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Even the models from KS1 are fantastic (as many folks have posted- although I know a few didn't prefer the material). But Tre's sculpts and his method is better suited to metal or resin.

(I say this as someone who bought out a person's KS1 pledge, and love the models, and also as someone who is heavy backer of Ed's kickstarter... which we have been patiently waiting to start receiving minis on while all this was dealt with!)

That's why this Kickstarter makes sense (with Tre going back to metal, or doing commissions that will be cast in resin). And assuming he is indeed shipping out all the KS1 boxes with everything but horses, and doing swaps for those, I'm all for it!

I only ordered a handful of horsemen in my mega pledge from KS1 and was lucky enough to get them (and the 'miscast bellies' are nearly unnoticeable) early on (as I messaged Tre directly and said I didn't mind miscasts). However, I love them so much as they are probably my favorite horseback barbarian dudes ever, that I would have no problem paying metal prices for them. ($15-$20)

I'm sure Tre could set up a 'pre order' system for converting the trollcast figs back to metal, and when he has enough 'pre orders' to pay for the costs of a particular mold, then go ahead and do them. I would not mind waiting to get more of those horsemen. As it stands, I have a unit of the ones I got from KS1 and then a sad lumpy unit of GW Marauder Horsemen who just look awful in comparison that I would love to replace with more of Tre's badass guys. And I only have one unit of twelve unarmored helsvakt horde guys and definitely would like another unit.

I suggested to Tre that he and Ed put up the mistcasts for sale as grab bags of items. At least you could recoup some costs from the venture rather than throwing out the material. Plus, people who buy the bags know ahead of time they won't be getting perfect items, so it works out nicely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: If Tre is still up for working with Ed, he might be able to work out something in regards to sculpting some of Ed's alien range (the trickier sculpts), but it looks like he'll be busy mostly with the Mierce kickstarter from here on out. Darnit.

Yeah, I'd totally buy a bag or three of 'miscasts'.

I'd also be up for some miscasts. Not in a "get cheap stuff from Tre" sort of way, I just think he should know that he doesn't have to write off that product.

Thanks guys. We are goign to work somethign out with the extras. There are a LOT of perfectly usable figures that had to be cast with other figures ( due to the family molding ) so we are going to work out a way to sell those to recoup some cost.

As for the Horses.....well If I make metal horses it won;t be with these sculpts. I was actually quite disappointed in myself with those. Further I was not really happy with most of the sculpts in the KS and hence I am seriosuly considering a total metal re-launch of the HelsVakt with all new hordesmen a proper cavalry, shield maidens and archers. But I won;t launch any funding efforts until ll of the sculpting and at least some of the mastering is done.

BUT all that comes ONLY after finishing up my current obligations.

 tre manor wrote:


Thanks guys. We are goign to work somethign out with the extras. There are a LOT of perfectly usable figures that had to be cast with other figures ( due to the family molding ) so we are going to work out a way to sell those to recoup some cost.

As for the Horses.....well If I make metal horses it won;t be with these sculpts. I was actually quite disappointed in myself with those. Further I was not really happy with most of the sculpts in the KS and hence I am seriosuly considering a total metal re-launch of the HelsVakt with all new hordesmen a proper cavalry, shield maidens and archers.

Ultimately, it's your line so do what you enjoy and you find rewarding in multiple senses of the word. I'd humbly suggest though that you've already partially satisfied the appetite of some barbarian players and it may be a more lucrative choice to do other lines you've neglected in the meantime rather than redoing what you just spent the last year doing.

With the leftover miniatures separate the good from the bad and sell the good ones individually (weapons needed) and the bad can be made into grab bags or sold as lots (all four Krigare, Helsvakt and Helsvakt Horsemen for example). I don't mind your sculpts for this KS, but I am definitely interested in the next KS if you're going to redo the line!

Fool me thrice shame on?

dodicula wrote:
Fool me thrice shame on?

While I love RBG and love the stuff Tre puts out, yeah, I sort of agree anyway. :/

OK........ I am not fooling anyone guys. The first KS problems have had NOTHING to do with anything I could have prevented or changed. I gave Ed the Sculpts I have given Ed the numbers and I am sat to wait until the product arrives. Ed has had his own hurtles to overcome and I am not attempting to pi n all of this on Ed but I have done everythign I can to make this project deliver faster and there is nothing else I can do. It was totally out of my hands I am along for the ride just like everyone else. I spent 7 years building my reputation and my relationship with you guys before the KS. I REALLY thought I had something when I set that campaign up. I never set out to ruin my business.

