Believe it or not, there was a time when there was no invulnerable save better than 4+ and no cover save could be better than 4+.

Nowadays it's easy to get cover saves in the 2+ and 3+ range, and more than a few armies sport 3+ invulnerable saves or even 2+ invulnerable saves. Throw in FNP, reanimation protocols, and even a lascannon has to make it through 4 dice rolls just to inflict a wound on some things.

I get that it isn't fun to have your company commander die before he gets into action, but that's why transports are a thing, or deep striking, or other ways to protect your warlord from a shooty death. All of the invulnerable saves just sorta seem like a lazy solution to the problem of uncinematic deaths.

Cover saves are a bit different, primarily because they don't count in close combat. So in that respect, cover is a much more dynamic and tactical part of the game. On the flipside to the 2+/3+ high cover saves, we now have plenty of ranged weapons that ignore cover altogether. Back in the days of 3rd edition cityfight, only flamers could ignore cover. Over a distance, ordnance weapons forced a -1 to cover saves, strength 9+ ordnance was -2 to cover saves. Elevation gave -1. It seems like a much better system to have weapons modify cover, rather than have Tau airburst, marker lights, and IG colossi that just ignore cover altogether.

Yeah, but now there is enough lead/plasma/laser beams flying around that without that stuff everything dies a horrible death at 24-36".

With the sheer amount of AP2, AP3, and instant death and ignores cover in the game? NOPE.

Cover saves are fine for the exact reasons you just listed. Invulnerable saves, on the other hand, have gotten out of hand. The big problem with Invul is there's absolutely no way to counter it. 2+ Invul should not be a thing, except perhaps at apocalypse level. If Invuls went back to being no better than 4+, it would be an improvement.

Edit: With multiple wounds, units to soak up wounds for characters, the fact that stuff still has to successfully roll to hit and to wound, and a well protected HQ will still have to fail Invul on 4+/5+ and/or FNP. Plus there's Eternal Warrior/high toughness to avoid Instant Death. Come on, guys. You don't need a 2+ Invulnerable save. Claiming you "need" to be able to ignore 5 out of every 6 attacks that come your way, no matter how strong they are (and those super strong, super AP, Ignore cover attacks cost a pretty penny) reeks of strategic laziness. Figure out how to maneuver better. 2+ rerollable invul makes 40k a twisted parody of itself. "Oh, after killing the rest of my squad and lobbing 36 attacks at me you managed to get a single wound. Now repeat that 2 more times. Shoot at me if you want, I can stand out in the open and rain psychic death all day, baby. You wanna charge? Come at me, Bro. It works just as well in CC. I think I'll challenge your character." I'm here to play one army against another, not a bunch of gun toting crooks going up against ing Superman.

If it makes you feel any better I think the only way to see 3++ in my army is to take a forgelord with cataphractii TDA and a cyber familiar.

I don't know if it's the Invulnerable Saves or the prevalence of AP3 stuff, but I HATE the fact that Power Armor is basically unimpressive anymore. What is this, Mordheim? I want Chaos Space Marines that can advance into a hail of fire, not ones that have to hide from Storm Troopers.

You know I only thought of one model who can get a 2++ and that's the Archon, and the lose it the second they fail it. Who am I forgetting? Tzeentch Daemons with Grimore and luck?

Can't Ghaz get a 2+ invuln for a single turn?

A couple named DE characters have the same upgrade you were thinking of for Archons.

And the Tzeentch demon-thing, yeah.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Can't Ghaz get a 2+ invuln for a single turn?

I think he might, but it's only for a single turn when he calls that WAAAGH.

 Jimsolo wrote:
A couple named DE characters have the same upgrade you were thinking of for Archons.

Which can be defeated by bolters and forcing high number of saves, especially the second it fails the first time the Archon is out of a save unless they bought Ghostplay (which only gives a 4+/6++). Also multi-shot S6 weapons make Archons sad (oh hi Tau, Eldar and Guard!)

 Jimsolo wrote:
And the Tzeentch demon-thing, yeah.

Which requires luck to get it to work and can be stopped by nuking the model with the Grimnoire. It's not like they get to keep it.

So yeah, 2++ exists, but it's not exactly as prevelant as the OP makes it sound, and it's a bit finicky and limited in how long it works.

Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

You don't.

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

CSM max out at 3++ (MoT rules).

Chrysis wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

You don't.

Take possessed, obliterators, mutilators or warp talons, give them mark of Tzeentch, ally with chaos daemons, get the grimoire, throw it at the previously named unit and enjoy.

There's also the 2++ for the Nemesis Warding Stave but that's only in CC so it's not quite as terrible.

 Dantioch wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

You don't.

Take possessed, obliterators, mutilators or warp talons, give them mark of Tzeentch, ally with chaos daemons, get the grimoire, throw it at the previously named unit and enjoy.

Nope. Mark of Tzeentch can't take them past a 3++. If you're rolling a 2++ using the Mark of Tzeentch you're cheating.

The real worry is where GW will take the powercreep now...There's crazy rules ignoring stuff all over the place. 2++ saves, rerollable 2+ saves, twin-linked ignores cover ap2/3 shooting... Where do they go next?

As far as I know that the only invul save I get is for my zooanthropes (which is 3++).

I know the DE can get a decent number of invul (I don't know which units or when) but they haven't gotten a new codex yet either. Orks are running around with a really old codex and I'd bet they're the next xenos to be updated.

Da Butcha wrote:
I don't know if it's the Invulnerable Saves or the prevalence of AP3 stuff, but I HATE the fact that Power Armor is basically unimpressive anymore. What is this, Mordheim? I want Chaos Space Marines that can advance into a hail of fire, not ones that have to hide from Storm Troopers.

Stormtroopers have been AP3 for 5 years, and Marines have never had much reason to fear them. There's not going to be much of a reason for that to change. AP3 is scary on paper, S3 18" Rapid Fire however is not, and even a modicum of cover can greatly mitigate that (20 BS4 hotshot lasgun shots against MEQ's in 5+ cover will kill a grand total of 3 Marines on average, not noticeably scarier than the same squad getting hit by an S6 AP4 pieplate). I'd trade that AP3 for any number of things in a heartbeat.

 fallinq wrote:
Cover saves are fine for the exact reasons you just listed. Invulnerable saves, on the other hand, have gotten out of hand. The big problem with Invul is there's absolutely no way to counter it. 2+ Invul should not be a thing, except perhaps at apocalypse level. If Invuls went back to being no better than 4+, it would be an improvement.

