So, the title kind of says it all. Should Wolf Lords have 4 wounds? I'm of the personal opinion that they should.
After all, take the nearly identical build from the Space Marine codex: (I'm assuming a CC power build, because thaf's mainly what they are good for.)
Assuming that Chapter Tactics balance out Acute Senses and Counter-Assault, (though It Will Not Die from Iron Hands is way better,) for about the same cost you get these differences:
Wolf Lord: +1Attack, +3 Str, no chance of your weapon backfiring, always hit on 3+.
Chapter Master: +1 Wound, Hits at I5, Orbital Bombardment, a gun to shoot, can move 24".

This seems like a pretty huge discrepancy. The Chapter Master wins all around, losing pretty little. So, to match up with power creep, should theWolf Lord have 4 wounds?

(In case you're wondering, here are the builds I'm comparing:
Wolf Lord: Thunderwolf, Saga of the Bear, Artificer Armor, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Wolftooth Necklace, Wolftail Pendant
Chapter Master: Bike, Shield Eternal, and the Burning Blade

No, but Logan Grimnar should have 4 wounds because he's actually a Chapter Master.

Wolf Lords, however, could do with a bit of base points drop.

Wolf Lords are Space Wolf captains, right?

Captains should always be 3 wounds by default unless they're SC's.

If they take a thunderwolf mount then they should be four wounds

Why should a Chapter Master have 4 wounds exactly?..

GoliothOnline wrote:
Why should a Chapter Master have 4 wounds exactly?..

Becouse with ID so common and EW so rare it does not matter.
Yes, it would be nice if the Thunderwolf gave W+1

 Anpu42 wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Why should a Chapter Master have 4 wounds exactly?..

Becouse with ID so common and EW so rare it does not matter.
Yes, it would be nice if the Thunderwolf gave W+1

Oh, ok... Can Chaos Lords have 4 Wounds as well?.. Since it doesn't matter and all...

Chapter Masters having 4 Wounds pissed off a great deal of people... Myself being one of them... For no reason should they have been given 4, and no HQ that you can build and outfit yourself should have 4. Named Characters of significant importance and lore should be given 4 Wounds... Not generic clone-sons and implanted gene-seed bastards (Pardon my language on the matter)

While I do like that you can 'Build-your-own-Named-HQ' so to speak, allowing for fluffier homebrew chapters, I feel like they should either have allowed it for other classes or just not bothered. (After all, if you can't give Marnues a Repaint and call him Pete McWillards, lord of the Eternal Dasies, what kind of gamer are you?)
I think of what's said here, the +1 Wound for a Thunderwolf makes most sense. (Seeing as TWC have 2 wounds, despite being just Grey Hunters on wolfback.)

Waaaghpower wrote:
... (Seeing as TWC have 2 wounds, despite being just Grey Hunters on wolfback.)

TWC are Wolf Guard, not Grey Hunters.

 insaniak wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
... (Seeing as TWC have 2 wounds, despite being just Grey Hunters on wolfback.)

TWC are Wolf Guard, not Grey Hunters.

Well... Wolf Guard don't have 2 Wounds either, so there.

Waaaghpower wrote:
So, the title kind of says it all. Should Wolf Lords have 4 wounds? I'm of the personal opinion that they should.
After all, take the nearly identical build from the Space Marine codex: (I'm assuming a CC power build, because thaf's mainly what they are good for.)
Assuming that Chapter Tactics balance out Acute Senses and Counter-Assault, (though It Will Not Die from Iron Hands is way better,) for about the same cost you get these differences:
Wolf Lord: +1Attack, +3 Str, no chance of your weapon backfiring, always hit on 3+.
Chapter Master: +1 Wound, Hits at I5, Orbital Bombardment, a gun to shoot, can move 24".

This seems like a pretty huge discrepancy. The Chapter Master wins all around, losing pretty little. So, to match up with power creep, should theWolf Lord have 4 wounds?

(In case you're wondering, here are the builds I'm comparing:
Wolf Lord: Thunderwolf, Saga of the Bear, Artificer Armor, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Wolftooth Necklace, Wolftail Pendant
Chapter Master: Bike, Shield Eternal, and the Burning Blade

With the Thunderlord, you get to ID a lot of things and thats important, well worth it striking last.
All in all, Im not sure that the Thunderlord is worth his points but then again neither is the decked-out Chap Master. All in my opinion, of cource.

Nitpick: I dont think you can take The Burning Blade and The Shield Eternal as it is worded in the Codex. Has there been a FAQ?

Last I checked, the ruling was that you could take one Chapter Relic per exchanged weapon... So, 2 Chapter Relics. I could be wrong on that one, but it's what I heard.
Give him a Thunder Hammer, and the Chapter Master is now also much cheaper.

Actualy if you work it right and be able to give him the Two Puppy-Meat Shield, that gives you W5.

I thought a chaos lord could get 4 wounds if they took a juggernaut

Njtrent59 wrote:
I thought a chaos lord could get 4 wounds if they took a juggernaut

You can kit a Chaos Lord with a steed and make him bloody expensive as all hell by also forcing a Mark of Chaos upon him.... But then you have to buy him things to keep him alive as well...

The cost of taking a Jugernaught, or Palaquin just to give him extra wounds and Toughness isn't worth what comes with the package... Taking the Palaquin, doesn't increase your Toughness for instance... It just gives you Wounds... Taking the Juggernaught, gives you +1 Attack / Toughenss and Wounds... Arguable the best in the package... But on the wrong type of Lord... Terribly packaged... The Palaquin, a Nurgle "Steed" doesn't increase your Toughness Value at all.... By all logic It shouldn't give you +2 Wounds and +1 Attack... It should be +1 Toughness and +2 Wounds...

The Dex was ill thought out and terrible... Taking a Nurgle Lord just to unlock Plague Marines, costs you his point cost divided into the number of Plague Marines you decide to take.... Does that seem right to you? He doesn't get the privilege of ever taking a piece of Wargear which bestows EW... The best he can hope for is T6 so that str 10 weapons cannot ID him.... Like.... A Power Fist.... Chaos Lords got such a disgustingly raw deal in terms of both usefulness and actual purpose for the Dex...

 Anpu42 wrote:
Actualy if you work it right and be able to give him the Two Puppy-Meat Shield, that gives you W5.

A Two-puppy meatshield that lowers average toughness, is vulnerable to blast weapons, and is completely worthless in a Challenge. And has crap for armor, making them go away much faster than a single 2+3++ wound.

Njtrent59: Several steeds can give +1 wound, actually. I think it's Khorne and Nurgle that do that.

Wow. Space wolf tears?! That codex still has significant advantages over the core book. You give up GH +1A, your better scouts, Drop Pod terminators, thunderwolves, EW to just about anyone at a cheap cost, rune priests, HQ Dreads, LongFangs, Arjac the Broken, etc... and then you can take the +1 W on Logan. Your Wolf Lords are just captains, which have 3 wounds. Stop whining (aren't SW supposed to be tough and stoic?).

As long as an Ork Warboss only has three wounds as well, you will take your 3W and be bloody grateful.

 Lobukia wrote:
Wow. Space wolf tears?! That codex still has significant advantages over the core book. You give up GH +1A, your better scouts, Drop Pod terminators, thunderwolves, EW to just about anyone at a cheap cost, rune priests, HQ Dreads, LongFangs, Arjac the Broken, etc... and then you can take the +1 W on Logan. Your Wolf Lords are just captains, which have 3 wounds. Stop whining (aren't SW supposed to be tough and stoic?).

Let's see...
True dat on Grey Hunters, (But normal Marines can do that if you play Forge World. For +1 Point (Making them the same cost as GH) you can buy a CCW.)
We pay an extra 4 points for the slightly better scouts, and they're elites. That's not a gain, it's a wash.
Drop Pod Terminators aren't bad at all, but our Terminators also can't Teleport, so it's not like we're gaining much. It's 35 points to get something codex Marines have for free.
Thunderwolves are more expensive and less effective than Necron Wraiths. They're fun, but hardly broken by any means.
35 Points to give one model EW? (You can only buy it once per army.) How is that any worse than the Shield Eternal? (15 more points, you get +1 to your DTW and a Storm Shield.)
Rune Priests are pretty beast, definitely.
Are you seriously calling Bjorn an advantage? He costs more than a Land Raider and has practically no damage output.
Long Fangs are pretty beast, too.
Arjac the WHAT? Arjac Rockfist costs 185 Points and has only 2 wounds. There is no universe where Arjac is better than his equivalent in Assault Terminators. Heck, for just 45 more points you get Lysander for Space Marines, who gets twice as many wounds, better general stats, and Orbital Bombardment. (Which beats a 6" Hammer throw.)
Wolf Lords are just captains, yes. My original post wasn't about fluff, though, I was just pointing out that for more points, you get a less effective warrior who fulfills the exact same role, but worse.


I'm not saying that Space Wolves are a bad army. (Though, due to the complete lack of AA other than generic Fortifications and equally generic Forge World, we die instantly against flyers unless we bring allies,) I'm just frustrated that our most powerful leader is one-upped in most every sense by a cheaper model, in an army *not* specifically built for close-quarters prowess.

but our Terminators also can't Teleport

???? Elaborate please.... How do Terminators Teleport

Deep striking. Space wolves terminators can't do this

Why not exactly?... I thought the Terminator Armor brought the Deep Strike URS to the model it carried

NVM I just read the mistrust in DS

GoliothOnline wrote:
Chapter Masters having 4 Wounds pissed off a great deal of people... Myself being one of them... For no reason should they have been given 4, and no HQ that you can build and outfit yourself should have 4. Named Characters of significant importance and lore should be given 4 Wounds... Not generic clone-sons and implanted gene-seed bastards (Pardon my language on the matter)

Heldrakes.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Chapter Masters having 4 Wounds pissed off a great deal of people... Myself being one of them... For no reason should they have been given 4, and no HQ that you can build and outfit yourself should have 4. Named Characters of significant importance and lore should be given 4 Wounds... Not generic clone-sons and implanted gene-seed bastards (Pardon my language on the matter)

Heldrakes.

