There seems to be a lot of people saying that the option to take 'unforged' army lists will make 40k terribly unbalanced. I'm not convinced. In fact, I think it might things a little more balanced between armies.

How many armies will actually be able to abuse the system?

Tau and Eldar gain almost no benefit; they can already take enough skimmer tanks and jump monstrous creatures to fill a standard list with almost no padding and their troops and HQs are not a 'tax', but actually so good most players will take them even if they don't have to.

Imperial knights get nothing from being able to take an entire army of the same unit; they already do that. With allies and the inquisition already available to them, they don't really need any more options.

So the 'top three' armies don't get much from unbound lists.

Necrons seem to rely on troops for most of their best builds, so they don't gain much.

Astra Militarum pretty much need their troops options, if only as a place to hide their psykers. They already have the ability to fill the rest of their list with tanks and/or fliers. They could take ratlings or bullgryns instead of troops, but I don't think that would be a huge advantage.

Space Marines now have more competitive builds than white scar biker spam. I'm not seeing anything that stands out as significantly more powerful than bikers though. All you really offer is a chance to avoid the 'troop tax'.

Orks can now have proper battlewagon-spam, so long as battlewagons aren't nerfed too hard. This might bring them up to the level of high-tier armies, but I doubt that it will make them as good as a current taudar build. You can make an army with more than two effective biker nob mobs now, but the price is so high that you will be pushing 1,500 points with just two units anyway.

Tyranids can spam their best units, but even their best is only at a similar power level to the bread-and-butter of most armies.

Chaos Daemons can't have more than one screamerstar anyway, because the build relies on an unique artifact and an unique character. All unbound rules gives them is the opportunity to avoid troop tax and spam some more monstrous creatures. That's pretty nasty, but I wouldn't call it a game-breaker.

Dark Angels can field their special units more easily. That helps them, but it's still not going to make them as good as the best armies in the game, is it?

Chaos Space Marines get a huge boost. They can ignore their underwhelming troops and max out on the most effective choices. Still, their only really stand-out abuseable unit is the heldrake and I'm not convinced that there are that many situations where three heldrakes just aren't enough, but six heldrakes will get the job done.

Allies make things more complicated, but most of the really nasty battle-brothers combos seem to already be possible in 6th edition. Few armies want more than one allied force or have enough points to field all their best choices and multiples of their allies best choices. The only one which really stands out to me is chaos-marines and daemons, who can now take a screamerstar and multiple heldrakes without worrying about their sub-par troops.

Tau and Eldar gain almost no benefit; they can already take enough skimmer tanks and jump monstrous creatures to fill a standard list with almost no padding and their troops and HQs are not a 'tax', but actually so good most players will take them even if they don't have to.

Multiple buffmanders . Not being forced to spend points on a ally troops to get the ++2 baron you need for your seer star. Playing with 2 tides and 2 hammerheads without being forced to take Farsight as ally. It saves a lot of points in general for combo armies .

 Perfect Organism wrote:
Necrons seem to rely on troops for most of their best builds, so they don't gain much.

Necrons would gain ability to take more than 6 units of Wraiths, Annihilation Barges, and Spyders and the poop they bring to the table. Also, depending on how "anythijng goes" it would be, the ability to field Crypteks without an Overlord. This might not seem like much, but it would remove a pretty frequent stumbling block list-building-wise.

I don't think it's as much "you don't have to take Troops" as "you can take more than 3 of the Best Units in the Codex".

The lists may be abusable, will all come down to what the victory conditions are though to if they actually work or you have to be a bit more careful to avoid a D-laser to the knee (self inflicted)

Necron rely on their flyers or Wraiths to win games, core is just seen as a "flyer tax" aka min 5 Warriors.

And yes, unbound would mean absolutely, 100% throwing any balance out of the wind.

"Who is the better player?" becomes "Who got more Riptides?"

No, there are good, solid Necron army builds based on Troops choices.

I'd be more concerned about Sisters. Battle Sister squads bring precisely one thing to the table: numbers. But when you can take 2 squads of Retributors for the same price as a squad of 20 Sisters, and their AoF is worthwhile and they can get the BSS reroll from a different method, you're unbalancing the game.

In a way, I've got to admire the purity of it.

In this way people who just want to win will be able to migrate towards THE list, while people who want 40k to be a strategy game just might get it as once there is the THE list established, and everyone starts playing it, then you'll finally have a balanced game as, like chess, everyone will be playing the game with the same pieces.

The best part, too, is that it will allow that kind of insanity to spiral off into its own black hole and finally leave the rest of us alone.

Sorry, I might be behind but, what are these "Unforged" lists that you are talking about?

You recognize that people were able to find strong/abusive builds with the limits of the FOC.

Do you honestly think people won't find MORE strong/abusive builds without that limitation?

Best case scenario, people won't find anything exceptional to abuse and the standard strong builds get an extra bonus TBD.

Worst case scenario, basically all the worst parts of the Bible.

 Ailaros wrote:
In a way, I've got to admire the purity of it.

In this way people who just want to win will be able to migrate towards THE list, while people who want 40k to be a strategy game just might get it as once there is the THE list established, and everyone starts playing it, then you'll finally have a balanced game as, like chess, everyone will be playing the game with the same pieces.

The best part, too, is that it will allow that kind of insanity to spiral off into its own black hole and finally leave the rest of us alone.

If every model on the board is a Queen, you're way closer to playing checkers than you are to playing chess.

Makumba wrote:

Tau and Eldar gain almost no benefit; they can already take enough skimmer tanks and jump monstrous creatures to fill a standard list with almost no padding and their troops and HQs are not a 'tax', but actually so good most players will take them even if they don't have to.

Multiple buffmanders . Not being forced to spend points on a ally troops to get the ++2 baron you need for your seer star. Playing with 2 tides and 2 hammerheads without being forced to take Farsight as ally. It saves a lot of points in general for combo armies .

Multiple buffmanders are not possible because we are limited to only one instance of the buff wargwar

 jasper76 wrote:
If every model on the board is a Queen, you're way closer to playing checkers than you are to playing chess.

Hahah love it. I'd sig it if I did such things.

For me it all comes down to the ‘in-game bonuses’ that Battle-Forged lists get and Unbound don’t. I think we are ignoring this trade-off. I look forward to seeing what 7th brings. If it’s gak, I’ll keep playing 6th.

P.S. Never underestimate the power of massed Necron warriors

jasper76 wrote:If every model on the board is a Queen, you're way closer to playing checkers than you are to playing chess.

I didn't say it would make the game deeper or richer, but people who were just wanting to win or wanting 40k to be a serious strategy game were already making the game shallow to begin with. It's just giving them the power to take things to their logical conclusions, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself. It's what people do when given power that's the problem, not the idea of power itself.

