The fluff seems to say different things about chaos making people sterile, only one child was ever born on the night lords covenant ship, although that could just be because of poor nutrition and people dying all the time.
Perhaps them being in the warp/eye of terror does something to the ships crew. It could also be that most don't survive long enough to go through a 9 month pregnancy.
Psienesis wrote: That's not Chaos doing it, that's more likely the Night Lords cutting your wing-wang off with a chainsword because it gives them the lulz.
Night Lords don't act like that, especially their wards. The slaves/serfs would just be liable to being stepped on/killed with the swat of a hand without the Night Lord realizing it. What it likely results from is gang life and constant warp travel. The mother of the child may have been pregnant for decades, same with any others. But by the strange affects on time by the Warp, the child may have been stuck in a basic fetal state for numerous years. She may have been conceived on the eve of the Night Lord's mass exodus after the death of Konrad Curze, just that thanks to strange time progression, it took forever for the fetus to develop and be born.
Night Lords thrive on terror-causing warfare tactics. If there's two ways to achieve an objective, and one of them incites nightmares in the populace for decades to come, the Night Lords will go for that option. Every time.
Psienesis wrote: Night Lords thrive on terror-causing warfare tactics. If there's two ways to achieve an objective, and one of them incites nightmares in the populace for decades to come, the Night Lords will go for that option. Every time.
That's not cutting off a man's dick. Night Lord terror tactics involve skinning someone, live, in front of a full audience and using their torture methods to sustain his life through the entire process before then making a nice scarf out of the human pelt while some of his fellows are forced to nail his body to a center of public gathering.
I sometimes suspect that there's a Dark Eldar adviser on every Night Lord ship.
Psienesis wrote: Night Lords thrive on terror-causing warfare tactics. If there's two ways to achieve an objective, and one of them incites nightmares in the populace for decades to come, the Night Lords will go for that option. Every time.
That's not cutting off a man's dick. Night Lord terror tactics involve skinning someone, live, in front of a full audience and using their torture methods to sustain his life through the entire process before then making a nice scarf out of the human pelt while some of his fellows are forced to nail his body to a center of public gathering.
I sometimes suspect that there's a Dark Eldar adviser on every Night Lord ship.
If you'll skin a man alive you probably don't have a problem grabbing him by the dick or chopping it off. Oops I meant and.
Also, remember that the Night Lords ship was pretty badly chewed-up most of the time, it's entirely possible that their "warp core", or whatever, was leaking low-level radiation in high enough quantities to cause sterility.
Medium of Death wrote: Perhaps them being in the warp/eye of terror does something to the ships crew. It could also be that most don't survive long enough to go through a 9 month pregnancy.
My thoughts as well. That ship has been prowling the warp for ten thousand years. The passage of time has surely been *different* for the people in it.
As a sidenote, the description of a human society clinging to a parasitic existance in the bowels of the ship is one of Soul Hunter's highs. Even if ADB never delved too deep into it, I really loved that bit.
Or it could be classic 40k. In the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, There Are Only Men...
Seriously, though, I'd hardly call a Night Lords ship a place conductive to reproduction in the first place. Does anyone care to elaborate on the lore of this vessel, for someone who hasn't read Soul Hunter?
I don't believe Chaos does cause sterility. Onboard the space station in Blood Reaver, the red corsair's slave caste seem to have their own functioning (albeit warped) society, it would just likely cause at least some mutation in children. In WFB there are actually tons of stories where children are born as mutants due to the effects of Chaos so it stands to reason it would be the same in 40k.
Onboard the Covenant of Blood, I belive it is as many people have already stated; The ship is almost constantly having to hide in the warp, they have poor resources and failing equipment. Also if anyone read the rest of the trilogy
Spoiler:
There was another child conceived onboard
The Night Lord's ship wasn't even particularly Chaotic, but being in perpetual darkness can't be good for the health of the crew, it's bound to screw with a human being's hormones.
Psienesis wrote: That's not Chaos doing it, that's more likely the Night Lords cutting your wing-wang off with a chainsword because it gives them the lulz.
The Night Lords do not act like that to their serfs/slaves. They were sterile because of warp travel. Source: Night Lords trilogy by ADB.
I think its very possible extended stays in the warp could cause sterility or probably more accurately very high miscarriage and infant mortality rates. Extended warp travel is said to have all kinds of mental and physical health effects and I think it natural to assume that like most adverse health effects, infants and the unborn are highly susceptible. Many chaos legions have trouble with gene seed for similar reasons. They spend so much time in the warp the gene seed becomes unusable due to mutations and what not.