Edit: With multiple wounds, units to soak up wounds for characters, the fact that stuff still has to successfully roll to hit and to wound, and a well protected HQ will still have to fail Invul on 4+/5+ and/or FNP. Plus there's Eternal Warrior/high toughness to avoid Instant Death. Come on, guys. You don't need a 2+ Invulnerable save. Claiming you "need" to be able to ignore 5 out of every 6 attacks that come your way, no matter how strong they are (and those super strong, super AP, Ignore cover attacks cost a pretty penny) reeks of strategic laziness. Figure out how to maneuver better. 2+ rerollable invul makes 40k a twisted parody of itself. "Oh, after killing the rest of my squad and lobbing 36 attacks at me you managed to get a single wound. Now repeat that 2 more times. Shoot at me if you want, I can stand out in the open and rain psychic death all day, baby. You wanna charge? Come at me, Bro. It works just as well in CC. I think I'll challenge your character." I'm here to play one army against another, not a bunch of gun toting crooks going up against ing Superman.

Shadowfields do offer a 2++, but it goes away the moment you roll a one for the rest of the game. They're also only available on Dark Eldar archons to my knowledge.

Also; Hammernators, Zoans, and Wraiths wouldn't survive very long without their integral 3++ saves.

Back in ye olden days; while good invulnerable saves were a thing; there were quite a few options that messed with them or outright ignored them.

Now GW seems to believe that only D weapons should ever negatively affect invulnerable saves as evidenced by the stripping of all ignores invulnerable save effects, dropping reroll successful invulnerable saves/negating rerolled failed saves from the Swarmlord, Daemonhammer, and Psycannon, and I can bet you that when the next GK book drops the Vindicaire will lose shieldbreaker.

Of course one of these options was the Necron warscythe; and bringing back ways to counter invulnerable saves would probably solidify the royal court disco inferno's position as the punchiest death star ever (it's overshadowed by other Deathstars not because they hit harder, but because those stars are practically invulnerable and can fly across the board, also the Necron Deathstar will run you at over a thousand points, i.e Sanely costed).

The problem of course; is that most of these options were assault only, and the most annoying death stars rely on psychic spam or guns and move really, really fast. Only the Beast, Spyder, and Wraith star rely on getting up close and personal to my knowledge.

To deal with the psychic abilities; I suggest not nerfing psychic powers, but reverse the trend of nerfing psychic countering. Want your screamer star or uber-prince? Sure, as long as you don't mind rolling all your powers on a 3d6, at a stiff leadership penalty, with a good chance of it being stonewalled outright, sucking on a free perils, or any combination of the above.

Some option to dispel buffs or maledictions with your own psychic powers would also be good.

The first rule of any magic system is to always have ways to counter said magic system that anyone can have access to, preferably not entirely fool proof; but enough to make someone think twice about basing their game purely around said system so that more mundane systems can compete.

Belly wrote:
The real worry is where GW will take the powercreep now...There's crazy rules ignoring stuff all over the place. 2++ saves, rerollable 2+ saves, twin-linked ignores cover ap2/3 shooting... Where do they go next?

Destroyer Weapons.

 fallinq wrote:
The big problem with Invul is there's absolutely no way to counter it. 2+ Invul should not be a thing

A lot of armies can take an Inquisitor attachment and bring a sniper. So actually most armies have a counter.

 Purifier wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
The big problem with Invul is there's absolutely no way to counter it. 2+ Invul should not be a thing

A lot of armies can take an Inquisitor attachment and bring a sniper. So actually most armies have a counter.

One, single, solitary vindicaire.

Good when you'd only really see 2++s on shadowfield archons, not so good against screamerstar (it is however, good vs uber-princes) or beast star.

If there were more things that forced invulnerable saves to be rerolled if successful/outright ignored them like before and more ways to cockblock psykers the Screamer star would be less threatening.

 Kain wrote:
The first rule of any magic system is to always have ways to counter said magic system that anyone can have access to, preferably not entirely fool proof; but enough to make someone think twice about basing their game purely around said system so that more mundane systems can compete.

So... Deny the witch, anyone? But fair enough, I think there should be some way for psykers to take deny the witch rolls that don't directly affect them, including powers that normally don't have DtW saves taken against them.

Chrysis wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

You don't.

Take possessed, obliterators, mutilators or warp talons, give them mark of Tzeentch, ally with chaos daemons, get the grimoire, throw it at the previously named unit and enjoy.

Nope. Mark of Tzeentch can't take them past a 3++. If you're rolling a 2++ using the Mark of Tzeentch you're cheating.

Nope, the Mark of Tzeentch takes them down to 4++, the Grimoir itself however pushes them past it. Not cheating at all.

 Kain wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
The big problem with Invul is there's absolutely no way to counter it. 2+ Invul should not be a thing

A lot of armies can take an Inquisitor attachment and bring a sniper. So actually most armies have a counter.

One, single, solitary vindicaire.

Good when you'd only really see 2++s on shadowfield archons, not so good against screamerstar (it is however, good vs uber-princes) or beast star.

If there were more things that forced invulnerable saves to be rerolled if successful/outright ignored them like before and more ways to cockblock psykers the Screamer star would be less threatening.

So it manages to counter all but two very specific builds. That's hardly "absolutely no way to counter."

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

You don't.

Take possessed, obliterators, mutilators or warp talons, give them mark of Tzeentch, ally with chaos daemons, get the grimoire, throw it at the previously named unit and enjoy.

Nope. Mark of Tzeentch can't take them past a 3++. If you're rolling a 2++ using the Mark of Tzeentch you're cheating.

Nope, the Mark of Tzeentch takes them down to 4++, the Grimoir itself however pushes them past it. Not cheating at all.

Yes, yes it is. You are applying an OoO without any allowance to do so. MoT is VERY Clear that you cannot improve an inv save past 3++ with it, and you have just done EXACTLY that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You know I only thought of one model who can get a 2++ and that's the Archon, and the lose it the second they fail it. Who am I forgetting? Tzeentch Daemons with Grimore and luck?

