I know that we have had our share of difficulties int eh recent past but I am weathering the storm and powering my way through! We are nearly done with the fulfillment on both of the previous red box games kickstarters and now we are launching a new campaign to fund the production of a small set of Njorn Adventurers. We have 6 in all; Woldvagner vII, Bolverk vII, Ulfgar vII, Weglaf vII, Rollo, and Ragnar. These figures are already sculpted and mastered and ready fro production. All that is left is to fund the actual production of the production molds and the casting.




This is where your help is invaluable. The industry has changed dramatically. I can no longer afford the risk to produce these figures without knowing that the production is fully funded. In order to get these figures into production and available to my valued customers I have to make this funding goal. I know that my first kickstarter has severely stretched people's patience and confidence in my ability but I assure you that I will nto fail a second time and I will not let you down.
Your continued confidence and support is GREATLY appreciated and dearly needed. As always I thank you all for your support, your confidence and your enthusiasm. I do not take any of these things lightly.
So if you would like to see these figures funded please take a moment to visit the Kickstarter page and offer a pledge for one or more of these figures. The Production should be complete within a month and delviery will commence immediately upon delivery to me.
You can visit the project page at;http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1103158358/red-box-games-norse-warrior-miniatures" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1103158358/red-box-games-norse-warrior-miniatures
Cheers,

The sculpts look great, although I confess they're not really relevant to anything I have in the pipeline.

I actually just wanted to post and say kudos for holding up your hands and admitting things weren't perfect, I always find people far more understanding if you admit a mistake and show your desire to correct it than if you handwave everything away and pretend everything is fine.

Best of luck

Thanks! hah denying troubles does not fix them!

Hey Tre,

These figures look great, fantastic sculpting!

Do you think you could make an update on the original campaign, as on the last update from Dec 30th you said

In the next 4 days I expect to be able to give one final update as to the progress of production and the projected time of delivery for final fulfillment.

At this point, anything to finish that campaign (for example, asking backers to swap out a single item that you are out of stock on that is delaying their order shipping, for an item that you do have in stock) would be really good.

But mostly just seeing that update would be helpful, since it's about a week overdue. Since things really are supposed to be in the final stretch it should be easy to list out exactly what models and quantities you need to finish, and perhaps allow folks to swap out from those if they just want their box sent now.

It would really, really be good for everybody involved to tie a bow on that campaign and have it done. Simply saying you don't have the quantities isn't enough at this point... people need specifics and you should be able to provide them exactly what you have not been able to pack into the boxes.

I don't mean this negative at all and love the sculpts I got from buying out someone's pledge from that campaign. I wish this one all the best, and may even pledge... but there does need to be an update on that original campaign, and a clear list of what is left to finish it, along with the expected finish date. Specifically listing what packages are left to ship and what small items are missing from each would be even better.

Finally, if you are short a few of the dire wolves I am actually willing to send some of those to you from the pledge I received... just knowing exactly how many of each model you are short on to call that campaign DONE would help everybody, I think.

I actually just got off the phone with Ed who informs me he is on the way to the PO with the last box for me right now. This means that at logn last i can finish out the fulfillment of the first KS campaign and be done with it. I am working on the KS update right now.

I really like the upper right barbarian and would pick him up at retail even though I have no actual use for him (much like the other nice figs I've ordered at my FLGS from you). Lack of use plus delay history plus nebulous future shipping cost not included means that I'll get him at retail as well. The sculpting as always looks top notch!

While I do like the sculpts individually, seeing them like this lined up don't make 'em as exciting. It slightly bothers me that the poses are very similar to each other, making it feel like you've taken a very easy shortcut of making 'em.

However, individually, they look great!

My god.

STOP STARTING NEW CAMPAIGNS UNTIL THE PREVIOUS ONES ARE COMPLETE. PLEASE.

Don't keep splitting your time and energy. Finish what you started before going back to the well. You're just damaging your reputation even further by starting this before the other two are complete. The second, much simpler campaign is already 5 months late on fulfilment.

/facepalm

Sorry, I'm not involved, so might have this wrong, but ITT hasn't he confirmed that the previous campaign is complete, and not started this one yet?

EDIT
Nope, got it wrong!

I'm out of town for a couple days, but will back this project once I get back home. True there were delays and setbacks with the original KS, but Tre always kept coming back and taking it on the chin. Other, much larger players have had some crazy delays and we keep coming back for more abuse even when they fall off the radar for months at a time. I don't have a great deal of use for any of the figures right now, but I know these will be awesome sculpts that paint up well on one of those days where I want to do something different, just because.

 tre manor wrote:
I actually just got off the phone with Ed who informs me he is on the way to the PO with the last box for me right now. This means that at logn last i can finish out the fulfillment of the first KS campaign and be done with it. I am working on the KS update right now.

That is fantastic, Tre!! Thanks for the update

While obviously it would be better for KS1 to be fulfilled before anything else was done, that campaign was a disaster and a major learning curve for all involved.

While waiting for that disaster to resolve itself, the creators involved still need to eat, and as they make their living as creators, that means creating new stuff. I don't begrudge Tre a new project at all, though I am happy to see that this one is modest in scope, and I think that is much more reasonable for a one man show like Tre.

It's not like he can make the other campaign go any faster if he doesn't create anything new, you know what I mean? It's all sculpted, it's just waiting for it to get cast that is the problem. Unfortunately, Tre's fine sculpts were not suitable for the Trollcast material, it seems, or at least, they tested that material to it's limit.

This seems like the right way to go Tre. I've backed all your previous KS and I'm happy to back this one. I think despite the difficulty you've shown some integrity, and that you've learned from your past mistakes.

It's also worth pointing out that for KS2 the stuff Tre can do (sculpting etc) is done and the stuff that's still outstanding is at the casters

(for metal which seems to suit Tre's sculpting style better than Trollcast)

so folk like me waiting for the wolf riders should be happy relatively soon so I've no problem with him running another KS now

Tre I just read that you'll be sculpting for Mierce and that makes me very happy - onen of my favorite sculptors with one of my favorite miniature companies!

Thanks everyone!

Yes I did REALLy want to wait to resolve both of the previous Kickstarters but the bills just won;t wait so I had to launch now.

On the upside KS1 shoudl be resolved before the end of this campaign, and KS2 shoudl also be delivered by then as well, or shortly there after anyway.

the Mierce Commission. Yep I am pretty excited about it. I love the concept they gave me. It is a nice break from what I have been doign thus far.

Awesome to hear that you're sculpting a commission for Mierce... I can't wait to see it!

Also, really love the update on KS1 that you posted. That definitely seems like the right way to go about it, and shipping everything but the horses ASAP now that the final box has been shipped to you sounds great.

The project was a mans piece of work, Tre.

Congratz on the excellent figures. You had a few issues on the project, but just know that some of us out here are 110% happy with the result, and really, you out-did yourself in the communication and quality talent department throughout the campaign.

I myself would like to thank you for the hard work and dedication on the whole thing.


For what its worth, Thanks for the efforts, across the board.

I'm one of the guys who are still waiting the stuff from KS1, and I'm okay with Tre doing other campaigns, working for other companies or whatever. His sculpts for KS1 are done, he's not going to get the castings done faster by like staring at the greens or anything. He has to keep working. The first KS backfired, all right. But it will eventually get to a happy ending. At the end it's just been a matter of time.

Trust me, the KS1 figs are worth the wait. I wish I had pledged for more. I hope there are extras of the Gynnade Krigare plastics as I want to get at least 8-10 more.

It sounds like there might be, from the latest update, judgedoug (maybe that's what you were referring to). I'm just glad the boxes are going to be shipped, and just the store credit or horses will remain outstanding. That will be a good resolution after this amount of time, I think, to have all but that done.

And I agree about Tre doing new work, as long as the above is the highest priority (i.e. getting those boxes shipped now that the final minis are in the mail to him). I'm really stoked about his sculpt for Mierce, and the only thing keeping me out of this campaign so far is I don't have any "non evil" human armies that I could use the Norse in. But I love the sculpts!

 judgedoug wrote:
Trust me, the KS1 figs are worth the wait. I wish I had pledged for more. I hope there are extras of the Gynnade Krigare plastics as I want to get at least 8-10 more.

