This was briefly mentioned in the post-Salute thread, but as it's going to be a new game I think it deserves it's own thread.

I'll update the OP when there is any additional news, here is what is known so far (from, I believe, the Hawk Wargames facebook page and a related GW Specialist Games group).

Thanks to reds8n for finding these quotes!

Andy Chambers wrote:I'm going to steal Marcelo's photo again to make a post-Salute announcement - I am indeed working with Hawk Wargames on a set of tabletop spaceship rules for the Dropzone Commander universe, provisionally titled Dropfleet.
I can't tell you how excited I am to have the opportunity to make another foray into spaceships as GW's now sadly discontinued Battlefleet Gothic remains one of my all-time favourite projects. It's a real privilege to be working with Dave, Simon and Louis at Hawk, they're passionate and dedicated hobbyists (see the 9' DZC scale model of the smallest ship in Dropfleet) so I think we'll be making this one a real doozy.

Andy Chambers wrote:Hey folks, I just wanted to announce that I'm working on a set of spaceship rules for the guys at Hawk Wargames - the Dropzone Commander people - provisionally title Dropfleet. I'd like to ask the group if there's any elements of BFG (or indeed any other spaceship rules like Firestorm Armada or Full Thrust) that you really, really like or really, really hate so that I can try to address them/obliterate them in Dropfleet. Just general fishing so I can steal your ideas really, but any thoughts you have on tabletop spaceships are of great interest to me.

Official confirmation from Hawk forums (thanks to Orlanth for bringing this to our attention):

http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4369&start=20

I could definitely get into this. Drop Zone Commander models are awesome looking and if they translate that aesthetic into excellent sci-fi battleships then they'll be golden!

I would poop my pants in excitement if this actually comes through. Just sayin.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I would poop my pants in excitement if this actually comes through. Just sayin.

Indeed, there shall be much poop in pants if this comes to fruition.

Yes, would definitely be interested in this. X Wing is a great dog fighting game, but the war gaming world needs a title where huge battleships line up and blast the bejeezus out of each other.

 Flashman wrote:
Yes, would definitely be interested in this. X Wing is a great dog fighting game, but the war gaming world needs a title where huge battleships line up and blast the bejeezus out of each other.

or at least a imperial ship game where it sets up for a planetary invasion game.

I love BFG so I'm interested in this game. However, I hope he makes it even better than BFG. It wasn't much fun fighting Necron fleets and the Eldar were not much easier to face.

It's really too bad that GW didn't keep BFG going. It is fun to play a campaign with both BFG and 40K as long as you don't lose whole armies in space before ever reaching the planets.

Hmmm. This is good news but thought AC was going to put out his 'Blood Red Skies' WW2 fighter game first.

privateer4hire wrote:
Hmmm. This is good news but thought AC was going to put out his 'Blood Red Skies' WW2 fighter game first.

I'm sure he had plenty of ideas GW said "pass, it's not space marine enough for us" to back in the day which just needed dusting off and tweaking to remove skulls and emperors from.

I'm in. Hard.

Love dropzone. Loved BFG.

Very interested to see more about this.

 Souleater wrote:
Love dropzone. Loved BFG.

Very interested to see more about this.

Absolutely! Will be interesting to see where they go from this - great big bio-ships for the Scourge, really smooth looking ships for the post-humans etc. .

Any news on when we might start to see more? Hawk Wargames did a wonderful job of drumming up hype for Dropzone Commander (showing a new sculpt each day etc.), lets hope they take a similar route with this.

Anybody want to start placing bets as to how compatible our BFG ships will be in this new system? I wouldn't be surprised if the gameplay is just similar enough to BFG to allow us to use most of our old ships.

Either way, really looking forward to this.

 Flashman wrote:
Yes, would definitely be interested in this. X Wing is a great dog fighting game, but the war gaming world needs a title where huge battleships line up and blast the bejeezus out of each other.

Isn't that what Firestorm Armada is?

I played a lot of BFG and even have lots of original space fleet ships, very interested in this!

If I had one suggestion for a change from Battlefleet Gothic, it would be to decouple heading from orientation. Let a ship burn on a heading of 000, then next turn rotate to 090 and fire its weapons while still drifting on the same heading.

This is going to be awesome!

I like the premise, but "Dropfleet" is a really dumb name. I hope they come up with another before launch.

Still, why would people invested in other space battles games like Firestorm Armada switch? Is Dropzone that much better a miniatures game than its counterparts?

Very exciting. DZC has great fluff and I am eager to see the games depicting it expand. I bet there is already a good amount of mind-blowing concept art on Mr. Lewis's desk! Oh to be a fly on that wall ...

Agreed that "Dropfleet" is not the right name.

 Breotan wrote:

Still, why would people invested in other space battles games like Firestorm Armada switch? Is Dropzone that much better a miniatures game than its counterparts?

It's a really nice little rules system - very fast and tactical. The miniatures are gorgeous as well, which I suppose bodes well for any other game Hawk Wargames will release.

