Just played in a local tourney recently with 16 players and the eldar came in the top 3. My Tau army got absolutely butchered. The three main problems were:

1. Wave Serpant spam

AV12, puts out more shots than a MBT with excellant range and strength and ignore cover/shred armor and has 4+ cover itself. Somebody rolls out 6 of these then they'll take apart whole squads easily. More importantly, the high armour value makes them totally immune to the weapons of tau troops. Having played Dark Eldar and considering the huge limitations to their vehicles its just an OP unit TBH; massively under-costed. Seriously I was getting sarcastic towards the end of the last battle and asking the guy if his wave serpant ignored invulnerable saves as well. Which he actually checked as well.

2. Seer council on jetbikes

2+ re-rollable armour saves. 2+ re-rollable cover saves. Can cross the entire board in one turn. Str7 re roll wounds. 4+ inv saves. Their own psychic shooting and bike weaponry.

3. Wraithknight

50/50 on this. In one battle I killed it in a single turn of shooting from a crisis team. But in another, it used its wraithcannon to instantly kill both my Riptides before going on to single handedly butcher the rest of my army.


A big problem I had with my army was that once you have used up your heavy support and elites slots the only thing you can buy is blobs of troops. This isn't a problem if the enemy also has infantry. But against an all mech army with transports immune to everything its impossible to beat. Again, IMO eldar are supposed to be an expensive fragile glasshammer and they just aren't...

My personal advice would be to not do anything for the next 2 weeks, wait for the new edition to drop, and then re-evaluate.

 slowthar wrote:
My personal advice would be to not do anything for the next 2 weeks, wait for the new edition to drop, and then re-evaluate.

Yeah, are they changing how cover saves work for skimmers and how many weapons they can fire in a single turn without snapshots?

You're Tau. The King of Screw Your Cover. I can see your other complaints, but cover saves?

Depends on the army. Some people play without pathfinders. I always find them to not be worth their cost, or slot when I can get XV9s.

I'm not gonna lie. I chuckled a bit to see a Tau player complaining about any other codex.

Seriously though. A couple of skyrays can help you with #1 and #3. I still dont know why people under utilize these.

As for the seer council, pucker that butt and hope for the bets....UNLESS they don't have the baron with them and then just tie em up with a riptide for a few turns and kill everything else or just hit em with AP and take cover away. And make sure to spread out, don't give them any multi-charges.

*Edit: oh and if you aren't bringing a lot of marker lights, then you are hamstringing yourself.

Indeed, I'd wait for the new rules and then think about it again.

As said elsewhere, there will be a rule change for skimmers. This could affect the damage output of the Serpents.

I had three squads of pathfinders but theres little to no sense marking them if the eldar shooting kills almost everything that can pierce their front armor in the first turn which is precisely what happened. Fire Warriors and kroot are next to useless as they can't get heavy weapons in their squads against AV12 vehicles. (That an eldar skimmer gets that armor is obscene BTW)

There were about 12 of them and they had those wound on 2+ weapons. Very much doubt a riptide could survive a turn of CC with them. Also, when your unit covers a third of the board its impossible to avoid a multi charge. Plus having cover means you are less likely to be able to boost your BS as well.

I don't own any skyrays. Monies. Same reason I don't have a third hammerhead.

I only have three elites choices so the amount of AP2 fire I can put out is very limited and the eldar player just pastes them in turn 1.



I fail to see what you're inferring. A riptide cannot demolish an entire army single handedly the way a Wraithknight can and is unable to instant kill monstrous creatures. In fact I have never seen a riptide do anything that wasn't a result of luck and it certainly isn't a game changer. I can't put my squads in devilfish that are immune to enemy fire and can fire a dozen ignore cover rending shots a turn. N I certainly can't give my battlesuits 2+ re-rollable armor saves, 2+ re rollable cover saves and give them that kind of mobility. Also, I need to actually use synergy to confer bonuses like improved BS and ignore cover with very fragile pathfinder units; I don't get such buffs automatically included in weapon stats or instantly passable psychic powers held by the toughest units in the codex. Eldar are a much more powerful codex than Tau.

Coming from someone who plays in more tournament games than pickup games I can assure you that the Riptide is in a league of its own, while the Wraithknight is a nifty MC that can is extremely vunerable to numerous lists out there. Craftworld eldar vehicles have ALWAYS been armor 12 save for the lighter Vypers and War walkers. DE came much later and they own the glass cannon trophy.

Is it wrong that I'm laughing at a Tau player having trouble?

 MWHistorian wrote:
Is it wrong that I'm laughing at a Tau player having trouble?

Only if you play Eldar. Otherwise, yuck it up, fuzzball.

 slowthar wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Is it wrong that I'm laughing at a Tau player having trouble?

Only if you play Eldar. Otherwise, yuck it up, fuzzball.

Exalted for Chewbacca reference on said actor's birthday.

 gardeth wrote:
Coming from someone who plays in more tournament games than pickup games I can assure you that the Riptide is in a league of its own, while the Wraithknight is a nifty MC that can is extremely vunerable to numerous lists out there. Craftworld eldar vehicles have ALWAYS been armor 12 save for the lighter Vypers and War walkers. DE came much later and they own the glass cannon trophy.

How? It lacks the ranged damage output of the wraithknight. Is mediocre in close combat. Its only saving grace is that its a bit difficult to kill if you don't have an instant death weapon. A squad of crisis suits puts out much more damage than a riptide and you can only take 3 riptides in an army. A single wave serpant puts out more fire power than a riptide and its a lot cheaper.



@ other guy

See the above list. If you think that its fair for Craftworld eldar to have instant death weapons, cheap transports that are impossible to kill and put out more shots than a main battle tank and 2+ re rollable armor, cover and super mobility; a cheap titan. Eldar are broken and OP. Tau are not.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 gardeth wrote:
Coming from someone who plays in more tournament games than pickup games I can assure you that the Riptide is in a league of its own, while the Wraithknight is a nifty MC that can is extremely vunerable to numerous lists out there. Craftworld eldar vehicles have ALWAYS been armor 12 save for the lighter Vypers and War walkers. DE came much later and they own the glass cannon trophy.

How? It lacks the ranged damage output of the wraithknight. Is mediocre in close combat. Its only saving grace is that its a bit difficult to kill if you don't have an instant death weapon. A squad of crisis suits puts out much more damage than a riptide and you can only take 3 riptides in an army. A single wave serpant puts out more fire power than a riptide and its a lot cheaper.



@ other guy

See the above list. If you think that its fair for Craftworld eldar to have instant death weapons, cheap transports that are impossible to kill and put out more shots than a main battle tank and 2+ re rollable armor, cover and super mobility; a cheap titan. Eldar are broken and OP. Tau are not.

No...just...no...

You are looking at this from the perspective of Tau and finding it amazing that your list can't roll Eldar as well. If you looked at this from any other armies perspective you would see why people are having a bit of fun at your expense. Yeah Eldar can be OP as hell, but so are Tau. You have ignores cover in spades, ridiculous amounts of high strength shooting, move-shoot-move shenanigans, and effective blob squads with some of the best synergy of any army. Not to mention the Riptide IS a game changer because I can tell you, nothing my Tyranids can do can get close to what a Riptide can do unless I want to blow $400+ to run the stupid Skyblight swarm to its full cheese.

TL;DR Eldar can be OP, so can Tau. You've never had to experience what it is like to be on the other side of a cheese Tau list so your perspective is a little out of whack.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 gardeth wrote:
Coming from someone who plays in more tournament games than pickup games I can assure you that the Riptide is in a league of its own, while the Wraithknight is a nifty MC that can is extremely vunerable to numerous lists out there. Craftworld eldar vehicles have ALWAYS been armor 12 save for the lighter Vypers and War walkers. DE came much later and they own the glass cannon trophy.

How? It lacks the ranged damage output of the wraithknight. Is mediocre in close combat. Its only saving grace is that its a bit difficult to kill if you don't have an instant death weapon. A squad of crisis suits puts out much more damage than a riptide and you can only take 3 riptides in an army.


@ other guy

See the above list. If you think that its fair for Craftworld eldar to have instant death weapons, cheap transports that are impossible to kill and put out more shots than a main battle tank and 2+ re rollable armor, cover and super mobility; a cheap titan. Eldar are broken and OP. Tau are not.

How about "Overcharge", need to stay alive? 3++ Need to murder something? OP weapon mode engaged. Need to contest an objective or just get way over there? Trololol 3d6" movement in the assault phase.

The two don't even compare. Between the two, the Wraithknight breaks like fine china against any number of match ups, whereas the Riptide hides behind his shield. And lets not forget the options for sky fire, intercept, and the ability to overwatch with the rest of the damned army if its within 6".

And there are plenty of things that will murder a Wraithknight in CC that dont would get stuck chewing on a Riptide for a long time. Anything with poison attacks for instance.

A wraithknight does a few things better (like being immune to small arms fire (except for taus!), avoiding JWW, CC, and popping AV 13/14. But there are some many things that the Riptide does that the WraithKnight CAN'T EVEN DO, nevermind how OP it is when combined with marker lights.

 gardeth wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 gardeth wrote:
Coming from someone who plays in more tournament games than pickup games I can assure you that the Riptide is in a league of its own, while the Wraithknight is a nifty MC that can is extremely vunerable to numerous lists out there. Craftworld eldar vehicles have ALWAYS been armor 12 save for the lighter Vypers and War walkers. DE came much later and they own the glass cannon trophy.

