It's pretty obvious that daemons (and a few others) are beyond ridiculous with the number of Warp Charges they can get so I believe tournaments should agree to cap warp charges at 12 like in fantasy just for overall balance.
wargamer1985 wrote: no plain no and no some more just cos i choose to field a tzeentch army and you dont i shouldnt be penalised
and secondly to cast a lvl3 charge spell you gotta throw 9 dice at it to get it off so with a cap of 12 for example all i have left is 1 1charge spell
You can use 3 to have a chance. Nine just makes it statistically likely. There is no requirement to use 9 beyond mathhammer. The mechanic is broken and goes a step too far beyond what nids get.
My common Tzeentch list has:
Fateweaver, (who generates 8WC in 7e)
Three PML3 Tzeralds
Two PML3 Princes
Pink Horror unit
That's 24WC. More than lots of armies, waaay less than a Psyker-tailored list can bring.
In 6e, I could reliably get off 15 powers a turn.
In 7e....
If I want to cast Iron Arm, Endurance, Warp Speed, Life Leech, and Psychic Shriek, that's 10WC already (to make sure to pass). Now I have 2xPrescience, so that's another 8WC (to make sure to pass).
Now I have 6WC left for ALL my Flickering Fire and ALL of Fatey's shooting. Nowhere near enough. Previously, I could roll around 10D6 shots for Flickering Fire, from the whole army. Now? I'll be lucky to get off 4D6.
Tzeentch builds got a serious nerf with the new way of doing things.
Or just get rid of summoning completely instead of trying to find some perfect balance thst doesn't exist or harming other psychic powers as a side effect. There is no baby in this 7e bathwater, just a big stinking floating turd ready to throw away.
Im from the camp of 1 summon per turn. This way a wrap charge heavy army still gets to dominate the psychic phase and flickering fire armies can still fire their already unreliable guns. It is a simple and non invasive way to prevent demon factory while still letting psychic armies keep their flavor.
wargamer1985 wrote: no plain no and no some more just cos i choose to field a tzeentch army and you dont i shouldnt be penalised
and secondly to cast a lvl3 charge spell you gotta throw 9 dice at it to get it off so with a cap of 12 for example all i have left is 1 1charge spell
You can use 3 to have a chance. Nine just makes it statistically likely. There is no requirement to use 9 beyond mathhammer. The mechanic is broken and goes a step too far beyond what nids get.
To be fair, 'statistically likely' is what people are going for. Tossing three dice there is really just a hope and a prayer, it's not a tactic that's breaking the game. When you need to toss 9 dice at a WC3 power, even the shiniest Tzeentch lists can only do that three times a turn (at 2000 points in 1 BFFO anyway). After that the list has 7 dice left, which might get a fourth off, but maybe not. I might agree with you that raising 3 GDs of Tzeentch is pretty nasty, but that list will sacrifice a minimum of 285 pts to do so, which takes some of the sting out, plus the armies WC dice wouldn't actually increase. As people have mentioned, the Tzeentch list in question doesn't pack much of a punch outside the summoning either, since they can't lay pipe with shooting powers and also spam summon in the same turn. I'm sure there are more devious summoning strategies than the one I outlined, but they all have the same basic drawback relative to the use of shooting powers.
That''s not to say that 34 WC dice isn't potentially really sexy, because it is, but I'm not sure it's quite a nasty as people fear either, at least within the confines of a single FOC. When I see people splitting FOCs to get a second round of Heralds things start to get a little iffy for me, but that's a much easier fix than messing around with WC caps. I definitely want to get some sample size on the new rules before I'd endorse wholesale changes to the rules (and no, I don't own a single Tzeentch daemon).
hotsauceman1 wrote: Yes, Beause too many people can toss dice at the other player during their psychic phase to turn off all their powers.
Math doesn't support you though. WC 1 powers are easy to stop, the second you start needed 2 6s you're looking at poor odds to stop them. I have a farseer and a spirit seer and I couldn't shut down a 12 WC daemon army for gak.
Im finding low WC armies have to prioritize the most important powers to get off and they still struggle to do so, while WC spam armies dominate the phase with impunity. If warp charges don't get capped you'll see daemons everywhere and taking psykers becomes pointless in a competitive environment, much like the idea of inquisitors with servo skulls stopped white scar players from even attending with that army.
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jy2 wrote: Don't like a hard cap. It just makes the rest of the army useless after 1 or 2 psykers cast their powers.
The thing though is daemons make every other armies psykers useless. If you just have a ML 1 libby you might as well not bothering to cast against daemons.
Elric Greywolf wrote: My common Tzeentch list has:
Fateweaver, (who generates 8WC in 7e)
Three PML3 Tzeralds
Two PML3 Princes
Pink Horror unit
That's 24WC. More than lots of armies, waaay less than a Psyker-tailored list can bring.
In 6e, I could reliably get off 15 powers a turn.
In 7e....
If I want to cast Iron Arm, Endurance, Warp Speed, Life Leech, and Psychic Shriek, that's 10WC already (to make sure to pass). Now I have 2xPrescience, so that's another 8WC (to make sure to pass).
Now I have 6WC left for ALL my Flickering Fire and ALL of Fatey's shooting. Nowhere near enough. Previously, I could roll around 10D6 shots for Flickering Fire, from the whole army. Now? I'll be lucky to get off 4D6.
Tzeentch builds got a serious nerf with the new way of doing things.
A hard cap is just a really dumb idea.
Tzeentch got a nerf? Read cursed earth and chaos focus.
Your army is an example of not abusing it to its full potential, if you went all daemonology you can get multiple cursed earths off and get tons of 2++ rerollables. You're playing on friendly mode, and in tournaments your army could easily dominate anyone in the psychic phase and get multiple units out every turn, on average you could summon 40 daemons a turn, or 30 and 3 cursed earths. a decent psyker army might shut 1 of those down.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I found that most of my pskyers where useless if I wanted to cast more powers even w/o a cap. But I need them for the WC
There will always be that discrepency if you bring a psychic-lite army.
Like if you run Tau against orks. Since Tau will outshoot orks like 1000 to 1, why don't we cap the number of shots Tau can take to 20 per turn then?
But tau aren't shooting to create 1000+ extra points in units for their army, now are they?
But I think your comment has showen what the crutch of the issue is. Capping the warp charge isn't getting to the root of the problem, the problem is the summoning powers becomeing so OP when you have that much dice to throw at them to make sure they get off.
People want to limit the warp charge points to nerf the deamon factory list, but that dose nerf other pychers.
Tournments need to ban the deamon summoning powers if they want to adress the power balence issues it creates with out crippleing other armies like Elric Greywolf's that is a deamon list that isn't actully trying to abuse it.
Thud wrote: The problem with a hard cap is that it nerfs more than you are aiming to fix. I'd rather see some restrictions on how many units you can summon.
It nails WC spam armies, not many others are hurt by it. My Eldar runs a farseer and a spiritseer, even with a 6 I hit 11 WC, not many armies will get beyond that without it getting silly. max 2 level 3s will get is 12.
Breng77 wrote: So you are saying daemons who rely on psykers for like 80% of their shooting should for go their ability to shoot?
Most 6th e daemon lists produce 15-20 dice easy.6x 11+ horrors gives you 12. A hard cap is simply put a bad idea.
Well take your pick, you either get spam 2++ rerollable spam hordes with 500+pts of free models or get daemons to ease up on their mediocre shooting. Plus the rulebook caps powers at once per unit. So they aren't even able to throw that much out anymore. 6 casts pf cursed earth makes its combat units strong enough.
Ummm....you do know cursed earth doesn't stack correct? The brb says you can only be effected by the same blessing once. So there is no 2++ re-rollable horde, it is a bunch of 4++ models.
As to using it on shooting, some people will, the hard cap is simply put a bad fix that amounts to "you can only cast 3 or 4 powers per turn".
As for the rule book capping to powers once per unit, that is actually debatable. That rule is talking about psychic units, which earlier in the same chapter are stated to be equivalent to psykers, brotherhoods of psykers, and psychic pilots. So that line may very well mean that a psyker, unit with bop, or psychic pilot cannot cast the same power twice.
How long do you think Tzeentch armies summoning Daemons will last when you are contemplating throwing 9 dice a summon? They may not Peril on every double, but throwing that many dice, they're still likely to peril just about every turn.
The REAL problem is that Deny The Witch isn't balanced. At least in fantasy you more often than not have a similar amount of dice to your opponent.
Honestly if you in the opponents Psychic Phase got a number of warp charges equal to the total combined mastery levels of their psykers to Deny The Witch, and they got that +D6 to Manifest it would be very fair.
I disagree playes should be able to leverage psykers to an advantage, the problem is that it is too hard to deny. If instead deny was say roll more 4+ dice than your opponent! or cancel enough charges that they don't meet the minimum requirement it would be ok. I.e. For a 3 warp charge power if you roll three 4+, I only need to cancel.1 to shut the power down. If you roll 4 I need to cancel 2 etc.
Got two games in last eve with a balanced daemon list, 20wc, and the mechanic is sound...It is just that Daemons and Eldar are the psyker masters in 7e 40k...nothing more, nothing less...both games were even, winning one and getting aced by skyblight nids...I was missing powers and scoring perils all over the place...not to count getting denied several occasions...albeit my opponents were bankrolling dice to land on specific powers...summoning is also not broken...IMO the deep strike mechanic is what keeps it in check...many units will misshap if you are attempting to flood the field from your backfield and if you are using FMC's to cast the summoning spells to threaten your opponent, then it is not that hard for the enemy to just ace the FMC...anyways capping the WC, or limiting summoning is not an answer to something that is not a problem...before peeps get all excited they should play some games and get a feel for it...it was much easier to cast in 6thed. for sure...More of a concern really is being able to take as many FOC's as you desire...This will create problems in structured play...But again I am in the camp of let it play out, it really does excellent things for diversity and peeps being allowed to make some cool lists(and I realize some broken one's also)...
Denying powers is extremely difficult. Have seen people talking about how they can stop powers with their 20+ dice and just not getting whether they've done the actual math.
That said, the problems are a few powers. Capping the phase just throws the baby out with the bathwater. Still much TBD.
Breng77 wrote: Ummm....you do know cursed earth doesn't stack correct? The brb says you can only be effected by the same blessing once. So there is no 2++ re-rollable horde, it is a bunch of 4++ models.
As to using it on shooting, some people will, the hard cap is simply put a bad fix that amounts to "you can only cast 3 or 4 powers per turn".
As for the rule book capping to powers once per unit, that is actually debatable. That rule is talking about psychic units, which earlier in the same chapter are stated to be equivalent to psykers, brotherhoods of psykers, and psychic pilots. So that line may very well mean that a psyker, unit with bop, or psychic pilot cannot cast the same power twice.
Stop talking common sense and using rules to prove a point man!
Haven't you heard yet? Daemons broke 7th edition last time, and they're automatically breaking it this time because it's 7th edition again! We don't need to ever play any games to see how things actually work, because it's 7th edition and Daemons broke it!!!1!!1!
Of course, it's rather funny to see an Eldar player cry foul about a re-rolled 2++ save, since they can pull the same stupid crap, but apparently it's only Daemons who ever deserve the epic shaft.
And apparently every single Daemon player is a donkey-cave WaaC'er who'll only ever run a Screamerstar + mass summoning BS, because well, there's no hate quite like Daemon-hate.
Limiting warp charges isnt good cause psychic heavy armies loose their flavour...
Banning daemonology seems to be the wrong way too, cause then you have to bann every other cheese too...
But what about the following nerf:
Summoned units need an Warp-Charge-upkeep. For example you have to get a specific number of successes equal to the summoning costs at the beginning of your psychic phase, otherwise they disappear. Doubles on an upkeep roll dont cause perils.
Capping Warp Charges isn't the best solution. While it would definitely nerf the summoning issue, it would also nerf most other psykers despite them not causing balance issues.
Summoning has internal issues, especially when used with Codex: Demons and they must be addressed on a competitive level. How is still up to debate. For now, I cannot recommend playing 7th anyway until the FAQs hit. If you still want to play with 7th, I recommend banning Daemonlogy or trying to approach it in smaller steps, e.g. by limiting the number / pointscost of demons that can be summoned etc.