I think its very possible extended stays in the warp could cause sterility or probably more accurately very high miscarriage and infant mortality rates. Extended warp travel is said to have all kinds of mental and physical health effects and I think it natural to assume that like most adverse health effects, infants and the unborn are highly susceptible. Many chaos legions have trouble with gene seed for similar reasons. They spend so much time in the warp the gene seed becomes unusable due to mutations and what not.
So could people or something close to people be born on demon worlds?
Because GW ignores Chaos perspective a truckton. Then again, same could be said for anything that isn't Imperium. And even then, Marines get a disproportional amount of spotlight.
To be fair Tiamat, Black Library gives a lot of attention to us traitors. Now rules/model wise I would agree with you but not fluff novels. This is especially evident in the HH series, almost everything heavily features chaos, rightly so.
JubbJubbz wrote: To be fair Tiamat, Black Library gives a lot of attention to us traitors. Now rules/model wise I would agree with you but not fluff novels. This is especially evident in the HH series, almost everything heavily features chaos, rightly so.
Only if you are talking about Space Marines, which are described as exceedingly rare.
Descriptions of the mortal followers of Chaos, the Lost and the Damned, are really difficult to find. Marines do not build societies.
But their are plenty of societies, chaos pirates in the maelstrom, blood pact, beastmen on demon worlds, pawns of chaos was exclusively about the mortals following tzentch
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about blowing babies up ? How are you going to do that if you do not have babies ?
I don't mean to cause offense but you strike me as a sick person.
But their are plenty of societies, chaos pirates in the maelstrom, blood pact, beastmen on demon worlds, pawns of chaos was exclusively about the mortals following tzentch
Made by humans, not marines. Neither daemons.
There are few books about chaos humans. Pawns of Chaos was one. Another really good one is Daemon World, by Ben Counter. And the background book about the Sabbat worlds. Instead we have lots of stuff about a random group of marines doing stuff.
It is a pity. Human characters enrich the background a lot.
Hollismason wrote: What are the Mundane parts of life on a Chaos planet?
Doing the dishes, cleaning the house, working to death for your Chaos overlords, not that different from 21st century Earth Apart maybe from chasing the occasional deamon from your basement.
Hollismason wrote: What are the Mundane parts of life on a Chaos planet?
Human stuff.
There are lots of worlds and civilizations with a chaos-worshipping society that have lasted for over 10000 years. The Sabbat Worlds or the worlds described in Daemon World, Pawns of Chaos or Blood Gorgons, to name a few. They built fortifications, waged war and developed enough technology to launch attacks using a space fleet. They still have medics, nurses, schools and engineers, they still loved and had children. They are humans.
If you think about it, Khorne is the "god of wrath". Many stable civilizations openly worshipped a god of wrath, Sparta and Rome being the obvious references. The Chaos Gods are in most senses the polytheistic gods. Nurgle = Nergal, Tzeentch = Thoth.
The Imperial Creed is rather obviously based on the Christian Creed during the Dark Age (angels, priests, warrior monks, the inquisition...). How did the monotheistic creed describe the pagan gods during the Dark Ages? They described them as demons. Incredible evil, focusing on human sacrifices and no moral at all.
In many senses, it is propaganda.
By the way: chaos does not cause sterility. It is the other way around: Nurgle is mostly about fertility.
Hollismason wrote: What are the Mundane parts of life on a Chaos planet?
Human stuff.
There are lots of worlds and civilizations with a chaos-worshipping society that have lasted for over 10000 years. The Sabbat Worlds or the worlds described in Daemon World, Pawns of Chaos or Blood Gorgons, to name a few. They built fortifications, waged war and developed enough technology to launch attacks using a space fleet. They still have medics, nurses, schools and engineers, they still loved and had children. They are humans.
If you think about it, Khorne is the "god of wrath". Many stable civilizations openly worshipped a god of wrath, Sparta and Rome being the obvious references. The Chaos Gods are in most senses the polytheistic gods. Nurgle = Nergal, Tzeentch = Thoth.
The Imperial Creed is rather obviously based on the Christian Creed during the Dark Age (angels, priests, warrior monks, the inquisition...). How did the monotheistic creed describe the pagan gods during the Dark Ages? They described them as demons. Incredible evil, focusing on human sacrifices and no moral at all.
In many senses, it is propaganda.
By the way: chaos does not cause sterility. It is the other way around: Nurgle is mostly about fertility.
So basically, Nurgle is the god of reproduction and sex.
So basically, Nurgle is the god of reproduction and sex.
Aye. A god of life and the joy of reproduction.
Sex sounds slaaneshy, but is more of a Nurgle thing if done to create new life. More sex -> more life -> Nurgle happy.