How? It lacks the ranged damage output of the wraithknight. Is mediocre in close combat. Its only saving grace is that its a bit difficult to kill if you don't have an instant death weapon. A squad of crisis suits puts out much more damage than a riptide and you can only take 3 riptides in an army.


@ other guy

See the above list. If you think that its fair for Craftworld eldar to have instant death weapons, cheap transports that are impossible to kill and put out more shots than a main battle tank and 2+ re rollable armor, cover and super mobility; a cheap titan. Eldar are broken and OP. Tau are not.

How about "Overcharge", need to stay alive? 3++ Need to murder something? OP weapon mode engaged. Need to contest an objective or just get way over there? Trololol 3d6" movement in the assault phase.

The two don't even compare. Between the two, the Wraithknight breaks like fine china against any number of match ups, whereas the Riptide hides behind his shield. And lets not forget the options for sky fire, intercept, and the ability to overwatch with the rest of the damned army if its within 6".

And there are plenty of things that will murder a Wraithknight in CC that dont would get stuck chewing on a Riptide for a long time. Anything with poison attacks for instance.

A wraithknight does a few things better (like being immune to small arms fire (except for taus!), avoiding JWW, CC, and popping AV 13/14. But there are some many things that the Riptide does that the WraithKnight CAN'T EVEN DO, nevermind how OP it is when combined with marker lights.

Over charge kills your riptide and always fails. Why would I use an ability that always back fires?

You have to get the first turn to activate it. If the enemy snipes you with an instant death weapon you can hardly have your 3+ shield on.

OP weapon mode. OMG 12 shots on a BS3 model. A wave serpant gets that many shots and all the other shinagins.

A riptide cannot instant kill 2 monstrous creatures, blow up two tanks and destroy entire squads.

I had three squads of fire warriors with full markerlights and a hammer head with ion cannon shooting at that wraithknight. It did nothing. Not one wound lost to a pulse rifle.


The only thing I have seen kill a Wraithknight is another game where I put 12 plasma and five fusion blaster rounds into it at BS5 with monster hunters. Even then, only just and he had a seer council anyway and the wave serpants took that squad apart in the next turn anyway.




Tau have ALWAYS had markerlights that ignored cover and boosted BS

Tau have ALWAYS had the jump pack rule

Tau have ALWAYS had str5 guns. Woopdie woo.

Tau were considered an obsolete army before 6th edition codex and its stupid to criticise elements that were always in the older codexes.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 gardeth wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 gardeth wrote:
Coming from someone who plays in more tournament games than pickup games I can assure you that the Riptide is in a league of its own, while the Wraithknight is a nifty MC that can is extremely vunerable to numerous lists out there. Craftworld eldar vehicles have ALWAYS been armor 12 save for the lighter Vypers and War walkers. DE came much later and they own the glass cannon trophy.

How? It lacks the ranged damage output of the wraithknight. Is mediocre in close combat. Its only saving grace is that its a bit difficult to kill if you don't have an instant death weapon. A squad of crisis suits puts out much more damage than a riptide and you can only take 3 riptides in an army.


@ other guy

See the above list. If you think that its fair for Craftworld eldar to have instant death weapons, cheap transports that are impossible to kill and put out more shots than a main battle tank and 2+ re rollable armor, cover and super mobility; a cheap titan. Eldar are broken and OP. Tau are not.

How about "Overcharge", need to stay alive? 3++ Need to murder something? OP weapon mode engaged. Need to contest an objective or just get way over there? Trololol 3d6" movement in the assault phase.

The two don't even compare. Between the two, the Wraithknight breaks like fine china against any number of match ups, whereas the Riptide hides behind his shield. And lets not forget the options for sky fire, intercept, and the ability to overwatch with the rest of the damned army if its within 6".

And there are plenty of things that will murder a Wraithknight in CC that dont would get stuck chewing on a Riptide for a long time. Anything with poison attacks for instance.

A wraithknight does a few things better (like being immune to small arms fire (except for taus!), avoiding JWW, CC, and popping AV 13/14. But there are some many things that the Riptide does that the WraithKnight CAN'T EVEN DO, nevermind how OP it is when combined with marker lights.

Over charge kills your riptide and always fails. Why would I use an ability that always back fires?

You have to get the first turn to activate it. If the enemy snipes you with an instant death weapon you can hardly have your 3+ shield on.

OP weapon mode. OMG 12 shots on a BS3 model. A wave serpant gets that many shots and all the other shinagins.

A riptide cannot instant kill 2 monstrous creatures, blow up two tanks and destroy entire squads.

I had three squads of fire warriors with full markerlights and a hammer head with ion cannon shooting at that wraithknight. It did nothing. Not one wound lost to a pulse rifle.

Well heres your problem. Your taking an extreme limited sample and applying it universally. First off, hammerheads are meh. And which, praytell, Instant Death weapons are you getting sniped with fist turn? The wraithcannon that does it 1 out of 6 times? Also, saying that your overcharge ALWAYS fails is rather childish. If you roll a lot of 1s that means....you roll a lot of 1s, it doesnt mean that the ability isnt OP. Also, if your riptide is firing at BS 3 and not 5, thats your choice as marker lights fix that. And yes a riptide can kill (not insta perhaps) multiple monstrous creatures, multiple tanks, and various squads.

You've had some bad luck and are wanting to vent on the interwebs. Your limited experiences don't change the reality though.

The wraithknights wraithcannon killed two riptides by rolling 6s and I failed my invulnerable saves. One of these was first blood in the first turn.


The nova generator fails on a 2 and a 1. Thats a 1 in 3 chance, not a 1 in 6 chance. Thats a high chance of failure.

Markerlights require synergy. Unlike eldar I don't have the ability to self boost using instant pass psychic powers or have it in built into the unit. Also, a markerlight only has a range of 36 and a limited field of fire. It is hard to get markerlights on every unit of the board. So a riptide only has a BS of 3. You should never assume that they have BS5 because you COULD have markerlights on the unit.

Riptides are OP. If you don't see that, then I can't help you.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Riptides are OP. If you don't see that, then I can't help you.

They aren't. They do jack in every battle I fight. I ve seen trygons and carnifexs take apart armies, crisis suits blast apart enemy tanks and fire warriors wipe out whole squads of terminators with markerlights. The riptide is meh.

Ok, you just put Trygons and Carnifexes over Riptides, you are either a Troll or, well, best not to say.

Either way I'm done trying to convince you to stop making a fool of yourself.

 gardeth wrote:
Ok, you just put Trygons and Carnifexes over Riptides, you are either a Troll or, well, best not to say.

Either way I'm done trying to convince you to stop making a fool of yourself.

Those tyranid examples are from previous editions as a standard I set for a killie unit; which is the ability to wipe out whole units in a single turn of shooting or CC.

What you are saying makes no sense.

8 str6 ap4 shots at bs3 or 3 str7 ap2 shots at bs3

4 str5 ap5 shots at bs3

Or I roll a dice and lose a wound.

If I do pass

Wow I get an ordinance version...

Wow I get four extra shots and gets hot to lose even more wounds.


For the same price I can get a squad of crisis suits with plasma and fusion weapons with signiature systems to boost it. THAT can kill entire squads and tanks in a single turn.

Riptides cannot wipe out entire squads a turn, they at best cause a few negligible losses (this is with BS buffs) and just stand there trying to contest objectives. Woopie. So broken and over powered...

So to bring this back to your original post, you will never beat Eldar until you recognize the amazing units you have at your disposal and figure out how to use them properly.

Honestly, it sounds like you took a less-than-optimized list to a tournament & are complaining that your army (who, as a Tau player w/ all three of their codeci can tell you that this one is ridiculously OP) that has probably held up very well in the general meta got its poop pushed in by armies that were built specifically for that tourney. Deal.

People don't go to tourney's to 'have fun'. They go there to beat face & see who has the biggest wang. They don't care about fluff, your feelings or friendly gaming. They came there to stomp a mudhole in your arse & are going to bring the nastiest, meanest, most ridiculously OP units they have available to them to do it.

You have no right to complain - you didn't bring a tourney list to a tourney - your fault, not theirs. No army should EVER be recieving a cover save of any kind vs. Tau. Missilesides make serpents their playthings all day long w/o even breaking a sweat. Riptides eat low T/med/low armor save troops like candy. You brought a bad list, didn't use a key component of the Riptide because 'it never works' & then whine cuz no one here see's your side.

You got beat by a better playerusing a tourney list. Learn, adapt & move on.

~Vryce

 gardeth wrote:
So to bring this back to your original post, you will never beat Eldar until you recognize the amazing units you have at your disposal and figure out how to use them properly.

What amazing units?

I markerlight a wave serpant. Shoot it with riptide. It bounces off.

Do it again. Oh it blows up.

Oh wait. That wraithknight killed all of my riptides like it was piss in two shots and the crisis team is shredded by serpant spam.

Watches as rest of army splattered as guns cannot hurt anything in eldar army.

That game was over in two turns.



Okay. Cite me one example of a riptide doing something game changing and wiping out multiple units. What is the highest kill count you have ever had with a single riptide?


