Marine- Bolt gun, Bolt pistol, Power armor, jet-pack, two grenades.
Chief- pistol, battle-rifle, MKVII armor, two grenades.
No plot-armor.
The terrain is an abandoned town.
Lol, what I find funny is I posted this exact same thread awhile ago on a Halo forum and it was like 226 votes to Chief and like 94 to the marines. Except in that thread it was Lysander and 3 Veteran Imperial fist marines....
Take into consideration some of thetraining involved as well. While the MC may not have a technological edge with equipment, I'd say they're roughly on the same terms with actual physical capabilities. In terms of training and tactics, the advantage overwhelmingly goes to Master Chief. SM are selected from hopefuls in their early teens in most cases and then augmented from there. The Spartan program started with kids who were already the genetic cream of the crop, kidnapped them at the age of 5-6 and started training them from there. Its not going to be a straight fight where the two stand shooting at each other until their armor fails. Its going to be guerrilla and unorthodox tactics. Also the Mk V armor could canonically withstand a near supersonic impact from a mile high fall. Not saying every one made it out fine, but the armor could largely survive the impact, just not the spartan inside. Pretty sure it might survive more than you expect. Of course he could just put a sniper round through a lens at half a mile away, though that wasn't part of the criteria you set out
DragonOfAsh wrote: Take into consideration some of thetraining involved as well. While the MC may not have a technological edge with equipment, I'd say they're roughly on the same terms with actual physical capabilities. In terms of training and tactics, the advantage overwhelmingly goes to Master Chief. SM are selected from hopefuls in their early teens in most cases and then augmented from there. The Spartan program started with kids who were already the genetic cream of the crop, kidnapped them at the age of 5-6 and started training them from there. Its not going to be a straight fight where the two stand shooting at each other until their armor fails. Its going to be guerrilla and unorthodox tactics. Also the Mk V armor could canonically withstand a near supersonic impact from a mile high fall. Not saying every one made it out fine, but the armor could largely survive the impact, just not the spartan inside. Pretty sure it might survive more than you expect. Of course he could just put a sniper round through a lens at half a mile away, though that wasn't part of the criteria you set out
Space Marines are trained from a young age as well. In addition, the implants Space Marines receive make them far more durable than a Spartan even without armor. Their ribcage is bullet proof against the BR55's rounds.
While Spartan armor could withstand such falls it isn't as good as Space Marine power armor at stopping bullets. A stubber could penetrate Spartan armor with not that much effort. A Bolter would easily make short work of the Mk. VI.
While Master Chief would be able to engage a Marine in a guerrila war... nothing he would throw at the marine would hurt him. He would also tire out much sooner than the marine would which would reduce the amount of time Master Chief would have to take town the marine. You also have to account that the marine would probably have a lot of experience even compared to Master Chief so he may or may not anticipate the chief's tactics.
DragonOfAsh wrote: Take into consideration some of thetraining involved as well. While the MC may not have a technological edge with equipment, I'd say they're roughly on the same terms with actual physical capabilities. In terms of training and tactics, the advantage overwhelmingly goes to Master Chief. SM are selected from hopefuls in their early teens in most cases and then augmented from there. The Spartan program started with kids who were already the genetic cream of the crop, kidnapped them at the age of 5-6 and started training them from there. Its not going to be a straight fight where the two stand shooting at each other until their armor fails. Its going to be guerrilla and unorthodox tactics. Also the Mk V armor could canonically withstand a near supersonic impact from a mile high fall. Not saying every one made it out fine, but the armor could largely survive the impact, just not the spartan inside. Pretty sure it might survive more than you expect. Of course he could just put a sniper round through a lens at half a mile away, though that wasn't part of the criteria you set out
Space Marines are trained from a young age as well. In addition, the implants Space Marines receive make them far more durable than a Spartan even without armor. Their ribcage is bullet proof against the BR55's rounds.
While Spartan armor could withstand such falls it isn't as good as Space Marine power armor at stopping bullets. A stubber could penetrate Spartan armor with not that much effort. A Bolter would easily make short work of the Mk. VI.
While Master Chief would be able to engage a Marine in a guerrila war... nothing he would throw at the marine would hurt him. He would also tire out much sooner than the marine would which would reduce the amount of time Master Chief would have to take town the marine. You also have to account that the marine would probably have a lot of experience even compared to Master Chief so he may or may not anticipate the chief's tactics.
Pretty much this. I mean space marines live for what? Hundreds of years? They also have back up organs. Chief would be hardpressed to win against a space marine. He'd have to use a spartan laser, maybe a scorpion tank, and some luck to maybe kill a space marine. Now how about if he was equipped with some of the covenants plasma weapons?
There are two problems with this thread:
One. People are goimg to argue for whichever character they like the most, regardless of which is actually stronger.
Two. There's no set power level or strength marked down for either soldier.
For example: On the tabletop, an Ork Shoota is an unreliable weapon that fires hot slugs of lead at high speeds. Comparable to a high-caliber anti-armor round. It is A. As powerful as a Boltgun except at armor penetration and B. Takes, on average, 6 hits to kill a Space Marine or 2 hits to kill an Ork.
In the books, though, a Space Marine will have Shoota pellets bouncing off of him without causing any significant damage. Lucky shots will slow him down, but not kill him. Meanwhile, his Boltgun will kill an Ork every time it fires, mowing down enemies like butter.
Want Master Chief to win? Use a tabletop marine. Want a Space Marine to win? Use the book marines.
As much as I love Halo, and as much as Master Chief is a pretty cool guy who kills aliens and doesn't afraid of anything (brownie points to whomever gets the reference), I'm sorry to say that a Space Marine definitely would destroy him without much sweat.
