I play eldar, and am hoping for some clarification. Specifically the terrify power. it forces a morale check on a unit. this is described just fine in the book for all units except FMC.
If used and successful on the psykic check what would the result be? a normal unit if it fails morale will fall back the listed distance. but FMC do not list one. they also do not list any immunity to morale checks. or pinning. same situation really. what would happen? i run eldar psyker heavy, and plan to mess with the psychic pilot flyer. the only weapon they have to use against other air units is the terrify power. but i really dont want to spring this on someone without a better idea of what would happen. is there a rule somewhere that makes them immune?
Also, if they do fall off the board from falling back, do they count as destroyed, or would it be similar to flying off the table while swooping, and return to ongoing reserves?

i would also like to know this, I'm about to start using belakor and play against nids alot. what happens when he uses terrify against a fmc?

FMC move like jump infantry, and so would fall back the same distance.

FMCs move like Jump units, falling back is considered movement, therefore FMCs fall back like Jump units.
Falling back off the board: "It's quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping... If this happens, whether deliberate or not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters Ongoing Reserves." Even if it isn't deliberate, a FMC that leaves the board while swooping always enters Ongoing Reserves.

Ok, had a perusal of the rules. FMCs are not fearless by default, and so take the test as normal.

If they fail the test, they move back 3D6 inches straight towards their board edge, as they retain their turns flight mode and they then move like a Jump MC.

If they leave the board the rules for them specifically state that whether they left it on their own accord or not, they head into Ongoing Reserves.

Glad i could help


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Ah yes, he goes into ongoing ONLY if he is swooping. Gliding he bites the big one.

does it then re-enter on the following player turn or game turn?


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also does the FMC become grounded? which direction is he facing after the move?

 zachwho wrote:
does it then re-enter on the following player turn or game turn?

"Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player's following turn,"

Automatically Appended Next Post:
also does the FMC become grounded? which direction is he facing after the move?

No, as Terrify is not a shooting attack. Whichever direction he will be forced to face after pivoting up to 90 degrees towards their own table.

How would synapse interfere here? If you're within synapse range before fleeing, you automatically regroup. I guess it's intended for the next movement phase of the unit, when it'd "flee" a second time but I'm unsure

After grabbing my books, immediatly after failing a Morale test you're falling back, and synapse states that if a (tyranid) unit is falling back and is in synapse range before moving, it automatically regroups.
I must be missing something ...

They regroup after the fall back move.

Except you never regroup after the move, you always (normally) test beforehand.

I think we are using different terms here. A regroup only takes place after the fall back. Fearless means you auto pass the initial test.

The way it works is take leadership, fall back if failed, then regroup if possible.

Marines with ATSKNF do the same thing. You hit them, they take a leadership and If failed fall back. Then they immediately regroup.

Not having the nid codex on me at the moment, if their rule says something like "automatically regroup" then they would take the leadership check and fall back if it fails. If they happen to run off the board then they are dead ( exempting swooping MC due to the weird rules as shown further up ). If they don't run off the board then they regroup.


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The before moving part is referencing the timing as a regroup test takes place at the beginning of your movement phase. So if the nids run in your opponents shooting, at the beginnin of your movement they regroup.

clively wrote:
I think we are using different terms here. A regroup only takes place after the fall back. Fearless means you auto pass the initial test.

The way it works is take leadership, fall back if failed, then regroup if possible.

Marines with ATSKNF do the same thing. You hit them, they take a leadership and If failed fall back. Then they immediately regroup.

Not having the nid codex on me at the moment, if their rule says something like "automatically regroup" then they would take the leadership check and fall back if it fails. If they happen to run off the board then they are dead ( exempting swooping MC due to the weird rules as shown further up ). If they don't run off the board then they regroup.


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The before moving part is referencing the timing as a regroup test takes place at the beginning of your movement phase. So if the nids run in your opponents shooting, at the beginnin of your movement they regroup.

Synapse specifies that if you're falling back, and you're in synapse before the movement, you automatically regroup.
Immediatly after failing the Ld test, you're falling back. A tyrant for example would always be in synapse range if you Terrify it. Provided it fails the test, it'd fall back immediatly. But before the fall back move, it's in its own Synapse range. Wouldn't it automatically regroup, and thus never "fall back" (the moving part of it)?

 Imperator_Class wrote:



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Ah yes, he goes into ongoing ONLY if he is swooping. Gliding he bites the big one.

This is the question though. if they are falling back, which way are they moving? they only move as jump units if they are gliding. terrify doesnt give/have permission to change their movement mode specifically, so if they are swooping and hit with terrify, then fail morale, are they then forced to be gliding while falling back? no fall back is listed for them as swooping. If they ARE gliding, doesnt that mean they are shootable by other units without keeping hard to hit?

As for synapse and automatically regrouping. does synapse let them regroup on its own, or is it because being within synapse grants fearless? because terrify removes fearless until the end of the turn. so should prevent the auto-regroup. if its synapse though then im not sure quite how that would work.

 Stearic wrote:

 Imperator_Class wrote:



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Ah yes, he goes into ongoing ONLY if he is swooping. Gliding he bites the big one.

As for synapse and automatically regrouping. does synapse let them regroup on its own, or is it because being within synapse grants fearless? because terrify removes fearless until the end of the turn. so should prevent the auto-regroup. if its synapse though then im not sure quite how that would work.

That's the thing. Synapse grants fearless AND that auto-regroup I'm talking about

 Imperator_Class wrote:
Ok, had a perusal of the rules. FMCs are not fearless by default, and so take the test as normal.

Seems the OP was specifically talking about Terrify, though, I assume through use of a Hemlock Wraithfighter. Part of that psychic ability is that is strips Fearless and any other thing that grants immunity to fear is ignored. You HAVE to take a morale check if hit with Terrify, end of story.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Imperator_Class wrote:
Ok, had a perusal of the rules. FMCs are not fearless by default, and so take the test as normal.

Seems the OP was specifically talking about Terrify, though, I assume through use of a Hemlock Wraithfighter. Part of that psychic ability is that is strips Fearless and any other thing that grants immunity to fear is ignored. You HAVE to take a morale check if hit with Terrify, end of story.

