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barnowl wrote:
Surprised the fex were so undergunned. I normally run screamerkillers with cluster spines when I want assault fexs so I can get 2 softeners and grenades. I3 ain't t great but still better than I1.

That's the trade-off. More fexes for less upgrades.

Generally, my philosophy for list building is that "deathstar"-type units should not be more than 50% of your army, give or take a few points. Otherwise, you just can't build a balanced TAC army with it. The fexes here are 1170-pts, or 58.5% of the army. It is right at the threshold of being totally unbalanced, at least for me. Unfortunately, Tyranids need more "support" units than some of the other armies (i.e. eldar, necrons) because they have a "tax" called synapse that they've got to account for.

Besides, with the exception of the dakkafexes, you want to be running forwards with your fexes, not shooting. In that sense, giving them guns just slows them down.

 jy2 wrote:
Thanks for quoting the rules. Hmmmm...you may be right. When it says that the model suffers a wound, I assumed it would be the same wound as that from the weapon that glanced/penned it. But now looking at the rules again, it does look like an auto-wound with no strength value.

He failed on the 3rd save. Would have had 1W left with 1 save left to make. Might have made the game closer.

Well, any penetrating hits have a very good chance to cause alot of S6 wounds to him, so I dont think it would have been much of a difference.

I actually rolled a 3 on the damage charts for one of the pens, which goes up to 4 due to AP2. And actually, the zoan made all his saves against those S6 hits.

But I didn't roll for his last save because he failed his 3rd save from the "normal" pen/glance hit.

Wish I could say I was surprised by the result =(

Serpents are just too fast with too many shots.

 Reecius wrote:
Wish I could say I was surprised by the result =(

Serpents are just too fast with too many shots.

I think the game would have been much closer had the dice been more even. For example, had Eldar saves been more "normal", tyranids would have killed 1 extra wave serpent and the WK probably a turn earlier.

Then again, dice is always a part of the game. As it was, bugs got smashed!

Try a rematch, then? The same setup, perhaps some tweaks on the bug side.

This batrep really shows why I don't like Serpent spam. It's such an incredibly easy army to play. Probably the easiest in the game currently. One of the most forgiving as well.

Nice report! I think you're right in saying that embarking the Zoanthrope was a mistake. It was a pretty big deal, really. One of those things that you just have to shake your head and move on, though it would have been less of an issue if you had taken two zoanthropes in the squad.

As to those saying Serpent Spam is too easy to play - it's definitely strong, but it takes skill to play it well. While it's a "forgiving" army to some extent, Jy2 played it the way he should have - spreading them out and creating difficult choices for the limited number of slow models available to the bugs.

In the hands of a mediocre/average player, I would not have been at all surprised to find the bugs won the game, as inept playing may have had the attitude of 'blowing them off the table with withering firepower' rather than smart movement to keep the fexes from doing too much damage. Bugs ended up killing nearly all of the Serpents regardless - an indifferently-skilled player would have lost their Serpents and left their troops in poor position to hold objectives in the endgame.

That said, I don't particularly relish the thought of playing against Serpent Spam at LVO, though I have a feeling that at least 4 games will include either Eldar or Tau.

(prove me wrong, matchup gods!!)

Jy2 - have you decided what army you're playing for LVO? If so, care to provide insight?

 Araenion wrote:
Try a rematch, then? The same setup, perhaps some tweaks on the bug side.

This batrep really shows why I don't like Serpent spam. It's such an incredibly easy army to play. Probably the easiest in the game currently. One of the most forgiving as well.

I've got other Tyranid builds I want to try out, including the new Tyranid dataslate formations, so you probably won't see a rematch anytime soon. If anything, the next time I run a carnifex-build, it'll most likely be a more balanced army with probably 2x2 dakkafexes at most.

With regards to mechdar, yeah, it is a very forgiving army. It is also a great army for beginners to play due to that and also to it being pretty straigh-forwards to play. However, as with any army, to play it well does require some skill, but the learning curve for such an army is definitely much easier than that for tyranids or some of the other non-spam armies.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xaereth wrote:
Nice report! I think you're right in saying that embarking the Zoanthrope was a mistake. It was a pretty big deal, really. One of those things that you just have to shake your head and move on, though it would have been less of an issue if you had taken two zoanthropes in the squad.

As to those saying Serpent Spam is too easy to play - it's definitely strong, but it takes skill to play it well. While it's a "forgiving" army to some extent, Jy2 played it the way he should have - spreading them out and creating difficult choices for the limited number of slow models available to the bugs.