The main problem with the new system is that disspelling powers is way too hard as you got less dice than your opponent who relies on casting yet your chances to dispel are significantally lower.
Casting will need to be adressed, but I recommend trying to take smaller steps by now.
why do people keep acting like chance to dispell is lower...
you used to have a 0% chance to dispell these kinds of powers...
you now have a chance better then 0%, and can throw all your dice at it.. you still generate #ML+d6 charges to dispel in your oppenents P phase too,
why on earth do people think NON psyker armies should have a 20-40% chance to dispel a power that only has a 65% chance to go off, costs 6 warp charges, and has a 26% chance to perils?
even with d6 + ML# of charges, in 7th edition, the # of powers I can cast has gone DOWN significantly, the RISK has gone UP significantly (read 5% chance to perils to 26% chance if I actually want the power to go off reliably)
powers got far harder to cast, by a much large % then the very tiny nerf to SOME DTW rolls... ESP when DTW got buffed in the respect that you can portentially dispel anything now, and choose to throw all your dice at that one power you actually need to dispel, or just bank them on an easier power to dispel like force...
hotsauceman1 wrote: I found that most of my pskyers where useless if I wanted to cast more powers even w/o a cap. But I need them for the WC
There will always be that discrepency if you bring a psychic-lite army.
Like if you run Tau against orks. Since Tau will outshoot orks like 1000 to 1, why don't we cap the number of shots Tau can take to 20 per turn then?
exactly... shooty armies dont get their shootyness nerfed just because they can out shoot everything into oblivion, at a much MUCH more reliable rate then powers can...
So why nerf psychic armies into oblivion because they psychic better then non pychic armies?
even without a cap, my GK are 100% screwed, even with stacking as many warp charges as I humanly can (which cripples my offensive power) I still cannot get even close to the # of powers off as I could in 6th... and i will be peril'ing at an average rate of 20+% instead of 5%... thats not good, thats a huge nerf.
easysauce wrote: why do people keep acting like chance to dispell is lower...
you used to have a 0% chance to dispell these kinds of powers...
you now have a chance better then 0%, and can throw all your dice at it.. you still generate #ML+d6 charges to dispel in your oppenents P phase too,
why on earth do people think NON psyker armies should have a 20-40% chance to dispel a power that only has a 65% chance to go off, costs 6 warp charges, and has a 26% chance to perils?
even with d6 + ML# of charges, in 7th edition, the # of powers I can cast has gone DOWN significantly, the RISK has gone UP significantly (read 5% chance to perils to 26% chance if I actually want the power to go off reliably)
powers got far harder to cast, by a much large % then the very tiny nerf to SOME DTW rolls... ESP when DTW got buffed in the respect that you can portentially dispel anything now, and choose to throw all your dice at that one power you actually need to dispel, or just bank them on an easier power to dispel like force...
hotsauceman1 wrote: I found that most of my pskyers where useless if I wanted to cast more powers even w/o a cap. But I need them for the WC
There will always be that discrepency if you bring a psychic-lite army.
Like if you run Tau against orks. Since Tau will outshoot orks like 1000 to 1, why don't we cap the number of shots Tau can take to 20 per turn then?
exactly... shooty armies dont get their shootyness nerfed just because they can out shoot everything into oblivion, at a much MUCH more reliable rate then powers can...
So why nerf psychic armies into oblivion because they psychic better then non pychic armies?
even without a cap, my GK are 100% screwed, even with stacking as many warp charges as I humanly can (which cripples my offensive power) I still cannot get even close to the # of powers off as I could in 6th... and i will be peril'ing at an average rate of 20+% instead of 5%... thats not good, thats a huge nerf.
Because my friend's tau don't shoot to much that they creat a rip in space time, and start spawning a extra 600+ points in units ever turn.
I also don't punch people in the face so hard in CC, that I start createing new orks because gork or maby mork willed it.
I agree that nerfing pyschic heavy armies with a cap is not a good idea. It's just the malfic powers are so abusable.
Because my friend's tau don't shoot to much that they creat a rip in space time, and start spawning a extra 600+ points in units ever turn.
you dont get 600+ pts every turn, you are making stuff up... maybe take a step back if you actually believe that, bescause it simply
Is
not
true.
you MIGHT get one or two summons off each turn... by turn 3 you statistically have killed a few of your casters if not their entire unit from perils... you are taking a very skewed and innacrurate look at this
and that is with your entire ARMY dedicated to just provideing WC's for summins, meaning you have no real offense, are crowded into your side of the table, summoning group after group of 10 models, that have to be places by deepstrike rules, right next you your board edge/troops.
So cons are: lots of perils, lots of DS mishaps, no real 1st turn offensive power, and only a 65% chance to get somthing off with a 26% chance to perils... all to get a unit of demons....
spending a whole armies worth of pts to generate a few hundred pts worth of troops per turn is not going to work as well as just spending PTs on being able to leafblower over half their army in one turn with tau style shooting...
Implying orks will not begin to spawn extra orks in CC like mushrooms
Also how are you summoning +600 points per turn!? O.o using standard summons (going to use troops) you can get 90 points or 100 points of daemons. That means about 6 casts is 540 points (not 600 because bloodletters suck). That is 6 ML3 spells. That's a total of 18 dice to hopefully pass and 36 to at least reliably pass them.
StarTrotter wrote: Implying orks will not begin to spawn extra orks in CC like mushrooms
Also how are you summoning +600 points per turn!? O.o using standard summons (going to use troops) you can get 90 points or 100 points of daemons. That means about 6 casts is 540 points (not 600 because bloodletters suck). That is 6 ML3 spells. That's a total of 18 dice to hopefully pass and 36 to at least reliably pass them.
aparently, getting 6 ml3 spells off with 18 dice, with a 12% chance of success, is a "sure thing"... even without factoring in the detriments of perils and DTW
StarTrotter wrote: Implying orks will not begin to spawn extra orks in CC like mushrooms
Also how are you summoning +600 points per turn!? O.o using standard summons (going to use troops) you can get 90 points or 100 points of daemons. That means about 6 casts is 540 points (not 600 because bloodletters suck). That is 6 ML3 spells. That's a total of 18 dice to hopefully pass and 36 to at least reliably pass them.
aparently, getting 6 ml3 spells off with 18 dice, with a 12% chance of success, is a "sure thing"... even without factoring in the detriments of perils and DTW
Welcome to DakkaDakka, where the sky is constantly falling. (now with 1000% more tears of whiney of nerd rage )
-Summoned units have an "upkeep" paid in psychic dice. The cost is equal to the number of dice the player used to cast the summon (IE generally 6-7 per unit.) These dice are automatically subtracted from the owning player's dice pool in both his own and his opponent's psychic phase, after psychic dice are generated, but before any powers are rolled, as long as that unit still exists in the game. If the owning player must pay more dice than he has, he must instead choose a summoned unit to remove as casualties, and must repeat this until his psychic dice pool would become zero or above. These units are counted as being removed as casualties for the purposes of victory points and tactical objectives.
-Summoned units are removed from the table at the end of the game, before results are tallied. If kill points are being used, any unit that was at half strength (or wounds) or below counts as killed. Thus summoned units cannot claim objectives at the end of the game, nor can they claim linebreaker.
-Summoned units may not summon other units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although having only one summon per turn, or maybe x per certain point value could work too.
-Summoned units have an "upkeep" paid in psychic dice. The cost is equal to the number of dice the player used to cast the summon (IE generally 6-7 per unit.) These dice are automatically subtracted from the owning player's dice pool in both his own and his opponent's psychic phase, after psychic dice are generated, but before any powers are rolled, as long as that unit still exists in the game. If the owning player must pay more dice than he has, he must instead choose a summoned unit to remove as casualties, and must repeat this until his psychic dice pool would become zero or above. These units are counted as being removed as casualties for the purposes of victory points and tactical objectives.
-Summoned units are removed from the table at the end of the game, before results are tallied. If kill points are being used, any unit that was at half strength (or wounds) or below counts as killed. Thus summoned units cannot claim objectives at the end of the game, nor can they claim linebreaker.
-Summoned units may not summon other units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although having only one summon per turn, or maybe x per certain point value could work too.
So in other words, let's make summoning so bad that it becomes a moot point because no one will take it now?
Why don't we just go ahead and ban Daemons, since that's what most of these whine threads are pretty much aiming for?!
Everyone tosses numbers and statistics around like they have data. You don't.
Go play about 200 games so youcan apply the Law of Large numbers and we can look how games are actually turning out. It's not even been a week yet. Go play games and see what actually happens before arguing about how we change the game.
And Orks will be out soon, and maybe they kill every demon in the universe and it's a moot point
I don't believe that would make them "so bad that it becomes useless" at all.
You could still throw upwards of 500-600 points of units you didn't pay for against an enemy in a 2k game. And if any of those die, you have the dice available again.
An army just using a summon here and there will still be able to use it just fine, but it holds off lists from going full on crazy and doubling your army in points by turn 4.
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mikhaila wrote: Everyone tosses numbers and statistics around like they have data. You don't.
If I see a cartoon character running towards a banana peel, I don't need to wait a month to figure out the likely outcome.
It's pretty easy to figure out that an army that gains a 25% points advantage on turn 1, followed by more on subsequent turns, with extremely varied and versatile summons, is going to wreck face.
It's also easy to figure out that someone who outnumbers you 6-1 in psychic dice is going to completely shut down any powers you have.
I don't think capping the number of warp charges is the change we need to make. Moreover, it is far too early to say definitively that something "has" to be done just yet.
My early suggestion is to cap the number of warp charges a psyker can throw to cast powers at their mastery level x2+1. The problem isn't necessarily that armies can have too many charges, it is that they can throw so many dice at powers as to near guarantee both their success and that the opponent will be unable to deny. This is especially exacerbated by Eldar Ghosthelms.
It seems Perils are going to pop up a lot more. The table is a two edge sword, but it is not a fantasy kind of sword. I will be playing and seeing what happens. I can tell that not coming to the battlefield with psykers is going to hurt. But I believe that only a couple of dexes have that issue. We have all heard how CSM and Deamons have been nerfed, now they get a buff and we hear "FOUL". It tells me to take almost everything on this forum with a grain a salt.
I personally think all the changes are spot on. People really need to read, there is so much change and in strange little places. Things like vehicle wrecks on longer dangerous, fixing the crazy "9 regroup move for SMs, leadership test for passengers in Shaken/Stunned vehicles, auto counter-attack, auto split fire, and the list goes on. My favorite is the new fire/hit/wound/save for each weapon type. I think that is really making the game much better and much more enjoyable.
So play some games, CORRECTLY, and report back. Watch out for the new psyker rules and phase, it is not what it seems on paper.
After reading Biomancy, I think you're honestly wasting the potential of the army by throwing every single Mastery Lv from all your Daemon Princes into Malefic...
There is some truly heinous beatstick potential hidden away in Biomancy Princes now!
Experiment 626 wrote: After reading Biomancy, I think you're honestly wasting the potential of the army by throwing every single Mastery Lv from all your Daemon Princes into Malefic...
There is some truly heinous beatstick potential hidden away in Biomancy Princes now!
Of course they also have to wait till T3 for an assault and need to weather a turn of damage. Unless we are going more for some Slaaneshi princes here . Sady I'm a Tzeentch guy at heart so no whip for me! Maybe one to cast tel hopefully for invinceability. Even 12" movement+d6 could work if you make enemies hit you on 6s and only snapshots.
Ravenous D wrote: It's pretty obvious that daemons (and a few others) are beyond ridiculous with the number of Warp Charges they can get so I believe tournaments should agree to cap warp charges at 12 like in fantasy just for overall balance.
Try it out and see how you feel.
You have no idea what you are talking about, and what is your proof?
If you run the numbers, psychic powers are much worse in 7th edition than they were in 6th edition.
Not only that, but the more warp charges you get, the worse they become!
If it gets out of control there is always killpoints secondary mission in tourneys. The rules remain unmolested and everybody finds another reason to be unhappy.
Rather than capping Warp Charges, isn't a more elegant solution simply bumping up the cost of the individual powers (invisibility, summons) that are undercosted? I bet just a +1 WC cost brings them from being broken to being just really good.
