I'm not a very competitive person by nature, and I'm much more interested in modeling and painting, and the 40k mythology (I refuse to say fluff, it sounds pejorative) than the gaming. However, I am also a very social person, and I've come to realise that gaming adds a social aspect to the game. It lets me meet with like minded people, talk about the models and stories I love, and show off my models. Whenever I take my models into the shop, people come to see what I have today, and they are even impressed by my unpainted stuff.
However, I have come across a problem. Maybe I'm just not very good at the game, or maybe I just have a bad list, but most of my army is dead by my opponent's second shooting phase, and those models I worked tirelessly on for hours each, even the infantry, have to go back in the box after only a few minutes. I want to be able to give them the visibility they deserve, and they look incredible on a battlefield, facing down the enemy, and I think it's such a shame.
I would suggest not playing 40k. It's a game where everything dies quickly (other than a few game-breaking balance mistakes), whether in shooting or assault. If you can't handle taking entire units off the table every turn you should probably just pick a different game to play.
Well, looking at your title I'd say your a chaos player and from your sig a khorne fan? Personally as a guard player I experience this alot and I've come to terms with it. On the other hand to avoid getting table I use the tactic of target saturation, your opponent can only kill so many guys per turn. I know chaos can field hoards of zombies and those notoriously hard to kill nurgle bikers but other than that I not very well versed in the ways of traitors.
If your playing a "canon" list know that most times you will be at a disadvantage and in some metas defeat will be unavoidable if you refuse to change up the list. I feel your pain as like to mostly convert and paint and play really only for the social aspect and to see my troops on the battlefield as well, but thats the way it is unfortunately.
Well then I guess you're just going to be disappointed. Hoping for a positive response doesn't mean that one exists. Would you prefer that we lie to you and tell you everything is going to be ok, so that you can play a few more disappointing games before you quit?
Wow I'm really starting to realise that there are a lot of jerks on this forum. If you have nothing constructive to say, why bother posting at all?
It's hard to give meaningful advice without knowing what list you run and what your enemies are.
Make sure you try to think about the rest of the game when you make a move.
For example if you move your guardsmen over there to take that objective will that enemy tactical squad be in range next turn and would it work to your advantage if they stood there trying to scrape them out of cover for a turn or two while the rest of your army moves to assist.
I have a friend whos army could table mine quite easily in the right circumstances. But I realised he can be distracted by a well positioned sacrificial unit or two. Of course that might not always work but don't underestimate the psychological part of the game. A weak unit can be used as a speed bump or a powerful unit can distract an opponent and force them to move against it.
As I mentioned earlier it's hard to give you advice without knowing more but if you play an army with lots of cheap infantry look at things like tarpitting and screening. For more elite armies it's more about proper target selection and positioning I think.
calamarialldayerrday wrote: I'm not a very competitive person by nature, and I'm much more interested in modeling and painting, and the 40k mythology (I refuse to say fluff, it sounds pejorative) than the gaming. However, I am also a very social person, and I've come to realise that gaming adds a social aspect to the game. It lets me meet with like minded people, talk about the models and stories I love, and show off my models. Whenever I take my models into the shop, people come to see what I have today, and they are even impressed by my unpainted stuff.
However, I have come across a problem. Maybe I'm just not very good at the game, or maybe I just have a bad list, but most of my army is dead by my opponent's second shooting phase, and those models I worked tirelessly on for hours each, even the infantry, have to go back in the box after only a few minutes. I want to be able to give them the visibility they deserve, and they look incredible on a battlefield, facing down the enemy, and I think it's such a shame.
How do I deal with this?
Depends on many things. One, what is your meta like? Is there commonly multiple riptides, waveserpentspam, and screamerstars (having these manta rays that fly with weird daemons riding discs)? Or is it perhaps a hodge podge with few fliers and a very diverse number of armies. In short, does your meta lean more towards casual or competitive? That's one way to consider it.
The next problem, as others have mentioned, is that we don't really know exactly what you are playing. From your images and the sorts, it's probably CSM and probably khorne in particular... so quite a couple of berzerkers? You'll have to elaborate on that but here comes the most important part.
You'll have to accept models will leave. I have a friend that plays Tau. He's a great person but he put too much care into his models and losing a single one crushes him even whilst he tables you he'll be gloomy having lost 1/4th of his army. Don't do that, it's not fun for you or your enemy. You can't expect a game where your models will last on the battlefield. That said, we can see how we can try to make them last although be warned, depending on your responses, there might not be a satisfying answer.
Also, for a silly answer... if you like the lore of the world. Why not create your own? Be it your own warband, waaagh, or simply a subset of a greater army (a certain company of marines etc). Make up a story for them, provide a narrative. If they die, that doesn't necessarily mean they die for good. Perhaps they had to retreat? Maybe they are lying on the ground and will either evade death or be carried away to safety. If you really like the lroe side, it's an entertaining enough way to look at it.
Tactical...well, you need to post list, but dying after 2nd turn of shooting seems weird. Do you use LOS blocking terrain? Also, keep something in reserves. Of course, thats just what came to my mind. If you are facing truly fluffy list like cavalry IG against Taudar or just Riptide spam, there is simply too big difference...and you should talk to your opponent maybe make slight changes so both of you can enjoy the game (I dont believe you or him enjoy it at all).
And mindset...well, when I play some more fluffy list and face something that crush me... I focus on surviving as long as possible and for example destroying some units - and thats important - putting a lot of narrative into the game. OK, my IG is weak against Seerstar, but who cares? My brave Captain Cesmina made heroic grav chute drop into the rear of bikes, flamed them and then made suicidal charge with his chainsword and Emperors name on the lips! Eldrar is killing my guardsmen 5 a turn, but commisar McBride with power sword went to challenge and held off mighty Eldar for whole three turns! Hero of Imperium!
Well, even losing can be fun a lot of fun. Of course, if your opponent just wants to mechanicaly roll dices and dont invest into game anything else, it sucks.
The current state of the game is very unfavourable to the unprepared and a 'bad' list will get demolished fairly rapidly. The worst place to be right now is either a MEQ or assault-infantry, and judging by your signature you just might be both.
This is not your fault as a bad player, it's just that the whole game is stacked around destroying you regardless of defenses (And so Marines suffer) and typically doing so with a gun (And so assault suffers). By playing Assault-Marines, you've basically chosen the single worst combination in the current game.
It's not unbeatable, but you might need a radically different approach to the army. Melee power is worthless if you do not have the speed to connect. A good Khorne-based army does not use Berzerkers, or Rhinos, or Terminators. It uses Spawn, Flesh Hounds and Juggernauts, because they have the speed and resilience to actually apply their hitting power.
What is a typical army list for you?
EDIT: As an idea of how your list should be looking:
The Good!
Lord on Juggernaut, Cultists (Unmarked), Spawn, Heldrakes, Bikers, Maulerfiends, Obliterators, Flesh Hounds
The Bad!
Terminators, Mutilators, Possessed, Berzerkers, Warp Talons, Bloodletters, Bloodcrushers
Share something about your army and whats going wrong. The answer is the same no matter what though - you are going to have to take things a little bit more competitively. As in, put a bit more towards winning. It's noble that you don't care about it at all, but at the same time, some optimization towards your lists will help increase their lifespan on their board. The best defense is a good offense as they say, and being able to smack down some hard hitting bad guys will give your guys longer lifespan to look pretty.
Besides, if you are getting just about tabled turn 2, it sounds like your opponents don't have the same outlook to winning games that you do (even if they say they do!), and you can at least compete at their level without being TFG in any way whatsoever.
Please, share a list that you play with, a list or two that you play against (roughly is fine), and your list of models to work with, and people will be able to help you out !
SHUPPET wrote: Ignore Peregrine, its usually negative from him
Share something about your army and whats going wrong. The answer is the same no matter what though - you are going to have to take things a little bit more competitively. As in, put a bit more towards winning. It's noble that you don't care about it at all, but at the same time, some optimization towards your lists will help increase their lifespan on their board. The best defense is a good offense as they say, and being able to smack down some hard hitting bad guys will give your guys longer lifespan to look pretty.
Besides, if you are getting just about tabled turn 2, it sounds like your opponents don't have the same outlook to winning games that you do (even if they say they do!), and you can at least compete at their level without being TFG in any way whatsoever.
Please, share a list that you play with, a list or two that you play against (roughly is fine), and your list of models to work with, and people will be able to help you out !
Woops entirely missed the turn 2. Yeah, at that point you might want to look for other players. Really would love to know your army, your general list, and the meta. Analyze what's usually deployed preferably.
Well then I guess you're just going to be disappointed. Hoping for a positive response doesn't mean that one exists. Would you prefer that we lie to you and tell you everything is going to be ok, so that you can play a few more disappointing games before you quit?
There's no need to be a dick about it dude. We're all here to have fun, what's the point telling someone else they should just quit?
What list do you have?
As others have guessed, I am a Khorne fan. I think they fit perfectly within the game, more than any other faction. They unashamedly are all about destruction and spilled blood. They don't hide behind excuses, or even other tendencies like the followers of the other gods. My guys in particular have their own story, which isn't much different from your standard Traitor Marines, they were betrayed by the Imperium, and turned the only way they could, to the terrors of the Warp. With nowhere to run, they turned to Khorne, who promised them the power to bring their backstabbers to their knees. He promised the death of the false God Emperor. He promised that the staleness of the Imperium would finally be eradicated, that when enough blood was spilled, the galaxy would thrive again, that the Imperium was all that stood between them and the freedom they desired. My marines are tragic heroes, they were the ones forced out of the Imperium for not having the blind faith in the Emperor that the others did, for not wanting to slay their brothers for heresy when in fact they had just done what they had to do. Their tragedy is that they exchanged dying in vain for one god for dying in vain for another. They know this, but they know they cannot go back, it has come to far, and they know that at its heart, their mission is a true one. The know that the Imperium's unstoppable deference to a false Emperor is what is destroying the galaxy. Their bodies and minds have become corrupted by the Warp, and while they relish in blood and know that they are unsaveable, they do this for the future of the Galaxy. Khorne is a harsh master though, and he has corrupted their bodies so that their only food is blood, and their only medicine is pain, both theirs and that of others. They will never be able to break from the cycle of death and destruction, and they know this too, and this anguish has torn their minds more than the Warp ever could.
My cultist are cowards, and have joined my Marines in an attempt to save their own skin. Some are awed by the power granted by Khorne, some see it as the only way out. But they are all cowards who have turned on their families and townsmen in order to survive. My Daemons are my humans' nightmares incarnate, who stay by their sides, forever haunting them on the battlefield. Every time a Marine dreams of pain, another Bloodletter is born and will appear in battle beside him. Some Marines want their nightmares to kill them, but Khorne will never allow that. Just as the pain of the dead feeds his soldiers, his soldier's pain feeds him.
Anyway, so that's how I play my guys. They are almost entirely close combat, and I imagine them amongst the ranks of the enemy, slashing throats, dodging panicked gunshots, Daemons flashing in and out of existence, and pure unbridled Chaos.
I have.
1x Chaos Lord
2x Cultists (10 members each)
1x Chosen Marines (6 members)
1x Possessed Marines (5 members)
1x Helbrute
1x Bike Squad (3 members)
1x Maulerfiend
1x Daemon Prince
2x Bloodletters (10 members each)
Waiting to be built I have...
1x Bloodthirster
1x Terminator Lord
1x Terminator Squad (5 members)
1x Chaos Marines (10 members)
1x Rhino
1x Warp Talons/Raptors (5 members, I haven't decided yet which to build)
Peregrine is our resident crotchety old man, your better of just letting most his posts just scroll on by. If you absolutly HAVE to read them (he does give sound advice under all the scorn) I suggest reading it aloud in a screeching hawk-like voice while imaging his avatar flapping angrily from atop the spacemarine statue piece of terrain, it makes even his most scathing posts humorous.
Back on topic, if you post a list and are open to changes, most of us are happy to help you out and see if we can get your warband to hang around till the bitter end and aquire some skulls for their trophy racks.