Forewarning. If they have 12 chances on Divination, they have a very good chance of getting it. (7/8 or something like that.)

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Nope, the Mark of Tzeentch takes them down to 4++, the Grimoir itself however pushes them past it. Not cheating at all.

Yes, yes it is. You are applying an OoO without any allowance to do so. MoT is VERY Clear that you cannot improve an inv save past 3++ with it, and you have just done EXACTLY that.

The exact rule is "Models with the Mark of Tzeentch have +1 to their invulnerable save (to a maximum of 3+)." To me that seems the maximum applies only to the +1 from MoT, not any further boosts.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You know I only thought of one model who can get a 2++ and that's the Archon, and the lose it the second they fail it. Who am I forgetting? Tzeentch Daemons with Grimore and luck?

The screamer star is built for this.

With four heralds you have enough rolls to more or less garaunteed getting forewarning, and you hide the bearer of the grimoire within the unit of screamers and then run around spamming flickering fire and lamprey bites until everyone's dead.

LoS protects the Grimoire holder from getting sniped out and he can just refuse any and all challengers.

Not to mention he's on a jetbike so good luck catching him.

The other cheese build is the Uber-prince: Roll up forewarning, have fateweaver with the grimoire and slap on either a greater etherblade or a blade eternal. Try for biomancy goodies.

Remember the hulked out biomancy swarmlord? Well the Uber-Prince is far, far worse. With forewarning, iron arm, the eternal blade, and warp speed the prince reliably defeats any of the Forge World Primarchs or Daemon Lords.

You can also grimoire tzeentch units sitting on a skyshield. Because your Lord of Change deserves to be invincible.

 Purifier wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
The big problem with Invul is there's absolutely no way to counter it. 2+ Invul should not be a thing

A lot of armies can take an Inquisitor attachment and bring a sniper. So actually most armies have a counter.

One, single, solitary vindicaire.

Good when you'd only really see 2++s on shadowfield archons, not so good against screamerstar (it is however, good vs uber-princes) or beast star.

If there were more things that forced invulnerable saves to be rerolled if successful/outright ignored them like before and more ways to cockblock psykers the Screamer star would be less threatening.

So it manages to counter all but two very specific builds. That's hardly "absolutely no way to counter."

Things it also doesn't stop:

Jetlock seer council

*Multiple* Uber-princes (sure only one will have a 2++ rerollable, but as long as the grimoire bearer lives they can switch the target)

Khorne dogs

Brother Michael wrote:

 Kain wrote:
The first rule of any magic system is to always have ways to counter said magic system that anyone can have access to, preferably not entirely fool proof; but enough to make someone think twice about basing their game purely around said system so that more mundane systems can compete.

So... Deny the witch, anyone? But fair enough, I think there should be some way for psykers to take deny the witch rolls that don't directly affect them, including powers that normally don't have DtW saves taken against them.

Deny the witch blocks maledictions and witchfire, but GW seems to think that blocking blessings is overpowered; despite blessings being the biggest problem.

The ability to strip away blessings or more directly interfere with the manifestation of powers is a must.

Nope...they need to add Really Really We Mean It Invul saves since they let D weapons in the game.

I don't think invulnerable saves are out of control, I think it's more that RE ROLLABLE Invulnerable saves break the game and always have. They need to seriously take a huge Nerf Bat to that. It should straight up only be on Armour Saves or you have to Reroll wounds.

Prescience
Fortune


etc.. etc.. should all be changed to reroll to wound against NOT reroll invuln. It'd pretty much fix the entire game. It'd still give those units huge boosts in saving against things, but it'd not allow them to be literally unkillable. Seerstar and it's ilk is fundamentally broken and ruins the game.

Like just look at the fact that almost a full 25 percent of all armies at Tournaments sometimes more is a variation of that.

Hollismason wrote:
I don't think invulnerable saves are out of control, I think it's more that RE ROLLABLE Invulnerable saves break the game and always have. They need to seriously take a huge Nerf Bat to that. It should straight up only be on Armour Saves or you have to Reroll wounds.

I'm with you. IMO, the game would be a whole lot better if you only ever rolled one save...your best save available save, but only once. No rerolls, no FNP.

I don't mind feel no pain, and I think the reduction to 5+ helped a lot, but I think a more reasonable solution is just not allowing Rerollable invulnerables or forcing a re-roll of wounds against.

Right now though it is broken.

Any model though that has a 2+ invulnerable then a re-roll is broken. I mean just look at all the "serious" tourney lists they all revolve around re rolling invulnerable saves.

 jasper76 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I don't think invulnerable saves are out of control, I think it's more that RE ROLLABLE Invulnerable saves break the game and always have. They need to seriously take a huge Nerf Bat to that. It should straight up only be on Armour Saves or you have to Reroll wounds.

I'm with you. IMO, the game would be a whole lot better if you only ever rolled one save...your best save available save, but only once. No rerolls, no FNP.

And thus nobody used plague marines, apothecaries, ork doks, daemons of nurgle, catalyst, endurance, Iron Hands builds are far less useful, the Icon of Slaanesh is now a useless flag, the Phoenix lord Feugan loses much of his durability, Old One Eye's warlord trait is now entirely useless, the Blood Angels suck even harder without FNP,

tl;dr getting rid of FNP is idiotic and breaks a massive number of units and sometimes entire armies. It's also been a rule for a very, very long time.

Also, Fortune is an integral and iconic Eldar power; and Tzeentch, as a deity of chance, has always been associated with rerolls, getting rid of all rerolls for saves ever means you've gutted the identities of two major parts of the game.

Straight out removing things is a lazy man's way of balancing a game. Rather, you look at the strongest thing; and you balance everything to that level. Make everyone equally strong and overpowered, not weak and boring.

 Kain wrote:
getting rid of FNP is idiotic and breaks a massive number of units and sometimes entire armies. It's also been a rule for a very, very long time.

Idiotic is a strong word to use. A 1 wound model, who dies due to any unsaved 40k wound received, can just not feel it, and continue to rumble with half a body left?

I can understand it would be bad news for anyone used to rolling FNP on everything.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
getting rid of FNP is idiotic and breaks a massive number of units and sometimes entire armies. It's also been a rule for a very, very long time.

Idiotic is a strong word to use. A 1 wound model, who dies due to any unsaved 40k wound received, can just not feel it, and continue to rumble with half a body left?

