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 TheSilo wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
far more of a "problem" with shooting being too strong, too cheap, especially to get ap 1 2 3.

power armour and TDA are basically useless... so ofc people are using the best ++ saves...

I really wish we had the + - modifiers back for ap instead of the stupid "absolute" levels.. so much easier to balance, marines or terminators making 4+ or 5+ armour saves would be much more fun then the "oh you never get to make saves" world we are basically in right now

Dear Space Marines,

Use cover.

That is all.

Space Marines pay points to not have to use cover. By the cover argument, we should all just use Ork Boyz.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
far more of a "problem" with shooting being too strong, too cheap, especially to get ap 1 2 3.

power armour and TDA are basically useless... so ofc people are using the best ++ saves...

I really wish we had the + - modifiers back for ap instead of the stupid "absolute" levels.. so much easier to balance, marines or terminators making 4+ or 5+ armour saves would be much more fun then the "oh you never get to make saves" world we are basically in right now

Dear Space Marines,

Use cover.

That is all.

Space Marines pay points to not have to use cover. By the cover argument, we should all just use Ork Boyz.

Why not cultists? They're cheaper AND squishier!

Sorry. Forgot about cultists.

The bigger issue to me is not even AP 1,2,3. It's S 6+. I've seen Eldar table marines and never fire a single AP 1,2, or 3 shot. It was all wound spam. Save over and over and over and over.

Wound spam is how Guard wins fights.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Wound spam is how Guard wins fights.

It's how everyone wins fights.

 TheSilo wrote:
Believe it or not, there was a time when there was no invulnerable save better than 4+ and no cover save could be better than 4+.

Yeah, I remember those months between the 3rd ed BBB and the release of the Dark Eldar Codex. They flew by, so it really feels like that period was NEVER.

It isn't so much that invulnerable saves are too common, or too good; 5++ saves are not reliable as your only defense, for example; but the units with 2++, or rerollable 2/3++ are very undercosted for their survivability.

Jetbiking 2/3++ rerollable unit with good shooting and meltabombs should be far more expensive then they are.

Likewise Riptides are too cheap for a T6, 2+/3++ multi-wound model that is also a jetpack.

The points values compared to other units in their own armies, or allies, are too good.

No one complains about the invulnerable save on warp stalkers or whatever those CSM jumppack guys are. Likewise the 5++ on war walkers.

Cover saves would be an issue if there were not an increasing number of ways to ignore or reduce them. Their cost isn't really a factor.

Invulns, buffs and rerolls however are not costed correctly, so some armies find them easy to stack onto uber units. This is especially obvious for Tau, Eldar and Inq, since they have dedicated buff units. Add in a few undercosted gems like Riptides and you get a deathstar.

GW really needs to get a handle on this now that every army can ally with everyone else. It is too easy to tailor and buff any unit you really would want to by choosing the lowest cost buff model.

It's the constant power creep that plagues this game.

Players always want better stuff on their codexes, so GW goes the way of adding better AP weapons at each new book update.

This in turn requires better invulnerable saves to balance the game again.

Now we are on the point where invulnerable saves are so over the top that D weapons are fit for a normal game, not only Apocalipse.

I'm quite disgusted on how the game works nowadays. Troops and their small weapons are utterly useless as a combat asset.

Their only role is to take objectives, when they should instead be responsible for 70-80% of the fighting as in any believable combat.

But the recent flood of high-toughness and top saves makes the bulk of any army - basic infantry - next to useless.