Nonesense. I came second in the last tournament and that had piss all to do with the riptide I took. That was railguns and crisis teams with markerlights all the way. The standard of players and tournie lists was no better or worse this year than last. All the riptide did was waddle around whilst idiot enemy players wasted their fire on killing "the big thing". The riptide is a waste of points.


Oh I use the stupid ability and it results in me losing 3 wounds every game to the reactor malfunction for next to no boost in damage output.

I have watched my ATC team mate take out an entire Space Marine bike list that stole the initiative from him with his Tau. His Riptides (2) where dropping entire units of bikes on their own.

My flying MC daemon army friggin hates Riptides as they can shoot me out of the frikking sky without even grounding me (happened a number of times).

Are Riptides great against wave serpent spam? YES, hit em with marker lights and then tear off their hullpoints with a overcharged burst cannon. If your roll that badly with overcharge get a friggin earth caste pilot upgrade to reroll that business. Dying to wraithknights constantly? Buy some damn shield drones.

Even with that serpent spam is a tough list for a lot of Tau armies, but thats ok. You know what a tough matchup is for a lot of armies??? Multiple Riptide tau!

Why not I'll write down what I took

1850pts army


HQ

Shadowsun with 2 drones (she joins the crisis team to give them 2+ cover save)


Elites

3xCrisis
1xshasvre
Puretide engram
3x tl plasma
3x fusion

Riptitde with gatling n sms n AA upgrades

Riptide with ion accelerator, fusion blaster n AA upgrades

Troops

3x squads of 10 fire warriors

2x squads of kroot with sniper rounds

Fast Attack

3x squads of 8 pathfinders

Heavy Support

Hammerhead with longstrike

Hammerhead with ion cannon

Sounds like you just have bad luck to me. Either that or you're exaggerating just to complain.

Riptides are nothing compared to the power that the Eldar Rangers bring to the table.

...what? I thought this was a gag post.

In all seriousness, it seems like you are hindering yourself heavily and going against tournament lists. Nobody will be happy in this situation if they don't realize that it is a crazy uphill battle if you think a couple experiences outweight the ACTUAL ability of the Riptide.

BS5 12 shots gatling

10 hits

5 wounds (1 rending)

2 wounds failed armour saves. (total 3)

That won't kill a bloodthirster in one turn. If you lost one it was his luck and your bad. Or he had a second tide.

BS5 3 shots str 7 ap2 ion

3 hits

2 wounds

1/2 wounds from inv save

Won't kill a thirster.


On a squad of marines

10 hits

8 wounds (lets be generous and say 2 rending)

4 failed armour saves

That 6 dead marines. Those are some really small squads you're fighting.

The blast could kill a squad of marines...but so could the Guards master of ordinance or any other ap3 ordinance weapon in the game. Its nothing special.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Okay. Cite me one example of a riptide doing something game changing and wiping out multiple units. What is the highest kill count you have ever had with a single riptide?

Serously?

Single best shot. Overcharged Ion hits a necron Ghost ark, Ann barge and a tri stalker. Blows up both ghost ark and the stalker. and weapon destroys the barge.

Ether way if kill count is whats important to you i think you should stay out of tournys.

From a str4 explosion of a vehicle?

Unless they all had AV10 and one hull point that could never happen.

It's because Eldar are OP, please GW, buff Tau in 7th, thank you! Even Banshees can murder a Riptide, so bad is it (-1 armor for Riptide, always on for sure, then 4++ on Banshees because why not, led by Karandras because he is an auto-include and way too cheap ).

I think you should keep complaining how an obviously OP unit isn't strong enough for you and expect people to suddenly see your side of it despite countless gaming experiences, math and basic reasoning.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
From a str4 explosion of a vehicle?

Unless they all had AV10 and one hull point that could never happen.

"ION"

the Str 9 one......

Suite wrote:
It's because Eldar are OP, please GW, buff Tau in 7th, thank you! Even Banshees can murder a Riptide, so bad is it!

No...neither eldar army I fought had a single aspect warrior and I almost never saw a foot soldier.

I don't see what I am supposed to do against insta kill wraithcannons...

I just said it's no wonder Eldar stomp you because even the ugliest and weakest unit choice crashes your supposed best without doubt!! ANd the Wraithcannons are very strong and have a very large range!

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Suite wrote:
It's because Eldar are OP, please GW, buff Tau in 7th, thank you! Even Banshees can murder a Riptide, so bad is it!

No...neither eldar army I fought had a single aspect warrior and I almost never saw a foot soldier.

I don't see what I am supposed to do against insta kill wraithcannons...

Play by the rules where Wraithcannons arent instant death....you know the official rules.

 Desubot wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
From a str4 explosion of a vehicle?

Unless they all had AV10 and one hull point that could never happen.

"ION"

the Str 9 one......

Luck- you managed to not lose a wound to the nova reactor

Luck - He clumped three vehicles under a 3'' radius template.

Luck- You rolled high on both the ordinance dice. You only have a 1 in 3 chance of scoring a penetrating hit on a av 13 arc with a str9 weapon and you then have to roll on vehicle damage table. Doing that three times is extra lucky.

Also, you can potentially do that with a 35pts Master of Ordinance....


Compare that to a 4th edition carnifex where you could splat entire sqauds of space marines a turn with unerring consistency...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Suite wrote:
It's because Eldar are OP, please GW, buff Tau in 7th, thank you! Even Banshees can murder a Riptide, so bad is it!

No...neither eldar army I fought had a single aspect warrior and I almost never saw a foot soldier.

I don't see what I am supposed to do against insta kill wraithcannons...

Play by the rules where Wraithcannons arent instant death....you know the official rules.

Heavy wraithcannons str10 ap2 assault 2 Distort

Distort- rolls of a six to wound cause instant death.

And of course, your opponent always rolls a six. Lol, not only using OP gak but also cheating with his dices!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Suite wrote:
It's because Eldar are OP, please GW, buff Tau in 7th, thank you! Even Banshees can murder a Riptide, so bad is it!

No...neither eldar army I fought had a single aspect warrior and I almost never saw a foot soldier.

I don't see what I am supposed to do against insta kill wraithcannons...

Play by the rules where Wraithcannons arent instant death....you know the official rules.

Heavy wraithcannons str10 ap2 assault 2 Distort

Distort- rolls of a six to wound cause instant death.

How come its 'luck' when everyone else beats the odds & gets a few good rolls, but when you loose to the dice gods & get a few bad rolls, you treat it as a statistical certainty that the riptide sucks?

~Vryce

The inv save of a riptide is 5+. A 1 in 3 chance that you invariably fail when you roll it. WHy I stopped paying money on flickerfields for my Dark Eldar. I have never once saved a dark elder vehicle because of a flickerfield.

You can't claim cover on a riptide because its huge...

The elder player did this trick twice with the wraithcannons.

Against another elder player when I slagged his wraithknight before it could he didn't manage to kill either of my riptides.

You put it in ANY area terrain and its harder to kill than a wraithknight.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
From a str4 explosion of a vehicle?

Unless they all had AV10 and one hull point that could never happen.

"ION"

the Str 9 one......

Luck- you managed to not lose a wound to the nova reactor

Luck - He clumped three vehicles under a 3'' radius template.

Luck- You rolled high on both the ordinance dice. You only have a 1 in 3 chance of scoring a penetrating hit on a av 13 arc with a str9 weapon and you then have to roll on vehicle damage table. Doing that three times is extra lucky.

Also, you can potentially do that with a 35pts Master of Ordinance....


Compare that to a 4th edition carnifex where you could splat entire sqauds of space marines a turn with unerring consistency...

Its the exact same thing for eldar and there D weapon.
They have to be within 12" for a wraithcannon, roll a 6, and you have to fail your cover or a 5++ or 3++ (which btw is only failed 1/3rd of the time on a 5 wound model)
every other D wepaon is sub 36". a riptide with ion is 72".

I think we have found the nega Jancoran.

Well, now we know you're just using hyperbole to try to prove a point (badly I might add). If you are to be believed, your dice -never- roll anything but ones & two's. You apparently can't roll a 3+ to nova-charge the Riptide reactor. You cant roll 6 4+'s to hit w/ the Riptides base BS of 3 (& needing a 4+ to hit statistically says you hit 50% of the time). You've also apparently never rolled a 5+ to save a DE vehicle using either FF's or jink.

So, either you need new dice worse than any one I've ever met in my 15 yrs in the hobby, or you're purposefully making everything into the worst possible scenario to try & force your original point. My vote's on the latter.

~Vryce

In a battle against Orks two months ago, my two Serpents failed EVERY DAMN cover save, no kidding! Man, those Serpents and Holofields suck, thanks for an overcosted and nerfed-to-ground vehicle, GW!

Btw Vryce your cat seems behaving like a crocodile, do you mistreat it??

Lol, I snapped that pic of him mid-yawn several years ago. He & my other cats are treated better than most people, so I think he's ok.

~Vryce

You can't claim area terrain if you cannot physically place the model on the terrain without it tipping over.

The boards are only 6 by 4 and had length-ways deployment. This meant I start off deployed in range of the heavy wraithcannons. During none of the battles did the range of the Tau weaponry become a factor.


I don't fail the over charge all the time. But usually 50% of the time it ends up biting you.

Flickerfields. I maybe get the odd pass here and there. Mostly fails however. A 5+ and 6+ save of any kind is a joke. Its a lucky chance to keep your model alive and not reliable protection.


