Ever since the new bugs came out, I've been curious about how competitive a 9-carnifex Tyranid build would do. I finally decided to do a test game. Now I've gone against Taudar a few times, but I haven't gone against pure Eldar yet. Since I also have a Eldar army laying around, I decided to do a test game with another very competitive army - mechdar! I think a good test for a competitive army is not by how well they can do against a normal army. Rather, it is by how well they can do against a top-tier tournament army and I can tell you, mechdar is truly a top-tier tournament army.
In this battle, I will actually be playing both armies. There are some pitfalls to doing this: 1) there will be no surprises as both armies will know what each other are going to do and 2) there are more chances for mistakes because now you have to know the rules as well as plan out the strategies for 2 armies instead of just 1. However, there are also advantages as well:
1) Convenience. I can play this out anytime. Don't need to schedule it with anyone.
2) Very few people in my area will have the exact army that I want to test my army out against. No one here runs pure Mechdar except for me.
3) I am a skilled general with both armies. So there will be no claims of "oh, that guy didn't know how to run his army" or "he played very poorly with his army". In this battle, skill will not be a factor (i.e. both "generals" will be equally good). Only the armies themselves and the dice will decide the game.
Ok, here are my thoughts about the 9-carnifex Tyranid list. It is NOT a competitive Tyranid build. Now don't get me wrong. Do not confuse not competitive to mean weak. Actually, it is a very strong Tyranid build. If the opponent's army isn't built to be able handle that many monstrous creatures, he will be overwhelmed. However, what I mean by not competitive is that it just is not a balanced army. It cannot handle a wide range of threats that most balanced Take-All-Comer's lists are designed to do. In essense, it is a deathstar-type list that will either pound you into submission if you don't have the tools to handle it or it will potentially lose big time if you do.
As for mechdar, it is currently one of the strongest and most balanced spam-lists around. It's got mad firepower and the mobility to easily get away from the bugs. The question here really is this: which is greater - Tyranid resiliency or Eldar firepower? In this case, getting 2 Catalysts for the flyrants will help immensely. That will greatly improve the Tyranid's chances in this matchup. As long as tyranids can survive against Eldar shooting, they will eventually catch those serpents and wreck them like no one else's business. However, that is the main question - can they survive long enough to make it into assault with the Eldar.
My hypothesis here is that mechdar should be able to win this one, but thanks to Catalyst and Dawn of War deployment, tyranids should be able to give them a scare before finally succumbing to their superior firepower.
Man, what I wouldn't give for some S7 brainleech devourers. Tyranids sure could use them this game.
See lists above for Psychic Powers and the Warlord traits.
Night-fight in effect.
Map of the terrain, with the bastion already placed.
The 2 orange chips are the Emperor's Will objectives.
Black chips are the Crusade objectives.
Tyranid deployment. All gants are in reserves.
Eldar split up their forces....
....and deploy in 2 opposite corners.
For Eldar, this is my strategy. I want to split up the Tyranid forces. That is how you play against certain deathstar-type lists. They have limited resources and most of them need to be together for the greatest effect. Split them up and now they are weaker without support from each other. Mechdar, on the other hand, works fine independently or together. That is why they are so good. They are just as effective either ways and have the mobility to easily change their deployment should they choose to.
Tyranids advance. Flyrants swoop 12". BTW, they would be casting Catalyst each and every turn.
Zoan embarks into the bastion.
In hindsight, without SMS around, it may be better just to hide him behind the bastion instead.
Carnifexes run.
Eldar 1
Spoiler:
Farseer would cast Forewarning + Prescience on 1 wraithknight (WK) and Guide on the other. He would do this every turn that he is able to.
Eldar then move.
On the Eldar right flank, the serpents split up.
One of the serpents then move flat-out into the Tyranid deployment zone.
Between poor serpent shield rolling and good Tyranid saves (and FNP's), the right carnifexes (from the Eldar perspective) only take 1W from Eldar shooting.
Then to the left, the carnifexes only take 2W to Eldar shooting.
Eldar only deal a total of 3 Wounds to the carnifexes. However, this is a great round for the Eldar. Why?
Both wraithknights shoot at the bastion....and they end up killing the zoanthrope inside with a S10 hit!!!
Say goodbye to Synapse!
That's why in hindsight, I should have just hidden the zoan behind the bastion like I normally do instead of putting him in it.
Eldar also get First Blood.
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2.
Damn, losing the zoanthrope is going to hurt.
4 squads of gants come in.
My Warlord perils while casting Catalyst, though it still goes off.
Tyranids charge forwards.
The Warlord, on the other hand, goes to give the left carnifexes some synapse coverage. Fortunately, he is also able to make it into the rear arc of the wave serpent.
Despite a 3+ cover save, the flyrant still manages to blow up the serpent with a penetrating shot. 1 dire avenger dies in the explosion.
Right carnifexes run.
Tyranids are forced to fire the flyrant and dakkafexes at the wave serpent and still are not able to put it down. The serpent made 6 out of 8 4+ cover saves!!!
Lastly, the gants run, though most of them get low run rolls.
Eldar 2
Spoiler:
There is no where to run so the WK's prepare for assault.
Serpents spread out some more.
Dires go after the gants (without synapse). Well, actually 1 unit is within synapse range of the flyrant.
1 serpent fires and kills 1 whole carnifex just by itself! Of course, there is no FNP on this unit this turn, but I just flat-out rolled poorly for it, failing 4 out of 4 3+ saves.
Here, serpents combine to knock the flyrant from the sky and to put 3W on him.
But first, WK's shoot at the carnifexes, insta-killing 1 of them and putting 1W on the other.
Bugs catch a little bit of a break as only 1 WK makes the charge. The other one needed to make a 6" charge but failed with only a 4" charge move.