Don't have to be competitive to minimise losses, it helps though. But, obvious tricks like not standing in the open with more fragile units to be shot to hell. I don't play CSM so can't help too much with them, but I think you're building in a better direction since the current problem seemed to be you didn't have much of a core with just the cultists. Again I'm unfamiliar with the CSM so I really don't know that much about them.
I also am very Khorne centered with my chaos marines. I use a ton of MoK close combat wielding marines and raptors in my lists. Most of the time I get destroyed too but there is something about seeing a line of 50 marines with axes and chainswords running at the enemy that just makes me so happy. But then I also know that I'll probably lose every time I put my army on the table. One thing that helps me is that I play just about every army out there so I have at least one army that's good at any time. May be a little difficult for most but that's how I get through it.
I am also not fan of the term "warband" and just say legion with anything chaos related
1x Chaos Lord
2x Cultists (10 members each)
1x Chosen Marines (6 members)
1x Possessed Marines (5 members)
1x Helbrute
1x Bike Squad (3 members)
1x Maulerfiend
1x Daemon Prince
2x Bloodletters (10 members each)
... Yup, that'll do it.
Hopefully without sounding like a dick, your problem is the list: It is just awful. It is formed entirely of slow melee infantry without a single delivery mechanism or anything to protect them. I can only assume that your game plan revolves around running them upfield at Infantry-speed and hoping the survivors are still enough to win. Quite simply, they won't. You have nothing fast or protected enough to actually win an assault after reaching them.
Remember, melee ability is *worthless* if you do not survive to actually hit things.
Don't use Berzerkers, use Spawn. They are much tougher, much faster, and still a capable assault unit once they connect.
Don't use Bloodletters, use Flesh Hounds. I appreciate you need a unit to be Troops but Bloodletters are just a paragon of slow, squishy troops that would actually be decent melee units, if they could get there.
Without telling you to just buy a new army, really go out of your way to avoid any more melee infantry and instead focus on Rhinos or Land Raiders to get your existing ones somewhere they can be useful. Go for Raptors and Bikes instead of Possessed or Chosen, take Flesh Hounds with a Grimoire rather than Bloodletters etc.
There is a limit to how much advice we can give before it simply becomes 'buy better models', and unfortunately I think we have already hit it.
Incidentally, mad respect for playing a fluffy army and Raptors are always the better choice over Warp Talons.
I started with a fluffy Slaaneshi CSM list, lots of unnecessary upgrades and suboptimal unit setups for the sake of the theme (MoS and Icon of Excess on a unit of PF Terminators, for instance). After a few somewhat embarrassing defeats at the hands of my competitive-minded friend, I began adjusting and improving lots of things, sacrificing many fluffy, but questionable choices for the sake of efficiency. As such, I've uplifted my primary army list from casual to semi-competitive status, and whenever I play my friend with the new list, the battles are always very intense and both sides take heavy casualties no matter the end result.
Try to tweak the upgrades, think of the best ways to run what you like, learn and try out new tactics, use cover and LOS, figure out what's your opponent's plan and attempt to foil it. There are many ways to improve an army's performance without ditching all the stuff you like only to switch it for the 3x Heldrakes + MoN combo.
Unfortunately, I hate the Spawn models, and I won't play models that I don't like. I might be convinced if there was an alternative model I could use that still made sense, but I'm not a huge fan of their story, I don't think they'd fit it.
Oh well, it looks like I'm doomed to have a bad army. In my head they are still badasses.
You aren't doomed so much as you've really built yourself into a hole, tactically. With a few more transports and some faster melee units, you can claw yourself back to 'gimmicky' or a 'tilt list' without too much trouble and keep the list Mono-Khorne.
My advice would be not to take it to heart too much. You've jumped into a very hostile environment with an army that has everything against it, and so you can either sell out and get some better-adapted units or you can soldier on as a fluffbunny and accept that you'll likely get more than your share of beatings. In an ideal world your army would still be a viable option, and it might well swing that way under the next rulebook, but for now it will always struggle because you lack the tools to actually make your army work.
Also, Spawn are a great unit because you can really think outside the box. Maybe they are some of Fabius' special brew, hulking monstrosities with far too many steroids and rage implants driving them into a mindless slaughter. Or they could be Direwolves, with Khorne blessing his favoured with the aspect of a Flesh Hound and extremely rapid muscle growth.
You either play an army which has the rules to be very resilient or your stuff will die very fast , specialy against good armies. A lot of flyers +3/+2 inv , re-rolls or forwarning on super big units .
There's no need to be a dick about it dude. We're all here to have fun, what's the point telling someone else they should just quit?
he is not going to have much fun with the stuff he has now . Worse most the stuff he does have never comes up in chaos lists , which makes me wonder who was advising him when he was buying his army.
I'm not taking the losses to heart too much, it's a game, people win and people lose. That's fine. What I do take to heart is spending maybe 25 hours building, customising, and painting a squad of Bloodletters that goes down in one Wyvern attack. They go back in the box, and aren't seen again until the next game.
I think I will try to find someone with a Guard army, with similar bases to mine, and photograph them on a board with a similar design scheme, and photograph them all in a big melée. That will help immortalise them I hope.
Is it possible, as someone who said they didn't even paint miniatures for the gameplay until recently, that he purchased his models not based on someone's competitive advice, but instead committed the atrocity of buying the models he actually liked?!
But if someone bought models , because of their looks and looks are the thing that makes them happy , why would they have problems with losing , if being good at the game wasn't something they wanted in the first place ?
You buy a good army and it works good. Or you buys models you like and get models you like. If you want both you pick armies that have little bad units and not something like csm , which could as well be called codex helldrake.
He explained that, he has no issue with losing, started gaming only recently and purely for the social aspect, he just wants to extend the games life for longer than the usual two turns so that he can show off his models for longer, and made this thread asking advice to how to do so. Hence why he originally purchased non-competitive models.
Re-read thread, believe it or not there is more information here than "CSM-list-with-no-Heldrakes-alert". I swear some people lack the capacity to process what actual socializing is.
SHUPPET wrote: Is it possible, as someone who said they didn't even paint miniatures for the gameplay until recently, that he purchased his models not based on someone's competitive advice, but instead committed the atrocity of buying the models he actually liked?!
And sadly that's a bad way to buy things in the current iteration of 40k. For all the brusqueness of his responses, Peregrine is usually 100% correct. It's going to be VERY hard for a Khornate army to win without going the cheesy route, because the game itself is built against said lists. There isn't much in the way of advice to give that isn't going to devolve into the typical "Use an OP list or GTFO" mentality, because that's how the game is.
SHUPPET wrote: He explained that, he has no issue with losing, started gaming only recently and purely for the social aspect, he just wants to extend the games life for longer than the usual two turns so that he can show off his models for longer, and made this thread asking advice to how to do so. Hence why he originally purchased non-competitive models.
Re-read thread, believe it or not there is more information here than "CSM-list-with-no-Heldrakes-alert". I swear some people lack the capacity to process what actual socializing is.
Oh I understand very well what he wants. He ain't going to get it though.
Non of the units he has will survive longer then two turns , unless he hides them off table or hides them in land raiders and out of LoS.
Look at his list he has blood letters. Those are t3 , they die to everything , including lasguns . No spawn or big biker unit , that could make his HQ survive longer . Cultists are good , but they are in reservs so he won't be showing them off to anyone.
I agree, and if you had read the thread you would have seen my post told him plain and simple, he is going to have to get a little more competitive. Insinuating that he messed up big by buying models he likes, with no intention of ever actually playing them, is kind of over the top though, which is all I'm saying.
I think your fluff (Lore (Mythology (semantics! ))) works - which is saying a lot, compared to some fan fluff and, well, some actual fluff (See: Draigo).
What would help us out a lot would be to know what kinds of lists you come up against, the units they have and what kind of numbers they bring them in - there's a big difference between, say, a Tau army that maximises Kroot with Aun'Shi as the HQ, and a Triptide list with Buffmander. Knowing what you're fighting will help us kind of moderate your list so it's still lore friendly for you, but doesn't get wiped turn two.
The one thing I will say is to never bring just 10 cultists. If you look at any Imperial Guard (or Astra Militarm) list, you'll see they usually bring at least 30+ Guardsmen in one form or another, even Mech and ABG lists. The reason is that they die to a stiff breeze. Bring a load of cultists or leave them in the box, IMO. At least 20, and that's being kind. Don't expect them to survive.
calamarialldayerrday wrote: I'm not taking the losses to heart too much, it's a game, people win and people lose. That's fine. What I do take to heart is spending maybe 25 hours building, customising, and painting a squad of Bloodletters that goes down in one Wyvern attack. They go back in the box, and aren't seen again until the next game.
I think I will try to find someone with a Guard army, with similar bases to mine, and photograph them on a board with a similar design scheme, and photograph them all in a big melée. That will help immortalise them I hope.
-If your regular opponents are used to roflstomping you, ask them to play some custom scenarios where your slow ground troops have the "without number" rule or whatever it was, where another identical unit comes on when the first dies. You could do it for all of them, or just the cultists or bloodletters, or whatever.
-Get those boys in some rhinos. Especially the lord and his squad.
-Get some long range to threaten your enemy's long range. Even just 3 obliterators can intimidate an opponent into putting a tank hidden elsewhere. They're not very popular, but I kinda like the lascannon/missile launcher hellbrute. It's pretty awesome when something dings it for a hull point, and it gets fire frenzy on the crazed table.
-Use cover. Even with low density terrain, it's not uncommon for our games to have ZERO shots in the first turn that are not granting a cover save. Remember to use night fighting as well.
-Save points on unneeded upgrades. You didn't post what kind of loadouts your guys had, but if they're not making it to short range, they're probably being wasted. Drop some toys and get more bodies.
-Focus. This is one of my main secrets to having a very high win rate with BA. Don't run your whole army at their whole army. Run your whole army at half their army. Pick out the units that are either fast enough to come bother you regardless of where you go, and the long-range units that can hit you regardless of where you are, and beeline your whole army towards the biggest concentration of those. I typically prefer to go to the flank with the most support/long range units and the least assault/counter assault elements, and then work my way across the rest of the army.
-Don't listen to Peregrine unless you want to become as bitter as he is.
Without knowing what army you're playing against, that's all the general advice I can give.
Another tip. Deploy terrain to help you. Always have some line of sight obstructing terrain that is big enough to actually obscure stuff at the middle of the battlefield. NEVER let the battlefield have almost no terrain. That just hands a victory to a shooty army.
Ah yeah, and if you get more rhinos your maulerfind will be more likely to live longer. Maulerfiend's aren't really bad but they often get killed early on if by themself. Helbrutes aren't great but in an armored list can work decently. As per the maulerfind, they work best in pairs our even trios supported by a fast and mobile army to really press in quickly
Don't worry. One day your Knorne Army will be better. Once we get out of a shooty edition and into an assaulty or, god forbid, a balanced edition your army will do fine. You can either wait a few years for that to happen (or not happen) or keep getting models and play games that are so big that they can't kill everything you throw down. 7000+ points sounds about right to me
The issue i see is that you are playing an assault based army, and have neither the speed nor the numbers to successfully connect. your army looks more like a collection of units you like, rather than a coherent force. add on to that they lack resilience being either squishy (cultists and bloodletters) small units (everything else) and with the exception of your bikes and mauler fiend, slow.
The place i think you should look first is boosting your numbers somewhat. standard marines are cheap and plentiful and fairly resilient, allowing you to seize objectives and hold on to them, and provide you with a fairly cheap bully unit, no-one really likes to face down a 20 strong unit of marines!
The second thing is even though you have an assault oriented force, you really need at least some long range support, or at the very least, some mechanism to cause some damage before you get into assault range, and lastly, you need to make your assault elements faster and able to get into your enemies face as quickly as possible taking as few casualties as possible.
You have the start of a good assault lineup, a Flying Daemon prince, Bloodthirster, some Mauler fiends backed up by a bigger squad of bikes with a lord, followed up by troops in rhinos can really put the pressure on to your opponent and can be concentrated on a flank. combine with deep striking units arriving turn 2-3 and you can achieve great force concentration on whichever flank you decide to press.