Not necessarily. At this point summons are arguably not worth it. Thing is, we won't know until they FAQ things. For all we know it might only be heralds and the non-khorne greater daemons that can summon. Add to that, the spell already costs 3 WC meaning that the spell only becomes relatively reliable at 6 charges. Even a daemonspam army will struggle to handle this likely and the situation only gets worse if you make it 4 WC as it then costs about 8 to even relatively reliably cast the spell. At that point why even bother casting it? Same goes to other spells. If you nerf them too much somebody will just go to the new black until you nerf everything to be worthless (and believe me there are some worthless spells in there). The biggest trap is people think spells are easy to cast. They aren't. They actually became more difficult to cast with higher chances to peril than before. One peril instadeaths even your eternal warrior character, another makes you forget a random spell, and the rest (bar one exception) at the very least harm you. Heck it'll only take 2 perils for a herald to die.
Quientin wrote: If it gets out of control there is always killpoints secondary mission in tourneys. The rules remain unmolested and everybody finds another reason to be unhappy.
Unfortunately, KP's never really worked well as a balancer, they didn't do the job in 5th, and won't solve the issue now. For one, it assumes that you can kill the extra masses of units, which aren't exactly summoned at weakened strength nor are many particularly squishy units. And two, it punishes a whole bunch of other armies and leads to absolutely absurd game conclusions in many instances. KP's are, and always will be, a lazy mechanic that doesn't serve the balance purpose people keep hoping it will. All KP's do is give you stupid game outcomes.
If you wanted to use the old VP system of actual unit value, that might work better, but requires more effort on the part of players to assess the value of the summoned units and the value of what was destroyed.
Experiment 626 wrote: After reading Biomancy, I think you're honestly wasting the potential of the army by throwing every single Mastery Lv from all your Daemon Princes into Malefic...
There is some truly heinous beatstick potential hidden away in Biomancy Princes now!
Of course they also have to wait till T3 for an assault and need to weather a turn of damage. Unless we are going more for some Slaaneshi princes here . Sady I'm a Tzeentch guy at heart so no whip for me! Maybe one to cast tel hopefully for invinceability. Even 12" movement+d6 could work if you make enemies hit you on 6s and only snapshots.
With wings you should be able to get off a T2 assault - just don't take off and stick your 12" movement and use the available cover tactically like we always had too back in 5th & earlier. That's a total of 12" + 12" + 2D6 charge - something juicy should end up in range of that!
I will have to try out a Tzeentch Prince w/Lv3 Biomancy + Eternal Beatstick, Greater reward & Wings...
Just the thought of landing Warpspeed for a total of 5 + 3 + D3 + 1 on the charge makes me giggle! Odds are also pretty solid of having Iron Arm or Endurance to combo with with for added protection. (and S8-10 just for lols!)
Experiment 626 wrote: After reading Biomancy, I think you're honestly wasting the potential of the army by throwing every single Mastery Lv from all your Daemon Princes into Malefic...
There is some truly heinous beatstick potential hidden away in Biomancy Princes now!
Of course they also have to wait till T3 for an assault and need to weather a turn of damage. Unless we are going more for some Slaaneshi princes here . Sady I'm a Tzeentch guy at heart so no whip for me! Maybe one to cast tel hopefully for invinceability. Even 12" movement+d6 could work if you make enemies hit you on 6s and only snapshots.
With wings you should be able to get off a T2 assault - just don't take off and stick your 12" movement and use the available cover tactically like we always had too back in 5th & earlier. That's a total of 12" + 12" + 2D6 charge - something juicy should end up in range of that!
I will have to try out a Tzeentch Prince w/Lv3 Biomancy + Eternal Beatstick, Greater reward & Wings...
Just the thought of landing Warpspeed for a total of 5 + 3 + D3 + 1 on the charge makes me giggle! Odds are also pretty solid of having Iron Arm or Endurance to combo with with for added protection. (and S8-10 just for lols!)
True but it's more the cautious oh sweet gosh my T5 is going to hurt isn't it? Nonetheless maybe it is time to take out my Flaming Chariots of Tzeentch (THEY FINALLY WORK!), screamers, and flamers and cackle as my army just zooms around.
Ravenous D wrote: It's pretty obvious that daemons (and a few others) are beyond ridiculous with the number of Warp Charges they can get so I believe tournaments should agree to cap warp charges at 12 like in fantasy just for overall balance.
Try it out and see how you feel.
You have no idea what you are talking about, and what is your proof?
If you run the numbers, psychic powers are much worse in 7th edition than they were in 6th edition.
Not only that, but the more warp charges you get, the worse they become!
Ask your frontline buddies about how awesome it is to summon 90 daemons in 2 turns.
I do think certain powers, summoning and invisibility are defibitely worth nerfing or adjusting, that being said the new pyshic phase is okay. Denying is tough and specifically tailored pysker armies will dominate those without some pyshic defense.
I think the biggest problem with 7th is the FoC and allies. Its so stupid and unbound means nothinf because if you play straight from the book normal games are so stupid.
Ravenous D wrote: It's pretty obvious that daemons (and a few others) are beyond ridiculous with the number of Warp Charges they can get so I believe tournaments should agree to cap warp charges at 12 like in fantasy just for overall balance.
Try it out and see how you feel.
You have no idea what you are talking about, and what is your proof?
If you run the numbers, psychic powers are much worse in 7th edition than they were in 6th edition.
Not only that, but the more warp charges you get, the worse they become!
Ask your frontline buddies about how awesome it is to summon 90 daemons in 2 turns.
You mean about the game they essentially rigged entirely in favour of the Daemon army, in order to "prove" a pre-determined bias?
How about who was winning that game if there was a tournament time limit? I believe the Imperials were. A daemon army that is summoning that much will play so SLOW it will not finish games. Nor will it move enough in the 2-3 turns you do play to capture anything or kill anything...
gg game over for daemons
Automatically Appended Next Post: Didn't Frankie say it was the longest game of 40k he had ever played?
Ravenous D wrote: It's pretty obvious that daemons (and a few others) are beyond ridiculous with the number of Warp Charges they can get so I believe tournaments should agree to cap warp charges at 12 like in fantasy just for overall balance.
Try it out and see how you feel.
You have no idea what you are talking about, and what is your proof?
If you run the numbers, psychic powers are much worse in 7th edition than they were in 6th edition.
Not only that, but the more warp charges you get, the worse they become!
Ask your frontline buddies about how awesome it is to summon 90 daemons in 2 turns.
You mean the game where the demons had 36 casting dice and were still unable to win against a middle-of-the-road space marine army?
The book came out 4 days ago, can we see how the Tourney scene goes before we make up our minds something is unfair, overpowered or broken. I mean give it 1 month at least... LOL
Ravenous D wrote: It's pretty obvious that daemons (and a few others) are beyond ridiculous with the number of Warp Charges they can get so I believe tournaments should agree to cap warp charges at 12 like in fantasy just for overall balance.
Try it out and see how you feel.
You have no idea what you are talking about, and what is your proof?
If you run the numbers, psychic powers are much worse in 7th edition than they were in 6th edition.
Not only that, but the more warp charges you get, the worse they become!
Ask your frontline buddies about how awesome it is to summon 90 daemons in 2 turns.
You mean the game where the demons had 36 casting dice and were still unable to win against a middle-of-the-road space marine army?
You mean the game where they used the stupidly unbalanced objective cards?
This post should be spilt up into three categories,
One being daemon players
Two being anti daemon players
Third unbiased players.
Maybe more actually discussion would take place. Also shouldnt people be more concerned about invisabilty making seer council even better?
I am still waiting for someone to prove that a large Warp Charge army is overpowered rather than people just being afraid of something that is new.
For those that think the new warp charges are overpowered here is some maths for you.
A Mastery Level 3 Librarian/Psyker
In 6th edition they can cast: 92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
Or
92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 2 power
Or
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
A ML 3 Librarian/Psyker in 7th edition can cast: 3 WC+3.5 WC from the pool=
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
Or
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
4d6 for a 69% Chance to cast a WC 2 power
Or
6d6 for a 65% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
So right away we see that the odds are a lot lower to cast spells in 7th edition than 6th edition.
Everyone is all worried about a lot of warp charges let’s see how they scale up.
Let’s do the math for 4 Casters of ML 3 shall we?
In 6th Edition: They can cast around 10 WC 1 powers on average (assuming LD 10).
7th Edition? They generate 12 Warp Charges+3.5 from the Warp Charge pool for 15.5 so let’s just round up to 16 Warp Charges.
They can use 2 WCs for a 75% chance to cast 8 WC 1 powers, so that means that they will get off 6 powers total on average.
So I will point it out again:
6th edition: 10 WC 1 powers
7th edition: 6 WC 1 powers
It gets even worse the more WC the power is.
Casting a WC 3 power:
6th Edition 92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
7th edition: 85% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 8d6
85% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 8d6
Or
50% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 5d6
50% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 5d6
65% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 6d6
So I will point it out again:
6th edition: 4 WC 3 powers
7th edition: 2 WC 3 powers
Important Notes: #1. It is much easier to perils this edition. If you are chucking around a lot of Warp Charge dice you will end up with a lot of dead psykers.
#2.This is a subtle change that has a huge impact on casting. That is that the WCs to cast powers has gone up! To give you a quick example: In Biomancy, Endurance went from WC 1 to WC 2. In Divination, Prescience and Misfortune went from WC 1 to WC 2, etc.
#3. If you are playing against an army that is also high in Warp Charges they will now be able to block your blessings and other powers much easier so they are going to be less effective.
Does anyone have any proof or any kind of evidence that high WC armies are any good?
Blackmoor wrote: I am still waiting for someone to prove that a large Warp Charge army is overpowered rather than people just being afraid of something that is new.
For those that think the new warp charges are overpowered here is some maths for you.
A Mastery Level 3 Librarian/Psyker
In 6th edition they can cast: 92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
Or
92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 2 power
Or
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
A ML 3 Librarian/Psyker in 7th edition can cast: 3 WC+3.5 WC from the pool=
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
Or
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
4d6 for a 69% Chance to cast a WC 2 power
Or
6d6 for a 65% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
So right away we see that the odds are a lot lower to cast spells in 7th edition than 6th edition.
Everyone is all worried about a lot of warp charges let’s see how they scale up.
Let’s do the math for 4 Casters of ML 3 shall we?
In 6th Edition: They can cast around 10 WC 1 powers on average (assuming LD 10).
7th Edition? They generate 12 Warp Charges+3.5 from the Warp Charge pool for 15.5 so let’s just round up to 16 Warp Charges.
They can use 2 WCs for a 75% chance to cast 8 WC 1 powers, so that means that they will get off 6 powers total on average.
So I will point it out again:
6th edition: 10 WC 1 powers
7th edition: 6 WC 1 powers
It gets even worse the more WC the power is.
Casting a WC 3 power:
6th Edition 92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
7th edition: 85% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 8d6
85% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 8d6
Or
50% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 5d6
50% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 5d6
65% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 6d6
So I will point it out again:
6th edition: 4 WC 3 powers
7th edition: 2 WC 3 powers
Important Notes: #1. It is much easier to perils this edition. If you are chucking around a lot of Warp Charge dice you will end up with a lot of dead psykers.
#2.This is a subtle change that has a huge impact on casting. That is that the WCs to cast powers has gone up! To give you a quick example: In Biomancy, Endurance went from WC 1 to WC 2. In Divination, Prescience and Misfortune went from WC 1 to WC 2, etc.
#3. If you are playing against an army that is also high in Warp Charges they will now be able to block your blessings and other powers much easier so they are going to be less effective.
Does anyone have any proof or any kind of evidence that high WC armies are any good?
Well they have the battle report where the guy tied with 4000 points of daemons against 2k of gunline marines with a large amount of LOS blocking terrain.
I am in the wait and see camp, we need to give 7th edition a chance before we start hitting stuff with the nerf stick.
I agree with Blackmoor without playtesting it sounds like people are afraid of new stuff. We should not base our opinion on battle reports that could be specifically chosen out of several to cause fear to force you to like their tournament rulings. How can we fix something we truly don't understand? I have seen two battle reports one complains about the new psychic phase the other complains about tactical objectives. I mean can we celebrate the death of Ovesastar?
Blackmoor wrote: I am still waiting for someone to prove that a large Warp Charge army is overpowered rather than people just being afraid of something that is new.
For those that think the new warp charges are overpowered here is some maths for you.