Riptides are meh. Beyond everybody freaking out over the big model it achieves nothing. It doesn't have the damage output and it has mediocre CC ability (as it should do). Again I don't get where people get these nightmare stories about riptides and fixate on them. I ve seen another tau player who rolls with a support commander with marker drone and missile suits. THAT is an effective unit and a major threat. A riptide is a novelty but whenever people talk about his list they go on and on about the riptides.

My DE beg to differ, flicker fields have saved my ass sooo many times.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
You can't claim area terrain if you cannot physically place the model on the terrain without it tipping over.

The boards are only 6 by 4 and had lengthways deployment. This meant I start off deployed in range of the heavy wraithcannons. During none of the battles did the range of the Tau weaponry become a factor.


I don't fail the over charge all the time. But usually 50% of the time it ends up biting you.

Flickerfields. I maybe get the odd pass here and there. Mostly fails however. A 5+ and 6+ save of any kind is a joke.

1) Please cite the rules where it states that
2) proper deployment can deal with 36" range. Otherwise you can also always deny flank if they split up there Dweapons if they go first.
3) at 50% your just unlucky as the stats should be 1/3 fails
4) Its obviously not something you are supposed to rely on. and unless you play on a flat dessert you should have ruins and the occasion buildings that CAN cover riptide size models.

Etherway you seem set in your ways of Tau sucking so i think you should sell EVERYTHING and just get an eldar army already.

No I've won every battle I've fought with the new Tau. Not always by a huge margin and I've came a hairs breath from losing occasionally.

But both eldar games I got ku splatted.

Let me know if you do sell them, OP. I could use two more Riptides...

~Vryce

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
No I've won every battle I've fought with the new Tau. Not always by a huge margin and I've came a hairs breath from losing occasionally.

But both eldar games I got ku splatted.

ಠ_ಠ

The more you talk the deeper hole you dig for yourself. I've won numerous tournaments of various sizes. Won 3-4 free armies (I miss 'Ard Boyz) and have had to a chance to play a few of the big names in 40k and win. However I still acknowledge that there ARE bad matchups for my lists and when I do hit them I don't jump on Dakka and make crazy assertions that powerful models in my list suck whilst the enemies are god tier OP.

Bad luck happens, deal with it, learn from it, and move on.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
You can't claim area terrain if you cannot physically place the model on the terrain without it tipping over.

The boards are only 6 by 4 and had length-ways deployment. This meant I start off deployed in range of the heavy wraithcannons. During none of the battles did the range of the Tau weaponry become a factor.


I don't fail the over charge all the time. But usually 50% of the time it ends up biting you.

Flickerfields. I maybe get the odd pass here and there. Mostly fails however. A 5+ and 6+ save of any kind is a joke. Its a lucky chance to keep your model alive and not reliable protection.


Riptides are meh. Beyond everybody freaking out over the big model it achieves nothing. It doesn't have the damage output and it has mediocre CC ability (as it should do). Again I don't get where people get these nightmare stories about riptides and fixate on them. I ve seen another tau player who rolls with a support commander with marker drone and missile suits. THAT is an effective unit and a major threat. A riptide is a novelty but whenever people talk about his list they go on and on about the riptides.

You just havent read the rules then.
44% of the time and dice dont follow your magic prediction.
A 5+ is the same chance of success as the riptide generator failing.
They probably get them from better players.
Thats all I have to say apart from sorry if its hard to read.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
No I've won every battle I've fought with the new Tau. Not always by a huge margin and I've came a hairs breath from losing occasionally.

But both eldar games I got ku splatted.

Ahhh, that's what I was waiting for. So you've been crushing your local group. You think you've got it down and got hammered in the pro league. Now you wanna bitch. You sounded more than just a wee bit spoiled. Become a better player and stay out of the tournies until you have your ass handed to you a few more times.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 slowthar wrote:
My personal advice would be to not do anything for the next 2 weeks, wait for the new edition to drop, and then re-evaluate.

Yeah, are they changing how cover saves work for skimmers and how many weapons they can fire in a single turn without snapshots?

Yeah, they are making all jink saves the same as flyer jink saves, so you have to snap fire.

Step one, get markerlights

Step two, misslesides

Step three, riptides

Step four, ignore cover for the riptides and broadsides

Step five, dead serpents


Step one, ECPA burst tide

Step two, skyray

Step three, dead WKs

That is all well and good , but to be honest eldar do win more then tau . Can't remember the last time a tau list won a large tournament , while eldar are both placing high or wining all the time.

I have not had the pleasure of fighting Tau in my meta (most are space marines or guard for some reason) I hear lots about Riptides from Dakka. I feel like the way forward with them is AP2 weaponry (Starcannons, Heavy Wraithcannons, Pulse Laser, Bright Lance) and focusing on them while shooting at the drones with volumes to knock them off before shooting with the big guns. I have a few lists with no Wave serpents but thats because my local meta Hates vehicles in general and facing off against marines has me fighting turn 1 drop pod meltas every game. As for the farseer council the closest I have come to losing with it is against space wolves with a 4+ DtW on everything (blessing or curse). That was annoying as all get out. There was one turn he denied everything. Thats also the turn I killed that stupid rune priest.

this is a pretty funny thread. My riptides died because my opponent rolled to hit with his wraithknights and rolled a six both times causing instant death! OK, so once every 36 games you might see that happen, they are sooo broken! lol

Its always the same...

I hear Tau Players complaining about the OP Eldar
I hear Eldar Players complaining about the OP Tau

Most of them never had to fight for a victory, cause its so easy to beat other armies with eldar or tau. This leads to the conclusion that they all are tactical geniuses. So when they get stomped by the other OP army, it cant be because they have never learned to play theire army right. The one and only reason might be, that the other army is OP (while the own army isnt).

My advice: LEARN TO PLAY!

Get a mid-tier army and try to master it. All you learn will open your eyes about how powerfull tau really are and what mistakes you made, that some Space-Elf Player can stomp you that hard. Eldar arent easy to beat, but neither are tau.

"Riptides are weak"... really?... no better way to show that you havent even mastered the basics of 40k...

Lol i don't know what kind of Eldar player you play with but I have won games with 0 wave serpents...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
0 Fire Prisms and Falcons as well.

2x3 jetbikes. 1 seer , 1 titan . 1500pts. no serpents , no prisms , no falcons.

Actually...

Autarch: Warp jump Generator, Scorpion Chainsword, Banshee Mask, Fusion Gun
Warlock x2
Guardian x11: Star Cannon
Guardian x10: Star Cannon
Guardian x10: Star Cannon
Crimson Hunter Exarch
Warp Spiders x10
Swooping Hawks x5
Swooping Hawk Exarch, Sunrifle
WraithKnight
Warwalkers x3: Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser, Star Engines

1500 points

MasterOfGaunts wrote:
Its always the same...

I hear Tau Players complaining about the OP Eldar
I hear Eldar Players complaining about the OP Tau

Most of them never had to fight for a victory, cause its so easy to beat other armies with eldar or tau. This leads to the conclusion that they all are tactical geniuses. So when they get stomped by the other OP army, it cant be because they have never learned to play theire army right. The one and only reason might be, that the other army is OP (while the own army isnt).

My advice: LEARN TO PLAY!

Get a mid-tier army and try to master it. All you learn will open your eyes about how powerfull tau really are and what mistakes you made, that some Space-Elf Player can stomp you that hard. Eldar arent easy to beat, but neither are tau.

"Riptides are weak"... really?... no better way to show that you havent even mastered the basics of 40k...

Read the list of armies I collect below. Dark Eldar and Tyranids are my two biggest and most played armies. Would I play those armies in a tournie? No. Because even in friendly games the dark eldar army has an annoying habit of exploding in the first turn of shooting and my tyranid army is little more than a shooting gallery where you put over a hundred models on the board and promptly have to take them off the board.

It is not "easy" to beat other armies with tau. I have had to fight to win most of the battles I've fought. Theres a few which have been outrageously one sided but mostly they require list building, unit and target priority to clear objectives; luck to resist enemy shooting etc etc.

The game does not require skill or thought to play. The game is 100% about hard counters, list building and imbalances in the codex; especially where price costs are concerned. There is no way that a raider should cost almost as much as a wave serpant considering a stray breeze causes a raider to explode whereas.


Yes riptides are piss. They do not kill things. Their only use is as an AA platform and because they look cool. Give me a squad of crisis suits any day. That is real killing power. Riptides are crap. I 've played against a tau list with two riptides. They were no more damage dealing than a single fire warrior squad. I had much more trouble from the crisis teams and, well, his fire warriors. My own tide managed to get some lucky shots and down both of them as they;d sustained heavy damage from previous phases of shooting. But, yeah they didn't really do enough. Waste of a precious elites slot. Its not like you can even spam them. There is an absolute cap of 3 in any army. They are the most over hyped unit ever and I haven't heard or more importantly seen a single indication that they're this god unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 purplkrush wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
No I've won every battle I've fought with the new Tau. Not always by a huge margin and I've came a hairs breath from losing occasionally.

But both eldar games I got ku splatted.

Ahhh, that's what I was waiting for. So you've been crushing your local group. You think you've got it down and got hammered in the pro league. Now you wanna bitch. You sounded more than just a wee bit spoiled. Become a better player and stay out of the tournies until you have your ass handed to you a few more times.