I've deliberately avoided suggesting spawn since you said you don't like the models/fluff but it has to be said the nature of spawn is that the way they look is entirely up to the player, and I've seen awesome looking spawn: weird bionic/flesh combos with iron warriors, rotting abominations trailing entrails as nurgle. they are one of the units where you can let your imagination go to town, and they are great as a fast bully unit as well
You also need 'some' heavy support to take out key units and threats as well. Forge fiends with auto cannons are decent, havocs are awesome, you also have predators and landraiders where you can deliver your units to where they need to be and have some fairly decent fire support as well.
and cultists... well, they are good at 2 things, holding rear objectives, and being bullet sponges for more valuable units. they die like flies, but they are cheap enough you can take lots of them. want to keep your chosen safe? surround them in cultists. need to distract the enemy weapons from shooting valuable units, run cultists at them. use and abuse them, but the will die in droves!
when building units, its always tempting to give everyone the best gear you possibly can. this results in certain units being points heavy, and you losing expensive models when you take casualties. the Chosen from the DV box are a case in point. they are fabulous models, but they are armed to the teeth. what you really need to do is have 3-4 well equipped guys, and the rest as, well, cannon fodder. so asuming you are delivering chosen via a landraider, have a lord, 4 guys with an assortment of power weapons, and 5 'naked' guys with no upgrades. and always have the naked guys stand at the front to get gunned down like the douchebags they are (or have a tanked up lord stand there and laugh at the feeble attempts to kill him) you lose less points when you take casualties, you can take more guys, and your combat potential is only diminished slightly as said douchebags get shot in the face/punched/stabbed/whatever by whoever they are beating up
The most important thing though, is if you are going to play games, to learn from your mistakes, listen to advice, and alter your list accordingly. right now its pretty awful!
and in closing, if you are a true follower of khorne, you would have 8 units of 8 men, for that is Khornes sacred number
I'd suggest more troops and an aegis, that'll give you something to shoot back with. sit 20 cultists behind the aegis and set them up with the quad gun to cover your army.
I'd also suggest, as you've obviously put a lot of effort into the army you have, get more of the same. boost the bikers up to 6-9, as 3 bikers are woefully easy to crush. the choson and possessed, again, there're so few of them that they can't survive any decent amount of firepower. I once faced an army which included 20 tzeench possessed, and they were so hard to kill! as soon as the opponent starts trying to kill them he'll realise 20 fearless 3+ 4++ S5 close combat monsters are really hard to kill, and he'll likely leave the rest of your army untouched in a bid to kill them off early, which will probably fail! I'd also suggest a landraider to cart any smaller CC unit around and take potshots at fliers (all twin linked guns, and moving already so they're snapfiring). Rhinos don't lend themselves to CC armies as they have to get out, wait a turn and then charge. that said, it's better than walking.
I'd also suggest a big rock or building in the middle of the board that blocks the lines of fire. the only thing worse than walking a CC army at a firing line is doing so in an open field.
Tactical...well, you need to post list, but dying after 2nd turn of shooting seems weird. Do you use LOS blocking terrain? Also, keep something in reserves. Of course, thats just what came to my mind. If you are facing truly fluffy list like cavalry IG against Taudar or just Riptide spam, there is simply too big difference...and you should talk to your opponent maybe make slight changes so both of you can enjoy the game (I dont believe you or him enjoy it at all).
And mindset...well, when I play some more fluffy list and face something that crush me... I focus on surviving as long as possible and for example destroying some units - and thats important - putting a lot of narrative into the game. OK, my IG is weak against Seerstar, but who cares? My brave Captain Cesmina made heroic grav chute drop into the rear of bikes, flamed them and then made suicidal charge with his chainsword and Emperors name on the lips! Eldrar is killing my guardsmen 5 a turn, but commisar McBride with power sword went to challenge and held off mighty Eldar for whole three turns! Hero of Imperium!
Well, even losing can be fun a lot of fun. Of course, if your opponent just wants to mechanicaly roll dices and dont invest into game anything else, it sucks.
No, it's not weird. It's what happens when one person optimizes and the other doesn't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
n0t_u wrote: Don't have to be competitive to minimise losses, it helps though. But, obvious tricks like not standing in the open with more fragile units to be shot to hell. I don't play CSM so can't help too much with them, but I think you're building in a better direction since the current problem seemed to be you didn't have much of a core with just the cultists. Again I'm unfamiliar with the CSM so I really don't know that much about them.
Fallacy. Cover often doesn't help meqs at all.
Unfortunately, CSM arent' very good in 6th and this is going to be an uphill battle for you. I wouldn't quit if you love Khorne, but realize that shooting absolutely dominates this edition, and if your opponents optimize their shooting phases, you are going to be picking up your army like this a lot. Just like my BA.
On that note, it's not against the lore to take shooty khorne units, as they do exist - though I can't recall their names at this time. Hopefully someone else can help out with this.
P.S. Just spent about an hour going over the World Eaters on 40K Wiki, it could be worth checking out Rampager, Red Butchers and Destroyer squads.
liquidjoshi wrote: On that note, it's not against the lore to take shooty khorne units, as they do exist - though I can't recall their names at this time. Hopefully someone else can help out with this.
P.S. Just spent about an hour going over the World Eaters on 40K Wiki, it could be worth checking out Rampager, Red Butchers and Destroyer squads.
I think there was an iconic unit known as the Teeth of Khorne. They were basically Khornate havocs that would rain down autocannon shots and heavy bolter shots upon enemies from afar. It's actually rather fluffy. If you go that way, I advise it might be best to not take marks on them though. Just paint them khornate. Cultists can go either way either being cheap to take more or silly numbers of attacks per model.
Cultists can go either way either being cheap to take more or silly numbers of attacks per model.
You really should never mark Cultists, for any reason, under any circumstances. All 4 options make them worse simply because the base model is so cheap, that you are always better off simply taking more bodies.
In this case, you could have 20 Marked or 30 Unmarked. They have the same number of Attacks on the charge, but off the charge the Unmarked have more Attacks, more Wounds, more shooting, and need more kills to cause a Morale check. There is simply no need to ever put a Mark on Cultists.
liquidjoshi wrote: On that note, it's not against the lore to take shooty khorne units, as they do exist - though I can't recall their names at this time. Hopefully someone else can help out with this.
P.S. Just spent about an hour going over the World Eaters on 40K Wiki, it could be worth checking out Rampager, Red Butchers and Destroyer squads.
Teeth of Khorne I think are what you're thinking of. They were Khorne based CSM with Heavy Bolters.
Peregrine wrote: I would suggest not playing 40k. It's a game where everything dies quickly (other than a few game-breaking balance mistakes), whether in shooting or assault. If you can't handle taking entire units off the table every turn you should probably just pick a different game to play.
Perfect exaple of toxic negativity. I'm going to copy and save this for later discussion.
Anyway, if you like the maulerfiend, you really need to use more than one at a time. One will just get shot up. Use at least two and have your hellbrutes run along beside them to protect their vulnerable sides. It's target saturation.
Also, make sure to choose your targets carefully. What's the biggest threat? What's the mission? If there's a guardian squad that's running for an objective. Stop them!
And lastly, what we called in the army "After Action Reviews." After the battle you go through it step by step to see what you did good, what worked, what didn't work and what needs to improve. "Oh, my terminators went after the wrong target, I should have gone after..." Those help you learn from each battle. Fighting and losing over and over again won't make you better automatically. You have an analyze what happened.
Cultists can go either way either being cheap to take more or silly numbers of attacks per model.
You really should never mark Cultists, for any reason, under any circumstances. All 4 options make them worse simply because the base model is so cheap, that you are always better off simply taking more bodies.
In this case, you could have 20 Marked or 30 Unmarked. They have the same number of Attacks on the charge, but off the charge the Unmarked have more Attacks, more Wounds, more shooting, and need more kills to cause a Morale check. There is simply no need to ever put a Mark on Cultists.
Eh I was going more for the silly nature of Khornate cultists. That said, I do agree with you that the most optimal solution is to simply never put a mark on them. The best ways to play them are markless or zombified.
Short answer, stop being so emotioanl about your plastic men dying, its a game. And if you actualy get sad by said things dying I suggest sticking to painting/ modeling.
Long answer, I suggest listenting to the adivices given in this thread. And reworking your army, you need the means to deliver you CC troops, witch you currently lack.
I would also invest in more cultists, Plauge Marines or Nurgle bikers. And havocs with auto cannons and missile launchers, that and a Forgefiend
liquidjoshi wrote: On that note, it's not against the lore to take shooty khorne units, as they do exist - though I can't recall their names at this time. Hopefully someone else can help out with this.
P.S. Just spent about an hour going over the World Eaters on 40K Wiki, it could be worth checking out Rampager, Red Butchers and Destroyer squads.
I think there was an iconic unit known as the Teeth of Khorne. They were basically Khornate havocs that would rain down autocannon shots and heavy bolter shots upon enemies from afar. It's actually rather fluffy. If you go that way, I advise it might be best to not take marks on them though. Just paint them khornate. Cultists can go either way either being cheap to take more or silly numbers of attacks per model.
ClockworkZion wrote:
liquidjoshi wrote: On that note, it's not against the lore to take shooty khorne units, as they do exist - though I can't recall their names at this time. Hopefully someone else can help out with this.
P.S. Just spent about an hour going over the World Eaters on 40K Wiki, it could be worth checking out Rampager, Red Butchers and Destroyer squads.
Teeth of Khorne I think are what you're thinking of. They were Khorne based CSM with Heavy Bolters.
Trondheim wrote: Short answer, stop being so emotioanl about your plastic men dying, its a game. And if you actualy get sad by said things dying I suggest sticking to painting/ modeling.
Long answer, I suggest listenting to the adivices given in this thread. And reworking your army, you need the means to deliver you CC troops, witch you currently lack.
I would also invest in more cultists, Plauge Marines or Nurgle bikers. And havocs with auto cannons and missile launchers, that and a Forgefiend
It's hard to not be negative about a game where the advice to a Khorne player looking to win more games is to get more Nurgle troops.
I don't have any regular opponents, so it's not really an option to take that into account. We have a very large group, and we like to rotate opponents a lot. I don't get emotional about my plastic men dying, there's resin and metal in there too!
Re: unit choices, for me it doesn't make any sense to mix gods with my army, so that's not really an option. Regardless of the lores which don't match, there is also an issue of aesthetics.
Okay, so the bottom line is that I need to get my Rhino constructed? Unfortunately that's a long time away as I made a promise to myself that I would get all of my currently constructed models painted before I built any more, and most definitely before I bought any more.
Its hilarious how people are disparaging Peregrine for being negative in his advice and all they can recommend in turn is "buy another army because your's is bad"!
Team games, or FFAs. Anything with 3+ players. Works around here.
We adapted Treachery to 40k, and its amazing. Lists and competitiveness take a back seat to dice and socialization when there really aren't winners or losers.
Trondheim wrote: Short answer, stop being so emotioanl about your plastic men dying, its a game. And if you actualy get sad by said things dying I suggest sticking to painting/ modeling.
Long answer, I suggest listenting to the adivices given in this thread. And reworking your army, you need the means to deliver you CC troops, witch you currently lack.
I would also invest in more cultists, Plauge Marines or Nurgle bikers. And havocs with auto cannons and missile launchers, that and a Forgefiend
It's hard to not be negative about a game where the advice to a Khorne player looking to win more games is to get more Nurgle troops.
Unless something magic happens overnigth, and Khorne units suddely can shurg of all manner of ordonace as they slugg across the board that will be the best option, short of allying in traitor guard. And drown the enemy in templates and other goodness
calamarialldayerrday wrote: I don't have any regular opponents, so it's not really an option to take that into account. We have a very large group, and we like to rotate opponents a lot. I don't get emotional about my plastic men dying, there's resin and metal in there too!
I would try to seek out other players would would be interested in playing custom scenarios, or play a narrative campaign (where the story matters as much as the game).