In combat, the carnifexes fare poorly. With re-rolls to hit, the WK kills 1 carnifex before it could strike. The other one then piles in but could not make it into base with the WK, thus effectively ending that round of combat.
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
Without Synapse, 2 units of gants break and fall back.
Carnifexes also fail synapse. Fortunately, they are just going to move towards the nearest enemy in order to try to assault it.
Due to the lack of synapse in the backfield, I decide to move my Warlord off the table only to have him come in next turn to rally my troops. So on his way off the table, he vector strikes and kills 3 dire avengers.
After casting Catalyst, flyrant swoops towards the wave serpents. If he's going to die, he's going to take one of those serpents with him.
Let's make this a 4-on-1.
Gants move and then shoot down the lone avenger.
Flyrant takes down the damaged serpent. The avengers spilling out then gets pinned.
Carnifexes have got this right?
Wrong. 16 S9 attacks....and they only do 2W to the WK! The WK makes something like 6-7 4++ saves!!!
My goodness! To play one of the best armies currently....and then have dice like that! First the serpent and now the WK making these types of saves?!? Wow!
Eldar 3
Spoiler:
Bugs catch a little break. One of the serpents immobilizes itself while trying to move out of terrain.
WK goes to help out the other WK, but not before the farseer cast Forewarning and Prescience on him.
Serpents spread out.
The other serpent moves away from the fexes. It then puts another 1W on the carnifexes.
Farseer gets away. He would later turbo-boost towards the middle.
As expected, serpents shoot down the flyrant.
WK then makes it into assault. Now its 4-on-2.
The battle ends in 1 dead WK and 2 dead carnifexes.
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
The Warlord comes back in and rallies all the gants.
He then shoots at the serpent heading towards the Tyranid objective. However, the serpent makes both of its saves.
Last unit of gants come in as well.
Carnifexes fail IB once again and moves towards the immobilized serpent.
That is actually not what I wanted to do. I actually wanted to move them in the opposite direction....towards the objective where the other serpent was.
For the 2nd turn in a row, the carnifexes would fail their charge through difficult terrain.
Combat is a draw here.
Eldar 4
Spoiler:
Serpent moves deeper into Tyranid territory.
Avengers make a move towards their Emperor's Will objective.
The far-right serpent goes after the gants to prevent them from reaching the objective.
Shooting by the serpents put a couple of wounds on the fexes.
Avengers run to make it onto their objectives.
Serpent shoots down 7 gants.
Finally, the far-right serpent shoots down 6 gants.
However, without synapse there, they break and fall back.
WK is winning this battle of attrition thanks to Prescience and 4++.
Tyranids 5
Spoiler:
Overview of what could potentially be the last game turn.
Flyrant decides that it needs to take out the serpent. It gets ready to assault.
Gants scramble for the objectives.
Even after running, however, they are out of range of this objective.
At last, carnifexes should make it into assault.
Shooting from the flyrant takes off 2 Hull Points from the serpent.
He then assaults.....
....and kills only the 3rd wave serpent of the game. The unit inside gets pinned.
Well, make that 4 serpents.
Lastly, the WK finishes off the dakkafex and then consolidates 6" towards bug territory.
Eldar 5
Spoiler:
In a potentially game-winning move, the WK goes to both contest the Tyranid Emperor's Will objective and also to try to take out the Tyranid Warlord.
The Laughseer turbo-boosts to contest a Crusade objective.
Avengers and serpent will deal with the fexes. BTW, if you hadn't noticed, the avengers also form a screen to try to prevent the fexes from advancing towards the Eldar Emperor's Will objective.
Wave serpent drops off its troops onto a Crusade objective.
Shooting kills 1 carnifex.
The WK takes off another 2W from the flyrant with shooting.
Serpent shoots down 5 gants to make sure they are not grabbing the objective.
The WK then charges in.
With Prescience, 4++ and T8, it is just too much for the 1W flyrant to deal with. WK takes out the flyrant and then consolidate back into contesting range of the Tyranid EW objective.
There is no need to go on. The victory is decisive.
Both Tyranid objectives are contested.
Eldar takes both the Primary, Emperor's Will, and the Secondary, Crusade.
In addition, they've got First Blood (zoanthrope), Warlord and Linebreaker (wraithknight, dire avengers). Tyranids have only got Linebreaker (carnifex).
coredump wrote: If this is anything short of a massacre, I will be amazed. Just kill the zoan on turn 1; and then all the fexes will start killing each other.
the x factor is upgrades/number of gaunts in this army. I'm assuming you spent at least 1700 points from that picture in MCs, leaving you with enough points for like 70-80 gaunts. That could be good enough scoring and number of wounds, but the fexes are just going to be running at the serpents all game as they jet away and shoot/charge you with knights. I feel like the mobility of the eldar will get the better of the bugs on this one, even though 11 mcs is really durable esp with cover+shroud from a venomthrope.
I'll wait for the psychic powers. If those are all dakka fexes then he is going to need onslaught or the eldar can just kite him around all day shooting at whatever his troops are. First turn the eldar should kill at least one FHT if not both although it appears the center of the table has multiple BLOS pieces so maybe not. Need better pictures of the table.
So most of your recent tyranid strategies have involved some dastardly trick. How do you plan to trick yourself?
It is my philosophy that against high-level players, there really are no tricks. Good players should be able to see and anticipate what the other player is planning to do.
coredump wrote: If this is anything short of a massacre, I will be amazed. Just kill the zoan on turn 1; and then all the fexes will start killing each other.
If mechdar can get to the zoan with Dominion in a bastion.