MUFFIN!!!!!

Would you like a cup for those tears?

GoliothOnline wrote:
Why not exactly?... I thought the Terminator Armor brought the Deep Strike URS to the model it carried

A Space-Wolf rule. They don't trust Teleport Homers, and therefore don't use them. Drop Pods are our substitute, and while they are handy for first-turn Landings and greater accuracy, (both of which can be done by various other power armored armies,) our squad size is limited.

 Lobukia wrote:
Wow. Space wolf tears?! That codex still has significant advantages over the core book. You give up GH +1A, your better scouts, Drop Pod terminators, Thunderwolves, EW to just about anyone at a cheap cost, rune priests, HQ Dreads, Long Fangs, Arjac the Broken, etc... and then you can take the +1 W on Logan. Your Wolf Lords are just captains, which have 3 wounds. Stop whining (aren't SW supposed to be tough and stoic?).

Eternal Warrior: We have Two Characters with EW and one more they can buy it, along with a W2 Model that if you don’t give a Storm Shield Two along wit 2 Wolves is going get gunned down in 6”-12” from his starting position. And it is not Cheep; it cost more than one of our Terminators
Scouts: Our Scouts are in a crowded Elite Slot.
Terminators: We can take Drop Pods, with 5 Terminators in them and if we want to take a HQ we loose the ability to take a Special Weapons. Thunder Hammer Storm Shield cost more than 60 points.
Arjac: Cost more than a Fully Kitted out Venerable Dreadnaught.
Björn: Dead with three Glances
Grey Hunters: Have to move to Shoot and entrenched Target. If we want Ld 9 and a Transport we give up the second Special Weapon and an Elite Slot.
Long Fangs: No Anti-Air, No Meat Shields, The choice of losing my Split Fire or a Heavy Weapon.

What do we not have:
>No Effective Anti-Aircraft without Allies
>No Feel No Pain
>No Combat Squads
>No FOC Free Units
>No Flying Transports

Steelmage99 wrote:
As long as an Ork Warboss only has three wounds as well, you will take your 3W and be bloody grateful.

I have no issues with that.

All Wolf Lords really need is a point decrease. Change up the points costs on some of the SW unique wargear to give them more choices and they will be just fine.

I'm sure they will get a rather significant overhaul when the codex gets redone, but nothing is happening until then anyway.

It would be really nice if we could get some kind of relic that is AP 2 at initiative just like everyone else has

Let your codex become part of SM then, then you can have the power creep you desire.

Seriously. SW had a long run at the top of the PA heap. You're at the end of the cycle and still very very good. Your Wolf Lords are Captains, and still have comparable stats and abilities. Comparing apples to apples, you have a 10% tax SM don't. Boohoo. Since 2009, you've had the better book. 4+ years!!! you can't take 1 year only being arguable as good as us as opposed to way better?! Nope, no WAAC power gamers here.

Wolf lords are captain equivalents, so W3.
Chaos Lords should have the option for A4/W4 since some of them are CM equivalents. Grand Masters should get a flat A4/W4.

No, Wolf Lords should be 3 wounds. I'd be happy enough to see Logan being 4 wounds, though he's pretty tanky already, or TWC giving +1 wound.

 Lobukia wrote:
Seriously. SW had a long run at the top of the PA heap. You're at the end of the cycle and still very very good. Your Wolf Lords are Captains, and still have comparable stats and abilities. Comparing apples to apples, you have a 10% tax SM don't. Boohoo. Since 2009, you've had the better book. 4+ years!!! you can't take 1 year only being arguable as good as us as opposed to way better?! Nope, no WAAC power gamers here.

Excellent, now I see the light! You can't actually argue that the Space Wolf codex is overpowered, so you say we *used* to be better and now I'm whining.
Not that it matters, but I started playing Space Wolves less than a year ago, because I like their fluff. My army lists usually include a Thunderwolf Deathstar, Canis Wolfborn, and Bjorn the Fell-Handed because I like the models and they're fun to play with. My other two armies are Orks and Sisters of Battle, both of which are nowhere near the top of the power creep, and haven't been since long before I started playing.

Of course, since I thought one model was somewhat underpowered for his points cost, and wondered if anyone else agreed, I'm clearly a whiney WAAC Power Gamer.


As a sidenote, how does the fluff of 'Being Captains' have anything at all to do with rules? My argument is that for the same costs in the same role, Wolf Lords should be as good. Or, they shouldn't be the same cost. Take your pick. Being a 'Captain equivalent' in fluff is irrelevant when the rules make him a Chapter Master equivalent.

As has been mentioned several times already, the Wolf Lord is a Captain-equivalent and so should have Captain stats. The fact that he has 4 Attacks is already exceptional and frankly sticks out when Blood Angels, Flesh Tearers etc. do not.

Your Chapter Master is Logan and so I both expect and support him receiving a Chapter Masters 4/4 stats when you get a reboot.

While we are on the subject I would also like to see Chaos Lords gaining the option for 4/4, as well as Huron Blackheart. Even if it is purchased through upgrades rather than as a unit (See Daemonic Essence from 3.5).

 Anpu42 wrote:

Eternal Warrior: We have Two Characters with EW and one more they can buy it, along with a W2 Model that if you don’t give a Storm Shield Two along wit 2 Wolves is going get gunned down in 6”-12” from his starting position. And it is not Cheep; it cost more than one of our Terminators

Saga of the Bear

 Anpu42 wrote:

Scouts: Our Scouts are in a crowded Elite Slot.

And have several advantages over normal SM scouts such as ws/bs 4 and acute senses.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Terminators: We can take Drop Pods, with 5 Terminators in them and if we want to take a HQ we loose the ability to take a Special Weapons. Thunder Hammer Storm Shield cost more than 60 points.

Alright, got me here. One disadvantage.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Arjac: Cost more than a Fully Kitted out Venerable Dreadnaught.

Also throws a hammer that is as strong as a Hammerhead Rail Gun. Arjac would likely crush a Venerable Dreadnought in combat.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Björn: Dead with three Glances

Just like every other dreadnought in the game? Every single one?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Grey Hunters: Have to move to Shoot and entrenched Target. If we want Ld 9 and a Transport we give up the second Special Weapon and an Elite Slot.

I don't understand the first point (I can't parse your sentence). As for the second, in trade for that you gain counter-attack, the ability to take two special weapons at all (marines get one special and one heavy, which is awkward). And wolf guard are a wonderful unit, and have the capability to bring a cyclone missile launcher or assault cannon to support their squads. Boo hoo, you can't bring another plasma gun.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Long Fangs: No Anti-Air, No Meat Shields, The choice of losing my Split Fire or a Heavy Weapon.

Except that you HAVE split fire. And if you had meat shields, you wouldn't take them anyways. No one does at 14 points per model - why would you at 15?

 Anpu42 wrote:

What do we not have:
>No Effective Anti-Aircraft without Allies

Hyperios Air Defense Launcher, Storm Eagle Assault Gunship, Fire Raptor Gunship, Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No Feel No Pain

You also don't have pretty much the entire Special Rules section too. You could put "don't have blind, don't have hit and run, don't have missile lock, don't have vector strike...". Not everyone gets everything.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No Combat Squads

Instead you get counter-attack and an extra Special Weapon.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No FOC Free Units

Dedicated Transports

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No Flying Transports

Storm Eagle Assault Gunship

I believe Wolf Lords are intended to be Captain-equivalents in game mechanic terms in addition to fluff terms. C:SM has named Chapter Masters and an unnamed Chapter Master. It was like that in the last book, too. Other loyalist MEQ books have named Chapter Masters. (Azrael, Dante, Draigo, Logan, Seth*), but no generic ones. GW has apparently decided that loyalist** Chapter Master equivalents get 4 Wounds now, so by that logic Logan should get 4W in the next update, because he's suppose to be the Chapter Master-equivalent HQ choice for SW. Wolf Lords should get a small points reduction to bring them in line with other MEQ's captains, but they are certainly not intended to be Chapter-master strength (that's Logan's job)--however just like a Captain (or Chaos Lord) you can certainly make a Wolf Lord who costs much more than a kitted-out Chapter Master.

(*I think Seth is a Chapter Master for a BA successor...not entirely sure, though.)

(**I think that Daemon Princes are intended to be CSM's 'Chapter Master' in relation to Chaos Lords...but I think that CSM ought to have some sort of true Chapter Master-type HQ. Also, apparently somebody misplaced one of Huron's Wounds when they put him back together after Badab.)

As an aside I play Space Wolves (among many others) and I'm fairly certain that it's still pretty much top dog (heh) as far as MEQ codices are concerned--only Grav-spamming Bikers are scarier, I think. They don't really need much of a buff relative to the others. Some in-codex Skyfire would be nice. But that's about it.

And have several advantages over normal SM scouts such as ws/bs 4 and acute senses.

Those don't realy matter when they can't charge out of OBEL . They were ok in 5th , right now people take scouts to either get cheap troops or spam cheap sniper rifles to kill heralds , etherals in units etc SW scouts cost more then normal scouts and can't double as objective grabers . They could have WS 10 and they would still be bad.

Makumba wrote:

And have several advantages over normal SM scouts such as ws/bs 4 and acute senses.

Those don't realy matter when they can't charge out of OBEL . They were ok in 5th , right now people take scouts to either get cheap troops or spam cheap sniper rifles to kill heralds , etherals in units etc SW scouts cost more then normal scouts and can't double as objective grabers . They could have WS 10 and they would still be bad.