If you're playing pick-up games against a new opponent, I would try to discuss army lists and expectations beforehand. Make it clear that you're playing a fluffy list - a lot of players will tone down their competitive lists, since tabling their opponents on turn 2 is not terribly fun. Don't play against people who only seem interested in playing super-competitive or spammy lists, it's not worth your time.
I'll mirror what other people have suggested: if you want to maintain the theme of your army, your best bet is to buy more transports, get more cultists, and play with lots of LOS blocking terrain (and really aggressively hug that terrain as you move up the field, to deny your opponent's shooting). Footslogging your dudes over an open field will get them killed in a hurry, as you have experienced.
Shall I change my understanding of this post more to be "How fluff players can give competitive players a run for their money?".
Best method is usually to give lots of cheap stuff to kill while the more scary units wreck-face.
Chaos Marines: I have seen the Typhus zombie horde with the three helldrakes and whatever else you want to add as a painful combination. Maybe get some chaos bikes as well and call them the heralds of infection...
The trick I think is to get the "theme" working for you where you do not pick up too many of the "dog" parts of the codex and manage to snag some points effective units.
First off, I don't think that there is a need for you to buy an entire new army However, I agree with the fact that you might need to add to that list to make it better. Transports have been suggested and other units have been suggested, so I won't go into that with you. Besides, I know very little about your army in general so I wouldn't be of much use to you there. Assault themed armies are very tough to do anything with right now so don't expect an awful lot.
That being said, playing only models that you like is awesome, and I totally understand the feeling, but to simply disregard advice given because you don't like how a model looks, and then wonder how to make your list better in the same vein is kind of ridiculous.
As far as getting tabled by turn 2? You can always ask an opponent to play a more friendly list (most are willing to do this for you) but sometimes, that may be all the person has to play so you might want to look for other players if possible?
There's plenty of reasonable tactical advise in here, but as someone who also frequents a mono-Khorne army and likes to play more casually, here's my suggestions:
1. Try and get some team games going where you can lean on/support another army that's a little more competitive. It will also make for a messier/more epic battlefield.
2. Paint more cultists and send them to the slaughter. It's Khorne, right? Blood for the blood god applies just as much to your guys as it does to your opponents! I was always a very effective 'nids player because it was very easy for me to send my hormagaunts to the slaughter for the overall cause. Marines, not so much because I was too emotionally attached to them to take any risks.
3. Play smaller scale, kill squad type games. I think your models would maybe be a bit more effective and also the games would be quicker so you could get anything dead back onto the field quickly.
4. Play with tons of terrain.
5. Play with other like-minded people who will want to try and help you have a fair game. This is a problem which can be solved iteratively -- try something, see how it works and how the game was for both of you, discuss, and adjust. Note that this will only apply if you have a specific group of people you play over and over again.
You could always make up a fancy "skull throne cemetery" diorama and place your models in that as they get destroyed. Then you get to have them sit there and look awesome all game whether they're active on the table or not (plus it could be a nice big chunk of LOS blocking terrain for you to put down).
Can't really help you too much more from a tactics perspective since I don't know CSMs that well, although I believe that Nurgle Zombie Cultists are quite popular, and you could use "brainwashed pain-dead khornite gladiatorial initiates" as a stand in for them pretty well if you ask me.
Don't give up !!! My orks havent won a game since last summer due to my brother deciding he will play nothing but salamanders with a typical salamander mindest of flamers for everyone.
One game i gave up after the first turn of the game when he plonked 3 land raider redeemers on the table and my lootas ran off :( was a sad day.
My blood angels struggle as i have almost made a full company with none of the awesome stuff and a few too many power axes.
The only way to get a half decent game is full on mech assault for me. I suspect you may need to join the mech assault as well. Dropping squads off behind BLoS terrain is the only way for my Blood Angels to get close and assault with enough numbers for choppy fun times.
Either way Khorne must love you for he cares not from where the blood and skulls come from, so maybe ask him to throw you a favour sometime btw snag a couple more bikes stick your lord on a juggernaught and send them at the big thing.
On a side note I'm just going to say a fun thing to do is tally the dead! See how many skulls can roll for the skull god by the end of the game! As long as one has been lopped/shot/etc off then Khorne has been provided at least a flow of blood!
Hug cover and be sneaky - this tends to work wonders on the opposition, and prolongs the battle greatly, however you will likely lose on VPs.
The one who could really help you here is my GF, she is very good at taking a small, gakky force and doing quite a bit of damage with it through careful defense and very well timed assaults
Hey, you're a Khorne player, you shouldn't be worried about your army- Khorne cares not from where the blood flows!
But on a more serious note, I think there's a balance between fluffiness and effective. Something like putting the Mark of Khorne might seems like a good idea to reinforce the theme, but you have to ask yourself "does not spending these points on this mark diminish the theme I am propagating?"
I think a lot of times painting and converting goes farther unifying a force than list-building ever does. And to that extent you can make army selections that are more competitive with the current meta without sacrificing the narrative you're...er, forging (sorry, couldn't help it).
My brother plays mono-Khorne, and I've played against it multiple times. My advise based on playing them multiple times:
- You definately need more cultists, unless they get very lucky they won't kill 20-30 of them in a single shooting phase. They can also act as an escort for a Lord, who would let them stick around longer.
- "Rhinos, RHINOS!!! Our enemies hide in METUL BAWXES!" Based on personal experience, Rhinos can be handy to protect squads embacked from enemy shooting. So what they're not assault vehicles, footslogging guarentees a T3 charge, same with the rhino, but rhinos overall are faster and provide aformentioned protection.
- Single units of Maulerfiends and bikes are too easy to kill. Double up on them and at least one will survive to do damage.
- If it is within your power, get 2 vindicators. They are very powerful, don't cost too much, can fit with a Khorne-centric army, and they distract the enemy from squishier elements in your army.
- As other people said, Havocs can be Khornate as well. Get 5 w/ autocannons sounds to be the best option for taking down mid AV vehicles and MCs (and can get lucky when shooting flyers).
- Make sure there is at least some LoS blocking terrain. Lots of stuff ignore cover nowadays so relying on just cover isn't quite enough, given =][=, Tau, and Eldar having many things to ignore it.
Just keep in mid I don't play it myself, its just my observations.
calamarialldayerrday wrote: We're all here to have fun, what's the point telling someone else they should just quit?
I told you that you should quit because you should quit. 40k is clearly not the game for you. You want a game where you can display your awesome models, but 40k is a game designed around the rule that everything dies as fast as possible. This is even more true when you're dedicated to playing a non-competitive melee army in an edition that overwhelmingly favors shooting. So you have two choices:
1) Quit, and spend your time and money on a game that you actually enjoy.
or
2) Stubbornly insist on playing 40k, make some ineffective changes to your list, and continue to have the same problems. You probably won't be any happier, and you'll have wasted more time and effort trying. And you'll probably quit anyway.
While again Peregrine is harsh, he has a point. There isn't really anything you *can* do to stop your models getting killed quickly, just possibly less quickly than before.
calamarialldayerrday wrote: Unfortunately, I hate the Spawn models, and I won't play models that I don't like. I might be convinced if there was an alternative model I could use that still made sense, but I'm not a huge fan of their story, I don't think they'd fit it.
Oh well, it looks like I'm doomed to have a bad army. In my head they are still badasses.
I use Dire Wolves. They look way more Khornate.
Spoiler:
Anyway, there are ways of making relatively competitive Khornate style rush lists. Maybe something like,
Mace Prince w/ Wings
5 Khorne Spawn, Lord on Juggernaut w/ AoBF
Heldrake
Heldrake
Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend
2 x 10 Cultists to babysit things backfield
Then just add in CSM squads to fill out the list. Something like the above should play super aggressive. You've got 4 units moving like Beasts (the 3 Maulerfiends and the Spawn), and the Mace Prince can hide behind the Maulerfiends. It's not the best army in the world and it is going to get blown away by Taudar but it might be fun to play.
Do those you regularly play against feel the same way about the game?
If it is the background and models that are your biggest draw to the game perhaps finding some better written rules and using your 40k models to play it would be best.
I'm not well versed in the alternate rule sets but perhaps someone here can suggest something where games would play out more how you'd like.
I've seen Tomorrow's War and Warpath suggested in the past.
My suggestion doesn't involve changing your army at all.
Use more terrain and things they can hide in or behind. You can't shoot what you can't see. Really how many sci-fi wars are going to take place on massive open fields where you can blast each other. That mentality went out the window in medieval times when they realised it wasn't working.
My alternative suggestion is one that has been covered. Buy more models for specific reasons like rhino transports as something to get about faster or faster troops.
There are also options to use codex marines or forge world rules if you would like to but this is of course your call.
My opinion though will always be this.
You only engage the enemy on your terms therefore you need to have more terrain etc to allow for it.
Alternatively if you were my opponent I'd allow you to use chaos drop pods or land raider variants. Why not... It's all in fun anyway.
You can ask your opponent. If they're not just there to win they won't mind. We'd have to balance some things but it'd be fun.
A big part of this game is in constructing a viable army. Most units have a particular place on the field. The main thing here is to understand that not all builds are equally viable and the success of your army will depend, in part, on the player across the table from you and what they brought.
For example, if your army is full of troop choices with basic firearms and your opponent brings a lot of mech units that have large blast templates.. then you'll likely be hosed. Essentially it's the old "don't bring a knife to a gun fight" statement. It doesn't matter if that is the prettiest knife on the planet...the guy with the gun has an advantage.
The only real advice anyone can give you is to say that you need to spend a bit of time looking at what is normally fielded at your local store then take some time to analyze their tactics. Once that is done, build a list and strategy that can compete. It might be as simple as just changing how you are fielding your current troops. It might be that you figure out that you have a hole which needs to be filled. Either way, do this before spending ANY more money on your army.
Several of the old Art of War quotes are absolutely relevant here. Namely:
Art of War wrote: If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
I suspect your a victim of the latter statement. Namely that you have an army but you aren't sure how to wield it correctly and that you really don't have any idea of what's good/bad about your various opponents armies. You can have a perfectly fluffy army that is tuned to wrecking face. But you have to know how to use it.
Peregrine was right to some extent - Things die quick in 40k. There are ways around it, sure - One is good saves (invulnerables, preferrably with a reroll), the other is bodies. Khorne may have a hard time getting access to the former (Tzeentch daemon allies and FNP Nurgle are the way to go) but can easily get the latter. Failing that, remember to use LOS-Blocking terrain and cover.
1x Chaos Lord 2x Cultists (10 members each) 1x Chosen Marines (6 members) 1x Possessed Marines (5 members) 1x Helbrute 1x Bike Squad (3 members) 1x Maulerfiend
1x Daemon Prince 2x Bloodletters (10 members each)
Waiting to be built I have...
1x Bloodthirster 1x Terminator Lord 1x Terminator Squad (5 members) 1x Chaos Marines (10 members) 1x Rhino 1x Warp Talons/Raptors (5 members, I haven't decided yet which to build)
In general, I'd say your list suffers from the dreaded "one of everything" syndrome and could do with some streamlining. In my opinion, a good 40k list has a) Troops b) Scary things that keep the enemy from shooting at your troops. Right now, you have neither of those, but don't give up yet, you're almost there
First, the most glaring issue with your army: A chronic lack of troops. Cultists were a godsend for Chaos players, but have to be used in numbers to be really effective. The two squads from Dark Vengeance cover the minimum troops requirement, but are otherwise too flimsy to properly fulfill their role. I suggest you buch them into a unit of 20, and use them as bodyguards/meatshields for your most killy close combat character. Better yet, get the Helbrute dataslate from GW and field them in a Helcult - Either way, use your mob of expendable cultists as "ablative wounds" for more powerful units or characters.
Get another unit of CSM ASAP. In the end, scoring troops are what decide a battle. The rest is just meant to either decrease the effectiveness of the enemy (by killing things, mostly) or just looking so awesome they manage to attract to them the scary weaponry that would otherwise be directed at your troops.
Bloodletters? I wouldn't bother bringing but the bare minimum. They are the suitably-themed tax required to field better things. Like that Bloodthirster of yours. Get it painted and field it, you'll see it drawing a lot of attention. Combine it with other fast, hard hitting units (bikers, maulerfiends) and you will discover the wonders of target saturation: Pointing several serious threats at your foe and forcing him/her to make hard choices.