Mjolnir armor is relatively fragile on the sci-fi scale in some areas, and ridiculously strong in others. Unfortunately, resistance to weapons fire isn't one of those. It can survive reentry from orbit while in armor lock, but it can't take a direct hit with a Gravity Hammer.
The shields, which are the only real protection it offers, go down to any major direct hits. They just really provide a little protection while the Spartan relocates between cover.
Lastly, the physical enhancements of the Spartan don't compare to Astartes modification. A Spartan has, compared to a Space Marine, minor bone reinforcement, neural enhancement(which requires the armor to function), and slightly better than human regenerative abilities.
A marine has
1) completely upgraded skeleton, including a ribcage that forms a completely enclosed protective shield for vital organs
2) Nearly instantaneous blood clotting(Biofoam has nothing on this)
3) Enhanced night vision, hearing, and sense of smell
4) Multiple redundant organs, including a 3rd lung and 2nd heart. This is huge, because it means wounds that would otherwise kill a marine may do nothing at all.
5) Improved blood cells that increase the oxygen carrying capacity of the blood.
6) Multiple redundant organs that filter out toxins from various sources.
7) Ability to breath in water, or any other liquid with dissolved oxygen.
8) Natural stasis capabilities without requiring outside equipment.
The only possible advantages a Spartan has would be speed and possibly agility(and only while in his undamaged armor)
The majority of the small arms weapons from Halo are barely approaching Bolter levels, most are on par, or sub-par, with Lasguns and Shurikan weaponry. You need to get into heavy weapons till you get things comparable with 40k Plasma technology, with even pistols being able to damage tanks.
The given scenario would likely result in them expending all their ammo before anyone died, and then Chief has only the butt of his pistol. The Marine has his combat knife that every Astartes always carries.
A Spartan is way stronger than a normal human, probably stronger than an Astartes. I don't recall any instances of Space Marines flipping tanks over on their sides or punching through the front of an armoured vehicle without a power fist. In a fist-fight, I think the Chief would win.
Spartans are also really fast, although marines are too. Very difficult to say who is faster.
Marines do seem to be tougher than Spartans though. Spartans have hardened skeletons, but Marines have those plus a whole bunch of special organs to make them harder to kill. The marine is probably psychologically tougher too; more determined, less prone to fear and doubt, more willing to take extreme action.
There's nothing to suggest that Halo rifles are any less powerful than 40k Autoguns except for game mechanics. Probably nowhere near as good as a bolter, but still a respectable weapon.
The MJOLNIR armour is probably better than Imperial carapace, although maybe not quite as good as the Marine's Armour. The shield makes up the difference though.
Skill is difficult to judge too. The Marine probably has more experience, but John-117 might be more 'talented' - he's a truly exceptional individual who would probably have been a great soldier even if he wasn't given the Spartan enhancements.
Overall, I'd say the Marine wins based on overall toughness and having a better gun. Give the Chief access to some decent Covenant gear though and the balance shifts in his favour.
The Master Chief is pretty much my most favorite videogame character of all time, but he would lose. The problem with this, is one character (Master Chief) is written to be believable, a super soldier who is still human. The other (Space Marine) is written to be the most OP super soldier of all time, of which a freakin squad can take a whole planet. Comparing fluff simply doesn't really work. I mean, I write a super soldier that's twice the size of a marine, and has armor that cannot even be scratched by a Bolter... Of course he would win. I guess I just don't understand comparing fiction like this.
A Spartan is way stronger than a normal human, probably stronger than an Astartes. I don't recall any instances of Space Marines flipping tanks over on their sides or punching through the front of an armoured vehicle without a power fist. In a fist-fight, I think the Chief would win.
In the Ultramarine Omnibus, Passinus picks up the back end of what was basically an overloaded semi-truck and gets it out of a hole it was stuck in.
Frankly, the flipping of tanks by Spartans is only a game mechanic so that a flipped vehicle isn't unusable. Plus all of the Halo vehicles except the big tanks are very small and light vehicles a couple burly humans wouldn't have much trouble flipping over. They're built for speed, not durability. Even the Scorpion tank is a horribly designed vehicle. You think 40k vehicles are poorly designed, anyone versed in actual tank design would prefer them over Halo vehicles in a heartbeat.
A Spartan is way stronger than a normal human, probably stronger than an Astartes. I don't recall any instances of Space Marines flipping tanks over on their sides or punching through the front of an armoured vehicle without a power fist. In a fist-fight, I think the Chief would win.
Spartans are also really fast, although marines are too. Very difficult to say who is faster.
Marines do seem to be tougher than Spartans though. Spartans have hardened skeletons, but Marines have those plus a whole bunch of special organs to make them harder to kill. The marine is probably psychologically tougher too; more determined, less prone to fear and doubt, more willing to take extreme action.
There's nothing to suggest that Halo rifles are any less powerful than 40k Autoguns except for game mechanics. Probably nowhere near as good as a bolter, but still a respectable weapon.
The MJOLNIR armour is probably better than Imperial carapace, although maybe not quite as good as the Marine's Armour. The shield makes up the difference though.
Skill is difficult to judge too. The Marine probably has more experience, but John-117 might be more 'talented' - he's a truly exceptional individual who would probably have been a great soldier even if he wasn't given the Spartan enhancements.
Overall, I'd say the Marine wins based on overall toughness and having a better gun. Give the Chief access to some decent Covenant gear though and the balance shifts in his favour.