The set backs in KS 2 are the typical set-backs that happen all the time behind the scenes that you never hear or see anything about. I cannot tell you how many times in the past i have had to delay releases while things were fixed or remolded. Remember the Nannulf figure? That figure was first molded 6 months before it was actually released and was molded by three different contractors. Ymir the White? molded 3 times and took 3 months to release. Hogni's hunters molded twice by two different services and took 2 months to release.

These are just the examples I can think of off the top of my head. Thankfully for me when this was going on all of these items were not in the same release nor was the entire affair public knowledge. Things happen during production that cannto always be foreseen and any delay cause a chain reaction.

Now when you add the kind of work load that KS creates into the mix then suddenly you have a potential disaster pending. Add to that that there is also a time limit and that exacerbates the situation. Then add on to that that there are very FEW molding and casting contractors int he US market to work with....Only two of them are industrial level. These contractors have work flowing out of their ears right now because of Kickstarter. So any trip up in your process can throw your work weeks out of the schedule just because that the queue has to keep moving.

I am not fooling anyone, I am not lying, I am not misrepresenting. I am telling everyone EXACTLY what is going on as it happens.

The reason that KS 3 is so limited is because I can predict the outcome of this with very close certainty. The project is small enough that it can fit into the work load of my contractor ( Valiant ) without being a disruption. If anything goes wrong it is limited enough that any fixes should occur very, very quickly, I will get everything I need to fulfill in one shot and the mastering is already done.


I cannot apologize enough for the disaster of the first KS. I really truly am sorry guys. It is profoundly embarrassing and has been a huge disruption to my daily life for the past 15 months. I will NEVER make those mistakes again that I can assure you of.

i hear you, Tre...
we all have unforseen events thrown at us in our business and personal lives...
you have not buried your head in the sand and disappeared...
i respect that...
you are a great sculptor, and have some loyal fans...

it may have hurt your pride, but it hasn't killed your business...
there are still people willing to give you another chance...
i know it is embarrasing to have your problems aired in public, but it does help people to be more understanding of the issues that cause delays...

once things get sorted out, and all the backers get their minis, it will be much easier to carry on...
almost there, bud...
stay strong, and keep sculpting awesome minis...

cheers
jah

I wasn't part of ks1 but I am part of ks2. I've received most of what I pledged for, which looks great btw, as can anyone who pays for split shipping, so I wonder how anyone could have been fooled. And tre's summed up above what kickstarter is all about... helping to get stuff to retail and being along for a ride that includes all the usual hassle involved.

Smells like trolling to me.

Tre,

I think you over-estimate the damage that KS1 did to your business.

What prevents me from pledging for this Kickstarter is the realization that all of your figures come in the special "RBG scale" which is too small to be on a table with anything but historicals. Mind you, I like the proportions of the miniatures, just not the height. Miniatures with proportions as fine as these need to be probably 30% larger in order to not look out of place with the vast majority of miniatures out there.

I am aware of your reasons for choosing this special size and scale combo, but I think you may be over-estimating how much damage your late fulfillment of KS1 is doing to your business, and grossly under-estimating how much damage your unique scale is doing to your business. RBG figures just don't look good on the table with any other fantasy miniatures outside of LOTR.

Tre's business is to specifically make figures in the "RBG" scale. That IS his business. He would probably sell more figures if he sculpted in standard heroic scale, but that's not what he wants to do for his company based on what I've seen him say before.

As a fan of the sculpts it is annoying that they don't match most of anything I have, but I can't fault Tre for making the models he wants to make and the people who want to buy them.

I am glad this KS seems to be a bit more of a success. I think you have the right idea with this, as it's a smaller scale project that can be achieved realistically and does exactly what it says when it was set out. I can see clearly that you have learned the harsh lessons from the first KS and even from the second one. I'm really glad, because I am a massive fan of your work and want to keep buying it!