Speaking of which, Maulerfiends work better in pairs
Biker squads need to be larger to work. Consider getting some more to go with them.
I don't have a lot of experience dealing with Raptors, but by the sound of it they seem a nice unit for backfield disruption. I won't expect them to survive long or give you the game, but used sensibly they might distract your opponent's key units (i.e. ranged threats) for a turn or so, long enough for your killy stuff to bridge the dreaded midfield gap.
The Chosen from DV are woefully bad. I love the miniatures, but they have just the wrong gear for any duty. If you insist on using them, have them ride a Land Raider - Same can be said of your terminators, if you've kitted them for Close Combat. Just like their loyalist brothers, some CSM builds require the Raider to work.
Finally, go light on marks and upgrades. There's no sense in wasting points in MoK for units that won't be ever seeing close combat.
The Sun Tzu quote sums it up pretty well. A few tips
1. Read up! Know the strengths and weakness of your units, the good builds, and more or less the strengths and weakness of each other army. Know the rules inside and out. General tactics on how to play go a long way. Re enacting the charge of the light brigade over and over will end up with your pretty army being shot off the table time after time. That kind of stuff has not worked in reality for over 100 years, do you think it will work in 40k land?
2. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight. If your bringing your themed army up against a hardcore tournament list, your going to get stomped quickly and mercilessly.Explain beforehand that your running a soft, themed army that is not competitive, so your opponent does not throw down something so brutal you have no chance. I usually bring 2-3 lists when I go to my club, at least one competitive and one casual, maybe some in between. This way, I can get a game in with the person that has 4 helldrakes, or the person with a soft list.
Another way to keep the fight even is to play the correct points level. If you are struggling to field 1500 points by taking every upgrade known to man, your going to simply be outnumbered and outgunned by most other lists. Make sure you have sufficient bodies and guns for the points level(see, tactics). Generally, you want boys over toys, and some toys are far better than others.
3. Accept that death is a thing. This is 40k, it is all about being grimdark as grimdarkly possible. Fleets, planets, armies, races, craftworlds, etc are removed from existence in less than a day. People and things die left and right to anything and everything possible. The game reflects this- almost every living thing can die to a lasgun if shot enough, and even the toughest armor is vulnerable. Regardless of how awesome your models are, they can and will die very easily. Great heroes and monsters can and will be killed by the most random things. A universe where everything dies, and a game with dice is going to make for short lived...everything. If you can't accept that, then your always going to be unhappy when some random guardsmen blasts down your beautiful bloodletters.
1x Chaos Lord
2x Cultists (10 members each)
1x Chosen Marines (6 members)
1x Possessed Marines (5 members)
1x Helbrute
1x Bike Squad (3 members)
1x Maulerfiend
1x Daemon Prince
2x Bloodletters (10 members each)
Okay, so going by what you have done/waiting for loving attention, you've got a very workable base to expand on. For the true Khornate lover, you can try;
- merge the Cultists into 1 large squad. Generally, squads of essentially naked T3 dudes need numbers - lots and lots of numbers! to be effective. Killing 10 T3 grunts is easy, even a lowly Tactical squad can gut you in a single turn. 20 takes some effort. 30+ takes focused fire from a good chunk of the enemy to kill off!
- Save the Chosen to use as Aspiring Champs for now. It appears you've got a Dark Vengeance set, and unfortunately for you, the DV Chosen squad is really dyslexic in it's load out. Generally you want to equip a squad to fulfill one main role. The DV Chosen however are trying to do too much of 'a little bit of everything!' to be viable.
If you want them stacked with assault goodness, then I'd pick 1-2 types of weapons for them to carry, (ie: 3-4 pairs of Lightning claws + a Fist or two for killing marines effectively), AND, get them a Land Raider to safely truck about the battlefield without getting shot to bits so easily! (and being an assault vehicle, you can assault right out of it!)
- You need more Bikes. 3 is too few and even a single kill loses you a lot of pts & unit effectiveness. Try doubling it to 6, or better yet, take 8 of 'em and honour your God's sacred number! Giving two of them bike-mounted Meltaguns is helpful as well as you can use their speed to hit enemy vehicles quickly and/or in their squishier side/rear armour.
- If you like Possessed a lot, then I highly suggest using the Crimson Slaughter codex rules. They have much better random abilities, and also count as a Troops choice! (you do however, lose your Axe of Blind Fury relic going this route, but the Blade of the Relentless is a solid replacement, and the suit of armour relic is heinous on a Jugger Lord!)
- Try this build on for size for your Chaos Daemons Prince: Daemon of Khorne + The Eternal Blade + Greater Gift + Wings.
250'ish pts which isn't too bad for a Prince, 66% chance of having both WS10/I10 (yikes!), +D3 attacks AND you're S8 on the charge, meaning T4 enemies suffer from the Instant Death! rule.
The beauty of the +D3 to your key stats means you maintain solid combat effectiveness, even if your opponent has a nasty ability that normally drops your stats!
- Bloodletters should be combined into 1 squad. Honestly, I'd take 16 due to the whole 'sacred numbers' backround.
1x Bloodthirster
1x Terminator Lord
1x Terminator Squad (5 members)
1x Chaos Marines (10 members)
1x Rhino
1x Warp Talons/Raptors (5 members, I haven't decided yet which to build)
- Cool thing about the Bloodthirster, he makes your Daemon Prince into a Heavy Support choice so you can actually ally both in!
His standard basic kit so enough to keep him going, but adding a Greater Gift for some added protection is always helpful. Or else you can even give him an Exalted Gift and have him carry the Grimoire of True Names - an item that can be used to (most of the time!) boost the invulnerable save of any model with the Daemon special rule. (so, it also works on CSM Possessed, Oblits, Warp Talons, etc...)
- The Termies are decent as Deep Striking melta squads. If you want them tearing it up in combat though, you really do need to give them a Land Raider to get them there.
However, paired Lightning clawed Termie w/MoK + Banner is pretty awful to be on the receiving end of!
- Chaos Marines should go in the Rhino as many others have mentioned. Note too you can give the Rhino a Combi-Meltagun for only a few pts, handy for an early game pot-shot at an enemy vehicle, as cover overall is less effective this edition due to so many armies pretty much ignoring it.
- Warp Talons have largely been written off as useless trash... Slap them with the Grimoire though, and enjoy a 3++ invuln save! (IF you decide to break the theme a wee bit and take some Divination psychic powers, you can first off cast Forewarning and then use the Grimoire to build a 2++ invlun save!)
Raptors as 5 men are cheap enough to use as a suicide Deep Strike unit with a pair of Meltaguns for tank popping.
Now, as for how to try and organise everything, you might want to eventually build towards:
(Note, I'm going to use Codex Crimson Slaughter, so the relics are different from those in CSM codex)
HQ: Jugger Lord w/MoK + Jugger (duh!) + Blade of the Relentless + Daemonheart + Sigil of Corruption + Melta bombs.
HQ: Dark Apostle w/MoK + Crozius of the Dark Covenant + Prophet of the Voices.
HQ: Bloodthirster of Khorne w/Grimoire of True Names (Exalted Gift that's defaulted to a Hellforged Artifact)
Elites: 5x Termies w/Mok + Icon of Wrath + paired Lightning claws + Land Raider dedicated transport. (could add a power fist or two for taking out T5-6+ enemies)
Elites: 8 Chosen w/mix of Plasma pistols/guns/Meltaguns and a power weapon/fist + Rhino
Troops: 8x Possessed + Rhino (Dark Apostle goes here! If you're really crazy, make it 16 and run them forwards in a giant mutated horde of crazy death!)
Troops: 8x Chaos Marines + Rhino (can add a special weapon + champ gear)
Troops: 8x Chaos Marines + Rhino (can add a special weapon + champ gear)
Troops: 24 or 32x Cultist blob (remember those sacred numbers - right?!)
Troops: 16x Bloodletters (Deep Strike them into play and drop them behind your main advance to stop them getting all shot up!)
Fast: 4x Spawn w/MoK (if you hate the Spawn models, try the likes of the Gorebeast from the Fantasy Warriors of Chaos Chariot kit, or maybe Dragon Ogres. Put that Jugger Lord here!!!)
Fast: 8x Bikes w/2x meltagun or plasma gun
Fast: Helldrake w/Baleflamer
Fast: 16x Flesh Hounds
Heavy: 8x Havocs w/4x Autocannon (great for popping medium vehicles like Wave Serpents.)
Heavy: Maulerfiend
Heavy: Land Raider can go hear as well (especially if you decide not to use Termies) and then can transport anyone right off the bat.
Heavy: Daemon Prince w/MoK + Eternal Blade (aka: Eternal Beatstick!) + Greater Gift + Wings.
Granted you won't use that all in one list! But it's plenty of options to play around with.
Nor is this by any means a tournament crushing list, (and Dakka will still likely laugh at it), but it's not pure weaksauce either as long as you can play against opponents who aren't running a top tier build. (ie: Triple Riptides, Wave Serpent spam, Screamerstar, etc... will wreck this easily, but those aren't "friendly" lists which seems to be more what you're after)
Still, with decent amounts of terrain on the table, good stratagy and against other non-highly optimised lists, this should still give most armies a run for their money while still looking super cool!
Eventually you could branch out and add more Daemons, thus allowing you to play them as the Primary and get access to some really cool tricks like Bloodcrushers led by Karanak the Hound of Vengeance (yay Scouting cavalry!), and/or bringing a Soul Grinder to the party (basically a Defiler on steroids!)
Plus you could lead those Hounds with a Jugger Herald who can give the unit Hatred, while also providing some ap2 attacks and being able to tank S8/9 shooting for the puppies, alongside other goodies like Skulltaker, Skull Cannon(s), more Hounds, more Heralds, etc...
If you are playing an army comprised of units you like and play it the way you would like to, you will most likely lose horribly in 40k. In 40k, you build your list according to whatever the rules currently favor heavily or your army is a crap bucket.
Right now assault armies are just horrible. Good on you for playing what you want, but 40k just isn't made to support that. If you stick to your guns and keep on trucking, you may get lucky and find a future edition/codex favoring your playing style while others find their playing style crapped on. Woo!
Accept that this is the way GW rolls and enjoy it or find a new game.
My original Sisters of Battle list had two squads of Repentia and two Penitent Engines. That was back in 3rd. Now I can't even use them because they're such a liablility. I even named my Order "Order of the Penitent Lady" because I wanted a penitent style army.
So, I had to change my list if I ever wanted to win. :(
That's very poor game design on GW's part. Why did they make two units out of a small codex so completely usless?
Adapt or die, I guess. But it's a lame decision to make.
liquidjoshi wrote: I think your fluff (Lore (Mythology (semantics! ))) works - which is saying a lot, compared to some fan fluff and, well, some actual fluff (See: Draigo).
Thanks dude, it's the lore and modeling (and hence matching each other) that I enjoy most in the game. However, I'm not familiar with the story of Draigo, what do you mean?
Kaldor Draigo. Apparently walks through the Warp fighting Daemons, casually carved his mentor's name into the heart of the daemon Primarch Mortarion... A lot of silly, OTT things that never needed to happen. A lot of us like to pretend he doesn't exist.
The problem with building out larger squads, in this particular case, is that it does not resolve the main problem. Your troops are still going to be dying in droves, the only difference is that there's so many more of them that the units they belong to are not going to be wiped out entirely as quickly, and might have the staying power to get enough guys into melee to actually do something... but you're still going to be putting models back into the box by the handful every time your opponent has a shooting phase.
It would really help to know what kind of lists you're commonly up against. Are you fighting other Space Marine armies? Tau armies? Orks? Tyranid? Guard?
1x Chaos Lord
2x Cultists (10 members each)
1x Chosen Marines (6 members)
1x Possessed Marines (5 members)
1x Helbrute
1x Bike Squad (3 members)
1x Maulerfiend
1x Daemon Prince
2x Bloodletters (10 members each)
Waiting to be built I have...