Think what you want, but they're of course going to cost more, and it's not unreasonable to see such skilled troops in the elites slot.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Eternal Warrior: We have Two Characters with EW and one more they can buy it, along with a W2 Model that if you don’t give a Storm Shield Two along wit 2 Wolves is going get gunned down in 6”-12” from his starting position. And it is not Cheep; it cost more than one of our Terminators

Saga of the Bear

I believe that's the "one more that can buy it". Only Wolf Lords can take Eternal Warrior and it costs 35pts, compared to a Terminator with SB and PW which costs only 33pts.

Okay, unit1166, let's go down your list of corrections:
Saga of the Bear - He already said you could by Eternal Warrior on one model. Just like Space Marines can.

Our scouts are better, yes.They're also 4 points more per model, without upgrades.

The terminator thing is indeed a disadvantage.

Arjac's weapon has 6" range, and any decent firepower mows him down. Compared to most dedicated CC units, he's awful at 185 points.

Yes, Bjorn is indeed just as fragile as every other dreadnaught in the game. It's a shame he costs almost 300 points.

I also can't parse the sentance about entrenching either. However, it's fair to say that counter-assault, acute senses, and our grey hunters are an even trade for Chapter Tactics.

I agree that Long Fangs are still good without body shields.

Every time you use Forge World to argue that Space Wolves are good, I cringe. My LGS bars Forge World. A lot of them do. Plus, it doesn't mean that the codex itself is any good.

Another comparison to Chapter Tactics with combat squads...

Really? You're just being contrary with the Dedicated Transports thing.

More cringing about Forge World.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Okay, unit1166, let's go down your list of corrections:
Saga of the Bear - He already said you could by Eternal Warrior on one model. Just like Space Marines can.

Our scouts are better, yes.They're also 4 points more per model, without upgrades.

The terminator thing is indeed a disadvantage.

Arjac's weapon has 6" range, and any decent firepower mows him down. Compared to most dedicated CC units, he's awful at 185 points.

Yes, Bjorn is indeed just as fragile as every other dreadnaught in the game. It's a shame he costs almost 300 points.

I also can't parse the sentance about entrenching either. However, it's fair to say that counter-assault, acute senses, and our grey hunters are an even trade for Chapter Tactics.

I agree that Long Fangs are still good without body shields.

Every time you use Forge World to argue that Space Wolves are good, I cringe. My LGS bars Forge World. A lot of them do. Plus, it doesn't mean that the codex itself is any good.

Another comparison to Chapter Tactics with combat squads...

Really? You're just being contrary with the Dedicated Transports thing.

More cringing about Forge World.

I see what you are saying. Then we'll call it a wash, in terms of who can bring Eternal Warrior.

Your scouts are better and should cost more. Maybe not 4ppm more, but Storm Troopers should not be 2ppm more than Tactical Marines. Some things just are overpriced - it's unfortunate, but c'est la vie.

He's better than the dreadnought he was compared to. Most dedicated CC units will get gunned down in this edition, such is the fate of CC in 6th largely.

It is. It's also a shame the Rough Riders are 10 points per model, and that Storm Troopers are 16. Bjorn is overpriced, but he was in 5th too.

Regardless of local house-rules, there are air defense options for Space Wolves.

I am, but it's a stupid complaint - why does every army have to have some unit that ignores FOC? What does that really have to do with whether or not an army is good?

And again, if you ignore house-rules, the Space Wolves do have a flying assault transport.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Okay, unit1166, let's go down your list of corrections:
Saga of the Bear - He already said you could by Eternal Warrior on one model. Just like Space Marines can.

Our scouts are better, yes.They're also 4 points more per model, without upgrades.

The terminator thing is indeed a disadvantage.

Arjac's weapon has 6" range, and any decent firepower mows him down. Compared to most dedicated CC units, he's awful at 185 points.

Yes, Bjorn is indeed just as fragile as every other dreadnaught in the game. It's a shame he costs almost 300 points.

I also can't parse the sentance about entrenching either. However, it's fair to say that counter-assault, acute senses, and our grey hunters are an even trade for Chapter Tactics.

I agree that Long Fangs are still good without body shields.

Every time you use Forge World to argue that Space Wolves are good, I cringe. My LGS bars Forge World. A lot of them do. Plus, it doesn't mean that the codex itself is any good.

Another comparison to Chapter Tactics with combat squads...

Really? You're just being contrary with the Dedicated Transports thing.

More cringing about Forge World.

I see what you are saying. Then we'll call it a wash, in terms of who can bring Eternal Warrior.

Your scouts are better and should cost more. Maybe not 4ppm more, but Storm Troopers should not be 2ppm more than Tactical Marines. Some things just are overpriced - it's unfortunate, but c'est la vie.

He's better than the dreadnought he was compared to. Most dedicated CC units will get gunned down in this edition, such is the fate of CC in 6th largely.

It is. It's also a shame the Rough Riders are 10 points per model, and that Storm Troopers are 16. Bjorn is overpriced, but he was in 5th too.

Regardless of local house-rules, there are air defense options for Space Wolves.

I am, but it's a stupid complaint - why does every army have to have some unit that ignores FOC? What does that really have to do with whether or not an army is good?

And again, if you ignore house-rules, the Space Wolves do have a flying assault transport.

But arguing that overpriced models are good is, simply put, really really silly. Old One Eye would be totally OP if he was 5 points. But he's not. Flyrants would be terrible if they cost 500 points. But they're not. You can't argue that overcosted models are good, just because other models are overcosted.

Bringing up Forge World... Even ignoring house rules, I don't want to buy a fifty dollar book to add something to my codex which it should have had already.

Waaaghpower wrote:

But arguing that overpriced models are good is, simply put, really really silly. Old One Eye would be totally OP if he was 5 points. But he's not. Flyrants would be terrible if they cost 500 points. But they're not. You can't argue that overcosted models are good, just because other models are overcosted.

Bringing up Forge World... Even ignoring house rules, I don't want to buy a fifty dollar book to add something to my codex which it should have had already.

I'm not really arguing that they're good. I'm arguing that they're no more intolerable than other things in other books that are overpriced. The Imperial Guard book is a great book, despite almost the entire Elites section never seeing play because of how overpriced they are. A few units, which may be over priced (Bjorn and Scouts) does not ruin the book, imo.

You think that your codex, despite being from the middle of 5th, should have had fliers and air defense as if it was a sixth edition book? And I'm sorry you don't want to spend an extra $50 on your army - I'd hate to see what you do when the new 'dex comes out.

a lot of the stuff Im hearing complained about here are simply artifacts of the Space wolves not getting their 6th edition codex yet. I'm sure when it comes out long fangs will be able to take flak missiles. and they'll have the Air Wolf or whatever GW names their flier.

in response to the actual question in the subject, Wolf Lords are "captains" the 4Ws is basicly a "chapter master" thing.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Last I checked, the ruling was that you could take one Chapter Relic per exchanged weapon... So, 2 Chapter Relics. I could be wrong on that one, but it's what I heard.
Give him a Thunder Hammer, and the Chapter Master is now also much cheaper.

Actually no, you may only replace 1 weapon with a Chapter Relic once.

You can, however, combine relics which do not use up your "1 weapon switch". Eg, you may have the Shield Eternal and the Armour Indominadus (or whatever that useless thing's called...)

Iranna.

Space Marines had aircraft before their update. Necrons have aircraft. Orks have aircraft. Guard have aircraft. Blood Angels have aircraft. Heck, Tyranids had a couple options before their update, and an entire (GW, not Forge World) book was released giving Aircraft to other armies.
And I don't mind dropping 50 bucks on my army, I mind dropping 50 bucks, just to get the rules for a handful of models (Which, being Forge World, will also cost an arm and a leg,) when every other army got the same perks for free.

Also, Anpu42 wasn't arguing that the codex was bad, he was just writing a retort to Lobukia's post saying all those things were OP.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Space Marines had aircraft before their update. Necrons have aircraft. Orks have aircraft. Guard have aircraft. Blood Angels have aircraft. Heck, Tyranids had a couple options before their update, and an entire (GW, not Forge World) book was released giving Aircraft to other armies.
And I don't mind dropping 50 bucks on my army, I mind dropping 50 bucks, just to get the rules for a handful of models (Which, being Forge World, will also cost an arm and a leg,) when every other army got the same perks for free.

Also, Anpu42 wasn't arguing that the codex was bad, he was just writing a retort to Lobukia's post saying all those things were OP.

SM did not have aircraft before their update, except through a digital-only (well, limited edition print) $33 book. Necrons were the end of 5th - they were basically a 6th edition codex. Orks got aircraft in a WD, and if you didn't get that WD, then you didn't get aircraft without buying a $33 supplement. Guard had fast skimmers that were totally not balanced to be fliers ever (although they made out positively in the deal). Blood Angels were the very first codex (other than the Guard) who got real aircraft, and they came out after Space Wolves. Tyranids had jump monstrous creatures, which (like Guard) happened to become flyers in 6th - they were not originally intended to do so when the codex was designed. And that $33 dollar book I am talking about is the same one.

As for price, that's true. But the other armies certainly do not get their models and rules for free, and my army is entirely Forge World (I play Armored Battlegroup). Whether or not to spend the money is your prerogative, but I will not accept complaints that SW do not have a flyer transport because people don't like spending money. By that logic, I don't have a flyer transport for my SM because I think $80 for the Storm Raven is ridiculous.

BrianDavion wrote:a lot of the stuff Im hearing complained about here are simply artifacts of the Space wolves not getting their 6th edition codex yet. I'm sure when it comes out long fangs will be able to take flak missiles. and they'll have the Air Wolf or whatever GW names their flier.

in response to the actual question in the subject, Wolf Lords are "captains" the 4Ws is basicly a "chapter master" thing.

Pretty much. GW are renown not updating things for ages even if given the opportunity. As a fellow SW player, I say toughen up and deal with it, it's the nature of 40k for every army that isn't Codex: Space Marines.