Almost every one of the Chaos Primarchs' daemon worlds.
Vulcan and Guilliman were sort of exceptions. They cared about humanity. And they ruled over a civilization that was already there. And I still think they did it through humans.
Lorgar only cares about his search of "the truth". He doesn´t even lead his own legion most of the time, let alone the countless followers of his words.
Same goes for Perturabo.
Angron? Curze? Mortarion? Fulgrim? Alphy & bro? Nope.
As far as I know, Horus was a militar leader, he was not really interested in social stuff.
The only chaos primarch that was interested in sociology was Magnus.
Most marines focus on war. They are an elite combat force, incredibly small. Marines can form (really) small skirmish armies, strike forces or pirate raids. I am not sure they would waste their time as political leaders of, say, a world with 5 billion inhabitants. That´s a lot of work.
How can they build a civilization? A civilization is built by teachers, politicians, lawyers, artisans, artists... And not a few. You need lots and lots of them. Also, they are not even humans. They have a different set of emotions, it wouldn´t be a "human society".
Perturabo, Lorgar, Mortarion, Magnus and Fulgrim have all created their own desired societies on their daemon worlds, complete with communities and the like. Alpharius is dead (allegedly), Omegon is not a Daemon Prince, Curze is dead, Horus is dead. I don't really see why you would count those against the tally.
The definition of "society" is, more or less, a group of people living together in an ordered fashion. So, the Daemon Worlds of the people I've mentioned above certainly count as "societies".
So basically, Nurgle is the god of reproduction and sex.
Nurgle is the god of sex for reproductivity's sake (note that his daemons are the only ones capable of reproduction, albeit asexual, and his "wife" is a fertility goddess. Disease is fertility in and of itself too as it involves tons of breeding bacteria) and Slaanesh of sex for pleasure's sake. ....or both would be if GW actually brought sex up here and there, but GW normally tries to avoid sexual issues with a 10 ft pole.
So basically, Nurgle is the god of reproduction and sex.
Nurgle is the god of sex for reproductivity's sake (note that his daemons are the only ones capable of reproduction, albeit asexual, and his "wife" is a fertility goddess. Disease is fertility in and of itself too as it involves tons of breeding bacteria) and Slaanesh of sex for pleasure's sake. ....or both would be if GW actually brought sex up here and there, but GW normally tries to avoid sexual issues with a 10 ft pole.
I'm not really sure that this is accurate. Traditionally, Nurgle is the Lord of Decay, that doesn't really imply a fertility god. Tzeentch is about change and growth, Nurgle is his opposite with decay and despair. I can see where you get the idea that he is creating life via disease, but warp born diseases aren't necessarily grounded in science in Biology. The Destroyer plague has been around for nearly 10,000 years and the imperium is not closer to curing it. This defies natural logic and suggests that the disease is no more "alive" in a biological sense than daemons themselves. Merely that it is a fragment of their parent god's manifestation.
Slaanesh would be the more likely candidate for a fertility god in my opinion. I think most people have the truth of it though, most of what we see of chaos is from a war perspective from their enemies point of view. It is more than likely that the gods have some other place in a functioning society. If they were all geared purely for war then it would be difficult to recruit quite as many followers as they do.
Furyou Miko wrote: Slaanesh is in no way a fertility god. Its primary domains are excess and obsession.
Obsession is a primarily destructive force.
Nurgle, meanwhile, has been described as Fecund on several occasions... although really, his 'wife' should be Ynneath, not Isha.
All of the Chaos Gods stand for destructive forces though, whether it be War, Decay, Scheming or Obsession. I'm just arguing that a society could be convinced that a god dedicated to endulging your desires would be the most likely candidate for fertility. It's fairly safe to assume that increase of libido and multiple partners would create more children. Pustulent buboes and weeping sores don't exactly scream "please have a baby with me." I'm not saying that any of the Chaos gods make for good parental worshippers, just that Slaanesh encourages behaviour which is directly linked to breeding.
"Nurgle is not a morose purveyor of despair and gloom, but a vibrant god of life and laughter." Page 14 C:CD 6th edition, but it has been more or less copy-pasted since Realm of Chaos. His realm is a garden, where new life is constantly created.
Slaanesh is Obsession, which can be related to anything, but I don´t see a direct relation between Slaanesh and fertility. Btw, obsession can be a constructive force too.
BlaxicanX wrote: Perturabo, Lorgar, Mortarion, Magnus and Fulgrim have all created their own desired societies on their daemon worlds, complete with communities and the like. Alpharius is dead (allegedly), Omegon is not a Daemon Prince, Curze is dead, Horus is dead. I don't really see why you would count those against the tally.