No, I beat the pro league last time and the game where I should have lost (the hardest I ever fought) and only did on technicality was in a friendly game against a necron player. I even beat the guys tau army that actually won the mini tounrmant.

To go from having close fought or one sided to being effortlessly pasted with the eldar army suffering negligible losses is pretty indicative.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Just played in a local tourney recently with 16 players and the eldar came in the top 3. My Tau army got absolutely butchered. The three main problems were:

1. Wave Serpant spam

AV12, puts out more shots than a MBT with excellant range and strength and ignore cover/shred armor and has 4+ cover itself. Somebody rolls out 6 of these then they'll take apart whole squads easily. More importantly, the high armour value makes them totally immune to the weapons of tau troops. Having played Dark Eldar and considering the huge limitations to their vehicles its just an OP unit TBH; massively under-costed. Seriously I was getting sarcastic towards the end of the last battle and asking the guy if his wave serpant ignored invulnerable saves as well. Which he actually checked as well.

2. Seer council on jetbikes

2+ re-rollable armour saves. 2+ re-rollable cover saves. Can cross the entire board in one turn. Str7 re roll wounds. 4+ inv saves. Their own psychic shooting and bike weaponry.

3. Wraithknight

50/50 on this. In one battle I killed it in a single turn of shooting from a crisis team. But in another, it used its wraithcannon to instantly kill both my Riptides before going on to single handedly butcher the rest of my army.


A big problem I had with my army was that once you have used up your heavy support and elites slots the only thing you can buy is blobs of troops. This isn't a problem if the enemy also has infantry. But against an all mech army with transports immune to everything its impossible to beat. Again, IMO eldar are supposed to be an expensive fragile glasshammer and they just aren't...

1. Markerlight is your friend. Get Tetras instead of some Pathfinders and see if those help you. They have Scouts - so you can scout them up 12" or just outflank to get those hiding Waves; Skyrays launch their missiles at BS 5, ignoring cover and line of sight per markerlight used. Of course, bringing 6 or more of those Waves are just evil... so bring even more Seekers! Other option is to DS some MP/FB Crisis behind Waves (juice AV 10 behind, no Serpent Shield!)

2. Ignores Cover and Plasma suits. DS as far as Baron as possible (if he's using him) and burn them in plasma. They'll get re-rollable 4++, but better that than 2+.

3. Kroot snipers (they're troops! Imagine how many you can bring) or seekers as well.

Seriously learn how to play in a competitive environment.

Your misslesides that you should have in your army should be pasting serpents alongside your tides that will pop them with ignores cover ordnance high strength low ap large blasts.

Hammerheads are meh compared to the rest of the heavy slots. Skyrays provide an excellent platform for protecting markerlights and dealing with high priority targets early on. Misslesides provide a stupid amount of TL mid strength firepower and can paste anywhere from medium tanks to basic infantry with relative ease and only begin to struggle vs av13+.

Riptides are great, they are able to deliver high strength low ap large blasts with the potential to ignore cover (and most of the time should be) on an extremely durable amd mobile platform. They are also capable of carrying useful psychic denial relics and also can carry a decent AA weapon that fires with good reliability thanks to another relic (I am of course talking about the ECPA and ToAM Burst tide that is often allied in). Simply because you use hyperbole to show that riptides are useless and kill themselves before doing anything doesn't mean they actually do the things you have stated.

If you don't like your FWs doing nothing to mech lists (ik shocker an anti infatry unit being helpless to mech) try taking kroot instead for the stray glances. You wont have to worry about getting shot off the board since you can simply reserve and outflank them for forward scoring later in the game and they can deal with anything but av13+.

For dealing with av13+ have a squad of melta suits that you should have taken from those farsight allies deep strike onto those tanks and kill them alongisde riptides of both varieties being able to deal with them with the high amount of rending shots and high strength ordinance. This is also another place where skyrays are your friend since av13 seems to go down to mass seeker missles but I camt say I would recommend them for av14.

Beating an eldar serpent spam list isnt all that hard to do if you have any remote idea as to what tau should be doing in the competitive scene but clearly you are stubborn and refuse to open your eyes to anything but slowly plucking wound off of WKs with hammerheads and being upset because a weapon has the potential to cause ID to your riptide that seems to be killing itself anyways because your dice only roll 1s and 2s and you can't learn how to ignore cover with your AT weapons on serpents that aparently have already killed your infantry but don't worry they weren't doing anything anyways since serpents aparently have no weaknesses or vulnerabilities and are just the worst thing ever to happen.

Look dude, most of these people have already said it, but I'll say it again.

Bad luck happens.

The Heavy Wraithcannon is only Instant Death on a 6 to wound. The fact that it happened twice in the same game is amazing, considering that the Wraithknight only has two shots per shooting phase.

You're problem is that you'r basing your opinion off of one or two games against Eldar. Any statistician would tell you that at that small of a sample you're data could be awfully skewed by outliers.

The other problem is that the tasks for your Riptides are wrong. They are supposed to be the beat-stick unit for your army while you move into proper game-winning positions while doing moderate to significant damage to the enemy's army. I run two Riptides in my list, one as an IA/Plasma for anti-teq, and the other as HBC/SMS for anti-infantry and (dare I say it), anti-tank. Both Riptides handle the midfield while the rest of my army sits back and supports the hell out of them. But the most important fact is that they need support to be effective.

This is the list I used at my LGS during their last league to great effect. I went 13-1 (my only loss was against a very exprienced Eldar player with the Dice gods in his favor, much like your situation).

HQ
Support Commander - MSSS, Stims, Iridium Armor, Drone Controller, Neuroweb System Jammer, PENChip, and CCN (if you have the points)

Ethereal

Elites -
Riptides as mentioned above, give both Intercept, and give the HBC Velocity Tracker.

Troops -
3x Firewarriors (w/ 9 per squad)
10-15 Kroot w/ sniper rounds

Fast Attack -
Pathfinders x8

Heavy Support - (This is where my list gets fun)
Railsides x3 - Shas'vre (For precision shot), Target Lock on all three, and 6 Marker Drones. Put the Support commander in front of this unit, and in a tall piece of terrain for 6 BS5 markerlights that are also twin-linked (Netting at least one to two hits on flyers). The the cover ignoring, tank/monster hunting nature of the Str 8 ap 1 shots will net a couple wounds on that Wraithknight or pop up to three Serpents that have fired their shields.

Missilesides x3 - Intercept on all three, Shas'vre, and 6 missile drones. Put the Ethereal in this unit and give him a quad gun for a lolable 40 shots, 32 of which are str 7, 28 of which are twin linked. Give this unit 2-3 markerlights for 38 WOUNDS on anything t5 or lower. Or a decent handful of wounds on that same Wraithknight. I'm sure he won't be happy to make 13 3+ armor saves. (FYI, my local meta hates this unit more than SPESS MUHREENS hate Chaos)

Skyray with D Pods

All this for 1850.

Put a Squad of firewarriors in base to base of the Aegis and GTG all game, lollable 2+ cover save. This unit will act as a counter charge bubble wrap for your Broadsides.

But the Railsides high like mentioned before, and the missilesides by the quad gun.

Let your Riptides play all day in the sun in the middle of the field and laugh as you neuter your opponents army by turn 2.

The most important aspect of Tau is what you need to exploit the most, every unit has MULTIPLE tasks that can be accomplished. The list I mentioned above is INCREDIBLY versatile to all but Land Raider Spam (My only counter could be lucky rolls on the HBC or smashing with the Riptides). And play it like the Tau Fluff, there may be times when you need to sacrifice units FOR THE GREATER GOOD! The Riptides may not win you the game by themselves, but give your HBC 6 markerlights and it'll do some serious damage.

TL/DR - Luck/Dice gods were against you in that game. Play the list again with the previous game in mind and you will play differently. You learn MORE from when you lose then from when you win.

Or you're just terribad. Your pick.

Edit- Forgot I actually fielded Pathfinders... Lol.

Wait another week or so for 7th Edition and start complaining about Ork swarms consolidating into other combats and wiping out entire back lines with Storm Boyz.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Riptides are OP. If you don't see that, then I can't help you.

They aren't. They do jack in every battle I fight. I ve seen trygons and carnifexs take apart armies, crisis suits blast apart enemy tanks and fire warriors wipe out whole squads of terminators with markerlights. The riptide is meh.

Just take something else than - what's the problem. Noone forces you to play with just riptides - you got plenty of solid options.

Yep and moaning tau looks fun Greentide player here

Don't have £200 to spend on broadsides and nor would I.

I'll give a breakdown of what happened in both games.

Game 1

Eldar get first turn

Eldar Turn 1

Webspinner blows up longstrike and a squad of pathfinders.

Seer council n Wraithknight advance within 6'' of my army

Warp spiders cut apart one squad

One wound off a tide from the knight

Lots of regular infantry n pathfinders in cover dead from wave serpants.

Tau turn 1

Marker the Wraithknight, Shadowsun and co kill it.

Marker a unit of warp spider and kill it

Seer council lose one man to one tide, 2 squads of kroot and two squads of fire warriors. Oh and an over charged gatling riptide. Lose one man to lucky a kroot shot. (he failed 2 2+ saves)

Ion hammerhead and ion tide fail to destroy webspinner

Eldar turn 2

One wave serpant kills Shadwosun and three battlesuits in one turn despite having 2+ cover and 2 shield drones.

Rest of wave serpants continue to shred my infantry to paste.