Unit1126PLL wrote:As for price, that's true. But the other armies certainly do not get their models and rules for free, and my army is entirely Forge World (I play Armored Battlegroup). Whether or not to spend the money is your prerogative, but I will not accept complaints that SW do not have a flyer transport because people don't like spending money. By that logic, I don't have a flyer transport for my SM because I think $80 for the Storm Raven is ridiculous.

There are many people who simply don't accept FW rules and models in a standard 40k game or do so begrudgingly. My old gaming group you wouldn't make any friends showing up with a FW army unless it was something like an awesomely painted DKOK army (because rule of cool outweighs all else ).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

There are many people who simply don't accept FW rules and models in a standard 40k game or do so begrudgingly. My old gaming group you wouldn't make any friends showing up with a FW army unless it was something like an awesomely painted DKOK army (because rule of cool outweighs all else ).

Regrettably, this is true. However, I do not believe it should be used in a discussion on a forum - after all, it would be like me saying "we houseruled difficult terrain to be 3+d3" as a counter-argument to someone's tactics post. House rules, for better or worse, are best kept in the house.

Steelmage99 wrote:
As long as an Ork Warboss only has three wounds as well, you will take your 3W and be bloody grateful.

This!

When Chaos Lords and Ork Warbosses go up to 4 wounds (or they get an upgrade which specifically allows this), then Wolf Lords can too.

IIRC, not even Abbadon has 4 wounds and he is the freakin Warmaster!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Think what you want, but they're of course going to cost more, and it's not unreasonable to see such skilled troops in the elites slot.

Sure that is why in my IG Vets who are troops are worse then "elite" Stormtroopers.

 rohansoldier wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
As long as an Ork Warboss only has three wounds as well, you will take your 3W and be bloody grateful.

This!

When Chaos Lords and Ork Warbosses go up to 4 wounds (or they get an upgrade which specifically allows this), then Wolf Lords can too.

IIRC, not even Abbadon has 4 wounds and he is the freakin Warmaster!

No Abaddon has 4W and 4Attacks just as the Chapter Master does. Though in fairness, he has many other things going for him.

I dont think he needs 4w.

I play a TWC Squad with WL myself in my army. My build is Bear, PF, Shield, TW-Mount, Runic Armour.

Its a freaking almost unkillable beatstick (ws6, s10, 2+/3++. T5, 3w). In most games he survived with 1 W remaining while tanking a crapton of wounds for his TWC mates and killing alot of stuff in melee (i accompany him with 3 TWC with 1 shield and 1 PF). If he had 4 W i wouldnt even have to think about letting him blindly run into my opponents lines. With 3 wounds at least i have to sometimes shuffle around to protect him after he took 2 wounds somehow.
I dont think its necessary at all ... but that being said i wouldnt complain about it *shrug*

Its always funny to see that people that dont have the slightest clue about space wolves think everyone and their wolfmother would get EW in our army. Its just the WL that can take EW as an upgrade. Even more funny when people think wolfscouts are anything other than total crap in 6th edition

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Eternal Warrior: We have Two Characters with EW and One more they can buy it, along with a W2 Model that if you don’t give a Storm Shield Two along wit 2 Wolves is going get gunned down in 6”-12” from his starting position. And it is not Cheep; it cost more than one of our Terminators

Saga of the Bear

Read it Again.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Scouts: Our Scouts are in a crowded Elite Slot.

And have several advantages over normal SM scouts such as ws/bs 4 and acute senses.

Yes and if I take more than One Scout Squad I get One Less Dread, Terminator Squad or Other Elite Slot. How is this an Superior Advantage? They also Cost more.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Arjac: Cost more than a Fully Kitted out Venerable Dreadnaught.

Also throws a hammer that is as strong as a Hammerhead Rail Gun. Arjac would likely crush a Venerable Dreadnought in combat.

At 6”, now out of a Drop Pod that becomes easyer, but then most units can stay out of threat range as he waddles around.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Björn: Dead with three Glances

Just like every other dreadnought in the game? Every single one?

Yes and… Before 6th he was a beast who you could stand on a hill and command your army without worry. Now, he must hide in fear from most armies who can take him out in the first turn.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Grey Hunters: Have to move to Shoot and entrenched Target. If we want Ld 9 and a Transport we give up the second Special Weapon and an Elite Slot.

I don't understand the first point (I can't parse your sentence). As for the second, in trade for that you gain counter-attack, the ability to take two special weapons at all (marines get one special and one heavy, which is awkward). And wolf guard are a wonderful unit, and have the capability to bring a cyclone missile launcher or assault cannon to support their squads. Boo hoo, you can't bring another plasma gun

.
It is simple, I have to leave cover to be able to shoot at my enemies. This now leave me venerable to the Mass of AP2/AP3 Weapons out there. So now I have to take a Transport of some sort, this means a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, all are good choices, but the moment you toss in a Wolf Guard...
>Rhino: I loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Razorback: I must take a 5 Man unit + Wolf Guard. At least Tactical Squads can Combat Squad and leave the Heavy Weapon Behind. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Drop Pod: loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is an Option, but cost me two Models.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Long Fangs: No Anti-Air, No Meat Shields, The choice of losing my Split Fire or a Heavy Weapon.

Except that you HAVE split fire. And if you had meat shields, you wouldn't take them anyways. No one does at 14 points per model - why would you at 15?

Long Fangs have such a reputation that they usually gain “Extra Attention” so they take twice the fire with have the models, that is not an “Advantage”. A 10 man Devastator Squad can handle loosing 4 models without loosing effectiveness, Long Fangs loose 4 models and now you have lost 60%-80% of your strength.

 Anpu42 wrote:

What do we not have:
>No Effective Anti-Aircraft without Allies

Hyperios Air Defense Launcher, Storm Eagle Assault Gunship, Fire Raptor Gunship, Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought

Not everywhere allows Forge World.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No Feel No Pain

You also don't have pretty much the entire Special Rules section too. You could put "don't have blind, don't have hit and run, don't have missile lock, don't have vector strike...". Not everyone gets everything.

A lot of new armies are loosing their EW, bat are replacing it with FNP especially for their HQs. There is one Model in our army that get FNP and it is not “Competative or cost us an Elite Slot, like Terminators, Good Biker Squads, or Scouts.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No Combat Squads

Instead you get counter-attack and an extra Special Weapon.

True, but if I want to use my Razorback I am forced to take only 5 Model Squads.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No FOC Free Units

Dedicated Transports

Everybody get those. Things like, “For Every HQ I can take a Command Squad and/or Tech Marine.” If I want a “Command Squad” it cost us an Elite Slot, if we want a Tech Marine it cost us a Elite Slot.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>No Flying Transports

Storm Eagle Assault Gunship

 Anpu42 wrote:
Read it Again.

I already conceded this one. Codex: SM and Codex: SW can bring the same number of EW models.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes and if I take more than One Scout Squad I get One Less Dread, Terminator Squad or Other Elite Slot. How is this an Superior Advantage? They also Cost more.

I haven't yet played a space wolf player who lamented being short on Elites slots. But if you really want Wolf Scouts to be troops, they should be just like SM scouts, instead of having all those fancy gubbins. As for the price, yes, some models are overpriced. Regrettable but not fatal.

 Anpu42 wrote:
At 6”, now out of a Drop Pod that becomes easyer, but then most units can stay out of threat range as he waddles around.

Put him in a Land Raider. Even without his throwing hammer, he crushes a Venerable Dreadnought in CC.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes and… Before 6th he was a beast who you could stand on a hill and command your army without worry. Now, he must hide in fear from most armies who can take him out in the first turn.

You... you have to hide your dreadnoughts... from antitank weapons? Gosh, I'm glad I don't have to hide my lightly-armored walkers from the enemy's heavy guns. /sarcasm

 Anpu42 wrote:
It is simple, I have to leave cover to be able to shoot at my enemies. This now leave me venerable to the Mass of AP2/AP3 Weapons out there. So now I have to take a Transport of some sort, this means a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, all are good choices, but the moment you toss in a Wolf Guard...

Why do you have to leave cover to shoot at your enemies? Because your range is too short? Tactical marines have exactly the same problem, unless you think a single lascannon shot (the most expensive heavy weapon) is ridiculously better. Which it isn't.

 Anpu42 wrote:
>Rhino: I loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Razorback: I must take a 5 Man unit + Wolf Guard. At least Tactical Squads can Combat Squad and leave the Heavy Weapon Behind. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Drop Pod: loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is an Option, but cost me two Models.

Rhino: Or, you could leave your squad LD8, because ATSKNF pretty much makes LD irrelevant, and have two plasma guns, neither of which are vulnerable to challenges. Seriously, LD8 with ATSKNF isn't bad at all.
Razorback: You haven't actually pointed out any flaws that Space Marines don't have, aside from the fact that the Space Marine player can use Combat Squads, which is covered later.
Drop Pod: You could leave the model count at 8 and bring a Terminator with an Assault Cannon or Cyclone Missile Launcher. Boohoo, you lost your plasma gun. Or you could just run it as a 10 man LD8 squad, like with the Rhino.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Long Fangs have such a reputation that they usually gain “Extra Attention” so they take twice the fire with have the models, that is not an “Advantage”. A 10 man Devastator Squad can handle loosing 4 models without loosing effectiveness, Long Fangs loose 4 models and now you have lost 60%-80% of your strength.

I know no one who takes 10 man Devastators and I've played quite a bit. I've literally never seen any squad of havocs/devastators/anything with the 'extra bodies.' And perhaps Long Fangs get the Extra Attention [sic] because they're so much better than the Devastators?

 Anpu42 wrote:
Not everywhere allows Forge World.

On a forum discussing the merits and demerits of a specific army, I don't believe house rules should come into the discussion unless they are specified in the OP. Otherwise, Guard in my house are underpowered dex because "not everywhere allows platoons" or somesuch nonsense.

 Anpu42 wrote:
A lot of new armies are loosing their EW, bat are replacing it with FNP especially for their HQs. There is one Model in our army that get FNP and it is not “Competative or cost us an Elite Slot, like Terminators, Good Biker Squads, or Scouts.