The definition of "society" is, more or less, a group of people living together in an ordered fashion. So, the Daemon Worlds of the people I've mentioned above certainly count as "societies".
By this definition, I guess you are right.
I think the word "society" should include more things. Art, culture, science, tradition, religion, all that stuff. Mortarion is not creating a society: the people who manage to survive around him had, perhaps, eventually created a society, but it has been in spite of him. He is a destructive force. The same goes for the rest. I mentioned Curze and Horus because they didn´t show the slightest interest in sociology that we know of during their lives.
The only exception is Magnus, who actually cared about these things when he was alive. It is unclear if he still has an interest in human affairs after his ascension.
da001 wrote: "Nurgle is not a morose purveyor of despair and gloom, but a vibrant god of life and laughter." Page 14 C:CD 6th edition, but it has been more or less copy-pasted since Realm of Chaos. His realm is a garden, where new life is constantly created.
Lexicanum would apparently disagree with that assessment "Nurgle is one of the four major Ruinous Powers. He is the the oldest of the four, most probably because he is the God of Death and Decay and those two have been part of the galaxy since the beginning. His titles include the Plague Father, Fly Lord, Great Corruptor, Plague Lord, Master of Pestilence, Lord of Decay (the translation of his Dark Tongue name, Nurgh-leth) and represents morbidity, disease and physical corruption."
da001 wrote: "Nurgle is not a morose purveyor of despair and gloom, but a vibrant god of life and laughter." Page 14 C:CD 6th edition, but it has been more or less copy-pasted since Realm of Chaos. His realm is a garden, where new life is constantly created.
Lexicanum would apparently disagree with that assessment "Nurgle is one of the four major Ruinous Powers. He is the the oldest of the four, most probably because he is the God of Death and Decay and those two have been part of the galaxy since the beginning. His titles include the Plague Father, Fly Lord, Great Corruptor, Plague Lord, Master of Pestilence, Lord of Decay (the translation of his Dark Tongue name, Nurgh-leth) and represents morbidity, disease and physical corruption."
I was quoting the Codex. And the background books like Liber Chaotica or Realm of Chaos.
Lexicanum is ok for some things, but not always.
I think they got it wrong here... or perhaps they don´t, and different sources claim different things about Nurgle. This happens a lot in 40k.
I think it is more a case of the latter. As far as I can remember Nurgle has always been the God of Decay and Despair. Remember, these are the emotions that feed him, not necessarily that he exhibits. I think that is the whole point, he preys on those who are in total despair, bringing them misery and suffering with disease until they cannot take anymore, he then offers them a way out. A kindly voice asking only for love and he will take away all the pain.
Tzeentch is the opposite, going for those with ambition and self assurance, giving them easy boost of assistance, however his gifts have hidden costs that the bearer must eventually repay when his soul is already the plaything of the gods.
Nurgle is the god of Death and Decay. However, he is an existentialist, not a nihilist.
The Nihilist says: "Everything is going to fail. There's no point doing anything. There's no point living. We may as well give up and die."
The Existentialist then replies: "Everything it going to fail. The future is a foregone conclusion. Therefore, there's no point worrying about it, lets do something fun!"
I think I may be using the wrong word, but existentialist is the one that comes to mind.
Nurgle is the god of life and death. He is the god of cycles. Of waxing and waning. He is thus the god of the cycle of life and death.
Thus he is both the god of death, and the god of life. Again, his daemons are the only ones capable of reproduction, all of his diseases are bacteria (life) based, his garden is constantly producing new life, etc.
The cycle of life and death is unchanging and eternal, thus ties to his whole "stagnancy" schtick, too.
That's also partially why he's called GrandFATHER Nurgle", and why his greater daemons dote on their nurglings and cultists in a fatherly manner. He's the only god that actually acknowledges being a parent.
Nergal's wife wasn't the goddess of healing, either, she was the goddess of death and the dead. Well, until Nergal beat and raped her and claimed her kingdom in addition to his own title as Lord of a Thousand Plagues.
Ishtar to the Babylonians, but an incredibly popular deity in Sumeria, Inanna. Of course, when your religious services center around sexual activities, that isn't surprising.
The Emperor is a parental deity who acknowledges his Sons and Daughters.
Horrors are capable of reproducing by mitosis.