They look very nice ranked up too. I put them on circular bases with magnets to use in skirmish games and to use on metal movement trays for unit-based games, and they look great all together, which is an accomplishment in my book. Sometimes models that look good singly don't rank up well and models designed to rank up well don't look very expressive on their own. Tre managed to do both.

I'm glad someone made the point about the bulk of Tre's work on the previous KS campaigns being done. It is absolutely true that staring at the greens doesn't make fulfillment happen faster. I for one would prefer to see Tre sculpting. The world needs more Tre Manor miniatures!

I am in. Loved all the figures I got from KS1.

And the news that you are sculpting a figure for Mierce (and one I have already ordered to boot!) is fantastic news too!

I'm in on your new KS and I'm very excited about your doing Erebius for Mierce, especially since I've already paid for him.

So, what is the deal with the KS 1 minis? Will they ever be available in Trollcast outside that KS or are they available in metal now? I know the relationship didn't work out too well, but I wasn't sure what the status of the KS 1 minis was overall.

Tre has told us on his forum that he has decided to go back to metal. This decision has made me very happy. I thought the troll cast stuff was good but I like his metal much better.

bbb- Likely, those minis simply won't be available, at least for the near future. It would cost money to have them cast again for metal production, and a lot of folks already have them now. As judgedoug said above, though, there may be some spares of a few of the models in Trollcast that are put up for sale on the webstore.

But mostly, the push has been to just meet the obligation to the Kickstarter backers- and that has been hard enough! The latest update shows that Tre should have enough, starting next week, to ship all remaining orders, except needing folks to request store credit / swaps for the horses if possible. Regardless, his update said all orders would be going out now, and if folks choose to wait for the horses rather than swap, that will have to be resolved separately.

I think it's smart to knock out everything else in one fell swoop, so I am very excited about that update, and to see the final boxes go out.

 bbb wrote:
So, what is the deal with the KS 1 minis? Will they ever be available in Trollcast outside that KS or are they available in metal now? I know the relationship didn't work out too well, but I wasn't sure what the status of the KS 1 minis was overall.

Its a production issue, or so it seems to me. The models are great and the material is capable of producing good casts, but it comes down to the manufacturer. If it has taken Tre this long to get his KS1 pledges out, do you think he could keep reliable restocks? If the molds have already been used a great deal between casts and miscasts, are they still usable?

Ultimately it is a shame, as the models are amazing and they may never see new life. If the masters are still available and there was enough demand, maybe Tre could get new molds made for casting in metal. Even so, what we already know is that Tre has sold a ton of them. How much of a market is there? And if the pieces were redone, they'd be more expensive for sure, maybe more expensive than folks are willing to pay, who knows?

The problem seems to be looking at it from the outside

(with a box of the trollcast minis from Tre's KS, but also from the Impact Chibi one)

that the issue is down in large part to the fineness of the sculpting Tre does (and lots of pointy spikes), which leads to bits that are just too fragile in Trollcast (which does have decent strength when it's thicker)

this means lots of miss-casts which have to be binned (unlike metal which could be re-cycled)

so while he has moulds that are usable for trollcast they won't be economical to use,

and making a mould suitable for metal will cost a bunch of money he doesn't feel he'll make back as most of his regular customers will already have the figures from the KS

Oh well, seems like a shame to have all those molds created and not used anymore, but Tre's just gotta keep moving forward if it didn't work out well.

Well I was really pleased with the decent sized box I received from KS2 the other week, and I'm definitely in for the six Njorn badasses.

Even the models from KS1 are fantastic (as many folks have posted- although I know a few didn't prefer the material). But Tre's sculpts and his method is better suited to metal or resin.

(I say this as someone who bought out a person's KS1 pledge, and love the models, and also as someone who is heavy backer of Ed's kickstarter... which we have been patiently waiting to start receiving minis on while all this was dealt with!)

That's why this Kickstarter makes sense (with Tre going back to metal, or doing commissions that will be cast in resin). And assuming he is indeed shipping out all the KS1 boxes with everything but horses, and doing swaps for those, I'm all for it!

I only ordered a handful of horsemen in my mega pledge from KS1 and was lucky enough to get them (and the 'miscast bellies' are nearly unnoticeable) early on (as I messaged Tre directly and said I didn't mind miscasts). However, I love them so much as they are probably my favorite horseback barbarian dudes ever, that I would have no problem paying metal prices for them. ($15-$20)

I'm sure Tre could set up a 'pre order' system for converting the trollcast figs back to metal, and when he has enough 'pre orders' to pay for the costs of a particular mold, then go ahead and do them. I would not mind waiting to get more of those horsemen. As it stands, I have a unit of the ones I got from KS1 and then a sad lumpy unit of GW Marauder Horsemen who just look awful in comparison that I would love to replace with more of Tre's badass guys. And I only have one unit of twelve unarmored helsvakt horde guys and definitely would like another unit.

I suggested to Tre that he and Ed put up the mistcasts for sale as grab bags of items. At least you could recoup some costs from the venture rather than throwing out the material. Plus, people who buy the bags know ahead of time they won't be getting perfect items, so it works out nicely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: If Tre is still up for working with Ed, he might be able to work out something in regards to sculpting some of Ed's alien range (the trickier sculpts), but it looks like he'll be busy mostly with the Mierce kickstarter from here on out. Darnit.

Yeah, I'd totally buy a bag or three of 'miscasts'.

I'd also be up for some miscasts. Not in a "get cheap stuff from Tre" sort of way, I just think he should know that he doesn't have to write off that product.

Thanks guys. We are goign to work somethign out with the extras. There are a LOT of perfectly usable figures that had to be cast with other figures ( due to the family molding ) so we are going to work out a way to sell those to recoup some cost.

As for the Horses.....well If I make metal horses it won;t be with these sculpts. I was actually quite disappointed in myself with those. Further I was not really happy with most of the sculpts in the KS and hence I am seriosuly considering a total metal re-launch of the HelsVakt with all new hordesmen a proper cavalry, shield maidens and archers. But I won;t launch any funding efforts until ll of the sculpting and at least some of the mastering is done.

BUT all that comes ONLY after finishing up my current obligations.

 tre manor wrote:


Thanks guys. We are goign to work somethign out with the extras. There are a LOT of perfectly usable figures that had to be cast with other figures ( due to the family molding ) so we are going to work out a way to sell those to recoup some cost.

As for the Horses.....well If I make metal horses it won;t be with these sculpts. I was actually quite disappointed in myself with those. Further I was not really happy with most of the sculpts in the KS and hence I am seriosuly considering a total metal re-launch of the HelsVakt with all new hordesmen a proper cavalry, shield maidens and archers.

Ultimately, it's your line so do what you enjoy and you find rewarding in multiple senses of the word. I'd humbly suggest though that you've already partially satisfied the appetite of some barbarian players and it may be a more lucrative choice to do other lines you've neglected in the meantime rather than redoing what you just spent the last year doing.

With the leftover miniatures separate the good from the bad and sell the good ones individually (weapons needed) and the bad can be made into grab bags or sold as lots (all four Krigare, Helsvakt and Helsvakt Horsemen for example). I don't mind your sculpts for this KS, but I am definitely interested in the next KS if you're going to redo the line!

Fool me thrice shame on?

dodicula wrote:
Fool me thrice shame on?

While I love RBG and love the stuff Tre puts out, yeah, I sort of agree anyway. :/

OK........ I am not fooling anyone guys. The first KS problems have had NOTHING to do with anything I could have prevented or changed. I gave Ed the Sculpts I have given Ed the numbers and I am sat to wait until the product arrives. Ed has had his own hurtles to overcome and I am not attempting to pi n all of this on Ed but I have done everythign I can to make this project deliver faster and there is nothing else I can do. It was totally out of my hands I am along for the ride just like everyone else. I spent 7 years building my reputation and my relationship with you guys before the KS. I REALLY thought I had something when I set that campaign up. I never set out to ruin my business.