As to scale, to be honest, I love it. It's so much nicer to work with realistic proportions than the outsized freaks that get made more commonly. Rather than lose a customer in me, you've caused GW to lose one (mostly) as I am moving my collection to your more realistic scale. I have started collecting Historicals mostly to have troops that fit in with your stuff and I'm really happy I finally made the change. I intend playing with your guys as dramatic heroes or elites in my historical games and also experimenting with a more "historical" dark ages fantasy that fits what I want from my fantasy game more than WFB's OTT grimdark or PP's hyper powered steam fantasy.

So, one whole hearted thumbs up from me.

I will say though, I can understand the frustration of those waiting so long for KS1 items. I think you've done really well in answering criticism, but it's to be expected that it would make people really grumpy, having stuff be that delayed. It doesn't help that KS2 is also "late", even if the delays are much more realistic. The lesson seems well and truly learned for this KS which has a very realistic timeframe. Don't let it get to you, and keep doing what you're doing.

Tre, it is good that you are not pinning it on Ed, as from what I've seen it's been a combination of choices that you made / things that you requested, along with his difficulty in getting things produced. So, both sides had a role, and it is good that both sides have accepted blame and tried their very hardest to make amends.

I completely agree with Gallahad that it has not ruined your reputation as much as you think. Keep pushing forward, take on some commissions as you continue to work on your own range, and this new campaign has already funded!

I really look forward to seeing you ship all of the KS1 boxes without horses, and so having that completely finished except for that one item. That item is pretty much a microcosm for all of the issues- you wanted it cast as a single piece, Ed tried a new method to do so and cast up a ton of them, you got them but were then unhappy with what should have been an obvious result of the method of casting them as a single piece- air bubbles in the bellies. I have some of these from a pledge that I bought out, and am thrilled with them! And honestly, I don't know if you shipped some back to Ed, or used all the ones you received, but with indecision on that front now you're offering credit for the horses, and I guess hoping to get a small restock from Ed to supply the last folks who still wanted them rather than credit.

Personally, I give you both a ton of props for continuing to work through this together, and for being civil, and for both taking the blame for it! So like I said, I really am looking forward to hearing that the KS1 boxes have all been shipped, and credit given for the horses, or the last few horses shipped separately later. It will really be good to have this finished, for everybody, and as you can see it is not keeping your newer campaigns from doing well- KS2 raised 50% of KS1, and this one is doing really well (and is funded!) with just 6 sculpts. There is demand for your work, so just finish out that first campaign as you've said you will do, and keep your chin up!

I am a big supporter of you both, and will continue to be so, as will many here- just finish out KS1 as you have promised to do quickly here.

Heh, yeah, it's a common thing I see that people are delighted with Tre's sculpts but he's unhappy and wants to go back and fix something. I have no doubt that that perfectionism is what makes his stuff so bloody amazing, but I think it must be a tough time living with it and rarely being happy with the first pass on something

OK, people will need to be certain that they're following Rule #1 here on Dakka Dakka - and in this thread in particular.

 Gallahad wrote:
Tre,

I think you over-estimate the damage that KS1 did to your business.

What prevents me from pledging for this Kickstarter is the realization that all of your figures come in the special "RBG scale" which is too small to be on a table with anything but historicals. Mind you, I like the proportions of the miniatures, just not the height. Miniatures with proportions as fine as these need to be probably 30% larger in order to not look out of place with the vast majority of miniatures out there.

Pretty much this. I wish Tre made, I dunno, 35 mm truescale figures.They look great, they just don't work with anything else I own. If they were a bit bigger with the same proportions it would be great.

Here's an idea for the next Kickstarter.

Retool the existing Helsvekt models from KS1. Or just 6 of them. If no-one backs it, no harm/no foul. If it gets funded, (and it will) then obviously there's still a market for them.

Skip the arguments/excuses that you've sold all you ever with of those moulds/the market is saturated - if that were true it would have always been true regardless of how successful/unsuccessful the first fulfilment was. Besides, you always sold to retailers as well as off your website.

You say you want to redo them? Sure, but how about this instead. Sculpt more of them. Not replacements, but additions. Alternate between KS for new figures, like these, and retooling the KS1 models. Use the downtime for sculpting more and different stuff for your own range, and for commissions to keep money coming in.

Don't keep resculpting the same models that others are happy with. if you want to do more of them - fine, but replacing them you just end up a dog chasing it's own tail and not getting anywhere.