So that group of people gets to have a balanced game as they show up with mirror matches of all queens, and everybody else gets to see at an instant who those kinds of people are, and so can avoid them.

I mean, I'm sure they'll call people who refuse to play unforged a bunch of fluff-nazis that aren't following the rules by fraudulently disallowing their perfectly legal lists, but hopefully one look at what they would try to play will circumvent that "conversation" entirely.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

Makumba wrote:

Tau and Eldar gain almost no benefit; they can already take enough skimmer tanks and jump monstrous creatures to fill a standard list with almost no padding and their troops and HQs are not a 'tax', but actually so good most players will take them even if they don't have to.

Multiple buffmanders . Not being forced to spend points on a ally troops to get the ++2 baron you need for your seer star. Playing with 2 tides and 2 hammerheads without being forced to take Farsight as ally. It saves a lot of points in general for combo armies .

Multiple buffmanders are not possible because we are limited to only one instance of the buff wargwar

Maybe, maybe not. We'll need to see how the "Unforged" rules are written..................

And yes, it can easily be abused far more than any current build.

If you unbalance me do I not bleed?

Seriously, if you have an unbalanced situation and you unbalance it further doesn't it regain...balance?

jamesk1973 wrote:
If you unbalance me do I not bleed?

Seriously, if you have an unbalanced situation and you unbalance it further doesn't it regain...balance?

I think it just falls over...

 Ailaros wrote:

jasper76 wrote:If every model on the board is a Queen, you're way closer to playing checkers than you are to playing chess.

So that group of people gets to have a balanced game as they show up with mirror matches of all queens, and everybody else gets to see at an instant who those kinds of people are, and so can avoid them.

Your perspective of the argument is very warped. It's been repeatedly shown that symetrical gameplay is not required for balance, and no side is asking for it.

 Ailaros wrote:

jasper76 wrote:If every model on the board is a Queen, you're way closer to playing checkers than you are to playing chess.

I didn't say it would make the game deeper or richer, but people who were just wanting to win or wanting 40k to be a serious strategy game were already making the game shallow to begin with. It's just giving them the power to take things to their logical conclusions, which isn't a bad thing in and of itself. It's what people do when given power that's the problem, not the idea of power itself.

So that group of people gets to have a balanced game as they show up with mirror matches of all queens, and everybody else gets to see at an instant who those kinds of people are, and so can avoid them.

I mean, I'm sure they'll call people who refuse to play unforged a bunch of fluff-nazis that aren't following the rules by fraudulently disallowing their perfectly legal lists, but hopefully one look at what they would try to play will circumvent that "conversation" entirely.

Roger that. We (we being my local gaming group) have been moving more towards custom built FOCs anyway (like "Lets play a game with 1 Unnamed HQ, 2 Troops, and 2 Fast Attacks"), so I don't see this "unbound" business having any real impact on the way we game, except maybe these Psyker Phase rumors.

 jasper76 wrote:

jamesk1973 wrote:
If you unbalance me do I not bleed?

Seriously, if you have an unbalanced situation and you unbalance it further doesn't it regain...balance?

I think it just falls over...

So basically the good hard shove that destroys entire rotting tower of corruption.

 goblinking201 wrote:
Sorry, I might be behind but, what are these "Unforged" lists that you are talking about?

I think that it lets you replace troops with other slots? I was trying to figure that out myself.

The newest WD says that there are two ways to make an army now.
Battle forged: Following a standard FOC and gives you a bonus for doing so (unknown at the time)
Unbound: No FOC, bring what ever you want following the allies matrix for units.

This will let you take an entire squad composed of IC battle brothers from any number of codex available or an army of nothing but fortifications.

 Dylanj94 wrote:

 goblinking201 wrote:
Sorry, I might be behind but, what are these "Unforged" lists that you are talking about?

I think that it lets you replace troops with other slots? I was trying to figure that out myself.

Go to the News and Rumor board, and look for the big 80 page thread. The first post has the rumors for Unobound arimes and a new Psyker Phase...all unconfirmed as far as I know.

no because 99% of peopel will play battle forged...

the people who will play unbound will bethe people who WANT to...


and everyone will still hate and hate and hate, because they have nothing better to do.

I'm imagining armies composed of things like single Obliterators/Crisis Suits/Zoanthropes with a couple scoring units just for good measure.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm imagining armies composed of things like single Obliterators/Crisis Suits/Zoanthropes with a couple scoring units just for good measure.

I definitely see this as being common if there are no other limitations. There is just no reason to group those models up, and every reason to keep them separate.

I'm intersted to see what GW thinks will be balancing bonuses for a Battle Forged army to combat Unbound ones though.

I have 6 wraithlords but never really get the chance to use them all. This might let me test out a better elfzilla list that may become a viable option of alot of T8 wounds. 2 wraithknights and 6 wraithlords come out to be 1440 points so it could be interesting. 30 T8 wounds with lots of heavy weapons and with no wraithsight rules I need no warlocks or farseers.

Along side this we have variable turn by turn win conditions which should stand to benefit tac lists over spam, the only thing unbound helps waac players with is asap tabling and most of the time I don't see it happening. As of now we don't have enough info on mission win params and what effect using the WOC actually has.
I think it sounds interesting so im looking forward to it.

An army of all Wave Serpents and Wraithknights.
An army of Heldrakes.
An army of Riptides, led by the SC Riptide.
An army of Screamerstars.
An army of Necron Wraiths.
An army of Flyrants, Tervigons, whatever else.
An army of Nob Bikers.
An army of Grav-Centurions.
An army of Henchman, with no 6 squad limit.
An army of Purifiers, no Crowe tax.
An army of Dreadknights.
An army of Special Characters (awesome though).
An army of Leman Russ Squadrons, Vendettas, and Platoons.
An army of Boyz, with no FOC limit.
Crisis Suits. Crisis Suits everywhere.
Cron Croissant Spam just got bigger. How many Doom Scythes for 1500pts?


The only Codex not effected is Imperial Knights.


Multiple Lords of war? Spamming Superheavies in a regular game? How about 3+ Transcendent C'tan at 1500?

It would be coo , if AM could take multiple command squads to get more orders around . No idea what the forged bonus would have to be to counter people playing unforged.

I'm baffled by so many people NEEDING a rule book to tell them to play without FOC.

Like..really guys? You have never come to the conclusion before that you might just not pay attention to it? Or..play Apocalypse? Oo

 Deadshot wrote:
An army of all Wave Serpents and Wraithknights.

Just pointing out this isn't possible. Units are still limited by their purchaes options, and you can only buy Wave Serpents as DTs for other units.