A Mastery Level 3 Librarian/Psyker
In 6th edition they can cast: 92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
Or
92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 2 power
Or
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
A ML 3 Librarian/Psyker in 7th edition can cast: 3 WC+3.5 WC from the pool=
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
Or
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
4d6 for a 69% Chance to cast a WC 2 power
Or
6d6 for a 65% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
So right away we see that the odds are a lot lower to cast spells in 7th edition than 6th edition.
Everyone is all worried about a lot of warp charges let’s see how they scale up.
Let’s do the math for 4 Casters of ML 3 shall we?
In 6th Edition: They can cast around 10 WC 1 powers on average (assuming LD 10).
7th Edition? They generate 12 Warp Charges+3.5 from the Warp Charge pool for 15.5 so let’s just round up to 16 Warp Charges.
They can use 2 WCs for a 75% chance to cast 8 WC 1 powers, so that means that they will get off 6 powers total on average.
So I will point it out again:
6th edition: 10 WC 1 powers
7th edition: 6 WC 1 powers
It gets even worse the more WC the power is.
Casting a WC 3 power:
6th Edition 92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
7th edition: 85% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 8d6
85% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 8d6
Or
50% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 5d6
50% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 5d6
65% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 6d6
So I will point it out again:
6th edition: 4 WC 3 powers
7th edition: 2 WC 3 powers
Important Notes: #1. It is much easier to perils this edition. If you are chucking around a lot of Warp Charge dice you will end up with a lot of dead psykers.
#2.This is a subtle change that has a huge impact on casting. That is that the WCs to cast powers has gone up! To give you a quick example: In Biomancy, Endurance went from WC 1 to WC 2. In Divination, Prescience and Misfortune went from WC 1 to WC 2, etc.
#3. If you are playing against an army that is also high in Warp Charges they will now be able to block your blessings and other powers much easier so they are going to be less effective.
Does anyone have any proof or any kind of evidence that high WC armies are any good?
Thanks to Blackmoor for throwing some reason around, I was beggining to think the whole forum was crazy.
Powers are harder to cast and easier to stop this edition.
You may meet an opponent that can completley shut down your Psychic phase... just like Space Wolves and Eldar did in previous editions.
People need to test this stuff before jumping to conclusions.The silly Deamons vs Imperials report on frontline demonstrated this perfectly. They decided in advance that they had broken the game and were whooping like lunatics while playing, but in the end the report didnt justify that conclusion.
While I largely agree, I think you are wrong on one point there.
Powers are harder to stop in most cases. For non-targeted/targeted non-buffed rolls you need to throw 3 times as many dice to deny reliably as your opponent did to cast. There are no more anti-psychic shutdowns like space wolves had for the last 2 editions etc.
So it can be easier to shut down powers if you are the guy running roughshod over the psychic phases (the daemon army with 30 warp charges, against a single psyker.), and you might be able to shut down a single important power with a ton of dice, or luck. But in reality I don't expect much to get shut down ever.
More likely your opponent will fail to cast, or just not cast as much as they did previously, but what they do get off is unlikely to be stopped.
Blackmoor wrote: I am still waiting for someone to prove that a large Warp Charge army is overpowered rather than people just being afraid of something that is new.
For those that think the new warp charges are overpowered here is some maths for you.
A Mastery Level 3 Librarian/Psyker
In 6th edition they can cast: 92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
Or
92% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 2 power
Or
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
A ML 3 Librarian/Psyker in 7th edition can cast: 3 WC+3.5 WC from the pool=
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
Or
2d6 for a 75% Chance to cast a WC 1 power
4d6 for a 69% Chance to cast a WC 2 power
Or
6d6 for a 65% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
So right away we see that the odds are a lot lower to cast spells in 7th edition than 6th edition.
Everyone is all worried about a lot of warp charges let’s see how they scale up.
Let’s do the math for 4 Casters of ML 3 shall we?
In 6th Edition: They can cast around 10 WC 1 powers on average (assuming LD 10).
7th Edition? They generate 12 Warp Charges+3.5 from the Warp Charge pool for 15.5 so let’s just round up to 16 Warp Charges.
They can use 2 WCs for a 75% chance to cast 8 WC 1 powers, so that means that they will get off 6 powers total on average.
So I will point it out again:
6th edition: 10 WC 1 powers
7th edition: 6 WC 1 powers
It gets even worse the more WC the power is.
Casting a WC 3 power:
6th Edition 92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
92% Chance to cast a WC 3 power
7th edition: 85% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 8d6
85% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 8d6
Or
50% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 5d6
50% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 5d6
65% Chance to cast a WC 3 power with 6d6
So I will point it out again:
6th edition: 4 WC 3 powers
7th edition: 2 WC 3 powers
Important Notes: #1. It is much easier to perils this edition. If you are chucking around a lot of Warp Charge dice you will end up with a lot of dead psykers.
#2.This is a subtle change that has a huge impact on casting. That is that the WCs to cast powers has gone up! To give you a quick example: In Biomancy, Endurance went from WC 1 to WC 2. In Divination, Prescience and Misfortune went from WC 1 to WC 2, etc.
#3. If you are playing against an army that is also high in Warp Charges they will now be able to block your blessings and other powers much easier so they are going to be less effective.
Does anyone have any proof or any kind of evidence that high WC armies are any good?
I wish I could exalt this more than once!
Me too.
I said this to someone earlier.
for example, when a codex first comes out, does the best list get used stright away?, the WS spam with WK's was pretty obvious from the eldar dex but that had its hay day quite early then people adapted and it went away. I cant see 7th ed being any different in that it takes people time to adjust and relise what it is all about
@Breng77, Agreed. I was generalising a bit there and showing my experience bias. As an Eldar player im not used to people being able to stop my blessings.
Breng77 wrote: While I largely agree, I think you are wrong on one point there.
Powers are harder to stop in most cases. For non-targeted/targeted non-buffed rolls you need to throw 3 times as many dice to deny reliably as your opponent did to cast. There are no more anti-psychic shutdowns like space wolves had for the last 2 editions etc.
So it can be easier to shut down powers if you are the guy running roughshod over the psychic phases (the daemon army with 30 warp charges, against a single psyker.), and you might be able to shut down a single important power with a ton of dice, or luck. But in reality I don't expect much to get shut down ever.
More likely your opponent will fail to cast, or just not cast as much as they did previously, but what they do get off is unlikely to be stopped.
you are wrong, your point that its "hard" to stop non targeted powers is the exact reverse of what you say it is...
6th ed, we had 0% chance to stop non targeted powers,
7th ed, we have X% chance to stop them, with X being greater then 0, and we get to choose where we throw all our dispel dice.
correct, but targeted powers are now more difficult to deny, so it is no a straight buff. Furthermore, armies like Space Wolves had a much better chance to deny anything that what is currently available.
I would pay good money to see Blackmoor whooping it up like the frontline guys spouting how he broke the world!!!
the demon summoning lists will be a trick pony list and you may face one and they summon 4000 points of demons but most likely they won't. The list will be too variable and that will scare away good players except for Bill. He will win more events with his demons because he will poop out the right demons at the right time.
Breng77 wrote: correct, but targeted powers are now more difficult to deny, so it is no a straight buff. Furthermore, armies like Space Wolves had a much better chance to deny anything that what is currently available.
again, totally wrong, targeted powers are now much EASIER to deny in one respect, and slightly less eay in another. however, the 2nd part where its harder to deny multi charge powers, is more then off set by how much harder it is to cast those powers. losing 25%+ of your chance to actually cast a power, as well as having a perils chance of 20% or higher, more then makes up for you having to roll two or three 6's to deny that power.
wolves will deny most targeted powers on a 3-4+ now... again, the simple fact that powers got harder to cast means you need to deny much much less in the first place, which is a de facto buff to denial much greater then the "nerf" you claim was done to denial.
except that is only true if we have near the same number of warp charges, or I am trying to squeak things through on minimal dice. If I have a lot more dice than you the chance of you denying my powers is minimal if I want them to go through. Sure I might perils more often in that case, but more often than not you will be statistically worse than previously against targeted powers. Furthermore most wolf squads are still only denying on a 6+ because no hood to spread the rune priests deny so, it is only 4+ if I target his squad with something.
Also making things harder to cast is not a buff to denying them. You are no better at stopping them from happening, I'm just worse at making them happen.
Also making things harder to cast is not a buff to denying them. You are no better at stopping them from happening, I'm just worse at making them happen.
the fact that I get off ~1/2 as many powers means you need to deny 1/2 as much... thats a "buff" to the side on the recieving end of powers.
perils will kill their caster, and possibly their unit now... dont just handwaive that away... going from 5% perils in 6th to 20%+ is HUGE
Also making things harder to cast is not a buff to denying them. You are no better at stopping them from happening, I'm just worse at making them happen.
the fact that I get off ~1/2 as many powers means you need to deny 1/2 as much... thats a "buff" to the side on the recieving end of powers.
perils will kill their caster, and possibly their unit now... dont just handwaive that away... going from 5% perils in 6th to 20%+ is HUGE
While I am on the wait and see side of things your statements are not quite correct. I would also argue that denying has gotten significantly worse in many ways. Before you ALWAYS got to deny powers cast on you, now if you run out of dice, or are low on dice you dont get that opportunity. In addition they can make it MUCH harder to get a deny off, and in reality they didnt need a combination of three or four spells. They just need one and it will cripple a unit/swing a game.
In addition the caster units that are a major problem are the ones that ignore perils for the most part. Brotherhood of psykers as well as eldar with ghost helms they get non of the risks that come with being able to completely overpower their opponents. At this point it is not a numbers game as much as a sheer overwhelming force. IF they just need two powers to go off that turn to win the game, they will make it happen. 10 dice at invis, and 10 dice at fortune. No one, not even other psyker armies are going to have the ability to stop either reliably. You would on average need 30 dispel dice to stop even one of them. And most armies will still have 5-10 dice left to do other things after this. THAT is where the problem lies.
I guess if being able to get one power off for sure (even if you perils and wipe a guy/unit members doing it) is OP to you then yeah... which can turn a game if you really need the power, or can mean jack squat if I just go "meh, that units invisible, ill shoot the other unit."
and I have already acknowledged that its harder to deny multi dice powers, but its easier to get single dice ones, even if you do not always get the chance, I cant remember the last time in 6th when I had to make more then 2 DTW rolls, now with even LESS powers being cast that target me, I dont see why that # would be past 6 rolls a turn.
So sideways trade IMO, esp with multi dice powers peril chance increasing
I dont think actually having a guaranteed power or two going off and you periling all the time is such a big deal compared to when it was every power going off 90% of the time and a 0% chance to deny it. (or 1/6 chance if it targeted you) ESP since less powers means you likely get more then one dice to throw at a power of your choosing now, so against WC1 powers the deny chance went up since you get more then one die.
Either way, we all need to play some games and see how many psykers pop their own skulls. I for one will laught the first time one explodes not only himself, but his whole unit.
TBH I don't think taking a bunch of Horrors to summon more horrors is the best strategy, they have a mediocre save, are t(3) and if you are spending their WC to summon more horrors, they are not shooting.
Not sure too many people fear horrors in assault...
as to the comments about certain armies (eldar) throwing a bunch of dice and ignoring perils to get a power off they needed, last edition(6th) did you really see eldar not getting powers off they needed? I don't see a change really, other than the other ancillary powers that they don't need as much will not go off as often.
blaktoof wrote: TBH I don't think taking a bunch of Horrors to summon more horrors is the best strategy, they have a mediocre save, are t(3) and if you are spending their WC to summon more horrors, they are not shooting.
Not sure too many people fear horrors in assault...
as to the comments about certain armies (eldar) throwing a bunch of dice and ignoring perils to get a power off they needed, last edition(6th) did you really see eldar not getting powers off they needed? I don't see a change really, other than the other ancillary powers that they don't need as much will not go off as often.
Oddly enough if you ban/change invis I dont see a problem with anything else.
If people are really twisting the knickers in a knot over Summoning being this godly, instant "I-Win-lolz!' button, then instead of capping Warp Charges or banning/nerfing Malefic to the point of being useless, how about:
"A Psyker or Bortherhood of Psykers unit may use anywhere from 1-6 dice on their casting attempt(s)."
No chucking a billion dice to just faceroll your opponent for that game-winning power, and summoning is now at best a little over 50/50 success rate.