The thing is that Scorpions and Warthogs are badly armored even compared to modern day tanks. A .50 Caliber sniper rifle can do serious damage to a Scorpion. Try using a .50 cal on a Abrams, see where that gets you. I think a Space Marine would have no issue punching through that.
The reason I think a BR55HB is weaker than a Lasgun is mostly because of what the Lasgun can do. A Lasgun can bore holes into people, blow off limbs and punch holes into concrete. A Battle Rifle is pretty much just a modern day gun with a funny looking body and a ammo counter. Modern day and UNSC infantry small arms can't hold a candle to what Lasguns can do. And Lasguns can't even do much to Marines.
And about Covvie plasma tech....
"Against UNSC infantry, the Type-25 Rifle's lethality is considerably greater than its counterpart, the Type-25 Directed Energy Pistol, due to the faster rate of fire, injuries inflicted to the victim are severe third-degree burns, with the wound being cauterized instantly upon impact".
Does this sound familiar to you? Yeah, that's pretty much what the Lasgun does. The Plasma Rifle, a weapon that can chump MJOLINR armor, is about as good as a Lasgun. Think about that for a moment. Note this is from the wiki so it may not be all that reliable but you get the idea. So, we can infer that Spartan armor is vulnerable to even Lasgun fire. That's why I rate it so low.
The only way to get better is compete against better opponents and there's no contest in which one fights against tougher, stronger, faster opponents. Covenant just don't stand up to the opponents a marine fights. If Master Chief had to square off against a daemon of any kind he would be sorely out classed, or an Eldar aspect warrior, or even a Tau crisis suit he would be destroyed. Marines frequently encounter and defeat opponents such as these giving them a greatly increased pool of knowledge, experience, and tactics to draw from. Plus it's not just the marines body that's increased but also their mental abilities meaning any trick MC could throw a marine would see coming due to his experience. As for MCs speed he doesn't hold a candle to either Eldar race.
Physically he can't compete on that level either. Between redundant organs, fused and reinforced skeletal structure, and all the other abilities marines have (blood clotting, etc) he would be unable to cause enough damage to do anything before a marine took him apart.
Defence wise a marines armour is made of a material he's never even come across before and is much stronger than anything UNSC can make on that size scale. His bullets would bounce harmlessly off. While a Bolter fires small missiles (ever eaten a grenade on legendary?) In rapid succession, or fires proximity detonated thermite grenades, our any number of other options all of which are designed to take out tougher opponents than MC.
In the topic of training. Let's say MC is 100 years old and still in peak condition (I don't know how old he is so I'm being generous) and he started training at 4 that still only gives him 96 years of experience to draw from and if he spent the first 16 of those training that gives him a laughable 80 years of actual combat experience while a standard tactical marine probably spent more than that just in the scout company earning the right to wear power armour. A marines training would be much more intensive brutal and violent to prepare him for the myriad of opponents and enemies he will see in his lifetime. Plus due to his increased physical stamina and regenerative capabilities he can squeeze in more of this type of training.
Why use brother genericus and not Poppa Smurf if we're going for the most iconic Ultramarine and Spartan?
In any case, the weapons used in Halo would be considered obsolete and ergonomically god awful by today's standards, with the assault rifle firing ridiculously tiny bullets (the difference in weight between a fully loaded assault rifle and an empty one is literally just a few grams) that would need a full clip to kill a normal unarmored human, the Rocket Launcher having much less of a boom than an RPG-7, the energy sword being one of the worst sword designs I have ever seen outside of anime, and Chief is seriously threatened by .303 caliber machine guns, machine guns with a range of less than 30 yards. Which means that they have quite literally next to nothing as far as muzzle velocity goes, ergo meaning Chief's armor could be taken apart with ease by Somali Pirates with Ak-47s.
In addition, as bad as 40k's grasp on tactic's is, Halo's is even worse; with the Covenant having vehicle charges thwarted by literal 18th century style infantry charges, rank systems being determined by kills rather than leadership ability, the covenant employing soldiers who immediately forget everything and charge the guy who downed their shielding, not one example of anyone in the entire setting having any idea of how combined arms warfare works, and employing basic weapons that can be easily dodged even if perfectly aimed by simply running a bit to the side because their projectiles are so damned slow.
The Marine crushes Chief and moves on, complaining about having to be met with an undergunned stormtrooper rather than an actual challenge.
Kain wrote: Why use brother genericus and not Poppa Smurf if we're going for the most iconic Ultramarine and Spartan?
In any case, the weapons used in Halo would be considered obsolete and ergonomically god awful by today's standards, with the assault rifle firing ridiculously tiny bullets (the difference in weight between a fully loaded assault rifle and an empty one is literally just a few grams) that would need a full clip to kill a normal unarmored human, the Rocket Launcher having much less of a boom than an RPG-7, the energy sword being one of the worst sword designs I have ever seen outside of anime, and Chief is seriously threatened by .303 caliber machine guns, machine guns with a range of less than 30 yards. Which means that they have quite literally next to nothing as far as muzzle velocity goes, ergo meaning Chief's armor could be taken apart with ease by Somali Pirates with Ak-47s.
In addition, as bad as 40k's grasp on tactic's is, Halo's is even worse; with the Covenant having vehicle charges thwarted by literal 18th century style infantry charges, rank systems being determined by kills rather than leadership ability, the covenant employing soldiers who immediately forget everything and charge the guy who downed their shielding, not one example of anyone in the entire setting having any idea of how combined arms warfare works, and employing basic weapons that can be easily dodged even if perfectly aimed by simply running a bit to the side because their projectiles are so damned slow.
The Marine crushes Chief and moves on, complaining about having to be met with an undergunned stormtrooper rather than an actual challenge.