So you're stuck buying some dudes to go into those Serpents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
I'm baffled by so many people NEEDING a rule book to tell them to play without FOC.

Like..really guys? You have never come to the conclusion before that you might just not pay attention to it? Or..play Apocalypse? Oo

I'm baffled that so many people take it as an affront that this now exists in the game.

Nothing stops you from only playing against Battle Forged armies, same as nothing stopped them from "breaking the rules" before.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
An army of all Wave Serpents and Wraithknights.

Just pointing out this isn't possible. Units are still limited by their purchaes options, and you can only buy Wave Serpents as DTs for other units.

So you're stuck buying some dudes to go into those Serpents.

Even so, Eldar's Troops aren't exactly tax. Hell, take Fire Dragons, or Wraithguard or Harlequins.

 streamdragon wrote:


Nothing stops you from only playing against Battle Forged armies

The problem becomes if this becomes a "standard" thing that you can expect from pickup games, it will make getting games much more difficult.

 Deadshot wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
An army of all Wave Serpents and Wraithknights.

Just pointing out this isn't possible. Units are still limited by their purchaes options, and you can only buy Wave Serpents as DTs for other units.

So you're stuck buying some dudes to go into those Serpents.

Even so, Eldar's Troops aren't exactly tax. Hell, take Fire Dragons, or Wraithguard or Harlequins.

Absolutely true. I just wanted to correct that technicality is all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:


Nothing stops you from only playing against Battle Forged armies

The problem becomes if this becomes a "standard" thing that you can expect from pickup games, it will make getting games much more difficult.

Agreed, and a point I touched on in the News & Rumors discussion. Probably should have crossposted into this thread as well.

The people most hurt, as you said, are people that play mostly pick up games. I'm not sure how much that genuinely changes though, as even in Pick Up Games you can and will (I assume, I don't play in a store) get some truly lopsided matches even with both sides using the FOC. Does Unbound make the chance of a lopsided game higher, probably, yes. (We don't know the 'balancing' rules that GW has for BF vs UB, so I'm trying to avoid definitive answers.) Does that mean 100% of Unbound armies will be absolute beat-down monster nightmares? Probably not. One example was an Ork Bikeboss with a bunch of Buggies to recreate Road Warrior. I can't imagine any army, FOC or not, that would struggle against Warbuggies.

Like I said elsewhere (which I fully understand you may not have seen), I empathise with players who play almost exclusively PUGs. If GW drops the ball on Unbound vs Battle Forged balancing (which given their history is not unlikely) then it can certainly make for some frustrating games. Until we see the "balancing" and the way that the new objectives function, I'm not willing to make the call that Unbound has destroyed game balance though. And mind you, I'm usually against the whole 'wait and see' mentality. (see my posts in the Tyranid Codex or SoB codex rumor threads. )

 Sigvatr wrote:
I'm baffled by so many people NEEDING a rule book to tell them to play without FOC.

Like..really guys? You have never come to the conclusion before that you might just not pay attention to it? Or..play Apocalypse? Oo

This is exactly what I've been thinking. Did putting this in a rulebook really unshackle them? Were they afraid the GW police were going to knock on their door if they played without FOC?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I don't think it's as much "you don't have to take Troops" as "you can take more than 3 of the Best Units in the Codex".

This, we still don't know if Troops will be the only scoring units or not.

 DarkWind wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I don't think it's as much "you don't have to take Troops" as "you can take more than 3 of the Best Units in the Codex".

This, we still don't know if Troops will be the only scoring units or not.

And if that riptide lists tables you at the end of turn 3, you won't have anyone left to score, so it won't matter.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 DarkWind wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I don't think it's as much "you don't have to take Troops" as "you can take more than 3 of the Best Units in the Codex".

This, we still don't know if Troops will be the only scoring units or not.

And if that riptide lists tables you at the end of turn 3, you won't have anyone left to score, so it won't matter.

Let's see those riptides table my 125 squads of three henchmen!

If you supported 6th edition you were naive. If you support these rumored/confirmed changes to come with 7th, you are a plain idiot.

40k has been dwindling fast over the last year in the NY Metro Area and this looks like the final nail in the coffin. I am so disappointed.

Theoretically getting rid of the FOC isn't really that unbalanced as long as you have a classic 0-3 or 0-6 restriction per unit rather than per slot. It opens up some fluffy lists, like being able to create a true 1st company of vets or an allied deathwatch killteam of sternguard+ captain. Unfortunately, GW has shown minimal interest or competency in balance, which means there is a significant chance that they really will just blow the whole system to pieces.

You guys are thinking too small. Fortification spam.

10 man Kroot squads with ADL and lascannons cost 155 points.

Get enough walls to make deepstriking impossible on your half of the field. Kroot infiltrate to limit reserves as much as possible or spaced out between the defense lines as much as possible.

I'm actually thinking of doing this now.

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 DarkWind wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I don't think it's as much "you don't have to take Troops" as "you can take more than 3 of the Best Units in the Codex".

This, we still don't know if Troops will be the only scoring units or not.

And if that riptide lists tables you at the end of turn 3, you won't have anyone left to score, so it won't matter.

Let's see those riptides table my 125 squads of three henchmen!

That sounds like an incredibly stupid game.

Yonan wrote: It's been repeatedly shown that symetrical gameplay is not required for balance.

It's been postulated and asserted. Never proven.

No sense comparing anything real to some imaginary perfect that doesn't exist.

jamesk wrote:

jasper76 wrote:

jamesk1973 wrote:If you unbalance me do I not bleed?

Seriously, if you have an unbalanced situation and you unbalance it further doesn't it regain...balance?

I think it just falls over...

So basically the good hard shove that destroys entire rotting tower of corruption.

Only for those people who see 40k as a serious strategy game.

As mentioned, though, it makes it easier, not harder, for those kinds of people to have a balanced game.

Vaktathi wrote:I'm imagining armies composed of things like single Obliterators/Crisis Suits/Zoanthropes with a couple scoring units just for good measure.

Or possibly not even that.

You don't need scoring units to win a game of 40k, you just need enough units that can contest objectives to shove it over to who got first blood. Or just enough to kill your opponent's scoring units, which will shove it over to who got first blood. Plus, if you table your opponent, you always win the game anyways...

 Ailaros wrote:
Or possibly not even that.

You don't need scoring units to win a game of 40k, you just need enough units that can contest objectives to shove it over to who got first blood. Or just enough to kill your opponent's scoring units, which will shove it over to who got first blood. Plus, if you table your opponent, you always win the game anyways...

Keep in mind that the new objective system for the new missions do not seem to have this limitation. You get objective cards that seem to apply to you as a general, rather than being specific points/objects on the table.