That being said apparently Firestorm Armada 2.0 is an improvement over its predecessor in terms of rules. Will be interesting to see how this develops for sure..

 -Loki- wrote:

 Flashman wrote:
Yes, would definitely be interested in this. X Wing is a great dog fighting game, but the war gaming world needs a title where huge battleships line up and blast the bejeezus out of each other.

Isn't that what Firestorm Armada is?

And Starmada, Star Trek Battles, Starfire, Full Thrust, and several others.

This new game will have to bring something different and pretty special to the table.

Hmm, maybe it will just bring in cool miniatures and still people will buy it.

I am all for cool miniatures but again, there are plenty on the market already, both tied to specific games and more generic designs (I have a bunch of the Cold Navy models), so they will have to do something fairly special in that regard.

I guess the game is going to be the 'excuse' to get the miniatures out without just being "non-GW" models. Also, if the game could be combined with Dropzone Commander, I'm all up for it. It could be a great addition for campaigns.

Gosh...

I'm in for a huge PH(34)R invasion fleet, a small colonial UCM fleet and a medium size Shatarii fleet.


My wallet hates me already!

Maybe this system should go Japanese style?

銀河英雄伝説 Legend of the Galactic Heroes always has huge battles this would make a good tabletop spaceship game

Wow...those are actually some pretty cool models!

Really hope they can Kickstarter it and get some hard plastic sprues sorted... I like their stuff, but the resins are too pricy.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Really hope they can Kickstarter it and get some hard plastic sprues sorted... I like their stuff, but the resins are too pricy.

I wish Firestorm Armada would do that. Resin + metal keep me from picking it up.

I'm a huge BFG fan. If this uses an updated / streamlined take on those rules, with the quality of models Hawk have been releasing I'm all over this.
I like dropzone commander, the rules are ok but not really grabbed me as anything special, but I keep picking up models for it because there gorgeous and the quality is fantastic. The UCM have always given me a bit of a starship troopers fell so this feels like a natural next step go with the setting.
Any idea's on the timescale we're looking at here. Have they been working on this for a while or only just agreed to do it?

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Maybe this system should go Japanese style?

銀河英雄伝説 Legend of the Galactic Heroes always has huge battles this would make a good tabletop spaceship game

You could play it using Starmada rules.

The models shown are very large, though, and expensive.

Ideally ship models for tabletop games should be between one and two inches long, three max, if you want to get a largish fleet on to the table at realistic looking ranges. In my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Breotan wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Really hope they can Kickstarter it and get some hard plastic sprues sorted... I like their stuff, but the resins are too pricy.

I wish Firestorm Armada would do that. Resin + metal keep me from picking it up.

Plastic ship models, cheap enough to own large fleets, might be the unique selling point for this new game.

Obviously you can publish rules and models completely separately.

The model for mass battles is Jutland, which involved 250 ships, plus some zeppelins and sea planes. I think a scenario that large would probably have to be played on the floor.

I have a few of these, not the high end ones, the normal ones, the are all about one inch

I'd prefer resin ships, but a plastic starter set might be nice.

Sounds interesting, but agree that it needs a new name.

Makes me say "Drop Foot" instead, every time!

As long as I can build a battlestar galactica and its ragtag fleet. Would that be the resistance?

I've held out of getting into DZC, now this might be the breaking point, especially if it has plastic models.

Sounds interesting. I'm wanting to get a simple but good quality space fleet game to use with Rogue Trader, and if Chambers is involved, this could be just what I'm looking for now that BFG has been axed.

 Breotan wrote:
I like the premise, but "Dropfleet" is a really dumb name. I hope they come up with another before launch.

Still, why would people invested in other space battles games like Firestorm Armada switch? Is Dropzone that much better a miniatures game than its counterparts?

Fire storm is a good game but the models are not in the same league as hawk wargames minis

http://ttfix.blogspot.com/2014/04/hawk-wargames-salute-previews-and-new.html

At the bottom is an example of what we can expect from the game in terms of ship design.

Much pants pooping all around.

DZC posits a specific style of combat doctrine apparent in its name. I think it lends the product line the feeling of being an era. Just as sweeping tank advances help give the "sense" of WW2, the dropship focus of DZC promotes a certain tone.

Rather than being a generic space battle game, like BFG or Full Thrust or Firestorm Armada, a DZC spin off might similarly involve a more specific convention of warfare. Most of these games just assume some variation of naval battles and/or dogfighting. I'd like to see this one think a bit more about how fighting in space is not just like fighting on the ocean or among the clouds.

For example, rather than yet another game about ships shooting laser canons at other ships what if this game was all about boarding actions? Again, just trying to give an example of how this genre of game needs shaking up.

Your right, the focus needs to be new.

The focus of the game really does need to be about landing troops, or defending troops on the ground. Much like dropzone is about protecting your infantry while they accomplish your objectives, dropfleet needs to be about protecting your ground forces.

Its space. There's nothing out there. The distances are so vast, and the speeds so fast, the only time you really would ever engage in space warfare is if support of a landing.

For the work blocked and lazy.