I can understand it would be bad news for anyone used to rolling FNP on everything.

That's kind of what feel no pain entails. It means injuries quite simply don't bother you unless they literally make it physically impossible to keep on fighting.

Blowing off a plague marine's entire lower body only slows him down even if it would make others quickly die from blood loss or shock.

OK, so how is the Plague Marine exactly slowed down in the rules after a successful FNP save?

Is his movement cut by half? Initiative reduced?

 Kain wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I don't think invulnerable saves are out of control, I think it's more that RE ROLLABLE Invulnerable saves break the game and always have. They need to seriously take a huge Nerf Bat to that. It should straight up only be on Armour Saves or you have to Reroll wounds.

I'm with you. IMO, the game would be a whole lot better if you only ever rolled one save...your best save available save, but only once. No rerolls, no FNP.

And thus nobody used plague marines, apothecaries, ork doks, daemons of nurgle, catalyst, endurance, Iron Hands builds are far less useful, the Icon of Slaanesh is now a useless flag, the Phoenix lord Feugan loses much of his durability, Old One Eye's warlord trait is now entirely useless, the Blood Angels suck even harder without FNP,

tl;dr getting rid of FNP is idiotic and breaks a massive number of units and sometimes entire armies. It's also been a rule for a very, very long time.

Also, Fortune is an integral and iconic Eldar power; and Tzeentch, as a deity of chance, has always been associated with rerolls, getting rid of all rerolls for saves ever means you've gutted the identities of two major parts of the game.

Straight out removing things is a lazy man's way of balancing a game. Rather, you look at the strongest thing; and you balance everything to that level. Make everyone equally strong and overpowered, not weak and boring.

I don't have a problem with Feel no Pain, I think it's balanced now that it's a 5+. Although it used to not be able to be used against things that caused instant death I believe.

Fortune has always been a part of the Eldar army that is absolutely true all the way back to 2nd edition. However it only worked on armour saves, not invulnerable saves. So yeah your wrong on that. It's not getting rid of a power it's changing the way it works, it's still a buff and a really great one. However being able to re roll cover saves ( basically invulnerables) and invulnerable is broken. Also, Tzeentch reroll isn't true Fateweaver did that not Tzeentch, Tzeentch had always been associated with giving better Invulns. So yeah no. Actually I don't think you could reroll invulnerables in 2nd edition at all I think either that or Ruin Armour was 5+ or something like that.


On the last point I disagree completely and utterly and here's why. There's first no way to balance everything to that level unless you create weapons that ignore all saves. So that's a huge deal, escalation to overcome is the path to power creep and the worst thing that could happen. Your escalation will damage the game just like the escalation of that power.

Also I am more of fan of modifiers to hit than I am of cover saves. I prefer the negative to hits. It's just better and makes more sense in my opinion and they should remove it.

 Kain wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I don't think invulnerable saves are out of control, I think it's more that RE ROLLABLE Invulnerable saves break the game and always have. They need to seriously take a huge Nerf Bat to that. It should straight up only be on Armour Saves or you have to Reroll wounds.

I'm with you. IMO, the game would be a whole lot better if you only ever rolled one save...your best save available save, but only once. No rerolls, no FNP.

And thus nobody used plague marines, apothecaries, ork doks, daemons of nurgle, catalyst, endurance, Iron Hands builds are far less useful, the Icon of Slaanesh is now a useless flag, the Phoenix lord Feugan loses much of his durability, Old One Eye's warlord trait is now entirely useless, the Blood Angels suck even harder without FNP,

tl;dr getting rid of FNP is idiotic and breaks a massive number of units and sometimes entire armies. It's also been a rule for a very, very long time.

Also, Fortune is an integral and iconic Eldar power; and Tzeentch, as a deity of chance, has always been associated with rerolls, getting rid of all rerolls for saves ever means you've gutted the identities of two major parts of the game.

Straight out removing things is a lazy man's way of balancing a game. Rather, you look at the strongest thing; and you balance everything to that level. Make everyone equally strong and overpowered, not weak and boring.

(Only replying again because you've basically called me an idiot).

The arguments you have here are [a] FNP is good because lots of units have it, [b] FNP is good because its been there for a long time. Well, lots of people have herpes, and its been here for a long time as well, but neither of those facts make it a good thing.

 jasper76 wrote:
OK, so how is the Plague Marine exactly slowed down in the rules after a successful FNP save?

Is his movement cut by half? Initiative reduced?

Representing this would slow down the game so it's simply represented as a small chance to ignore a wound.

I mean, even in one on one role playing games damage to the body is usually abstracted for the sake of keeping things going.

Hollismason wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I don't think invulnerable saves are out of control, I think it's more that RE ROLLABLE Invulnerable saves break the game and always have. They need to seriously take a huge Nerf Bat to that. It should straight up only be on Armour Saves or you have to Reroll wounds.

I'm with you. IMO, the game would be a whole lot better if you only ever rolled one save...your best save available save, but only once. No rerolls, no FNP.

And thus nobody used plague marines, apothecaries, ork doks, daemons of nurgle, catalyst, endurance, Iron Hands builds are far less useful, the Icon of Slaanesh is now a useless flag, the Phoenix lord Feugan loses much of his durability, Old One Eye's warlord trait is now entirely useless, the Blood Angels suck even harder without FNP,

tl;dr getting rid of FNP is idiotic and breaks a massive number of units and sometimes entire armies. It's also been a rule for a very, very long time.

Also, Fortune is an integral and iconic Eldar power; and Tzeentch, as a deity of chance, has always been associated with rerolls, getting rid of all rerolls for saves ever means you've gutted the identities of two major parts of the game.

Straight out removing things is a lazy man's way of balancing a game. Rather, you look at the strongest thing; and you balance everything to that level. Make everyone equally strong and overpowered, not weak and boring.

I don't have a problem with Feel no Pain, I think it's balanced now that it's a 5+. Although it used to not be able to be used against things that caused instant death I believe.

Fortune has always been a part of the Eldar army that is absolutely true all the way back to 2nd edition. However it only worked on armour saves, not invulnerable saves. So yeah your wrong on that. It's not getting rid of a power it's changing the way it works, it's still a buff and a really great one. However being able to re roll cover saves ( basically invulnerables) and invulnerable is broken. Also, Tzeentch reroll isn't true Fateweaver did that not Tzeentch, Tzeentch had always been associated with giving better Invulns. So yeah no.