Like what? I know the Tau have a single commander that can get an FNP wargear, the Iron Hands (of course), and.... who didn't have it before that has it now?

 Anpu42 wrote:
True, but if I want to use my Razorback I am forced to take only 5 Model Squads.

That is never a problem unless you run out of Troops slots. I would be surprised to learn that you have.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Everybody get those. Things like, “For Every HQ I can take a Command Squad and/or Tech Marine.” If I want a “Command Squad” it cost us an Elite Slot, if we want a Tech Marine it cost us a Elite Slot.

Perhaps if your Techmarines were Adeptus Mechanicus adepts like the rest of them, then they'd be less jerks about their FOC. More seriously, though, this is an artefact of the 5th Edition codex structure. Blood Angels still suffer from it as well, as did the 5th Edition Space Marine codex.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Not everywhere allows Forge World.

We should not let house-rules cloud our judgement.

GoliothOnline wrote:
The Palaquin, a Nurgle "Steed" doesn't increase your Toughness Value at all.... By all logic It shouldn't give you +2 Wounds and +1 Attack... It should be +1 Toughness and +2 Wounds...

The Palanquin isn't a steed though. It's a giant throne carried by Nurglings. See Epidemius. Fluffwise, it makes perfect sense why this isn't as tough as a sturdy brass behemoth.

Yes and if I take more than One Scout Squad I get One Less Dread, Terminator Squad or Other Elite Slot. How is this an Superior Advantage? They also Cost more.

You just said dreads are useless, you don't take much terminators, and generally the elite slot is the least taken slot for SW.

At 6”, now out of a Drop Pod that becomes easyer, but then most units can stay out of threat range as he waddles around.

Like every other Infantry CC char? Are you going to complain that Abbadon is horrible because he has to waddle around too?

Yes and… Before 6th he was a beast who you could stand on a hill and command your army without worry. Now, he must hide in fear from most armies who can take him out in the first turn.

Which pretty much was 5th mechhammer in action.

It is simple, I have to leave cover to be able to shoot at my enemies. This now leave me venerable to the Mass of AP2/AP3 Weapons out there. So now I have to take a Transport of some sort, this means a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, all are good choices, but the moment you toss in a Wolf Guard...
>Rhino: I loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Razorback: I must take a 5 Man unit + Wolf Guard. At least Tactical Squads can Combat Squad and leave the Heavy Weapon Behind. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Drop Pod: loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is an Option, but cost me two Models.

Are you really overstating the heavy weapon in the Tac Marine squad list that much? You are LD8 with ASTKNF, come complain when your CSM who is 15 points with CCW/Bolter and still doesn't have the myraid special snowflake rules you get. And vulnerable to challenges? Once again you don't have Champions of Chaos, you aren't vulnerable unless you are trying to make some sort of major CC sarge.

Long Fangs have such a reputation that they usually gain “Extra Attention” so they take twice the fire with have the models, that is not an “Advantage”. A 10 man Devastator Squad can handle loosing 4 models without loosing effectiveness, Long Fangs loose 4 models and now you have lost 60%-80% of your strength.

A 10 man devastator squad is wasting points, and I have honestly never seen anyone take that.

Everybody get those. Things like, “For Every HQ I can take a Command Squad and/or Tech Marine.” If I want a “Command Squad” it cost us an Elite Slot, if we want a Tech Marine it cost us a Elite Slot.

Tech marines are bad, and your Wolfguard are pretty good.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Said stuff

Well I don’t agree with everything you say, I feel we both made our points.

For the Record, most of us are not “Whining” we just want some updates.

If you look here you will see what most of us want:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/573473.page

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Said stuff

Well I don’t agree with everything you say, I feel we both made our points.

For the Record, most of us are not “Whining” we just want some updates.

If you look here you will see what most of us want:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/573473.page

More special rules to make Space Wolves better then C:SM again? Honestly, that list.

 Anpu42 wrote:

>Rhino: I loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Razorback: I must take a 5 Man unit + Wolf Guard. At least Tactical Squads can Combat Squad and leave the Heavy Weapon Behind. Also Terminator Armor is not an Option.
>Drop Pod: loose my Plasma-Gun and one Model to Gain an extra Model with LD9 and a Comb-Plasma and Vulnerable to Challenges. Also Terminator Armor is an Option, but cost me two Models.

1. Minor quibble, but it's "lose" not "loose"

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


More special rules to make Space Wolves better then C:SM again? Honestly, that list.

Oh wow, you're right. That list of Great Company Saga's is completely ridiculous.

QUOTE: I know no one who takes 10 man Devastators and I've played quite a bit. I've literally never seen any squad of havocs/devastators/anything with the 'extra bodies.' And perhaps Long Fangs get the Extra Attention [sic] because they're so much better than the Devastators? END QUOTE

I actually know a marine player who takes 10 man devastators with 2 lascannons and 2 heavy bolters and then combat squads them. It works pretty well too, especially with his imperial fist chapter tactics.

Also, Long Fangs are cheap and more efficient than devastators with split fire. That is why they don't get extra bodies (plus fluff reasons of course).

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Said stuff

Well I don’t agree with everything you say, I feel we both made our points.

For the Record, most of us are not “Whining” we just want some updates.

If you look here you will see what most of us want:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/573473.page

More special rules to make Space Wolves better then C:SM again? Honestly, that list.

Well currently I don't think we are better than C:SM.

What I realy want is people stop complaining about us getting our own Codex, Diffrent Rules and for me personaly not being called a Band wagon player this time around.
But lets be serious that is never going to happen.

 Anpu42 wrote:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/573473.page

Holy feth! I play Space Wolves and even I think that's a crazy list!

Space Wolves are very much superior to other MEQ codices out there. The big problem is the lack of in-codex Skyfire and/or a flier, which ought to be remedied. Other than that the codex is still pretty bonkers, even in the age of shooty xenos of death.

On topic...did we ever agree on the Wounds thing?

Likan Wolfsheim wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/573473.page

Holy feth! I play Space Wolves and even I think that's a crazy list!

Space Wolves are very much superior to other MEQ codices out there. The big problem is the lack of in-codex Skyfire and/or a flier, which ought to be remedied. Other than that the codex is still pretty bonkers, even in the age of shooty xenos of death.

On topic...did we ever agree on the Wounds thing?

I agree, that's waaay oveepowered. It'd put us up there with Eldar and Tau. (Assuming we got dem flyers 'n stuffs...)
And I think the general consensus was that Wolf Lords should be cheaper, or else Thunderwolves should give +1 Wound.

Space Wolves have pretty much always been the best loyalist chapter. Except in 3rd, where it was BA. So that's what? 4 years of not being the best loyalist chapter?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Said stuff

Well I don’t agree with everything you say, I feel we both made our points.

For the Record, most of us are not “Whining” we just want some updates.

If you look here you will see what most of us want:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/573473.page

More special rules to make Space Wolves better then C:SM again? Honestly, that list.

Well currently I don't think we are better than C:SM.

What I realy want is people stop complaining about us getting our own Codex, Diffrent Rules and for me personaly not being called a Band wagon player this time around.
But lets be serious that is never going to happen.

Ever since 2nd edition space wolves and their terminator squads full of Cyclones and Assault cannons they've always been SM + 1

Grey Hunters are better tactical marines, but better costing at the time, 2 specials, a terminator sarge. Not to mention better devastators, better assault, and overall they've been that way.

Such as DA being the Precursor to new SM codex rules, SW has been the one to make them far better and more cost-effective.

You aren't better because you are an edition behind, that is literally the issue now, even BA players have far more issues then SW in this current edition.

 Wilytank wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
The Palaquin, a Nurgle "Steed" doesn't increase your Toughness Value at all.... By all logic It shouldn't give you +2 Wounds and +1 Attack... It should be +1 Toughness and +2 Wounds...

The Palanquin isn't a steed though. It's a giant throne carried by Nurglings. See Epidemius. Fluffwise, it makes perfect sense why this isn't as tough as a sturdy brass behemoth.

CSM Dex page 67 has the Palaquin listed under the Daemonic Steeds. It changed the model to Very Bulky.

What the SW need is a new flyer. It shall be named the Skywolf and fire Wolfclaw missiles. It shall be much better than the Stormraven yet be 50 points cheaper.

To be honest, I am very satisfied with the current SW codex.
The only thing we need is a flyer, some anti-air perhaps and cheaper jump packs for Wolf Guard.

As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

Your Chapter Tactics (which is better than most if not all on Troops) is Acute Senses, Counter-Attack and extra CCW. Wolf doodahs are just extra options that don't have an equivalent for C:SM.

2 Special Weapons is a big deal because it lets the squad be more specialized than if they'd be able to take just one. More specialization => more efficient damage.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

Your Chapter Tactics (which is better than most if not all on Troops) is Acute Senses, Counter-Attack and extra CCW. Wolf doodahs are just extra options that don't have an equivalent for C:SM.

2 Special Weapons is a big deal because it lets the squad be more specialized than if they'd be able to take just one. More specialization => more efficient damage.

Acute Senses: Yes, it is good for out Scouts and if you can pull off an outflank, it might as well be a Unit Special Ability as much as it has been useful to the rest of the army.
Counter Attack: That is great and I love it, but I have not gotten to make use of it a lot as lots of armies now have Defensive Grenades.
Extra CCW: We are playing and extra point for that Knife.
Second Special Weapon: That is nice, but there are times I would love to have a Heavy Bolter or the 24” range of a Multi-Melta.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

Your Chapter Tactics (which is better than most if not all on Troops) is Acute Senses, Counter-Attack and extra CCW. Wolf doodahs are just extra options that don't have an equivalent for C:SM.

2 Special Weapons is a big deal because it lets the squad be more specialized than if they'd be able to take just one. More specialization => more efficient damage.

