends you home embarrassed and with your pants on your head

Im not really sure about this...

I suggested earlier a slaanesh deamon prince with the whip range weapon. With the mark of slaanesh giving the model rending, the whip should have rending as well.
Bu the conclution at that time was that those rules only effects the melee attacks, and the range weapon has it own sets of rules.

Im sorry but I think you are pushing it too far here...

And to be honest I dont think it would be worth it either.

 Vombat wrote:
Im not really sure about this...

I suggested earlier a slaanesh deamon prince with the whip range weapon. With the mark of slaanesh giving the model rending, the whip should have rending as well.
Bu the conclution at that time was that those rules only effects the melee attacks, and the range weapon has it own sets of rules.

Im sorry but I think you are pushing it too far here...

And to be honest I dont think it would be worth it either.

I agree that its debateable as to whether it works. But I don't agree that it wouldn't be worth it.
Lets talk about two quad guns manned by scarabs shooting at a storm raven. Its gets between 2 to 3 hits. Lets say the 1st one hits two times. On average that is 1 av point stripped BEFORE pen rolls are made. You now have 2 st7 hits rolling to pen against av11. Second one shoots, lets be nice since we said two hit last time and say three hit this time, but to balance it out, lets say only 1 of the 3 hits strips an av point. Now you have three st7 rolls rolling to pen against av10.
Try buying anything else for under 300points that is as reliable against a stormraven before it even shoots, yet can still utterly destroy non flyers just as easily.

This idea is just so hilariously stupid and full of win that I have actually completely flip flopped my tourney list I'm gonna be using this weekend to include this silly combo because why not give the poor buggers some serious parmesan to chow down on while invalidating that DPs armour save or blowing up that land raider with a quad gun.

Scarabs are beasts. Beasts can't use the quad-gun. Or any emplaced weapons for that matter.

deathmagiks wrote:
Scarabs are beasts. Beasts can't use the quad-gun. Or any emplaced weapons for that matter.

I'd tend to agree with you, but with all the things they've pulled out to back themselves up with, it looks like RAW might be on their side this time.
(... unless you can quote/specify something that will invalidate their claims?).

deathmagiks wrote:
Scarabs are beasts. Beasts can't use the quad-gun. Or any emplaced weapons for that matter.

Says where? Emplaced weapons rules just say they can be fired by a model, and nowhere in the beast rules it mentions any restrictions about firing?

This whole concept is however stupid.

Agreed, this is a dumb abuse of RAW
...
but it might also give Necrons a 145 point solution to dealing with MCs at long distance (after all, provided the Scarabs manned Quad gun can manage to deal a single wound to the MC, it'll lose its armor save for the rest of the game, allowing Tesla Destructors to finish them off with ease).

Also it gives them very effective AA without needing to buy flyers or Annihilation Barges

Otto Weston wrote:
Also it gives them very effective AA without needing to buy flyers or Annihilation Barges

...
Why would any Necron player worth his dice not want to bring Annihilation Barges?

 skoffs wrote:

Otto Weston wrote:
Also it gives them very effective AA without needing to buy flyers or Annihilation Barges

...
Why would any Necron player worth his dice not want to bring Annihilation Barges?

They wouldnt take anni barges so they can buy more spyders to spawn more scarabs so they can have more bodies to keep using the quad gun!

Just imagine 40 of the little buggers swarming around the quad gun all waiting for their turn to kill a stormraven

Have the Nemesor give them Tank Hunters for that extra slice of grade A cheese.

 skoffs wrote:

Otto Weston wrote:
Also it gives them very effective AA without needing to buy flyers or Annihilation Barges

...
Why would any Necron player worth his dice not want to bring Annihilation Barges?

Well I play Necrons but I don't like using conventional/highly used units --

I use Flayed Ones, Doomsday Ark etc.

Scarabs fit right in then XD

So Destroyers give the Quad Gun 'Preferred Enemy: All' ?

 Chopper Greg wrote:
So Destroyers give the Quad Gun 'Preferred Enemy: All' ?

Of course.

Can't a C'tan Shard take Entropic Strike too? It'd be expensive, but better BS, right?

Lucarikx

Scarab Quad guns are clearly OP WAAC Cheese, I'm taking my WaveVesa spamstar and going home

 Lucarikx wrote:
Can't a C'tan Shard take Entropic Strike too? It'd be expensive, but better BS, right?

Lucarikx

Entropic for the C'tan, very specifically says-

Entopic Touch: The C'tan Shard's close combat attacks......

Hmm, let's say we're trying to take on a MC with the Scarab-Turret™ (to remove its armor via Entropic Strike).
Which ADL gun option would be more likely to wound it?
• Quad Gun (4 twinlinked shots, but can be armor saved)
• Las (can't be armor saved, but only 1 shot... at BS2, very high chance of missing).

Depends entirely on the MC being fired at. Is their armour better than the chance of you missing?

In other words, I'd rather ignore the Riptide's armour than probably make a couple of hits, which are very likely to be saved.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Depends entirely on the MC being fired at. Is their armour better than the chance of you missing?

In other words, I'd rather ignore the Riptide's armour than probably make a couple of hits, which are very likely to be saved.