On the last point I disagree completely and utterly and here's why. There's first no way to balance everything to that level unless you create weapons that ignore all saves. So that's a huge deal, escalation to overcome is the path to power creep and the worst thing that could happen. Your escalation will damage the game just like the escalation of that power.

Also I am more of fan of modifiers to hit than I am of cover saves. I prefer the negative to hits. It's just better and makes more sense in my opinion and they should remove it.

FNP used to be ignored by power weapons, AP2, and instant death. The new FNP being universal against anything that didn't cause ID is balanced out by the worsening of how often it occurs.

4+ FNP wasn't really terrible on plague marines, but that may be born out of how the usual response was to dump an S8 AP3+ pieplate on them and watch them explode.

I'm guessing you missed things like warp time? And Fateweaver is the tzeentchiest unit who ever tzeentched. Lots of psychic shenanigans, messes with chance and probability, screws you over big time if the dice don't like you (i.e, a grot getting a wound on him and him promptly noping off the board). And even on the Eldar units with the best native invulnerable saves fortune hasn't really overpowered things, but that may be because my group's Homebrew and Houserules brought back a lot of the old forces you to reroll passed invulnerable saves things or outright ignores them (Warscythes, C'tan, Callidus assassins).

And we have done my system of balance; affectionately named Gurren Laggan 40k because we included fluff bits like that one necron warscythe that could carve apart a planet in one blow for apocalypse games.

It works fine.

I've even heard there's one army where pretty much every unit has an invulnerable save. Madness, I tell you.

The game really needs a blanket rule that 2+ saves of any kind can never be rerollable. If a rule were to give that a reroll then it should be resolved on a 3 or even 4+

This is pretty much my only significant gripe with 6th.

 Troike wrote:
I've even heard there's one army where pretty much every unit has an invulnerable save. Madness, I tell you.

Hahaha.

Idk, that tickled me for some reason.

 Troike wrote:
I've even heard there's one army where pretty much every unit has an invulnerable save. Madness, I tell you.

Two armies. Sisters and Daemons. And both are generally not that impressive on most units.

Not sure if they are out of control, but i really hate fighting against it. Specialy when some armies have them in huge quantitie or get really strong ones.
Demons having a 6+ invuln, that's cute and fluffy. They always have a t-shirt save no matter what.
Zoanthropes having 3+, while very strong is okay, because they are only elites (3 max) and pretty weak. T4 2W and good targets (they are synapse, support and anti-tank)

( I might be wrong) Marines all having the options to get invuln, and not just 6+, that's extremely annoying and somewhat OP. =(

Addaran wrote:
Not sure if they are out of control, but i really hate fighting against it. Specialy when some armies have them in huge quantitie or get really strong ones.
Demons having a 6+ invuln, that's cute and fluffy. They always have a t-shirt save no matter what.
Zoanthropes having 3+, while very strong is okay, because they are only elites (3 max) and pretty weak. T4 2W and good targets (they are synapse, support and anti-tank)

( I might be wrong) Marines all having the options to get invuln, and not just 6+, that's extremely annoying and somewhat OP. =(

The standard save for daemons is a 5++, they get downgraded to a 6++ if they get a certain and particularly awful warp storm roll (many daemon players outright concede if they roll that)

I don't know of any marine armies where every unit can all get invulnerables.

The Dark Angels maybe?

That PFG mostly applies for shooting; get into assault and both you and the angels will have invulnerable saves.

Dark Angels where you can run pure Deathwing and bring a whole 23 models at 2k (Belial, 4x 5 squads of Deathwing Terminators, 2 Crusaders and some small upgrades (autocannons in the squads, multimeltas on the Land Raiders) and you're out of point and are so heavily outgunned it's not a great idea to actually play it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Dark Angels where you can run pure Deathwing and bring a whole 23 models at 2k (Belial, 4x 5 squads of Deathwing Terminators, 2 Crusaders and some small upgrades (autocannons in the squads, multimeltas on the Land Raiders) and you're out of point and are so heavily outgunned it's not a great idea to actually play it.

Deathwing is so incredibly awful for such a cool concept.

It's like Synapseless and Formationless Tyranids level bad.

Terminator armour stopped being scary when they left behind 2D6 armour saves. You can't be outnumbered 6 to 1 when every 1 in 6 shots kills you.

 xttz wrote:
Terminator armour stopped being scary when they left behind 2D6 armour saves. You can't be outnumbered 6 to 1 when every 1 in 6 shots kills you.

Pretty much. TDA needs to be cheaper or give a re-rollable 2+ to be scary again.

The problem is the enormous increase in shooting power in late 5th and then into 6th edition, which then necessitates a huge increase in survivability. Not only are the actual unit and weapon profiles getting stronger, but the core rules those units/weapons use is making them more powerful as well. On top of all this the point cost for such power is continuously decreasing.

A classic example of power creep, which is now magnified even more so by the inclusion of allies, formations, and non-FOC allies which takes GW's usually bad balance and game design, and creates combinations that were unintended (no matter how obvious they are).


Even now we are seeing GW move shooting profiles to much higher rates of fire to counteract the better invun and cover saves they are giving units.

I think the best way to bring a bit more balance to the game would be to say that, just like for shooting, it becomes capped at a certain point and everything beyond becomes a re-roll with a higher score required. For example, if the cap was 3+, and a 2+ would become a 3+/6+ instead, the survivability would be drastically lowered while still making re-rolls useful.

 jasper76 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I don't think invulnerable saves are out of control, I think it's more that RE ROLLABLE Invulnerable saves break the game and always have. They need to seriously take a huge Nerf Bat to that. It should straight up only be on Armour Saves or you have to Reroll wounds.

I'm with you. IMO, the game would be a whole lot better if you only ever rolled one save...your best save available save, but only once. No rerolls, no FNP.

The the re-rolls are what kind of set me off originally. Farseer with fortune for re-rolls on his squad's 3+ armor save. Because it's OP (triples the armor save), and because it adds so much rolling to the game (I'm in favor of eliminating rolls where possible).