And without Fantasy's IF mechanic, there's no aiming for boxcars to get the automatic success that can't be countered.
Without the ability to 7-8+ dice these spells for a guaranteed 30-40 added Horrors for the added WC generation, you're far less assured of infinitely multiplying your forces for the mythical "T3/T4 dozen Herald ----> Greater" shenanigans.
"A Psyker or Bortherhood of Psykers unit may use anywhere from 1-6 dice on their casting attempt(s)."
Aye, it's one of the suggestions we're going to talk about this weekend. It has been done in WHFB as well where overpowered disciplines were not allowed to use the maximum amount of PD possible and it worked incredibly well. Might do the same for summoning.
Another suggestion is that your enemy gets to dispel summons in every subsequent turn where he only has to score as many successes as the power has warp charges. Basically:
1. You roll for summoning, score 5 successes. Enemy can only get 1 6, thus you get to summon.
2. Next turn, the enemy uses some of his DD to attempt to dispel the power with Warp Charge 2. He manages to get 2 6s and therefore, the unit is immediately disspelled. If in melee, the other side immediately gets to consolidate.
Next suggestion is that each Psyker can only use his psyker level + X PD per turn or, similarily, that every caster can use the d6 PD, but cannot use PD created by himself. This would also nerf other casters though.
My main issue is the Warp Charge pool to which EVERY psyker in an army has access. Rather than capping any power dice at a set number, how about letting units have access only to the Warp Charges they generate plus any from the additional D6?
That would make it dar too difficult for most units to cast successfully. It is super hard to cast powers I. He current system limiting it that way makes it so lower level psykers get hurt quite a bit, it also makes deny rolls a lot more powerful. It is also a penalty to armies that take a lot of psykers because the d6 does not scale. I think for a system like that to work each psyker would need to generate separately like level + d3 warp charges or something. As it stands taking more psykers devalues the d6 roll, but at least they share charges so that there is some benefit to having multiples.
"A Psyker or Bortherhood of Psykers unit may use anywhere from 1-6 dice on their casting attempt(s)."
Aye, it's one of the suggestions we're going to talk about this weekend. It has been done in WHFB as well where overpowered disciplines were not allowed to use the maximum amount of PD possible and it worked incredibly well. Might do the same for summoning.
Limiting the WC3 summoning powers to 5 or less dice pretty much makes them near-pointless, outside of the Herald summoning power.
5 dice is essentially a strait-up 50/50 shot at making your test, and when you still have access to lores like Divination, Biomancy & Telepathy, you basically move Malefic to the level of Pyromancy in terms of it's overall crappiness...
The idea isn't to nerf it to the point of making it useless, but rather to make the tactic of mass WC farming to spam it unreliable, yet still a playable option. 50%-60% odds of successfully casting the power, with a 20-26% chance of Perils is nothing to actively build an entire game plan around, but it's still viable for getting a unit or two when you really need it.
In Fantasy for example, people only go hog wild on 6-dicing the mega spells because they're both potentially game-winning AND have a roughly 26% chance of being completely unstoppable.
Without an IF mechanic, the reward isn't so obvious, especially when things like summoning a Greater Daemon automatically kill the caster outright! (or else then entire unit if a Brotherhood of Psykers!)
Sigvatr wrote: Another suggestion is that your enemy gets to dispel summons in every subsequent turn where he only has to score as many successes as the power has warp charges. Basically:
1. You roll for summoning, score 5 successes. Enemy can only get 1 6, thus you get to summon.
2. Next turn, the enemy uses some of his DD to attempt to dispel the power with Warp Charge 2. He manages to get 2 6s and therefore, the unit is immediately disspelled. If in melee, the other side immediately gets to consolidate.
Next suggestion is that each Psyker can only use his psyker level + X PD per turn or, similarily, that every caster can use the d6 PD, but cannot use PD created by himself. This would also nerf other casters though.
Again, I think that's nerfing summoning too harshly, especially the Greater Daemon summoning power! You're giving up typically 100+ pts in the caster, (and if it's a DP or Greater, you can actually lose pts through Possession!), so the 'price' has already been paid by the casting player in that regard.
Making it essentially a 40k equivalent of a Remains in Play spell just makes it a weak ability, as the opponent will likely just wait until the next turn and chuck a handful of dice and require only 3, (or even just 1 in the case of the Herald power!), and snuff your summoned unit out. Meanwhile their shooting & assault phase gets aimed at the summoners themselves!
At the very least it should be that the opposing player must use their own power dice, during their own Psychic phase, just like in Fantasy where you choose to perhaps forego your own offensive castings and remove that RiP spell(s)!
I like the folks defending the current nonsense. You can no enough about a game to smell bull crap. I have yet to see a battle report involving the new clown car do poorly. The only reason they would have remotely lost is because of the terrible new mission design of "person with the best first hand wins!" mode.
I say just limit the power dice thrown at any given spell. 6 max. Balances out the WC3 spells well, gives leeway for WC2, and WC1 doesn't care.
TheKbob wrote: I like the folks defending the current nonsense. You can no enough about a game to smell bull crap. I have yet to see a battle report involving the new clown car do poorly. The only reason they would have remotely lost is because of the terrible new mission design of "person with the best first hand wins!" mode.
I say just limit the power dice thrown at any given spell. 6 max. Balances out the WC3 spells well, gives leeway for WC2, and WC1 doesn't care.
That should fix most of the problems.
I think that daemons MIGHT be bad/overpowered... but we're not even a full week into the new edition. I haven't seen a tournament game with them. I haven't seen any tournament level armies from other forces yet. It generally takes a few months for the real power builds to be identified, and often people's initial fears of power end up being completely misplaced.
Personally I think objective secured drop pods/rhinos is a much bigger issue than daemon factory in tournament settings, yet people are freaking out about the daemons only. Daemons may be tempered by the revitalised Grey Knights: sure they do alright vs an army with 2-3 mastery levels, but when the enemy has enough dice to dispel a crucial summon things get a lot more hairy.
Making it essentially a 40k equivalent of a Remains in Play spell just makes it a weak ability, as the opponent will likely just wait until the next turn and chuck a handful of dice and require only 3, (or even just 1 in the case of the Herald power!), and snuff your summoned unit out. Meanwhile their shooting & assault phase gets aimed at the summoners themselves!
At the very least it should be that the opposing player must use their own power dice, during their own Psychic phase, just like in Fantasy where you choose to perhaps forego your own offensive castings and remove that RiP spell(s)!
That was bad wording on my part, I was supposed to phrase it like you did and make it work like in WHFB and their RiP spells where you had to use your own PD to get a chance to dispel. The point is that even if he manages to dispel the summon, he still is at an disadvantage in his own psychic phase, even if he fails the dispel attempt.
In regards to the IF comparison: IF in WHFB exists because your PD pool is capped. Due to GW's absolute trash rules, you can easily get 25+ PD with certain armies and throwing 10 dice at once means the same as casting with IF while almost automatically suffering Perils.
The entire summon thing is a terrible thing to have. It absolutely needs to be rebalanced and it's going to take a lot of time to find a good way to do so. Right now, one day before the first rules council, we are more likely to ban the entire discipline until we found a proper solution. There are other pressing matters that affect all armies and if we got those fixed or worked out, we might get to summoning. Or the other way around. Depends on the others.
So apparently ghost helm only negates the wound, not all the other effects of a perils can someone confirm this form me? if so than it makes the eldar seer council a lot less scary.
TheKbob wrote: I like the folks defending the current nonsense. You can no enough about a game to smell bull crap. I have yet to see a battle report involving the new clown car do poorly. The only reason they would have remotely lost is because of the terrible new mission design of "person with the best first hand wins!" mode.
I say just limit the power dice thrown at any given spell. 6 max. Balances out the WC3 spells well, gives leeway for WC2, and WC1 doesn't care.
That should fix most of the problems.
You do realize this fixes almost nothing right. If I generate say 36 warp charges (to keep the math simple). 6 Castings throwing 6 dice at them net me 4 successful casts (3.9) on average (so summoning 40 new daemon models or whatever). If I up the dice to say 7 now I have 5 castings with 7 dice, which still on average only nets me 4 (actually a little less 3.8) if I throw 8 dice I get only 4 casts (and one with 4 dice if I want), those four casts net me about 3.4 successes, and the extra 1 on 4 dice another .31 so 3.7 casts. Limiting it to 5 dice gets 3.5 successes (with one warp charge left over), allowing 9 dice only gets 3.6 successful casts on average.
Now this assumes you have multiples of the same power to cast, but in a spam summoning build you likely will, but assuming you have enough multiples casting with 6 dice is actually the optimal cast for a WC 3 power.
What if you simply required the denial attempt to match the spell level independent of the number of successes. Still much easier to cast than block, still makes more psychic models = better psychic army, much more elegant than random numeric caps or power nerfs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Biggest problem really is that denial is pointless. Requiring an equal number of 6s to 4s is awful waffle. So those who are summoning with brotherhood or ignoring perils with ghost helms concentrate dice from psychic spam on models or units that don't care about consequences in order to guarantee extremely good powers.
Make denial based on the spell's target number and you solve 90% of the concerns in terms of how the meta can safely build. You can't build your entire army around fortune/invisible, for instance, if a psychic defense army can chuck twelve dice at one of them needing "only" 2 6s. The odds still heavily favor casting over blocking, but you effectively cap warp charge more elegantly and effectively without nerfing the psychic phase or psychic heavy armies in the process.
To be fair that was what I was hoping the actual rule was before I read the rulebook. Made sense to me. Another halfway that I discussed with Target was subtracting 6's from dispel from the successful 4's and then seeing if there were still enough successes. Both options have some merit along with the 5+ maximum deny if you get any of the bonuses metioned in the rulebook or FAQ's.
Any of those 3 options is far, far, far better than a cap on warp charges.
Hulksmash wrote: To be fair that was what I was hoping the actual rule was before I read the rulebook. Made sense to me. Another halfway that I discussed with Target was subtracting 6's from dispel from the successful 4's and then seeing if there were still enough successes. Both options have some merit along with the 5+ maximum deny if you get any of the bonuses metioned in the rulebook or FAQ's.
Any of those 3 options is far, far, far better than a cap on warp charges.
My problem with the subtract is that it's still unrealistic, ie I have fortune, invisible. I have 26+d6 warp charges, and roll a 2. I throw 14 @ each, netting let's say perils on both and the odds, 7 total successes each. Discard one charge each to ignore perils, netting 6 successes. An opponent needs to roll 30 dice at each on the odds of denying them down to a 1. Might as well not bother, because the whole point of this is avoiding a situation where you feel you'll get Psyker boned if you don't have 30+ warp charge.
Allowing bonuses to DTW vs Summon/Bless is similar OK but still capable of being dice spammed.
Feels very unintended for the whole point of having dozens of psykers to just be letting a random horror summon a bloodthirster or allowing farseers to throw 15 dice riskfree.
Either way is better than a cap, but starting to feel more strongly about simplicity and elegance with DTW the target number as the simple and effective possible rule change.
Sigvatr wrote: Honestly, they should have simply gone full WHFB magic system. It works and it would have been SO MUCH easier for everyone.
Now we're stuck with some sort of hybrid that's all over the place.
Totally disagree, fantasy is such a different game where movement and WS means a lot more to it then 40k, not to mention the game ending spells. If we didnt have a limit in fantasy i'd chuck 6 dice at misasma to reduce your intative, then purple sun you off the board. 40k does not have that. Nor do we have irrestiable or dispel scrolls.
There is not one offensive spell in 40k that is anywhere like a few of the number 6's, even the other spells (fireball, thunderbolt, infernal gateway etc etc) are so much more powerful then 40k.
I dont personally think its an issue of how many WC you get. I think its an issue of the powers you can abuse with it! Making free guys is just dumb! We need to fix those powers more than the number of dice.
MVBrandt wrote: What if you simply required the denial attempt to match the spell level independent of the number of successes. Still much easier to cast than block, still makes more psychic models = better psychic army, much more elegant than random numeric caps or power nerfs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Biggest problem really is that denial is pointless. Requiring an equal number of 6s to 4s is awful waffle. So those who are summoning with brotherhood or ignoring perils with ghost helms concentrate dice from psychic spam on models or units that don't care about consequences in order to guarantee extremely good powers.