The set backs in KS 2 are the typical set-backs that happen all the time behind the scenes that you never hear or see anything about. I cannot tell you how many times in the past i have had to delay releases while things were fixed or remolded. Remember the Nannulf figure? That figure was first molded 6 months before it was actually released and was molded by three different contractors. Ymir the White? molded 3 times and took 3 months to release. Hogni's hunters molded twice by two different services and took 2 months to release.

These are just the examples I can think of off the top of my head. Thankfully for me when this was going on all of these items were not in the same release nor was the entire affair public knowledge. Things happen during production that cannto always be foreseen and any delay cause a chain reaction.

Now when you add the kind of work load that KS creates into the mix then suddenly you have a potential disaster pending. Add to that that there is also a time limit and that exacerbates the situation. Then add on to that that there are very FEW molding and casting contractors int he US market to work with....Only two of them are industrial level. These contractors have work flowing out of their ears right now because of Kickstarter. So any trip up in your process can throw your work weeks out of the schedule just because that the queue has to keep moving.

I am not fooling anyone, I am not lying, I am not misrepresenting. I am telling everyone EXACTLY what is going on as it happens.

The reason that KS 3 is so limited is because I can predict the outcome of this with very close certainty. The project is small enough that it can fit into the work load of my contractor ( Valiant ) without being a disruption. If anything goes wrong it is limited enough that any fixes should occur very, very quickly, I will get everything I need to fulfill in one shot and the mastering is already done.


I cannot apologize enough for the disaster of the first KS. I really truly am sorry guys. It is profoundly embarrassing and has been a huge disruption to my daily life for the past 15 months. I will NEVER make those mistakes again that I can assure you of.

i hear you, Tre...
we all have unforseen events thrown at us in our business and personal lives...
you have not buried your head in the sand and disappeared...
i respect that...
you are a great sculptor, and have some loyal fans...

it may have hurt your pride, but it hasn't killed your business...
there are still people willing to give you another chance...
i know it is embarrasing to have your problems aired in public, but it does help people to be more understanding of the issues that cause delays...

once things get sorted out, and all the backers get their minis, it will be much easier to carry on...
almost there, bud...
stay strong, and keep sculpting awesome minis...

cheers
jah

I wasn't part of ks1 but I am part of ks2. I've received most of what I pledged for, which looks great btw, as can anyone who pays for split shipping, so I wonder how anyone could have been fooled. And tre's summed up above what kickstarter is all about... helping to get stuff to retail and being along for a ride that includes all the usual hassle involved.

Smells like trolling to me.

Tre,

I think you over-estimate the damage that KS1 did to your business.

What prevents me from pledging for this Kickstarter is the realization that all of your figures come in the special "RBG scale" which is too small to be on a table with anything but historicals. Mind you, I like the proportions of the miniatures, just not the height. Miniatures with proportions as fine as these need to be probably 30% larger in order to not look out of place with the vast majority of miniatures out there.

I am aware of your reasons for choosing this special size and scale combo, but I think you may be over-estimating how much damage your late fulfillment of KS1 is doing to your business, and grossly under-estimating how much damage your unique scale is doing to your business. RBG figures just don't look good on the table with any other fantasy miniatures outside of LOTR.

Tre's business is to specifically make figures in the "RBG" scale. That IS his business. He would probably sell more figures if he sculpted in standard heroic scale, but that's not what he wants to do for his company based on what I've seen him say before.

As a fan of the sculpts it is annoying that they don't match most of anything I have, but I can't fault Tre for making the models he wants to make and the people who want to buy them.

I am glad this KS seems to be a bit more of a success. I think you have the right idea with this, as it's a smaller scale project that can be achieved realistically and does exactly what it says when it was set out. I can see clearly that you have learned the harsh lessons from the first KS and even from the second one. I'm really glad, because I am a massive fan of your work and want to keep buying it!

As to scale, to be honest, I love it. It's so much nicer to work with realistic proportions than the outsized freaks that get made more commonly. Rather than lose a customer in me, you've caused GW to lose one (mostly) as I am moving my collection to your more realistic scale. I have started collecting Historicals mostly to have troops that fit in with your stuff and I'm really happy I finally made the change. I intend playing with your guys as dramatic heroes or elites in my historical games and also experimenting with a more "historical" dark ages fantasy that fits what I want from my fantasy game more than WFB's OTT grimdark or PP's hyper powered steam fantasy.

So, one whole hearted thumbs up from me.

I will say though, I can understand the frustration of those waiting so long for KS1 items. I think you've done really well in answering criticism, but it's to be expected that it would make people really grumpy, having stuff be that delayed. It doesn't help that KS2 is also "late", even if the delays are much more realistic. The lesson seems well and truly learned for this KS which has a very realistic timeframe. Don't let it get to you, and keep doing what you're doing.

Tre, it is good that you are not pinning it on Ed, as from what I've seen it's been a combination of choices that you made / things that you requested, along with his difficulty in getting things produced. So, both sides had a role, and it is good that both sides have accepted blame and tried their very hardest to make amends.

I completely agree with Gallahad that it has not ruined your reputation as much as you think. Keep pushing forward, take on some commissions as you continue to work on your own range, and this new campaign has already funded!

I really look forward to seeing you ship all of the KS1 boxes without horses, and so having that completely finished except for that one item. That item is pretty much a microcosm for all of the issues- you wanted it cast as a single piece, Ed tried a new method to do so and cast up a ton of them, you got them but were then unhappy with what should have been an obvious result of the method of casting them as a single piece- air bubbles in the bellies. I have some of these from a pledge that I bought out, and am thrilled with them! And honestly, I don't know if you shipped some back to Ed, or used all the ones you received, but with indecision on that front now you're offering credit for the horses, and I guess hoping to get a small restock from Ed to supply the last folks who still wanted them rather than credit.

Personally, I give you both a ton of props for continuing to work through this together, and for being civil, and for both taking the blame for it! So like I said, I really am looking forward to hearing that the KS1 boxes have all been shipped, and credit given for the horses, or the last few horses shipped separately later. It will really be good to have this finished, for everybody, and as you can see it is not keeping your newer campaigns from doing well- KS2 raised 50% of KS1, and this one is doing really well (and is funded!) with just 6 sculpts. There is demand for your work, so just finish out that first campaign as you've said you will do, and keep your chin up!

I am a big supporter of you both, and will continue to be so, as will many here- just finish out KS1 as you have promised to do quickly here.

Heh, yeah, it's a common thing I see that people are delighted with Tre's sculpts but he's unhappy and wants to go back and fix something. I have no doubt that that perfectionism is what makes his stuff so bloody amazing, but I think it must be a tough time living with it and rarely being happy with the first pass on something

OK, people will need to be certain that they're following Rule #1 here on Dakka Dakka - and in this thread in particular.

 Gallahad wrote:
Tre,

I think you over-estimate the damage that KS1 did to your business.

What prevents me from pledging for this Kickstarter is the realization that all of your figures come in the special "RBG scale" which is too small to be on a table with anything but historicals. Mind you, I like the proportions of the miniatures, just not the height. Miniatures with proportions as fine as these need to be probably 30% larger in order to not look out of place with the vast majority of miniatures out there.

Pretty much this. I wish Tre made, I dunno, 35 mm truescale figures.They look great, they just don't work with anything else I own. If they were a bit bigger with the same proportions it would be great.

Here's an idea for the next Kickstarter.

Retool the existing Helsvekt models from KS1. Or just 6 of them. If no-one backs it, no harm/no foul. If it gets funded, (and it will) then obviously there's still a market for them.

Skip the arguments/excuses that you've sold all you ever with of those moulds/the market is saturated - if that were true it would have always been true regardless of how successful/unsuccessful the first fulfilment was. Besides, you always sold to retailers as well as off your website.

You say you want to redo them? Sure, but how about this instead. Sculpt more of them. Not replacements, but additions. Alternate between KS for new figures, like these, and retooling the KS1 models. Use the downtime for sculpting more and different stuff for your own range, and for commissions to keep money coming in.