Horror reproduction is more change than reproduction, I think. The initial parent becomes a set of beings that are completely different from the parent. It's more "change into two new beings" than "reproduce a new being". It can only be done once, too (again making it more "change into a new being that happens to be two of" rather than "reproduce a new being") with the new beings unable to reproduce further, unlike Nurglings who, as shown by Khulgath, are canonically capable of growing up into a great unclean one and then producing more nurglings (although it's EXTREMELY rare for a nurgling to live that long and grow that powerful, but still possible). Mitosis doesn't change the original cell or bacteria into a completely different being, unlike horror splitting, and it can be done multiple times (while horror splitting can only be done once. Blue Horrors can't split again)
And when I said "only god that addresses parenthood", I meant Chaos Gods born of emotion, showing that Nurgle is (in part) the emotion of parenthood (and thus, culturing life). Emperor doesn't count because he isn't representative of an emotion (far as we know). The Eldar gods are also not what I was referring to, as I was talking about Chaos Gods. The Eldar have their own equivalents in a way (Isha's basically their Nurgle, really, being a goddess of healing, fertility, and despair considering how often she's crying)
Another thing that makes Nurgle a god of life is that he's also a god of healing, ironically enough. There's a daemon prince in the fluff that was once a doctor and to this day still heals patients (although it's not exactly a very pleasant healing. Nurgle isn't one to give a crap about aesthetics as long as you're alive in the end). And there's a reason why the Dawn of War Nurgle guy is the only healer in the Chaos side. This is also partially why Nurgle's followers are able to survive their diseases and live such a freakishly long time in spite of those diseases.
Daemons don't have biological processes. They don't reproduce. Daemons themselves are simply spun out of the Warp, either by the command of their Patron Power or by the unknowable machinations of the Immaterium itself.
Nurgle's patriarchal attitude is separate from his actual portfolio. The former is just how the god acts, the latter is what he actually controls.
Psienesis wrote: Daemons don't have biological processes. They don't reproduce. Daemons themselves are simply spun out of the Warp, either by the command of their Patron Power or by the unknowable machinations of the Immaterium itself.
Nurgle's patriarchal attitude is separate from his actual portfolio. The former is just how the god acts, the latter is what he actually controls.
The gods are born of emotons and also symbolic of them. Hell, a lot of the times everything they do is supposed to be entirely metaphoric. Thus how nurgle acts is pretty much the same as what he controls, as the entire "act" of a god is symbolic and metaphoric in the first place. Nurgle's patriarchal attitude is NURGLE HIMSELF, because Nurgle himself is an attitude (an attitude is an emotion, after all, and Nurgle is an emotion, as are all the Chaos gods). That's the entire concept of what Chaos is. If Nurgle is constantly patriarchal, then that can only be because he is the emotion (and thus, god) of patriarchism.
That daemons don't biologically reproduce doesn't matter. The fact is, Nurgle's greater daemons symbolically or metaphorically reproduce. And that's what counts. If a great unclean one literally poops out nurglings and has them popping into existence from its pores, that's meant to metaphorically symbolize something, because that's what Chaos, born of the sheer energy of emotion and dreams, IS. And in this case, it symbolizes that Nurgle is the god of fertility and life.
Here's something quoted from the wiki, which I believe is taken from Realms of Chaos, although admittingly I'm not completely sure. Emphasis added by me.
"Even the process of creation is but the precursor to destruction and decay. The bastion of today is tomorrow's ruin, the maiden of the morning is the crone of the night, and the hope of a moment is but the foundation of regret. Though he is the creator of every infection and epidemic to have ever swept the universe, Nurgle is not a morose purveyor of despair and gloom, but a vibrant god of life and laughter. In death, there is life. Upon the decay of the living untold numbers of bacteria, viruses, insects and other carrion-feeders thrive. All life feeds upon other life to exist, and from every plague grows new generations, stronger and more virile than those who came before. Regeneration comes from decay, just as hope springs from despair. The greatest inspiration comes in the darkest moments; in times of crisis mortals are truly tested and driven to excel. "
Honestly, sheer process of elimination should make it obvious that Nurgle's the god of fertility. Chaos is supposed to be created from all emotions of mankind, so who else of the four gods would the emotion of birthing and raising up children go to? (well, I suppose it could go to some minor unnamed god, but considering how birth and parenthood is one of the most standard emotions there is for the sake of a species' survival, I highly doubt the god behind it would be minor). I'm sure that Nurgle is in love with the Eldar goddess of fertility is no coincidence, just like how Khorne being infuriated that Slaanesh was ripping away a portion of his own power (as stated by a GW employee) when Slaanesh tried to take away Khaine isn't. Nurgle's "love" of Isha, a fertility god, is a metaphor of him holding onto his own power that Slaanesh was trying to take.
He's not the god of Patriarchalism, or even of Family. His portfolio continues to be, and has always been, Plague, Pestilence, Disease, Decay and Entropy.