That's an awesome looking mock up.

Goresaw wrote:
http://ttfix.blogspot.com/2014/04/hawk-wargames-salute-previews-and-new.html

At the bottom is an example of what we can expect from the game in terms of ship design.

Much pants pooping all around.

You forgot to mention the 40k scale "Collector's Edition". Start making that in plastic and I bet Hawk would make a lot of friends.

Goresaw wrote:
Its space. There's nothing out there. The distances are so vast, and the speeds so fast, the only time you really would ever engage in space warfare is if support of a landing.

Untrue. You might also engage simply to smash their stuff from orbit or destroy spaceborne assets, without a landing.

Read Honor Harrington by David Weber,

Fleet actions are generally about System defence ( infa structure) the logistics war.

The planetary invasion is after the system defence has failed.

Boarding actions are very rare more in the anti Pirate or scout ship ambush type of actions.


This still sounds very interesting, the possibilities are there.

 pongo50 wrote:
Read Honor Harrington by David Weber

Unhelpful, unless we can know that Mr. Lewis makes all the assumptions as Mr. Weber -- which would actually be the very problem I am pointing out.

Gotta say, as one of the few players of DZC in my area, I think a little more depth to the game universe cannot be bad and will draw more players in.

Now I want to see some of my PHR ships. :-)

http://www.hawkwargames.com/pages/about

I remember when this was announced at Salute 2012!

Looks like more progress!

 Manchu wrote:
DZC posits a specific style of combat doctrine apparent in its name. I think it lends the product line the feeling of being an era. Just as sweeping tank advances help give the "sense" of WW2, the dropship focus of DZC promotes a certain tone.

Rather than being a generic space battle game, like BFG or Full Thrust or Firestorm Armada, a DZC spin off might similarly involve a more specific convention of warfare. Most of these games just assume some variation of naval battles and/or dogfighting. I'd like to see this one think a bit more about how fighting in space is not just like fighting on the ocean or among the clouds.

For example, rather than yet another game about ships shooting laser canons at other ships what if this game was all about boarding actions? Again, just trying to give an example of how this genre of game needs shaking up.

Exactly what I am saying! It needs to bring something new to the table.

For instance the space manoeuvre of englobement is only the ancient Greek "periplous" rendered in 3D. Although it has charms, we've played that game.

A lot of the classic space games are 20 years old or more. They are good games, and the genre does not need a variation on a familiar theme.

It is exciting to see what will be brought forth.

 Medium of Death wrote:
For the worked blocked and lazy.

That's an awesome looking mock up.

I see similarities! GW lawyers getting ready!

Without rendering a legal opinion, I will say that "GW lawyers" are a lot less scary now than they were a few years ago...

Isn't Dropzone Commander like Epic-scale? Now all that's needed is a company/platoon-level game and a squad-level skirmish game (possibly with some RPG-esque optional elements)

 Medium of Death wrote:
For the worked blocked and lazy.

That's an awesome looking mock up.

That's the garden being concreted over so I have a board.

Cheers

Andrew

Let's not pull a Spartan Games where they release new games before they figure out how to make their current games balanced and fun.

This is just in the pipeline, and I think was always planned (someone pointed to 2012?). It's a natural outgrowth from DzC. I think they will complement one another wonderfully if they do it well, personally

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
DZC posits a specific style of combat doctrine apparent in its name. I think it lends the product line the feeling of being an era. Just as sweeping tank advances help give the "sense" of WW2, the dropship focus of DZC promotes a certain tone.

Rather than being a generic space battle game, like BFG or Full Thrust or Firestorm Armada, a DZC spin off might similarly involve a more specific convention of warfare. Most of these games just assume some variation of naval battles and/or dogfighting. I'd like to see this one think a bit more about how fighting in space is not just like fighting on the ocean or among the clouds.

For example, rather than yet another game about ships shooting laser canons at other ships what if this game was all about boarding actions? Again, just trying to give an example of how this genre of game needs shaking up.

Exactly what I am saying! It needs to bring something new to the table.

For instance the space manoeuvre of englobement is only the ancient Greek "periplous" rendered in 3D. Although it has charms, we've played that game.

A lot of the classic space games are 20 years old or more. They are good games, and the genre does not need a variation on a familiar theme.

It is exciting to see what will be brought forth.

Couldn't agree more. It would be great to have a space game that feels like it could be taking place in the future, rather than broadsides (BFG, Firestorm armada) or WW2 (or WW1?!) style dogfighting (X-Wing). Of course, creating mechanics that can introduce that feel while maintaining a useful tactical input from the player is going to be a challenge. For someone who can make a ruleset like Starship Troopers though, I'm hopeful!

I'd lie extendable flight stands to give an at least somewhat 3D feel to the game

 Vertrucio wrote:
Let's not pull a Spartan Games where they release new games before they figure out how to make their current games balanced and fun.