1x Bloodthirster
1x Terminator Lord
1x Terminator Squad (5 members)
1x Chaos Marines (10 members)
1x Rhino
1x Warp Talons/Raptors (5 members, I haven't decided yet which to build)
Some things that can help:
-Use the Helbrute dataslate which can really help both of those units out (fearless for the cultists; improved cover save for the brute).
-Use the Crimson Slaughter book as your primary which means the Possessed have a better random table to roll on.
-You'll then be without troops, so you'll have to build those CSM, which you could consider making them into berserkers in a rhino. If not, make sure to put the Lord here to keep them fearless.
I was going to add more, but Experiment 626 gave you an excellent information dump that you should save and keep in mind when moving forward with building, painting, list building and playing.
1x Chaos Lord
2x Cultists (10 members each)
1x Chosen Marines (6 members)
1x Possessed Marines (5 members)
1x Helbrute
1x Bike Squad (3 members)
1x Maulerfiend
1x Daemon Prince
2x Bloodletters (10 members each)
Waiting to be built I have...
1x Bloodthirster
1x Terminator Lord
1x Terminator Squad (5 members)
1x Chaos Marines (10 members)
1x Rhino
1x Warp Talons/Raptors (5 members, I haven't decided yet which to build)
You have a decent base there. You are having trouble because you are missing all of the competitive units. Heldrake, Obliterators, Juggerlord, Khorne Hounds. In Time your collection will grow to include these things. For now, work on making your units more survivable. Put the bloodletters and cultists into 1 squad each instead of 2. Perhaps some of the new rules, crimson slaughter supplement or the helbrute dataslate will add to your army without taking away much.
I've not played a pitched battle game of 40k for over 3 months. Having been consistently destroyed by "casual" gamers who are running that months FOTM death star unit against my Fluff lists EG: full scout list (6 squads of scouts, in the scout transport with biker support etc) because I wanted to see what a fluffy list would play like. I've actually been having much more fun playing a heavily restricted smaller point games leading up to a narrative campaign.
Here's what I mean by restrictive:
Spoiler:
Point value 500
Special Rules
No Fliers
No Tanks
No MC No Special Characters
No buildings
No Upgrades
Board Size 4 x 4
FOC options
1 x HQ Choice Can only select one item upgrade, No Special Characters
Up to 6 x Troop Minimum Squad Size, No Transports
1 x Fast Attack Choice No Vehicles
I tell you what all the people I have played against (all 6 of them) have actually had an awesome amount of fun, it forces you to take lists you normally wouldn't and as its leading onto a narrative campaign there is so much more that can be done with it.
calamarialldayerrday wrote:most of my army is dead by my opponent's second shooting phase, and those models I worked tirelessly on for hours each, even the infantry, have to go back in the box after only a few minutes. I want to be able to give them the visibility they deserve
There is exactly one way in which your opponents can basically table your army by the end of their second player turn, and that's with gunlines. If your complaint is that gunlines vastly cheapen 40k, and that they limit your options to do anything, and ultimately work to suck the fun out of the game for everyone who doesn't run gunlines, then I'd agree. And link you here. What you're describing, and its effects on you isn't a new phenomenon.
There are kind of two ways to handle this. The first, and generally best way is to find people who share your point of view. People who won't let ease of winning get in the way of all the depth 40k has to offer. Just play with different players.
The second, more moderate approach is to just play different games of 40k. Instead of using the awful book missions, make up your own, better ones. Throw out the rules for terrain that so heavily encourage two trenches with a no-man's land in the middle. Place it thematically, use more, use third parties to set it up. You don't have to let the board look like a shooting gallery. Make missions that aren't just about who can kill who first. I've been playing respawning 40k for example, which is way, WAY better than just both players lining up, firing a volley, and seeing whose dice let them win. Things where your units get to do stuff rather than just getting put down and packed back up again.
Of course, not everyone might agree to those little tweaks, but that brings us back to the first way of handling things. If the people you're playing the game with aren't willing to try out little changes because it might hurt their chances of winning a dice game, then they're not the kind of people you're going to want to play with anyways.
calamarialldayerrday wrote:Okay, so the bottom line is that I need to get my Rhino constructed?
No, it's not the bottom line.
You can do things to make your list stronger, and that will help you win more games, this is true. I myself have run khorne a half dozen times to some reasonable success. You're starting to lose focus though.
Because if you make lists to start winning more, then you're making lists to start winning more. If you play the strongest khorne list you can, and you're still getting wiped off the table by gunlines, well, then why not upgrade to a nurgle list? It's more likely to help you win. Why not upgrade out of the CSM codex entirely? Why not just run a taudar gunline like everybody else?
You have to play the game for the reason you want to play the game. If you want to play khorne, then play khorne. Just don't expect it to do that well against WAAC players. Make adjustments to your list if you want, but on your own terms. It's really easy to get sucked in, and wind up being an enabler to the exact kinds of things that are giving you these problems in the first place.
You have to play the game for the reason you want to play the game. If you want to play khorne, then play khorne. Just don't expect it to do that well against WAAC players. Make adjustments to your list if you want, but on your own terms. It's really easy to get sucked in, and wind up being an enabler to the exact kinds of things that are giving you these problems in the first place.
But what if you have an army you bought and you want it to be as good as the top tier armies and it just isn't even with a new codex .One does counts as or something?
You need to be playing with people who want the same thing, which I doubt you are currently doing. If you were, they'd see you removing handfuls of berserkers each turn and in the next game bring far less artillery so you can actually reach their lines.
You have to play the game for the reason you want to play the game. If you want to play khorne, then play khorne. Just don't expect it to do that well against WAAC players. Make adjustments to your list if you want, but on your own terms. It's really easy to get sucked in, and wind up being an enabler to the exact kinds of things that are giving you these problems in the first place.
But what if you have an army you bought and you want it to be as good as the top tier armies and it just isn't even with a new codex .One does counts as or something?
You sell that army and buy the top tier ones.
Or you go play a game that doesn't have this issue. IE all of them
If you can't deal with having your army removed by the bucket load, then you either need to change your army, your list, your opponent or the game.
I used to run much 'nicer' lists than I do now. There was a Defiler, possessed, regular chaos marines in it. However after losing my Defiler two games in a row without it doing anything, I had to change my tactics. Eventually I fought this Tau list and it destroyed me. It wasn't even a Tau net list, it was Tau and Daemons, no riptides stealth suits and all that. After removing 20 Khorne Berzerkers in two turns I decided that if I wished to carry on playing, I needed to try something else.
I brought in FMC and Daemon allies, something I still use now. Typhus, who I had all along, finally came out of his bo and brought zombies with him. My army isn't a netlist by any means. But I haven't had a one sided battle in a long while, I've even gone so far as destroying a DEldar army with my own, wave serpents and all.
I did this because I wanted to have fun with 40k, I've been playing it for years and despite all the complaints it is still a game I like and I enjoy the people I play with. GW sometimes decide that a certain play style is going to be utter pants for a while, so you either deal with losing continuously, or do your best to adapt.
Am actualy ok , at least untile they nerf divination and ally .
And if someone has a weak army , he won't sell the army , because no one will buy it from him .
We have a friend here who just started w40k and everyone told him to not do GK , as in Grey Knight army with Grey Knight not a coteaz henchman spam with ally. He even bought the army in one go , because our GW had finaly had a promotion worth taking part in. He played a few demo games , but now that he has over 1500pts , they don't let him play at the GW store and we kind of don't know what to do with him. No one can play with him without his army being blown up sky high . He is used to playing against double DV set armies and thinks his army is ok.
And I don't buy the "pity me my army is too strong" schtick either. There are plenty of ways to build a coteaz henchmen list, including a practically infinite number that don't involve building it the strongest way possible.
If the person was banned from a GW store while playing GK it is, far, far, FAR more likely that they were banned from the GW store because they were being a giant donkey-cave and driving away customers. Something you can do regardless of if you play GK or not.
Inverse, I have an above table top quality painted Draigowing with full conversions on every model that goes with a custom theme and back story of the army.
So it's someone being an ass if they bring that to the table even though they made it something unique, one of a kind?
Same goes for many other fluffy armies such as White Scars Bikers, Jetseers, FMC spam daemons or nids, etc. The onus for the game working is on the creator. Making players be the bad guys for building and bringing what they want only alienates players or makes their purchases feel like they were wasted.
TheKbob wrote:So it's someone being an ass if they bring that to the table even though they made it something unique, one of a kind?
No.
Just painting one's models doesn't prevent someone from being an ass, though. "But I wrote a backstory" isn't going to be much of an excuse if you're no fun to play with.
Pretty sure there's more to the story of this guy being kicked out of GW than we're being told. They love money too much (rah rah GW hate, get over it, they're a company, of course they love money, we can't criticise them for that) to kick out a customer.
TheKbob wrote:So it's someone being an ass if they bring that to the table even though they made it something unique, one of a kind?
No.
Just painting one's models doesn't prevent someone from being an ass, though. "But I wrote a backstory" isn't going to be much of an excuse if you're no fun to play with.
They're not going to kick someone out for being "no fun" though, they'll kick you out if you're being a dick.
Well if anyone of us plays him , he will get beaten hard . He likes Grey Knights , he has 0 inqusition stuff in his army . No coteaz , no henchman , no normal inq . Just power armored and terminator armored GK , a Raven , two NKDs , he has two or three razorbacks too. He wouldn't get in to melee range with any of our armies and he can't win shoting.
Pretty sure there's more to the story of this guy being kicked out of GW than we're being told. They love money too much (rah rah GW hate, get over it, they're a company, of course they love money, we can't criticise them for that) to kick out a customer.
Well he played at the GW store , we didn't even know he started playing . Everything was ok till he was buying 1-2 things each week and painting them. But in feb he had the 1500 points , played a few time andsoon each time he went to play at the GW , the red shirts there told him that the tables were set up for promo games or that they want to show new people the game . That is why he started looking for a new place to play.
And no he doesn't play Draigo wing. He doesn't like to use named characters.
Yeah, I think opponents who routinely smash "weak" or "fluff" lists with power lists are really missing out on an enjoyable part of the game. If you know your opponent can't or won't bring a strong list, then why not bring a sub par list yourself and try and beat him using good generalship and tactics instead of your flavour of the month power list. Ok it might not be your cup of tea, but give it a try - you might enjoy it. It's more fun saying " great game I still beat you even without my riptides" than " yeah I smashed you with triptide again, you should buy some drop pods if you ever want to beat me"
liquidjoshi wrote: Tone down your list. If he can't bring a list that won't get "beaten hard", then don't bring a list that will beat him hard. Bring a softer list.
See that is the problem. Most of us own 1500 armies , two people have enough to build a 1999 army or a 1500 army . We can't tone down anything , unless we take less points then him . And I don't even know how that should work with some armies .
If you know your opponent can't or won't bring a strong list, then why not bring a sub par list yourself and try and beat him using good generalship and tactics instead of your flavour of the month power list
That maybe an argument in places where people do impulse buying or play for decades and have milion of points. Most people here have 1 list , few have more then 1 and some old timer veterans have more then one army , and most of them are strickt tournament lists they don't bring with themselfs unless there is a tournament.
My list looks mostly like this right now .
Coteaz , 30man IG blob with priest 3xAutocannon and plasma guns . 2 units of veterans with plasmaguns one in a vendetta another one has a chimer . A CSS , 2 psykers , 2 russes . only other models I have are more vets , a second vendetta , a second chimera.
My boyfriend has a classic baronstar and our other friend plays either seerstar or FMC builds , he is the one who has the option to play 1999pts.
We have a fourth friend who plays centstar with coteaz , buffmander and tigurius , some scouts , some kroots and a riptide and a stormtalon.
Non of us owns any other models or any other army .
The GK player has 4 units of ten GK with magnetised weapons . 2 two ten man terminator units , 1 storm raven , 1 librarian , 1 Space Marine Cmd in terminator armor who is his chapter master or brother capting , 2 NKDs and 3 razorbacks . I think he also has a land raider , but it may be unpainted or unbuild.