Yup! Mechdar is competitive as heck, but I consider the 9-carnifex list more as a fun list than as a competitive one.
thanatos67 wrote: the x factor is upgrades/number of gaunts in this army. I'm assuming you spent at least 1700 points from that picture in MCs, leaving you with enough points for like 70-80 gaunts. That could be good enough scoring and number of wounds, but the fexes are just going to be running at the serpents all game as they jet away and shoot/charge you with knights. I feel like the mobility of the eldar will get the better of the bugs on this one, even though 11 mcs is really durable esp with cover+shroud from a venomthrope.
Nids are running 50 termagants for their troops.
Red Corsair wrote: I'll wait for the psychic powers. If those are all dakka fexes then he is going to need onslaught or the eldar can just kite him around all day shooting at whatever his troops are. First turn the eldar should kill at least one FHT if not both although it appears the center of the table has multiple BLOS pieces so maybe not. Need better pictures of the table.
Yeah 50 gaunts is fairly low, I guess the one upside is thats only 200 points so you should have some decent kit on all the big guys. big guns would be not a bad mission for nids, but then again wraithknights are virtually impossible for nids to kill outside of close combat, and even then the combat is risky because of how solid the knight is in cc. Serpent spam is probably, generally speaking, one of the nid codex's worst matchup, maybe even worse than tau due to their lack of mobile/long range anti-armor.
List vs list, eldar without a doubt. Devourers wounding WKs on 6's and glancing serpents on 6's just doesn't hack it. WKs waiting in terrain means nids always strike last.
One player using both armies never works out like a real game tho. It's literally impossible to play both sides objectively making tactical decisions and adjusting on the fly.
Be prepared for heavy criticism from readers if any movement/target priority choices favor one army.
thanatos67 wrote: Yeah 50 gaunts is fairly low, I guess the one upside is thats only 200 points so you should have some decent kit on all the big guys. big guns would be not a bad mission for nids, but then again wraithknights are virtually impossible for nids to kill outside of close combat, and even then the combat is risky because of how solid the knight is in cc. Serpent spam is probably, generally speaking, one of the nid codex's worst matchup, maybe even worse than tau due to their lack of mobile/long range anti-armor.
Yeah, WK's are a problem for tyranids nowadays. Only the Swarmlord can reliably dispose of them but the Swarmlord just isn't commonplace anymore.
Serpent-spam defintely ranks up there along with DE venom-spam and triptide/O'vesa-star Tau as some of the hardest matchups for bugs. Heck, serpent-spam mechdar ranks up there as one of the toughest armies for most other armies to face.
hyv3mynd wrote: List vs list, eldar without a doubt. Devourers wounding WKs on 6's and glancing serpents on 6's just doesn't hack it. WKs waiting in terrain means nids always strike last.
One player using both armies never works out like a real game tho. It's literally impossible to play both sides objectively making tactical decisions and adjusting on the fly.
Be prepared for heavy criticism from readers if any movement/target priority choices favor one army.
But I promise that I won't take it easy on my opponent.
Yeah, there are some pit-falls about self-played games. You're bound to make mistakes as you have to play 2 armies. However, there are also advantages as well, such as no one else in my area plays these types of extreme armies and that I will probably play them better than most even if I do make mistakes.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.
Why would it be a pity?
I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.
A litmus test of how good an army build is isn't how well it can do against Joe Schmoe but rather, how well it can do against Johnny the Champ.
Last time I faced Tyranids that used 1 unit of 3 Dakkafexes, they (fexes) ate my WK in CC. I must admit I underestimated them a little bit.
Depends heavily on the mission but I still think Eldar are gonna win it. They are just too mobile, have stronger shooting (including superior range obviously, otherwise the nids have actually more shots )
and 2 MCs themselves that can kill any single enemy MC.
Unless they are in a unit of 3.
As awesome as I think 9 carnifexes are, there is no way tyranids can beat Mechdar short of the dice gods showing up beforehand and putting in trick dice.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.
Why would it be a pity?
I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.
Isn't it hard to draw a conclusion about the competitiveness of a previously untested list if it it's first trial is a horrendous matchup? Wouldn't it be better to ease it in to get a better gauge of it's strength's and weaknesses?
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.
Why would it be a pity?
I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.
Isn't it hard to draw a conclusion about the competitiveness of a previously untested list if it it's first trial is a horrendous matchup? Wouldn't it be better to ease it in to get a better gauge of it's strength's and weaknesses?
You're assuming it is a horrendous matchup....but just how horrendous is it really?
We'll never know unless we can test it out.
And no need to ease things in. I prefer to just dive right in. I already have a good idea of its strengths and weaknesses. I just need to test out my hypothesis with a tough matchup.
My money's on the Mechdar. 9 Carnifexes would be awfully slow, the Wraithknighs inflicting Instant Death with their Wraithcannons would probably pick a few off before they can reach the transports.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.
Why would it be a pity?
I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.
A litmus test of how good an army build is isn't how well it can do against Joe Schmoe but rather, how well it can do against Johnny the Champ.
To a degree yes. But there is a flaw in this reasoning. If I were testing out a new steel for making medieval arrow tips, I should test it's ability to penetrate armor of its time, not modern warfare flak like dragon scale for example.
I'm sure had the Polish cavalry not charged the blitzkrieg we could have still deemed cavalry is not competitive vs German tanks
In this batrep, the nids are the Polish cav, and I'll let you figure out who the Blitzkrieg tank wall is
I think it will be fun.. regardless. I give it to the eldar on speed but we will see. I've not had luck with the bastion so far. Only played two games with it but it got shot first in both games and my vthrope died both times.
Oops... I was basing my assumptions on only the pictures, which did not include a bastion.
Kind of silly, because they also didn't include any troops... and only came to about 1700-1750 pts....
Still think synapse is weak link. Probably advise heavily targeting the flyrants. If Eldar does nothing but remove one flyant a turn with all of that shooting, that should be enough.
