Will 'unforged' lists really be all that abusable?

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**Kain**

Litcheur wrote:
Perfect Organism wrote:
How many armies will actually be able to abuse the system?

If it's applied to allies too, I'd say : all of them.

If not applicable to allies, all of them, except Imperial Knights and maybe Sisters of Battle.

On the other hand, it would also allow you to field a grot army : grots, killa kanz, grots, moar grots, grots everywhere. Without being limited to 6 units of troops.

But I don't know one player that wouldn't already be willing to bend the FOC rules to play against a full-grot army.

If you have forgeworld, you can use Grot tanks for even more grots!

**MWHistorian**

I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

**Kain**

MWHistorian wrote:
I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

Weapon:

Force feed opponent your BRB.

S: Hospitalization.

AP: Ignores all saves.

Range: Arm's length.

Assault in the fifth degree.

**SlaveToDorkness**

throwoff wrote:
Nobody knows what the bound army bonuses will be yet, they could be huge if playing unbound.

Or they could be the usual GW "bonuses" that make competent players wonder WTH they are thinking.

RIP Pick-up game 1987-2014.

**Messy0**

Makumba wrote:
Tau and Eldar gain almost no benefit; they can already take enough skimmer tanks and jump monstrous creatures to fill a standard list with almost no padding and their troops and HQs are not a 'tax', but actually so good most players will take them even if they don't have to.

Multiple buffmanders . Not being forced to spend points on a ally troops to get the ++2 baron you need for your seer star. Playing with 2 tides and 2 hammerheads without being forced to take Farsight as ally. It saves a lot of points in general for combo armies .

I doubt unforged lists will be able to take more than 1 unique item anyway. So there will be no multiple buffmanders.

I agree chaos got the hugest boost. Alof of their best units are in Fast attack. Being able to take 3 Helldrakes and 3 full squads of Nurgle Spawn and 3 units of Nurgle bikes will be a huge benifit to them.

**sing your life**

Deadshot wrote:

An army of Boyz, with no FOC limit.

?

I would so love to see that!

**BoomWolf**

Over and over I am amazed how people come up with a list of "OP armies" that will happen because of unbound rules, not realizing half of them are already doable within the limits of the FOC as it stands now, half the remaining are instant-lose tickets, and the rest are usually not possible even unbound (someone threw 3 ascendant ctan in 1500 points-HOW? they cost minimum 645 with the WEAKEST setup)

**BrotherOfBone**

BoomWolf wrote:
Over and over I am amazed how people come up with a list of "OP armies" that will happen because of unbound rules, not realizing half of them are already doable within the limits of the FOC as it stands now, half the remaining are instant-lose tickets, and the rest are usually not possible even unbound (someone threw 3 ascendant ctan in 1500 points-HOW? they cost minimum 645 with the WEAKEST setup)

It was 2 Ascendant and 1 Shard c:

**SlaveToDorkness**

Over and over I am amazed how people come up with condescending posts talking down to other posters whilst being wrong.

**kingleir**

astro_nomicon wrote:
rabidguineapig wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
DarkWind wrote:
SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I don't think it's as much "you don't have to take Troops" as "you can take more than 3 of the Best Units in the Codex".

This, we still don't know if Troops will be the only scoring units or not.

And if that riptide lists tables you at the end of turn 3, you won't have anyone left to score, so it won't matter.

Let's see those riptides table my 125 squads of three henchmen!

This. I think the worst part of unbound is going to be MSU abuse. There's absolutely no reason to take large units with unboud as having more units gives the player more "tactical" shooting options (little to no overkill) and makes it hard for the other army to take it down in the 5+ turns we have in a game. How about an army of 37 single Attack Bikes 50/50 multi melta to heavy bolter ratio at 1850? or 26 War Walkers with pretty much any load out you like? Obviously these are worst case scenario type lists, but just for the possibility that these lists exist AS RULE SANCTIONED kinda gets my goat. I've been playing since 3rd and the FOC has always seemed somewhat sacred. Allies was cool, then they went kinda overboard with formations, inquisitors, and knights (IMHO), and now have thrown the whole damn thing out. Lame.

