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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess it comes down to a weapons pissing contest. I've lost way too many marines to jerk-off guardsmen with plasma guns to have any respect left for them at all.

You mean a gun that is good at killing heavy infantry is killing your heavy infantry?!
What a shock!

It's not as if every space marine is armed with a weapon that's good at killing light infantry and can shrug off most basic weapons...oh wait.

That's not my point. My point is that it's the plasma gun making the guardsman better than the space marine. It is also making all the marine's extra gear useless. Also, shrugging off "most" basic weapons is really only 2/3 of them. Spamming wounds is a very common way of just mowing them down wholesale.

That same tactic works against Spartans much more quickly than it does against Space Marines. Fire saturation is highly, highly effective against anything in Halo that has shields.

 Psienesis wrote:
That same tactic works against Spartans much more quickly than it does against Space Marines. Fire saturation is highly, highly effective against anything in Halo that has shields.

Maybe. I'm probably also extremely biased after many months of marine massacres as well.

Well yeah, that's the point behind specialist weapons; they make your puny guys better at killing nastier targets. By your logic, terminators are useless because a space marine with a plasma gun can kill them easily.

Also, do you know how many bolter wounds an IG can shrug off? None.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well yeah, that's the point behind specialist weapons; they make your puny guys better at killing nastier targets. By your logic, terminators are useless because a space marine with a plasma gun can kill them easily.

Also, do you know how many bolter wounds an IG can shrug off? None.

Terminators are useless, though. They are more than double the points of a marine, but can only take double the fire, statistically speaking.

So it balances out then, as they also have an invul field (which does grant them some defense against AP2), power fists, better leadership, an extra attack and a better gun.

Terminators are hardly useless.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it balances out then, as they also have an invul field (which does grant them some defense against AP2), power fists, better leadership, an extra attack and a better gun.

Terminators are hardly useless.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then, because I think terminators are actually worse than useless. Their pricetag is absolutely insane for what little utility they bring.

You know what?

We're missing something important here.

The Marine wins, because the Marine can bring an allied CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You know what?

We're missing something important here.

The Marine wins, because the Marine can bring an allied CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

How did I miss that? Silly me.

Martel732 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
That same tactic works against Spartans much more quickly than it does against Space Marines. Fire saturation is highly, highly effective against anything in Halo that has shields.

Maybe. I'm probably also extremely biased after many months of marine massacres as well.

Game stats =/= fluff.

A true fluffy marine would, at base stats, be WS5, BS5, T5, W3, I5, A3 and have FnP. He'd cost roughly 35 points with just a bolter, pistol, and grenades.

Terminators would be WS6, BS6, T5, W5, I6, A4, and have 4+ FnP. He'd cost 70 points.

Marines are kind of in a weird spot rulewise. They have to be balanced out, otherwise you'd play with a single Tac squad against a IG army.

I kind of don't care about the fluff. I care about their on-table performance. Which, in general for 6th edition, kinda sucks. They don't play like super soliders at all. They play like super liabilities.

Well this is a fluff argument, not table top.

while I do love master chief, and curse my sisters for breaking halo 4 and denying me the chance of a play through on legendary, my vote goes to the marine. the only thing chief has going for him is that he Is way faster, although if he has cortana she could probably point out the armour weak spots, maybe chief could shoot his elbows out?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well this is a fluff argument, not table top.

Oh. Then carry on, then. I know the fluff in no way matches the reality of the game, so I don't care about it.

Marine, he could get gak through one of his hearts and keep fighting.

Master chief is the equivalent...I would say to a captain, maybe even a smaller grade chapter master.

So, let's say Pedro Kantor. Pedro would brow him out of the water.

Your basic Sternguard would smoke master chief.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it balances out then, as they also have an invul field (which does grant them some defense against AP2), power fists, better leadership, an extra attack and a better gun.

Terminators are hardly useless.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then, because I think terminators are actually worse than useless. Their pricetag is absolutely insane for what little utility they bring.

I concur, I've seen thirty Shoota Boyz practically laugh off my terminators before I could do anything. If any mob gets within range, any termy is toast. I'm embarrassed to admit it but I lost a squad of five to cultist once.

I've seen stealth suits kill Hive Tyrants in close combat and squads of flayed ones massacre tau gun lines. In a game of random chance, anything is possible.

Did you try shooting the shoota boyz before they came within 18" range? Was it over a course of 1 turn?

Gretchin can cut down a Daemon Prince in melee, so yea.
Game mechanics are... Game mechanics.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You know what?