Roci wrote: I think it will be fun.. regardless. I give it to the eldar on speed but we will see. I've not had luck with the bastion so far. Only played two games with it but it got shot first in both games and my vthrope died both times.
I almost never deploy anything in the bastion to start. In most cases, I hide my venom/zoan behind it and then move in on my Turn 1. This way, they can't shoot at the bastion if it is unoccupied.
Then by the time they get in, my opponent will have to worry about my advancing flyrants and a host of other fast Tyranid threats that they won't have time to shoot at the bastion.
Also, in this particular game, due to the lack of AP2 shooting in the Eldar army, I actually embark my zoan in the bastion instead and hide my venom behind (whereas in my other games, it is usually the other way around). The zoan with its 3++ save is much more survivable inside the bastion than the venom.
I'm really looking forward to seeing how this one played out. I'm a massive Fex fan and would love to be able to use as many as physically possible in my games!
Roci wrote: I think it will be fun.. regardless. I give it to the eldar on speed but we will see. I've not had luck with the bastion so far. Only played two games with it but it got shot first in both games and my vthrope died both times.
I almost never deploy anything in the bastion to start. In most cases, I hide my venom/zoan behind it and then move in on my Turn 1. This way, they can't shoot at the bastion if it is unoccupied.
Here, we don't normally play Stronghold because it isn't allowed in the BAO/LVO format. Besides, I think the fortification rules in the Stronghold book itself is actually optional (they say they highly recommend it or something).
Otherwise, you can have shenanigans like genestealers infiltrating inside a bastion to potentially come out and assault on Turn 1.
9 Dakkafexes vs Wraithknights first! Then you can describe some wannabe-as-good-psykers-as-eldar-but-can-only-add-1-strength-while-the-eldar-can-change-a-dozen-more-stats.
jy2 wrote: Here, we don't normally play Stronghold because it isn't allowed in the BAO/LVO format. Besides, I think the fortification rules in the Stronghold book itself is actually optional (they say they highly recommend it or something).
Otherwise, you can have shenanigans like genestealers infiltrating inside a bastion to potentially come out and assault on Turn 1.
No unit can assault the top of turn 1 as is and the stealers would only get the chance on the bottom of turn one. Of course if the bastion was that close to you you could block the door? Or blow up the bastion? Or even attack the bastion if it was unoccupied as the SA rules state.
I think the allies section of the main rulebook actually says allies are optional, but that hasn't stopped anybody.
It's a shame Reece won't let everyone play the SA rules. I understand not letting d-weapons in, but the rest of the book helps immensely those armies that are suffering at the moment.
From what you just said many people only play the rules their major tourneys allow and thus some people have a large impact on what is played and bought.
Ok, here are my thoughts about the 9-carnifex Tyranid list. It is NOT a competitive Tyranid build. Now don't get me wrong. Do not confuse not competitive to mean weak. Actually, it is a very strong Tyranid build. If the opponent's army isn't built to be able handle that many monstrous creatures, he will be overwhelmed. However, what I mean by not competitive is that it just is not a balanced army. It cannot handle a wide range of threats that most balanced Take-All-Comer's lists are designed to do. In essense, it is a deathstar-type list that will either pound you into submission if you don't have the tools to handle it or it will potentially lose big time if you do.
As for mechdar, it is currently one of the strongest and most balanced spam-lists around. It's got mad firepower and the mobility to easily get away from the bugs. The question here really is this: which is greater - Tyranid resiliency or Eldar firepower? In this case, getting 2 Catalysts for the flyrants will help immensely. That will greatly improve the Tyranid's chances in this matchup. As long as tyranids can survive against Eldar shooting, they will eventually catch those serpents and wreck them like no one else's business. However, that is the main question - can they survive long enough to make it into assault with the Eldar.
My hypothesis here is that mechdar should be able to win this one, but thanks to Catalyst and Dawn of War deployment, tyranids should be able to give them a scare before finally succumbing to their superior firepower.
Man, what I wouldn't give for some S7 brainleech devourers. Tyranids sure could use them this game.
Came to this thread thinking jy2 was coming to oklahoma city for a tournament (slobberknocker).. Stayed looking for pictures of turtles as objective markers..
C'mon. Get on with the power struggles over the turtles already.
Looks like a fun matchup if the fexs can corner the serpents then the nids have this, also the flyrants have some good mobility despite popular opinion and may be able to get some rear armour on them serpents.
skyfi wrote: Came to this thread thinking jy2 was coming to oklahoma city for a tournament (slobberknocker).. Stayed looking for pictures of turtles as objective markers..
C'mon. Get on with the power struggles over the turtles already.
Lol. It's pure coincidence for the title of my report and your tournament.
Arbiter wrote: Looks like a fun matchup if the fexs can corner the serpents then the nids have this, also the flyrants have some good mobility despite popular opinion and may be able to get some rear armour on them serpents.
Rear shots against a good mechdar player is tough. Most likely, those serpents are going to be parked right on their board edges.
jy2 wrote: Here, we don't normally play Stronghold because it isn't allowed in the BAO/LVO format. Besides, I think the fortification rules in the Stronghold book itself is actually optional (they say they highly recommend it or something).
Otherwise, you can have shenanigans like genestealers infiltrating inside a bastion to potentially come out and assault on Turn 1.
No unit can assault the top of turn 1 as is and the stealers would only get the chance on the bottom of turn one. Of course if the bastion was that close to you you could block the door? Or blow up the bastion? Or even attack the bastion if it was unoccupied as the SA rules state.
I think the allies section of the main rulebook actually says allies are optional, but that hasn't stopped anybody.
It's a shame Reece won't let everyone play the SA rules. I understand not letting d-weapons in, but the rest of the book helps immensely those armies that are suffering at the moment.