Abuse it until your opponent draws a card that says vp for every kp this turn and he drops 10 large blasts and comes out 30 vp's richer.

**rabidguineapig**

Haha yeah if you happened to run into a KP scenario while fielding 125 units of henchmen you'd probably be in some trouble, but luckily I don't own 375 guardsmen/acolytes and will never run into this problem. That look on your opponent's face during deployment would be priceless though.

I would be tempted to run about 12-15 tiny squads of henchmen with at least 1 melta or plasmagun in each and sprint them at my enemy. You'd have to think at least a few are going to get there, and if they don't your opponent just wasted a ton of his shooting on 22 point squads of scrubs.

**astro_nomicon**

kingleir wrote:
astro_nomicon wrote:
rabidguineapig wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
DarkWind wrote:
SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I don't think it's as much "you don't have to take Troops" as "you can take more than 3 of the Best Units in the Codex".

This, we still don't know if Troops will be the only scoring units or not.

And if that riptide lists tables you at the end of turn 3, you won't have anyone left to score, so it won't matter.

Let's see those riptides table my 125 squads of three henchmen!

This. I think the worst part of unbound is going to be MSU abuse. There's absolutely no reason to take large units with unboud as having more units gives the player more "tactical" shooting options (little to no overkill) and makes it hard for the other army to take it down in the 5+ turns we have in a game. How about an army of 37 single Attack Bikes 50/50 multi melta to heavy bolter ratio at 1850? or 26 War Walkers with pretty much any load out you like? Obviously these are worst case scenario type lists, but just for the possibility that these lists exist AS RULE SANCTIONED kinda gets my goat. I've been playing since 3rd and the FOC has always seemed somewhat sacred. Allies was cool, then they went kinda overboard with formations, inquisitors, and knights (IMHO), and now have thrown the whole damn thing out. Lame.

Abuse it until your opponent draws a card that says vp for every kp this turn and he drops 10 large blasts and comes out 30 vp's richer.

If he lasts on the table long enough to draw that card. I'd also like to see 10 large blasts kill 30 war walkers. . .

**ninjafiredragon**

4 (or 5, depending on which IA you use) lynxs should be...interesting

**easysauce**

MWHistorian wrote:
I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

you dont have to play against unbound,

ever,

any more then someone can force you to play against an APOC army right now, or force you to take 500pts to their 3000pts....

**CalgarsPimpHand**

easysauce wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

you dont have to play against unbound,

ever,

any more then someone can force you to play against an APOC army right now, or force you to take 500pts to their 3000pts....

Correction, you won't have to play against Unbound any more than anyone can force you to play against an army with allies or a fortification right now. It's pretty clear in that WD image that Unbound will be just another legal way to build an army.

**astro_nomicon**

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
easysauce wrote:
MWHistorian wrote:
I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

you dont have to play against unbound,

ever,

any more then someone can force you to play against an APOC army right now, or force you to take 500pts to their 3000pts....

Correction, you won't have to play against Unbound any more than anyone can force you to play against an army with allies or a fortification right now. It's pretty clear in that WD image that Unbound will be just another legal way to build an army.

QFT. Turning down games against unbound armies won't really be a big deal at first, just as turning down playing against fliers or allies was nothing out of the ordinary at the beginning of 6th. A year or two into it, however, will be a different story. New players will get into the game never even realizing that a FoC used to be mandatory. Even long time players will warm up to the ideas of absurd combos that can be pulled off with no FoC, just like more and more people are gaming the allies system to get ever more powerful builds onto the table. Not that all players will abuse this, but the possibility for abuse at least seems, at the moment, to be wide, wide open for some god awful army building to happen.

**Deadshot**

BrotherOfBone wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
Over and over I am amazed how people come up with a list of "OP armies" that will happen because of unbound rules, not realizing half of them are already doable within the limits of the FOC as it stands now, half the remaining are instant-lose tickets, and the rest are usually not possible even unbound (someone threw 3 ascendant ctan in 1500 points-HOW? they cost minimum 645 with the WEAKEST setup)

It was 2 Ascendant and 1 Shard c:

Actually, I did that. Don't know the points limits. But regardless, a game featuring 2 Transcendent C'tan and a Shard is just asking for trouble.