Acute Senses: Yes, it is good for out Scouts and if you can pull off an outflank, it might as well be a Unit Special Ability as much as it has been useful to the rest of the army.
Counter Attack: That is great and I love it, but I have not gotten to make use of it a lot as lots of armies now have Defensive Grenades.
Extra CCW: We are playing and extra point for that Knife.
Second Special Weapon: That is nice, but there are times I would love to have a Heavy Bolter or the 24” range of a Multi-Melta.

You're an edition behind, and you're still better off. That should be telling you something.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

Your Chapter Tactics (which is better than most if not all on Troops) is Acute Senses, Counter-Attack and extra CCW. Wolf doodahs are just extra options that don't have an equivalent for C:SM.

2 Special Weapons is a big deal because it lets the squad be more specialized than if they'd be able to take just one. More specialization => more efficient damage.

Acute Senses: Yes, it is good for out Scouts and if you can pull off an outflank, it might as well be a Unit Special Ability as much as it has been useful to the rest of the army.
Counter Attack: That is great and I love it, but I have not gotten to make use of it a lot as lots of armies now have Defensive Grenades.
Extra CCW: We are playing and extra point for that Knife.
Second Special Weapon: That is nice, but there are times I would love to have a Heavy Bolter or the 24” range of a Multi-Melta.

You're an edition behind, and you're still better off. That should be telling you something.

And what are you referring to:
Acute Senses: I get to re-roll for my Outflanking Roll.
Counter Attack: Defensive Grenades don’t effect this?
Extra CCW: Marines 14ppm, Grey Hunters 15ppm, we are paying for a the knife.
Second Special Weapon: This has changes in 6th how?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

Your Chapter Tactics (which is better than most if not all on Troops) is Acute Senses, Counter-Attack and extra CCW. Wolf doodahs are just extra options that don't have an equivalent for C:SM.

2 Special Weapons is a big deal because it lets the squad be more specialized than if they'd be able to take just one. More specialization => more efficient damage.

Acute Senses: Yes, it is good for out Scouts and if you can pull off an outflank, it might as well be a Unit Special Ability as much as it has been useful to the rest of the army.
Counter Attack: That is great and I love it, but I have not gotten to make use of it a lot as lots of armies now have Defensive Grenades.
Extra CCW: We are playing and extra point for that Knife.
Second Special Weapon: That is nice, but there are times I would love to have a Heavy Bolter or the 24” range of a Multi-Melta.

You're an edition behind, and you're still better off. That should be telling you something.

And what are you referring to:
Acute Senses: I get to re-roll for my Outflanking Roll.
Counter Attack: Defensive Grenades don’t effect this?
Extra CCW: Marines 14ppm, Grey Hunters 15ppm, we are paying for a the knife.
Second Special Weapon: This has changes in 6th how?

So you want to be even more inexpensive then CSM but with all the goodies and better?

You know Grey Hunters are supposed to be more then SM, considering SM used to be 16 and them 17, but you still beat them out on the edge.

And no, the heavy in most cases does worse off then a second special weapon.

It's actually true. Honestly 2 heavy weapons is better than one special and one heavy. Then again the game seems to rely on specialization. If you move, the heavy isn't worth it. if not, your special might not even be in optimal range.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As a Black Templars player, be careful what you wish for. Your Wolf Lords might just be renamed "Chapter Masters" and your Grey Hunters "Tactical Squads".

Plus, come now, Counter-Attack, extra CCW, double specials and all your wolf-trinkets are far superior to Chapter Tactics on basic Troops.

I have do disagree on one point, you get your “Chapter Tactics“ [Wolf Standard] for free, we have to pay for it.
I still don’t see where Two Special Weapons is such a Big Deal. Yes it is a factor, but is not like if Tactical squads got them it would be a game changer.

Your Chapter Tactics (which is better than most if not all on Troops) is Acute Senses, Counter-Attack and extra CCW. Wolf doodahs are just extra options that don't have an equivalent for C:SM.

2 Special Weapons is a big deal because it lets the squad be more specialized than if they'd be able to take just one. More specialization => more efficient damage.

Acute Senses: Yes, it is good for out Scouts and if you can pull off an outflank, it might as well be a Unit Special Ability as much as it has been useful to the rest of the army.
Counter Attack: That is great and I love it, but I have not gotten to make use of it a lot as lots of armies now have Defensive Grenades.
Extra CCW: We are playing and extra point for that Knife.
Second Special Weapon: That is nice, but there are times I would love to have a Heavy Bolter or the 24” range of a Multi-Melta.

You're an edition behind, and you're still better off. That should be telling you something.

And what are you referring to:
Acute Senses: I get to re-roll for my Outflanking Roll.
Counter Attack: Defensive Grenades don’t effect this?
Extra CCW: Marines 14ppm, Grey Hunters 15ppm, we are paying for a the knife.
Second Special Weapon: This has changes in 6th how?

So you want to be even more inexpensive then CSM but with all the goodies and better?

You know Grey Hunters are supposed to be more then SM, considering SM used to be 16 and them 17, but you still beat them out on the edge.

And no, the heavy in most cases does worse off then a second special weapon.

When did I say Cheeper, I am happy where there are now.
As far as the Heavy Weapon, I find it very nice to have with my Tactical Squads.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Counter Attack: Defensive Grenades don’t effect this?

Nope, Defensive Grenades don't effect that. Defensive Grenades only affect the charge bonus. Counter Attack is not a charge bonus.

I think people need to cool their jets just a hair. Tacticals with their chapter tactics have become much more useful. But like all things you need a plan. You need to put them in position to get the most out of their chapter tactics otherwise its rather defeating the point. In some cases you want the heavy, in some you want the special.

The main falicy is that people assume that tacticals and Grey Hunters actually do the same job. They don't, each has their own specialization and dont work well at all if taken out of their roll.

what people really want is not better, but worth it. Grey hunters could come out with 10s or even 2s for every stat and as long as they are pointed approperately to be "worth it" there will be no complaints. Thats all most SW players want. Unfortunatly what someone considers "worth it" depends entirely on personal opinion and above all personal play style.

The same can be said for Wolf Lords and 4 wounds. As long as the points paid make it "worth it" and fair, I don't think anyone would object to it.

 Jayden63 wrote:
The main falicy is that people assume that tacticals and Grey Hunters actually do the same job. They don't, each has their own specialization and dont work well at all if taken out of their roll.

I have been saying this since the 5th Edition Space Wolf Codex Came out.

Wolf Guard Battle Leadres have W2
Wolf Lords have W3
I would like to see W4, but we would need to add something in between the WGBL and Wolf Lord.

Why do Grey Hunters and Tacticals not fulfil the same roles then? They've got the same armour and statline and the same basic rifle. They're both most effective at ranges below 12" both due to Rapid Fire and due to their Special Weapons being short-ranged. They've got ATSKNF to (in theory, practice is another issue...) protect them in close combat. How are they different?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Why do Grey Hunters and Tacticals not fulfil the same roles then? They've got the same armour and statline and the same basic rifle. They're both most effective at ranges below 12" both due to Rapid Fire and due to their Special Weapons being short-ranged. They've got ATSKNF to (in theory, practice is another issue...) protect them in close combat. How are they different?

Tactical Squads are suposed to take on multible Roles: Couter Assualt [Flamers], Long Range Anti-Tank [Las-Cannons, Missile Launchers, Plasma Cannon], Anti-Swarm [Heavy Bolter, Missile Launchers, Plasma Cannons], Mid Range Anti-Tanks [Melta-Guns, Multi-Melta] and Anti-MC [Plasma-Guns, Plasma Cannons] I am not saying they are good or bad at thier jobs, but they can fill all of these rolls.

Grey Hunter are supposed to be an agresive Mid-Range Unit filling a number of Rolls: Counter Assualt [Flamers], Anti-Swarm [Flamers, Plasma Guns] Mid to Short Range Anti-Tank/Anti-MC [Melta Guns/Plasma-Guns] and also fills the Assualt Squad Role.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Why do Grey Hunters and Tacticals not fulfil the same roles then? They've got the same armour and statline and the same basic rifle. They're both most effective at ranges below 12" both due to Rapid Fire and due to their Special Weapons being short-ranged. They've got ATSKNF to (in theory, practice is another issue...) protect them in close combat. How are they different?

Its the whole, heavy weapon, combat squad, special weapon issue. Is there any reason to ever put the heavy weapon guy at 12" to the enemy? No. Combat squading allow you to take 5 guys and baby sit an objective in your deployment zone and still effect the rest of the playing field with your 36 - 48 heavy weapon. Especially if you stick a razorback back there to block some LOS and add more fire down field. Now you take the other 5 guys and their special weapon and move forward along with 2-3 other 5 man special weapon teams to advance under special weapon fire.

Tacticals are designed to hurt from up close and from afar. Most importantly they are designed to work with multiple unit focusing their efforts together. Grey hunters have to close and any sitting on a back objective are doing just that. Sitting and unless someone gets close they have negligible damage output. I will admit that their counter charge ability does make them great objective sitters. They also have the equipment to work more indepentantly of other units. CC ability and two short range special weapons allows them to be effective if they can get close enough.

They do work differently if you play to each units strengths. Especially if you consider each ones special abilities.

Everyone is comparing Grey Hunters to Tactical Marines. If you believed this thread, you might actually think that Tactical Marines are good!

Its the whole, heavy weapon, combat squad, special weapon issue. Is there any reason to ever put the heavy weapon guy at 12" to the enemy? No. Combat squading allow you to take 5 guys and baby sit an objective in your deployment zone and still effect the rest of the playing field with your 36 - 48 heavy weapon. Especially if you stick a razorback back there to block some LOS and add more fire down field. Now you take the other 5 guys and their special weapon and move forward along with 2-3 other 5 man special weapon teams to advance under special weapon fire.

Which is a very expensive point waste, considering that you are simply seating the backfield with one heavy weapon firing, it's very inefficient especially in the current meta.