Noone claimed you didn't have to take the check, but the fall back move isn't clear. Also terrify doesn't "strip any other thing that grants immunity to fear". The unit loses Fearless and treats everything as causing fear, Nothing else.ATSKNF ignores fear, and still works on a Terrified unit.

You're right, Bob. That's just how I had it remembered in my head.

90% of my posts are while I'm at work in between what I do. I should probably start bringing my mini-BRB with me so I'm not just relying on my very scattered memory on how things work.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Whichever direction he will be forced to face after pivoting up to 90 degrees towards their own table.

Can you explain this a bit more? Falling back is always directly toward the appropriate table edge. This would be NOT following those directions. Why is this acceptable?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Whichever direction he will be forced to face after pivoting up to 90 degrees towards their own table.

Can you explain this a bit more? Falling back is always directly toward the appropriate table edge. This would be NOT following those directions. Why is this acceptable?

It is a case of must vs cannot. The unit must run towards the appropriate board edge. A swooping FMC cannot pivot more than 90 degrees (and must move forward).

Swooping falling back and pivot is likely overlooked as for some reason brb doesn't recognise a case where swooping FMC's can fall back at all ( listed as NA in reference ). HIWPI is pivot 90 and move full there, or just pivot it whatever to get it in the correct direction. Probably the latter, towards the owners edge. Though a case could be made for no pivot at all. The rules really do not line up well for swooping MC and falling back.

As for synapse, imo the unit would fall back due to terrify then auto regroup next movement. After failing a moral check you immediately fall back, and regrouping isn't an option until the next movement. (pages 29 to 31). It is less clear, though I believe to be' falling back' you have already made one move.

I would think the FMC still falls back in a straight line toward their board edge. I am not 100% sure on the wording so you guys who have the book on you tell me if I'm wrong or not, but the case for pivoting 90 degrees is entirely something dealing with the movement phase, correct? Falling back is not the movement phase, and so I think you would use the rules for jump units in it's entirety.

 SRSFACE wrote:
but the case for pivoting 90 degrees is entirely something dealing with the movement phase, correct?

Nope, it's whenever it moves.

There used to be an FAQ on nids falling back and it said they automatically regrouped once in synapse range but I actually don't see any nid FAQ up right now so who knows? Don't have my codex on me right now either though.
I know they are not exactly the same but you could treat it like GTG as both are states disallowed to a fearless model.

Q: If a unit has the Fearless special rule applied to them while they
have Gone to Ground, are the effects of Go to Ground immediately
cancelled (for example, if this were to occur at the start of their turn
could those units then move, shoot etc. as normal in the appropriate
phases?) (p35)
A: Yes.

 Nem wrote:
Swooping falling back and pivot is likely overlooked as for some reason brb doesn't recognise a case where swooping FMC's can fall back at all ( listed as NA in reference ). .

Or you can take that as a FMC that is swooping cannot Fall Back.

Thus you can only handle it one of 2 ways:

A.He is immune to falling back while swooping.

B.If he is forced to fall back he immediately enters glide mode and falls back 3d6 then regroups.

Sidebar about FMCs who are falling back and hit the board edge. They do not enter Ongoing Reserves. They are destroyed.

BRB p.30
If any model from a unit that is falling back moves into contact with a table edge, the entire unit is removed from the game as casualties, as it scatters and flees the battle.

p.49
It's quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping. Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters Ongoing Reserves (see page 125)

Unless I'm missing something, it must come into contact with a board edge before it can leave it, if moving normally. If falling back, the moment it comes into contact with the board edge, it dies. Have I missed something?

Eihnlazer wrote:


Thus you can only handle it one of 2 ways:

A.He is immune to falling back while swooping.

B.If he is forced to fall back he immediately enters glide mode and falls back 3d6 then regroups.

Why would it need to or be forced to glide while falling back?

Since they are described as 'moving like' a jump unit they follow the jump unit rules.

They use their jump packs and move 3d6

 Jimsolo wrote:
Sidebar about FMCs who are falling back and hit the board edge. They do not enter Ongoing Reserves. They are destroyed.

BRB p.30
If any model from a unit that is falling back moves into contact with a table edge, the entire unit is removed from the game as casualties, as it scatters and flees the battle.

p.49
It's quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping. Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace- it then enters Ongoing Reserves (see page 125)

Unless I'm missing something, it must come into contact with a board edge before it can leave it, if moving normally. If falling back, the moment it comes into contact with the board edge, it dies. Have I missed something?

The underlined part causes the question. How does a FMC leave the board edge if it does not do so deliberately? What can force the FMC to leave against its will? Whatever caused it to leave against its will causes it to go into Ongoing Reserves. Which conflicts with the fall back rule. So which is more specific?

Falling back is part of the general rules for all units, Swooping is a more specific rule for only Flying Monstrous Creatures.

If a Swooping FMC is forced to fall back, what happens if it rolls less than 12" distance?

The movement restrictions say it must move at least 12" and can move up to 24" while Swooping.

If an Infantry unit is force to fall back what happens if it rolls more than 6 " distance?

Looking at the rule, I would say that a FMC whether through design (unlikely) or oversight (more than likely) does not fall back when swooping.

Fragile wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Sidebar about FMCs who are falling back and hit the board edge. They do not enter Ongoing Reserves. They are destroyed.

BRB p.30
If any model from a unit that is falling back moves into contact with a table edge, the entire unit is removed from the game as casualties, as it scatters and flees the battle.

p.49
It's quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping. Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace- it then enters Ongoing Reserves (see page 125)

Unless I'm missing something, it must come into contact with a board edge before it can leave it, if moving normally. If falling back, the moment it comes into contact with the board edge, it dies. Have I missed something?

The underlined part causes the question. How does a FMC leave the board edge if it does not do so deliberately? What can force the FMC to leave against its will? Whatever caused it to leave against its will causes it to go into Ongoing Reserves. Which conflicts with the fall back rule. So which is more specific?

Look at the first rule again, though.

In order to enter ongoing reserves, it must first move off the table. It can't move off the table until it moves beyond the board edge, which it is destroyed immediately upon reaching. It can't possibly get off the board, because it can't get past the board edge.