3+ with re-roll is better than 2+. 3+ with re-roll is successful 8/9 times. And the farseer will successfully issue the spell 33/36 times. Even if I had AP 3 weapons, he gets re-rollable 4+ jink saves (better than 3+ equivalent). There's no way to put enough AP3 shots on them, I'd have to shoot the same biker with four different leman russ tank shots just to kill it. What are you supposed to hit them with? It's useless shooting with anything that isn't AP 3 (it would take 54 lasgun shots to take out one biker), but even an AP 3 weapon is only going to break the re-roll jink save 25% of the time. I would need to shoot ten rocket launchers shots to kill just one biker. Can't keep them in combat with their I5 hit-n-run. And nothing can catch them. I really don't understand what is supposed to be able to counter that. The biker's armor save with fortune is much better than terminator armor!

They pretty much need to either eliminate rerolls with another ability or have it apply to only a specific type of save. If there is something in the game that is "unkillable" then it's broken. To a degree yes Seerstar can be defeated but not by much. Especially if it's a large squad.

I know that a Daemon list won Adepticon but seriously look at the number of Seerstar and Fateweaver lists.

 Toburk wrote:
The problem is the enormous increase in shooting power in late 5th and then into 6th edition, which then necessitates a huge increase in survivability. Not only are the actual unit and weapon profiles getting stronger, but the core rules those units/weapons use is making them more powerful as well. On top of all this the point cost for such power is continuously decreasing.

A classic example of power creep, which is now magnified even more so by the inclusion of allies, formations, and non-FOC allies which takes GW's usually bad balance and game design, and creates combinations that were unintended (no matter how obvious they are).


Even now we are seeing GW move shooting profiles to much higher rates of fire to counteract the better invun and cover saves they are giving units.

This is pretty much my biggest gripe with the game in a nut-shell.

 Toburk wrote:
The problem is the enormous increase in shooting power in late 5th and then into 6th edition, which then necessitates a huge increase in survivability. Not only are the actual unit and weapon profiles getting stronger, but the core rules those units/weapons use is making them more powerful as well. On top of all this the point cost for such power is continuously decreasing.

A classic example of power creep, which is now magnified even more so by the inclusion of allies, formations, and non-FOC allies which takes GW's usually bad balance and game design, and creates combinations that were unintended (no matter how obvious they are).


Even now we are seeing GW move shooting profiles to much higher rates of fire to counteract the better invun and cover saves they are giving units.

This. Power creep in offensive shooting has far outpaced most standard defenses. The only ones that remain noteworthy are 14 armor, and good rerollable invulns.
To bring the game back closer to a balanced state, "defense-minded" models like marines, terminators, dark eldar incubi, etc. need to be paying less for what they get, or it needs to be upgraded to keep pace with the escalating shooting power. (Back in 3rd, I ran 3 carnifex, 2 tyrant, and a red terror, all with very minimal loadouts, in an 1850 list, and 5 of the 6 would frequently live long enough to see combat on my opponent's board-side.)

That, and of course, the ridiculous defense outliers need to be reigned in. The 2+/4+ reroll seems to work well, but even a 2+ invuln without a reroll is pretty boss.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Nope, the Mark of Tzeentch takes them down to 4++, the Grimoir itself however pushes them past it. Not cheating at all.

Yes, yes it is. You are applying an OoO without any allowance to do so. MoT is VERY Clear that you cannot improve an inv save past 3++ with it, and you have just done EXACTLY that.

The exact rule is "Models with the Mark of Tzeentch have +1 to their invulnerable save (to a maximum of 3+)." To me that seems the maximum applies only to the +1 from MoT, not any further boosts.

There are NO "further" boosts. Multiple modifiers tells you to apply them all together, you are creating an Order of Operations when none such order can exist in the rules

It is [(5++ +2 +1) Capped at 3+]

Or 5+1(capped at 3)+2, you get choose the order for modifiers if they're both addition.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Or 5+1(capped at 3)+2, you get choose the order for modifiers if they're both addition.

No, no you do not. There is no order of operations there, and there is no allowance to cap half way through. Or are you saying that S6x2 - 1 is S9 now?
(Resolving multiple modifiers is not a set of actions that happen at the same time that the controlling player can then choose to resolve first, so that rule does not apply. You have no permission to apply a cap half way through a calculation, so you cannot do so)

In short, you CANNOT get to a 2+ with the current cahos codex by using MoT. RAW

I look at it this way, there is clearly a cap, so once it's reached it doesn't matter what you try and add to it, the cap cuts you off of any additional bonuses past that point, so it's locked at a 3++.

So what you're saying is I could have +8 to my invulnerable save, but because one of them is from the Mark of Tzeentch it caps at 3+?

On the FNP argument, the feel no pain is for a flesh wound(not the "flesh wound" from Monty Python) or like a cut etc. like a sword might leave a deep cut but adrenaline may keep him going hence feel-no-pain but when the weapon has the power to "blow his legs off" i.e str doubles toughness it ignores it. Don't remove it it represents the rage and disregard of the blood angels, the nerves etc rotting away in plague marines giving the "feel no" part a literal meaning or fuegan where if you read his fluff he is focused on his objective and hasn't hot time for it

But I do agree 2++ re-roll is overpowered but don't remove fortune, it's a iconic power maybe change it to giving an invulnerable save hence the seeing in to the future dodging dangers etc. as read from the power.

The cover modifiers I believe while may of been a more affective thing(a bit of stone wont stop a boltgun or a las cannon blast) I think it was added in for simplicity. Just like the whole armour save being reduced by certain weapons etc.(and don't forget the feared choppa)

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So what you're saying is I could have +8 to my invulnerable save, but because one of them is from the Mark of Tzeentch it caps at 3+?

Yes, because MoT caps the save at 3+. Luckily +8 isnt possible, but if it were you would have to take that into account and, maybe, not take MoT....

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So what you're saying is I could have +8 to my invulnerable save, but because one of them is from the Mark of Tzeentch it caps at 3+?

Pretty extreme example, and if you could do that wouldn't need MoT, but generally the impression the rule gives. It gives a bonus, but it comes with a restriction. I know that it's just how I read it and not YMDC standards but being pure RAW tends to break the game. A lot. So I tend to not go down that road so much.