From what you just said many people only play the rules their major tourneys allow and thus some people have a large impact on what is played and bought.
IMO it is still too early for Stronghold and Escalation. Maybe at some future date, but if I was running a tournament, I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig for these meta-altering rules. Especially not with so much at stake.
Your eldar dice were really hot with the saves. Definitely not a positive thing for the nids.
Was there a specific reason you did not use the DA to kite the carnifexs earlier? It seems to me like the immobilized serpent could have had the DA pop out and start gunning the carnifexs down. Same with the DA behind the WK; one squad could pop out and help focus the enemy down while the other stays safe.
Your eldar dice were really hot with the saves. Definitely not a positive thing for the nids.
Was there a specific reason you did not use the DA to kite the carnifexs earlier? It seems to me like the immobilized serpent could have had the DA pop out and start gunning the carnifexs down. Same with the DA behind the WK; one squad could pop out and help focus the enemy down while the other stays safe.
That was a tough combo - a very good army and with good dice as well.
Yeah, I suppose I could have disembarked the DA earlier, but mechdar was never really in any real danger. You could kind of say that the Mechdar player was playing a little more relaxed than the Tyranid player.
However, if their saves weren't as hot, I'd probably actually have to consider disembarking those avengers earlier to help out.
I believe when the bastion suffers a glance or a pen, 1 model inside takes the hit per glance/pen as well. Then you roll on the damage table for the pens.
Moridan wrote: And I believe its just a S6 AP- hit from the falling debris, not the actual damage from the weapon hitting the Bastion.
I'd have to check my BRB. Don't have it with me. From what I recall, it doesn't actually specify the strength and AP. It just says that 1 model takes a hit as well.
The S6 hits are when you roll on the building damage charts, which is in addition to the "hit" you take from the glance/pen.
I'm fairly certain no strength value is applied to the wounds taken when a building suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, see BRBpg 93
When shooting at a building, roll To Hit and for armour
penetration normally. In close combat, they are hit
automatically.If a glancing hit is scored, one model
inside the building suffers a Wound with the Ignores
Cover special rule. Youcannot attack an unoccupied
building (withshooting or in close combat). If the building
suffers a penetrating hit, one model suffers a Wound
as for a glancing hit. Furthermore, roll on the building
damage table.
I think the wound is simply 'a wound with no cover save' not 'a wound at the strength and ap value of the weapon causing the hit.' So the zoey would essentially be taking four failed dangerous terrain tests (the equivalent). Still could die to that of course.
Thanks for quoting the rules. Hmmmm...you may be right. When it says that the model suffers a wound, I assumed it would be the same wound as that from the weapon that glanced/penned it. But now looking at the rules again, it does look like an auto-wound with no strength value.
He failed on the 3rd save. Would have had 1W left with 1 save left to make. Might have made the game closer.
Surprised the fex were so undergunned. I normally run screamerkillers with cluster spines when I want assault fexs so I can get 2 softeners and grenades. I3 ain't t great but still better than I1.
barnowl wrote: Surprised the fex were so undergunned. I normally run screamerkillers with cluster spines when I want assault fexs so I can get 2 softeners and grenades. I3 ain't t great but still better than I1.
That's the trade-off. More fexes for less upgrades.
Generally, my philosophy for list building is that "deathstar"-type units should not be more than 50% of your army, give or take a few points. Otherwise, you just can't build a balanced TAC army with it. The fexes here are 1170-pts, or 58.5% of the army. It is right at the threshold of being totally unbalanced, at least for me. Unfortunately, Tyranids need more "support" units than some of the other armies (i.e. eldar, necrons) because they have a "tax" called synapse that they've got to account for.
Besides, with the exception of the dakkafexes, you want to be running forwards with your fexes, not shooting. In that sense, giving them guns just slows them down.
jy2 wrote: Thanks for quoting the rules. Hmmmm...you may be right. When it says that the model suffers a wound, I assumed it would be the same wound as that from the weapon that glanced/penned it. But now looking at the rules again, it does look like an auto-wound with no strength value.
He failed on the 3rd save. Would have had 1W left with 1 save left to make. Might have made the game closer.
Well, any penetrating hits have a very good chance to cause alot of S6 wounds to him, so I dont think it would have been much of a difference.
I actually rolled a 3 on the damage charts for one of the pens, which goes up to 4 due to AP2. And actually, the zoan made all his saves against those S6 hits.
But I didn't roll for his last save because he failed his 3rd save from the "normal" pen/glance hit.
Reecius wrote: Wish I could say I was surprised by the result =(
Serpents are just too fast with too many shots.
I think the game would have been much closer had the dice been more even. For example, had Eldar saves been more "normal", tyranids would have killed 1 extra wave serpent and the WK probably a turn earlier.
Then again, dice is always a part of the game. As it was, bugs got smashed!
Try a rematch, then? The same setup, perhaps some tweaks on the bug side.
This batrep really shows why I don't like Serpent spam. It's such an incredibly easy army to play. Probably the easiest in the game currently. One of the most forgiving as well.
Nice report! I think you're right in saying that embarking the Zoanthrope was a mistake. It was a pretty big deal, really. One of those things that you just have to shake your head and move on, though it would have been less of an issue if you had taken two zoanthropes in the squad.
As to those saying Serpent Spam is too easy to play - it's definitely strong, but it takes skill to play it well. While it's a "forgiving" army to some extent, Jy2 played it the way he should have - spreading them out and creating difficult choices for the limited number of slow models available to the bugs.
In the hands of a mediocre/average player, I would not have been at all surprised to find the bugs won the game, as inept playing may have had the attitude of 'blowing them off the table with withering firepower' rather than smart movement to keep the fexes from doing too much damage. Bugs ended up killing nearly all of the Serpents regardless - an indifferently-skilled player would have lost their Serpents and left their troops in poor position to hold objectives in the endgame.