We're missing something important here.

The Marine wins, because the Marine can bring an allied CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

Oh dear it is all over now.
A single CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT already is the doom of an entire universe. The Marine could even bring multiple CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORTs. There exists no word that describes the extreme wailing and gnashing of teeth that would ensue were such a thing, as foretold in the prophecies, finally come to pass.

Just to give you all an idea of roughly what the standard astartes bolter fires...




this is a 20MM grenade launcher, which is theoretically identical to what your standard astares fires (.75calibre is roughly 19mm)
except, he is firing it in 2-4 round bursts, and the rounds are rocket propelled, giving it a combat range of about 150m.

If that's what it fires, then marines are getting completely ripped off on the table top. 40K infantry tech in many ways is inferior to what we have RIGHT NOW in the US military. Tanks can't move and shoot well, garbage tank armor, etc.

Martel732 wrote:
If that's what it fires, then marines are getting completely ripped off on the table top. 40K infantry tech in many ways is inferior to what we have RIGHT NOW in the US military. Tanks can't move and shoot well, garbage tank armor, etc.

Again, rules =/= fluff.

It's just impossible for me to give more credence to what the dopey GW authors write vs what actually happens every time I play. THAT is the reality of marine efficacy, not the fluff. But this has been a problem since 2nd edition.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I've seen stealth suits kill Hive Tyrants in close combat and squads of flayed ones massacre tau gun lines. In a game of random chance, anything is possible.

Did you try shooting the shoota boyz before they came within 18" range? Was it over a course of 1 turn?

I deep struck 10 assault marines with a termy chaplain. Landed too close. First 50-60 shots resulted in 7 wounds and I rolled 3 ones. Next turn I said F-it and moved in, figured I'd charge them. In theory with my reroll hits and reroll wounds I'd get them down fast. Didn't get close enough, lost 2 more, charged and over watch took a few down. By the time I got in close combat I had 2 termies left and the chaplain. I got monkey stomped.

That would be called "bad luck." It happens.

Ork are no joke, can't believe they're playing with a 4th edition codex

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That would be called "bad luck." It happens.

Actually, that's a common occurrence with deep striking. Deep striking without pods or locators is awful. Just awful. Deep striking assault elements is particularly bad because they can't assault till turn 3. The game could be over by then if you went second.

To address the overall issue of terminators, they are awful in general, but particularly awful against boyz.

I was referring to the fact that he landed too close and failed his charge.
Deep Striking is indeed tricky, but at least marines get something to help out.

Besides, of course termies aren't great against light infantry; that is not their intended target. Termies are meant to go after vehicles and other units of heavy infantry. That's why they have fists, lightning claws and hammers.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I was referring to the fact that he landed too close and failed his charge.
Deep Striking is indeed tricky, but at least marines get something to help out.

Besides, of course termies aren't great against light infantry; that is not their intended target. Termies are meant to go after vehicles and other units of heavy infantry. That's why they have fists, lightning claws and hammers.

But they're not even good at that for what they cost. Vehicles can be killed by any jerk off marine with their krak grenades. The key is not getting filled full of shurikens or gunned down by scatterlasers trying to get there. Marines and terminators both fail at this miserably, but terminators are extra bad, since every "1" you roll costs you 40 pts. Unacceptable and easily handled by any good player.

Let's use a common frame of reference in both universes. I suggest frag and plasma grenades. It's hard to directly compare most of the other weapons and rules. But let's imagine that a S3 AP- frag grenade is universal in Halo and 40k. Similarly plasma grenades are S4 AP4.

To wound/kill a Space Marine in power armor with a frag grenade (assuming a direct hit) it wounds 1/3 the time, beats armor 1/3 the time. So statistically out of 9 direct hits from frag grenades, only one would be fatal. So if you throw 4.5 grenades at him, there's only a 50% chance he's dead.

Master Chief, usually can take 2-3 direct hit frag grenades, depending on the difficulty. It's not a great comparison, but I think you could say that Chief is not quite Space Marine caliber.

And fluff-wise, the recruits for Space Marines are selected from only the most fit and motivated, chosen from hundreds of worlds across the imperium. Their selection pool is far wider than the Spartan program, and their genetic enhancements are far more intrusive and powerful than the Spartan programs.

Weapons-wise, just see how long it takes MC to kill an elite with a battle-rifle. I'm inclined to think that a bolter would put them down much faster.

If Master Chief were a 40k model, he'd probably be a T3 Space Marine scout, with a refractor field (5+ invul).