To the OP, no... but rerolled invulns is too prevalent (really shouldn't exist at all). I like the BAO/LVO ruling that any 2+ save rerolls at 4+. Still better than 3+ reroll, but doesn't break the game.

As much as I don't want to buy another rulebook, we really need either a 6.5 rulebook. Unfortunately the GW rule crew are such amateur hacks that there'll be new stupidness next time around.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Or 5+1(capped at 3)+2, you get choose the order for modifiers if they're both addition.

No, no you do not. There is no order of operations there, and there is no allowance to cap half way through. Or are you saying that S6x2 - 1 is S9 now?
(Resolving multiple modifiers is not a set of actions that happen at the same time that the controlling player can then choose to resolve first, so that rule does not apply. You have no permission to apply a cap half way through a calculation, so you cannot do so)

In short, you CANNOT get to a 2+ with the current cahos codex by using MoT. RAW

That's your reading of the RaW, and to be honest it doesn't satisfy the argument to exclusion of his. And your attitude is as it always is, I see.
A calculation has to have an order of operations. You can't logically add everything at once. Even 1+1+1 has to be done in two steps. There is nothing that states what that order is though, and you've decided on an order of operations that supports your argument, but your whole argument falls if you are saying there is no order of operations. If there isn't then it cannot be added at all.

I'm not saying his argument is perfect either. What I'm saying is that there is nothing but opinions that actually decides on the order of operations, and then you state that as irrefutable evidence.
The raw is unclear, and your attitude of "you're idiots that can't see how perfectly crystal this is" just leaves a sour taste.

I guess it comes down to whether you consider the limitation to be a set modifier or simply a restriction on +1 from MoT. Clearly that is the difference in how we read the rule.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
getting rid of FNP is idiotic and breaks a massive number of units and sometimes entire armies. It's also been a rule for a very, very long time.

Idiotic is a strong word to use. A 1 wound model, who dies due to any unsaved 40k wound received, can just not feel it, and continue to rumble with half a body left?

I can understand it would be bad news for anyone used to rolling FNP on everything.

i think you are just looking at it wrong.
You don't roll FnP to see IF the model feels the pain and dies of shock, because its already been established that the model cannot (hence having FnP in the first place) but rather seeing if the wound is severe enough to shrugged off.

For example, if you pass the FnP roll it's as simple as your guts are trailing on the ground behind you. Without the pain and shock you can continue fighting so you don't die

But f your lower body IS blown off...well that would be represented by failing the FnP roll, hence, your model no longer being able to fight.

You know, I've always though FnP should be a Toughness test. It just makes more sense based on the idea behind the rule.

Then again that'd make MCs with FnP REALLY hard to shift, so perhaps that's not a great idea.

The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

 13whited wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
getting rid of FNP is idiotic and breaks a massive number of units and sometimes entire armies. It's also been a rule for a very, very long time.

Idiotic is a strong word to use. A 1 wound model, who dies due to any unsaved 40k wound received, can just not feel it, and continue to rumble with half a body left?

I can understand it would be bad news for anyone used to rolling FNP on everything.

i think you are just looking at it wrong.
You don't roll FnP to see IF the model feels the pain and dies of shock, because its already been established that the model cannot (hence having FnP in the first place) but rather seeing if the wound is severe enough to shrugged off.

For example, if you pass the FnP roll it's as simple as your guts are trailing on the ground behind you. Without the pain and shock you can continue fighting so you don't die

But f your lower body IS blown off...well that would be represented by failing the FnP roll, hence, your model no longer being able to fight.

When you read the description for the Sisters of Battle 6+ army wide Invuln, it is described as their faith being so strong that they "can shrug off the most severe of wounds"... and you think "wait... there's a specific other different rule for that."
Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that we get it as an invuln, but maybe they shouldn't describe it in the exact same way as the FNP.

 Purifier wrote:

 13whited wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
getting rid of FNP is idiotic and breaks a massive number of units and sometimes entire armies. It's also been a rule for a very, very long time.

Idiotic is a strong word to use. A 1 wound model, who dies due to any unsaved 40k wound received, can just not feel it, and continue to rumble with half a body left?

I can understand it would be bad news for anyone used to rolling FNP on everything.

i think you are just looking at it wrong.
You don't roll FnP to see IF the model feels the pain and dies of shock, because its already been established that the model cannot (hence having FnP in the first place) but rather seeing if the wound is severe enough to shrugged off.

For example, if you pass the FnP roll it's as simple as your guts are trailing on the ground behind you. Without the pain and shock you can continue fighting so you don't die

But f your lower body IS blown off...well that would be represented by failing the FnP roll, hence, your model no longer being able to fight.

When you read the description for the Sisters of Battle 6+ army wide Invuln, it is described as their faith being so strong that they "can shrug off the most severe of wounds"... and you think "wait... there's a specific other different rule for that."
Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that we get it as an invuln, but maybe they shouldn't describe it in the exact same way as the FNP.

Maybe it's less "shrug off all wounds" and "somehow survived mostly unscathed".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

Quoting myself here: I'm definitely not overlooking that Instant Death would still be around to shut it down (making a Librarian with a Force Maul a Carnifex's worst nightmare ).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

I'd take 50 points over a 1 in 6 chance on getting it on a psyker then having to do a psychic test every turn to maintain it for 2+ FNP.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

I'd take 50 points over a 1 in 6 chance on getting it on a psyker then having to do a psychic test every turn to maintain it for 2+ FNP.

Agreed. It'd be points heavy on big things, but there would be ways around it at least and it'd make more sense. And on the flip side on smaller models they're FnP would be worse (only a 50% chance of passing for T3 models for instance).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

CSM max out at 3++ (MoT rules).

Not quite. Take the crimson slaughter rules, use the balestar of mannon, roll the 4++ divination power and ally in daemons with the grimoire.

Boom! 2++ on a daemon unit of your choice (obliterators perhaps?)

 rohansoldier wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Hey so probably a bad time to ask but.......how do i get a 2++ for my chaos space marines? I want in.

CSM max out at 3++ (MoT rules).

Not quite. Take the crimson slaughter rules, use the balestar of mannon, roll the 4++ divination power and ally in daemons with the grimoire.

Boom! 2++ on a daemon unit of your choice (obliterators perhaps?)

So basically "get lucky, and Grimoire (which also requires luck)"?