+1
It's been a while since I saw the Halo setting eviscerated this thoroughly. What even funnier is that it expects one to take the setting seriously.
I would put the MC's stats as considerably above human, more along the lines of
Ws 4 Bs 5 S 4 T 3 W 1 I 5 A 2 Ld 10 Sv 4+/5++
It's those weapons that let the Chief down, if he had better options he would be much more of a threat. For example if he had an Energy Sword (Let's just assume this counts as a power sword, for arguments sake) and a plasma rifle (not as strong as 40k plasma, about S 4 Ap 4 Assault 2 i'd wager) then it would be a closer fight. Especially in an abandoned city, Ultramarines aren't exactly known to blend in or be stealthy while the master chief is considerably more agile.
Ahh Screw it, someone has already done this work for me. Watch the first 4 minutes of this and it will tell you all you need to know about him, then you can decide who you think wins.
Marine vs Spartan? Marine, hands down. Faster, stronger, tougher. More experience. Better weapons, better armour.
Marine Vs Chief, though? Sierra-117. He's one of those guys, like Han Solo or James Bond, who just wins. No matter how impossible, how outclassed, he's always got the tool, trick or just sheer luck to get out alive and win the fight.
Assuming the context of a wider battle, with casualties on both sides, it's also reasonable to expect Chief to find a better weapon from a dead guy, and while 40k tech is a little wacky, a plasma or meltagun is still a 'point and click' weapon. Once he's found a weapon, it's a heck of a lot more even.
Paradigm wrote: Marine vs Spartan? Marine, hands down. Faster, stronger, tougher. More experience. Better weapons, better armour.
Marine Vs Chief, though? Sierra-117. He's one of those guys, like Han Solo or James Bond, who just wins. No matter how impossible, how outclassed, he's always got the tool, trick or just sheer luck to get out alive and win the fight.
Assuming the context of a wider battle, with casualties on both sides, it's also reasonable to expect Chief to find a better weapon from a dead guy, and while 40k tech is a little wacky, a plasma or meltagun is still a 'point and click' weapon. Once he's found a weapon, it's a heck of a lot more even.
Ah, but then the question is, who has the thickest plot armor?
Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, etc. Are fairly consistent in what the technology is able to do. Especially since (for the most part) there is a set hierarchy on what trumps what. For example, in the Star Wars movie, Ob-Wan Kenobi says "These are not the Droids you are looking for." If someone wrote a novelization, where Obi-Wan says "These Droids ain't the ones you're looking for" then when we go to analyze, the movie quote is correct.
With 40K, you have lasguns burning holes through human flesh and at the same time bouncing off of paper (exaggeration, I know, but just an example).
Since 40K tech bounces all over and there is no set hierarchy, it is impossible to determine the strengths and weaknesses of 40K tech.
poppa G wrote: Lol, what I find funny is I posted this exact same thread awhile ago on a Halo forum and it was like 226 votes to Chief and like 94 to the marines. Except in that thread it was Lysander and 3 Veteran Imperial fist marines....
Because that was on a halo forum. Makes more sense the marine would win, but this is a 40k forum.
Again canonically the Haloverse is being sold short. The only things lacking in terms of augmentation are the redundant organs and the ability to breathe underwater, everthing else was effectively done to the spartans as well, enhanced night vision etc. Giving him S3 is a farce. In the books, they pre-augmentation could lift nearly double of any other normal unsc marine. The augmentation doubled that, and the Mjolnir armor then tripled strength (a total of 12x). Another thing to consider is there's no gunpowder in the weapons of Halo, they all fire using the same effective principles as a railgun. While I won't argue that it doesn't penetrate as well as a bolter, its probably near the level of some of the weaker Tau weaponry. Also I don't see the Marine in effectively daily guerrilla action against an overwhelming number who also has vastly superior air superiority. If you just took stats at face value, MC would be hard pressed to square off against an elite which is close to his own level of strength and actually a little tougher. As for grav hammers, I'd like to see your ultramarine survive a direct hit from a thunderhammer and walk away. And spetsnaz would be chewed alive considering he's had every minute of training they would have and then years more, and a suit of armor that would be impervious to small-arms fire of his own century that aren't using ap rounds. Also trying to pass off faulty ai as 'tactics' is a bit far-fetched. I'll be the first person to admit that the MC has plot armor up the wazoo. After all his 'specialty' amongst the spartans wasn't being the best sniper or the fastest or strongest. It's being the luckiest.
DragonOfAsh wrote: Again canonically the Haloverse is being sold short. The only things lacking in terms of augmentation are the redundant organs and the ability to breathe underwater, everthing else was effectively done to the spartans as well, enhanced night vision etc. Giving him S3 is a farce. In the books, they pre-augmentation could lift nearly double of any other normal unsc marine. The augmentation doubled that, and the Mjolnir armor then tripled strength (a total of 12x). Another thing to consider is there's no gunpowder in the weapons of Halo, they all fire using the same effective principles as a railgun. While I won't argue that it doesn't penetrate as well as a bolter, its probably near the level of some of the weaker Tau weaponry. Also I don't see the Marine in effectively daily guerrilla action against an overwhelming number who also has vastly superior air superiority. If you just took stats at face value, MC would be hard pressed to square off against an elite which is close to his own level of strength and actually a little tougher. As for grav hammers, I'd like to see your ultramarine survive a direct hit from a thunderhammer and walk away. And spetsnaz would be chewed alive considering he's had every minute of training they would have and then years more, and a suit of armor that would be impervious to small-arms fire of his own century that aren't using ap rounds. Also trying to pass off faulty ai as 'tactics' is a bit far-fetched. I'll be the first person to admit that the MC has plot armor up the wazoo. After all his 'specialty' amongst the spartans wasn't being the best sniper or the fastest or strongest. It's being the luckiest.