It will be highly abusable and serve to show you pregame which people you do not want to play against.

Oh, you are bringing a WaaC list, no thank you, and don't ask again.

On the flip side you get to play incredibly fluffy armies:
Space Army Aircav with each Valkyrie a separate unit
Valhallan 12th field Artillery(really any Field Artillery regiment)
Any other specialist regiment
Space Marines 10th Company
Any Space Marines Company really
If Allies do not require Battle forged armies, then you can make 3rd edition Iron Warriors(Basic Chaos Space marine force with just Basilisks as Allied IG)
Court of the young King
Dark Eldar Flying Circus
Kroot Mercenaries
Ork Speed Freaks
And many others.

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 DarkWind wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I don't think it's as much "you don't have to take Troops" as "you can take more than 3 of the Best Units in the Codex".

This, we still don't know if Troops will be the only scoring units or not.

And if that riptide lists tables you at the end of turn 3, you won't have anyone left to score, so it won't matter.

Let's see those riptides table my 125 squads of three henchmen!

This. I think the worst part of unbound is going to be MSU abuse. There's absolutely no reason to take large units with unboud as having more units gives the player more "tactical" shooting options (little to no overkill) and makes it hard for the other army to take it down in the 5+ turns we have in a game. How about an army of 37 single Attack Bikes 50/50 multi melta to heavy bolter ratio at 1850? or 26 War Walkers with pretty much any load out you like? Obviously these are worst case scenario type lists, but just for the possibility that these lists exist AS RULE SANCTIONED kinda gets my goat. I've been playing since 3rd and the FOC has always seemed somewhat sacred. Allies was cool, then they went kinda overboard with formations, inquisitors, and knights (IMHO), and now have thrown the whole damn thing out. Lame.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I don't think it's as much "you don't have to take Troops" as "you can take more than 3 of the Best Units in the Codex".

That

Youre right on the Tau one, about all we can do to be uber cheesy is field pure riptides + troops and markerlights. GL killing 5+ riptides with 1750pts of stuff lol. Outside that, nothing all that broken. I dont think the "unforged" would allow us to have multiple buffmanders since thats not a FOC thing thats a "per army" thing, and double foc is still 1 army (unless i am totally misunderstanding the "unforged" terminology here)

Other army i play is Orks, and usually my FA or my Heavy is stressed because of only 3 available slots. Technically my elites are never filled as every Nob unit has a boss to become troops, and its too expensive to bring more than 3 nob units (hell even 2 is nuts on the price range). However if i could field 3 battlewagons AND some Looted Wagons AND some Kannons, you'd be HATING me quick lol. Ork costs + no foc = i will spam the hell out of a lot of stuff you normally ignore because i cannot get enough of it, or it plus good side units, to be a real threat.

 Deadshot wrote:
Multiple Lords of war? Spamming Superheavies in a regular game? How about 3+ Transcendent C'tan at 1500?

I'd have to look at home, but I think the best build for a T-C'tan is something over 800 points. Still, in a 2000 list, it's possible to get two of them and a Shard. It's a C'tan Super Best Friends Force.

Yes, 2 D-weapons will cost you just about 800 points for the C'tan.

On the one hand I am not looking forward to a riptide and buffmander lists. On the other hand I am drooling at the prospect of all of my Vanquishers having BS4 and Beast Hunter shells.

That and a Revenant titan. Why is a lone Revenant titan helping out the Imperial Guard? feth if we know.

It's starting to feel less like a wargame and more like nine year olds playing "war."
"I shot you!"
"Nuh uh! I have an invisible cloak. I shot you!"
"Well I had industructable armor!"
"Well I have bullets that can kill anything!"

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 DarkWind wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I don't think it's as much "you don't have to take Troops" as "you can take more than 3 of the Best Units in the Codex".

This, we still don't know if Troops will be the only scoring units or not.

And if that riptide lists tables you at the end of turn 3, you won't have anyone left to score, so it won't matter.

Let's see those riptides table my 125 squads of three henchmen!

This. I think the worst part of unbound is going to be MSU abuse. There's absolutely no reason to take large units with unboud as having more units gives the player more "tactical" shooting options (little to no overkill) and makes it hard for the other army to take it down in the 5+ turns we have in a game. How about an army of 37 single Attack Bikes 50/50 multi melta to heavy bolter ratio at 1850? or 26 War Walkers with pretty much any load out you like? Obviously these are worst case scenario type lists, but just for the possibility that these lists exist AS RULE SANCTIONED kinda gets my goat. I've been playing since 3rd and the FOC has always seemed somewhat sacred. Allies was cool, then they went kinda overboard with formations, inquisitors, and knights (IMHO), and now have thrown the whole damn thing out. Lame.

I'm Fine with that. MSU abuse goes 2 ways; it takes multiple turns to kill them all(often far more turns than the game allows), but you can focus on the objectives more. Kill the units coming for your objectives or huddled around their objectives; then ignore the rest, 125 3-man henchmen are not going to cause that much damage even if they are all outfirtted with a roughly 50/50 mix of Melta/Plas(which leaves quite a few points), if they are pretty much any other models within the units they do even less damage over most of the game. Not to mention every henchman other than the crusader is made of tissue paper and gore.

37 Single attack bikes? Take pot shots at them with your scoring units and take all the objectives.

Unit destruction VP scenario, just shake your opponents hand and say good game, every unit you have should drop a unit and gain a VP every turn.

26 War Walkers? More with the score objectives and take pot-shots. Multi-charge any near each other and laugh at how they can niether shoot nor effectively kill the engaged units.

MSU Moderate to good quality troops are the only real issue. SM 6th and 7th companies are an issue since that can be 20 5-man tac squads with roughly 10 points per unit in special/heavy weapons(but you can get the same effect with 10 full tac squads with 30 points in special/heavy weapons combat squadded).

Unit restrictions/sizes/requirements/detachments all still exist with unbound armies; this is stated in the WD.

 MWHistorian wrote:
It's starting to feel less like a wargame and more like nine year olds playing "war."
"I shot you!"
"Nuh uh! I have an invisible cloak. I shot you!"
"Well I had industructable armor!"
"Well I have bullets that can kill anything!"

I love you

 streamdragon wrote:
I'm baffled that so many people take it as an affront that this now exists in the game.

Nothing stops you from only playing against Battle Forged armies, same as nothing stopped them from "breaking the rules" before.

Because I'd rather not have a personal argument with every person I play. Most people try to avoid negative social interaction, and any discussion that starts with "I'm not going to play against that" is never a fun one.
If that list is illegal per a common set of pre-determined rules, one side of the argument wins pretty handily, cause it's the rules. But if someone brings a legal list, my objection is purely based on my personal preference, and the resulting conclusion of the argument (regardless of whether it actually concludes or not) is that one of us is either a jerk or a coward.