Honestly, even if you simultaneously get destroyed and go into reserve - you're still destroyed.

Taking into consideration the rules for FMC swooping say it continues in the direction it is facing after movement, from then on during the turn is just an example of how the rules fails to cater for a Swooping FMC and falling back directly, in the case of the exceptions to ‘moving like jump’ contains items where the FMC cannot change direction to be able to comply with the fall back move.

If in a game we did play it as falling back, If someone questioned the fact the unit isn't destroyed I'd ask them to look up the fall back distance for a Swooping FMC, which is N/A.

Terrify does not remove anything. It states that the unit does not "benefit" from Fearless. As has been pointed out, Synapse has a separate rule that allows any unit with at least one model in Synapse range to automatically regroup if it is range at the start of its move. Therefore, in regards to Fall Back, Terrify has no effect on units in Synapse range. If they fail the test, they auto-regroup before they even move due to the Synapse special rule.

FMC's move as Jump Monstrous Creatures. They Fall Back 3d6" directly towards their table edge. The rules for FMC say that it can pivot 90 degrees and thereafter must move in a straight line. It is a direct contradiction. The resolution is most reasonably in favor of the Fall Back taking precedence since the Fall Back rule states "instead of moving normally". Contact with the table edge occurs before moving off the table. Destroyed units in Reserve are still Destroyed, therefore FMC Falling back are destroyed when they hit the table edge.

Angelic wrote:
Terrify does not remove anything. It states that the unit does not "benefit" from Fearless. As has been pointed out, Synapse has a separate rule that allows any unit with at least one model in Synapse range to automatically regroup if it is range at the start of its move. Therefore, in regards to Fall Back, Terrify has no effect on units in Synapse range. If they fail the test, they auto-regroup before they even move due to the Synapse special rule.

Terrify will cause units to fall back if they fail their morale test. Synapse grants Fearless, which they would not benefit from

FMC's move as Jump Monstrous Creatures. They Fall Back 3d6" directly towards their table edge. The rules for FMC say that it can pivot 90 degrees and thereafter must move in a straight line. It is a direct contradiction. The resolution is most reasonably in favor of the Fall Back taking precedence since the Fall Back rule states "instead of moving normally". Contact with the table edge occurs before moving off the table. Destroyed units in Reserve are still Destroyed, therefore FMC Falling back are destroyed when they hit the table edge.

Gliding FMCs would fall back 3d6, Swooping would not

Synapse does three things:
Negate IB.
Grant Fearless.
Cause units to automatically regroup.

So, if you cast Terrify on a hive tyrant, it would fall back and then auto-regroup.

Whats the exact wording of the synapse rule? From what I am hearing it sounds like if the moral test is failed the unit still falls back. If the unit was in range of a synapse creature before its fall back move it automatically regroups after its fall back move, not unlike how ATSKNF automatically regroups.


Oh, and on meeting the table edge while falling back and swooping. They unit is destroyed. The swooping rules do say the unit goes into ongoing reserves if it leaves the board regardless of that movement being deliberate or not, but falling back is not the only kind of forced movement. Unlike other kinds of forced movement falling back has a specific thing that causes the model to die if it meets the board edge and swooping does not make an exception to that specific thing.

Relevant portion of Synapse: "If a unit from Codex: Tyranids is falling back and at least one of the unit's models is within a friendly Synapse Creature's synapse range before the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups."

Angelic wrote:
Relevant portion of Synapse: "If a unit from Codex: Tyranids is falling back and at least one of the unit's models is with a friendly Synapse Creature's synapse range before the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups."

Which applies in the movement Phase, it has to fall back first, before it can regroup. And order of event thing.

barnowl wrote:

Angelic wrote:
Relevant portion of Synapse: "If a unit from Codex: Tyranids is falling back and at least one of the unit's models is with a friendly Synapse Creature's synapse range before the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups."

Which applies in the movement Phase, it has to fall back first, before it can regroup. And order of event thing.

Falling Back is a status. A model is Falling Back as soon as it fails the Morale check, whether it makes the Fall Back move or not, in fact, Synapse is prior to movement. All that is required for Synapse is that the model is Falling Back. And Regroup does not just apply in the Movement Phase, i.e. assaulting a unit that is already falling back.

If the Model is terrified within synapse range it would not fall back as synapse states it regroups before falling back so this would happen:

1- Terrified
2- Check to see if in synapse range
3- Before the unit moves it automatically regroups, if in synapse it regroups before moving.
4- If not in synapse range it falls back x distance
5- IF x distance takes it into synapse range it regroups.
6- IF x distance does not take it into synapse range it is falling back at the start of the next turn.

So you did terrify the unit, but before the unit moves it automatically regroups. Therefore it has been terrified and successfully completed the RAW part of synapse.

You don't have permission to regroup the turn you are terrified. You can only automatically regroup when you can take the regroup test. That happens before the unit moves in its own movement phases. So what the synapse rule says is when the unit would take a regroup test, if at least one model is within the synapse range of a friendly model they will automatically pass this regroup test. Since the unit will was terrified in the psyker's movement phase it will not be afforded any regroup test the turn it is terrified.

Also, if a unit fails a moral check in its own movement phase it cannot regroup until a subsequent movement phase. It would have make at least one fall back move and if that move takes it outside of all synapse rages it will not automatically pass its regroup test in it's next movement phase unless something changes the position of the synapse models.

 DJGietzen wrote:
You don't have permission to regroup the turn you are terrified. You can only automatically regroup when you can take the regroup test. That happens before the unit moves in its own movement phases. So what the synapse rule says is when the unit would take a regroup test, if at least one model is within the synapse range of a friendly model they will automatically pass this regroup test. Since the unit will was terrified in the psyker's movement phase it will not be afforded any regroup test the turn it is terrified.

Also, if a unit fails a moral check in its own movement phase it cannot regroup until a subsequent movement phase. It would have make at least one fall back move and if that move takes it outside of all synapse rages it will not automatically pass its regroup test in it's next movement phase unless something changes the position of the synapse models.

I stated the applicable rule for Synapse, which mentions absolutely nothing about needing a test. What rules can you cite that support anything else you said?