Also walking down the field with 5 guys in squads? They'd be annihilated, even more inefficient.

Tacticals are designed to hurt from up close and from afar. Most importantly they are designed to work with multiple unit focusing their efforts together. Grey hunters have to close and any sitting on a back objective are doing just that. Sitting and unless someone gets close they have negligible damage output. I will admit that their counter charge ability does make them great objective sitters. They also have the equipment to work more indepentantly of other units. CC ability and two short range special weapons allows them to be effective if they can get close enough.

Grey hunters are designed with a far clearer purpose then tacticals rather then that waste of points you mentioned, you get up close with two special weapons, firing while at the same time defended by counter-attack and CCW/BP means you are doing your upfield job far more effectively, it's why GH still do far better then Tacticals.

While you won't be combat squadding, why would you need to? Your point is clear to get up midfield, take objectives, and deal with threats. Tacticals are so badly mishmashed that combat squadding only reduces the overall output of the squad.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Put him in a Land Raider. Even without his throwing hammer, he crushes a Venerable Dreadnought in CC.

Need I point out how ridiculously expensive doing this would be? Besides, he isn't really effective for how much he costs.

Ogopogo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Put him in a Land Raider. Even without his throwing hammer, he crushes a Venerable Dreadnought in CC.

Need I point out how ridiculously expensive doing this would be? Besides, he isn't really effective for how much he costs.

Neither are many things in many codecies. Be happy you aren't forced to take subpar units.

You need to remember the number one rule for winning the game. Play the mission. In a game where 9 out of 10 missions are objective missions, how is it ever a bad thing to be able to go from 4-6 scoring unit to 8 - 12.

If I had this ability, you would bet I'd stack the odds in my favor for each and every objective I got to place on my side of the field. I can now sit two to four units with long range weapons where we can support each other if the enemy gets close.

Also Id rather have two units of 5 with one special weapon apiece instead of one unit of 10 with two special weapons. You limit the amount of damage a single bad die roll or overwhelming firepower can inflict.

But its to each their own. List building has a lot to do with playstyle as much as raw force. What works for one person may not work for another simply because they don't have the same agressive nature or willing to take the same chances.

GoliothOnline wrote:
The cost of taking a Jugernaught, or Palaquin just to give him extra wounds and Toughness isn't worth what comes with the package... Taking the Palaquin, doesn't increase your Toughness for instance... It just gives you Wounds... Taking the Juggernaught, gives you +1 Attack / Toughenss and Wounds... Arguable the best in the package... But on the wrong type of Lord... Terribly packaged... The Palaquin, a Nurgle "Steed" doesn't increase your Toughness Value at all.... By all logic It shouldn't give you +2 Wounds and +1 Attack... It should be +1 Toughness and +2 Wounds...

The Dex was ill thought out and terrible... Taking a Nurgle Lord just to unlock Plague Marines, costs you his point cost divided into the number of Plague Marines you decide to take.... Does that seem right to you? He doesn't get the privilege of ever taking a piece of Wargear which bestows EW... The best he can hope for is T6 so that str 10 weapons cannot ID him.... Like.... A Power Fist.... Chaos Lords got such a disgustingly raw deal in terms of both usefulness and actual purpose for the Dex...

I am going to have to disagree with you, like, a lot.

And also you're watering down your own arguments with excessive and incorrect uses of ellipses. Just use one period! Trust me, it makes words much more powerful.

Chaos Lords can totally wreck things. You just have to pay around 150 points. Cosindering they will be your warlord most the time, it's just the way of things this edition. Either go with a really cheap HQ unit who's barebones just to be your warlord and then hide him all game, or make him cost the equivalent of 10 chaos marines and watch him become a wrecking ball who'll hopefully kill more than 10 marines ever could.

The Nurgle "steed" isn't a steed really. It's basically tons of extra wounds. You're still t5 because of the Mark of Nurgle so it's not like you have to sweat instant death all that much, and 5 wounds is a ton for a warlord unit. Still, I feel like a Chaos Lord of Nurgle is best on a bike for that T6. I feel like the Palanquin is more for Nurgle Sorcerers. 4 wounds on a sorcerer is awesome.

Have you ever faced a Juggernaut Khorne Lord wielding the Axe of Blind Fury? Dude gets like 9-14 attacks on the charge, all made at S6 AP2 I5. I don't believe there's a way in the game to have that many attacks made at that strength and AP in close combat in the game outside of monstrous creatures, which are actually significantly more expensive than the Juggerlord would be. Again, T5 so you only have to worry about S10 weaponry and MCs. Actually, with MCs, you still only really have to worry about other chaos players and their Daemon Princes as he'll kill any Tau MC and most Tyranid MCs before they get to strike, barring some totally abyssmal luck. Obviously that's a risky proposition, but it's worth noting.

No.

If a hive tyrant is only four wounds....

No.

Honestly the Palanquin isn't really worth it. But juggernauts? Depends. Just a Chaos Lord writing a juggerlord isn't really worth giving much regard. But a Juggerlord wielding an axe of blind fury? Now that thing is a beast. Sure it has a chance of wounding itself on a roll of a 1 and then getting a WS and BS of 1 for the turn (its happened to me 3 times before) but its worth the risk! I'd argue you haver to worry about Daemon Princes, Lords of Change, and probably the Bloodthirster and Keeper of Secrets. As you mentioned though, the juggerlord is a nasty unit that tears enemies apart.

The thing is, Goliath did mentioned that the juggernaut is great, on certain types of lords. It's not really worth it all that much unless you give it the axe of blind fury. What? You already markedh im khorne and shoved him on a juggernaut, it would be heresy to not give him an axe that makes him swing like a raving madman

yea SM chapter masters didn't need a 4th W, that is as many as a Hive tyrant and you have way better protection, he is lucky if he gets a 2+ armour for a round of CC, let alone having a 2+/3+ all the time and T6 don't help as much as you would think. So be happy with what you have.

 Jayden63 wrote:
You need to remember the number one rule for winning the game. Play the mission. In a game where 9 out of 10 missions are objective missions, how is it ever a bad thing to be able to go from 4-6 scoring unit to 8 - 12.

If I had this ability, you would bet I'd stack the odds in my favor for each and every objective I got to place on my side of the field. I can now sit two to four units with long range weapons where we can support each other if the enemy gets close.

Also Id rather have two units of 5 with one special weapon apiece instead of one unit of 10 with two special weapons. You limit the amount of damage a single bad die roll or overwhelming firepower can inflict.

But its to each their own. List building has a lot to do with playstyle as much as raw force. What works for one person may not work for another simply because they don't have the same agressive nature or willing to take the same chances.

I'm not really sure where you play where 5 model units aren't destroyed outright by fire, but to each it's own I suppose.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
You need to remember the number one rule for winning the game. Play the mission. In a game where 9 out of 10 missions are objective missions, how is it ever a bad thing to be able to go from 4-6 scoring unit to 8 - 12.

If I had this ability, you would bet I'd stack the odds in my favor for each and every objective I got to place on my side of the field. I can now sit two to four units with long range weapons where we can support each other if the enemy gets close.

Also Id rather have two units of 5 with one special weapon apiece instead of one unit of 10 with two special weapons. You limit the amount of damage a single bad die roll or overwhelming firepower can inflict.

But its to each their own. List building has a lot to do with playstyle as much as raw force. What works for one person may not work for another simply because they don't have the same agressive nature or willing to take the same chances.

I'm not really sure where you play where 5 model units aren't destroyed outright by fire, but to each it's own I suppose.

I think it is "Each Meta to it's Own.".

I sure would love to have a 20 point model with 2W, Eternal Warrior, reroll hits on MCs, WS5, FEEL NO PAIN (Yes, it exists in the SW codex) and doesn't confer VPs when dead in MY codex.

Oh wait, but I have 18 point Chosen! Oh....

herpguy wrote:
I sure would love to have a 20 point model with 2W, Eternal Warrior, reroll hits on MCs, WS5, FEEL NO PAIN (Yes, it exists in the SW codex) and doesn't confer VPs when dead in MY codex.

Oh wait, but I have 18 point Chosen! Oh....

Yes and they can't lead units, be joined by Characters and has to run across the table.
If they don't die they give up a VP, I actualy lost a game this way.

 SRSFACE wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
The cost of taking a Jugernaught, or Palaquin just to give him extra wounds and Toughness isn't worth what comes with the package... Taking the Palaquin, doesn't increase your Toughness for instance... It just gives you Wounds... Taking the Juggernaught, gives you +1 Attack / Toughenss and Wounds... Arguable the best in the package... But on the wrong type of Lord... Terribly packaged... The Palaquin, a Nurgle "Steed" doesn't increase your Toughness Value at all.... By all logic It shouldn't give you +2 Wounds and +1 Attack... It should be +1 Toughness and +2 Wounds...

The Dex was ill thought out and terrible... Taking a Nurgle Lord just to unlock Plague Marines, costs you his point cost divided into the number of Plague Marines you decide to take.... Does that seem right to you? He doesn't get the privilege of ever taking a piece of Wargear which bestows EW... The best he can hope for is T6 so that str 10 weapons cannot ID him.... Like.... A Power Fist.... Chaos Lords got such a disgustingly raw deal in terms of both usefulness and actual purpose for the Dex...

I am going to have to disagree with you, like, a lot.

And also you're watering down your own arguments with excessive and incorrect uses of ellipses. Just use one period! Trust me, it makes words much more powerful.

Chaos Lords can totally wreck things. You just have to pay around 150 points. Cosindering they will be your warlord most the time, it's just the way of things this edition. Either go with a really cheap HQ unit who's barebones just to be your warlord and then hide him all game, or make him cost the equivalent of 10 chaos marines and watch him become a wrecking ball who'll hopefully kill more than 10 marines ever could.