Being forced into an awkward debate about whether or not you'll play against another grown man's toy soldiers is something most people are not looking forward to experiencing on a semi-regular basis.

Nobody knows what the bound army bonuses will be yet, they could be huge if playing unbound.

MSU doesn't prevent you from focusing your army. You can still have good force concentration with MSU. The only difference is that you have a lot more flexibility.

Anyways, I could easily see plenty of MSU spam. A henchmen army where you were fielding a foot horde except everyone has a meltagun as their small arm?

... yeah.

In my meta I reckon it's a good thing. A Lot of the time we come up with a theme such as 'imperial city fallen to chaos' or some such, make up a story about why our army is there and then write a list. Due to how we play this could be pretty cool in allowing fluffy and imaginative army creations and also I'd like to see the FOC bonuses. I'm not going to lie I'm a little excited. But then I don't play tournaments outside my group and am only really thinking in context of how I play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As I finished writing my post I realised...
I could finally ally in and use various different codex's troop types to field my extremely short and bearded miniatures from rogue trader era as a legal (sort of) force if rumours are to be believed. I am now all for this unbound nonsense and will be buying 7th on release day. The possibilities...

 Perfect Organism wrote:
How many armies will actually be able to abuse the system?

If it's applied to allies too, I'd say : all of them.

If not applicable to allies, all of them, except Imperial Knights and maybe Sisters of Battle.

On the other hand, it would also allow you to field a grot army : grots, killa kanz, grots, moar grots, grots everywhere. Without being limited to 6 units of troops.

But I don't know one player that wouldn't already be willing to bend the FOC rules to play against a full-grot army.

Litcheur wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:
How many armies will actually be able to abuse the system?

If it's applied to allies too, I'd say : all of them.

If not applicable to allies, all of them, except Imperial Knights and maybe Sisters of Battle.

On the other hand, it would also allow you to field a grot army : grots, killa kanz, grots, moar grots, grots everywhere. Without being limited to 6 units of troops.

But I don't know one player that wouldn't already be willing to bend the FOC rules to play against a full-grot army.

If you have forgeworld, you can use Grot tanks for even more grots!

I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

Weapon:

Force feed opponent your BRB.

S: Hospitalization.

AP: Ignores all saves.

Range: Arm's length.

Assault in the fifth degree.

 throwoff wrote:
Nobody knows what the bound army bonuses will be yet, they could be huge if playing unbound.

Or they could be the usual GW "bonuses" that make competent players wonder WTH they are thinking.


RIP Pick-up game 1987-2014.

Makumba wrote:

Tau and Eldar gain almost no benefit; they can already take enough skimmer tanks and jump monstrous creatures to fill a standard list with almost no padding and their troops and HQs are not a 'tax', but actually so good most players will take them even if they don't have to.

Multiple buffmanders . Not being forced to spend points on a ally troops to get the ++2 baron you need for your seer star. Playing with 2 tides and 2 hammerheads without being forced to take Farsight as ally. It saves a lot of points in general for combo armies .

I doubt unforged lists will be able to take more than 1 unique item anyway. So there will be no multiple buffmanders.

I agree chaos got the hugest boost. Alof of their best units are in Fast attack. Being able to take 3 Helldrakes and 3 full squads of Nurgle Spawn and 3 units of Nurgle bikes will be a huge benifit to them.

 Deadshot wrote:

An army of Boyz, with no FOC limit.


?

I would so love to see that!

Over and over I am amazed how people come up with a list of "OP armies" that will happen because of unbound rules, not realizing half of them are already doable within the limits of the FOC as it stands now, half the remaining are instant-lose tickets, and the rest are usually not possible even unbound (someone threw 3 ascendant ctan in 1500 points-HOW? they cost minimum 645 with the WEAKEST setup)

 BoomWolf wrote:
Over and over I am amazed how people come up with a list of "OP armies" that will happen because of unbound rules, not realizing half of them are already doable within the limits of the FOC as it stands now, half the remaining are instant-lose tickets, and the rest are usually not possible even unbound (someone threw 3 ascendant ctan in 1500 points-HOW? they cost minimum 645 with the WEAKEST setup)

It was 2 Ascendant and 1 Shard c:

Over and over I am amazed how people come up with condescending posts talking down to other posters whilst being wrong.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 DarkWind wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I don't think it's as much "you don't have to take Troops" as "you can take more than 3 of the Best Units in the Codex".

This, we still don't know if Troops will be the only scoring units or not.

And if that riptide lists tables you at the end of turn 3, you won't have anyone left to score, so it won't matter.

Let's see those riptides table my 125 squads of three henchmen!

This. I think the worst part of unbound is going to be MSU abuse. There's absolutely no reason to take large units with unboud as having more units gives the player more "tactical" shooting options (little to no overkill) and makes it hard for the other army to take it down in the 5+ turns we have in a game. How about an army of 37 single Attack Bikes 50/50 multi melta to heavy bolter ratio at 1850? or 26 War Walkers with pretty much any load out you like? Obviously these are worst case scenario type lists, but just for the possibility that these lists exist AS RULE SANCTIONED kinda gets my goat. I've been playing since 3rd and the FOC has always seemed somewhat sacred. Allies was cool, then they went kinda overboard with formations, inquisitors, and knights (IMHO), and now have thrown the whole damn thing out. Lame.

Abuse it until your opponent draws a card that says vp for every kp this turn and he drops 10 large blasts and comes out 30 vp's richer.

Haha yeah if you happened to run into a KP scenario while fielding 125 units of henchmen you'd probably be in some trouble, but luckily I don't own 375 guardsmen/acolytes and will never run into this problem. That look on your opponent's face during deployment would be priceless though.

I would be tempted to run about 12-15 tiny squads of henchmen with at least 1 melta or plasmagun in each and sprint them at my enemy. You'd have to think at least a few are going to get there, and if they don't your opponent just wasted a ton of his shooting on 22 point squads of scrubs.

kingleir wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 rabidguineapig wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 DarkWind wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I don't think it's as much "you don't have to take Troops" as "you can take more than 3 of the Best Units in the Codex".

This, we still don't know if Troops will be the only scoring units or not.

And if that riptide lists tables you at the end of turn 3, you won't have anyone left to score, so it won't matter.

Let's see those riptides table my 125 squads of three henchmen!