The emotions most closely-associated with his portfolio are grim perseverance, fatalism and dogged persistence. This contrasts him with Tzeentch, who's closest-associated emotion is hope, driving ambition and manic intensity. This is partly why these two gods hate one another.
That daemons don't biologically reproduce doesn't matter. The fact is, Nurgle's greater daemons symbolically or metaphorically reproduce. And that's what counts. If a great unclean one literally poops out nurglings and has them popping into existence from its pores, that's meant to metaphorically symbolize something, because that's what Chaos, born of the sheer energy of emotion and dreams, IS. And in this case, it symbolizes that Nurgle is the god of fertility and life.
I think you're extending the metaphor a bit farther than it supports.
Psienesis wrote: He's not the god of Patriarchalism, or even of Family. His portfolio continues to be, and has always been, Plague, Pestilence, Disease, Decay and Entropy.
If Nurgle, who is literally an emotion manifested, is emotionally patriarchal, then that can only mean it's because he's the god of patriarchism. Otherwise, he would not be able to be patriarchal, because then he'd be exhibiting an emotion which he is clearly not. A "not a god of patriarchsim" god exhibiting a patriarchal emotion would be the equivalent of Khorne being lusty or Tzeentch being sad
Nurgling Infestation - consists of a small group of Nurglings which follows the champion, feasting on the flakes of dead and diseased skin which continuously fall from them. They are also useful in close combat.[1] These Nurglings are born from seeping pustules that grow in the gifted's body.[8]
It's simple logic. We know that the chaos gods are emotions manifest. Therefore, whatever emotions they exhibit are what they ARE. It's in their definition, for crying out loud. Khorne is the god of hate, so he hates. Tzeentch is the god of plots, so he plots. Nurgle is the god of fatherly love, so he fatherly loves. This isn't rocket science.
None of this is remotely the same as fertillity. Being infected with HIV or ebola, or any disease, all produces 'life' in a body but it in one would be described as increasing a person's fertility. And as it's been stated a ton of times, none of the Chaos powers create life, Daemons and daemonic plagues are essences of the gods themselves, not biological life. Nowhere has it ever been stated that Nurgle is a god of fertility or reproduction. He is the god of death and decay. Just look at his followers! Who would want babies with them??
KorPhaeron77 wrote: None of this is remotely the same as fertillity. Being infected with HIV or ebola, or any disease, all produces 'life' in a body but it in one would be described as increasing a person's fertility. And as it's been stated a ton of times, none of the Chaos powers create life, Daemons and daemonic plagues are essences of the gods themselves, not biological life. Nowhere has it ever been stated that Nurgle is a god of fertility or reproduction. He is the god of death and decay. Just look at his followers! Who would want babies with them??
The problem with your statement is you're drawing a distinction between different kinds of life. Grandfather Nurgle loves ALL life, so for him, producing life in a body is fertility, regardless of what life comes out of it. This matter of perspective might explain why he's never been directly referred to as a god of fertility, but from his perspective it's all the same thing. Again, that he is "in love" with Isha is no coincidence. A difference between the two is that Isha actually differentiates between Eldar life and other life, which could partially be explained by how she's an Eldar goddess (as opposed to Nurgle, who's not biased when it comes to life forms). Hence she's directly referred to as a goddess of fertility for the Eldar. In truth, both are about life producing and the emotion of culturing life as a part of their portfolios. Isha (again, perhaps due to being an Eldar goddess instead of all-encompassing) merely distinguishes between life whereas Nurgle does not.
And again, I re-quote because no one seems to have read it the first time I quoted it.
"Even the process of creation is but the precursor to destruction and decay. The bastion of today is tomorrow's ruin, the maiden of the morning is the crone of the night, and the hope of a moment is but the foundation of regret. Though he is the creator of every infection and epidemic to have ever swept the universe, Nurgle is not a morose purveyor of despair and gloom, but a vibrant god of life and laughter. In death, there is life. Upon the decay of the living untold numbers of bacteria, viruses, insects and other carrion-feeders thrive. All life feeds upon other life to exist, and from every plague grows new generations, stronger and more virile than those who came before. Regeneration comes from decay, just as hope springs from despair. The greatest inspiration comes in the darkest moments; in times of crisis mortals are truly tested and driven to excel. "
Here's something quoted from the wiki, which I believe is taken from Realms of Chaos, although admittingly I'm not completely sure. Emphasis added by me.