Firstly, learn to paragraph your posts properly. Posting this in a big damn block makes you look illiterate and inconveniences me when I have to read it.
Secondly, Bull crap.
All of this is bull crap.
All the ground weaponary of the UNSC save for the Spartan laser and a few haphazardly applied coilguns is something you'd see in vietnam or before.
Coilguns are rare technology for UNSC ground troops and looking at the discarded cartridges of weapons clearly shows regular old chemically propelled bullets. The Assault rifle even uses 7.62mm NATO rounds except for whatever reason they're now made out of aerogel.
The canonical range of the .303 caliber "HMG" in Halo is 30 yards as per the book, which means that past a mere ninety feet the gun does not have the energy nor the accuracy to remain effective, so this means that Halo's firearm technology has actually backslid to blackpowder munitions levels. Actually worse than that because there were plenty of 18th century fire arms that could hit a target well beyond 30 freaking yards.
Elites are twice as strong as a human of the same mass as per halo cannon and are competetive with Spartans.
A Marine is ten times as strong as a person and the armor multiplies their strength by ten fold. So being generous and assuming an elite is twice the mass of a human, a Marine is as strong as twenty five elites. The strength difference here is greater than the strength difference of a grizzly bear and the skinny nerd always picked last in dodgeball.
The fight would be over in a single punch as the Marine drives his fist through 117's helmet and skull with ease.
And "air superiority"?
Coming from Banshees who move so slowly that the Red Baron's Triplane would be able to gut them en masse?
From planes that you can shoot down with assault rifles?
From an enemy whose vehicle charges are stopped by rifle wielding infantry in infantry squares?
Whose tanks can be shot apart by small arms fire?
The Covenant is not a competent enemy and only succeeds because the UNSC has actually fallen behind modern technology in many areas and is equally criminally incompetent.
Halo's plot literally only works because the collective IQ of the entire Halo setting can be counted with your hands.
poppa G wrote: Marine- Bolt gun, Bolt pistol, Power armor, jet-pack, two grenades.
Chief- pistol, battle-rifle, MKVII armor, two grenades.
No plot-armor.
The terrain is an abandoned town.
uhh jumppack? might as well give him terminator armor to at least give the marine a standing chance...
/sarcasm
Seriously though, if its an Ultramarine my support goes to MC
Happyjew wrote: And this is the problem with 40K vs anything.
Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, etc. Are fairly consistent in what the technology is able to do. Especially since (for the most part) there is a set hierarchy on what trumps what. For example, in the Star Wars movie, Ob-Wan Kenobi says "These are not the Droids you are looking for." If someone wrote a novelization, where Obi-Wan says "These Droids ain't the ones you're looking for" then when we go to analyze, the movie quote is correct.
With 40K, you have lasguns burning holes through human flesh and at the same time bouncing off of paper (exaggeration, I know, but just an example).
Since 40K tech bounces all over and there is no set hierarchy, it is impossible to determine the strengths and weaknesses of 40K tech.
The visual effects from the films don't jive with the novels, and the novels don't match with each other because everyone and his mother is writing a Star Wars EU novel.
Some of the stated outputs of Star Wars capital ship weaponry are ludicrously powerful. By some numbers, a Star Destroyer should be able to basically destroy the entire surface of a planet by itself. But it doesn't so the numbers are obviously wrong.
Happyjew wrote: And this is the problem with 40K vs anything.
Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, etc. Are fairly consistent in what the technology is able to do. Especially since (for the most part) there is a set hierarchy on what trumps what. For example, in the Star Wars movie, Ob-Wan Kenobi says "These are not the Droids you are looking for." If someone wrote a novelization, where Obi-Wan says "These Droids ain't the ones you're looking for" then when we go to analyze, the movie quote is correct.
With 40K, you have lasguns burning holes through human flesh and at the same time bouncing off of paper (exaggeration, I know, but just an example).
Since 40K tech bounces all over and there is no set hierarchy, it is impossible to determine the strengths and weaknesses of 40K tech.
Star Wars and Star Trek consistent?
Star Wars has a strict Canon policy, which writers must conform to. For example, if it is established that a light Turbolaser on an ISD has an energy level of 750, 000 TJ (179 Megatons) then the books cannot have them be more powerful than that. Star Trek books are inconsistent, however, they are generally not canon until added to the show.
Furthermore I did not say consistent, I said fairly consistent. There are obviously some inconsistencies within the individual universes, however, nowhere near as bad as WH40K.
I forgot the name of the site that does it, but there is a site that regularly put match-ups of stuff, using the fluff of different things using emperical numbers of power levels, just how hard each gun hits, how much energy can shield block, etc.
The conclusion was, that not only does MC has no chance, he will likely lose against a NAKED marine.
To put things into perspective, the farsight enclaves alone can take down the entire halo universe with virtually no losses, the power scales are just nothing alike-there is just nothing IN the halo universe that can actually damage them when it comes to weapons, and no armor that can survive a shot.
Spacecraft-grade weapons of halo are heavy infantry grade in 40k when in comes to energy output, and power armor can take more of a beating then some spacecraft.
The glorious "spartan" armor with its fancy shields? it will block a single bolter round, at best, while a scorpion tank is unlikely to penetrate space marine power armor.