This. I think the worst part of unbound is going to be MSU abuse. There's absolutely no reason to take large units with unboud as having more units gives the player more "tactical" shooting options (little to no overkill) and makes it hard for the other army to take it down in the 5+ turns we have in a game. How about an army of 37 single Attack Bikes 50/50 multi melta to heavy bolter ratio at 1850? or 26 War Walkers with pretty much any load out you like? Obviously these are worst case scenario type lists, but just for the possibility that these lists exist AS RULE SANCTIONED kinda gets my goat. I've been playing since 3rd and the FOC has always seemed somewhat sacred. Allies was cool, then they went kinda overboard with formations, inquisitors, and knights (IMHO), and now have thrown the whole damn thing out. Lame.

Abuse it until your opponent draws a card that says vp for every kp this turn and he drops 10 large blasts and comes out 30 vp's richer.

If he lasts on the table long enough to draw that card. I'd also like to see 10 large blasts kill 30 war walkers. . .

4 (or 5, depending on which IA you use) lynxs should be...interesting

 MWHistorian wrote:
I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

you dont have to play against unbound,

ever,

any more then someone can force you to play against an APOC army right now, or force you to take 500pts to their 3000pts....

 easysauce wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

you dont have to play against unbound,

ever,

any more then someone can force you to play against an APOC army right now, or force you to take 500pts to their 3000pts....

Correction, you won't have to play against Unbound any more than anyone can force you to play against an army with allies or a fortification right now. It's pretty clear in that WD image that Unbound will be just another legal way to build an army.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

you dont have to play against unbound,

ever,

any more then someone can force you to play against an APOC army right now, or force you to take 500pts to their 3000pts....

Correction, you won't have to play against Unbound any more than anyone can force you to play against an army with allies or a fortification right now. It's pretty clear in that WD image that Unbound will be just another legal way to build an army.

QFT. Turning down games against unbound armies won't really be a big deal at first, just as turning down playing against fliers or allies was nothing out of the ordinary at the beginning of 6th. A year or two into it, however, will be a different story. New players will get into the game never even realizing that a FoC used to be mandatory. Even long time players will warm up to the ideas of absurd combos that can be pulled off with no FoC, just like more and more people are gaming the allies system to get ever more powerful builds onto the table. Not that all players will abuse this, but the possibility for abuse at least seems, at the moment, to be wide, wide open for some god awful army building to happen.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Over and over I am amazed how people come up with a list of "OP armies" that will happen because of unbound rules, not realizing half of them are already doable within the limits of the FOC as it stands now, half the remaining are instant-lose tickets, and the rest are usually not possible even unbound (someone threw 3 ascendant ctan in 1500 points-HOW? they cost minimum 645 with the WEAKEST setup)

It was 2 Ascendant and 1 Shard c:

Actually, I did that. Don't know the points limits. But regardless, a game featuring 2 Transcendent C'tan and a Shard is just asking for trouble.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:
Necrons seem to rely on troops for most of their best builds, so they don't gain much.

Necrons would gain ability to take more than 6 units of Wraiths, Annihilation Barges, and Spyders and the poop they bring to the table. Also, depending on how "anythijng goes" it would be, the ability to field Crypteks without an Overlord. This might not seem like much, but it would remove a pretty frequent stumbling block list-building-wise.

If I recall correctly, the Royal Court rule explicitly states that you need an overlord. The new army composition rules does not change that.

I dont think that army lists will be terribly different in the new ruleset. Troops and HQ do provide benefits for most armies. I would imagine the largest beneficiaries of this new format will be Daemon and Nid players. You thought FMC spam was bad before? Well, prepare to have your mind blown!

A whole army of black knights sounds pretty beast

 MWHistorian wrote:
I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

You can get nine dual-Pulse Laser + Holofield Hornets for 855 pts and three FA slots. 36 S8 AP2 shots at 48" would definitely give those Riptides a bloody nose. Hornets are fragile but it would be far from a walkover for the riptide list.

Spend the rest of your points on Serpents or wraiths or whatever...

This sounds like when one of my younger friends wanted to play Magic with no mana. Just...you had infinite mana every turn, and your 60 card deck was all useful stuff.

I asked him if he actually liked winning a coin flip to go first, and then just saying "I win."

 rabidguineapig wrote:
Haha yeah if you happened to run into a KP scenario while fielding 125 units of henchmen you'd probably be in some trouble, but luckily I don't own 375 guardsmen/acolytes and will never run into this problem. That look on your opponent's face during deployment would be priceless though.

And you'll have a long time to enjoy it as it will take you forever to deploy

But yeah, some of the more extreme armies you wouldn't even have to play the game to know the result.

"game gets VP's only from objective? Ok, I win, see you next week"

"game gets VP's from kill points? Ok, you win, see you next week"

"Unforged" is just a new name for Apocolypse. I wasn't around when the first apocolypse was released but I'd bet the internet was full of "omg gw ruined 40k", "super-heavies will ruin all balance", etc etc.

Unbound won't even be a thing after 7th is released.

Death Star units with no Force Org restrictions will make the game disgusting. You no longer have to think if you want this guy or that guy. You can now take:

Iron Hands Chapter Master (Bike, Shield Eternal, Power Fist, AA)
Clan Rauukan Chapter Master (Bike, Gorgon's Chain, Power Fist, AA)
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, SS, TH, AA, WTT, WTN, SotB)
Rune Priest (Bike, Runic Armor)
Khan (Moondraken)
Command Squad (Grav Guns, SSs, Apoth)

I'm sure you could add more busted stuff into it, but it will be "Hey, find the best battle brothers and dump them into one squad that will never die!" type ordeal. And then take Coteaz and take 20x 3 man henchmen warbands of 3 acolytes each for a grand total of 340 points. So there goes the "you can't score" idea out the window to boot.

 TheKbob wrote:
Death Star units with no Force Org restrictions will make the game disgusting. You no longer have to think if you want this guy or that guy. You can now take:

Iron Hands Chapter Master (Bike, Shield Eternal, Power Fist, AA)
Clan Rauukan Chapter Master (Bike, Gorgon's Chain, Power Fist, AA)
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, SS, TH, AA, WTT, WTN, SotB)
Rune Priest (Bike, Runic Armor)
Khan (Moondraken)
Command Squad (Grav Guns, SSs, Apoth)

I'm sure you could add more busted stuff into it, but it will be "Hey, find the best battle brothers and dump them into one squad that will never die!" type ordeal. And then take Coteaz and take 20x 3 man henchmen warbands of 3 acolytes each for a grand total of 340 points. So there goes the "you can't score" idea out the window to boot.