Seer council multi charge kroot squad and a hammerhead. Destroy both.

Eldar move to take objective with small squad of bikes and disembark dire avengers.

Tau turn 2

Riptides kill a unit of dire avengers and a unit of bikes on objectives.

Remaining army fire achieves very little.

Eldar and tau turn 3

He moves other dire avengers onto my objectives as the seer council kills whats left of the infantry.

Wave serpants fail to kill riptides.

My riptides fire fails to kill unit of dire avengers on objective across the board.

Riptide fails to rout unit of dire avengers on a different objective (cheap five man units BTW)

Eldar and Tau turn 4

Same thing except this seer council moved across the board in one turn to reach my riptide as it finally killed the unit of dire avengers.

Total victory for the Eldar



Second Game

Eldar get first turn

Wraithcannon instantly kills gatling riptide

Fire prism destroys hammerhead

Wave serpants knock out a drone and kill some infantry

D cannons fire as well

Tau turn 1

Shadowsun kills his farseer and a few D cannons before jumping back into cover.

Riptide and ion hammerhead try to shoot wraithknight and it loses no wounds.

Eldar turn 2

Wraithknight moves closer, doesn't kill anything this turn.

Lots of infantry lost.

Shadowsun loses a suit as more wave serpants start to surround the area

Warp spiders and jet arrive to cause more casualties among the infantry.

Tau Turn 2

One ion tide manages to blow up a wave serpant with some markerlight support.

Even with tank hunters and point blank fusion n plasma at bs5 not one tank is destroyed by shadowsun n co.

Hammerhead takes a wound off knight.

Pulse rifle fire bounces off wraithknight

Manage to knock some HP off his flier with pulse rifles

Eldar turn 3

Wave serpant spam kills shadowsun despite 2+ cover saves

Stranded guardian squad moves up to objective

Wraithknight charges and kills fire warrior squad

Warp spiders and wave serpants shred more infantry

Tau Turn 3

I blow up his flier

Fail to wound wraithknight or blow up a wave serpant with head or tide.

Kroot squad kills guardian squad with rapid fire guns. (WTF not)

Eldar turn 4

Wraithcannon kills second riptide (not sure if this happened earlier actually. I think the Knight might have charged those fire warriors in the second turn and blown this up in the third)

Vyper, spiders, fire prism and serpants shred forward infantry leaving only one pathfinder squad and a hammerhead.

Tau turn 4

Ping

Eldar turn 5

Wraithknight shoots and destroys hammerhead

Rest of eldar army destroys remaining pathfinders.


Incredibly one sided victory for the eldar with them suffering negligible losses

I find the hammer of wrath USR is great vs op army builds I always keep one under my gaming table so I can smite armies irl if needed. It only takes a couple of hits of good hammer of wrath hits to kill a wave serpent.

In all seriousness how does this even happen, ''One wave serpant kills Shadwosun and three battlesuits in one turn despite having 2+ cover and 2 shield drones.''
I guess you cant factor for luck, seems there was quite a few bad luck moments during those games.

''Seer council multi charge kroot squad and a hammerhead. Destroy both.''
Also I thought the charge rules prohibit purposeful multi charge?

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
I find the hammer of wrath USR is great vs op army builds I always keep one under my gaming table so I can smite armies irl if needed. It only takes a couple of hits of good hammer of wrath hits to kill a wave serpent.

In all seriousness how does this even happen, ''One wave serpant kills Shadwosun and three battlesuits in one turn despite having 2+ cover and 2 shield drones.''
I guess you cant factor for luck, seems there was quite a few bad luck moments during those games.

''Seer council multi charge kroot squad and a hammerhead. Destroy both.''
Also I thought the charge rules prohibit purposeful multi charge?

Multicharge is permitted.

Ignores Cover probably helped kill SS's squad.

Still - D6+1 are ignores cover, and if youre tl'ing them you dont get much other shooting. that shouldnt take out that many wounds (even with the ID on shadowsun)

Riptides are terrible has to be one of the funniest concepts I've seen in a while. Really, truly funny that this is a serious statement from someone.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Still - D6+1 are ignores cover, and if youre tl'ing them you dont get much other shooting. that shouldnt take out that many wounds (even with the ID on shadowsun)

Riptides are terrible has to be one of the funniest concepts I've seen in a while. Really, truly funny that this is a serious statement from someone.

The monofilamant weapon uses a models initiative instead of its toughness to determine instant death. So the shield and shuriken cannons instant killed the suits. Might have been something else, think he said it added +1 str to the shield attack so that it was str8. But yeah, one turn of shooting from a single wave serpant. Regardless, some weird rule meant the suits were instant deathed by the wave serpants weapons and ignored cover.


Actually he wasn't able to use the neutralize cover power as he was too busy buffing the seer council.


The riptides lost me both those battles and were a waste of points. They were easily the weakest link in the army and killed the least number of units.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Still - D6+1 are ignores cover, and if youre tl'ing them you dont get much other shooting. that shouldnt take out that many wounds (even with the ID on shadowsun)

Riptides are terrible has to be one of the funniest concepts I've seen in a while. Really, truly funny that this is a serious statement from someone.

The monofilamant weapon uses a models initiative instead of its toughness to determine instant death. So the shield and shuriken cannons instant killed the suits. Might have been something else, think he said it added +1 str to the shield attack so that it was str8. But yeah, one turn of shooting from a single wave serpant. Regardless, some weird rule meant the suits were instant deathed by the wave serpants weapons and ignored cover.


Actually he wasn't able to use the neutralize cover power as he was too busy buffing the seer council.


The riptides lost me both those battles and were a waste of points. They were easily the weakest link in the army and killed the least number of units.

...That is BS. You can't add +1 str to the shield.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Still - D6+1 are ignores cover, and if youre tl'ing them you dont get much other shooting. that shouldnt take out that many wounds (even with the ID on shadowsun)

Riptides are terrible has to be one of the funniest concepts I've seen in a while. Really, truly funny that this is a serious statement from someone.

The monofilamant weapon uses a models initiative instead of its toughness to determine instant death. So the shield and shuriken cannons instant killed the suits. Might have been something else, think he said it added +1 str to the shield attack so that it was str8. But yeah, one turn of shooting from a single wave serpant. Regardless, some weird rule meant the suits were instant deathed by the wave serpants weapons and ignored cover.


Actually he wasn't able to use the neutralize cover power as he was too busy buffing the seer council.


The riptides lost me both those battles and were a waste of points. They were easily the weakest link in the army and killed the least number of units.

huh? Monofilament, a rule which is NOT part of the Energy Shield, increases S by 1 if you are I3 or below. It does not use your init to determine instant death. Well, not any version that I know of. There is no way that you can increase the S7 of the shield to S8.

Sounds like youre complaining about someone cheating and beating you because of it.

It's funny this is the second thread you have created where you are extremely angry and have no clue what you're talking about.

I think the first thing you can do to improve your games against eldar would be to have a basic understanding of their rules.

Trystis wrote:
It's funny this is the second thread you have created where you are extremely angry and have no clue what you're talking about.

I think the first thing you can do to improve your games against eldar would be to have a basic understanding of their rules.

I am in a much better position to talk about how my games went than you. Riptides have never performed effectively for me no matter how many markerlights you chuck at them. They do not even come close to the effectiveness of a squad of crisis suits in lethality. In fact I've won quite a lot of games because the enemy player wastes whole units worth of shooting on them instead of my tanks and infantry; which they could have easily shredded. But no dem riptides is so OP. The first eldar player had it absolutely right. Ignore them, they're fething useless; kill the rest of the army.

I think it was an honest mistake on the eldar players part with the ID but I can only trust what the player tells me.


Also, WTF should I be required to spend £30 on another army codex just so I can look up its rules to have some inkling about the current meta? I kind of rely on the other player knowing his own armies rules; not the other way around...


If this is about the book thread, Path of the Archon was a terrible book with a hugely disappointing ending and one that has a stupid plot armor harlequin as the main character. If the author wants to write a book about the harlequin then he can do it and save me wasting money on a book which was mis sold as a dark eldar novel. It is exactly the same thing they did with "fire caste" that was really just a guard/chaos novel.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Riptides are OP. If you don't see that, then I can't help you.

They aren't. They do jack in every battle I fight. I ve seen trygons and carnifexs take apart armies, crisis suits blast apart enemy tanks and fire warriors wipe out whole squads of terminators with markerlights. The riptide is meh.

Hello there anecdote.

Every time my Tyrannofexes look at a Riptide they cry themselves to sleep. My Trygons look upon Wraithknights with stark envy, and with Carnifexes you either go Dakkafexes or (hideously expensive) pimped out Wrecker nodes or go home because the other Carnifex options are so underwhelmingly meh. Tyranid monstrous creatures have long been overshadowed by the considerably more ridiculous MCs other armies are fielding, starting with the Dreadknight's "S10 AP2 instant death at initiative on a well armored and ridiculously fast platform, also incinerators" shenanigans, to the Chaos Daemon's "you know how if a Hive Tyrant is really lucky it can get good psychic powers? Well all our MCs that aren't khornate can do that, and they also fly, and have stupid good relics and rollable buffs", to the Tau's "You know how the T-fex is really durable but doesn't have enough dakka to be of much concern and can't escape assaults it's weedy ass is going to be tarpitted in all game long at best? Well this here has none of those problems" Riptide, and ending with a glaive wraithknight having a heirodule level statline for half the price.