True but the quad is much more universal since it can be applied to vehicles and lighter armoured MCs better (not sure on the mathhammers of a thing like a flyrant vs scarab-turret so it may end up being better than a icarus or it may not).

 A GumyBear wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Otto Weston wrote:
Also it gives them very effective AA without needing to buy flyers or Annihilation Barges

...
Why would any Necron player worth his dice not want to bring Annihilation Barges?

They wouldnt take anni barges so they can buy more spyders to spawn more scarabs so they can have more bodies to keep using the quad gun!

Just imagine 40 of the little buggers swarming around the quad gun all waiting for their turn to kill a stormraven

Okay, did somebody just make Necrons a dedicated horde army...?

 soomemafia wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Otto Weston wrote:
Also it gives them very effective AA without needing to buy flyers or Annihilation Barges

...
Why would any Necron player worth his dice not want to bring Annihilation Barges?

They wouldnt take anni barges so they can buy more spyders to spawn more scarabs so they can have more bodies to keep using the quad gun!

Just imagine 40 of the little buggers swarming around the quad gun all waiting for their turn to kill a stormraven

Okay, did somebody just make Necrons a dedicated horde army...?

I could have sworn the Scarab Farm tactic has been around for quite a while now.

 skoffs wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Otto Weston wrote:
Also it gives them very effective AA without needing to buy flyers or Annihilation Barges

...
Why would any Necron player worth his dice not want to bring Annihilation Barges?

They wouldnt take anni barges so they can buy more spyders to spawn more scarabs so they can have more bodies to keep using the quad gun!

Just imagine 40 of the little buggers swarming around the quad gun all waiting for their turn to kill a stormraven

Okay, did somebody just make Necrons a dedicated horde army...?

I could have sworn the Scarab Farm tactic has been around for quite a while now.

Well it's likely that I just haven't heard about that yet...

 soomemafia wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

Otto Weston wrote:
Also it gives them very effective AA without needing to buy flyers or Annihilation Barges

...
Why would any Necron player worth his dice not want to bring Annihilation Barges?

They wouldnt take anni barges so they can buy more spyders to spawn more scarabs so they can have more bodies to keep using the quad gun!

Just imagine 40 of the little buggers swarming around the quad gun all waiting for their turn to kill a stormraven

Okay, did somebody just make Necrons a dedicated horde army...?

I could have sworn the Scarab Farm tactic has been around for quite a while now.

Well it's likely that I just haven't heard about that yet...

Ya the scarab farm has been around since the release of the cron dex I think (so late 5th ed) also there is the silver sea for a hordey cron warrior spam that has been around since 3rd edition.

Ok, different army but very closely related stupid question time.

I have read the thread, and as much as I like Necrons, I like Tau just as much ( to bad they are not battle brothers ).

So what about putting a Tau, Sniper Drone Team around the Aegis, with the BS5 Firesight Marksmen next to the gun, and using the drones to peek over the wall?

The entire team gets a +1 to the cover save that the Aegis gives for Stealth, but my math hammer is not so good, so I'm not sure if it would be more advantageous to just snipe or use the gun.


Thoughts?

Well, with that you have the normal BS5 Sniper guns, and then a BS5 Quad Gun as well. (IIRC with a target lock so he can shoot elsewhere if you wish)

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Wat

That is like... Ehh... Does not make a lot of sense to me.

Obviously the scarabs jump down the barrels of the quad-gun and shoot themselves out.

As a new necron player looking to finally beat my snobby friend's imperial guard, this will be awesome. Can't wait to see his face. hehehehehehehehehe

 Pheonix Lord Asurmen wrote:
As a new necron player looking to finally beat my snobby friend's imperial guard, this will be awesome. Can't wait to see his face. hehehehehehehehehe

You were having trouble against IG?
With 'Crons?
...
Something tells me you should probably brush up on the basics on Necron anti-AV first, before you start resorting to cheese...

 XdeadpoolX wrote:
So I had this idea. As a necron I'm pretty set On anti air. But I have my aegis from my grey knights. And when I boxed it around the quad gun. I realised you can't see scarabs hidden behind it.

Is there something I'm missing. Scarabs firing quad guns into units. Sound cheese even for necrons

A better one is to put your objectives as far away from your deployment as possible. Hide your entire army of warriors (or other troops) behind your ADL and wait for the opponent to advance whilst snap shooting. Then when they get close enough veil out and lol.

Also.. use your flyers (min 3 of) to take out threat's like thunder fire cannons etc.. it really pressures them to advance with 3 x flyers.

 skoffs wrote:
Agreed, this is a dumb abuse of RAW
...

Agreed.

If someone pulled this one on me, I would straight up start packing my army up, clearly someone who would try this is not looking for a relaxed fun time imo..

While thus may be RAW I find it hugely questionable. Besides, who has a tough time killing a quad gun in reality? Shoot the gun people!

 Massaen wrote:
While thus may be RAW I find it hugely questionable. Besides, who has a tough time killing a quad gun in reality? Shoot the gun people!

You can't shoot the gun, only the models manning it.
And if you can't see the models because they're so low to the ground?
(hence broken)

you can shoot the gun. Its T7 2W 3+/4+cover

My mistake, was thinking of something else.
Regardless, anyone playing this combo would wear the brand of TFG from that day forward.