Except DZC is tactical, balanced and fun since day one and seems to keep its focus very well - spartan's 21zillion factions per game aren't something HWG will quickly stumble into.
Also, they seem to actually plan ahead

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'd lie extendable flight stands to give an at least somewhat 3D feel to the game

Or you could play a pc game, it makes a board game incredible complex, a good concept of inertia would be nice.

There are several space games that use realistic inertial movement (Newtonian physics), for instance Mayday (1977) and Saganami Island Tactical Simulator (2005). There are space and aerial flight games that use extendible stands to give 3D movement. These factors do make the game more complicated.

I vaguely remember a ruleset that offers a compromise between Newtonian movement and simplicity, possibly optional rules in Starmada.

 Bolognesus wrote:

 Vertrucio wrote:
Let's not pull a Spartan Games where they release new games before they figure out how to make their current games balanced and fun.

Except DZC is tactical, balanced and fun since day one and seems to keep its focus very well - spartan's 21zillion factions per game aren't something HWG will quickly stumble into.
Also, they seem to actually pluan ahead

Agreed dzc is very ballenced and tons of fun and hawk do listen to the players

BTW a good resource for space games is the Star Ranger site...

http://www.star-ranger.com/

The owner has stopped updating but there is a huge amount of info there including many rulesets and lines of ship models.

The vector movement rules from Full Thrust were nice and simple while still getting the feel of space movement across.

You had velocity, facing and heading.. to slow down you had to turn into your heading.

Whenever you moved your ship you extended a tape measure between your start and finish points and that angle became your new heading, the distance became your new velocity.

Then, at the start of a ship's move, it had to first move at a number of inches equal to its velocity, at the angle of its heading before doing its own moves with its engine...then after that a new velocity/heading was worked out.

It was extremely easy, you just place a matchstick to represent the heading and make a note of the new velocity.

Best real-feel physics space combat game I've played... it did need *huge* tables, though!

3d is workable too, although 3d vector movement would be a bit of a nightmare. And choosing between the two I'd rather have 2d and vector movement since it just has a nice feel to it.

 scarletsquig wrote:
The vector movement rules from Full Thrust were nice and simple while still getting the feel of space movement across.

Ah, cool. I'd heard of Full Thrust of course, but that was the limit of my knowledge.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0159/4298/files/HWG_Newsletter_salute_2014.pdf?1550

latest newsletter

Very interesting, like the sound of that 'invasion of New Eden' campaign.

And I know this one in particular is for DZC, but some of the artwork these guys use is great

I like the look of those Resistance Dropships and Tanks. Never really liked the look of the ramshackle stuff. It's good to see that you'll be able to create a somewhat militaristic looking resistance force.

As usual with me, I am grumpy that they chose 10mm for Dropzone Commander, rather than the 15mm I already have lots, or 6mm which is also widely available. No doubt the rules can easily be adapted, though.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Really hope they can Kickstarter it and get some hard plastic sprues sorted... I like their stuff, but the resins are too pricy.

YES! If they bring out a plastic starter set (at least), they will immediately put themselves ahead of Firestorm Armada, Full Thrust, et. al..

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Really hope they can Kickstarter it and get some hard plastic sprues sorted... I like their stuff, but the resins are too pricy.

YES! If they bring out a plastic starter set (at least), they will immediately put themselves ahead of Firestorm Armada, Full Thrust, et. al..

They have a plastic starter set and it's FANTASTIC. Two factions with enough to play the game right out of the box, including more than adequate cardstock terrain. But they've only done plastics for those two factions (and only a limited selection of their units of course). Plastic starter sets for the other two factions are really needed.

3D is not important to me. I think BFG explained it away well enough by stating that, when the engagement distance are measured in the hundreds of miles, the Z axis becomes a bit irrelevant.

I also liked how BFG handled movement as you had to move forward a minimum distance before you could turn. Meant you had to always be thinking at least one turn ahead.

But a lot will depend on what kind of theme they will for: slow and lumbering giants of space, or fast and nimble?

 AlexHolker wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
The vector movement rules from Full Thrust were nice and simple while still getting the feel of space movement across.

Ah, cool. I'd heard of Full Thrust of course, but that was the limit of my knowledge.

Alex: http://www.groundzerogames.co.uk/downloads/FullThrust.pdf
and a lighter version of FT:
http://www.groundzerogames.co.uk/downloads/FT0916_UK.pdf

Back to DZC in Space, I'm curious to see and hear more.
DZC is the next game on my list because everything I've seen from models, to gameplay to interviews with Hawk conveys a solid, well thought-out game.
Here's hoping Hawk and AC take their time and produce a similar, well thought-out fleet action game.

I'm not sure why they would change the name away from "Dropzone" that should be the part they keep. Perhaps just Dropzone: Invasion based on the fact that reading through the bios of the current factions seem to indicate that the scourge are geared toward planetary invasion and seem to be the "big bad" of that setting.

I'm just wondering if they will have an attacker and defender based system.

I'll be watching this one. I've always wanted to get into the game, and if they add space combat that might be the thing to finally break me down.

I can see the sense in a boxed starter set with a couple of plastic fleets included.