The best part of this suggestion to retool the Helsvakt into metal? If I'm wrong and it's a load of bs - then it simply won't fund.

 Azazelx wrote:
Here's an idea for the next Kickstarter.

Retool the existing Helsvekt models from KS1. Or just 6 of them. If no-one backs it, no harm/no foul. If it gets funded, (and it will) then obviously there's still a market for them.

Skip the arguments/excuses that you've sold all you ever with of those moulds/the market is saturated - if that were true it would have always been true regardless of how successful/unsuccessful the first fulfilment was. Besides, you always sold to retailers as well as off your website.

You say you want to redo them? Sure, but how about this instead. Sculpt more of them. Not replacements, but additions. Alternate between KS for new figures, like these, and retooling the KS1 models. Use the downtime for sculpting more and different stuff for your own range, and for commissions to keep money coming in.

Don't keep resculpting the same models that others are happy with. if you want to do more of them - fine, but replacing them you just end up a dog chasing it's own tail and not getting anywhere.

The best part of this suggestion to retool the Helsvakt into metal? If I'm wrong and it's a load of bs - then it simply won't fund.

Good points. I do guess that people might be unhappy with their newly bought figures when they hear that the sculptor isn't happy with them, didn't really want to release them but want to re-do them. I think that such statements could unfortunately shun people away. Say that you really like your sculpts, but that you will focus even more energy in bringing out new additions to them!

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 Gallahad wrote:
Tre,

I think you over-estimate the damage that KS1 did to your business.

What prevents me from pledging for this Kickstarter is the realization that all of your figures come in the special "RBG scale" which is too small to be on a table with anything but historicals. Mind you, I like the proportions of the miniatures, just not the height. Miniatures with proportions as fine as these need to be probably 30% larger in order to not look out of place with the vast majority of miniatures out there.

Pretty much this. I wish Tre made, I dunno, 35 mm truescale figures.They look great, they just don't work with anything else I own. If they were a bit bigger with the same proportions it would be great.

Exactly! I think I would be buying exclusively RBG figures if that were the case as they hit every design/setting aesthetic perfectly for my tastes...except for the size. I mean, Tre's sculpting of human musculature and expressive faces is just so fantastic. I just like and own lots of other fantasy miniatures as well, and want them to look nice together.

 RiTides wrote:
Tre, it is good that you are not pinning it on Ed, as from what I've seen it's been a combination of choices that you made / things that you requested, along with his difficulty in getting things produced. So, both sides had a role, and it is good that both sides have accepted blame and tried their very hardest to make amends.

I completely agree with Gallahad that it has not ruined your reputation as much as you think. Keep pushing forward, take on some commissions as you continue to work on your own range, and this new campaign has already funded!

I really look forward to seeing you ship all of the KS1 boxes without horses, and so having that completely finished except for that one item. That item is pretty much a microcosm for all of the issues- you wanted it cast as a single piece, Ed tried a new method to do so and cast up a ton of them, you got them but were then unhappy with what should have been an obvious result of the method of casting them as a single piece- air bubbles in the bellies. I have some of these from a pledge that I bought out, and am thrilled with them! And honestly, I don't know if you shipped some back to Ed, or used all the ones you received, but with indecision on that front now you're offering credit for the horses, and I guess hoping to get a small restock from Ed to supply the last folks who still wanted them rather than credit.

Personally, I give you both a ton of props for continuing to work through this together, and for being civil, and for both taking the blame for it! So like I said, I really am looking forward to hearing that the KS1 boxes have all been shipped, and credit given for the horses, or the last few horses shipped separately later. It will really be good to have this finished, for everybody, and as you can see it is not keeping your newer campaigns from doing well- KS2 raised 50% of KS1, and this one is doing really well (and is funded!) with just 6 sculpts. There is demand for your work, so just finish out that first campaign as you've said you will do, and keep your chin up!

I am a big supporter of you both, and will continue to be so, as will many here- just finish out KS1 as you have promised to do quickly here.

QTF! There's very little I can add here, think you got my sentiments regarding this down perfectly!