Well as far as we know you still have to follow the allies matrix which would limit you to either iron hands + space wolves + inquisition or white scars + iron hands + inquisition or white scars + space + inquisition (any of the three are still a little bit ridiculous to me). But yeah I don't like the sound of it so far. That being said, I still think the whole MSU2DAMAX thing will be the undoing of unbound. Also, I'm lucky in the sense that my local group is small and fairly likeminded so I don't think unbound will be making much of a debut.

 goblinking201 wrote:
Sorry, I might be behind but, what are these "Unforged" lists that you are talking about?

Think Apocalypse rules. Bring whatever you want to in any points level.

 Deadshot wrote:
An army of all Wave Serpents and Wraithknights.
An army of Heldrakes.
An army of Riptides, led by the SC Riptide.
An army of Screamerstars.
An army of Necron Wraiths.
An army of Flyrants, Tervigons, whatever else.
An army of Nob Bikers.
An army of Grav-Centurions.
An army of Henchman, with no 6 squad limit.
An army of Purifiers, no Crowe tax.
An army of Dreadknights.
An army of Special Characters (awesome though).
An army of Leman Russ Squadrons, Vendettas, and Platoons.
An army of Boyz, with no FOC limit.
Crisis Suits. Crisis Suits everywhere.
Cron Croissant Spam just got bigger. How many Doom Scythes for 1500pts?


The only Codex not effected is Imperial Knights.


Multiple Lords of war? Spamming Superheavies in a regular game? How about 3+ Transcendent C'tan at 1500?

Land Raiders. Land Raiders everywhere. When so large methul bawkses are so numerous, they block movement from most of the ground units, and saturate 'em with heavy weapons fire. Crusaders/Redeemers will eventually hit fliers with TL assault cannons too. So yeah, come at me, Riptides.

Even though it would screw up, I'd still want to try it again

Sure, people could (and probably will) abuse the Unforged option, but also think of the flexibility it allows in building your army.

You want to reenact the Battle for Macragge? Play your mix of terminators and Sternguard led by a terminator Captain.

You want a Monster Mash Tyranid list? Just pile up those Carnifex.

An army of Blood Angel scouts? Sure, no problem.

Grots grots everywhere.

Abusers abuse the lists anyway, there's nothing you can do about it except just refuse to play like them. That doesn't mean refusing to play them, just place your miniatures, watch them be swept off the table, shrug and say something like, "well that was boring, wasn't it?" Maybe they'll figure out that they're not contributing to a close exciting game.

 Deadshot wrote:
An army of all Wave Serpents and Wraithknights.
An army of Heldrakes.
An army of Riptides, led by the SC Riptide.
An army of Screamerstars.
An army of Necron Wraiths.
An army of Flyrants, Tervigons, whatever else.
An army of Nob Bikers.
An army of Grav-Centurions.
An army of Henchman, with no 6 squad limit.
An army of Purifiers, no Crowe tax.
An army of Dreadknights.
An army of Special Characters (awesome though).
An army of Leman Russ Squadrons, Vendettas, and Platoons.
An army of Boyz, with no FOC limit.
Crisis Suits. Crisis Suits everywhere.
Cron Croissant Spam just got bigger. How many Doom Scythes for 1500pts?


The only Codex not effected is Imperial Knights.


Multiple Lords of war? Spamming Superheavies in a regular game? How about 3+ Transcendent C'tan at 1500?

If I am reading correctly, you also missed Deldar


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sing your life wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

An army of Boyz, with no FOC limit.


?

I would so love to see that!

but you can take a warboss with power klaw and ;eavy armour and 100 boys for 750 points (moving is a hassle though, a huge hassle)

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Sure, people could (and probably will) abuse the Unforged option, but also think of the flexibility it allows in building your army.

You want to reenact the Battle for Macragge? Play your mix of terminators and Sternguard led by a terminator Captain.

You want a Monster Mash Tyranid list? Just pile up those Carnifex.

An army of Blood Angel scouts? Sure, no problem.

Grots grots everywhere.

Abusers abuse the lists anyway, there's nothing you can do about it except just refuse to play like them. That doesn't mean refusing to play them, just place your miniatures, watch them be swept off the table, shrug and say something like, "well that was boring, wasn't it?" Maybe they'll figure out that they're not contributing to a close exciting game.

We should all strive towards driving for an hour, put or tiny plastic baby men on a table with apathy while removing our plastic baby men with great narrative apathy and drive back for an hour, its almost like its not even a hobby.

Eh, what comes will. I'm one of those that believes that things will remain as they are, the cheese bringers will bring cheese, the fluffers with bring their story armies, and the regulars will bring their regular lists. People do not suddenly change the way they play just because a new ruleset dropped

I look forward to seeing some of the lists people make and think that this might cause others to gravitate towards like individuals and lead to a overall more enjoyable scene. Hopefully, I'm not naive but I can hope.

Bishop F Gantry wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Sure, people could (and probably will) abuse the Unforged option, but also think of the flexibility it allows in building your army.

You want to reenact the Battle for Macragge? Play your mix of terminators and Sternguard led by a terminator Captain.

You want a Monster Mash Tyranid list? Just pile up those Carnifex.

An army of Blood Angel scouts? Sure, no problem.

Grots grots everywhere.

Abusers abuse the lists anyway, there's nothing you can do about it except just refuse to play like them. That doesn't mean refusing to play them, just place your miniatures, watch them be swept off the table, shrug and say something like, "well that was boring, wasn't it?" Maybe they'll figure out that they're not contributing to a close exciting game.

We should all strive towards driving for an hour, put or tiny plastic baby men on a table with apathy while removing our plastic baby men with great narrative apathy and drive back for an hour, its almost like its not even a hobby.

If they're quick enough you might even get three or four games of apathy in each period.

The goal is to teach a lesson, hoping that the TFG realizes the error of his ways and moves to a more reasonable build.

 TheKbob wrote:
Death Star units with no Force Org restrictions will make the game disgusting. You no longer have to think if you want this guy or that guy. You can now take:

Iron Hands Chapter Master (Bike, Shield Eternal, Power Fist, AA)
Clan Rauukan Chapter Master (Bike, Gorgon's Chain, Power Fist, AA)
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, SS, TH, AA, WTT, WTN, SotB)
Rune Priest (Bike, Runic Armor)
Khan (Moondraken)
Command Squad (Grav Guns, SSs, Apoth)

I'm sure you could add more busted stuff into it, but it will be "Hey, find the best battle brothers and dump them into one squad that will never die!" type ordeal. And then take Coteaz and take 20x 3 man henchmen warbands of 3 acolytes each for a grand total of 340 points. So there goes the "you can't score" idea out the window to boot.