Angelic wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
You don't have permission to regroup the turn you are terrified. You can only automatically regroup when you can take the regroup test. That happens before the unit moves in its own movement phases. So what the synapse rule says is when the unit would take a regroup test, if at least one model is within the synapse range of a friendly model they will automatically pass this regroup test. Since the unit will was terrified in the psyker's movement phase it will not be afforded any regroup test the turn it is terrified.

Also, if a unit fails a moral check in its own movement phase it cannot regroup until a subsequent movement phase. It would have make at least one fall back move and if that move takes it outside of all synapse rages it will not automatically pass its regroup test in it's next movement phase unless something changes the position of the synapse models.

I stated the applicable rule for Synapse, which mentions absolutely nothing about needing a test. What rules can you cite that support anything else you said?

Show permission to regroup at any other time than what the BRB says. Synapse specifically states it regroups before the unit moves. This rule would apply if Fearless were somehow gone, but it only applies in the movement phase. Fearless would let the unit auto pass any other checks that were required at other times, such as assault.

So a fallback move isn't before the unit moves?

Fragile wrote:

Angelic wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
You don't have permission to regroup the turn you are terrified. You can only automatically regroup when you can take the regroup test. That happens before the unit moves in its own movement phases. So what the synapse rule says is when the unit would take a regroup test, if at least one model is within the synapse range of a friendly model they will automatically pass this regroup test. Since the unit will was terrified in the psyker's movement phase it will not be afforded any regroup test the turn it is terrified.

Also, if a unit fails a moral check in its own movement phase it cannot regroup until a subsequent movement phase. It would have make at least one fall back move and if that move takes it outside of all synapse rages it will not automatically pass its regroup test in it's next movement phase unless something changes the position of the synapse models.

I stated the applicable rule for Synapse, which mentions absolutely nothing about needing a test. What rules can you cite that support anything else you said?

Show permission to regroup at any other time than what the BRB says. Synapse specifically states it regroups before the unit moves. This rule would apply if Fearless were somehow gone, but it only applies in the movement phase. Fearless would let the unit auto pass any other checks that were required at other times, such as assault.

Wouldn't that permission be in the Synapse rule, since it says "before the unitmoves..." This appears to be a case of codex trumps rulebook.

It checks if the unit is within the synapse range of a synapse creature before it moves, but the synapse rule doesn't say the unit regroups before it moves, it oly states the unit regroups. We don't have permission to regroup in our opponent's turn.

Yes you do, as the rule for synapse states it regroups before it moves.

Fallback is a move
Synapse states you regroup before moving
If you fail to regroup, and thus move, you bra the synapse rule.

Show permission to break this rule. Page and para.

No.......

If that were true marines would never fallback either since they auto regroup.



You cant seriously think that.



The unit falls back, then before its NEXT move, regroups. Thats how it works. You cannot auto regroup in the same phase you fell back.


Anyway, there is no RAW on how a FMC falls back. The only 2 ways to play it is that they are immune to falling back, or that they drop into glide mode and fall back 3d6 like a Jump Infantry does.

So again, no rules argument?

You regroup before moving. The fall back move is a move. Page and para that states why not.

so your ignoring the fact that marines auto-regroup with AtsKNF but still fall back?

Eihnlazer wrote:
Anyway, there is no RAW on how a FMC falls back.

Yes there is, FMC move like a Jump MCs so would fall back the same way (as falling back is considered movement), the question is whether the pivot restriction of a Swooping FMC remains in place during a fall back move (imo, yes, as it is the more specific rule).


As for Synapse and regrouping, the way I read it is when you would normally roll for regrouping (just before the unit moves) the unit automatically regroups if it is Synapse range.

Eihnlazer wrote:
so your ignoring the fact that marines auto-regroup with AtsKNF but still fall back?

To be fair, Synapse and ATSKNF are different rules with different wording.

Eihnlazer wrote:
so your ignoring the fact that marines auto-regroup with AtsKNF but still fall back?

You should re-read ATSKNF before comparing it to Synapse. Your comparison is flawed.

they are different, but in this situation they are effecting the same thing.

Models with ATSKNF auto regroup all the time, from anything.

Models in Synapse auto regroup as soon as they are in synapse.

I dont see how the stronger rule (ATSKNF) would allow models to make a fall back move (which we KNOW they do) while synapse would somehow make them immune to falling back.


If you fail your ldrship roll and are forced to fall back, you MUST fall back, unless you are immune to such things. Since terrify removes the fearless special rule, the hive tyrant is no longer immune to falling back. Synapse does not stop the fall back move, it mearly lets them regroup instantly as soon as it is done.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Models with ATSKNF auto regroup all the time, from anything.

False. As I said, re-read the rule.

Models in Synapse auto regroup as soon as they are in synapse.

Correct.

I dont see how the stronger rule (ATSKNF) would allow models to make a fall back move (which we KNOW they do) while synapse would somehow make them immune to falling back.

Re-read ATSKNF and then look at when Regroup tests are made. Your understanding of the rules is flawed and therefore your comparison and conclusions is flawed.

Even if im not wording the rule correctly, the main point is still the same.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Even if im not wording the rule correctly, the main point is still the same.

Unfortunatly it really isn't.
ATSKNF only allows them to re-group when you would roll to re-group at the start of the turn. Not at any point, unlike Synapse.

Automatically passing Regrouping tests isn't the same as automatically regrouping , regrouping test only ever happen a your own movement phase or if your falling back unit gets charged.

So forget i ever mentioned ATSKNF.

What i stated about the MC getting terrified still stands.

If you fail your check, you must fall back. Even if you instantly regroup, you still have to make the fall back move since that happens instantly after you fail your test.

And if you're falling back, you get to regroup before you move.
How can something happen before something else that states it happens beforehand?

Edit : typo, wrote if instead of iT

Eihnlazer wrote:
What i stated about the MC getting terrified still stands.

If you fail your check, you must fall back. Even if you instantly regroup, you still have to make the fall back move since that happens instantly after you fail your test.

Citation required.
Is the fallback a move?
Why are you requiring a rule to be broken?