For myself, I'm not that fussed about the materials the ship models are cast in. Few space games are ever likely to sell the volumes that make it worthwhile to produce polystyrene models.

Metal is perfectly acceptable up to a certain size, when it gets too heavy (a couple of inches long, maybe...). Resin is a good material for weight, casts in similar moulds to metal, and has the same utility for low volume manufacturing. The Cold Navy models were initially cast in metal, which all my examples are, then when Ravenstar took over the line, they changed to resin.

As for expense, models generally cost from £2 to £10 depending on size and elaboration. You wouldn't want a large fleet of big expensive models for tabletop games, because there is a sensible limit to the space and time available for games. If you don't want "official" models, there are quite a lot of nice generic fleets on sale.

Polystyrene makes more sense if the models are very large.

2 to 10 pounds would be amazing. Around here, it costs $20 just to look in the Firestorm Armada blister.

That is because the game publisher also sells the "official" models. BFG is another example.

To be fair, the ship models are large and detailed, and you need don't need so many of them.

In contrast, you can get a 41 ship fleet pack of Terran Diplomatic Corps from ZandrisIV Miniatures for £72.50. A lot of people will look at them and complain, "They are metal", "They don't have enough detail", and so on, but there you are, a large fleet for under £2 per model, with a unified design aesthetic, which can be used for any "naval" style space game rules.

That is a brilliant deal. I could sell 3 or 4 Dauntless Light Cruisers to cover it If I didn't already have about 6 years of painting queued up I'd be all over it. Also, "Eloquent Diplomacy Fleet", superb name.

I'd never heard of z4, great link, thanks

I got it from Star Ranger's Starship Combat News.

http://www.star-ranger.com/

The site is getting a bit out of date, but it is still an excellent resource for space games.

Actually, having looked at the models in more detail, and having dug out my old copy of '21st Century Foss', and having considered I could use them in BFG, or this new ruleset, or for FA, and get a space mat which I could also use in X-Wing ...

Damn this hobby.

Those Zandris IV miniatures are not even subtle about their "borrowing":

Their Imperial ships are based off the Imperial battleship and cruiser from "Legend of the Galactic Heroes".
Just compare their ships, down to the detailing to
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Imperial_battleship_(788_UC_era)
http://gineipaedia.com/wiki/Imperial_cruiser_(788_UC_era)

Their blockish Diplomat and Negotiator ships (and several more like them) are Homeworld-series based and are even in Taiidan yellow and red colors.

All of whom should be paying Chris Foss royalties

Talking of the Legend of Galactic Heroes, I dug around on HLJ a bit and found the following kits:

http://www.hlj.com/scripts/hljlist?Word=Heldensagen&DisplayMode=grid&Dis=2&Sort=std&qid=SQMULPWH62WA&set=1&q=1&Scale2=12000

These are 1/12000 scale which means they should measure about one to two+ inches long. They come ready painted and require minor assembly in some cases. Material is ABS plastic.

Most of the boxes contain 8-10 ships. 6,400 Yen is 45 Euros which is about £40, though of course there is also postage and possibly customs duties.

Someone with £300 to splurge could get themselves several very nice space fleets very quickly and easily. I am extremely tempted, but cannot afford the money ATM. (Not to mention that my Cold Navy fleets aren't finished yet...)

Back on topic: the artwork feel a bit generic to me. Kinda that style we see all computer games have. Was hoping for something with a bit more of its own identity, stylewise.

I think this sounds wonderful. I bought a bunch of old WW2 ships for a naval game but never got the rules down, I was 17 and didn't have all the patience I needed.

I wanted to get into BFG but it deep six'd before I could get in.

Projected release date?

I don't think there has been any mention yet. From the OP it sounds like Andy Chambers is still writing the rules, so I probably wouldn't expect it this side of Xmas in all probability.

In the meantime I would pick up the new Firestorm Armada starter set if you want a space combat game. Nice miniatures, reasonably priced and a lot of people have been raving about the update to the rules with the V2 edition.

I did pick up a firestorm armada ship, but it was to use as a crashed ship / terrain (anticipating this new game will use terrain). Also ordered a Deep Cut Studios space mat. Yes, I know I'm jumping the gun a bit but given that I'm already really into DzC, and have been craving a BFG type game, this is perfect for me.

One note regarding ships- the Firestorm Aramada ships are huge! I can't imagine the DzC ships being anywhere near the size of the largest Firestorm Armada ones. I don't see that as a positive or negative, just something to note.

Apparently this game has been in the works for a little while, but it is definitely still being worked on so I agree that I wouldn't expect it this year (although I do hope to see more info about it released, of course).

BoW mentions this on their weekender http://www.beastsofwar.com/the-weekender/weekender-return-salute/ (32:00 to 34:00 approx.)


The drop ship from salute is meant to come in at about an 1.5 inches (based on their 'it's this big') with other stuff going up to 12 inches plus

12"+ would be ridiculous. But I do look forward to seeing what we get for this. I'm picking up a few PHR models for counts-as in Epic so being able to use them for Dropzone and combined space games would be cool.