And all those weapons everyone is taking meant to deal with those monstrous creatures? Grav guns, plasma spam, high-mid strength shot spam, poison, instant death, and so on? They all butcher nidzilla units.

There was once a time when a Tyranid Monstrous creature was one of the scariest things you'd see on a field. A hive tyrant carrying a solid set of mutations, powerful melee weapons, a hardy set of tyrant guard, and a good choice of Biomorphs, this was just about the most devastating thing you'd see in assault and with armored shell and the +1 toughness mutation it could soak up fire like a champ.

Well now mutations and armored shell are gone and a pimp my melee rant would now run smack dab into a space marine smash bros unit (codex and clan raukaan versions of the space marine beatstick chaptermaster) after sucking on grav guns and then have anything left standing get it's face smashed in by thunder hammers. And now anyone with a clue keeps their Tyrants in the air.

An army that is supposed to be perhaps the premier assault army can't even match the Mario faction of the game in beatsticking, and our best deathstar (Swarmstar) is long dead and buried to add insult to injury.

What the feth?

With the exception of the Tyrannofex or a Ymgarl unit (and even then only every other turn) TMCs are krak missile bait if they aren't in the air. What's more insulting is that the Chaos Daemons MCs, Wraithknight, and Dreadknight can all be extremely lethal at both range and assault, while with the exception of the Carnifex (in numbers) and Tyrant, a Tyranid MC with a large gun is going to at best; be stuck in an assault all game long or at worst get slaughtered, while melee TMCs have at best; cute little shooting attacks that are mostly just annoying (or confusingly pointless like the Haruspex's shooting).

The Riptide's strength is that it is a god damn tank. Stock with TEQ saves, five wounds, and toughness six, all while being capable of easily avoiding assaults it doesn't want to be in or increase it's saves to hammernator equivalent levels. Already the closest a Tyranid could get to this would be a Tyrannofex in cover near a venomthrope with someone putting onslaught on it. Then the Riptide can buy FNP for itself to be even more durable; which the Tfex would need someone with catalyst to match.

The riptide has it's choice between a gun that can unleash a massive amount of rending shots (albeit one that gets a hilarious amount of gets hot rolls without twin linkage or preferred enemy) that with Velocity tracker can shred fliers or show the greater good's displeasure with a vehicle. And of course, the Ion accelerator. Extremely long ranged, capable of instant deathing T4 units and ignoring 2+ armor saves, and has a large blast off the bat. Okay sure, the Medusa also had a long ranged very high strength AP2 pie-plate but no one complained about that (it was on a much more fragile and less mobile platform though) for cheaper in a more spammable format.

What really makes the Riptide shine is when you support it. Two markerlights or a buffmander later and that gun no longer cares about cover. Three markerlights later and it's now BS5. One buffmander or farseer later and now it's also twinlinked so get's hot isn't going to be a problem. Select a group of scoring models; like some MEQs, Termies, Tyranid warriors, or anyone who hoped that cover would save them. They're no longer a factor. Horde armies will have to disperse if they don't want to die in droves, and thanks to the current wound allocation rules, dispersing means that you're now much more prone to failing a charge if overwatch eats your units. Guess who has the best overwatch in the game?

With interceptor, the Riptide also invalidates deep-strikers who aren't T5 and multiwound. Chaos Termicide or Sternguard suicide squds? How cute, *zap*. Storm troopers? *Bam*.

If you're running a mech list, if your transport has been popped, you're bunched up now. Enjoy a charged particle ladened death.

Can my Tyrannofex do anything remotely similar?

Man I wish. The best he can do is serve as a slower, much more expensive, less spammable, albeit more durable and marginally less screwed in assault Hellhound.

#FairAndBalanced.

Man, what do you want? To kill op serpents you need op broadsides. /thread

Use crysis suits with missiles. Ignore cover and you're glancing out a serpent per turn. Tau are one of a few armies that don't have problems with wave serpents and can deal with eldar in general.

total war - no, when given a set of rules that seems...suspect, ask to see the codex. Something like "oh and it Ids based on init" should probably give yo a clue, especially if you are a tournament gamer. Hell, 10 seconds research online gives you the monofilament rules.....

Rereading this thread I see that the reason you're always losing is because your foes have realized you're slow to call out cheating and are thus swindling you by outright lying about their army's capabilities.

Resolve this first before consulting us for tactics.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
total war - no, when given a set of rules that seems...suspect, ask to see the codex. Something like "oh and it Ids based on init" should probably give yo a clue, especially if you are a tournament gamer. Hell, 10 seconds research online gives you the monofilament rules.....

The tournie organiser came around and questioned it later on. But by that point an entire turn had passed and reversing it wasn't going to work. So we just let the event stand and got on with the game.



Well, normally I would question things like re-rollable 2+ armour and cover saves. ID on initiative is hardly a spectacular rule compared to that so I didn't bother questioning it too much.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Trystis wrote:
It's funny this is the second thread you have created where you are extremely angry and have no clue what you're talking about.

I think the first thing you can do to improve your games against eldar would be to have a basic understanding of their rules.

I am in a much better position to talk about how my games went than you. Riptides have never performed effectively for me no matter how many markerlights you chuck at them. They do not even come close to the effectiveness of a squad of crisis suits in lethality. In fact I've won quite a lot of games because the enemy player wastes whole units worth of shooting on them instead of my tanks and infantry; which they could have easily shredded. But no dem riptides is so OP. The first eldar player had it absolutely right. Ignore them, they're fething useless; kill the rest of the army.

I think it was an honest mistake on the eldar players part with the ID but I can only trust what the player tells me.


Also, WTF should I be required to spend £30 on another army codex just so I can look up its rules to have some inkling about the current meta? I kind of rely on the other player knowing his own armies rules; not the other way around...


If this is about the book thread, Path of the Archon was a terrible book with a hugely disappointing ending and one that has a stupid plot armor harlequin as the main character. If the author wants to write a book about the harlequin then he can do it and save me wasting money on a book which was mis sold as a dark eldar novel. It is exactly the same thing they did with "fire caste" that was really just a guard/chaos novel.

I made no comment on how your games went, just that you don't have a good understanding of the rules. if you want to win at tournaments then you are going to need to understand your opponents rules, that is really not optional because you need to know what they are capable of in order to make educated decisions on strategy. If you don't know what your opponent can do then you can't use your units effectively. You can generally learn them with out having to buy the codex, or even pirating it. There are endless guides and discussions about every army that go over these things.

I only play dark eldar so I don't understand the terrible burden it is to have to use a unit like the Riptide that the entire warhammer community thinks is OP, but apparently only functions as a paperweight to hold down an army list. I would stop arguing and try to listen to the people that you asked advice of.

I could care less if you disliked a book I thought was mediocre. I just pointed out that you had no clue what you were talking about. Before you complain about something you should actually know about it.

Serpent Shield doesnt have the monofillament rule... Sounds like someone cheated you badly, especially if they said it uses your initiative when calculating ID or not. The only weapon I could see that on is the nightspinner hitting your broadsides. It has STR 7 normally and if you are initiative 3 or lower it becomes STR 8. With a toughness 4 suit then it would be ID due to str 2x greater then toughness. Nothing you can do about that one and it is a viable strategy (seen it used against wraithstar before).

Total war - then the TO should have stepped in. THat was clear cheating. You can penalise points, call it a draw at best, etc. However given the prevalence of serpents, and the simplicity of their rules, asking to see them would be good. That many special rules (monofilament, ID on I, etc) should ring a bell for one weapon.

@Trystis

Okay. Use your eyes.

Look at my profile.

Now glance down and see the list of armies with the points attached to it.

Note that Tau are not even largest army I own and nor are they most played.

Riptides are not good. If you said I could pay the points and put them in my dark eldar or nid lists then I would say no; because it offers nothing beyond being tough to kill (assuming no ID shinanigans)

 Xerics wrote:
Actually...

Autarch: Warp jump Generator, Scorpion Chainsword, Banshee Mask, Fusion Gun
Warlock x2
Guardian x11: Star Cannon
Guardian x10: Star Cannon
Guardian x10: Star Cannon
Crimson Hunter Exarch
Warp Spiders x10
Swooping Hawks x5
Swooping Hawk Exarch, Sunrifle
WraithKnight
Warwalkers x3: Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser, Star Engines

1500 points

No reason to ever have swooping hawks unless its a 6 man squad.

Total war - then you are a lone voice, railing against vast empirical evidence otherwise.

Your limited anecdotes, in games where you were cheated, dont allow you to come to the conclusions you have done.

I especially love the "ID always" wraithguns (1/6th chance) compared t the "always fails" (or 50% fails) of the novacharge. As well as your list ignores the obvious buffmander to get TL, ignores cover and MH/TH, or ovesa star, etc,

I physcially don't own a support commander (monies) and I take Shadowsun because of the lore. So I would never take Farsight and her in the same army for any reason.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
@Trystis

Okay. Use your eyes.

Look at my profile.

Now glance down and see the list of armies with the points attached to it.

Note that Tau are not even largest army I own and nor are they most played.

Riptides are not good. If you said I could pay the points and put them in my dark eldar or nid lists then I would say no; because it offers nothing beyond being tough to kill (assuming no ID shinanigans)

None of that is going to make up for your lack of knowledge about what opponents can do.