Don't keep resculpting the same models that others are happy with. if you want to do more of them - fine, but replacing them you just end up a dog chasing it's own tail and not getting anywhere.

The best part of this suggestion to retool the Helsvakt into metal? If I'm wrong and it's a load of bs - then it simply won't fund.

 Azazelx wrote:
Here's an idea for the next Kickstarter.

Retool the existing Helsvekt models from KS1. Or just 6 of them. If no-one backs it, no harm/no foul. If it gets funded, (and it will) then obviously there's still a market for them.

Skip the arguments/excuses that you've sold all you ever with of those moulds/the market is saturated - if that were true it would have always been true regardless of how successful/unsuccessful the first fulfilment was. Besides, you always sold to retailers as well as off your website.

You say you want to redo them? Sure, but how about this instead. Sculpt more of them. Not replacements, but additions. Alternate between KS for new figures, like these, and retooling the KS1 models. Use the downtime for sculpting more and different stuff for your own range, and for commissions to keep money coming in.

Don't keep resculpting the same models that others are happy with. if you want to do more of them - fine, but replacing them you just end up a dog chasing it's own tail and not getting anywhere.

The best part of this suggestion to retool the Helsvakt into metal? If I'm wrong and it's a load of bs - then it simply won't fund.

Good points. I do guess that people might be unhappy with their newly bought figures when they hear that the sculptor isn't happy with them, didn't really want to release them but want to re-do them. I think that such statements could unfortunately shun people away. Say that you really like your sculpts, but that you will focus even more energy in bringing out new additions to them!

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:
Tre,

I think you over-estimate the damage that KS1 did to your business.

What prevents me from pledging for this Kickstarter is the realization that all of your figures come in the special "RBG scale" which is too small to be on a table with anything but historicals. Mind you, I like the proportions of the miniatures, just not the height. Miniatures with proportions as fine as these need to be probably 30% larger in order to not look out of place with the vast majority of miniatures out there.

Pretty much this. I wish Tre made, I dunno, 35 mm truescale figures.They look great, they just don't work with anything else I own. If they were a bit bigger with the same proportions it would be great.

Exactly! I think I would be buying exclusively RBG figures if that were the case as they hit every design/setting aesthetic perfectly for my tastes...except for the size. I mean, Tre's sculpting of human musculature and expressive faces is just so fantastic. I just like and own lots of other fantasy miniatures as well, and want them to look nice together.

 RiTides wrote:
Tre, it is good that you are not pinning it on Ed, as from what I've seen it's been a combination of choices that you made / things that you requested, along with his difficulty in getting things produced. So, both sides had a role, and it is good that both sides have accepted blame and tried their very hardest to make amends.

I completely agree with Gallahad that it has not ruined your reputation as much as you think. Keep pushing forward, take on some commissions as you continue to work on your own range, and this new campaign has already funded!

I really look forward to seeing you ship all of the KS1 boxes without horses, and so having that completely finished except for that one item. That item is pretty much a microcosm for all of the issues- you wanted it cast as a single piece, Ed tried a new method to do so and cast up a ton of them, you got them but were then unhappy with what should have been an obvious result of the method of casting them as a single piece- air bubbles in the bellies. I have some of these from a pledge that I bought out, and am thrilled with them! And honestly, I don't know if you shipped some back to Ed, or used all the ones you received, but with indecision on that front now you're offering credit for the horses, and I guess hoping to get a small restock from Ed to supply the last folks who still wanted them rather than credit.

Personally, I give you both a ton of props for continuing to work through this together, and for being civil, and for both taking the blame for it! So like I said, I really am looking forward to hearing that the KS1 boxes have all been shipped, and credit given for the horses, or the last few horses shipped separately later. It will really be good to have this finished, for everybody, and as you can see it is not keeping your newer campaigns from doing well- KS2 raised 50% of KS1, and this one is doing really well (and is funded!) with just 6 sculpts. There is demand for your work, so just finish out that first campaign as you've said you will do, and keep your chin up!

I am a big supporter of you both, and will continue to be so, as will many here- just finish out KS1 as you have promised to do quickly here.

QTF! There's very little I can add here, think you got my sentiments regarding this down perfectly!

I have been a huge fan of Tre's work for quite awhile. Besides the quality of the minis, what brought me to buy most of Tres line is the scale of the miniatures. I have received all of my KS1 and most of my KS2. I don't have any complaints. I am building a game to run just using his miniatures, so please don't listen to people wanting you to change scales.Tre is in learning mode and I believe he will come out of this wiser and stronger. I'm looking forward to seeing his vision for Dark Elves.

Yeah, have to agree, I like Tre's scale. I can't stand GW's out of proportion scaled figures. They also fit in nicely with my Rackham Miniatures and a lot of the Mantic Undead.

The only GW I own is LOTR miniatures and not very many of them. I have been gaming and collecting minatures for 35 years and have never cared for GW. Just my own preferance for smaller and more realistic scales. (yes, I know it is fantasy)

 Gallahad wrote:
Tre,

I think you over-estimate the damage that KS1 did to your business.

What prevents me from pledging for this Kickstarter is the realization that all of your figures come in the special "RBG scale" which is too small to be on a table with anything but historicals. Mind you, I like the proportions of the miniatures, just not the height. Miniatures with proportions as fine as these need to be probably 30% larger in order to not look out of place with the vast majority of miniatures out there.

If they were 30% larger, they would be out of scale with other 28-30mm miniatures.

The industry is clearly moving towards finer, more realistic proportioning in table top miniatures. The skills of sculptors have grown and manufacturing techniques are making finer details easier and easier to capture. Tre Manor has been on the bleeding edge of this movement, in my opinion. And he's kept his entire line beholden to an internally consistent scale, which is awesome.

Some companies are sticking with an older style of more 'heroic' (dis)proportioned miniatures. The miniatures aren't taller than Tre's miniatures, they just have wildly inaccurate proportions; swollen bobble heads and giant ham fists. They are like cartoon monsters. And if you like that style, that's great. Some people do.

One of the reasons I support RBG is that I want more table top miniatures to have realistic proportions. I don't want to see a certain large manufacturer dictate artistic trends with its market share. For a small company like RBG, there are costs associated with bucking the long-established market trends. If my custom can help to defray those costs and keep what I feel is an innovative company in business, to me that's a reward all its own.

While I totally agree about not changing scale, it would make 100% sense (from the customer's point of view, at least) for there to be a ruler shown, or at least a height measurement given, for the figures. Unfortunately, despite this being requested a lot this is rarely done by Tre.

The Dire Wolves compared to Fenris, both from KS1, were the most interesting to me. I got both, and love both, but Fenris is several times larger than the dire wolves. From the pictures (perhaps the way they're cropped?) it is really, really hard to tell this drastic difference.

My point is that, even within Tre's own line, it's hard to know the size of the model you will be getting. Now that I'm familiar with it more, I am confident I know about how tall those human models are... but for most things I'm still just guessing (for instance, the size difference between goblin footmen and bonebacks... I know there's a difference, but I kind of have to guess about it and hope I end up right, or just order a few to get a size comparison myself before buying the rest).

I'm not sure what the models are listed as normally, but it should be no more than 25mm, and even that may be too high. The main issue for me is that there is no way to know what the size of a particular model you haven't gotten from Tre before is- he is staying true to his idea for each unit but that idea, and most importantly that size, is not always communicated.

Anyway, all that to say, I love the proportions of these minis, but you really do need to use them on their own, with just a few exceptions. Well worth doing so, imo, but people new to the range usually have no idea of this fact as it is not listed clearly anywhere (imo, at least).

I too like miniatures with more realistic proportions. I would just prefer Tre's miniatures were larger. There are many examples of great miniatures out there with realistic proportions that are taller than Tre's RBG stuff. 28mm is not some magical height above which a miniature becomes a hamfisted bobble head.