In the hands of a mediocre/average player, I would not have been at all surprised to find the bugs won the game, as inept playing may have had the attitude of 'blowing them off the table with withering firepower' rather than smart movement to keep the fexes from doing too much damage. Bugs ended up killing nearly all of the Serpents regardless - an indifferently-skilled player would have lost their Serpents and left their troops in poor position to hold objectives in the endgame.

That said, I don't particularly relish the thought of playing against Serpent Spam at LVO, though I have a feeling that at least 4 games will include either Eldar or Tau.

(prove me wrong, matchup gods!!)

Jy2 - have you decided what army you're playing for LVO? If so, care to provide insight?

I definitely think that skill/generalship > list. A more higly skilled general with an inferior army/list can still beat a lesser general with a better list most of the time. It's only when both generals are equally skilled where the list will give 1 player the advantage.

I'm very tempted to bring my Tyranids, though I don't have the army that I really want to run yet.

I'm definitely NOT going to be bringing mechdar.

So it's either going to be my wraithwing necrons or perhaps my non-Be'lakor daemons. Lol.

I have like 50 tyranid warriors lying around...maybe we should get a game in for fun to see if you spam enough of them if they have a chance!

Of course, no army is auto-win, no-skill-required. However, give an average player a Tyranid or a Daemon army and he'll struggle. Give him Mechdar and assuming he knows the general rules for the game, he'll at least do well vs most opponents.

But beside that learning curve, tactics cap is also quite low. A great mechdar player might still be an average player in general, as the army after a while starts to play itself and has nowhere near as many subtleties and synergies as most other armies do.

Even with all that I probably wouldn't dislike as I do, if it weren't for the C: Eldar itself. The book has so many options and cool combinations that spamming 3 units across your army just seems like a waste. Not saying you shouldn't play it if that's your thing, I'm just explaining why I said I don't like it.

On the other hand, two weeks ago I had a game that proves your point, Jy2. It was a game with a friend of mine that gets whooped every time against my Eldar with his CSM. Last game I offered to switch. I know next to nothing about CSM, except how to fight against them. CSM list was pretty weak too, because he was preparing to fight a fluffy C:SM list but his opponent never showed. The only really competitive thing in CSM list was a Flying Daemon Prince, but even he had like 50 points of upgrades too many. I still ended up winning quite handily, even though he had a much better army. But he didn't use his mobility the way he was supposed to, forgot his assault moves and stuff like that. So it's true that while Eldar have a quick learning curve, that only applies if you're already a fairly good player in general and know your way around the game. With all those extra Eldar-specific rules, even after playing them for a better half of a decade, I still sometimes forget stuff.

For instance, I sacrificed my(actually his) 300-point Daemon Prince to kill off his(actually mine, lol) remaining Serpent. He thought that was stupid, but in the end when he had no mobility left, I think he saw the wisdom in why I did what I did.

Hey jy2, I'm a complete Nid novice here... I paint them for my son, but I've never run them. Would it have helped any to have replaced a couple (?) of gaunt units with a small warrior unit in order to give you some kind of back-field scoring synapse?

Great report by-the-way. I know what kind of effort goes into a report like this and I really appreciate it.

I just wish people would not jump to conclusions based on one match.

Jy2, do you think your carnifexes might have been more effective from range? Pitting them against 2 WK's was uncool

By that same token, does it bother anyone else that a farseer can have both prescience and guide? That's pretty unique, everyone else must choose either codex or brb powers.

@Naw
That is one of the few unqiue things the farseer gets. If not for that then farseers would be worse psykers than the majority of psyker HQs in the game.

@Jy2 and thread
Has anyone tried a prime in a unit of 3 carnifex's to buff them and hold synapse together for your slow elements (ie the other carnifex's). It would be incredibly durable and could give a huge synapse coverage with the crown, etc.

 ansacs wrote:
@Naw
That is one of the few unqiue things the farseer gets. If not for that then farseers would be worse psykers than the majority of psyker HQs in the game.
.

Do you actually believe what you wrote? You mean the same farseers that come ml3 stock with an invuln and free wargear that blocks perils? The same farseers that come with more wounds than nearly every other non-unique psykers in the game, with access to the fastest bikes in the game? Yeah without divination and runes of fate combined, they're total garbage.

Don't be nailing on my Seer, you hear? Your mind might incidentally blow up.

Joking aside, Farseers are stupendously good. If they were 30 points costlier, they'd still be good.

 Araenion wrote:
Don't be nailing on my Seer, you hear? Your mind might incidentally blow up.

Joking aside, Farseers are stupendously good. If they were 30 points costlier, they'd still be good.