"Even the process of creation is but the precursor to destruction and decay. The bastion of today is tomorrow's ruin, the maiden of the morning is the crone of the night, and the hope of a moment is but the foundation of regret. Though he is the creator of every infection and epidemic to have ever swept the universe, Nurgle is not a morose purveyor of despair and gloom, but a vibrant god of life and laughter. In death, there is life. Upon the decay of the living untold numbers of bacteria, viruses, insects and other carrion-feeders thrive. All life feeds upon other life to exist, and from every plague grows new generations, stronger and more virile than those who came before. Regeneration comes from decay, just as hope springs from despair. The greatest inspiration comes in the darkest moments; in times of crisis mortals are truly tested and driven to excel. "
Codex: Chaos Daemons page 14. Some sentences were also in Realm of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned. Page 12. Most stuff about chaos is copy-pasted over and over.
More from RoC: "What is the response of living men to the undeniable and inevitable futility of life? Is it to lie down and accept death and the coming to naught of their every endeavour? No it is not! Faced with the inevitability of death what answer can there be but to run through life at a great and unstoppable pace, cramming each day with hope, laughter, noise and bustle. Thus, happiness and human endeavour are sired by a coming to terms with decay and futility. This realization is the key to understanding the Great Lord of Decay (...). On the one hand he is the Lord of Decay, whose body is wracked with disease; on the other he is full of unexpected energy and a desire to organise and enlighten"
That last sentence made it into the last Codex (from 1990... that´s 24 years and counting)
About the Nergal - Nurgle thing:
Nergal was a good of war and pestilence. Not sure if there is any relation except the name and the pestilence thing.
Nurgle is called Nyrgal in Lyber Chaotica. Also Onogal and Nielglen (?).
Furyou Miko wrote: They did. Plus, Enkidu was gay, which is kind of awesome.
Truly it is.
By the way, I would like to recommend a book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_the_King It is a novelization of the Epic of Gilgamesh by a really good Sci-fi writer of the golden age.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: Nowhere has it ever been stated that Nurgle is a god of fertility or reproduction. He is the god of death and decay.
He (it?) has a dual nature: death and decay... but also joy, life and regeneration. Sure it is not exactly described as a good of fertility / reproduction, but the word "life" appears over and over when he is around.
"Faced with the inevitability of death what answer can there be but to run through life at a great and unstoppable pace, cramming each day with hope, laughter, noise and bustle."
To me this implies party. Also, in times of suffering, death and fear, birth rates soar. People want to enjoy life before it ends. The realization of mortality has this effect on human nature, and this emotional reaction is what fuels Nurgle.
Notice how the description uses capitalized words when they speak of him as the Lord of Decay and all that, but then use the lower-case "god of life and laughter"? Because that latter expression is simply an adjective describing Nurgle, not a job title.
Psienesis wrote: Notice how the description uses capitalized words when they speak of him as the Lord of Decay and all that, but then use the lower-case "god of life and laughter"? Because that latter expression is simply an adjective describing Nurgle, not a job title.
"Job title" is an entirely arbitrary thing in the first place. There is no such thing as an "official" job title for the gods, but merely instead what mortals decided to call them. What matters isn't the various titles that others have prescribed to him (although again, one of his titles IS "Grandfather Nurgle", anyways, and another is "Lord of All"), but that Nurgle is the embodiment of the emotion of culturing life (or rather, that's one of the aspects of him) which is made very clear by his description of a god of life and creation (see, I don't have to capitalize it either), as well as the nature and emotion of his daemons, actions, and even landscapes (Garden of Nurgle).
Psienesis wrote: Khorne is the Blood God, the God of Slaughter, Violence and Bloodshed. He's also a pretty angry dude.
He is not the God of Angry Dudes.
Er, yes he is. Not sure where you're getting that he isn't.
Oh, you capitalized it? That's just semantic nonsense. Descriptive wise, he is DEFINATELY "the god of angry dudes".
...that said, Khorne has so many different names throughout the galaxy that I wouldn't be surprised if some culture out there gave him a very similar name to "God of Angry Dudes".
No, no he isn't. Angry Dudes is not what Khorne is a god of. You can be plenty angry and not commit bloodshed. You can be super-pissed and instead seek to change things (thus being Tzeentchian).
Psienesis wrote: No, no he isn't. Angry Dudes is not what Khorne is a god of. You can be plenty angry and not commit bloodshed. You can be super-pissed and instead seek to change things (thus being Tzeentchian).
He gains power from anger without bloodshed too. It's just that at its most extreme conclusion (which is where he gets the MOST power), it leads to bloodshed.
By that token, three out of the four Great Powers lose the bulk of their juice to Tzeentch, as the God of Change, as most everything the followers of the others do involves changing one thing to another thing.
Psienesis wrote: By that token, three out of the four Great Powers lose the bulk of their juice to Tzeentch, as the God of Change, as most everything the followers of the others do involves changing one thing to another thing.