The Nurgle "steed" isn't a steed really. It's basically tons of extra wounds. You're still t5 because of the Mark of Nurgle so it's not like you have to sweat instant death all that much, and 5 wounds is a ton for a warlord unit. Still, I feel like a Chaos Lord of Nurgle is best on a bike for that T6. I feel like the Palanquin is more for Nurgle Sorcerers. 4 wounds on a sorcerer is awesome.

Have you ever faced a Juggernaut Khorne Lord wielding the Axe of Blind Fury? Dude gets like 9-14 attacks on the charge, all made at S6 AP2 I5. I don't believe there's a way in the game to have that many attacks made at that strength and AP in close combat in the game outside of monstrous creatures, which are actually significantly more expensive than the Juggerlord would be. Again, T5 so you only have to worry about S10 weaponry and MCs. Actually, with MCs, you still only really have to worry about other chaos players and their Daemon Princes as he'll kill any Tau MC and most Tyranid MCs before they get to strike, barring some totally abyssmal luck. Obviously that's a risky proposition, but it's worth noting.

Have you seen what 1 Vindicator does? I sure as hell have.

I have a good amount of games under my belt to know what I'm talking about with the poor, poor CSM Dex. Chaos Lords are garbage. The Juggernaught Lord is ONLY ever used in collaboration with Spawn to soak up wounds to get him into CC. Competitively he doesn't perform well and is a point sink. Lets also not forget that a roll of 1 is a lot more common over the course of a years worth of games where your Lord can be a meatbag for an entire round of combat.

The topic was about the Palaquin and how it doesn't offer T6. It instead gives you Wounds. Which It shouldn't, it shouldn't even give you the +1 Attack neither. Converting the +1 Attack to +1 Toughness would have made it actually used. Instead they botched it.

I played CSM competitively for a good deal of time and tried dozens of builds with my Lords. They aren't competitive. A Daemon Prince will always be more valuable points wise and will always out perform the Chaos Lord, no matter his build. And again, taking a lord means you have to devide his point value into the Elites you are taking as troops. If you don't make ample use of those said Elite-Converts you might as well not take them at all. I have had MUCH better results simply taking Cultists as troops and Plague Marines as Elites for instance. The 65+15+X+X in points you would need to invest in a Chaos Lord of Nurgle would never be worth it.

While you've brought up the subject on Juggerlords though, try bringing Kharn instead. I've played Chaos vs Chaos and watched Kharn tear through a Juggerlord like he was paper on all accounts. The Lord doesn't have what it takes for his inevitable value.

On a completely off track note, I've also seen what happens when you try to throw a Juggerlord at something that should be easy to destroy, like a Riptide. Roll something terrible, weather it be not enough hits / wounds, or a simple 1 on your trusty Daemon Weapon and you're dead. Splat. You just got pancaked by a Riptide. He is only ever Str 6 anyways, the only way you can reliably increase his Strength is to put him with CSMs who have the Icon of Wrath for Furious Charge. (And why the hell does the Axe of Blind Fury give you Rage anyways?... ONLY Mark of Khorne appropriate models can take it, and the Mark of Khorne already gives you Rage. The dex was thought out for specifically Daemon Princes.)

 StarTrotter wrote:
Honestly the Palanquin isn't really worth it. But juggernauts? Depends. Just a Chaos Lord writing a juggerlord isn't really worth giving much regard. But a Juggerlord wielding an axe of blind fury? Now that thing is a beast. Sure it has a chance of wounding itself on a roll of a 1 and then getting a WS and BS of 1 for the turn (its happened to me 3 times before) but its worth the risk! I'd argue you haver to worry about Daemon Princes, Lords of Change, and probably the Bloodthirster and Keeper of Secrets. As you mentioned though, the juggerlord is a nasty unit that tears enemies apart.

The thing is, Goliath did mentioned that the juggernaut is great, on certain types of lords. It's not really worth it all that much unless you give it the axe of blind fury. What? You already markedh im khorne and shoved him on a juggernaut, it would be heresy to not give him an axe that makes him swing like a raving madman

I agree the Palanquin is kind of the odd man out in the God steeds compared to just a bike, as the other 3 are all awesome (outflank + acute senses = bueno, +1 attack rather than a TL boltgun and an additional would with the Juggernaut, extreme mobility through the jetbike Disc of Tzeentch and it's still +1T) but it has it's place, especially if you run Black Legion supplement. A Palanquin Sorcerer with the Skull of Kergnal or whatever it's called that grants EW and AW is nasty. Really difficult to take out, especially if he manages to roll any of the sillier powers on the Biomancy table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoliothOnline wrote:

Have you seen what 1 Vindicator does? I sure as hell have.

Your guy that has 12" move is having issues with Vindicators? Sounds like the rest of the army needs to be tweaked if that's the case.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
You need to remember the number one rule for winning the game. Play the mission. In a game where 9 out of 10 missions are objective missions, how is it ever a bad thing to be able to go from 4-6 scoring unit to 8 - 12.

If I had this ability, you would bet I'd stack the odds in my favor for each and every objective I got to place on my side of the field. I can now sit two to four units with long range weapons where we can support each other if the enemy gets close.

Also Id rather have two units of 5 with one special weapon apiece instead of one unit of 10 with two special weapons. You limit the amount of damage a single bad die roll or overwhelming firepower can inflict.

But its to each their own. List building has a lot to do with playstyle as much as raw force. What works for one person may not work for another simply because they don't have the same agressive nature or willing to take the same chances.

I'm not really sure where you play where 5 model units aren't destroyed outright by fire, but to each it's own I suppose.

Five models are killed out right. No LD check for the other 5, and if they do six unsaved wounds, its still only five guys. If the enemy charges them, only five guys will get wiped out, not ten. Or better yet, if they do charge ten guys thats a multicharge, thus their charge bonues go away.

Its the foundation of MSU. Its not 5 guys. If 4 groups of 5 guys working close together. But yeah, to each meta to its own.

So I'm going to start this post with some general tactical thoughts concerning scoring.

It's actually 5 out of 6 missions are objective missions, assuming we're talking about just the BRB stuff here. 83.33%~ is not 90%. They're close, I know, but I'm nitpicky. And then 2/5 of the objective missions give scoring to other choices. So, really, only 50% of missions are troop-dependent when it comes to primary objectives. Then there are secondary objectives, none of which are troop dependent (personally I really, really hate these). So the 50% that require troops are:

-The Emperor's Will: Each player gets an objective.
-The Relic: One portable objective.
-Crusade: D3+2 objectives.

Troops *usually* bring more 'scoring power' than they do killing power, and then the other slots are where you go for killing power, (this is especially true of Tactical Squads, in my experience) among other types of 'powers' which I won't go into at this moment. Unfortunately, it's fairly easy to control missions like Emperor's Will or The Relic using units' killing power to keep enemies off the objectives (and my experience is that an army winning via killing power tends to easily get Linebreaker by the end, too). When there are only two objectives you only need to have one to win--the enemy just has to be off theirs. With only one objective the side who kills everything that gets close to the relic for 4 turns can swoop in and get it before the game ends, or just dismantle the enemy army and go for secondaries.

Really, I'm only concerned about having ample troops when there are d3+2 objectives and no other scoring slots (so, 1 out of every 6 games, or roughly 16.67% of them). Even then using killing power over scoring power is still a very viable approach to winning these games. The top dogs (Tau and Eldar in particular, but also the likes of Helldrake-heavy lists) do very well because they have extraordinary killing power that can nuke scoring units off objectives pretty much wherever they please (admittedly Eldar get a ton of their killing power from Wave Serpents which are taking with units that provide scoring, so they don't even have much of a trade off in this regard).

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Now on to the Space Wolf-specific stuff. Grey Hunters and Tactical Marines are designed for very different roles. Tactical Marines bring equipment versatility and flexible scoring power (the option to split into Combat Squads is a big part of this), whereas Grey Hunters bring pure mid-short range killing power. Acute Senses is garbage on Grey Hunters right now, but Counter-Attack is still fairly worthwhile when you're rapid-firing enemies in the face--when you're winning a shooting match a lot of times an opponent will try to charge (even if it's not necessarily with a CC specialist) just to keep the guns silent, and Counter Attack helps dissuade the opponent from doing that or can get you out of an assault quicker. Other Chapter Tactics are better, I will agree there, but I still don't think that Tactical Marines doing their job are anywhere near as good as Grey Hunters doing theirs.

A full Grey Hunter squad has available to it up to 2 Special Weapons (which are 5pts cheaper than their C:SM equivalents), a Plasma Pistol, a Power Weapon/Fist that can't be challenged, a Wulfen, and Wolf Standard and can take a rhino or drop pod. A full tactical squad can buy a veteran sergeant (Ld9), and any two of: a combi-weapon, plasma/grav pistol, or Power Weapon/Fist. Then they can buy 1 special and 1 heavy weapon and a rhino/razorback (using Combat Squads to make use of it)/drop pod.

The Grey Hunters just seem like a much better deal. Marine armies are plagued by generalists in an environment where non-MEQ armies dominate using efficiently specialised killing power. Grey Hunters are more specialised than Tactical Squads, and this makes them more-efficient when doing their job. While I think that Tactical Marines ought to be re-balanced in a way that lets them stand up to specialised troops and still do their flexible-generalist job, as a Space Wolf player I do not at all think that Grey Hunters should get the tools to do that job as well (and vice versa). Grey Hunters should never have Combat Squads nor should they ever have Heavy Weapons. More should be done to distinguish the 'basic marines' of each MEQ book from each other. DA should have had something different than just the Tactical Squad, and SW need to stay different. The core unit(s) of a non-codex MEQ army need to be very different in function from the Tactical Squad, otherwise those armies are really more deserving of the Templar treatment or getting shovelled into a supplement.

This coming from a DA and SW player (and GK, and C:SM).

Really, all we need is in-codex Skyfire/Fliers to tackle that aspect of 6th without resorting to out-of-codex support. Other than that SW is still a damn good army.