I just played a guy who has a Runepriest, Tigurius and Njal (410 points at least). They preciensed two units of FIVE Plasma Cannons and a unit of 5 missiles round after bloody round from inside a Fortress of Redemption. The Eldar can do this with Eldrad and a Farseer better pretty much for 305 points to their squads or their battle brothers.

It's...silly.

Thanks for this great report !!

Just one question Jy2, how do you manage to give a 4++ to WK ?

Forewarning Divination power.

anyone else notice he forgot to use the 8 warpspiders?

 mortetvie wrote:
I have like 50 tyranid warriors lying around...maybe we should get a game in for fun to see if you spam enough of them if they have a chance!

That will definitely be an interesting army for sure. It's actually a very durable, if somewhat slow army.

Reminds of my GK army with 40 GK terminators.

 Araenion wrote:
Of course, no army is auto-win, no-skill-required. However, give an average player a Tyranid or a Daemon army and he'll struggle. Give him Mechdar and assuming he knows the general rules for the game, he'll at least do well vs most opponents.

But beside that learning curve, tactics cap is also quite low. A great mechdar player might still be an average player in general, as the army after a while starts to play itself and has nowhere near as many subtleties and synergies as most other armies do.

Even with all that I probably wouldn't dislike as I do, if it weren't for the C: Eldar itself. The book has so many options and cool combinations that spamming 3 units across your army just seems like a waste. Not saying you shouldn't play it if that's your thing, I'm just explaining why I said I don't like it.

On the other hand, two weeks ago I had a game that proves your point, Jy2. It was a game with a friend of mine that gets whooped every time against my Eldar with his CSM. Last game I offered to switch. I know next to nothing about CSM, except how to fight against them. CSM list was pretty weak too, because he was preparing to fight a fluffy C:SM list but his opponent never showed. The only really competitive thing in CSM list was a Flying Daemon Prince, but even he had like 50 points of upgrades too many. I still ended up winning quite handily, even though he had a much better army. But he didn't use his mobility the way he was supposed to, forgot his assault moves and stuff like that. So it's true that while Eldar have a quick learning curve, that only applies if you're already a fairly good player in general and know your way around the game. With all those extra Eldar-specific rules, even after playing them for a better half of a decade, I still sometimes forget stuff.

For instance, I sacrificed my(actually his) 300-point Daemon Prince to kill off his(actually mine, lol) remaining Serpent. He thought that was stupid, but in the end when he had no mobility left, I think he saw the wisdom in why I did what I did.

Yeah, a lot of the newer or lesser experienced players don't really understand the nuances of the game (and especially the "long" game). That's why more savvy players with worst armies can still beat less experienced player with better armies. The good generals understand the game and what they need to do to win. They also anticipate the "long" game better (the steps they need to do now in order to win the game later).





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gitsplitta wrote:
Hey jy2, I'm a complete Nid novice here... I paint them for my son, but I've never run them. Would it have helped any to have replaced a couple (?) of gaunt units with a small warrior unit in order to give you some kind of back-field scoring synapse?

Great report by-the-way. I know what kind of effort goes into a report like this and I really appreciate it.

It's a trade-off between synapse + 3 scoring bodies which can take only 1 objective or 20 scoring bodies that can take 2 objectives. Personally, I prefer the numbers, but in hindsight, I probably would have been better off with 1 unit of warriors in this game.

And thanks.

Naw wrote:
I just wish people would not jump to conclusions based on one match.

Jy2, do you think your carnifexes might have been more effective from range? Pitting them against 2 WK's was uncool

By that same token, does it bother anyone else that a farseer can have both prescience and guide? That's pretty unique, everyone else must choose either codex or brb powers.

Other than with brainleech devourers, I really don't see carnifex shooting doing all that much from range. I actually didn't mind the assault from the WK's, especially when I had another unit of 3 carnifexes and the flyrant to support him. Thus, it could have potentially been 2 vs 7-8 MC's. I just didn't expect to fail so miserably in assault.

Actually, daemons can mix between codex and book powers as well, but I will admit that as a Tyranid player, I'm jealous.

As for the farseers, they should have made Death Mission the Primaris.

 ansacs wrote:
@Naw
That is one of the few unqiue things the farseer gets. If not for that then farseers would be worse psykers than the majority of psyker HQs in the game.

@Jy2 and thread
Has anyone tried a prime in a unit of 3 carnifex's to buff them and hold synapse together for your slow elements (ie the other carnifex's). It would be incredibly durable and could give a huge synapse coverage with the crown, etc.

Farseers are actually one of the best psykers in the game, even if they couldn't mix powers. I mean, how many Lvl 3 psykers are there for only 100-pts?