If Tre were to increase the scale of his miniatures while keeping the same proportions we all enjoy, 1) Everybody who likes miniatures with realistic proportions would still be happy 2)People with large existing collections in more current scales would be happy since Tre's miniatures could now be used alongside their current miniatures 3)The only people unhappy would be people who have fantasy collections in primarily the 25mm scale.

Do you think group 2) or group 3) is larger?

Again, realistic proportions are not tied to any one scale. You can have miniatures that stand 35mm tall with super realistic proportions, and miniatures that stand 25mm tall with super realistic proportions.

As an extra bonus, it is much easier to paint miniatures with realistic proportions when they are in larger scales.

 Gallahad wrote:
I too like miniatures with more realistic proportions. I would just prefer Tre's miniatures were larger. There are many examples of great miniatures out there with realistic proportions that are taller than Tre's RBG stuff. 28mm is not some magical height above which a miniature becomes a hamfisted bobble head.

If Tre were to increase the scale of his miniatures while keeping the same proportions we all enjoy, 1) Everybody who likes miniatures with realistic proportions would still be happy 2)People with large existing collections in more current scales would be happy since Tre's miniatures could now be used alongside their current miniatures 3)The only people unhappy would be people who have fantasy collections in primarily the 25mm scale.

Do you think group 2) or group 3) is larger?

Again, realistic proportions are not tied to any one scale. You can have miniatures that stand 35mm tall with super realistic proportions, and miniatures that stand 25mm tall with super realistic proportions.

As an extra bonus, it is much easier to paint miniatures with realistic proportions when they are in larger scales.

Again, the problem is that then you would have a 'heroic' model and a model in a different scale with more realistic proportions. That is, the bobble head model's head would be a bobble head lower than the head of the other model. It would be like all of Tre's models are 8 foot tall behemoths with realistically sized heads.

28mm is not a "magic" scale, but you are assuming that a realistically proportioned model representing 6' tall humanoid would look "better" next to an unrealistically proportioned model representing a 6' tall humanoid that was a head shorter. Putting a 35mm model next to a 28mm model doesn't look right, regardless of what the model's respective proportions are. They are out of scale.

Tre's models aren't smaller in scale than other 28mm models. They just look smaller because the details are finer. Head to toe they are roughly the same size if you look at models both representing something that is supposed to be the same size. Now, Tre's range has an internally consistent scale, meaning that his Aelfar are smaller and slighter than the Aenglish. So your Aelfar models actually are smaller than some other 28mm models because the Aelfar are short.

My wife is 5'1" I am 6'. If we were both shrunk down in size to 28mm models, she would still be a head shorter than me. Her model would represent a 5' tall human, not a human woman whose eyes are literally 28mm from the base. So you might pick up her model by itself without any context and say, "Oh, this is a 25mm model." But if you put that model with other models in the same scale, you would get the impression that the was just a short person.

There's natural variation in height, and in a fantasy setting, different humanoid races often have different average heights/weights. Contextually, Tre's models reflect that. In GW's range on the other hand, a Space Marine model is eye to eye with an Imperial Guardsman model. A fact which some purists don't like.

If RITides is correct in saying that Tre's mini humans are 25mm tall, then they could easily be 5mm tallerthan they currently are and still be no taller than a GW elf, guardsman or space marine. Frankly, they sound like Warlord minis' "28mm" Romans, which are petite to the point of being adorable next to any '28mm' fantasy miniatures out there, and put me off of ever buying any of their kits again.

Maybe if one of you guys could post a photo of some Red Box minis next to...anything else, we could see just how close they are in height.

Here you go:

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/?s=red+box+games

If I had to vote, I'd vote to keep his traditional scale and proportions. I love them. The minis that I bought were not aimed to be used with a particular game, I bought them just for collecting. I still might use his minis with GW armies, I don't care the difference if they are both cool.

 Azazelx wrote:
Here you go:

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/?s=red+box+games

Thanks for that - very nicely done!

Also, that's a slick looking blog you've got there!

Looks like they scale OK with LoTR - which probably means they do NOT scale well with WFB.

 Azazelx wrote:
Here you go:

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/?s=red+box+games

And you can see that Tre's miniatures are actually taller on average than the LOTR miniatures. If Tre's models were all standing up straight, they would be at least half a head taller. LOTR isn't just more realistically proportioned, it is also a slightly smaller scale, being ~25mm versus ~28mm trending towards 30mm.

Thanks Weeble and Azazel for the very helpful posts.

As fro the scale of RBG figures.....they are definitely NOT 25mm scale. In fact non of my human models are posed shorter than 30 mm tall. My figures ARE true 35 mm scale. Because the Human males ( which represent the average figure in the range ) are built on armatures that are 35 mm tall from the bottom of the feet to the top of the head with both feet together and back straight. Their height only reduces as the figure is posed. The proportions that I sculpt in are as correct as I can make them. I do this because I like it and I assume that there are a lot of people out there who also like this scale. I understand that people want their collections to work together but that has never been my goal. My goal has been to product the best quality product I could to the fantasy table top gamer market. It is regrettable that the market I am playing to is smaller than the market that prefers the exaggerated cartoony scales but it is the market I have always intended to play to none the less.

I do nto mean to offend people who prefer the exaggerated stuff. I like quite a bti of it myself BUT consider it this way.....If the same " cohesive whole " logic was applied to video games as it is to table top games we woudl all still be playing the umpteenth variation of space invaders!

truly imagine what 40K would look like sculpted to the same ethos as the RBG range.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And thanks everyone who likes and supports the RBG range!!

Have you considered doing some figures for Mantic?

They scale pretty well with them.

This is true, though the Mantic stuff often has outscaled heads compared to RBG.

weeble1000 wrote:
Tre's models aren't smaller in scale than other 28mm models.

I disagree... this picture says it all for me, from Azazel's blog comparison:



And the reactions of unbiased posters such as Alpharius (who I think are neither a fan or a detractor of RBG):

 Alpharius wrote:
Looks like they scale OK with LoTR - which probably means they do NOT scale well with WFB.

Look at the picture I copied above again. Now consider the fact that most people looking at a cropped image of the RBG dwarf will assume the base is a standard size... and you see the problem.

I don't begrudge Tre his unique scale at all. The issue is, he doesn't show measurements in pictures, and uses non-standard bases, which are the only visual clue to size. I'm going to spoiler 3 images below, and ask you to guess the base size:


So, all those figures should be about the same size, right?

Wrong... the zombies and the female model are shown on a much smaller base size, but when the image is cropped with no size comparison, how can you tell? Unfortunately, I gave my zombies to a zombie-crazed friend before taking a pic, but look at the female model in the upper right of the below pic compared to the male models:



The female model literally looks like it's going to fall apart if you look at it funny. But go back and look at the pic above... was there any way you could tell it was that slender? No, because it filled the base it was standing on- likely a 10mm or 15mm base.

I love Tre's sculpting, but the way he crops his images with no size reference and with whatever smallest base size will fit under the model, even within his own range you are sometimes completely guessing as to what size the model will be that you'll actually get. The dire wolves compared to Fenris in the above pic would be another example of that (both from his range, but impossible to tell the size difference from the pics he posted... and the fluff reason I did not find out about until afterwards).

I hope this does not come across negative- I am just trying to demonstrate the problem, which for some reason never seems to get communicated clearly, that it is impossible to tell the size of RBG models from the pics that Tre posts! If he would at least list the base size used in pics, that would go a long way, or if he would use a standard size... but putting a super slender model on a 10-15mm base makes it seem so much larger than it really is.

I agree with that point RiTides- the smaller round bases really do make it harder to tell the size of the miniatures.

 tre manor wrote:


Thanks Weeble and Azazel for the very helpful posts.

As fro the scale of RBG figures.....they are definitely NOT 25mm scale. In fact non of my human models are posed shorter than 30 mm tall. My figures ARE true 35 mm scale. Because the Human males ( which represent the average figure in the range ) are built on armatures that are 35 mm tall from the bottom of the feet to the top of the head with both feet together and back straight. Their height only reduces as the figure is posed. The proportions that I sculpt in are as correct as I can make them. I do this because I like it and I assume that there are a lot of people out there who also like this scale. I understand that people want their collections to work together but that has never been my goal. My goal has been to product the best quality product I could to the fantasy table top gamer market. It is regrettable that the market I am playing to is smaller than the market that prefers the exaggerated cartoony scales but it is the market I have always intended to play to none the less.