This entire argument comes down to semantics over "move". "Move" is generally referred to movement phase moves, whereas Fall Back moves are specifically "Fall Back moves". Since units regroup in the Movement phase, that is where this "move" would be applied. However, since "move" is such a generic term, those are arguing that it applies when a unit changes location from point A to point B.

Eihnlazer wrote:
So forget i ever mentioned ATSKNF.

What i stated about the MC getting terrified still stands.

If you fail your check, you must fall back. Even if you instantly regroup, you still have to make the fall back move since that happens instantly after you fail your test.

Page and para allowing you to ignore synapse. For the second time of asking

Before you MOVE you regroup. Why are you breaking this rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
This entire argument comes down to semantics over "move". "Move" is generally referred to movement phase moves, whereas Fall Back moves are specifically "Fall Back moves". Since units regroup in the Movement phase, that is where this "move" would be applied. However, since "move" is such a generic term, those are arguing that it applies when a unit changes location from point A to point B.

Move applies to all moves. Fall back moves are a move. If they are not, please explain how they operate. Without referencing the rules for the moves during a movement phase, of course.

When you fail the test you immediately fall back. There is no re-group test until your next turn. You test re-group at the start of your "movement phase" not anytime before you move.

So model fails, and runs 2D6/3D6" depending on it's type toward it's table edge. The following turn it now checks to regroup.

So no matter what if you fail your going to make 1 fall back move before you can even attempt to regroup or auto regroup. Unless of course your fearless.

Honestly shouldn't have to site rules for this. The book is perfectly clear what happens when a unit that is not fearless fails a moral check. It falls back. It's also perfectly clear when a unit tests to regroup. To quote pg 31 "A unit that is falling back must attempt to regroup by taking a regroup test in their movement PHASE just before they move."

Falling back follows all rules for movement. It is not however their MOVEMENT PHASE. So they cannot test to regroup until then.

On topic of the FMC and falling back. If a 90 degree pivot will get it heading straight towards your table edge then you can keep swooping.
Since Glide/Swoop is "optional" and the rules for falling back are not. Can/Can't doesn't apply.

If the model Can't get pointed directly at it's table edge with a 90 degree pivot then it MUST use glide mode in order to meet the fall back requirements.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Move applies to all moves. Fall back moves are a move. If they are not, please explain how they operate. Without referencing the rules for the moves during a movement phase, of course.

And that is the entirety of your argument. If GW wrote clear and perfect rules, then you would be correct. However, with such frequent and glaring mistakes, your point collapses.

In reference to your argument however, pg 30 clearly spells out that you move 2d6 directly towards the table edge.

Wagguy80 wrote:
When you fail the test you immediately fall back. There is no re-group test until your next turn. You test re-group at the start of your "movement phase" not anytime before you move.

Synapse doesn't auto-pass regroup tests. Synapse forces you to regroup before you move.

Honestly shouldn't have to site rules for this. The book is perfectly clear what happens when a unit that is not fearless fails a moral check. It falls back. It's also perfectly clear when a unit tests to regroup. To quote pg 31 "A unit that is falling back must attempt to regroup by taking a regroup test in their movement PHASE just before they move."

Completely irrelevant when you look at the rules for Synapse - you know, the rule being discussed.

If the model Can't get pointed directly at it's table edge with a 90 degree pivot then it MUST use glide mode in order to meet the fall back requirements.

I've declared Swooping when I moved. I must use this movement type until the start of my next turn.
Find permission to change movement types before my next turn. You've asserted it exists. - cite it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Move applies to all moves. Fall back moves are a move. If they are not, please explain how they operate. Without referencing the rules for the moves during a movement phase, of course.

And that is the entirety of your argument. If GW wrote clear and perfect rules, then you would be correct. However, with such frequent and glaring mistakes, your point collapses.

In reference to your argument however, pg 30 clearly spells out that you move 2d6 directly towards the table edge.

Does impassable terrain block this special move that's not a move?

That's where your argument falls apart. Either all moves are moves or anything outside the movement phase needs to discuss impassable terrain and other potential obstacles.

There are 3 times, and 3 times only, that you can select/change a Flight Mode (Swooping / Gliding).
Falling back is not one of them.

rigeld2 wrote:

Wagguy80 wrote:
When you fail the test you immediately fall back. There is no re-group test until your next turn. You test re-group at the start of your "movement phase" not anytime before you move.

Synapse doesn't auto-pass regroup tests. Synapse forces you to regroup before you move.

Honestly shouldn't have to site rules for this. The book is perfectly clear what happens when a unit that is not fearless fails a moral check. It falls back. It's also perfectly clear when a unit tests to regroup. To quote pg 31 "A unit that is falling back must attempt to regroup by taking a regroup test in their movement PHASE just before they move."

Completely irrelevant when you look at the rules for Synapse - you know, the rule being discussed.

If the model Can't get pointed directly at it's table edge with a 90 degree pivot then it MUST use glide mode in order to meet the fall back requirements.

I've declared Swooping when I moved. I must use this movement type until the start of my next turn.
Find permission to change movement types before my next turn. You've asserted it exists. - cite it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Move applies to all moves. Fall back moves are a move. If they are not, please explain how they operate. Without referencing the rules for the moves during a movement phase, of course.

Trapped.

And that is the entirety of your argument. If GW wrote clear and perfect rules, then you would be correct. However, with such frequent and glaring mistakes, your point collapses.

In reference to your argument however, pg 30 clearly spells out that you move 2d6 directly towards the table edge.

Does impassable terrain block this special move that's not a move?

That's where your argument falls apart. Either all moves are moves or anything outside the movement phase needs to discuss impassable terrain and other potential obstacles.

Trapped only applies if movement is blocked.

Models cannot enter, cross or move into or through impassable terrain - they must go around.

Since you're asserting "move" does not always mean "move" then Impassable terrain doesn't block fall back moves. Movement isn't blocked.

Try again, perhaps using quotes correctly?

rigeld2 wrote:
Trapped only applies if movement is blocked.

Models cannot enter, cross or move into or through impassable terrain - they must go around.

Since you're asserting "move" does not always mean "move" then Impassable terrain doesn't block fall back moves. Movement isn't blocked.

Try again, perhaps using quotes correctly?