89% chance with Fateweaver's reroll for Grimoire to work, that's rmore reliable than a 2+.

I don't know about the chances of getting Forewarning though.

Lol lets see how well your 2+ re-rollable invulnerable saves work against my D templates. D templates are the answer to the deathstars of 6th ed, which is why I am so surprised people are against them. Then again its probably the tournament goers that use the deathstars that are against them.

 Xerics wrote:
Lol lets see how well your 2+ re-rollable invulnerable saves work against my D templates. D templates are the answer to the deathstars of 6th ed, which is why I am so surprised people are against them. Then again its probably the tournament goers that use the deathstars that are against them.

Probably because D-Templates are the answer to EVERYTHING, not just that 2+ re-rollable deathstar.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

Please don't make me remember the dark times of last ed's carnifexes.

If anything rerollable 2+ saves should work like WS/BS above 6 or above, you get a reroll but you gotta reroll higher.

 Kain wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

Please don't make me remember the dark times of last ed's carnifexes.

50 points for FnP that only fails on a 6 (Passes on a 1-5)? How does that remind you of "the dark times"?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The equivalent of 2+ Feel No Pain? Now that would be broke as hell. That's like getting a rerollab- oh wait...

You have to admit Feel No Pain -would- make more sense and be more "cinematic" that way. And would likely cost 50 points to put on a Carnifex....

Please don't make me remember the dark times of last ed's carnifexes.

50 points for FnP that only fails on a 6 (Passes on a 1-5)? How does that remind you of "the dark times"?

Carnifexes costing over a certain threshold causes me to enter a fugue state of despair.

Cruddace man, he hurts your soul.

I'll take your word for it.

2++ isn't that bad. Multiple 2++ on a single model? Frustrating as hell

far more of a "problem" with shooting being too strong, too cheap, especially to get ap 1 2 3.

power armour and TDA are basically useless... so ofc people are using the best ++ saves...

I really wish we had the + - modifiers back for ap instead of the stupid "absolute" levels.. so much easier to balance, marines or terminators making 4+ or 5+ armour saves would be much more fun then the "oh you never get to make saves" world we are basically in right now

 easysauce wrote:
far more of a "problem" with shooting being too strong, too cheap, especially to get ap 1 2 3.

power armour and TDA are basically useless... so ofc people are using the best ++ saves...

I really wish we had the + - modifiers back for ap instead of the stupid "absolute" levels.. so much easier to balance, marines or terminators making 4+ or 5+ armour saves would be much more fun then the "oh you never get to make saves" world we are basically in right now

Dear Space Marines,

Use cover.

That is all.

A lot of the prime contenders to the 'PA is too weak' argument are things like drakes, who ignore cover.

But thanks for the input!

Yeah, that's the thing, Ignores Cover on AP2 or AP3 is pretty damn brutal and needs a serious points investment because you're invalidating a LOT of units out there with it, but it seems to be really cheap when it crops up.

 TheSilo wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
far more of a "problem" with shooting being too strong, too cheap, especially to get ap 1 2 3.

power armour and TDA are basically useless... so ofc people are using the best ++ saves...

I really wish we had the + - modifiers back for ap instead of the stupid "absolute" levels.. so much easier to balance, marines or terminators making 4+ or 5+ armour saves would be much more fun then the "oh you never get to make saves" world we are basically in right now

Dear Space Marines,

Use cover.

That is all.

Space Marines pay points to not have to use cover. By the cover argument, we should all just use Ork Boyz.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
far more of a "problem" with shooting being too strong, too cheap, especially to get ap 1 2 3.

power armour and TDA are basically useless... so ofc people are using the best ++ saves...

I really wish we had the + - modifiers back for ap instead of the stupid "absolute" levels.. so much easier to balance, marines or terminators making 4+ or 5+ armour saves would be much more fun then the "oh you never get to make saves" world we are basically in right now

Dear Space Marines,

Use cover.

That is all.

Space Marines pay points to not have to use cover. By the cover argument, we should all just use Ork Boyz.

Why not cultists? They're cheaper AND squishier!

Sorry. Forgot about cultists.

The bigger issue to me is not even AP 1,2,3. It's S 6+. I've seen Eldar table marines and never fire a single AP 1,2, or 3 shot. It was all wound spam. Save over and over and over and over.

Wound spam is how Guard wins fights.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Wound spam is how Guard wins fights.

It's how everyone wins fights.

 TheSilo wrote:
Believe it or not, there was a time when there was no invulnerable save better than 4+ and no cover save could be better than 4+.

Yeah, I remember those months between the 3rd ed BBB and the release of the Dark Eldar Codex. They flew by, so it really feels like that period was NEVER.

It isn't so much that invulnerable saves are too common, or too good; 5++ saves are not reliable as your only defense, for example; but the units with 2++, or rerollable 2/3++ are very undercosted for their survivability.

Jetbiking 2/3++ rerollable unit with good shooting and meltabombs should be far more expensive then they are.

Likewise Riptides are too cheap for a T6, 2+/3++ multi-wound model that is also a jetpack.

The points values compared to other units in their own armies, or allies, are too good.

No one complains about the invulnerable save on warp stalkers or whatever those CSM jumppack guys are. Likewise the 5++ on war walkers.

Cover saves would be an issue if there were not an increasing number of ways to ignore or reduce them. Their cost isn't really a factor.

Invulns, buffs and rerolls however are not costed correctly, so some armies find them easy to stack onto uber units. This is especially obvious for Tau, Eldar and Inq, since they have dedicated buff units. Add in a few undercosted gems like Riptides and you get a deathstar.

GW really needs to get a handle on this now that every army can ally with everyone else. It is too easy to tailor and buff any unit you really would want to by choosing the lowest cost buff model.

It's the constant power creep that plagues this game.

Players always want better stuff on their codexes, so GW goes the way of adding better AP weapons at each new book update.

This in turn requires better invulnerable saves to balance the game again.

Now we are on the point where invulnerable saves are so over the top that D weapons are fit for a normal game, not only Apocalipse.

I'm quite disgusted on how the game works nowadays. Troops and their small weapons are utterly useless as a combat asset.

Their only role is to take objectives, when they should instead be responsible for 70-80% of the fighting as in any believable combat.

But the recent flood of high-toughness and top saves makes the bulk of any army - basic infantry - next to useless.