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Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Sure, people could (and probably will) abuse the Unforged option, but also think of the flexibility it allows in building your army.

You want to reenact the Battle for Macragge? Play your mix of terminators and Sternguard led by a terminator Captain.

You want a Monster Mash Tyranid list? Just pile up those Carnifex.

An army of Blood Angel scouts? Sure, no problem.

Grots grots everywhere.

Abusers abuse the lists anyway, there's nothing you can do about it except just refuse to play like them. That doesn't mean refusing to play them, just place your miniatures, watch them be swept off the table, shrug and say something like, "well that was boring, wasn't it?" Maybe they'll figure out that they're not contributing to a close exciting game.

We should all strive towards driving for an hour, put or tiny plastic baby men on a table with apathy while removing our plastic baby men with great narrative apathy and drive back for an hour, its almost like its not even a hobby.

Eh, what comes will. I'm one of those that believes that things will remain as they are, the cheese bringers will bring cheese, the fluffers with bring their story armies, and the regulars will bring their regular lists. People do not suddenly change the way they play just because a new ruleset dropped

I look forward to seeing some of the lists people make and think that this might cause others to gravitate towards like individuals and lead to a overall more enjoyable scene. Hopefully, I'm not naive but I can hope.

Bishop F Gantry wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Sure, people could (and probably will) abuse the Unforged option, but also think of the flexibility it allows in building your army.

You want to reenact the Battle for Macragge? Play your mix of terminators and Sternguard led by a terminator Captain.

You want a Monster Mash Tyranid list? Just pile up those Carnifex.

An army of Blood Angel scouts? Sure, no problem.

Grots grots everywhere.

Abusers abuse the lists anyway, there's nothing you can do about it except just refuse to play like them. That doesn't mean refusing to play them, just place your miniatures, watch them be swept off the table, shrug and say something like, "well that was boring, wasn't it?" Maybe they'll figure out that they're not contributing to a close exciting game.

We should all strive towards driving for an hour, put or tiny plastic baby men on a table with apathy while removing our plastic baby men with great narrative apathy and drive back for an hour, its almost like its not even a hobby.

If they're quick enough you might even get three or four games of apathy in each period.

The goal is to teach a lesson, hoping that the TFG realizes the error of his ways and moves to a more reasonable build.

 TheKbob wrote:
Death Star units with no Force Org restrictions will make the game disgusting. You no longer have to think if you want this guy or that guy. You can now take:

Iron Hands Chapter Master (Bike, Shield Eternal, Power Fist, AA)
Clan Rauukan Chapter Master (Bike, Gorgon's Chain, Power Fist, AA)
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, SS, TH, AA, WTT, WTN, SotB)
Rune Priest (Bike, Runic Armor)
Khan (Moondraken)
Command Squad (Grav Guns, SSs, Apoth)

I'm sure you could add more busted stuff into it, but it will be "Hey, find the best battle brothers and dump them into one squad that will never die!" type ordeal. And then take Coteaz and take 20x 3 man henchmen warbands of 3 acolytes each for a grand total of 340 points. So there goes the "you can't score" idea out the window to boot.

So, you can sink around a thousand points into one unit which ends up killing half-a-dozen enemy units at best. So long as none of those units are worth more than 150 points, the deathstar isn't earning it's keep. There is a maximum amount that it's possible to sink into a unit and still expect to achieve enough to justify it. Current deathstar builds do OK at around 600 points, but beyond that there are diminishing returns on the investment. Simply piling more expensive models onto an already expensive unit isn't a winning strategy unless your opponent is fielding really expensive things to target with them. I'd rather have a conventional deathstar unit which can hold off pretty much any super-deathstar for a lower cost.

Meanwhile, those three-man acolyte squads are just about perfect for picking off with 60-120 point squads of marines, guardsmen, shoota boys or whatever. There isn't going to be much overkill, because three casualties is a fairly good round of shooting from a unit like that. MSU are probably more abuseable than mega-deathstars, but again there is a limit before the concept starts to fall apart. A bunch of three-acolyte units is going to do no better than an equivalent points value in five man marine squads or ten man guard squads and we can already take dozens of those in a normal FOC.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Death Star units with no Force Org restrictions will make the game disgusting. You no longer have to think if you want this guy or that guy. You can now take:

Iron Hands Chapter Master (Bike, Shield Eternal, Power Fist, AA)
Clan Rauukan Chapter Master (Bike, Gorgon's Chain, Power Fist, AA)
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, SS, TH, AA, WTT, WTN, SotB)
Rune Priest (Bike, Runic Armor)
Khan (Moondraken)
Command Squad (Grav Guns, SSs, Apoth)

I'm sure you could add more busted stuff into it, but it will be "Hey, find the best battle brothers and dump them into one squad that will never die!" type ordeal. And then take Coteaz and take 20x 3 man henchmen warbands of 3 acolytes each for a grand total of 340 points. So there goes the "you can't score" idea out the window to boot.