Move does not always mean any move. Also you should read the Impassable terrain rules. They clearly apply to Fall Back moves as well as Movement Phase moves. "Models cannot enter, cross or move into
or through impassable terrain - they must go around." This pretty clearly covers it.

You can always try to claim RAW that "move" is anything that says move, which Fall Back moves do, but we are just debating semanics at this point.

Pg 49 - SWOOPING - If a Flying Monstrous creature is swooping it moves exactly like jump infantry with the following exceptions...

Blah blah blah exceptions don't matter since it has no special rules about how it behaves when falling back. There is not a unit on the table given various situations where their fall back overrides their normal movement abilities.

Otherwise if it already turned once it can't turn again. Thus it would go 3D6" straight ahead, but it would go at least 12" because it has too.

There is no real rulebook perfect solution to this. The only thing you can do is come up with options which follow the rules as close as possible and then talk it over with your opponent.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Trapped only applies if movement is blocked.

Models cannot enter, cross or move into or through impassable terrain - they must go around.

Since you're asserting "move" does not always mean "move" then Impassable terrain doesn't block fall back moves. Movement isn't blocked.

Try again, perhaps using quotes correctly?

Move does not always mean any move. Also you should read the Impassable terrain rules. They clearly apply to Fall Back moves as well as Movement Phase moves. "Models cannot enter, cross or move into
or through impassable terrain - they must go around." This pretty clearly covers it.

You've asserted that "move" is not always "move". Since a fallback move is not always a move, and the Impassable terrain rules that both you and I quoted forbid you from "cross[ing] or mov[ing] into or through" it, the restriction does not apply to fallback moves.

You can always try to claim RAW that "move" is anything that says move, which Fall Back moves do, but we are just debating semanics at this point.

You're the one saying fallback moves are not moves. You've failed to prove it. Utterly.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Trapped only applies if movement is blocked.

Models cannot enter, cross or move into or through impassable terrain - they must go around.

Since you're asserting "move" does not always mean "move" then Impassable terrain doesn't block fall back moves. Movement isn't blocked.

Try again, perhaps using quotes correctly?

Move does not always mean any move. Also you should read the Impassable terrain rules. They clearly apply to Fall Back moves as well as Movement Phase moves. "Models cannot enter, cross or move into
or through impassable terrain - they must go around." This pretty clearly covers it.

You've asserted that "move" is not always "move". Since a fallback move is not always a move, and the Impassable terrain rules that both you and I quoted forbid you from "cross[ing] or mov[ing] into or through" it, the restriction does not apply to fallback moves.

You can always try to claim RAW that "move" is anything that says move, which Fall Back moves do, but we are just debating semanics at this point.

You're the one saying fallback moves are not moves. You've failed to prove it. Utterly.

The only failure here is that you didnt read the rules before asking for them. Fall Back and Impassable terrain cover the issues that you claim only Movement does. Next question?

So while performing this non move move, does coherency apply?

Fall back move is a move. Synapse covers any move, by virtue of not restricting it

You are restricting the type of move synapse covers. Any rules citation for that?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So while performing this non move move, does coherency apply?

Covered in the rule, read pg 30.

Fall back move is a move. Synapse covers any move, by virtue of not restricting it

You are restricting the type of move synapse covers. Any rules citation for that?

Again I have said that RAW it is a move because the term is Fall Back move. But it is semantics.

PrinceRaven wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Anyway, there is no RAW on how a FMC falls back.

Yes there is, FMC move like a Jump MCs so would fall back the same way (as falling back is considered movement), the question is whether the pivot restriction of a Swooping FMC remains in place during a fall back move (imo, yes, as it is the more specific rule).


As for Synapse and regrouping, the way I read it is when you would normally roll for regrouping (just before the unit moves) the unit automatically regroups if it is Synapse range.

As fallback moves do not specify any necessary facing I see no problem moving the FMC backwards.

Fragile wrote:This entire argument comes down to semantics over "move". "Move" is generally referred to movement phase moves, whereas Fall Back moves are specifically "Fall Back moves". Since units regroup in the Movement phase, that is where this "move" would be applied. However, since "move" is such a generic term, those are arguing that it applies when a unit changes location from point A to point B.

A fallback move is a move no matter how you try to get around it.

Wagguy80 wrote:When you fail the test you immediately fall back. There is no re-group test until your next turn. You test re-group at the start of your "movement phase" not anytime before you move.

..and if the rule said they automatically pass regroup tests you'd be correct. You'd have to wait until they could take the test. That's not what it says though.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Move applies to all moves. Fall back moves are a move. If they are not, please explain how they operate. Without referencing the rules for the moves during a movement phase, of course.

And that is the entirety of your argument. If GW wrote clear and perfect rules, then you would be correct. However, with such frequent and glaring mistakes, your point collapses.

A rule written in error is still a rule and and interpretation cannot be called incorrect simply because GW sometimes makes mistakes. If you are arguing for RAW intentions are not a factor. If you are arguing RAI then show some evidence of this. Please don't state it as a mistake without support simply to cast doubt though, it is unproductive.

Fragile wrote:
Move does not always mean any move.

Actually without further specification, it does.

Wagguy80 wrote:Pg 49 - SWOOPING - If a Flying Monstrous creature is swooping it moves exactly like jump infantry with the following exceptions...

Blah blah blah exceptions don't matter since it has no special rules about how it behaves when falling back. There is not a unit on the table given various situations where their fall back overrides their normal movement abilities.

Otherwise if it already turned once it can't turn again. Thus it would go 3D6" straight ahead, but it would go at least 12" because it has too.

There is no real rulebook perfect solution to this. The only thing you can do is come up with options which follow the rules as close as possible and then talk it over with your opponent.

Marines don't normally move 2d6 inches. It seems to me fallback moves do give there own permissions. You are permitted and required to move the FMC 3d6 inches toward you board edge and I don't see any indication this move takes the models facing into consideration.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Trapped only applies if movement is blocked.

Models cannot enter, cross or move into or through impassable terrain - they must go around.

Since you're asserting "move" does not always mean "move" then Impassable terrain doesn't block fall back moves. Movement isn't blocked.

Try again, perhaps using quotes correctly?