If you don't like Riptides stop taking them. It's your opinion and you are definitely entitled to it, but you should also probably stop trying to convince the internet that their bad. The evidence that your using is terrible. Like the example with the nova reactor

You have a 33% chance to fail a your nova reactor which you apparently fail all the time, yet you also have a 33% chance of saving any wound which you never do. You have the same odds to fail the reactor as to make a save, but you act like you will always fail both.

The serpents shield has no AP value so while it ignores cover you would still get your armor save.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I physcially don't own a support commander (monies) and I take Shadowsun because of the lore. So I would never take Farsight and her in the same army for any reason.

So, when told "how to beat Eldar" your response is "but I dont want to beat them that way"

Sorry, dont post threads if you dont like the answers. And the empirical proof is that a) your contention that the riptide is bad is wrong. Flat out, wrong and b) you need to up your knowledge of other codexes, You can do this by asking to see your opponents special rules in their codex, and just spending 5 monutes on the internet.

With how much information he's glazing over, I think he's just trolling the community at this point.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I physcially don't own a support commander (monies) and I take Shadowsun because of the lore. So I would never take Farsight and her in the same army for any reason.

So not only do you rely on bad anecdotal evidence to challenge common and long ago determined consensus but you complain about losing when you don't even ask if someone is cheating so hard they could eat the whole damn pumpkin patch (monofilament on an energy weapon should have been a red flag), then you flatly refuse advice given to you and then say you're bringing a fluff army to a presumably highly competitive tournament.

I think we're about done here.

So, you say Riptides are awful. Every disagrees with you due to almost two years of evidence to the contrary? Even saying "They're alright" is a huge understatement. They're so good compared to what every other army has that it's almost comical.
You're not going to convince anyone that they're awful.
So, you next try to explain how you lost, but what you're saying shows an almost fundamental lack of knowledge about the rules.
Then when people offer you really good advice on how to beat Eldar you dismiss it without a thought

So....what's the point of your thread? Tell us in simple terms.

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, you say Riptides are awful. Every disagrees with you due to almost two years of evidence to the contrary? Even saying "They're alright" is a huge understatement. They're so good compared to what every other army has that it's almost comical.
You're not going to convince anyone that they're awful.
So, you next try to explain how you lost, but what you're saying shows an almost fundamental lack of knowledge about the rules.
Then when people offer you really good advice on how to beat Eldar you dismiss it without a thought

So....what's the point of your thread? Tell us in simple terms.

He came here to piss & moan. He has never had a truly valid argument & the more he talked, the more evident that became. He made poor decisions had some appaling dice rolls & is trying to convince us (& himself it sounds like) that not only are Riptides crap but that Eldar are an unbeatable force on the field that lay waste to entire armies w/ a couple of sepents & a WK.

He even came out & said that Tau are his least played army, yet until the tourney, has never lost w/ them. Point seems pretty clear...

~Vryce

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, you say Riptides are awful. Every disagrees with you due to almost two years of evidence to the contrary? Even saying "They're alright" is a huge understatement. They're so good compared to what every other army has that it's almost comical.
You're not going to convince anyone that they're awful.
So, you next try to explain how you lost, but what you're saying shows an almost fundamental lack of knowledge about the rules.
Then when people offer you really good advice on how to beat Eldar you dismiss it without a thought

So....what's the point of your thread? Tell us in simple terms.

RIptides are over hyped compared to other things in the Tau army. If you've seen fusion-plasma suits shred tanks and elite infantry in the first turn with 2+ cover then my view on this isn't difficult to understand. I know they are over hyped because in my circle of friends they have all went on for ages about how OP riptides are without ever having played a game against them. The one who has, when I asked him, said he didn't really think much of the one riptide I had as all it did was tap a few wounds off some tomb spiders with its ion.

My own experience with riptides is that they either waddle about soaking up fire or waddle about killing themselves with their nova reactor. The absolute best I have ever done with a riptide was when I shot down two vendettas loaded with troops. But that was luck and the guy I was playing was right to say so given the AV of both the vendetta.

Eldar are over powered. See the Seer council on jetbikes as an example.


I am not dismissing the advice of getting a support commander, missile sides or crisis teams with two missile pods as effective counters. I only dismiss the Shadowsun/farsight combo coz thats just plain stupid. Its because I physically don't have the money to buy those extra models if I wanted to conform to wsywig (in friendly games its irrelevant of course as I could just use a regular XV8 to represent any weapon combo, a commander or a missileside). So I am asking if there is a counter I could use with my current army as it is.

Well I if you want to know how a casual tau list can beay a competitive eldar list ot really cannot be done in the same way a casual BT list cannot beat a competitive tau list.

 Vryce wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
So, you say Riptides are awful. Every disagrees with you due to almost two years of evidence to the contrary? Even saying "They're alright" is a huge understatement. They're so good compared to what every other army has that it's almost comical.
You're not going to convince anyone that they're awful.
So, you next try to explain how you lost, but what you're saying shows an almost fundamental lack of knowledge about the rules.
Then when people offer you really good advice on how to beat Eldar you dismiss it without a thought

So....what's the point of your thread? Tell us in simple terms.

He even came out & said that Tau are his least played army, yet until the tourney, has never lost w/ them. Point seems pretty clear...

~Vryce

No I came second in a previous tournie. Most of the friendly games I have played have been with my dark eldar or my tyranids, the last of which I have played over multiple editions.

The number of Tau games with 6th ed I played is 11 games played with 2 defeats

Tau and Tau vs Dark Angels and Dark Eldar - Tau win

Tau vs Dark Angels - win

Tau vs Dark Angels - win

Tau vs Tau - win (just)

Tau vs Guard - win (just) Tournie game

Tau vs Ravenwing - win (just) Tournie game

Tau vs Orks - win Tournie game

Tau vs Necrons - win (just)

Tau vs Eldar - loss major Tournie game

Tau vs Astra Militarum - win Tounrie game

Tau vs Eldar - loss major Tournie game

This is over like two years and the first three battles were all on one day.

So you continue to play riptides, even though you 'think' they are p*ss and awful?

This would confirm you're either trolling, lying or delusional.

End of the day, if you genuinely think riptides are poor, you're a bad player. Period.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
Actually...

Autarch: Warp jump Generator, Scorpion Chainsword, Banshee Mask, Fusion Gun
Warlock x2
Guardian x11: Star Cannon
Guardian x10: Star Cannon
Guardian x10: Star Cannon
Crimson Hunter Exarch
Warp Spiders x10
Swooping Hawks x5
Swooping Hawk Exarch, Sunrifle
WraithKnight
Warwalkers x3: Scatter Laser, Scatter Laser, Star Engines

1500 points

No reason to ever have swooping hawks unless its a 6 man squad.

There are 6 in there. 5 normal and 1 Exarch.

Wait till the new rules drop to make sure what the new deal is out there before spending more money.

My marines cry when they face Riptides. If it passes its Nova, it kills whatever it wants (I play Power Armor-heavy). If it fails, it can still do damage. Either way, t6 2+/5++ with lots of wounds is really hard for them to remove.

My Footdar can usually torch the Riptides support, making its firepower manageable. However, it can usually kill anything but a Wraithknight, Serpent, or Council. And short of Wraiths or Councils, riptides are still usually not feasibly killed.

You ran into some currently OP builds at a tourny, but you refuse to look at it rationally. The Riptide is amazing, but it's not quite point-and-click.

Also, did bringing a Tau gun line to one tpurny lead to escalation in the next?

Bharring wrote:
My marines cry when they face Riptides. If it passes its Nova, it kills whatever it wants (I play Power Armor-heavy). If it fails, it can still do damage. Either way, t6 2+/5++ with lots of wounds is really hard for them to remove.

My Footdar can usually torch the Riptides support, making its firepower manageable. However, it can usually kill anything but a Wraithknight, Serpent, or Council. And short of Wraiths or Councils, riptides are still usually not feasibly killed.

You ran into some currently OP builds at a tourny, but you refuse to look at it rationally. The Riptide is amazing, but it's not quite point-and-click.

Also, did bringing a Tau gun line to one tpurny lead to escalation in the next?

An overcharged IA kills scoring units and most elites dead. The Nova charge can be used to get a 3++ or fly across the board with a thrust move.

Obvious troll is obvious.

At this point I would just say I was a troll to save face. You look slowed in this thread. Are you like 8? Or are you seriously this dense?

nemesis464 wrote:
So you continue to play riptides, even though you 'think' they are p*ss and awful?

This would confirm you're either trolling, lying or delusional.

End of the day, if you genuinely think riptides are poor, you're a bad player. Period.

In all fairness, Riptides rely on support to become truly terrifying. That shouldn't be hard at all with Tau, but 'tides do become more manageable for your opponent if they first take out the support.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Eldar are over powered. See the Seer council on jetbikes as an example.

It's also expensive.

3 HQs at 350 points, plus 50 points per Warlock, you are looking at 400-1050 points in a single unit. The only surefire counter to something like that is an equally expensive unit.

Or Imperial Knights, but I don't think they actually exist.

He's obviously just trolling. As noted, the fact that he glosses over posts that absolutely crush his point, like saying nova charges "always fail" with a 33% chance while wraith-cannons "always ID" with a 16% chance, are proof enough that he's not actually interested in having a discussion. He's just fething with the forum.