I have been a huge fan of Tre's work for quite awhile. Besides the quality of the minis, what brought me to buy most of Tres line is the scale of the miniatures. I have received all of my KS1 and most of my KS2. I don't have any complaints. I am building a game to run just using his miniatures, so please don't listen to people wanting you to change scales.Tre is in learning mode and I believe he will come out of this wiser and stronger. I'm looking forward to seeing his vision for Dark Elves.

Yeah, have to agree, I like Tre's scale. I can't stand GW's out of proportion scaled figures. They also fit in nicely with my Rackham Miniatures and a lot of the Mantic Undead.

The only GW I own is LOTR miniatures and not very many of them. I have been gaming and collecting minatures for 35 years and have never cared for GW. Just my own preferance for smaller and more realistic scales. (yes, I know it is fantasy)

 Gallahad wrote:
Tre,

I think you over-estimate the damage that KS1 did to your business.

What prevents me from pledging for this Kickstarter is the realization that all of your figures come in the special "RBG scale" which is too small to be on a table with anything but historicals. Mind you, I like the proportions of the miniatures, just not the height. Miniatures with proportions as fine as these need to be probably 30% larger in order to not look out of place with the vast majority of miniatures out there.

If they were 30% larger, they would be out of scale with other 28-30mm miniatures.

The industry is clearly moving towards finer, more realistic proportioning in table top miniatures. The skills of sculptors have grown and manufacturing techniques are making finer details easier and easier to capture. Tre Manor has been on the bleeding edge of this movement, in my opinion. And he's kept his entire line beholden to an internally consistent scale, which is awesome.

Some companies are sticking with an older style of more 'heroic' (dis)proportioned miniatures. The miniatures aren't taller than Tre's miniatures, they just have wildly inaccurate proportions; swollen bobble heads and giant ham fists. They are like cartoon monsters. And if you like that style, that's great. Some people do.

One of the reasons I support RBG is that I want more table top miniatures to have realistic proportions. I don't want to see a certain large manufacturer dictate artistic trends with its market share. For a small company like RBG, there are costs associated with bucking the long-established market trends. If my custom can help to defray those costs and keep what I feel is an innovative company in business, to me that's a reward all its own.

While I totally agree about not changing scale, it would make 100% sense (from the customer's point of view, at least) for there to be a ruler shown, or at least a height measurement given, for the figures. Unfortunately, despite this being requested a lot this is rarely done by Tre.

The Dire Wolves compared to Fenris, both from KS1, were the most interesting to me. I got both, and love both, but Fenris is several times larger than the dire wolves. From the pictures (perhaps the way they're cropped?) it is really, really hard to tell this drastic difference.

My point is that, even within Tre's own line, it's hard to know the size of the model you will be getting. Now that I'm familiar with it more, I am confident I know about how tall those human models are... but for most things I'm still just guessing (for instance, the size difference between goblin footmen and bonebacks... I know there's a difference, but I kind of have to guess about it and hope I end up right, or just order a few to get a size comparison myself before buying the rest).

I'm not sure what the models are listed as normally, but it should be no more than 25mm, and even that may be too high. The main issue for me is that there is no way to know what the size of a particular model you haven't gotten from Tre before is- he is staying true to his idea for each unit but that idea, and most importantly that size, is not always communicated.

Anyway, all that to say, I love the proportions of these minis, but you really do need to use them on their own, with just a few exceptions. Well worth doing so, imo, but people new to the range usually have no idea of this fact as it is not listed clearly anywhere (imo, at least).

I too like miniatures with more realistic proportions. I would just prefer Tre's miniatures were larger. There are many examples of great miniatures out there with realistic proportions that are taller than Tre's RBG stuff. 28mm is not some magical height above which a miniature becomes a hamfisted bobble head.

If Tre were to increase the scale of his miniatures while keeping the same proportions we all enjoy, 1) Everybody who likes miniatures with realistic proportions would still be happy 2)People with large existing collections in more current scales would be happy since Tre's miniatures could now be used alongside their current miniatures 3)The only people unhappy would be people who have fantasy collections in primarily the 25mm scale.

Do you think group 2) or group 3) is larger?

Again, realistic proportions are not tied to any one scale. You can have miniatures that stand 35mm tall with super realistic proportions, and miniatures that stand 25mm tall with super realistic proportions.

As an extra bonus, it is much easier to paint miniatures with realistic proportions when they are in larger scales.