Make denial based on the spell's target number and you solve 90% of the concerns in terms of how the meta can safely build. You can't build your entire army around fortune/invisible, for instance, if a psychic defense army can chuck twelve dice at one of them needing "only" 2 6s. The odds still heavily favor casting over blocking, but you effectively cap warp charge more elegantly and effectively without nerfing the psychic phase or psychic heavy armies in the process.
The issue with this as discussed elsewhere is it makes having multiples of the same power necessary, and makes WC 1 powers really easy to deny with no way to make them better. As such it increases the relative strength of primaris powers. Its not bad but it encourages spending way more dice on spell because you cannot afford to fail a crucial spell, if your opponent has enough dice to reliably deny it.
That said looking at the math I guess it is not too horrible (6 dice at a ML 1 power is about 66.5% to deny the power.).
I think the largest issue at that point I have is how much it hurts armies that use psychic powers as shooting. Especially a majority of shooting, but that was an issue last edition as well.
Sigvatr wrote: Honestly, they should have simply gone full WHFB magic system. It works and it would have been SO MUCH easier for everyone.
Now we're stuck with some sort of hybrid that's all over the place.
Totally disagree, fantasy is such a different game where movement and WS means a lot more to it then 40k, not to mention the game ending spells. If we didnt have a limit in fantasy i'd chuck 6 dice at misasma to reduce your intative, then purple sun you off the board. 40k does not have that. Nor do we have irrestiable or dispel scrolls.
There is not one offensive spell in 40k that is anywhere like a few of the number 6's, even the other spells (fireball, thunderbolt, infernal gateway etc etc) are so much more powerful then 40k.
It is frankly not a comparable system.
I was talking of the underlying system, not the spells related to it.
Maybe I'm biased as a Daemon player myself, but this yet against seems like just another "let's kick Daemon players in the nads again, because they're Daemon players and they don't deserve nice toys!"
I seem to recall back in 5th, when GK's could make it 100% impossible for us to even put a single model on the table, no one gave a rat's fart and just told us to, "suck it up because no one will play 60 strikes + 30 interceptors dumb***!"
Not even a whisper was spared for how complete awful a match-up it was, nor any mention of comp to help us out despite GK's being literally everywhere in events.
Then we got the frankly stupid WD rules that combined the best of both the 5th & 6th ed codices for three months, and the internet threw a massive tantrum and everyone called for Daemons to be nerfed into the ground because "we just broke the game."
Now we get a shiny toy in Malefic, and because of the potential for abuse, which only becomes heinously stupid if you allow massive proxying instead of simply enforcing the actual rules for said powers, suddenly we're the single worst thing to ever happen to 40k... again.
Sorry, but, suck it up buttercup!
Yes, we can summon, and some people may even have the 100-200+ models or 24+ Heralds/Greater Daemons to abuse it! (most however, won't - so if you allow 100+ proxies, than it's not GW's fault!)
There's plenty of tactics to get at the root of the problem, namely things like Drop Pods, Bikers, Termiecide w/Flamers, any barrage weapons, fast armies like Eldar/Dark Eldar, horde Orks, IG gunlines, Tau and their sheer amount of Ignores Cover shenanigans, etc...
So maybe Sisters are really screwed, but then we all know GW hates Sisters and won't support them - Ever!
Right now all this whinging about 'whaaaaa DoC broke 7th, whaaaaaa!' is frankly getting tiresome. We've taken it up the arse from everyone else, especially Grey Knights, so now it's our turn to have a fun toy that people can fear!
- Sincerely, a peeved-off Tzeentch player who's apparently TFG because "you're Daemons"
Experiment 626 wrote: Maybe I'm biased as a Daemon player myself, but this yet against seems like just another "let's kick Daemon players in the nads again, because they're Daemon players and they don't deserve nice toys!"
I seem to recall back in 5th, when GK's could make it 100% impossible for us to even put a single model on the table, no one gave a rat's fart and just told us to, "suck it up because no one will play 60 strikes + 30 interceptors dumb***!"
Not even a whisper was spared for how complete awful a match-up it was, nor any mention of comp to help us out despite GK's being literally everywhere in events.
Then we got the frankly stupid WD rules that combined the best of both the 5th & 6th ed codices for three months, and the internet threw a massive tantrum and everyone called for Daemons to be nerfed into the ground because "we just broke the game."
Now we get a shiny toy in Malefic, and because of the potential for abuse, which only becomes heinously stupid if you allow massive proxying instead of simply enforcing the actual rules for said powers, suddenly we're the single worst thing to ever happen to 40k... again.
Sorry, but, suck it up buttercup!
Yes, we can summon, and some people may even have the 100-200+ models or 24+ Heralds/Greater Daemons to abuse it! (most however, won't - so if you allow 100+ proxies, than it's not GW's fault!)
There's plenty of tactics to get at the root of the problem, namely things like Drop Pods, Bikers, Termiecide w/Flamers, any barrage weapons, fast armies like Eldar/Dark Eldar, horde Orks, IG gunlines, Tau and their sheer amount of Ignores Cover shenanigans, etc...
So maybe Sisters are really screwed, but then we all know GW hates Sisters and won't support them - Ever!
Right now all this whinging about 'whaaaaa DoC broke 7th, whaaaaaa!' is frankly getting tiresome. We've taken it up the arse from everyone else, especially Grey Knights, so now it's our turn to have a fun toy that people can fear!
- Sincerely, a peeved-off Tzeentch player who's apparently TFG because "you're Daemons"
Or heavy forbid you are required to invest in.....ASSAULT UNITS. Dear god the horror......Seriously any sort of mobile army I am not seeing a significant problem right now.
Elric Greywolf wrote:
Fateweaver, (who generates 8WC in 7e)
.
Wrong. He generates 4. Read his rules and stop spreading your lack of rules to every daemon thread.
Ravenous D wrote:It's pretty obvious that daemons (and a few others) are beyond ridiculous with the number of Warp Charges they can get so I believe tournaments should agree to cap warp charges at 12 like in fantasy just for overall balance.
Try it out and see how you feel.
Noone did this in Fantasy, If your whiny gaming group did great.
jy2 wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote: I found that most of my pskyers where useless if I wanted to cast more powers even w/o a cap. But I need them for the WC
There will always be that discrepency if you bring a psychic-lite army.
Like if you run Tau against orks. Since Tau will outshoot orks like 1000 to 1, why don't we cap the number of shots Tau can take to 20 per turn then?
Agreed. We would need to set limits on every army and their strengths.
Sigvatr wrote: This isn't against DoC in general because of them being DoC.
Summoning is overpowered by a vast amount and therefore needs to be toned down / addressed on a comp level.
To be honest I can understand the anger of Experiment. Whenever we had a 100% chance of being tabled by turn 1, nobody cared, not even trying to comp to avoid that happening and it very much did occur with GK being as big as they were. Then, they just suddenly begin to complain with DoC being possibly OP.
I do agree that some limits need to come out at the least so that daemons can't force multiply summonings (I guess a good restriction would be daemons summoned can't summon more. It's more built so slow armies don't get hurt)
Oh, I can fully understand her (her...iirc?) too. I started Necrons in 3rd and suffered through most of 5th. Felt going being good again. Never used flyers though...I was one of the like, idk, 5% that used to play for fluff
On the other hand, I am aiming, with the other guys, to create a competitive balance and summoning currently poses a high-priority problem.
Sigvatr wrote: Oh, I can fully understand her (her...iirc?) too. I started Necrons in 3rd and suffered through most of 5th. Felt going being good again. Never used flyers though...I was one of the like, idk, 5% that used to play for fluff
On the other hand, I am aiming, with the other guys, to create a competitive balance and summoning currently poses a high-priority problem.
Oh no, I understand where you are coming from. Honestly, I wish they'd just kept psykers to how they used to be. It'd make this... mess far easier but I doubt anybody wants to have to deal with trying to drag those back out
At this point, the biggest problems come down to denial where it takes so many dice to deny with certain armies being basically doomed (a few psykers means a psyker heavy army will cancel their spells and psykerless armies largely won't be able to do anything besides d6 measly deny rolls). The question becomes, how do we fix things? Overall, Psykers got nerfed drastically with a more risky spell phase and less spells casted per turn. At the same time, a cap will eradicate any will want to use Pink Horrors the way they were supposed to. The biggest concerns come down upon GK who lost much but also gained quite a bit and Chaos Daemons that can theoretically break the game by spawning. The specifics are summoning, brothers not usually suffering as much from perils, and denial rolls. How much, we still don't quite know yet. It seems to be a rock paper scissor list. Against a fast army, it likely will fail. The problem comes to slower armies though making them even less likely to appear. That's why I recommended summoned monsters cannot roll on Malefic personally because daemons summoning daemons to make a daemon factory that can exponentially grow and have a counter to every situation. It still makes it possible, but not nearly as likely to just go wild overtime. As per denials, that's another kettle. Give enemies to many denials and it makes the already sucky witchfire downright useless, do nothing and you give a disparity where armies with only a small few psykers can't pass any spells whilst psyker heavy armies can cast their spells with little to no difficulty.
So then, I must ask. What 2++ saves do we have out in the game? I vaguely remember a staff for GK giving that in CC and, of course, the 4++ spell + the grimoire but what else is there like that?
Since no one wants to talk soft score comp (which would solve every major gripe people are having with the new edition), I would like to throw my lot in with Exp626. I played GKs and I thought warp quake was beyond stupid.
But my earlier experience was more about the love showered on the Cheese Wolves. Jaws of the Broken Wolf made several of my and my wife's armies completely unplayable when that book hit. Ork Power Claw nob? Suck it noob! Tyranid MC list? Smoke a fat one! Necrons? Lets just snipe that orb guy out of there with my 2 casts of Jaws. And if you do make it into combat with anything, my underpriced Grey Hunters will still outfight you, after shooting you to ribbons on the way in. And then GK came out and made multiwound model armies irrelevant on top of all that.
No one said squat about it, or leafblower, or GKs. Xenos players have been taking it in the poop chute for years with nary a whisper of concern, but all of a sudden the meta shifts and puts Taudar and Demon 2++ hijinks on top and its a game destroying crisis?
Not feeling very compelled to be sympathetic, even though there may be some merit to the argument.....
I played a game with my buddy. We both brought the uberest cheese 2500 point list we could conceivably conceive. To generate my warp points I brought 11 ML of stuff. Stuff like a hive tyrant, a furioso libby, a couple warlocks and a farseer. He brought some sorcerers to give him I think 8 ML. Somehow every turn on his psychic phase he rolled a 3, putting my warp charges at 14 and his at 11.
His first turn, first game in 7e ever, he rolled 6 dice to get a summoning off. Woo! He made the roll! But periled. I then threw 8 dice and denied his summoning.
Because Im not too familiar with psyker stuff (Even though my favorite army is Eldar) I had my libby dread teleport (gate of infinity) into his back field, he failed to deny. That was literally all I bothered to use my warp charges on at that turn.
His next turn (game turn 2) He successfully summoned daemonettes and periled, which scattered and got put into ongoing reserves. Game turn 3 he was able to possess into a fateweaver. His daemonettes? Scattered again and I put them into the far back corner where they did nothing the whole game.
I dont even think his fateweaver (maybe it was a bloodthirster) managed to damage anything, I didnt bother to shoot at it and I wasnt afraid of it assaulting me because he was flying.
Capping warp charges? Why bother? It sounds scary but ill be back here tuesday, got another cheese game to play at 3000 points. Im bringing a bunch of inquisitors and spiritseers and psykers. Im 1985 points in and I have a total of 15 ML. Subtracting the 2 full dev flakka squads, the pimped out landraider, the dakkajet, escort termie squad, lootas etc, those 15 WCs only cost about 840 points.
After turn 1, I felt at no time during my game with my friend that Id be overrun at all by daemons.
Sigvatr wrote: Oh, I can fully understand her (her...iirc?) too. I started Necrons in 3rd and suffered through most of 5th. Felt going being good again. Never used flyers though...I was one of the like, idk, 5% that used to play for fluff
On the other hand, I am aiming, with the other guys, to create a competitive balance and summoning currently poses a high-priority problem.
Yes, her!lol.