I do nto mean to offend people who prefer the exaggerated stuff. I like quite a bti of it myself BUT consider it this way.....If the same " cohesive whole " logic was applied to video games as it is to table top games we woudl all still be playing the umpteenth variation of space invaders!

truly imagine what 40K would look like sculpted to the same ethos as the RBG range.

I

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And thanks everyone who likes and supports the RBG range!!

have said this before, your sculpts are amazing. It is not always a 'bad' thing not to be running with the crowd. It is one of the things that makes your minis stand out. The only hit you will take is the minis being used as 'counts as', It may hurt sales now, but as you develop your line and at some point a game to cohesively bind the line you will be happy you chose to stay with your vision IMO.

weeble wrote:

Again, the problem is that then you would have a 'heroic' model and a model in a different scale with more realistic proportions. That is, the bobble head model's head would be a bobble head lower than the head of the other model. It would be like all of Tre's models are 8 foot tall behemoths with realistically sized heads.

28mm is not a "magic" scale, but you are assuming that a realistically proportioned model representing 6' tall humanoid would look "better" next to an unrealistically proportioned model representing a 6' tall humanoid that was a head shorter. Putting a 35mm model next to a 28mm model doesn't look right, regardless of what the model's respective proportions are. They are out of scale.

Tre's models aren't smaller in scale than other 28mm models. They just look smaller because the details are finer.

Your last line is key. Tre's models look smaller because the details are finer. Even if they are 35mm from head to toe, do they look better to you standing next to 25mm LOTR minis, or standing next to say a GW warrior of chaos?

When it comes to fantasy miniatures, bigger is always better. Particularly when you are dealing with barbarians. It is much easier to mix in a few larger models into a collection, than to mix in a few smaller models. You mix in a few bigger guys (45mm to top of head with super fine details for instance), and they just become the big tough guys of the group. They look intimidating.

You mix in a few smaller models, and they become...the really short children of the group with tiny wrists and tiny cute little pin swords. Basically, it is always better to deviate from your mean height/scale in the positive direction in a fantasy setting than in the negative direction.

Bigger models are also easier to paint. There is a reason that other boutique miniature companies with fantastic sculptors gravitate towards larger scales.

Anyways, the point of raising this whole issue was to point out that I don't think Tre's business has been as hurt by KS1 as he estimates (Good news!), rather it is people discovering as RiTides and others did that Tre's miniatures are either tiny, or look tiny compared to the majority of fantasy miniatures out there(Cool if you are into that!).

I hope this next KS goes great. And my dream is basically to become wealthy enough I can hire Tre to sculpt me a set of fantasy inspired vikings with great proportions for a set of injection plastic molds that I will then sell to the world.

Anyone with any aspirations towards producing fine miniatures needs to discount the possibility of trying to scale anything next to Games Workshop's brigade of simian disco rejects.

 RiTides wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
Tre's models aren't smaller in scale than other 28mm models.

I disagree... this picture says it all for me, from Azazel's blog comparison:

Both ladies' eyeline seems to be the same distance from the base. It's just that one of them is a gigantic bulbous monstrosity that should never have left the 1990s.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Anyone with any aspirations towards producing fine miniatures needs to discount the possibility of trying to scale anything next to Games Workshop's brigade of simian disco rejects.

the pain of coffee exiting my nostrils. exalt

That's a slightly unfair characterization of a lot of their stuff, but several armies have such idiosynchratic styles that they cannot be matched by realistic proportioned miniatures in anything akin to a seamless fashion. GW dwarves are one example. They're very gofy.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
That's a slightly unfair characterization of a lot of their stuff, but several armies have such idiosynchratic styles that they cannot be matched by realistic proportioned miniatures in anything akin to a seamless fashion. GW dwarves are one example. They're very gofy.

I liked GW styles a lot when I was in my teens, but I can't really stand it anymore. I've been moving towards liking a more slender/truescale style, with Perry minis and other historicals (NOT Front Rank), some Mantic, Red Box Games, etc.

For instance, these Fife & Drum British AWI look great to me because they are about as realistic as you can get


and Perry French Napoleonic Dragoons are still "28mm scale" with exaggerated proportions but nowhere NEAR GW style

and Desert Rats


and both those look infinitely superior to me than


^^ WTF is that guy doing!? is that left arm 6 feet long?!

or these guys whose hands are larger than their heads (and I have a HUGE high elf army... all spearmen and archers are metal 4th/5th though, as I can't _stand_ these plastics)


and this gem...

I agree wholeheartedly. GW's style especially is pretty over-exaggerated. It's cool if it's your thing, but I think painting so many GW orcs over the years has made me a bit burned out on it. I also find PP's over the top style tiring.

I love Tre's dwarves. They look the way I always imagine fantasy dwarves to look. I can't wait to get some more from his second KS!

 Da Boss wrote:
I agree with that point RiTides- the smaller round bases really do make it harder to tell the size of the miniatures.

This is all I meant, really... If Tre would just photograph his models so it is possible to know what size they are, I would have zero issues with them.

As it is, even if it's unintentional, the end result is a bit deceptive... because a model you thought was filling a 25mm base was filling a 15mm one


Sorry for the derail a bit, but to get back to the Kickstarter, it did make me wonder... what size bases are these Njorn shown on? I had assumed 25mm rounds, but looking again I see they hang off the edges... so are they 20mm?

Any scale shot would be great, or even just that info (base size) would really help.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Anyone with any aspirations towards producing fine miniatures needs to discount the possibility of trying to scale anything next to Games Workshop's brigade of simian disco rejects.

 RiTides wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
Tre's models aren't smaller in scale than other 28mm models.

I disagree... this picture says it all for me, from Azazel's blog comparison:

Both ladies' eyeline seems to be the same distance from the base. It's just that one of them is a gigantic bulbous monstrosity that should never have left the 1990s.

Exactly. This is my point.

Well, I can certainly agree about the "bulbous monstrosity that never should have left the 90s" part . Looks especially silly next to Tre's excellent sculpt!

Thanks, AzazelX!

I have the start of a lot of LOTR armies that I was buying before the prices kerploded, so I'm actually more interested in these figures now. Will Redbox still be releasing Trollcast (or non-metal) figures in the foreseeable future? By the time I have money for sampling new ranges, I'm afraid Tre's stuff will only be available in metal.

It's already metal only for the most part, Bob, unless you were in on KS1 or can snag some extras from it. Metal suits his delicate sculpts well, though.

There si no such thing as 15 mm bases. There are onyl 20 mm bases and 25 mm bases, 30, 40 and 50 and 80.

Rest assured that EVERY Human male is built upon a 35 mm armature except for the Journeyman Gerard who is half elven. He is built on a 30mm armature. FEmale humans range from 30 to 32, Elves range from 28 to 30 between femal and male respectively. Dwarves all range from 22 to 26 female and male respectively. There is not variation in height amoungst RBG figures that is out of the norm with other RBG figures. I do not make proxy figures and do not at all intend that they be used as proxy figures.

If there is any misleading advertising it is in the use of the descriptive 28 mm Heroic scale.

Fenris is a wolf god, the dire wolves are just slightly larger wolves. Yrsa is half Elven and the Helsvakt tend to be brutish humans. Hence the difference there. I understand that the confusion is rooted in the long tradition in miniatures of moving the criteria of " scale" every year or so but with RBG every figure will ALWAYS match what it is supposed to be within the context of the RBG world.

If you see pointed ears it is either an Elf or a Half Elf so it will always range within 28 to 30 if it is female or 30 to 32 if it is a male. Dwarves all fit with one another, Humans all fit with one another and all these races fit with one another as they would in any given old school fantasy art work. That is the mission of RBG to provide the most internally consistent line of fine scale fantasy models on the market.