The problem with Prime + carnifexes is that they are a very slow source of synapse that is also not very maneuverable. If the army stays together, then yeah, they work great together. However, if I can split up your army like mechdar did in this game, you will still have synapse problems. Basically, you take out the flyrants (or a flyrant) and now your slow army is even slower. Mobility is such a huge factor in this game.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

jathomas2013 wrote:
anyone else notice he forgot to use the 8 warpspiders?

Lol. Somebody finally noticed.

I was priming my spiders just before the game and then left them outside to dry. Then you know the saying, "out of sight, out of mind"? Well, that's exactly what happened.

 jy2 wrote:
Yeah, a lot of the newer or lesser experienced players don't really understand the nuances of the game (and especially the "long" game). That's why more savvy players with worst armies can still beat less experienced player with better armies. The good generals understand the game and what they need to do to win. They also anticipate the "long" game better (the steps they need to do now in order to win the game later).

Agreed. One mission I still can't get my head around and somehow always mess things up is The Relic. It's just such a silly mission sometimes. In 9/10 of all the relic games I played, he who got FB won, or ift ended in a draw with one side getting Linebreaker and the other FB. I'm starting to think the Relic is tactically the hardest mission to win through Primary objective. Or maybe it's just a silly mission, as my first gut instinct tells me it is.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.

Why would it be a pity?

I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.

A litmus test of how good an army build is isn't how well it can do against Joe Schmoe but rather, how well it can do against Johnny the Champ.

To a degree yes. But there is a flaw in this reasoning. If I were testing out a new steel for making medieval arrow tips, I should test it's ability to penetrate armor of its time, not modern warfare flak like dragon scale for example.

I'm sure had the Polish cavalry not charged the blitzkrieg we could have still deemed cavalry is not competitive vs German tanks

In this batrep, the nids are the Polish cav, and I'll let you figure out who the Blitzkrieg tank wall is

Polish cavalry did not charge German tanks, ever.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.

Why would it be a pity?

I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.

A litmus test of how good an army build is isn't how well it can do against Joe Schmoe but rather, how well it can do against Johnny the Champ.

To a degree yes. But there is a flaw in this reasoning. If I were testing out a new steel for making medieval arrow tips, I should test it's ability to penetrate armor of its time, not modern warfare flak like dragon scale for example.

I'm sure had the Polish cavalry not charged the blitzkrieg we could have still deemed cavalry is not competitive vs German tanks

In this batrep, the nids are the Polish cav, and I'll let you figure out who the Blitzkrieg tank wall is

Polish cavalry did not charge German tanks, ever.

True dat. It was a German propaganda piece. Cavalry had been all-but phased out and certainly were never used in that manner.

Nice report, thanks . The fly bug swatter definitely came out, though

Not surprised by the result at all. Actually amazed it got to turn 5.

A complete massacre and the Warp Spiders didn't even see play. Bad times for the Nids :-(

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Its a pity that the 9 Carnifex list will be tested against one of its worst match ups and one of the most powerful builds in the game.

Why would it be a pity?

I always test potentially good builds against some of the strongest armies out there. That is how you can tell whether your list really has what it takes to compete.

A litmus test of how good an army build is isn't how well it can do against Joe Schmoe but rather, how well it can do against Johnny the Champ.

To a degree yes. But there is a flaw in this reasoning. If I were testing out a new steel for making medieval arrow tips, I should test it's ability to penetrate armor of its time, not modern warfare flak like dragon scale for example.

I'm sure had the Polish cavalry not charged the blitzkrieg we could have still deemed cavalry is not competitive vs German tanks

In this batrep, the nids are the Polish cav, and I'll let you figure out who the Blitzkrieg tank wall is

Polish cavalry did not charge German tanks, ever.

True dat. It was a German propaganda piece. Cavalry had been all-but phased out and certainly were never used in that manner.

Yes exactly not to mention that the particular charge which gave birth to a myth was in fact a successful one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_at_Krojanty

also Germans not only fielded cavalry too but the numbers increased throughout the war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_World_War_II

"During the war German cavalry units increased in numbers from a single brigade to a larger but still limited force of six cavalry divisions and two corps HQ. All regular cavalry troops served on the Eastern Front and the Balkans and a few Cossack battalions on the Western Front."

A complete massacre and the Warp Spiders didn't even see play. Bad times for the Nids :-(

Imagine that, GW failed to create another OP codex.

If all codices are overpowered none of them are.

Yes yes and if everyone had nuclear weapons we would all be safe.

I have watched/read a lot of batreps where the new tyranids have gotten quite comfortable wins against other armies. They seem to be quite a good hard counter against many builds. I'd gladly trade what Eldar I have for some Tyranids, much more interesting army than serpent/bike spam.