That said, I don't particularly relish the thought of playing against Serpent Spam at LVO, though I have a feeling that at least 4 games will include either Eldar or Tau.
(prove me wrong, matchup gods!!)
Jy2 - have you decided what army you're playing for LVO? If so, care to provide insight?
Araenion wrote: Try a rematch, then? The same setup, perhaps some tweaks on the bug side.
This batrep really shows why I don't like Serpent spam. It's such an incredibly easy army to play. Probably the easiest in the game currently. One of the most forgiving as well.
I've got other Tyranid builds I want to try out, including the new Tyranid dataslate formations, so you probably won't see a rematch anytime soon. If anything, the next time I run a carnifex-build, it'll most likely be a more balanced army with probably 2x2 dakkafexes at most.
With regards to mechdar, yeah, it is a very forgiving army. It is also a great army for beginners to play due to that and also to it being pretty straigh-forwards to play. However, as with any army, to play it well does require some skill, but the learning curve for such an army is definitely much easier than that for tyranids or some of the other non-spam armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xaereth wrote: Nice report! I think you're right in saying that embarking the Zoanthrope was a mistake. It was a pretty big deal, really. One of those things that you just have to shake your head and move on, though it would have been less of an issue if you had taken two zoanthropes in the squad.
As to those saying Serpent Spam is too easy to play - it's definitely strong, but it takes skill to play it well. While it's a "forgiving" army to some extent, Jy2 played it the way he should have - spreading them out and creating difficult choices for the limited number of slow models available to the bugs.
In the hands of a mediocre/average player, I would not have been at all surprised to find the bugs won the game, as inept playing may have had the attitude of 'blowing them off the table with withering firepower' rather than smart movement to keep the fexes from doing too much damage. Bugs ended up killing nearly all of the Serpents regardless - an indifferently-skilled player would have lost their Serpents and left their troops in poor position to hold objectives in the endgame.
That said, I don't particularly relish the thought of playing against Serpent Spam at LVO, though I have a feeling that at least 4 games will include either Eldar or Tau.
(prove me wrong, matchup gods!!)
Jy2 - have you decided what army you're playing for LVO? If so, care to provide insight?
I definitely think that skill/generalship > list. A more higly skilled general with an inferior army/list can still beat a lesser general with a better list most of the time. It's only when both generals are equally skilled where the list will give 1 player the advantage.
I'm very tempted to bring my Tyranids, though I don't have the army that I really want to run yet.
I'm definitely NOT going to be bringing mechdar.
So it's either going to be my wraithwing necrons or perhaps my non-Be'lakor daemons. Lol.
Of course, no army is auto-win, no-skill-required. However, give an average player a Tyranid or a Daemon army and he'll struggle. Give him Mechdar and assuming he knows the general rules for the game, he'll at least do well vs most opponents.
But beside that learning curve, tactics cap is also quite low. A great mechdar player might still be an average player in general, as the army after a while starts to play itself and has nowhere near as many subtleties and synergies as most other armies do.
Even with all that I probably wouldn't dislike as I do, if it weren't for the C: Eldar itself. The book has so many options and cool combinations that spamming 3 units across your army just seems like a waste. Not saying you shouldn't play it if that's your thing, I'm just explaining why I said I don't like it.
On the other hand, two weeks ago I had a game that proves your point, Jy2. It was a game with a friend of mine that gets whooped every time against my Eldar with his CSM. Last game I offered to switch. I know next to nothing about CSM, except how to fight against them. CSM list was pretty weak too, because he was preparing to fight a fluffy C:SM list but his opponent never showed. The only really competitive thing in CSM list was a Flying Daemon Prince, but even he had like 50 points of upgrades too many. I still ended up winning quite handily, even though he had a much better army. But he didn't use his mobility the way he was supposed to, forgot his assault moves and stuff like that. So it's true that while Eldar have a quick learning curve, that only applies if you're already a fairly good player in general and know your way around the game. With all those extra Eldar-specific rules, even after playing them for a better half of a decade, I still sometimes forget stuff.
For instance, I sacrificed my(actually his) 300-point Daemon Prince to kill off his(actually mine, lol) remaining Serpent. He thought that was stupid, but in the end when he had no mobility left, I think he saw the wisdom in why I did what I did.
Hey jy2, I'm a complete Nid novice here... I paint them for my son, but I've never run them. Would it have helped any to have replaced a couple (?) of gaunt units with a small warrior unit in order to give you some kind of back-field scoring synapse?
Great report by-the-way. I know what kind of effort goes into a report like this and I really appreciate it.
I just wish people would not jump to conclusions based on one match.
Jy2, do you think your carnifexes might have been more effective from range? Pitting them against 2 WK's was uncool
By that same token, does it bother anyone else that a farseer can have both prescience and guide? That's pretty unique, everyone else must choose either codex or brb powers.
@Naw
That is one of the few unqiue things the farseer gets. If not for that then farseers would be worse psykers than the majority of psyker HQs in the game.
@Jy2 and thread
Has anyone tried a prime in a unit of 3 carnifex's to buff them and hold synapse together for your slow elements (ie the other carnifex's). It would be incredibly durable and could give a huge synapse coverage with the crown, etc.
ansacs wrote: @Naw
That is one of the few unqiue things the farseer gets. If not for that then farseers would be worse psykers than the majority of psyker HQs in the game.
.
Do you actually believe what you wrote? You mean the same farseers that come ml3 stock with an invuln and free wargear that blocks perils? The same farseers that come with more wounds than nearly every other non-unique psykers in the game, with access to the fastest bikes in the game? Yeah without divination and runes of fate combined, they're total garbage.