I tell people the height of figures all the time and then people still give me grief that the figures are " smaller " than I tell them because they have a specific ( most often totally wrong ) idea of what a given measurement will look based on what other manufacturers tell them a particular measurement will look.

28 mm heroic is a manipulation. Plain and simple. Take any 10 28 mm heric figures from any particular manufacturer and measure up to 28 mm on each one and tell me if any of them measure 28 mm to the same spot on the mini. For that matter are any of the arms legs and torsos the same length or girth? It is not a measurement it is a marketing gimmic invented to help get a line of figures that was MUCH larger for the time into nationwide distribution.

 tre manor wrote:
Fenris is a wolf god, the dire wolves are just slightly larger wolves. Yrsa is half Elven and the Helsvakt tend to be brutish humans. Hence the difference there. I understand that the confusion is rooted in the long tradition in miniatures of moving the criteria of " scale" every year or so but with RBG every figure will ALWAYS match what it is supposed to be within the context of the RBG world.

If you see pointed ears it is either an Elf or a Half Elf so it will always range within 28 to 30 if it is female or 30 to 32 if it is a male. Dwarves all fit with one another, Humans all fit with one another and all these races fit with one another as they would in any given old school fantasy art work. That is the mission of RBG to provide the most internally consistent line of fine scale fantasy models on the market.

The problem is, if internal consistency is the goal, that is only being accomplished if a person knows the background and reasoning for each model to be the way that it is.

That background would be fantastic to see! But usually, it isn't posted, and although I totally believe that you are working to a specific goal with the size of each figure, there is no way for us (as customers) to know that.

To take the Dire Wolves as an example, here is what was posted about them:

Nigh the size of a man and the ravenous hunger of the great wolf god himself the Dire Wolves race through tangled wood and over open ground with equal ferocity slathering jaws agape to rip and rend the flesh of their prey, man and beast alike it matters not when the Howling God leads the way.. Summoned forth from the deepest primordial wilds they serve the will of Fenris only!

Almost the size of a man the Dire wolves will be a set of 3 wolf kits fitted for modularly interchangeable heads. ...these beasts will be available as a rank ( 3 figures ) option or separately as a set ( 3 figures ) for $18.00.

"Nigh the size of a man" isn't much to go on, when it seems (to me at least) that they turned out quite a bit smaller!

Likewise, Yrsa is not described on the main page as half elven... maybe it was mentioned somewhere but that is the point, it is very hard to know what you're getting!

All I'm saying is that, it would really help to make it more clear... I hope that came across. I won't make this point any further but the reason I really tried to here is that, despite it being brought up a number of times, you have not changed your methods in presenting your miniatures for the most part... it is the presentation I am talking about, not the scale- I really wish you could distinguish the two, and make it more clear what it is that you offer! Many people will still love it and buy it, and you'll have less issues of confused customers that way.

Finally, could you simply confirm that the miniatures in the new campaign are photographed on 25mm bases (not 20mm) as they are listed to come with? I believe they are, but as I said, just wanted to confirm. Below is what's listed for them:

All of these figures are cast in a single piece and will be cast in high quality lead free white metal and will be supplied with a 25 mm round plastic base.

Yep the New Njorn are pictured on 25 mm bases.

As before and always all Human male figrues are built on 35 mm armatures and then posed into whatever height they end up being. I do understand though that there is confusion in the equation fromt eh word go and that I coudl better clarify the issue.

I certainly do not intend to hide the size of my figures at all or even slightly mislead. When I said the dire wolves are " nigh the size of a man " I meant exactly that. Near the size of man. The wolf armatures are built the same way I built the human armatures. The only difference being that the hind legs are shorter than those of a human and the torso of the wolves is a little longer. When you take a human and pose it down on all fours with 2/3's the length of it's legs you will get the exact same size figure as the dire wolves. So they are indeed near as big a human just not standign upright on two legs and so they are " shorter ".

Anyway I hope I am nto coming across as argumentative. I know I probabyl am but I do nto intend to be so.

Cheers man!

Tre.

No problem, Tre- I was actually worried I was the one coming off argumentative lol... I'm sure much more than your posts were (yours were very polite, imo).

I really appreciate the dialogue, and I just hope the main point I was trying to make (that it's the presentation of the minis, not their actual scale, that sometimes causes issues) was clear!

I love Tre's figures (some of the best on the planet) and I love the scale as well...

BUT

I would also love it if the pics of minis included a mm/cm ruler in the frame. As everyone's computer monitors, resolutions, etc, are all different, that one added bit makes discerning a mini's size infinitely easier.

 judgedoug wrote:
I love Tre's figures (some of the best on the planet) and I love the scale as well...

BUT

I would also love it if the pics of minis included a mm/cm ruler in the frame. As everyone's computer monitors, resolutions, etc, are all different, that one added bit makes discerning a mini's size infinitely easier.

The majority of other miniatures companies don't do that. Tre's miniatures look small because I think some gamers are used to seeing fine details like that on larger models. Tre does include the base size in his product descriptions. If you know models and know base sizes and can see the model on the base, that gives you an idea about overall size. Still, Tre's artwork bucks the trend a bit, and some folks find it jarring to see the miniatures in the flesh.

Then you look closely and you can't believe the miniature has do much life and detail. And they paint up nicely too.

weeble1000 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
I love Tre's figures (some of the best on the planet) and I love the scale as well...

BUT

I would also love it if the pics of minis included a mm/cm ruler in the frame. As everyone's computer monitors, resolutions, etc, are all different, that one added bit makes discerning a mini's size infinitely easier.

The majority of other miniatures companies don't do that. Tre's miniatures look small because I think some gamers are used to seeing fine details like that on larger models. Tre does include the base size in his product descriptions. If you know models and know base sizes and can see the model on the base, that gives you an idea about overall size. Still, Tre's artwork bucks the trend a bit, and some folks find it jarring to see the miniatures in the flesh.

Then you look closely and you can't believe the miniature has do much life and detail. And they paint up nicely too.

I own... quick calculations, over a hundred Red Box Games miniatures So I am very familiar with them. Tre is a great guy and fantastic sculptor and those two reasons are why I keep coming back and buying product.

I am not faulting Tre specifically for a not having a ruler in his pics, as I also wish the majority of other miniatures companies did that as well. I only bring it up in relation to Tre/RBG as it's a RBG thread and not a generic all miniatures companies thread.

I'm just saying it isn't unusual to not have a ruler. Reaper does that a bit. It would be nice if more companies did it, I agree. Maybe folks don't like to sully a pretty picture with a ruler. Though you could have an assembled/painted pic and also an unpainted pic with a ruler.

KS2 is my first exposure to RBG figures. I recently got about 40 of them and they're great, but I was a little blown away at the size of the elf characters in particular. I wasn't expecting them (females) to ever be nearly that small. They're still great sculpts and I would still buy them. But small elves in particular goes against the grain for me, who spent most of his late childhood reading Tolkien, Forgotten Realms, and Dragonlance books, where elves were the same height or taller than humans.

The addition of a ruler or some kind of visual comparison in the images might help for people like me.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Here you go:

http://azazelx.wordpress.com/?s=red+box+games

And you can see that Tre's miniatures are actually taller on average than the LOTR miniatures. If Tre's models were all standing up straight, they would be at least half a head taller. LOTR isn't just more realistically proportioned, it is also a slightly smaller scale, being ~25mm versus ~28mm trending towards 30mm.

Except that ...no you're wrong there. Some are taller, some are shorter. The LotR models aren't all standing up straight, either. The barbarian dude is taller than Boromir, but given that he's a barbarian dude, he's probably supposed to be taller. The dwarves are pretty much dead on (why do you think I bought so many?) The ladies are a bit taller - but then Arwen is a shorter LotR model, and also people aren't all the same height, and of the two elves next to Legolas, one is the same height with the same kind of stance, and the other is bowed down. Sverrelf is in the same kind of situation with the GW Uruks.