Heck, the HALO universe is such a lousy example of high-tech power scale, that many things there are beaten by real life modern tech, its just a joke when you compare to 40k when imperial guardsman have squad-level weapons that require a small nuclear power plant levels of energy to power, and these are considered LOUSY guns.
The stats posted earlier by someone else are crap.
Master Chief? Ballistic skill 5? He is as good of a shot as veterans of centuries of constant warfare? No. He is BS 4 at the most.
And Covvie plasma tech is not S4 AP4. Consider what S4 is in 40k. Gauss flayers, weapons that strip the atoms from your body, are S4. Bolters, weapons that fire mass reactive explosive rockets, are S4. The Plasma rifle is a short range Lasgun at best.
Master Chief does not have carapace equivalent armor. His armor cant stop stubber rounds.
BoomWolf wrote: I forgot the name of the site that does it, but there is a site that regularly put match-ups of stuff, using the fluff of different things using emperical numbers of power levels, just how hard each gun hits, how much energy can shield block, etc.
Probably thinking about spacebattles.com. However, I would not rely on that site.
Spacecraft-grade weapons of halo are heavy infantry grade in 40k when in comes to energy output, and power armor can take more of a beating then some spacecraft.
I didn't realize that 40K armour could withstand 243 terajoules of energy (58.16 kilotons) that MACs put out (velocity(30,000 m/s) and square it (900,000,000) then multiply that by the projectile weight (540,784 kg) and then divide that number by 2).
They're incomparable because they're on two entirely different scales.
Just take their adaptions to fatigue. The Spartan has extra-efficient haemoglobin, meaning that they can sustain high levels of activity for longer because they become anaerobic more slowly.
The Marine has extra-efficient haemoglobin, meaning he can sustain high levels of activity for longer. He also has two hearts, meaning he can recover from sustained activity more quickly, and more efficient muscles, meaning that his muscles need less oxygen to retain viability.
The Spartan becomes anaerobic and starts to build up lactic acid. The Marine never become anaerobic, never builds up lactic acid, and can therefore keep going until he collapses from exhaustion.
That's just comparing a single piece of their upgrading!
/Sarcasm
Master Chief wins, hands down. Just look at the Space Marine's stats: A normal human armed with just a knife or the butt of a rifle has a 1/9 chance of killing him if he lands a solid blow. Meanwhile, a Space Marine kills a guardsman half the time he lands a hit. Master Chief is far faster and stronger than any mortal, not to mention his armor can survive pretty much any single hit. At range, a Space Marine will rarely land two hits in rapid succession, and against a T3 opponent has only about a 1/4 chance of getting through MCs shields. Meanwhile, Space Marine armor will consistently fail under fire, and even crappy run-of-the-mill gear like Lasguns will kill a marine in 9 hits.
No contest.
Also, Convent plasma could EASILY be S4. Other things which are S4: Flamethrowers, hot lead being thrown by guns held together with duct tape, or a really angry cultist running at you as fast as he can.
I have said this before and I will likely keep repeating it as long as silly threads like this keep appearing. You just can't compare two different characters from entirely different fictional realities (paradox!). Apart from causing severe disrutions to the space-time-reality continuum, you just can't compare magical fictional thing A to magical fictional thing B, because they are magical and fictional. They are on completely different scales, following completely different rules and are therefore incomparable. (isn't there an English proverb about apples and oranges for this?).
Pre Halo 4, the Ultra Marine takes this in a cake walk.
Post Halo 4, Chief has Dragon Ball Z like powers and is ridiculously stupid to the point they ruined his character. But he takes this in a cake walk.
Edit: Oh wait this an Ultra Marine vs Master Cheif. I don't know what a Cheif is.
Ultramarine, hands down.
You realize the IoM and AdMech has had an extra THIRTY-SIX THOUSAND years to develop better weaponry and armour than the UNSC.
Not going to jump too deep into this convo, because this a 40K forum (meaning huge bias for 40K), and there is an obvious lack of knowledge about the actual Halo universe beyond the games being displayed here.
I will say this, though: the idea that a Spartan couldn't be BS5 is pretty laughable (and stupid) considering that there are BS5 Tau. Tau. Those guys who live for like 40 years and are outright stated in the fluff to have poor eyesight. Lord Commisars are also BS5. Yarrik, Marbo.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not going to jump too deep into this convo, because this a 40K forum (meaning huge bias for 40K), and there is an obvious lack of knowledge about the actual Halo universe beyond the games being displayed here.
I will say this, though: the idea that a Spartan couldn't be BS5 is pretty laughable (and stupid) considering that there are BS5 Tau. Tau. Those guys who live for like, 40 years.
Stay classy, Dakka.
I could believe Linda to be BS5 because she is an excellent shot. But Master Chief? He doesn't seem to be all that much of a crack shot.
Tau get BS5 from highly advanced targeting systems and laser pointers not from experience generally.
BTW, I've read Reach, the Flood and First Strike. They reflect the games pretty well in terms of weapon performance.
No, they don't get it from advanced targeting systems and laser pointers, otherwise ALL Tau units would be BS5, instead of BS3.
Shadowsun, Farsight and Darkstrider are all passively BS5, no markerlights required (Darkstrider doesn't even wear a helmet). As are the Imperial Guard special characters I've edited into my post above.
You're simply incorrect if you think that you need to have "centuries of experience" to have BS5. You don't. BS5 is just a reflection of being an extremely good shot.
That is a fair point. Weird how only Captains and Chapter Masters seem to be really the only ones who get BS5 but I guess it's probably a gameplay and story segregation. But Tau DO get BS5 from laser pointers and advanced targeting systems. Marker lights can be used to give them BS5 and I believe the reason battlesuits get a higher BS is because of their targeting systems.