So, you can sink around a thousand points into one unit which ends up killing half-a-dozen enemy units at best. So long as none of those units are worth more than 150 points, the deathstar isn't earning it's keep. There is a maximum amount that it's possible to sink into a unit and still expect to achieve enough to justify it. Current deathstar builds do OK at around 600 points, but beyond that there are diminishing returns on the investment. Simply piling more expensive models onto an already expensive unit isn't a winning strategy unless your opponent is fielding really expensive things to target with them. I'd rather have a conventional deathstar unit which can hold off pretty much any super-deathstar for a lower cost.

Meanwhile, those three-man acolyte squads are just about perfect for picking off with 60-120 point squads of marines, guardsmen, shoota boys or whatever. There isn't going to be much overkill, because three casualties is a fairly good round of shooting from a unit like that. MSU are probably more abuseable than mega-deathstars, but again there is a limit before the concept starts to fall apart. A bunch of three-acolyte units is going to do no better than an equivalent points value in five man marine squads or ten man guard squads and we can already take dozens of those in a normal FOC.

Dude... Come on.

Mega, super-duper deathstars are the scourge of the tournament scene. O'vesa-star, Seer Council, Beastpack, Farsight Bomb, Centurionstar, Brostar, etc, are all ~1000 point investments. They work by annihilating everything in their path, and then splitting up to contest objectives if necessary.

Torquar wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

You can get nine dual-Pulse Laser + Holofield Hornets for 855 pts and three FA slots. 36 S8 AP2 shots at 48" would definitely give those Riptides a bloody nose. Hornets are fragile but it would be far from a walkover for the riptide list.

Spend the rest of your points on Serpents or wraiths or whatever...

So, your solution to a cheese army is going out and buying an expensive Eldar cheese army?

Do you work for GW?

I have a strong feeling that the allies matrix will change in such a way that the bonus for allies will not be the same as before.

Yeah I'm liking the unforged type of army list, I can now get my mechanicum army off the ground.

Warhound Scout Maniple with turbolasers.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm imagining armies composed of things like single Obliterators/Crisis Suits/Zoanthropes with a couple scoring units just for good measure.

With unbound, there are no scoring units. (unconfirmed.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the bright side, I can bring my Doom Eagle all jet-pack army!!

blaktoof wrote:
I have a strong feeling that the allies matrix will change in such a way that the bonus for allies will not be the same as before.

The allies Matrix has definitely changed. IIRC from the rumours thread, there is a quote that "Space Marines and Tau make a desperate alliance." So it is possible that bonuses have changed too.

IMHO, 100% Yes it will get off the hook crazyness if there are no restrictions. Im not talking force organizations restrictions, i'm talking about unit type restrictions and ally restrictions etc. there are some off the hook combinations possible.

A friend here has won multiple grand tourneys and Ard Boyz, and we've been disscussing these possible ridiculus lists. I can't even understand how he thinks of them. I barly can keep one army straight let alone a sister, guard, inquisitor combo. or single list combos that are off the hook.

Assuming that the Unbound bonus is something only situationally useful, it would be nice to only take one squad of plague marines instead of the mandatory two in smaller games.

Honestly I play for the fluff, not too much for the power/tourney crap. Yeah folks will abuse it if possible, and I know a few folks like that around my FLGS. That being said it just makes for some more cinematic type games which since some of us already do that we can now do it within the rules.

40k is pretty damn fun when you play it just to play, not so much when you play a pick up game with a d-bag that is looking for power plays. Unbound won't really change much for me

18 Rune Priests with Living Lightning. That is all.

 Watchersinthedark wrote:
Honestly I play for the fluff, not too much for the power/tourney crap. Yeah folks will abuse it if possible, and I know a few folks like that around my FLGS. That being said it just makes for some more cinematic type games which since some of us already do that we can now do it within the rules.

40k is pretty damn fun when you play it just to play, not so much when you play a pick up game with a d-bag that is looking for power plays. Unbound won't really change much for me

The problem is that unbound lists don't really assist anyone in improving their experience except the power gamers. Players who wanted to run SM armor columns or IG armored companies were already doing so. Now people can come up with even more broken lists and have it be legal.

 Watchersinthedark wrote:
Honestly I play for the fluff, not too much for the power/tourney crap. Yeah folks will abuse it if possible, and I know a few folks like that around my FLGS. That being said it just makes for some more cinematic type games which since some of us already do that we can now do it within the rules.

40k is pretty damn fun when you play it just to play, not so much when you play a pick up game with a d-bag that is looking for power plays. Unbound won't really change much for me

I like how you imply that you are a fun player, but refer to people that approach the game in a different manner as "d-bags."

Classy.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Necron rely on their flyers or Wraiths to win games, core is just seen as a "flyer tax" aka min 5 Warriors.

And yes, unbound would mean absolutely, 100% throwing any balance out of the wind.

"Who is the better player?" becomes "Who got more Riptides?"

Basically, it will boil down to competitive 40k being ruled as to if unbound lists are allowed or not. Or they will say "battle forged" lists only