Apologies if my rant came off as too harsh, it is a very frustrating time for DoC players especially right now as alongside Eldar, we seem to be the only targets of the so-called "Summonig just broken 40k" hysteria. My recent attempt to get in a game of the new rules didn't help much either, as the first comment from any potential opponent at the LGS last night was a steadfast "I'll only play if you agree to no Malefic allowed, because it's OP & breaks the game." (and here I was looking forwards to running a Malefic Tzherald w/Greater Locus - yes the D6 strength ability + 18 Horrors w/full command.)
Honestly I'm personally in the "let's wait and see" camp.
I agree that anyone who's purely gaming the system to farm maximum WC's in order to flood the table with essentially 'free' units & large monsters is terrible, just as the WD update that made Flamers & Screamers into Lv4 Super Saiyans was stupid!
However, I don't think it will actually be the huge problem the internets especially are blowing it up to be...
Tournaments will be regulated by both strict WYSIWYG rules, meaning a player has to physically own those 100+ Lessers & dozen or more Heralds/Greaters. (on top of carting about their starting 1500-1850pts army - hope you've got a suitcase big enough for that!) As well as likely limits on 1 Primary Detachment + 1 additional source, which will limit the availability of super cheap Mastery Lv3's.
Plus time constraints will make it incredibly difficult to get much beyond Turn 4 - meaning the DoC player only has effectively 2 turns to grab Objectives/VP's. And if Kill Points are heavily used by any event as a secondary objective, well, Tzeentch Clown Car is just handing out VP's to opponents like candy!
Then there's the fact that to actively dominate the Tourney scene, the Clown Car list has to be able to avoid it's many, many horrible match-ups. And let's face it, anything with alpha-strike ability, or high speed, or plenty of barrage/ignores cover weaponry will have a field day! In order to actively avoid more than 1-2 bad match-ups, the DoC player will have to be shoving a world-record setting number of horseshoes up their arse!
Non-Tournament play will simply be regulated the way it always has, by simply refusing to allow mass proxying & stand-ins for summon spamming, and/or ignoring TFG and his ego.
Tournaments will be regulated by both strict WYSIWYG rules, meaning a player has to physically own those 100+ Lessers & dozen or more Heralds/Greaters. (on top of carting about their starting 1500-1850pts army - hope you've got a suitcase big enough for that!)
Since even gw's only requirement is it must be based on a GW model or be made up of at least 50% GW parts and WYSIWYG and all daemons have next to no wargear this is not a problem. That's at official GW tournies(which is none in the US).
Daemons have always been one of the most converted and "counts as" army there and they all fall in line with what GW set up as acceptable.
If you buy build and paint the models I will play you with no problems. I think the force org needs to be limited, but it is too soon to see how the daemon army will fare against 7th edition armys instead of 6th edition armies.
Tournaments will be regulated by both strict WYSIWYG rules, meaning a player has to physically own those 100+ Lessers & dozen or more Heralds/Greaters. (on top of carting about their starting 1500-1850pts army - hope you've got a suitcase big enough for that!)
Since even gw's only requirement is it must be based on a GW model or be made up of at least 50% GW parts and WYSIWYG and all daemons have next to no wargear this is not a problem. That's at official GW tournies(which is none in the US).
Daemons have always been one of the most converted and "counts as" army there and they all fall in line with what GW set up as acceptable.
Which is true but, you still need different models to represent different things, and they cannot be unconverted space marines or guardsman.
As I said multiple times, heralds are very expensive and them along with horrors are extremely fragile (T3 5++). Use the other powerful thing in 7th edition, barrage, TFCs/Biovores/Wyverns etc all will pour wounds and kill them really quickly, and you can't avoid barrage under a roof anymore.
This edition is about mobility/MSU, a really all out summoning army won't have much offense for 1-2 turns. Pod armies, scouting armies, fast armies aka alpha striking armies will utterly decimate a full psychic summoning demon list.
And/or just throw a walker at them, there isn't much demons have to clear AV13 walkers easily.
Bringing down a herald or two early, or bringing horror units down a warp charge ( 15 horrors to 9 horrors -> 1 ML instead of 3), drastically reduces their power levels. With way less psykers and mastery levels, their chance at failing Malefic and/or risking perils increases a lot.
Unless they're having Godly dices, they're not gonna spawn 500 points on Turn 1.
OR, treat it as if you were fighting the old Tervigon-birthing spam army.
Tyrius wrote: Since even gw's only requirement is it must be based on a GW model or be made up of at least 50% GW parts and WYSIWYG and all daemons have next to no wargear this is not a problem. That's at official GW tournies(which is none in the US).
Daemons have always been one of the most converted and "counts as" army there and they all fall in line with what GW set up as acceptable.
There's a difference between "lovingly themed and converted army of daemons made to look like other fantastical creatures" and "a pile of Guardsmen". The former is cool converting and in the spirit of the game; the latter is proxying and shouldn't be allowed in tournaments that are enforcing WYSIWYG (unless the pile of Guardsmen has been painted in a ghostly fashion!)
I do agree that for 90% of people, the problems inherent in putting together the spare models required for true Daemon Spam will be daunting. Even if your local events don't require painting and allow you to just field partially-assembled daemons stuck to bases, you're still talking $30 a box at MSRP. That will probably be sufficient for most cases. The issue is that at major events, you very often do have players who have the disposable income to buy the models (and the spare time to paint them) or a large pool of friends to borrow additional daemons from. So, the "pay to play" boundary won't really exist at those points, which is what the discussion is about I think.
Capping warp charges does nothing to fix invisibility, and it actually makes many invisibility focused lists more of a problem in the meta. Once warp charge and dispel dice are limited to 12 the lists that have 12 attempts at invisibility or a guaranteed single invisibility can easily get their invisibility off without having to worry about running into a list that has a huge dispel pool..
Experiment 626 wrote: Maybe I'm biased as a Daemon player myself, but this yet against seems like just another "let's kick Daemon players in the nads again, because they're Daemon players and they don't deserve nice toys!"
I seem to recall back in 5th, when GK's could make it 100% impossible for us to even put a single model on the table, no one gave a rat's fart and just told us to, "suck it up because no one will play 60 strikes + 30 interceptors dumb***!"
Not even a whisper was spared for how complete awful a match-up it was, nor any mention of comp to help us out despite GK's being literally everywhere in events.
Then we got the frankly stupid WD rules that combined the best of both the 5th & 6th ed codices for three months, and the internet threw a massive tantrum and everyone called for Daemons to be nerfed into the ground because "we just broke the game."
Now we get a shiny toy in Malefic, and because of the potential for abuse, which only becomes heinously stupid if you allow massive proxying instead of simply enforcing the actual rules for said powers, suddenly we're the single worst thing to ever happen to 40k... again.
Sorry, but, suck it up buttercup!
Yes, we can summon, and some people may even have the 100-200+ models or 24+ Heralds/Greater Daemons to abuse it! (most however, won't - so if you allow 100+ proxies, than it's not GW's fault!)
There's plenty of tactics to get at the root of the problem, namely things like Drop Pods, Bikers, Termiecide w/Flamers, any barrage weapons, fast armies like Eldar/Dark Eldar, horde Orks, IG gunlines, Tau and their sheer amount of Ignores Cover shenanigans, etc...
So maybe Sisters are really screwed, but then we all know GW hates Sisters and won't support them - Ever!
Right now all this whinging about 'whaaaaa DoC broke 7th, whaaaaaa!' is frankly getting tiresome. We've taken it up the arse from everyone else, especially Grey Knights, so now it's our turn to have a fun toy that people can fear!
- Sincerely, a peeved-off Tzeentch player who's apparently TFG because "you're Daemons"
Sorry no, the answer is not disallowing proxy, since proxying just allows you to represent models you don't own, not add potentially thousands of points to your side in reinforcements. If you think any self respecting tournament organizer would go ahead with the summoning as is, well your delusional. Also good luck running a summon heavy list, proxy or no, and getting a second game with that person.
You really need to play some games of 7th edition before saying that you need to cap warp charges.
I played a 1500 point game today against a 9 WC demon army with my 10 WC Grey Knight army and I struggled to get any powers off.
In 6th edition I was casting powers like crazy in both player turns. This edition I was failing to cast prescience on 5d6 twice, and struggled to cast very many powers. That meant no hammerhands all around like 6th, and even Force was taking up a big chunk of WCs.
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Formosa wrote: No offence above post but your "cheese" list sucks, this is a cheese list
16 farseers, eldrad.
53 warp charges a turn, laughs at perils, will absolutely have any power it thinks it may need.
My mate did the following, fortune, invisibility, prescience, then summoned stupid amounts of deamonettes.
That's how you create a cheese list and abuse the New system, next game he plans on putting them all on jetbikes with singing spears.
That is not a reason for capping WC, but for fixing the FOC. If you just take a detachment with an ally you are not getting that many WCs.
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schadenfreude wrote: Capping warp charges does nothing to fix invisibility, and it actually makes many invisibility focused lists more of a problem in the meta. Once warp charge and dispel dice are limited to 12 the lists that have 12 attempts at invisibility or a guaranteed single invisibility can easily get their invisibility off without having to worry about running into a list that has a huge dispel pool..
We both had invisibility and I did not think that it was that big of a deal. Whichever unit had it cast on them I just ignored. In fact I am starting to like it because it is a deathstar neutralizer.
I still think letting a unit only benefit from 1 blessing at a time, or making all blessings and conjuring/summonings one use (for everyone who knows them) simply and elegantly solves both problems.
IF the FOC is limited, most armies cannot reliably spam WC without hurting themselves in other ways.
My Eldar, for example, can cast FAR less powers these days then they could in 6th and I am investing about ~200 more points into Psyker power.
Without double FOC the most WC you'll really see in any Eldar list should be 16-17, 10 Warlocks + 2 Farseers (or Eldrad). That isn't exceedingly powerful and requires a large amount of points to pull off.
Daemons can spam WC, but also have to invest a bunch of points in Psykers and thus they lose out on being able to take a wide variety of units.
Making it easier to DTW will make Psykers all but useless, IMO. Even with 10 WC + D6, i'm struggling to cast 2-4 blessings a turn. I'd be a bit miffed it that fell even further to 1-2 powers a turn. There'd be absolutely no reason for me to take any Farseers.
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Lobukia wrote: I still think letting a unit only benefit from 1 blessing at a time, or making all blessings and conjuring/summonings one use (for everyone who knows them) simply and elegantly solves both problems.
What an awful idea, why on earth would anyone want to invest 100+ points into any Psykers if they are one use only (not to mention that one use is hardly guaranteed)?
All this psyker spam sounds like it will result in a gimmick army. They have too many hard counters to some decent TAC lists and are too dice dependent to really be power houses IMO to consistently win games.
Formosa wrote: No offence above post but your "cheese" list sucks, this is a cheese list
16 farseers, eldrad.
53 warp charges a turn, laughs at perils, will absolutely have any power it thinks it may need.
My mate did the following, fortune, invisibility, prescience, then summoned stupid amounts of deamonettes.
That's how you create a cheese list and abuse the New system, next game he plans on putting them all on jetbikes with singing spears.
Lol Formosa good hearing from you!
Well the rest of my list was just crap as filler, like 18 wave serpents. He brought 3 nightscythes and a heldrake ya know.
Im still not impressed with daemonic powers being OP. To me its the new shiny thing. Itd be kinda cool if new powers were added every once in a while to keep things unbalanced. My list for tuesdays game is going to have a couple wyvrens thown in. Some of the inquisitors im bringing are going to do two things: Bring cheap warp charge points to the table, and throw out conversion beamer shots from afar. Same deal with the 2 seven psyker battle squad henchmen dudes. Throw out str10 ap 1 blasts.
Devastators and warwalkers with flakkadakka missiles and scatter lasers to handle flyers and infantry. A couple wyvrens to handle infantry and summons.
30 warp spiders to jump across the board and snipe my opponents daemon summons.
A wave serpent and wraithguard to handle toughies or squishies. Still got 80 points left over.
Phazael wrote: But my earlier experience was more about the love showered on the Cheese Wolves. Jaws of the Broken Wolf made several of my and my wife's armies completely unplayable when that book hit. Ork Power Claw nob? Suck it noob! Tyranid MC list? Smoke a fat one! Necrons? Lets just snipe that orb guy out of there with my 2 casts of Jaws. And if you do make it into combat with anything, my underpriced Grey Hunters will still outfight you, after shooting you to ribbons on the way in. And then GK came out and made multiwound model armies irrelevant on top of all that.