That assumes Chaos is a zero sum game. (and if that was the case, we'd never see the four work together. Yea, in many parts of it they vie for dominance, but there are still quite a few situations where all four can benefit)
Also, all the four chaos gods (and chaos as a whole) can be considered in many ways a singular entity, so they do often bleed into each other and sometimes overlap.This again was explained when both Slaanesh and Khorne laid claim to Khaine. So there's nothing wrong with the logic that the other three feed Tzeentch a bit whenever they cause change (although arbitrarily claiming a BULK of the power goes to Tzeentch is rather assumptive, to say the least). The four (as well as the rest of Chaos) aren't entirely mutually exclusive from each other.
Psienesis wrote: Night Lords thrive on terror-causing warfare tactics. If there's two ways to achieve an objective, and one of them incites nightmares in the populace for decades to come, the Night Lords will go for that option. Every time.
Further if one of them is short, simple and expedite and the other takes decades of careful planning, flawless execution, and the wind to blow their way but will leave the populace with nightmares for generations, the Night Lords will go for that option. Every time.
Marines are no longer human. And they lack the ability to "feel" what is needed to be felt to do that: it would have been too much of a distraction. It has been also hinted that the physical tools needed for that are no longer functional. Keep in mind that the process of turning someone into a Marine starts at age 10 and completely messes the body.
I guess a Slaaneshy marine can do all sorts of things to both men and women, and they can reproduce using technology. But I think that´s all.
Marines are no longer human. And they lack the ability to "feel" what is needed to be felt to do that: it would have been too much of a distraction. It has been also hinted that the physical tools needed for that are no longer functional. Keep in mind that the process of turning someone into a Marine starts at age 10 and completely messes the body.
Are we back on the "space marines got no wang!" Again? This subject comes up again and again and nothing of the sort has been show or hinted at. Only that most SM are celibate for some reason, which is never elaborated upon.
Marines are no longer human. And they lack the ability to "feel" what is needed to be felt to do that: it would have been too much of a distraction. It has been also hinted that the physical tools needed for that are no longer functional. Keep in mind that the process of turning someone into a Marine starts at age 10 and completely messes the body.
Are we back on the "space marines got no wang!" Again? This subject comes up again and again and nothing of the sort has been show or hinted at. Only that most SM are celibate for some reason, which is never elaborated upon.
I am trying to think about specific examples of Marines not having the ability to reproduce… but I am not finding specifics. GW just skips the matter, which I find it is the correct thing to do.
Let´s summarize:
1: The most important thing. There are no instances of Marines (not chaos marines) feeling sexually attracted to men or women. Not a single romance or infatuation in, how many, thousands of novels about them. This part of the human soul is just not there. They do not get in love.
I think this should be enough for us to know that there is something missing in them. Unless you are a very young man or a very odd person, sex and relationships are quite important in your life. Not for marines. This is an oddity that must be explained. Psico-indoctrination and highly invasive surgery are part of their formation, so it seems logical to assume they are no longer able to indulge in such distractions.
2: They begin the process of transformation when they are 10 to 12. When they start, they lack sexuality. Then they go through puberty and still we don´t get a reference of a marine fancying someone. Age is important here.
3: In Ian Watson´s Space Marine, the process is thoroughly described, and the lack of sexuality is made apparent and studied. The amazing energy created by sexuality is redirected to waging war. There are also lots of hints of unhealthy, repressed feelings between the marines (the ‘bromance’ the novel is famous for), as well as a pseudo-sexual addiction to pain. This book was written when the setting was meant to be enjoyed by adults and this is quite obvious.
4: Horus Heresy book one (Horus Rising). Right at the beginning of chapter two. Mersadie Oliton visits Loken for an interview and see him nearly naked. She thinks he is handsome and then she thinks “what a waste”.
In 1987 Rogue Trader there is no reference to Marines´ sexuality. I always get amazed at how little the setting changed until quite recently. The full section could be used for a 5th edition Codex. They are described as “warrior-monks”, and the full process of selection is exactly the same. The same goes for the 1995 Ultramarines Codex.
Furyou Miko wrote: Maybe because sex gets in the way of devotion? That's the normal reason for monks swearing to be celibate.
Does not explain the same behaviour during the Great Crusade / Horus Heresy. They were not monks at that time. They were violent warriors, conquerors that did not have sex. Never. And they never felt attracted to a woman (or a man) in their lives.
So we can discard devotion: they were made that way. The two options I see are: psico-indoctrination (mental) or surgery/chemical treatment (physical).
Apart maybe from chasing the occasional deamon from your basement.