Move does not always mean any move. Also you should read the Impassable terrain rules. They clearly apply to Fall Back moves as well as Movement Phase moves. "Models cannot enter, cross or move into
or through impassable terrain - they must go around." This pretty clearly covers it.

You've asserted that "move" is not always "move". Since a fallback move is not always a move, and the Impassable terrain rules that both you and I quoted forbid you from "cross[ing] or mov[ing] into or through" it, the restriction does not apply to fallback moves.

You can always try to claim RAW that "move" is anything that says move, which Fall Back moves do, but we are just debating semanics at this point.

You're the one saying fallback moves are not moves. You've failed to prove it. Utterly.

The only failure here is that you didnt read the rules before asking for them. Fall Back and Impassable terrain cover the issues that you claim only Movement does. Next question?

No, they don't.
You've said a fallback move isn't a move. This means that impassable terrain does not forbid you falling back through it. This means that impassable terrain does not block your fallback and trapped does not apply.

I read the rules - I even quoted them. Your statements have no basis in fact. Impassable terrain only forbids moving through it. If a fallback is not a move, you can move through it.

The wording for.synapse says move,.not movement phase, begininv of movement phase, or before moving any models during your movement phase.

Prior to the 6th edition codec many rules exist which require you to perform.or may select something happens during a specific part of the games phases, like movement or start of turn.

We do not see that wording here for synapse, simply because the rule for synapse is in regards to anytime the model would move in any phase or part of the game. If it were meant to be restricted to the controlling players movement phase only there would be some kind of language stating that, and there is not.

Additionally we.see that if synapse were meant to just grant fearless it would not have the additional wording that it does. This rai shows.that it is meant thY synapse is meant to be even better than being fearless and want models in synapse range to be truly intractavle, otherwise they would have just left it at granting fearless.

RAW you cannot make a unit in synapse range fallback by terrify

Fragile - so in a discussion about rules, it is a rule? It isnt "semantics" - it is using the term "move", which is well defined within 40k, and claimiung that "fall back moves" are not moves, with no support.

Please mark as HYWPI it in future, and in the other thread remove the scare quotes around "interpretation" - there is no interpretation involved, just direct reading.

I would just say the whole "no I don't fall back I regroup before I fall back" thing is pretty silly.

Units that are not falling back don't NEED to regroup. You're saying you regroup before you fall back when in fact you wouldn't need to regroup because you haven't fallen back yet.

The regroup before they move is referring to the start of the turn, wherein normally you check for regrouping before you move your unit - if you come into synapse range before that happens, you automatically regroup before having to move.

It's pretty clear what they meant.

Otherwise, you're telling me that if I cast terrify and you fail the morale test, the result is the monster just consolidates 3" and that's it? Sorry. Fails the stupidity test.

It's obvious what it means. Ignore the silly synapse broadened interpretation and get back to "how does it fall back" please.

It probably moves 3d6", but I'm more concerned with what direction it faces. If it has to turn and face the board edge, that's pretty crippling as it probably means next turn it's useless as it can't fly much (in fact it would just have to go into gliding mode and consolidate when it regroups).

GW really muddled things up with the idea of "regroup as you fall back". That's a fluff thing. Should just have said automatically passes tests to regroup.

Falling Back is a status, which includes making a fallback move. They are not the same thing.

No, it does not fail the stupidity test, it uses the exact rules as written.

I note you have no rules argument, please mark your post as "HYWPI" as per the forum tenets

Spellbound has it correct though.

You cannot regroup if you have not fallen back.

The exact wording is regroup before you move, but since you cannot regroup until you fall back at least once, how does that break synapse rule?

It's extremely obvious the intent is to let you regroup on your turn before you move.

That is my final thoughts on the matter.

There's really no "falling back is a status" basis for argument. There aren't many "statuses" in the game, that's your construct.

If you haven't fallen back, there's no need to regroup. There is no regrouping before you fall back. You're literally trying to say that if you fail a check due to terrify all it does is give you 3" bonus movement as you "regrouped" but didn't run first. You call it rules as written, I say it doesn't pass the stupid test. As in "huh. By an overly literal twisting of the rules, you might be technically correct. But I'm afraid that's stupid".

Reminds me of the "terminators aren't wearing terminator armor" rules debate of ages past.

 Spellbound wrote:
There's really no "falling back is a status" basis for argument. There aren't many "statuses" in the game, that's your construct.

If you haven't fallen back, there's no need to regroup. There is no regrouping before you fall back. You're literally trying to say that if you fail a check due to terrify all it does is give you 3" bonus movement as you "regrouped" but didn't run first. You call it rules as written, I say it doesn't pass the stupid test. As in "huh. By an overly literal twisting of the rules, you might be technically correct. But I'm afraid that's stupid".

Reminds me of the "terminators aren't wearing terminator armor" rules debate of ages past.

If it's not a status, there is no way to check to see if a unit is falling back in future turns to either continue falling back or to make your regroup.

 Spellbound wrote:
There's really no "falling back is a status" basis for argument.

It may not be called a "status" but it is an accurate term to describe a unit that is "falling back".
Falling back is more than just a move. It has many effects on the unit.
For example, it effects:
How the unit fires,
How the unit is effected by further moral checks,
How the unit responds to being assaulted.

So a fall back "status" is an accurate way to describe it. It's a much easier way of describing the full effects of a Falling Back.

But you are not falling back until you are falling back.

At the VERY least we could say that the two effects (being falling back, by falling back, so that you regroup because you are falling back) are occurring simultaneously, in which case the current player turn's player decides the order - so I would naturally say that you resolve the falling back before your synapse takes effect and makes you regroup.

Regardless I would still say you don't regroup until the start of your turn - synapse doesn't really change that.

Doesn't the morale rules tell you you're immediatly Falling Back after failing a morale test?
You'd make a Falling back move immediatly after the test, but also regroup immediatly. Synapse precising it happens before the move, wouldn't it fall in the basic VS advanced category?

 Spellbound wrote:
But you are not falling back until you are falling back.

By that do you mean "they are not falling back until they make a fall back move"?
As noted there are more parts to Falling Back then just the Fall Back Move.

 Spellbound wrote:
But you are not falling back until you are falling back.