Araenion wrote: Don't be nailing on my Seer, you hear? Your mind might incidentally blow up.
Joking aside, Farseers are stupendously good. If they were 30 points costlier, they'd still be good.
I just played a guy who has a Runepriest, Tigurius and Njal (410 points at least). They preciensed two units of FIVE Plasma Cannons and a unit of 5 missiles round after bloody round from inside a Fortress of Redemption. The Eldar can do this with Eldrad and a Farseer better pretty much for 305 points to their squads or their battle brothers.
mortetvie wrote: I have like 50 tyranid warriors lying around...maybe we should get a game in for fun to see if you spam enough of them if they have a chance!
That will definitely be an interesting army for sure. It's actually a very durable, if somewhat slow army.
Reminds of my GK army with 40 GK terminators.
Araenion wrote: Of course, no army is auto-win, no-skill-required. However, give an average player a Tyranid or a Daemon army and he'll struggle. Give him Mechdar and assuming he knows the general rules for the game, he'll at least do well vs most opponents.
But beside that learning curve, tactics cap is also quite low. A great mechdar player might still be an average player in general, as the army after a while starts to play itself and has nowhere near as many subtleties and synergies as most other armies do.
Even with all that I probably wouldn't dislike as I do, if it weren't for the C: Eldar itself. The book has so many options and cool combinations that spamming 3 units across your army just seems like a waste. Not saying you shouldn't play it if that's your thing, I'm just explaining why I said I don't like it.
On the other hand, two weeks ago I had a game that proves your point, Jy2. It was a game with a friend of mine that gets whooped every time against my Eldar with his CSM. Last game I offered to switch. I know next to nothing about CSM, except how to fight against them. CSM list was pretty weak too, because he was preparing to fight a fluffy C:SM list but his opponent never showed. The only really competitive thing in CSM list was a Flying Daemon Prince, but even he had like 50 points of upgrades too many. I still ended up winning quite handily, even though he had a much better army. But he didn't use his mobility the way he was supposed to, forgot his assault moves and stuff like that. So it's true that while Eldar have a quick learning curve, that only applies if you're already a fairly good player in general and know your way around the game. With all those extra Eldar-specific rules, even after playing them for a better half of a decade, I still sometimes forget stuff.
For instance, I sacrificed my(actually his) 300-point Daemon Prince to kill off his(actually mine, lol) remaining Serpent. He thought that was stupid, but in the end when he had no mobility left, I think he saw the wisdom in why I did what I did.
Yeah, a lot of the newer or lesser experienced players don't really understand the nuances of the game (and especially the "long" game). That's why more savvy players with worst armies can still beat less experienced player with better armies. The good generals understand the game and what they need to do to win. They also anticipate the "long" game better (the steps they need to do now in order to win the game later).
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Gitsplitta wrote: Hey jy2, I'm a complete Nid novice here... I paint them for my son, but I've never run them. Would it have helped any to have replaced a couple (?) of gaunt units with a small warrior unit in order to give you some kind of back-field scoring synapse?
Great report by-the-way. I know what kind of effort goes into a report like this and I really appreciate it.
It's a trade-off between synapse + 3 scoring bodies which can take only 1 objective or 20 scoring bodies that can take 2 objectives. Personally, I prefer the numbers, but in hindsight, I probably would have been better off with 1 unit of warriors in this game.
And thanks.
Naw wrote: I just wish people would not jump to conclusions based on one match.
Jy2, do you think your carnifexes might have been more effective from range? Pitting them against 2 WK's was uncool
By that same token, does it bother anyone else that a farseer can have both prescience and guide? That's pretty unique, everyone else must choose either codex or brb powers.
Other than with brainleech devourers, I really don't see carnifex shooting doing all that much from range. I actually didn't mind the assault from the WK's, especially when I had another unit of 3 carnifexes and the flyrant to support him. Thus, it could have potentially been 2 vs 7-8 MC's. I just didn't expect to fail so miserably in assault.
Actually, daemons can mix between codex and book powers as well, but I will admit that as a Tyranid player, I'm jealous.
As for the farseers, they should have made Death Mission the Primaris.
ansacs wrote: @Naw
That is one of the few unqiue things the farseer gets. If not for that then farseers would be worse psykers than the majority of psyker HQs in the game.
@Jy2 and thread
Has anyone tried a prime in a unit of 3 carnifex's to buff them and hold synapse together for your slow elements (ie the other carnifex's). It would be incredibly durable and could give a huge synapse coverage with the crown, etc.
Farseers are actually one of the best psykers in the game, even if they couldn't mix powers. I mean, how many Lvl 3 psykers are there for only 100-pts?
The problem with Prime + carnifexes is that they are a very slow source of synapse that is also not very maneuverable. If the army stays together, then yeah, they work great together. However, if I can split up your army like mechdar did in this game, you will still have synapse problems. Basically, you take out the flyrants (or a flyrant) and now your slow army is even slower. Mobility is such a huge factor in this game.
I was priming my spiders just before the game and then left them outside to dry. Then you know the saying, "out of sight, out of mind"? Well, that's exactly what happened.
jy2 wrote: Yeah, a lot of the newer or lesser experienced players don't really understand the nuances of the game (and especially the "long" game). That's why more savvy players with worst armies can still beat less experienced player with better armies. The good generals understand the game and what they need to do to win. They also anticipate the "long" game better (the steps they need to do now in order to win the game later).
Agreed. One mission I still can't get my head around and somehow always mess things up is The Relic. It's just such a silly mission sometimes. In 9/10 of all the relic games I played, he who got FB won, or ift ended in a draw with one side getting Linebreaker and the other FB. I'm starting to think the Relic is tactically the hardest mission to win through Primary objective. Or maybe it's just a silly mission, as my first gut instinct tells me it is.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.