I still maintain my point that Master Chief doesn't seem to be a crack shot. He is a superior shooter, yes, but not that of BS5.
TheCustomLime wrote: That is a fair point. Weird how only Captains and Chapter Masters seem to be really the only ones who get BS5 but I guess it's probably a gameplay and story segregation. But Tau DO get BS5 from laser pointers and advanced targeting systems. Marker lights can be used to give them BS5 and I believe the reason battlesuits get a higher BS is because of their targeting systems.
I still maintain my point that Master Chief doesn't seem to be a crack shot. He is a superior shooter, yes, but not that of BS5.
I guess it comes down to a weapons pissing contest. I've lost way too many marines to jerk-off guardsmen with plasma guns to have any respect left for them at all.
Martel732 wrote: I guess it comes down to a weapons pissing contest. I've lost way too many marines to jerk-off guardsmen with plasma guns to have any respect left for them at all.
You mean a gun that is good at killing heavy infantry is killing your heavy infantry?!
What a shock!
It's not as if every space marine is armed with a weapon that's good at killing light infantry and can shrug off most basic weapons...oh wait.
Martel732 wrote: I guess it comes down to a weapons pissing contest. I've lost way too many marines to jerk-off guardsmen with plasma guns to have any respect left for them at all.
You mean a gun that is good at killing heavy infantry is killing your heavy infantry?!
What a shock!
It's not as if every space marine is armed with a weapon that's good at killing light infantry and can shrug off most basic weapons...oh wait.
That's not my point. My point is that it's the plasma gun making the guardsman better than the space marine. It is also making all the marine's extra gear useless. Also, shrugging off "most" basic weapons is really only 2/3 of them. Spamming wounds is a very common way of just mowing them down wholesale.
That same tactic works against Spartans much more quickly than it does against Space Marines. Fire saturation is highly, highly effective against anything in Halo that has shields.
Psienesis wrote: That same tactic works against Spartans much more quickly than it does against Space Marines. Fire saturation is highly, highly effective against anything in Halo that has shields.
Maybe. I'm probably also extremely biased after many months of marine massacres as well.
Well yeah, that's the point behind specialist weapons; they make your puny guys better at killing nastier targets. By your logic, terminators are useless because a space marine with a plasma gun can kill them easily.
Also, do you know how many bolter wounds an IG can shrug off? None.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well yeah, that's the point behind specialist weapons; they make your puny guys better at killing nastier targets. By your logic, terminators are useless because a space marine with a plasma gun can kill them easily.
Also, do you know how many bolter wounds an IG can shrug off? None.
Terminators are useless, though. They are more than double the points of a marine, but can only take double the fire, statistically speaking.
So it balances out then, as they also have an invul field (which does grant them some defense against AP2), power fists, better leadership, an extra attack and a better gun.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So it balances out then, as they also have an invul field (which does grant them some defense against AP2), power fists, better leadership, an extra attack and a better gun.
Terminators are hardly useless.
We'll have to agree to disagree, then, because I think terminators are actually worse than useless. Their pricetag is absolutely insane for what little utility they bring.
Psienesis wrote: That same tactic works against Spartans much more quickly than it does against Space Marines. Fire saturation is highly, highly effective against anything in Halo that has shields.
Maybe. I'm probably also extremely biased after many months of marine massacres as well.
Game stats =/= fluff.
A true fluffy marine would, at base stats, be WS5, BS5, T5, W3, I5, A3 and have FnP. He'd cost roughly 35 points with just a bolter, pistol, and grenades.
Terminators would be WS6, BS6, T5, W5, I6, A4, and have 4+ FnP. He'd cost 70 points.
Marines are kind of in a weird spot rulewise. They have to be balanced out, otherwise you'd play with a single Tac squad against a IG army.
I kind of don't care about the fluff. I care about their on-table performance. Which, in general for 6th edition, kinda sucks. They don't play like super soliders at all. They play like super liabilities.
while I do love master chief, and curse my sisters for breaking halo 4 and denying me the chance of a play through on legendary, my vote goes to the marine. the only thing chief has going for him is that he Is way faster, although if he has cortana she could probably point out the armour weak spots, maybe chief could shoot his elbows out?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So it balances out then, as they also have an invul field (which does grant them some defense against AP2), power fists, better leadership, an extra attack and a better gun.
Terminators are hardly useless.
We'll have to agree to disagree, then, because I think terminators are actually worse than useless. Their pricetag is absolutely insane for what little utility they bring.
I concur, I've seen thirty Shoota Boyz practically laugh off my terminators before I could do anything. If any mob gets within range, any termy is toast. I'm embarrassed to admit it but I lost a squad of five to cultist once.
I've seen stealth suits kill Hive Tyrants in close combat and squads of flayed ones massacre tau gun lines. In a game of random chance, anything is possible.
Did you try shooting the shoota boyz before they came within 18" range? Was it over a course of 1 turn?
The Marine wins, because the Marine can bring an allied CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.
Oh dear it is all over now.
A single CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT already is the doom of an entire universe. The Marine could even bring multiple CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORTs. There exists no word that describes the extreme wailing and gnashing of teeth that would ensue were such a thing, as foretold in the prophecies, finally come to pass.
Just to give you all an idea of roughly what the standard astartes bolter fires...
this is a 20MM grenade launcher, which is theoretically identical to what your standard astares fires (.75calibre is roughly 19mm)
except, he is firing it in 2-4 round bursts, and the rounds are rocket propelled, giving it a combat range of about 150m.