You are falling back after you fail the test. And synapse states that if you fail the test and are in synapse range BEFORE you move you regroup.

So what happens is:
Fail the test
Check if you are in synapse
If yes: regroup without moving
If no: do the fallback move

HOWEVER, ive seen people post that they also regroup as soon as they ENTER synapse range. Which is not true.

If a unit from Codex: Tyranids is falling back and at least one of the unit’s models is within a friendly Synapse Creature’s synapse range before the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups.

 Spellbound wrote:
But you are not falling back until you are falling back..

No, as pointed out, falling back has within it a fall back move. You can be falling back without making a fall back move - the usual point you regroup we know that is true, as a trivial example

Again. You are arguing HIWPI, please mark your posts as such

Can we quit discussing Synapse (move that to the other thread) and discuss how the fall back would actually occur?

If there was a hypothetical flying monstrous creature without fearless or any sort of auto-regroup, it is swooping and is caused to fall back, what happens?

It would seem sensible that it falls back 3D6" like a Jump Infantry unit, but importantly, which way does it end up facing?
Does it fall back but still retain its current facing? (Which could entail it strafing or flying in reverse)
Or does it need to attempt to fall back within the rules of a swooping MC, eg it must turn 90* towards its board edge and then move 3D6 forwards?
Does moving <12 on a 3D6 contradict with swooping rules that it must move 12"?


This one applies to the synapse question as well:
If the swooping flying MC regroups, and if it is still considered to be swooping at this stage, may it use this regroup to pivot 90*?

Pg 49, "At the start of its move, a flying monstrous creature must declare if it is swooping or gliding until the start of its next turn."
If a fall back move counts as a 'move', does this mean that every time it falls back it can declare whether it is swooping or gliding? (and thus potentially use an auto-regroup via synapse in the opponents turn to give a full 360* pivot before swooping again in your next turn?)

Trasvi wrote:
If there was a hypothetical flying monstrous creature without fearless or any sort of auto-regroup, it is swooping and is caused to fall back, what happens?

The rules simply don't cover it.

I'd suggest a house rule that's it's forced to glide. Far less messy.

Trasvi wrote:
Can we quit discussing Synapse (move that to the other thread) and discuss how the fall back would actually occur?

If there was a hypothetical flying monstrous creature without fearless or any sort of auto-regroup, it is swooping and is caused to fall back, what happens?

It would seem sensible that it falls back 3D6" like a Jump Infantry unit, but importantly, which way does it end up facing?
Does it fall back but still retain its current facing? (Which could entail it strafing or flying in reverse)
Or does it need to attempt to fall back within the rules of a swooping MC, eg it must turn 90* towards its board edge and then move 3D6 forwards?
Does moving <12 on a 3D6 contradict with swooping rules that it must move 12"?

The Swooping rules are more specific than the fall back rules, so it would pivot 90 degrees towards its board edge and move 3d6 inches.
Falling back less than 12" would not break the rules any more than a jump unit falling back more than 12" or an infantry unit falling back more than 6" does.

This one applies to the synapse question as well:
If the swooping flying MC regroups, and if it is still considered to be swooping at this stage, may it use this regroup to pivot 90*?

The only time a Swooping FMC does not have permission to pivot when moving is when running.

Pg 49, "At the start of its move, a flying monstrous creature must declare if it is swooping or gliding until the start of its next turn."
If a fall back move counts as a 'move', does this mean that every time it falls back it can declare whether it is swooping or gliding? (and thus potentially use an auto-regroup via synapse in the opponents turn to give a full 360* pivot before swooping again in your next turn?)

"...until the start of its next turn" suggests that without specific permission to change the flight mode (e.g. grounding tests) you may not choose to change your flight mode for the entire game turn.

If the Swooping Rules are move specific, the table says that a Swooping FMC cannot fall back.

However the Swooping rules say that they move like a Jump unit, which fall back 3d6".

 PrinceRaven wrote:
However the Swooping rules say that they move like a Jump unit, which fall back 3d6".

While I don't necessarily disagree with you, I find that a bit of a weak point.
The rules for Monstrous Creatures don't say anything in particular about falling back moves, nor do they specifically reference moving like infantry, yet the summary table lists them with a 2D6" fall back move.
One could assume then that if Swooping Flying MC's are able to fall back they would have a 3D6" fall back move on the summary table, considering they they explicitly move like jump infantry, rather than needing to infer this fall back move. Instead they are listed with a n/a, which I would take as a much stronger indication that they don't fall back at all than that you should use the Jump Infantry fall back distance.
If we were supposed to infer the proper fall back distance from the jump infantry type, I would think that some of the other unit types (especially Monstrous Creatures) would also have a n/a fall back distance also.

The tables in the reference section were already erratted at least once to match earlier sections of the book. I don't trust the reference section when it contradicts the main chapters of the book and quoting them does not make for a strong argument in a debate.

It makes just as strong a point as making up 90* turns and X distances.

delete

Fragile wrote:
It makes just as strong a point as making up 90* turns and X distances.

I agree with this.

Even with moving like a Jump MC, the exceptions to that statement then listed make it impossible for a FMC to perform a fall back move, the FMC must continue in the same direction, a fall back move is towards your table edge, a swooping FMC, can not do this.

RAW wise a Swooping FMC is unable to make a fall back move. This is a very roundabout way of declaring that, and I don't like to take such things as gospel, but it is as much justified, if not more so than other options.

 Nem wrote:
the FMC must continue in the same direction

That's the important bit. A fall back move, or indeed any (standard) move doesn't require the model to be facing the direction they move in. You don't have to move forward in a straight line. So simply moving backwards without pivoting is fine.
Problem is the Swooping rules are an exception to this, they must move forward, that's the part of the rule that potential gets broken.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Nem wrote:
the FMC must continue in the same direction

That's the important bit. A fall back move, or indeed any (standard) move doesn't require the model to be facing the direction they move in. You don't have to move forward in a straight line. So simply moving backwards without pivoting is fine.
Problem is the Swooping rules are an exception to this, they must move forward, that's the part of the rule that potential gets broken.

Which makes more sense that a swooping FMC cannot fall back.