Why would it be a pity?
I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.
A litmus test of how good an army build is isn't how well it can do against Joe Schmoe but rather, how well it can do against Johnny the Champ.
To a degree yes. But there is a flaw in this reasoning. If I were testing out a new steel for making medieval arrow tips, I should test it's ability to penetrate armor of its time, not modern warfare flak like dragon scale for example.
I'm sure had the Polish cavalry not charged the blitzkrieg we could have still deemed cavalry is not competitive vs German tanks
In this batrep, the nids are the Polish cav, and I'll let you figure out who the Blitzkrieg tank wall is
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.
Why would it be a pity?
I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.
A litmus test of how good an army build is isn't how well it can do against Joe Schmoe but rather, how well it can do against Johnny the Champ.
To a degree yes. But there is a flaw in this reasoning. If I were testing out a new steel for making medieval arrow tips, I should test it's ability to penetrate armor of its time, not modern warfare flak like dragon scale for example.
I'm sure had the Polish cavalry not charged the blitzkrieg we could have still deemed cavalry is not competitive vs German tanks
In this batrep, the nids are the Polish cav, and I'll let you figure out who the Blitzkrieg tank wall is
Polish cavalry did not charge German tanks, ever.
True dat. It was a German propaganda piece. Cavalry had been all-but phased out and certainly were never used in that manner.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.
Why would it be a pity?
I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.
A litmus test of how good an army build is isn't how well it can do against Joe Schmoe but rather, how well it can do against Johnny the Champ.
To a degree yes. But there is a flaw in this reasoning. If I were testing out a new steel for making medieval arrow tips, I should test it's ability to penetrate armor of its time, not modern warfare flak like dragon scale for example.
I'm sure had the Polish cavalry not charged the blitzkrieg we could have still deemed cavalry is not competitive vs German tanks
In this batrep, the nids are the Polish cav, and I'll let you figure out who the Blitzkrieg tank wall is
Polish cavalry did not charge German tanks, ever.
True dat. It was a German propaganda piece. Cavalry had been all-but phased out and certainly were never used in that manner.
Yes exactly not to mention that the particular charge which gave birth to a myth was in fact a successful one:
"During the war German cavalry units increased in numbers from a single brigade to a larger but still limited force of six cavalry divisions and two corps HQ. All regular cavalry troops served on the Eastern Front and the Balkans and a few Cossack battalions on the Western Front."
Yes yes and if everyone had nuclear weapons we would all be safe.
I have watched/read a lot of batreps where the new tyranids have gotten quite comfortable wins against other armies. They seem to be quite a good hard counter against many builds. I'd gladly trade what Eldar I have for some Tyranids, much more interesting army than serpent/bike spam.
ansacs wrote: @Naw
That is one of the few unqiue things the farseer gets. If not for that then farseers would be worse psykers than the majority of psyker HQs in the game.
.
Do you actually believe what you wrote? You mean the same farseers that come ml3 stock with an invuln and free wargear that blocks perils? The same farseers that come with more wounds than nearly every other non-unique psykers in the game, with access to the fastest bikes in the game? Yeah without divination and runes of fate combined, they're total garbage.
QTF!
I had to reread that post myself
Basically what was once reserved for Eldrad at 200+ points is now stock for all seers at 100.
Enceladus wrote: A complete massacre and the Warp Spiders didn't even see play. Bad times for the Nids :-(
To be fair, mechdar has the capability to demolish a lot of armies and not just bugs. It's not that bugs are weak. It's just that mechdar is too strong for all but the most optimized of armies to face.
Naw wrote: Yes yes and if everyone had nuclear weapons we would all be safe.
I have watched/read a lot of batreps where the new tyranids have gotten quite comfortable wins against other armies. They seem to be quite a good hard counter against many builds. I'd gladly trade what Eldar I have for some Tyranids, much more interesting army than serpent/bike spam.
Bugs definitely are a more engaging army to play nowadays. If you want a challenge, if you want a thinking person's army, if you want to exercise your brain, then bugs may be the army for you.
Enceladus wrote: A complete massacre and the Warp Spiders didn't even see play. Bad times for the Nids :-(
To be fair, mechdar has the capability to demolish a lot of armies and not just bugs. It's not that bugs are weak. It's just that mechdar is too strong for all but the most optimized of armies to face.
Naw wrote: Yes yes and if everyone had nuclear weapons we would all be safe.
I have watched/read a lot of batreps where the new tyranids have gotten quite comfortable wins against other armies. They seem to be quite a good hard counter against many builds. I'd gladly trade what Eldar I have for some Tyranids, much more interesting army than serpent/bike spam.
Bugs definitely are a more engaging army to play nowadays. If you want a challenge, if you want a thinking person's army, if you want to exercise your brain, then bugs may be the army for you.
ansacs wrote: @Naw
That is one of the few unqiue things the farseer gets. If not for that then farseers would be worse psykers than the majority of psyker HQs in the game.
.
Do you actually believe what you wrote? You mean the same farseers that come ml3 stock with an invuln and free wargear that blocks perils? The same farseers that come with more wounds than nearly every other non-unique psykers in the game, with access to the fastest bikes in the game? Yeah without divination and runes of fate combined, they're total garbage.
QTF!
I had to reread that post myself
Basically what was once reserved for Eldrad at 200+ points is now stock for all seers at 100.
Yeah, wow. I totally messed that statement up. I had meant that it has less unique abilities than most of the psykers in the game. Runepriests, daemons, inquisitors, nids, etc. all bring more army changing benefits than a farseer. Though truthfully Without prescience + guide the farseer would not be as good as a runepriest or two prescience inquisitors except within the confines of a jetseer council.
)
(due to the 9 Fexes!)