If it's that bad, use counts as. Count your guardsmen as veterans, make them footslog. If the veterans look different enough, use them as Stormtroopers. Make the autocannons into a heavy weapon team. Use the Vendetta as a Valkyrie. Use a different variant of Russ, or take one of everything, or - you get the idea. Count Coteaz as a Commisar or something. IDK. Point is, you're not stuck with anything, and if it's the same situation with all of your group, then playing counts as is probably welcome news. It lets you try before you buy, mix up your lists, and so on.
Ah, that would be because we've gone rather horribly off topic.
With regards to your list, you really have two options:
1) Change your list so it's tougher. You can do this without too much hassle by adding things like Rhinos, but sadly Khorne marines don't punch so hard any more.
2) Find opponents with easier lists. Either get your opponents to play softer lists with more "fluffy" units (as opposed to, say, three Riptides), or if they won't step down from such a high mark, find different opponents.
Again, it would help to know what kinds of armies you frequently play against. Your list so far isn't too hard to change either (add a couple of Rhinos to start, and a bit of long range firepower. That should help.)
Back on topic. Plain and simple, run whatever list you like, but be warned; your favorite units are not always going to be the best units. You have to decide for yourself if you like winning more, or fielding models that you like. Personally I try to find a happy medium of both. If you dont like boxing up your well painted models on turn one, you might have field something you may not like as much, but lasts longer on the table.
I'll give you an example in the form of a game of Black Jack. You may enjoy the thrill of "hitting" when you have17, trying to get that perfect 21, but if you also enjoy winning money you might have "stay" instead.
I play mono-competitive (which i'm assuming is a thing), so basically i mostly play firendly is that i convert and use what units i want, as long as they're not cataclysmically garbage (mutilators) but i won't use something too powerful units (HellTurkey). In saying that i still use nurglite daemon princes with wings and a black mace, so i guess i'm not all that friendly
calamarialldayerrday wrote: I have becoming completely confused. I made this thread and I don't know what it's about anymore.
Since there is a new iteration of the main rules coming out soon, units that are bad now might be amazing this time next month. Save your money for now.
Build that Bloodthirster first, he's probably the meanest thing on your to do list.
calamarialldayerrday wrote: I'm not a very competitive person by nature, and I'm much more interested in modeling and painting, and the 40k mythology (I refuse to say fluff, it sounds pejorative) than the gaming. However, I am also a very social person, and I've come to realise that gaming adds a social aspect to the game. It lets me meet with like minded people, talk about the models and stories I love, and show off my models. Whenever I take my models into the shop, people come to see what I have today, and they are even impressed by my unpainted stuff.
However, I have come across a problem. Maybe I'm just not very good at the game, or maybe I just have a bad list, but most of my army is dead by my opponent's second shooting phase, and those models I worked tirelessly on for hours each, even the infantry, have to go back in the box after only a few minutes. I want to be able to give them the visibility they deserve, and they look incredible on a battlefield, facing down the enemy, and I think it's such a shame.
How do I deal with this?
Either take a good attitude to it and play a lot more games, or try to figure out how to make a more effective list or better tactics for it. That's pretty much your only options. I get the concern, I've been tabled quickly a few times, but I've learned how to take it in stride (way too much experience). But it does suck when you can't use the models you spent time painting.
So, really, the best option is to just figure out good tactics for your army. Not "list building" so much, because you don't want to move too far way from building and playing the models you enjoy most, and you can still win without relying on some of the list gimmicks people swear by (for example, I don't have a Heldrake for my Chaos Marines, but I've curbstomped opposing armies with them, mainly through sheer weight of firepower... they're Iron Warriors; I've also recently found an Eldar army without Wave Serpents to be effective). If you're interested in just having a chance and being able to stick around on the table long enough to show off your models and not in being some super-competitive tournament winner, you can find ways to be competitive with a wide variety of builds.
I guess the big question then, is... What kind of army are you playing?
Anyway, so that's how I play my guys. They are almost entirely close combat, and I imagine them amongst the ranks of the enemy, slashing throats, dodging panicked gunshots, Daemons flashing in and out of existence, and pure unbridled Chaos.
I have.
1x Chaos Lord
2x Cultists (10 members each)
1x Chosen Marines (6 members)
1x Possessed Marines (5 members)
1x Helbrute
1x Bike Squad (3 members)
1x Maulerfiend
1x Daemon Prince
2x Bloodletters (10 members each)
Waiting to be built I have...
1x Bloodthirster
1x Terminator Lord
1x Terminator Squad (5 members)
1x Chaos Marines (10 members)
1x Rhino
1x Warp Talons/Raptors (5 members, I haven't decided yet which to build)
Well. That's what I get for not scrolling down and reading first.
Hmm... I'd highly recommend building the other squad of Marines and Rhino, and Bloodthirster, too (because he's also pretty fun to paint). That gives you more tactical flexibility and another big guy to scare the bejeebers out of your opponent. The squad sizes are kind of small, you should beef them up over time (which also means more models to show off), that'll give them some survivability. The Terminator Lord and Squad could be handy, would be a nice opportunity for modeling and give you a solid punch.
With what you have assembled, I'd say use the Cultists as a shield (that's what cowards deserve!) to protect your Bloodletters, who should just walk into combat (because Deep Striking in just gets them in good position to die horribly during a turn you can't assault). The Cultists could even be running from the Bloodletters, or running ahead of them to herald the arrival of Khorne's chosen. Daemon Prince, Helbrute and Maulerfiend are good killy stuff, especially close-up, so just run them forward but kind of separated so they don't all die in one series of Ordnance blasts. And the Chaos Marines can just follow behind, either firing their bolters or charging forward. IIRC, the Maulerfiend has a 12" move, so you could run him forward with the bikes. (I get this funny mental image of Chaos Marines on bikes trying to herd a Maulerfiend forward like cowboys directing cattle... I swear I want to try to do that now.)
So that's some ideas that might help you stick around a bit longer while continuing to work within the idea of your army's background.
Of course, it all might change in a couple weeks. But you're playing now, not then.
I played two games on Monday, both of them were polar opposites of each other, and I definitely learned to only play against people who want to play a similar game as me.
The first game was against a Space Marine Grav Gun Spam Force.
My list consisted of...
1x Chaos Lord
2x Cultist Squad
1x Chosen
1x Possessed
1x Maulerfiend
1x Helbrute
1x Bike Squad
1x Rhino
1x Daemon Prince
1x Bloodletters (20 members)
I was facing...
1x Librarian
1x Predator
1x Vindicator
1x Scouts
1x Dreadnought
1x Space Marine Flyer
Various tactical and heavy weapon squads.
I walked into the shop with the intention of finding a partner to play. I'm still new at my shop, so I don't have many contacts, and because of this I still need to turn up and hope there is somebody to play. So, this kid, maybe 15 or 16, asks me if I want to play a game of 40k. I say yes, and he asks what army do I have. Before I can answer he's saying "please don't be Space Marines, please don't be Space Marines." I tell him I play Chaos Daemons/Marines, and he says "Oh good, that means I can beat you."
So, on the advice of this forum, I mentioned that my list isn't very competitive and that my army was almost entirely close combat. I asked if we could play a more narrative, objective based game. He said sure, but continued to talk over me. He positioned his army in the fortifications that were present on the board already. I didn't realise you had to pay points for fortifications, and when someone else brought up the issue later, he said that they were there already, he was just taking advantage of it. I then had to deploy on the far side of an almost open killing field, running towards his gun line.
I eventually convinced him to play a more narrative game, that my Rhino contained a Daemonic book, that when read from inside the imaginary town on the far side of the fortifications would turn all the citizens to Chaos, and they would overrun the Astartes.
The game lasted three turns. In each of my turns, I moved toward him, shooting when I could. I took one hull point from his Predator, and killed one Marine in assault on the third turn.
He shot me to pieces, entirely with save-ignoring weapons. My Daemon Prince, Maulerfiend, and Lord where killed in his first shooting turn. He also immobilised my Rhino, which contained the Book and my squad of Possessed.
As some of you may know, I take great pride in my modeling, and while not all of my pieces are completely constructed and painted, the ones that are look quite impressive if I do say so myself. Several times people came to the table to admire my models, and I thanked them. Each time he would shout over them, and show off one of his Marines that he had haphazardly attached an oversized Dreadnought power fist onto. I'm not sure whether people were just not impressed, or whether they recognised he was being a little gakker, but they just ignored his attempts to show off, which I was quite happy about. I mean, I'm an adult, twenty-four years old, I don't need friends to stand up for me against a fifteen year old, but it felt good anyway.
In my second turn, I attempted to Deep Strike my Bloodletters, but I rolled a 1 and they were lost to the Warp. This started his round of telling everyone in the shop how bad my dice rolls were and about all of my downfalls.
He just proceeded to obliterate me, as all of my shooting and deep striking units were out of action and I had no choice but to walk across the killing fields, hoping something would survive. Plus, in my head, my guys are out for blood and wouldn't dare to hide behind cover, waiting to be hunted out and strike that way.
For the sake of the objective, my Possessed Champion took the Book out of the Rhino and attempted to bring it behind the fortifications. When my Champion was killed, I said that one of the other members of the squad had it. I don't think I was being a sore loser, I was just trying to give myself some chance of winning, trying to return some element of fun to the game. When the whole squad had died, I claimed it was a trick and that it had never left the Rhino which was still alive at this point. He got angry at this point, claiming I played Khorne, not Tzeentch, and this was unfair, but most of the onlookers were supportive of this. Needless to say, I lost.
I won't recount the details of my conversation with a member of staff afterwards as it was probably politically incorrect, but he mostly just told me that I had had a perfect demonstration of why you should only play against like-minded people.
My second battle was much more enjoyable. I played the same list against an Imperial Guard force.
I don't remember his list, but it contained two Leman Russes, several squads of Death Korps of Krieg, and White Scar Bikes.
This was a much more even match, with me gaining an early advantage by destroying both of his Leman Russes in the second turn (I went second). One with my Prince, and one with my Bloodreaper's Hellfire Gaze. However, then his White Scars arrived in reserve and gave him the advantage back. The game had to end after the third turn, because it was closing time, and we deemed it a draw based on kill points and all those other things that I don't understand yet.
There was one particularly fun moment when his command squad were atop a tower terrain piece. The open roof had a hatch, and the bottom had a door. I was attempting to assault with my Bloodletters (who successfully Deep Struck this time, right in the middle of the enemy), but they had gotten right to the front of tower in the movement phase, and even a double one on the dice would have given me enough to charge. So, we imagined that instead of me rolling to charge, I was rolling to see would the elevator come. It did, and I killed everyone except his Commissar.
All in all, it was a much more enjoyable game, and we have agreed to play again. We also discovered that we both used to play 3rd Ed as kids, and will have a game of 3rd Ed too.
Well I will say your attitude gives me hope that maybe I should take up 40k again after all. I love the fluff and the models, I like the "roleplaying" elements (building fluffy lists with backstory, characters with backstory, and so forth).
But the general negativity here and elsewhere on the web about the game itself, the balance (or lack thereof), and the new 7th ed "unbound" nonsense has me concerned maybe I should pick a different game. The problem is Infinity or some such may be a better game, but I find the fluff to be mostly miserable stereotypical shiny anime nonsense, so I'm not sure I could enjoy it.
My only suggestion for your list, based on very limited experience, would be more speed and more screen. Mount more of your units on transports, and use some extra cultists as moving bullet catchers. I don't think either conflicts with your fluff particularly.
I'd actually like to play against you if I ever build my little 500 point Urban Defense Patrol. I imagine a game board that is a city setting and fairly terrain dense. Sadly, I live all the way in California .
calamarialldayerrday wrote: However, I have come across a problem. Maybe I'm just not very good at the game, or maybe I just have a bad list, but most of my army is dead by my opponent's second shooting phase, and those models I worked tirelessly on for hours each, even the infantry, have to go back in the box after only a few minutes. I want to be able to give them the visibility they deserve, and they look incredible on a battlefield, facing down the enemy, and I think it's such a shame.
How do I deal with this?