So, you can sink around a thousand points into one unit which ends up killing half-a-dozen enemy units at best. So long as none of those units are worth more than 150 points, the deathstar isn't earning it's keep. There is a maximum amount that it's possible to sink into a unit and still expect to achieve enough to justify it. Current deathstar builds do OK at around 600 points, but beyond that there are diminishing returns on the investment. Simply piling more expensive models onto an already expensive unit isn't a winning strategy unless your opponent is fielding really expensive things to target with them. I'd rather have a conventional deathstar unit which can hold off pretty much any super-deathstar for a lower cost.

Meanwhile, those three-man acolyte squads are just about perfect for picking off with 60-120 point squads of marines, guardsmen, shoota boys or whatever. There isn't going to be much overkill, because three casualties is a fairly good round of shooting from a unit like that. MSU are probably more abuseable than mega-deathstars, but again there is a limit before the concept starts to fall apart. A bunch of three-acolyte units is going to do no better than an equivalent points value in five man marine squads or ten man guard squads and we can already take dozens of those in a normal FOC.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Death Star units with no Force Org restrictions will make the game disgusting. You no longer have to think if you want this guy or that guy. You can now take:

Iron Hands Chapter Master (Bike, Shield Eternal, Power Fist, AA)
Clan Rauukan Chapter Master (Bike, Gorgon's Chain, Power Fist, AA)
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, SS, TH, AA, WTT, WTN, SotB)
Rune Priest (Bike, Runic Armor)
Khan (Moondraken)
Command Squad (Grav Guns, SSs, Apoth)

I'm sure you could add more busted stuff into it, but it will be "Hey, find the best battle brothers and dump them into one squad that will never die!" type ordeal. And then take Coteaz and take 20x 3 man henchmen warbands of 3 acolytes each for a grand total of 340 points. So there goes the "you can't score" idea out the window to boot.

So, you can sink around a thousand points into one unit which ends up killing half-a-dozen enemy units at best. So long as none of those units are worth more than 150 points, the deathstar isn't earning it's keep. There is a maximum amount that it's possible to sink into a unit and still expect to achieve enough to justify it. Current deathstar builds do OK at around 600 points, but beyond that there are diminishing returns on the investment. Simply piling more expensive models onto an already expensive unit isn't a winning strategy unless your opponent is fielding really expensive things to target with them. I'd rather have a conventional deathstar unit which can hold off pretty much any super-deathstar for a lower cost.

Meanwhile, those three-man acolyte squads are just about perfect for picking off with 60-120 point squads of marines, guardsmen, shoota boys or whatever. There isn't going to be much overkill, because three casualties is a fairly good round of shooting from a unit like that. MSU are probably more abuseable than mega-deathstars, but again there is a limit before the concept starts to fall apart. A bunch of three-acolyte units is going to do no better than an equivalent points value in five man marine squads or ten man guard squads and we can already take dozens of those in a normal FOC.

Dude... Come on.

Mega, super-duper deathstars are the scourge of the tournament scene. O'vesa-star, Seer Council, Beastpack, Farsight Bomb, Centurionstar, Brostar, etc, are all ~1000 point investments. They work by annihilating everything in their path, and then splitting up to contest objectives if necessary.

Torquar wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

You can get nine dual-Pulse Laser + Holofield Hornets for 855 pts and three FA slots. 36 S8 AP2 shots at 48" would definitely give those Riptides a bloody nose. Hornets are fragile but it would be far from a walkover for the riptide list.

Spend the rest of your points on Serpents or wraiths or whatever...

So, your solution to a cheese army is going out and buying an expensive Eldar cheese army?

Do you work for GW?

I have a strong feeling that the allies matrix will change in such a way that the bonus for allies will not be the same as before.

Yeah I'm liking the unforged type of army list, I can now get my mechanicum army off the ground.

Warhound Scout Maniple with turbolasers.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm imagining armies composed of things like single Obliterators/Crisis Suits/Zoanthropes with a couple scoring units just for good measure.

With unbound, there are no scoring units. (unconfirmed.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the bright side, I can bring my Doom Eagle all jet-pack army!!

blaktoof wrote:
I have a strong feeling that the allies matrix will change in such a way that the bonus for allies will not be the same as before.

The allies Matrix has definitely changed. IIRC from the rumours thread, there is a quote that "Space Marines and Tau make a desperate alliance." So it is possible that bonuses have changed too.

IMHO, 100% Yes it will get off the hook crazyness if there are no restrictions. Im not talking force organizations restrictions, i'm talking about unit type restrictions and ally restrictions etc. there are some off the hook combinations possible.

A friend here has won multiple grand tourneys and Ard Boyz, and we've been disscussing these possible ridiculus lists. I can't even understand how he thinks of them. I barly can keep one army straight let alone a sister, guard, inquisitor combo. or single list combos that are off the hook.

Assuming that the Unbound bonus is something only situationally useful, it would be nice to only take one squad of plague marines instead of the mandatory two in smaller games.

Honestly I play for the fluff, not too much for the power/tourney crap. Yeah folks will abuse it if possible, and I know a few folks like that around my FLGS. That being said it just makes for some more cinematic type games which since some of us already do that we can now do it within the rules.

40k is pretty damn fun when you play it just to play, not so much when you play a pick up game with a d-bag that is looking for power plays. Unbound won't really change much for me

18 Rune Priests with Living Lightning. That is all.

 Watchersinthedark wrote:
Honestly I play for the fluff, not too much for the power/tourney crap. Yeah folks will abuse it if possible, and I know a few folks like that around my FLGS. That being said it just makes for some more cinematic type games which since some of us already do that we can now do it within the rules.

40k is pretty damn fun when you play it just to play, not so much when you play a pick up game with a d-bag that is looking for power plays. Unbound won't really change much for me

The problem is that unbound lists don't really assist anyone in improving their experience except the power gamers. Players who wanted to run SM armor columns or IG armored companies were already doing so. Now people can come up with even more broken lists and have it be legal.

 Watchersinthedark wrote:
Honestly I play for the fluff, not too much for the power/tourney crap. Yeah folks will abuse it if possible, and I know a few folks like that around my FLGS. That being said it just makes for some more cinematic type games which since some of us already do that we can now do it within the rules.

40k is pretty damn fun when you play it just to play, not so much when you play a pick up game with a d-bag that is looking for power plays. Unbound won't really change much for me

I like how you imply that you are a fun player, but refer to people that approach the game in a different manner as "d-bags."

Classy.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Necron rely on their flyers or Wraiths to win games, core is just seen as a "flyer tax" aka min 5 Warriors.

And yes, unbound would mean absolutely, 100% throwing any balance out of the wind.

"Who is the better player?" becomes "Who got more Riptides?"

Basically, it will boil down to competitive 40k being ruled as to if unbound lists are allowed or not. Or they will say "battle forged" lists only