If that's what it fires, then marines are getting completely ripped off on the table top. 40K infantry tech in many ways is inferior to what we have RIGHT NOW in the US military. Tanks can't move and shoot well, garbage tank armor, etc.
Martel732 wrote: If that's what it fires, then marines are getting completely ripped off on the table top. 40K infantry tech in many ways is inferior to what we have RIGHT NOW in the US military. Tanks can't move and shoot well, garbage tank armor, etc.
It's just impossible for me to give more credence to what the dopey GW authors write vs what actually happens every time I play. THAT is the reality of marine efficacy, not the fluff. But this has been a problem since 2nd edition.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I've seen stealth suits kill Hive Tyrants in close combat and squads of flayed ones massacre tau gun lines. In a game of random chance, anything is possible.
Did you try shooting the shoota boyz before they came within 18" range? Was it over a course of 1 turn?
I deep struck 10 assault marines with a termy chaplain. Landed too close. First 50-60 shots resulted in 7 wounds and I rolled 3 ones. Next turn I said F-it and moved in, figured I'd charge them. In theory with my reroll hits and reroll wounds I'd get them down fast. Didn't get close enough, lost 2 more, charged and over watch took a few down. By the time I got in close combat I had 2 termies left and the chaplain. I got monkey stomped.
Actually, that's a common occurrence with deep striking. Deep striking without pods or locators is awful. Just awful. Deep striking assault elements is particularly bad because they can't assault till turn 3. The game could be over by then if you went second.
To address the overall issue of terminators, they are awful in general, but particularly awful against boyz.
I was referring to the fact that he landed too close and failed his charge.
Deep Striking is indeed tricky, but at least marines get something to help out.
Besides, of course termies aren't great against light infantry; that is not their intended target. Termies are meant to go after vehicles and other units of heavy infantry. That's why they have fists, lightning claws and hammers.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I was referring to the fact that he landed too close and failed his charge.
Deep Striking is indeed tricky, but at least marines get something to help out.
Besides, of course termies aren't great against light infantry; that is not their intended target. Termies are meant to go after vehicles and other units of heavy infantry. That's why they have fists, lightning claws and hammers.
But they're not even good at that for what they cost. Vehicles can be killed by any jerk off marine with their krak grenades. The key is not getting filled full of shurikens or gunned down by scatterlasers trying to get there. Marines and terminators both fail at this miserably, but terminators are extra bad, since every "1" you roll costs you 40 pts. Unacceptable and easily handled by any good player.
Let's use a common frame of reference in both universes. I suggest frag and plasma grenades. It's hard to directly compare most of the other weapons and rules. But let's imagine that a S3 AP- frag grenade is universal in Halo and 40k. Similarly plasma grenades are S4 AP4.
To wound/kill a Space Marine in power armor with a frag grenade (assuming a direct hit) it wounds 1/3 the time, beats armor 1/3 the time. So statistically out of 9 direct hits from frag grenades, only one would be fatal. So if you throw 4.5 grenades at him, there's only a 50% chance he's dead.
Master Chief, usually can take 2-3 direct hit frag grenades, depending on the difficulty. It's not a great comparison, but I think you could say that Chief is not quite Space Marine caliber.
And fluff-wise, the recruits for Space Marines are selected from only the most fit and motivated, chosen from hundreds of worlds across the imperium. Their selection pool is far wider than the Spartan program, and their genetic enhancements are far more intrusive and powerful than the Spartan programs.
Weapons-wise, just see how long it takes MC to kill an elite with a battle-rifle. I'm inclined to think that a bolter would put them down much faster.
If Master Chief were a 40k model, he'd probably be a T3 Space Marine scout, with a refractor field (5+ invul).
I don't think his armor is even as good as scout armor. MJOLNIR armor is vulnerable to stubber rounds and Covenant Plasma, which is about as strong as a Lasgun is.
This cannot be proven.Since it cannot be proven, it cannot be used as evidence.
Well, does the lasgun use lasers or plasma? If it uses lazers then you're right, it can't be proven. But if they both use plasma then plasma is plasma. Both flaming hot projectiles.
This cannot be proven.Since it cannot be proven, it cannot be used as evidence.
It can't be proven for certain but one can infer that they are of the same strength due to the effects they produce. According the wiki...
"Taking fire from the Type-25 DER can cause severe second, third, and in some cases, fourth-degree burns (a fourth-degree burn completely burns away all flesh, leaving only bone tissue)."
"Against UNSC infantry, the Type-25 Rifle's lethality is considerably greater than its counterpart, the Type-25 Directed Energy Pistol, due to the faster rate of fire, injuries inflicted to the victim are severe third-degree burns, with the wound being cauterized instantly upon impact. Even near misses will produce severe burns and heat trauma. Should the plasma impact an object, the impact can create fragments that may come into contact with a victim, with a crippling or lethal effect. Generally, two hits from either a Plasma Pistol or Plasma Rifle will kill a light or non-armored target.".
(The Type 25 rifle is the Plasma Rifle)
While they do not work along the same mechanisms the Covenant Plasma Rifles produces similar, if somewhat less potent, results. Lasguns are described as burning holes into people and, like the Plasma Rifle, cauterizing the wounds they create. Plasma Rifles do seem better suited for killing unarmored targets, to be fair.
halo wiki wrote:The outer shell of the MJOLNIR armor is comprised of a fairly thick titanium alloy. This plating covers the chest, arms, hip, legs, calves, feet and hands. This alloy is very resilient, can take significant punishment, and is nearly impervious to small arms fire.
[...] one or two direct hits from any Plasma weapon will compromise the armor plating.
Yeah, sounds like the Marine has a great advantage when it comes to armour.