How large are Firestorm Armada ship models?

A Dindrenzi Praetorian battleship from the 2 player starter is 6 inches long, corresponding Terran is 5.5 inches long

I was gonna say the larger ships are around 6". Which is still pretty huge but 12" would be crazy!

It might end up being fisherman syndrome (and it was 'this' big, holds hands wide apart) as they never actually say the sizes, just show them

but that's what the video suggests

Ugh, not sure I want giant ships. The FA ships seem a bit much already.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Ugh, not sure I want giant ships. The FA ships seem a bit much already.

I agree, BFG Big size ships were already on the limit, and casting quality has increased so more detail on smaller ships is possible

I found BFG to be ther perfect size in terms of assembly, painting and handling. Especially if they're plastic.



If it's smaller ships you want, check these out.

Well, remember Orlando posted that the ship shown at Salute would only be 1.5 inches long (although it is supposed to be the smallest "capital ship" for UCM, I believe). Still, the 12 inches could just be a one-off item or Beasts of War exaggerating, etc.

If the models for the normal DzC game are any indication, I Really doubt these will be oversized. Yes, there are a few massive models in the DzC line now, but most are small or medium sized (maybe too much so). Even some of the larger models can be very "delicate" in some ways (like the Shaltari dropships).

So, I'm not worried about a giant hunk of resin, personally! They also charge a bit more than their competition and if they made ships the same size on average as Firestorm Armada, the price comparison would not go favorably for Hawk Wargames. I'm expecting smaller average ships than Firestorm Armada... maybe even significantly so.

If everyone wants truly sci-fi ship combat, they should freak out and go hard-core and not only have Newtonian Movement, but also have relativistic time-frames on their combat! Now that would be a brain hemorrhage, lol.

Ok. My fleet is 15 light-minutes distant. So my opponents ships are actually just appearing where they were 15 minutes ago. So after running some computed predictions I fire my weapons, and in 30 minutes (15 out, 15 back) my cameras will be seeing if the munitions hit where I predicted the targets would be, and then I can adjust accordingly................

Unfortunately most of that time I could not see if they have fired at me from where they "really" are until that visual light gets to me......

Urk. *drops dead*

 AegisGrimm wrote:
If everyone wants truly sci-fi ship combat, they should freak out and go hard-core and not only have Newtonian Movement, but also have relativistic time-frames on their combat! Now that would be a brain hemorrhage, lol.

Ok. My fleet is 15 light-minutes distant. So my opponents ships are actually just appearing where they were 15 minutes ago. So after running some computed predictions I fire my weapons, and in 30 minutes (15 out, 15 back) my cameras will be seeing if the munitions hit where I predicted the targets would be, and then I can adjust accordingly................

Unfortunately most of that time I could not see if they have fired at me from where they "really" are until that visual light gets to me......

Urk. *drops dead*

Actually, I've got an idea how you could implement such a ruleset in an easy to manage manner.

^ I actually have played a home-brew set of rules based on C.J. Cherryh's Company Wars where exactly what you're describing is used.. the opponent doesn't see the actual positions of the ships until the light/em waves reach them, it's quite an interesting mechanic that allows FTL movement to pull off some interesting surprise attacks.

Culture novels hand-wave that aspect away by stating that skids across inter-universe energy field can be detected, but still allow for subterfuge with a ship being able to pretend it is somewhere that it isn't.

Would love to see that universe depicted on the tabletop somehow, entire battles conducted in milliseconds at distances of light years. Annihilating solar systems is considered something ridiculously easy that any rusty old demilitarised tug can do.

Plus, naming the ships alone would be heaps of fun.

I have to admit though that I am a big fan of the "Lost Fleet" series by Jack Campbell.

Where you jump into a system, see an enormous fleet where it was several hours ago, and as a commander you know you're going to be in a big battle in three day's time. Or where you know that after maneuvering to engage, you are going to have a three-second fight in about three hours time as each fleet passes the other at one-tenth the speed of light.

So....take a nap?

@AegisGrimm

I enjoy the combat in the "Lost Fleet" series too.

@Thread

Still want more info!!!

Yes. More info about cool space game that will have awesome resin ships, if DZC is a measurement.

At this stage they are still evaluating ideas for possible features, so for instance if you particularly want to see lightspeed information restriction involved, you should send in your requests to Hawk Games.

A "The Culture" style of game could be cool, but it doesn't fit the Dropship background.

I've been thinking about ideas myself, but I haven't got farther than working out some basic principles about game factors.

I do think there is a gap in the market for a game like Star Fleet Battles, with powerful, fast-moving, flexible ships fighting a highly manoeuvrable kind of combat. You might say we already have SFB for that, but it's very complicated and hard to play with more than a few ships per side. I would like to see Andy Chambers work out an elegant system to make such a game faster to play.

Woo, I registered just to talk about this game...

I am quite interested in a new and high quality space combat game and Dropzone commander's miniature production seems very good for that. At the same time, I agree with those who are looking for something different from Battleship Gothic (and perhaps Firestorm Armada?).