In fact the only figure in the whole lot there that fits the "head taller" description you're trying to give there is the barbarian when compared to Boromir... and the halfling is a ton shorter then Frodo...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Anyone with any aspirations towards producing fine miniatures needs to discount the possibility of trying to scale anything next to Games Workshop's brigade of simian disco rejects.

 RiTides wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
Tre's models aren't smaller in scale than other 28mm models.

I disagree... this picture says it all for me, from Azazel's blog comparison:

Both ladies' eyeline seems to be the same distance from the base. It's just that one of them is a gigantic bulbous monstrosity that should never have left the 1990s.

You know that GW dwarven female is from the 1990's, don't you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tre manor wrote:

Rest assured that EVERY Human male is built upon a 35 mm armature except for the Journeyman Gerard who is half elven. He is built on a 30mm armature. FEmale humans range from 30 to 32, Elves range from 28 to 30 between femal and male respectively. Dwarves all range from 22 to 26 female and male respectively. There is not variation in height amoungst RBG figures that is out of the norm with other RBG figures. I do not make proxy figures and do not at all intend that they be used as proxy figures.

If there is any misleading advertising it is in the use of the descriptive 28 mm Heroic scale.

Jesus, Tre. People here are trying to help you. Stop hurf blurfing and bitching about the scale that's been dominant for the last three decades and take the advice. People just want to know how big the models will be without playing the "guess the size Tre' scultps these in" game so they won't be put off from buying more models from you. Photograph them next to a ruler or a AA battery or sculpt your own "sir forscale" who is exactly 25 or 28 or 30mm tall and use it in photos. Better yet, sculpt a menhir with clear markings at 10, 15, 20, 25, 30mm and use that.

He didn't come off as bitchy at all to me ...

Though I'll chime in that I would LOVE it if Tre (and everyone) would adopt some sort of ruler/marker/standard system when displaying new product. I'm apparently very bad at judging that by eye because I am constantly surprised with how big/little things are when I get them.

 Da Boss wrote:
I agree with that point RiTides- the smaller round bases really do make it harder to tell the size of the miniatures.

These figures are around the same size as older Grenader, Reaper, Ral Partha figures. The smaller bases are par on with the figures, as is.


The figures do not scale to GW's ranges, at all. They are smaller in girth, stature, and proportions. They make up for it in detail, and are a completely different range.

The fact that we are seeing them scaled up with Hobbit figures is enough. They are 28mm. some may be 29 for laughs, but GW's is to the scale of almost 35 now, based on scale creep over the past few years, if you set up one of tre's figures next to a FW one, they would be a better fit.


I'm not trying to pee in the punch bowl, but its a fact. The figures are great detailed, but not the same size as GW's. You could put them on the GW bases, if you want to, but they are better for use with other games, RPG characters, skirmish and the like.

Funded! Well done Tre!

greywulf wrote:
KS2 is my first exposure to RBG figures. I recently got about 40 of them and they're great, but I was a little blown away at the size of the elf characters in particular. I wasn't expecting them (females) to ever be nearly that small. They're still great sculpts and I would still buy them. But small elves in particular goes against the grain for me, who spent most of his late childhood reading Tolkien, Forgotten Realms, and Dragonlance books, where elves were the same height or taller than humans.

The addition of a ruler or some kind of visual comparison in the images might help for people like me.

That is actually one of the reasons I like RBG figures. The elves in all the D&D worlds barring Dark Sun are significantly shorter than humans. The overall range in sizes is more like you would find if sculpted to a scale as well, so men tend to be taller than women. Humans taller than elves which are taller than dwarves. If you crack open most American based RPG books, the ratios arent too far off what you might get if you applied a scale conversion to the random height tables for the different races.

Granted, as a long time advocate for scale miniatures, that could also help settle the issue. If you make 1/48 scale figures and give a description (6 foot tall), anyone can work out that the figure will be 1 1/2" tall.

It would be really cool if Tre would have at least a "Usual Suspects" style lineup with all his races in a row, on his webstore.
Like the drawing in the D&D3.5 Player's Handbook has.
Use that as a backdrop for his webstore item pictures, with the metal mini he is selling in the foreground.

He makes really good stuff. But needs to give the random visitor an indicator of how they are sized.
He can justify his minis height on Dakka all day long, and he may know his reasoning for sizes.

But the average visitor is just going to flip thru his webstore and assume they are looking at "28mm"-GW sized minis.
Just as my Batman Knight Models minis may say they are 32mm, but I still didn't expect they would be taller than GW/PP/Infinity models.

Send me free minis and I will take photos of them (with scale comparisons!) and paint them for free and send you high resolution images of said paintjobs in multiple angles. (totally serious about this, btw)

I really love your work and it would be a shame if you go the heroic proportion route. Unfortunately I vowed that i should finish painting all my stuff first before I buy new ones, so it might take me a year or so to get miniatures from your range.

I agree with people wanting photo scale comparisons of your work. Dark Sword does exactly this to show how big/small the miniatures are in comparison to the miniatures on the same range:




Add a ruler (or penny) on the side and you don't have to tell people that humans are taller than your elf sculpts: they get it right away. A picture is worth a thousand words, after all.

Also, larger images would certainly help! i'm sure everyone would be more excited if they can see the details better.

 heartserenade wrote:

Add a ruler (or penny) on the side and you don't have to tell people that humans are taller than your elf sculpts: they get it right away. A picture is worth a thousand words, after all.

I'd prefer a ruler, not everyone has access to the same pennies, after all. We're not yet all living in Amerika.

A pence, then

But you are right. We "Amerikans" would even prefer it in millimeters so everyone can easily read it, and compare to the standard size tiers.

Damn, if I'd known about this kickstarter earlier I would have been in on it, I love the look of the models.

Hey Guys!

Thanks to everyone for their continued support of the RBG line. I am goign to focus on some solid web development during the fulfillment of the KS3. I agree that I do obviously need to do a better job of explaining my figures and the design intentions there of. As always I appreciate all feedback and suggestions and will take them all to heart.

 heartserenade wrote:
Send me free minis and I will take photos of them (with scale comparisons!) and paint them for free and send you high resolution images of said paintjobs in multiple angles. (totally serious about this, btw)
...

Add a ruler (or penny) on the side and you don't have to tell people that humans are taller than your elf sculpts: they get it right away. A picture is worth a thousand words, after all.

Also, larger images would certainly help! i'm sure everyone would be more excited if they can see the details better.

Those pages from my blog with the RBG height comparisons that I linked are consistently amongst the most popular pages on my blog in terms of hits, despite those posts being almost 2 and 3 years old. I guess I could do another one and get more hits, but the point is really that people want to know this information, and Tre' really should be providing this info on his shop page rather than people having to visit pages like my pissy little blog to try and find out. Like I say, I don't mind the hits, but it's a bit like Mantic having the contents of the DeadZone baggies on a KS update page and how to unwarp restic on a YouTube link from their Facebook group or whatever. Get the info out there, and make it easy to find!

Ah well, maybe I should just do another one this weekend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tre manor wrote:
Hey Guys!

Thanks to everyone for their continued support of the RBG line. I am goign to focus on some solid web development during the fulfillment of the KS3. I agree that I do obviously need to do a better job of explaining my figures and the design intentions there of. As always I appreciate all feedback and suggestions and will take them all to heart.

Tre' I don't think people really care about the design limitations or how big the armature is. They just want to know how big (or small) the figures are!

I figure this is the best place to post this since Tre doesn't have a regular N&R thread, there are only a few days left to purchase the Goblin Captain model that Tre donated to GoblinAid to help raise money for the sculptor Kev Adams. (The model was originally in the 2nd RBG Kickstarter which was cancelled.)
http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/shop/ga26-tre-manors-goblin-p-2920.html

The Ral Partha Website mentions that many of the GoblinAid models won't for sale again after the 31st of January, so unless Tre is planning to obtain the mould/master then this could very well be the last time this model is going to be available.


(Painted pic from OrlandotheTechnicoloured's GoblinAid thread.)

Yep, I snapped up that miniature of Tre's as soon as I could

I'd say everybody should buy one

It's a great sculpt!