**CthuluIsSpy**

jasper76 wrote:
Perfect Organism wrote:
Necrons seem to rely on troops for most of their best builds, so they don't gain much.

Necrons would gain ability to take more than 6 units of Wraiths, Annihilation Barges, and Spyders and the poop they bring to the table. Also, depending on how "anythijng goes" it would be, the ability to field Crypteks without an Overlord. This might not seem like much, but it would remove a pretty frequent stumbling block list-building-wise.

If I recall correctly, the Royal Court rule explicitly states that you need an overlord. The new army composition rules does not change that.

**TheCustomLime**

I dont think that army lists will be terribly different in the new ruleset. Troops and HQ do provide benefits for most armies. I would imagine the largest beneficiaries of this new format will be Daemon and Nid players. You thought FMC spam was bad before? Well, prepare to have your mind blown!

**Formosa**

A whole army of black knights sounds pretty beast

**Torquar**

MWHistorian wrote:
I don't see what bonuses a 'bound' army could have that could possibly offset an all riptide list.

You can get nine dual-Pulse Laser + Holofield Hornets for 855 pts and three FA slots. 36 S8 AP2 shots at 48" would definitely give those Riptides a bloody nose. Hornets are fragile but it would be far from a walkover for the riptide list.

Spend the rest of your points on Serpents or wraiths or whatever...

**niv-mizzet**

This sounds like when one of my younger friends wanted to play Magic with no mana. Just...you had infinite mana every turn, and your 60 card deck was all useful stuff.

I asked him if he actually liked winning a coin flip to go first, and then just saying "I win."

**AllSeeingSkink**

rabidguineapig wrote:
Haha yeah if you happened to run into a KP scenario while fielding 125 units of henchmen you'd probably be in some trouble, but luckily I don't own 375 guardsmen/acolytes and will never run into this problem. That look on your opponent's face during deployment would be priceless though.

And you'll have a long time to enjoy it as it will take you forever to deploy

But yeah, some of the more extreme armies you wouldn't even have to play the game to know the result.

"game gets VP's only from objective? Ok, I win, see you next week"

"game gets VP's from kill points? Ok, you win, see you next week"

**KommissarKarl**

"Unforged" is just a new name for Apocolypse. I wasn't around when the first apocolypse was released but I'd bet the internet was full of "omg gw ruined 40k", "super-heavies will ruin all balance", etc etc.

Unbound won't even be a thing after 7th is released.

**TheKbob**

Death Star units with no Force Org restrictions will make the game disgusting. You no longer have to think if you want this guy or that guy. You can now take:

Iron Hands Chapter Master (Bike, Shield Eternal, Power Fist, AA)
Clan Rauukan Chapter Master (Bike, Gorgon's Chain, Power Fist, AA)
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, SS, TH, AA, WTT, WTN, SotB)
Rune Priest (Bike, Runic Armor)
Khan (Moondraken)
Command Squad (Grav Guns, SSs, Apoth)

I'm sure you could add more busted stuff into it, but it will be "Hey, find the best battle brothers and dump them into one squad that will never die!" type ordeal. And then take Coteaz and take 20x 3 man henchmen warbands of 3 acolytes each for a grand total of 340 points. So there goes the "you can't score" idea out the window to boot.

**astro_nomicon**

TheKbob wrote:
Death Star units with no Force Org restrictions will make the game disgusting. You no longer have to think if you want this guy or that guy. You can now take:

Iron Hands Chapter Master (Bike, Shield Eternal, Power Fist, AA)
Clan Rauukan Chapter Master (Bike, Gorgon's Chain, Power Fist, AA)
Wolf Lord (Thunderwolf, SS, TH, AA, WTT, WTN, SotB)
Rune Priest (Bike, Runic Armor)
Khan (Moondraken)
Command Squad (Grav Guns, SSs, Apoth)

I'm sure you could add more busted stuff into it, but it will be "Hey, find the best battle brothers and dump them into one squad that will never die!" type ordeal. And then take Coteaz and take 20x 3 man henchmen warbands of 3 acolytes each for a grand total of 340 points. So there goes the "you can't score" idea out the window to boot.