It seems to me that the current flavor of large spaceship games has too strong of a broadside battleship vibe. The emphasis seems to be on slow maneuvering to unleash fixed batteries against hostile warships.

Instead of making another refinement of the BFG base, I'd be very interested if Andy Chambers / Hawk Wargames moved towards something which felt more modern. Instead of broadsides, how about a focus on 'combat systems' and long range fast missile barrages combined with short range gun batteries?

One idea I've been thinking about is this: Heavy ships could have Alpha Strike tokens, which are expended to deliver a powerful long range punch, think a limited magazine of VLS tubes. Then a gameplay would shift from aligning batters to maneuvering to deliver or avoid powerful missile strikes. Here, light vessels serve to screen the heavier warships against missile boats or try to dart ahead themselves to clear the way for a powerful strike.

More generally, it'd be nice if a significant fraction of the gameplay revolved around something other than Fleet Battles.

Thanks for registering, DrRansom, and those are some cool ideas! I'm going to email them and point them to this thread, maybe they'll give us more of a tease (or at least see how popular the idea of this game is!)

RiTides, you're welcome.

I thought of a better way of describing what I'd like to see: Kirov / Slava style battlecruisers, escorted by missile ships, after Type 42 destroyers, fighting each other. Lighter ships, like light missile boats or heavy Sovrenemmy destroyers dart ahead to clear the way. Add some moderate carrier combat with minimal missile armament on attack aircraft and spinal mount weapons.

This might produce a decisive shift from past space games, instead of following after BFG.

In Starfire II or III, "capital ship" missiles were introduced, which gave a long range firing capability, something like what you describe.

Over the decades, Starfire has suffered massive rules bloat, so a new game that returns to the simpler roots would be welcome.

Well, count me in. I don't play Dropzone Commander (yet), but I loved the hell out of BFG and especially Andy's willingness to come on our mailing list and talk about it, answer questions, let people playtest rules... So I'm excited to see what he does next.

GW dropping BFG was a huge mistake, IMO. I know of plenty of people who love BFG and lots of people who talk about how they'd love to play it, but they can't because it's OOP now. It was a pretty fun game overall. Sure, the Necrons needed to be fixed, but overall it was good. I loved the torpedo rules, I'd take torpedo-carrying destroyers (Cobras, woot) and cruisers and just use spreads of torpedoes to funnel my opponents where I wanted them to go.


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DrRansom wrote:
It seems to me that the current flavor of large spaceship games has too strong of a broadside battleship vibe. The emphasis seems to be on slow maneuvering to unleash fixed batteries against hostile warships.

One of the things that always got me about the Star Destroyers in Star Wars is how perfectly they're designed for space combat. Sure, they're vulnerable in the rear, but their design means they can bring a lot of their guns to bear forward, to either side, above, and below the ship, especially the VSD, ISD, and, to a lesser extent, SSD (the SSDs did have a slightly less effective design, but I guess it doesn't matter when you're a five-mile-long ship with hundreds of guns carrying a ridiculous number of attack craft).

I don't know if Lucas was considering that when he made them, but they are seriously a great design.

I was looking for it earlier, but couldn't find it, we still talking next spring or fall?

I'm really excited for news on this. I have been very tempted by firestorm armada but I will hold off for more info on this game.

Josey- there hasn't been a lot of news on timeline. I personally am not expecting it to hit until sometime in 2015, although hopefully we'll get a lot more teasers as this year progresses!

I'm deffo interested in this, would love to see the aesthetic of the PHR ships

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In Starfire II or III, "capital ship" missiles were introduced, which gave a long range firing capability, something like what you describe.

Over the decades, Starfire has suffered massive rules bloat, so a new game that returns to the simpler roots would be welcome.

It was Starfire III, when David Weber started writing for them. You can see the Starfire influence on his Honorverse series, although it gets more elaborate that it did in Starfire.

As for the missile range race in Starfire, Starfire III introduced the capital ship missile, and if IIRC, the current edition of the empire building rules introduce the triple ranged SBM (strategic bombardment missile). Not that accurate compared to the earlier generation missiles, but if your fleet has them and the enemy doesn't, you can bleed them risk-free as they try to force an engagement within their range envelope. Currently David Weber is doing the same thing in the Honorverse series with longer and longer ranged missiles. And of course he's introduced carrier warfare as well.

Re: Starfire rules creep: Full agreement. The original designer's intent was to have a sci-fi fleet battle game that could be played on one's lunch break. David Weber joining them gave the game a good shake-up and added a strategic level. But rules became complex and "busy". Have fond memories of the system, and was given the most recent David Weber version of the rules as a gift, but damn, the game drags now!

@DrRansom: You've brought up good points. Yes, this proposed Hawk Wargames fleet battle game needs to break away from the current cliche of "Age of Sail" ships in space (fixed broadside batteries, crossing the "T").

While I'm mostly interested in DzC at the moment, I'm hoping that one can combined the planetary rules with the space rules for a complete planetary invasion. Engage the enemy, get control of the orbitals, then drop troops and material to take the real estate. Probably have to play it in stages, but it would be quite the gaming experience!