I'm afraid I do not have your answers but, I think I know someone who does. Check out "Fritz 40k" on Youtube. Watch his videos while you paint. I find that he does good general tactics, psychology tactics and unit breakdowns. He always tries to find a positive use for everything, even if (I think) he doesn't always succeed. A while ago, because of the challenge of playing an assault-based army in a shooty edition, he picked up a Khorne Assault Army and did several videos talking about tactics for that army. I mostly ignored his Khorne videos, though I took notice of some of his advice because I love my (near?) useless Howling Banshees. But if you're new to the game, I think a lot of his advice about moving up the field, "critical mass," "tricknology," ect. will be very useful. I'm getting back into playing the game, and I find his perspective very valuable.
Dying is apart of the game , I just think of all the silly ways my DA died in my head like a movie like for dangerous terrain I picture this massive astartes slipping on like a puddle and scraping his knee super bad lol, don't sweat the little things just let them happen and always remember it's just a game
Alright, got ahead of myself earlier. I've finally finished reading the rest of the posts on this thread. There is some really sound advice on this thread, (and the shrieks of a few bitter crows, who sometimes shriek twisted but useful advice). I should also mention that I like the backstory of your Fallen Chapter (you were looking for an alternative to warband?). Kind of reminds me of what I've read on the Crimson Slaughter, but I don't know to much about them.
If you want my advice, I'd say I've not had a chance to read the CSM codex so I can't give you list building advice. But I suggest that you try proxying or 'counts as' models. Most casual players will allow you to field whatever model you want (with the same sized base, but even then I know people who don't care) and use the rules for a different model. This will allow you to put your lovingly modded/ painted models on the table and try out some of the tactics that were mentioned here by dropping some things and taking others. Or even use unpainted models as proxies to help fill out your squads. Perfect for the advice to add additional un-upgraded flunkes to your Chosen Squad. An example would be, before the new Codex, my IG (now AM? His Regiment was lost in the warp for a while, they might still go by the old name) friend tested out a lot of different tanks in his army using old SM models or similar-bodied IG Tanks. When my Tyranid playing friend was first getting into the game, we let him use quarters (as in the US currency) and spare bases to beef up the size of his Termagant (a troop choice) squads. Only rule was, empty bases got removed first, and if a painted model was to be removed, the painted model was swapped out with an empty base and the marker/ empty base was removed instead (thus keeping the model on the board, now in a different position in the squad).
Alternatively (and as a semi-fluffy player myself, I don't like this one and suspect you won't either, but it's still an option) you can use the 'In everything but name" option, where you take whatever you want from your codex and just claim it's something else. Nurgle Bikers? They're painted Khorne and you say they are wearing Dark-Blessed suits of Khorne's most unbreakable Brass Armor. Chaos Spawn? They're the Terminators in your army who have gone completely mad, who so welcome death that they have damaged their armor (to account for lower saves), and become super-berserkers (more attacks and higher T IIRC). 40k is a big universe, the Warp has many oddities, you can justify just about anything, though it will often rub at least somebody the wrong way. While this option is not the most true-to-fluff option, it is still an option in more casual groups.
There was one particularly fun moment when his command squad were atop a tower terrain piece. The open roof had a hatch, and the bottom had a door. I was attempting to assault with my Bloodletters (who successfully Deep Struck this time, right in the middle of the enemy), but they had gotten right to the front of tower in the movement phase, and even a double one on the dice would have given me enough to charge. So, we imagined that instead of me rolling to charge, I was rolling to see would the elevator come. It did, and I killed everyone except his Commissar.
Awesome story. I love games where you can flesh out minor rules and fluff out everything that happens. It's one of the reasons I got back into the game. I would enjoy reading more, if you're lucky enough to have good games and willing to post the tales.
Azmordean wrote: Well I will say your attitude gives me hope that maybe I should take up 40k again after all. I love the fluff and the models, I like the "roleplaying" elements (building fluffy lists with backstory, characters with backstory, and so forth).
But the general negativity here and elsewhere on the web about the game itself, the balance (or lack thereof), and the new 7th ed "unbound" nonsense has me concerned maybe I should pick a different game. The problem is Infinity or some such may be a better game, but I find the fluff to be mostly miserable stereotypical shiny anime nonsense, so I'm not sure I could enjoy it.
People on the internet are jerks, but I believe are just a vocal minority. Nobody goes online to crusade for 'everything being okay.' The friends I play 40k with are all level-headed, awesome, willing to make up special rules (anybody ever notice DE Harlequins and Eldar Harlequins are different? Not in our gaming group) and none of them post on forums. Might help the 40k community's image of they did.
I used to be like you. A bit more competitive I guess. I got sick of losing and fixed my army. I'm afraid it'll cost you. You can still have a competitive list and be true to Khorne. First thing you need is something that will be in the enemies face ASAP taking fire off your power melee units. I would get two bare bones CSMx10 squads in rhinos, they can do a decent amount of damage too. A land raider for your death-star unit would be beneficial. Everything else moves up trying to uses line of sight blocking cover. And raptors will definitely help.
Alternatively, put everything in rhinos. First turn move them all up 12 and pop smoke. Next turn move 6, unload troops (who fire whatever they can), then "flat out" the rhinos instead of shooting their combi bolters. Do this in a way that blocks line of sight to your troops. They will have no choice but to shoot at empty rhinos. You will probably lose a rhino or two on the way (get the contents behind line of sight blocking cover!), but if you have 5 of them, it's not a huge problem. Turn 3: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!! The guys who lost their rhino can now move up in safety, since most of the enemies army will now be engaged in close combat. Charge multiple units with each unit if you have to. Just get them engaged so they can't shoot at you. And you don't want to wipe out a squad and end up getting shot to pieces on your opponents turn. Another reason to multiple charge or take many small units.
You won't win any tournaments like this, but it'll give you a fighting chance in casual games. Let's hope that any new rules that get added in "6.5 edition" are nice to close combat armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A couple of other things. The Helbrute data slate will help you. You can put cultists in a unit with a Helbrute giving him a 3+ cover save. A cultist dies each time he makes a save. Hilarious AND useful!
Khorne is not against supporting fire. I hear autocannons are pretty Khorney.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, at start of the game I'd say something like: "hey mate I'm all melee. I'll get tabled really quickly if we don't use lots of line of sight blocking terrain. What do you think? Help a brother out."
Kapitan Montag wrote: Yeah, I think opponents who routinely smash "weak" or "fluff" lists with power lists are really missing out on an enjoyable part of the game. If you know your opponent can't or won't bring a strong list, then why not bring a sub par list yourself and try and beat him using good generalship and tactics instead of your flavour of the month power list. Ok it might not be your cup of tea, but give it a try - you might enjoy it. It's more fun saying " great game I still beat you even without my riptides" than " yeah I smashed you with triptide again, you should buy some drop pods if you ever want to beat me"
(Not that I' m bitter or anything!)
This is happening with me at my local store, I brought FOTM lists, Triptide and so forth and I won. I brought the stupidest lists possible then and I still beat them.
Now they dont want to play me because they know they will loose
calamarialldayerrday wrote: I'm not a very competitive person by nature, and I'm much more interested in modeling and painting, and the 40k mythology (I refuse to say fluff, it sounds pejorative) than the gaming. However, I am also a very social person, and I've come to realise that gaming adds a social aspect to the game. It lets me meet with like minded people, talk about the models and stories I love, and show off my models. Whenever I take my models into the shop, people come to see what I have today, and they are even impressed by my unpainted stuff.
However, I have come across a problem. Maybe I'm just not very good at the game, or maybe I just have a bad list, but most of my army is dead by my opponent's second shooting phase, and those models I worked tirelessly on for hours each, even the infantry, have to go back in the box after only a few minutes. I want to be able to give them the visibility they deserve, and they look incredible on a battlefield, facing down the enemy, and I think it's such a shame.
Glad to see that you've found the solution to your problem that works for you. Find people to play against that you enjoy playing against. As someone else who's spent the last two years stuggling to make a pair of power armor assault armies work without sacrificing their soul, I definitely feel your pain.
But I'd ask that you have a little patience with the 15 year old. The obnoxious high school kid in the gaming store is the future of our hobby. If we don't welcome them into the wargaming community and steer them towards being the sort of gamers we want to see as the future of wargaming, they're either going to abandon wargaming which will leave it in a decline it can't recover from, or will change the culture into something you want nothing to do with.
A lot of us old guys who've been playing for 20+ years started as the middle school or high school kid in the gaming store. The old guys of that era were cool to us, and it kept us in wargaming. We owe it to them to pay that forward.
Yeah but we don't owe gak to these little brats who cackle like maniacs everytime their game is going well and cry about cheese everytime they are losing, and refuse to listen to competive logic and complain that armies like Tyranids and Dark Eldar are OP, while playing Tau because "they're the easiest to paint well" and quickly latching on to the fact that spamming Riptides makes up for a lack of playskill.
I don't know about you but I kept it respectful to my elders and tried to learn from my betters. Some deserve the time of day, some haven't earnt it. The price tag of this hobby unfortunately opens it up mostly to the spoiled obnoxious 15 year olds, unlike MTG where anyone can build a deck for $20 and improve from there.
This is an off-the-wall tangent but have you considered role-playing games like Dark Heresy or Black Crusade? That would get you your WH40K fix and you could still use your models (though fewer at once) and you'd be able to see them much more as characters and they would live much longer.
1x Chaos Lord
2x Cultists (10 members each)
1x Chosen Marines (6 members)
1x Possessed Marines (5 members)
1x Helbrute
1x Bike Squad (3 members)
1x Maulerfiend
1x Daemon Prince
2x Bloodletters (10 members each)
Waiting to be built I have...
1x Bloodthirster
1x Terminator Lord
1x Terminator Squad (5 members)
1x Chaos Marines (10 members)
1x Rhino
1x Warp Talons/Raptors (5 members, I haven't decided yet which to build)
I'm presuming you have the DV set here.
Ten man squads of Cultists is an absolute waste of points. If you want to run Cultists and Helbrutes, get the Helbrute dataslate. I run the Helcult dataslate with two squads of 35 cultists, one CCW and one autogun, and as they're fearless they won't run. If the Helbrute dies the CCW get Hatred.
The Chosen from DV are too expensive, but can be useful if you run them close to the CCW cultists.
Possessed marines are potentially the worst unit in the Chaos codex according to the internet, but I have no experience with them.
I can see how this list is dead by shooting phase 2.
Well then I guess you're just going to be disappointed. Hoping for a positive response doesn't mean that one exists. Would you prefer that we lie to you and tell you everything is going to be ok, so that you can play a few more disappointing games before you quit?
Dude! What the hell? Do you want this guy to quit so you can buy his toys or something?
Man, if you're getting tabled all the time you need to change it up a bit. Try a different army, ask one of the guys to trade lists with you and play against your own army. Try proxy and use a different army, see if maybe you have better luck with something fresh. 40k is a game of list building, so get good at that. The List forum here is a great place to theoryhammer new lists, and to get ideas. Also you do need to realize that 40k is a very unforgiving game and if you make a mistake 9 out of 10 opponents will crucify you for it. So don't feel bad at all if you lose! I had a friend who played 40k for like 5 years and never won a game with Chaos Marines, then he switched to Tau and now he's top dog. So, also realize that a lot of it is also army selection, and has nothing as much to do with skill or tactics as it does current edition and tier ranking.
Don't give up 40k just because some jerks on a less than welcoming website dedicated to a game ages 12 and up can't give you any real advice. Try going down to the shop and having a chat with the staff about it, they'll probably be more than happy to help you!
The problem is he has bad units to play a good chaos list , what other advice can there be given , considering that csm aren't a good army to begin with.
Now if he played lets say eldar and was losing over and over again , we could work something out . There are few weak units in the eldar codex and even a random collection can work ok , as long as someone didn't go wild with melee models that aren't seer star.
Also don't tell him to switch to tau , they took a huge hit in 7th. I doubt you want him to end up buying two armies that may not work.
I've no intention of buying a new army. I like my army, I've worked hard on them. Plus, I don't have the money to just go out and buy a new army. That's not how real life works.