Well as far as we know you still have to follow the allies matrix which would limit you to either iron hands + space wolves + inquisition or white scars + iron hands + inquisition or white scars + space + inquisition (any of the three are still a little bit ridiculous to me). But yeah I don't like the sound of it so far. That being said, I still think the whole MSU2DAMAX thing will be the undoing of unbound. Also, I'm lucky in the sense that my local group is small and fairly likeminded so I don't think unbound will be making much of a debut.

**Freman Bloodglaive**

goblinking201 wrote:
Sorry, I might be behind but, what are these "Unforged" lists that you are talking about?

Think Apocalypse rules. Bring whatever you want to in any points level.

**Tigramans**

Deadshot wrote:
An army of all Wave Serpents and Wraithknights.
An army of Heldrakes.
An army of Riptides, led by the SC Riptide.
An army of Screamerstars.
An army of Necron Wraiths.
An army of Flyrants, Tervigons, whatever else.
An army of Nob Bikers.
An army of Grav-Centurions.
An army of Henchman, with no 6 squad limit.
An army of Purifiers, no Crowe tax.
An army of Dreadknights.
An army of Special Characters (awesome though).
An army of Leman Russ Squadrons, Vendettas, and Platoons.
An army of Boyz, with no FOC limit.
Crisis Suits. Crisis Suits everywhere.
Cron Croissant Spam just got bigger. How many Doom Scythes for 1500pts?

The only Codex not effected is Imperial Knights.

Multiple Lords of war? Spamming Superheavies in a regular game? How about 3+ Transcendent C'tan at 1500?

Land Raiders. Land Raiders everywhere. When so large methul bawkses are so numerous, they block movement from most of the ground units, and saturate 'em with heavy weapons fire. Crusaders/Redeemers will eventually hit fliers with TL assault cannons too. So yeah, come at me, Riptides.

Even though it would screw up, I'd still want to try it again

**Freman Bloodglaive**

Sure, people could (and probably will) abuse the Unforged option, but also think of the flexibility it allows in building your army.

You want to reenact the Battle for Macragge? Play your mix of terminators and Sternguard led by a terminator Captain.

You want a Monster Mash Tyranid list? Just pile up those Carnifex.

An army of Blood Angel scouts? Sure, no problem.

Grots grots everywhere.

Abusers abuse the lists anyway, there's nothing you can do about it except just refuse to play like them. That doesn't mean refusing to play them, just place your miniatures, watch them be swept off the table, shrug and say something like, "well that was boring, wasn't it?" Maybe they'll figure out that they're not contributing to a close exciting game.

**sLeEpYrOcK**

Deadshot wrote:
An army of all Wave Serpents and Wraithknights.
An army of Heldrakes.
An army of Riptides, led by the SC Riptide.
An army of Screamerstars.
An army of Necron Wraiths.
An army of Flyrants, Tervigons, whatever else.
An army of Nob Bikers.
An army of Grav-Centurions.
An army of Henchman, with no 6 squad limit.
An army of Purifiers, no Crowe tax.
An army of Dreadknights.
An army of Special Characters (awesome though).
An army of Leman Russ Squadrons, Vendettas, and Platoons.
An army of Boyz, with no FOC limit.
Crisis Suits. Crisis Suits everywhere.
Cron Croissant Spam just got bigger. How many Doom Scythes for 1500pts?

The only Codex not effected is Imperial Knights.

Multiple Lords of war? Spamming Superheavies in a regular game? How about 3+ Transcendent C'tan at 1500?

If I am reading correctly, you also missed Deldar

Automatically Appended Next Post:

sing your life wrote:
Deadshot wrote:

An army of Boyz, with no FOC limit.

?

I would so love to see that!

but you can take a warboss with power klaw and ;eavy armour and 100 boys for 750 points (moving is a hassle though, a huge hassle)