A plastic kickstarter or preorder set would be guaranteed sales in my club.

I will always adore 2nd edition star fire. So clean, so cool, so many possibilities. I agree that the later version is a monstrosity. It is pretty cool that David Webber was involved in the game - I didn't realize it. Sherri S. Tepper also seems to have written some of her books under the Starfire influence I think.

So yeah, I want small ships, clean rules and some interesting "Hard Sci Fi" elements. This a universe with cherry picker turrets for crying out loud!

David Webber wrote the Star Fire III: Empires rulebook, which is the strategic campaign system.

I dug out and re-read my original Star Fire books recently. The rules still stand up as a really good playable game that has only a few minor niggles (largely corrected in 2nd edition, I believe.)

 Lobukia wrote:
A plastic kickstarter or preorder set would be guaranteed sales in my club.

Hawk don't do Kickstarters, so probably resin and metal. /:

I would be playing DZC right now if only they had more sprues out for it.

They could raise the money for a complete hard plastic range in an instant on KS, $1m+ easy for a well-supported existing game with brilliant rules and sculpts that are already 100% done, painted and looking great.

And with sprues already on the market to see that the quality of tooling is there too in that material.

From there it would just be a matter of making the digital renders suitable for tooling, which is again, something which they have experience with.

That's the problem of being effectively just one person doing everything.

 scarletsquig wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
A plastic kickstarter or preorder set would be guaranteed sales in my club.

Hawk don't do Kickstarters, so probably resin and metal. /:

I would be playing DZC right now if only they had more sprues out for it.

They could raise the money for a complete hard plastic range in an instant on KS, $1m+ easy for a well-supported existing game with brilliant rules and sculpts that are already 100% done, painted and looking great.

And with sprues already on the market to see that the quality of tooling is there too in that material.

From there it would just be a matter of making the digital renders suitable for tooling, which is again, something which they have experience with.

Again, I have to agree. DZC would have a much bigger following around my area if not for the material and generally high expense. I know of many folk who want to play the game, and appreciate the models, but getting tipped into the "no" column because of the investment.

A plastic game, right out of the gates, filling this niche in our hobby, on Kickstarter, with the names involved... would easily bring in a million bucks plus. I know my group and I would easily account for a few thousand of that.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Hawk don't do Kickstarters, so probably resin and metal. /:

I would be playing DZC right now if only they had more sprues out for it.

While admittedly my experience is limited only to the couple of blisters I've assembled, their resin is *very* easy to clean up and has alot less cleanup needed than you'd be used to with the Mantic resin and PVC offerings in case that is what is discouraging you.


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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Again, I have to agree. DZC would have a much bigger following around my area if not for the material and generally high expense. I know of many folk who want to play the game, and appreciate the models, but getting tipped into the "no" column because of the investment.

A plastic game, right out of the gates, filling this niche in our hobby, on Kickstarter, with the names involved... would easily bring in a million bucks plus. I know my group and I would easily account for a few thousand of that.

I can't speak for anyone else but what is stopping me is that I only like the look of a single faction (UCM). If they had another faction that I visually was drawn too then I'd at least buy the starter, sell the scourge, and get that second faction. I'm not a fan of the upcoming (or did they already arrive) rebels so I'll have to wait and see for the next one or even this spaceship game.

If the rules are good you can use one of the many excellent ranges of spaceship models on the market instead.

True.. although my comment was about the DZC air/ground minis as we haven't seen the ships yet. I like UCM overall and I like the NON-ground PHR stuff so I may end up liking the PHR ships as well. Their walkers just don't do anything for me though.

Anyone else concerned that Hawk Wargames might be stretching themselves too thin?

DZC is in a weird position right now and could use a lot more support and marketing pushes. The expansion book is nowhere to be seen either.

But instead, they're jumping to an entirely new game. That might bring about another rush of miniature buying, but I fear they're going the route of Spartan Games, where they're all too quick to abandon past games, and take on yet more projects. Admittedly, HG only has DZC, where SG has what, 5 games now?

If HG put this fleet game out, I can see it having a brief flash in the pan from initial sales, but then getting stale as HG is too stretched to support both DZC and DFC.

Did the rebels they previewed at gencon last year come out?

I believe the supplement and new faction are due in August.

If they come out with Dropfleet Commander - would someone open a new thread?

It will definitely deserve a new thread at that point- right now, it's just hints and rumors, though!

Do we have any news about this one?

 pongo50 wrote:
Read Honor Harrington by David Weber,

Fleet actions are generally about System defence ( infa structure) the logistics war.

The planetary invasion is after the system defence has failed.

Boarding actions are very rare more in the anti Pirate or scout ship ambush type

Of course, this is in an universe where spaceships fight in the style of Age of Sail wooden ships, minus the boarding actions (and minus the dureability and ease of escape that led to decicive fleet actions being a rare bird in the 18th and early 19th century). So YMMV...;-)

I'm curiously waiting for more news as well -