No one said squat about it, or leafblower, or GKs. Xenos players have been taking it in the poop chute for years with nary a whisper of concern, but all of a sudden the meta shifts and puts Taudar and Demon 2++ hijinks on top and its a game destroying crisis?
Not feeling very compelled to be sympathetic, even though there may be some merit to the argument.....
It's not just Xenos. Try getting anyone to listen to your complaints in 5th as a Black Templars player without getting "oh, but you can Codex hop!" or some variation thereof as a result.
Xenos armies have dominated 6th edition and dominated 4th edition, so you'll have to excuse me if I, in turn, find it hard to generate any sympathies back...
Lobukia wrote: I still think letting a unit only benefit from 1 blessing at a time, or making all blessings and conjuring/summonings one use (for everyone who knows them) simply and elegantly solves both problems.
When I see posting like this I realize that people have no idea what they are talking about, or have any idea of what is unbalanced.
To give you an example, let's take the Tau commander. Do you know how many "blessings" or abilities that he can give to unit? (I will give you a hint, it is a lot) Not only that, but they work 100% of the time and are dirt cheap in comparison.
Command and Control Node: Re-Roll failed To-Hit rolls
Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite: Ignore Cover
You get both of those for only 35 points. Unlike psychic powers they can't be stopped, you will not suffer PotW, and they will go off 100% of the time.
For a psycher to get those abilities they will need to get Prescience and Perfect timing. Prescience is easy to get, but Perfect Timing will need to be rolled on the Divination table so even if you want it, you might end up with a horrible power like Misfortune. Not only that, but to get them off with an 88% chance of success (for each power) you need to use 9 Warp Charges. That is basically the output of 2 ML 3 psychers (you can drop down to 6 WCs, but then each has less than a 75% chance to go off).
I did that without even having to bring up the Puretide Engram Neurochip: (Your choice of Counter-attack, Furious Charge, Monster Hunter, Stubborn, Tank Hunter.)
You all want to play at amateur rules writer, but you have no idea about balance and how armies work. Here is a news flash for you guys: psychic powers are not free! You pay a lot of points for them so they better be doing something.
In a few months people will realize that psychic powers are unreliable, cost a ton of points, and are generally not worth it. Until then we have to suffer through all of these posts.
I tend to agree with Blackmoor's post. Capping one's access to a phase of the game because it's "unbalanced" in the current state of 40k is the wrong way to go about things.
Though that post would have greatly benefited from a "Get off my lawn" to finish it.
I could see forbidding conjured units from generating powers from Maelific to stop geometric summoning progressionsc, but capping the psychic phase in any other way is just marine specific butthurt, much like the wailing about fliers that people had when the last edition hit.
Lobukia wrote: I still think letting a unit only benefit from 1 blessing at a time, or making all blessings and conjuring/summonings one use (for everyone who knows them) simply and elegantly solves both problems.
When I see posting like this I realize that people have no idea what they are talking about, or have any idea of what is unbalanced.
To give you an example, let's take the Tau commander. Do you know how many "blessings" or abilities that he can give to unit? (I will give you a hint, it is a lot) Not only that, but they work 100% of the time and are dirt cheap in comparison.
Command and Control Node: Re-Roll failed To-Hit rolls
Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite: Ignore Cover
You get both of those for only 35 points. Unlike psychic powers they can't be stopped, you will not suffer PotW, and they will go off 100% of the time.
For a psycher to get those abilities they will need to get Prescience and Perfect timing. Prescience is easy to get, but Perfect Timing will need to be rolled on the Divination table so even if you want it, you might end up with a horrible power like Misfortune. Not only that, but to get them off with an 88% chance of success (for each power) you need to use 9 Warp Charges. That is basically the output of 2 ML 3 psychers (you can drop down to 6 WCs, but then each has less than a 75% chance to go off).
I did that without even having to bring up the Puretide Engram Neurochip: (Your choice of Counter-attack, Furious Charge, Monster Hunter, Stubborn, Tank Hunter.)
You all want to play at amateur rules writer, but you have no idea about balance and how armies work. Here is a news flash for you guys: psychic powers are not free! You pay a lot of points for them so they better be doing something.
In a few months people will realize that psychic powers are unreliable, cost a ton of points, and are generally not worth it. Until then we have to suffer through all of these posts.
Is it worth mentioning that Tau don't have any psykers?
Lobukia wrote: I still think letting a unit only benefit from 1 blessing at a time, or making all blessings and conjuring/summonings one use (for everyone who knows them) simply and elegantly solves both problems.
When I see posting like this I realize that people have no idea what they are talking about, or have any idea of what is unbalanced.
To give you an example, let's take the Tau commander. Do you know how many "blessings" or abilities that he can give to unit? (I will give you a hint, it is a lot) Not only that, but they work 100% of the time and are dirt cheap in comparison.
Command and Control Node: Re-Roll failed To-Hit rolls
Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite: Ignore Cover
You get both of those for only 35 points. Unlike psychic powers they can't be stopped, you will not suffer PotW, and they will go off 100% of the time.
For a psycher to get those abilities they will need to get Prescience and Perfect timing. Prescience is easy to get, but Perfect Timing will need to be rolled on the Divination table so even if you want it, you might end up with a horrible power like Misfortune. Not only that, but to get them off with an 88% chance of success (for each power) you need to use 9 Warp Charges. That is basically the output of 2 ML 3 psychers (you can drop down to 6 WCs, but then each has less than a 75% chance to go off).
I did that without even having to bring up the Puretide Engram Neurochip: (Your choice of Counter-attack, Furious Charge, Monster Hunter, Stubborn, Tank Hunter.)
You all want to play at amateur rules writer, but you have no idea about balance and how armies work. Here is a news flash for you guys: psychic powers are not free! You pay a lot of points for them so they better be doing something.
In a few months people will realize that psychic powers are unreliable, cost a ton of points, and are generally not worth it. Until then we have to suffer through all of these posts.
Is it worth mentioning that Tau don't have any psykers?
So what? Daemons don't really have a Shooting phase.
Maybe we should cap the amount of shooting the Tau player can attempt because it's totally not fair for me to sit back and just watch my Tau opponent roll handfuls of dice in a phase I don't ever get much of a chance to participate in.
And come to think of it, Tau & IG/AM don't really have an Assault phase, so I guess we should talk about capping the amount of assault those OP Orks, Daemons, Khornate armies, etc... can make too, because it's unfair to Tau/IG players who "can't compete."
Or maybe we can do something really novel, such as play some 7th edition and stop the fear-mongering knee-jerking "fixes" to a system that's barely 1 entire ****ing week old!
Experiment 626 wrote: Or maybe we can do something really novel, such as play some 7th edition and stop the fear-mongering knee-jerking "fixes" to a system that's barely 1 entire ****ing week old!
Perhaps that would be a better use of our time. Now when you say 7th edition, do you mean the whole "bring whatever you want" thing or like, will there be limitations? If you're experiencing difficulties with a portion of your collection, should you bring more of your collection?
Are accusations of fear mongering and knee jerking working out for you?
Is it worth mentioning that Tau don't have any psykers?
That is exactly my point. Some armies buff themselves by just buying abilities, and others have to do it through the psychic phase.
Why are there people who want to cap what some armies can do, but not what others can do just because of the mechanics of how they do it?
It shouldn't matter, just bring other toys from your collection maybe your daemons just need tau allies no? I'm starting to think you're not forging a narrative bro
Is it worth mentioning that Tau don't have any psykers?
That is exactly my point. Some armies buff themselves by just buying abilities, and others have to do it through the psychic phase.
Why are there people who want to cap what some armies can do, but not what others can do just because of the mechanics of how they do it?
THANK YOU!
Imperial Guard do the same thing through orders, they can receive Tank/Monster hunter, Ignores Cover, etc.
Psychic Powers are so incredibly unreliable in 7th. So far in my games (only played 4), i've had rotten luck with powers and rarely get off more than 3 a turn (I take Eldrad, Farseer w/ Stones, 2 Warlocks). Now I have bloated my list with ~400 points worth of Psykers that do about half of what they did in 6th. I'm starting to feel like the entire phase is a waste of my time, due to its unreliability.
Limit the FOC and you'll curb most of the psychic BS. Daemons can keep their 20 warp charge armies, they have nothing else they are particularly good at.
Yeah capping warp charges is a knee jerk reaction,
to nerf ONE build that isnt that scary,
and also nerf every other pysker, and basically make GK a worthless auto pass over army...
why some people feel its ok to nerf certain armies, but leave tau and eldar totally alone with their shooting spam is just unfair.
Im unfortunately already seeing tournaments put 12 WC caps in place, but still have things like full on WS riptide flyer spam and imperial knights as a legal army... because str d apoc exlosions if I just happen to get lucky and take out one knight are fair because they just blow up my whole army,
but heaven forbid less then half my GKs even get the piss poor 50% chance to get hammer hand off...
Nerd the new, ban the new, based on one internet celebrity's video cast and stacking of a non competitive army against the new psykers. You do realize no one stopped parking lot spam, flyer spam, nor did we stop jet seer, beast star and ..... But give a little perceived power, which won't make a competitive build in tourneys, and hear the outcry. Let your TOs make back door phone calls and decide how your gonna play with the rules they think are fair. You don't like them don't go. If they loose business cause they make the wrong call, they loose...
Hopefully they have some ability to nerd bullets and wyverns too. Throw that up for discussion, lmao
Blackmoor wrote: You really need to play some games of 7th edition before saying that you need to cap warp charges.
I played a 1500 point game today against a 9 WC demon army with my 10 WC Grey Knight army and I struggled to get any powers off.
In 6th edition I was casting powers like crazy in both player turns. This edition I was failing to cast prescience on 5d6 twice, and struggled to cast very many powers. That meant no hammerhands all around like 6th, and even Force was taking up a big chunk of WCs.
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Formosa wrote: No offence above post but your "cheese" list sucks, this is a cheese list
16 farseers, eldrad.
53 warp charges a turn, laughs at perils, will absolutely have any power it thinks it may need.
My mate did the following, fortune, invisibility, prescience, then summoned stupid amounts of deamonettes.
That's how you create a cheese list and abuse the New system, next game he plans on putting them all on jetbikes with singing spears.
That is not a reason for capping WC, but for fixing the FOC. If you just take a detachment with an ally you are not getting that many WCs.
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schadenfreude wrote: Capping warp charges does nothing to fix invisibility, and it actually makes many invisibility focused lists more of a problem in the meta. Once warp charge and dispel dice are limited to 12 the lists that have 12 attempts at invisibility or a guaranteed single invisibility can easily get their invisibility off without having to worry about running into a list that has a huge dispel pool..
We both had invisibility and I did not think that it was that big of a deal. Whichever unit had it cast on them I just ignored. In fact I am starting to like it because it is a deathstar neutralizer.
As Blackmoor's opponent in that game, I agree that warp charge does not need a cap. I'm not sure Invis needs a ban either. I mean, I don't want to see an invisible beaststar, but Eldar are pretty much straight OP no matter what you do short of increasing the cost of everything 10-20% or so, so if I can put an invisible Soul Grinder in its way that it can't HNR past because its footprint is too big, I'm all for it.
Something does need to be done to restrict summoning Daemons to a sane level so that 500 points aren't hitting the table per turn, but one or two units in a turn is not egregious considering they only land within 12" of the model that cast them, and it isn't too hard to take out the summoners
They should consider capping the necrons Voltaic staff from assault 4 haywire, to assault 1 haywire, and after you hit, before you roll to wound, you should roll to see if the haywire effect goes off as well a 6 on a d6, and if it does your opponent cant roll a d6 and on a 6 he cancels it. If it goes off ok, then you can proceed to roll for the wound/haywire.
When necrons are knocked down, only 1 necron per unit per turn should be able to use RP. The rest are destroyed.
When you have a squad of warriors and they fire their gauss weapons at a vehicle, only 1 gauss weapon should auto glance even if the rest hit on 6's.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am incredibly doubtful that daemon summoning will at all be an earth shattering auto win tactic. Cool, they just summoned 20 daemonettes (from 2 different units). Guess what those daemonettes cant do? Assault you that turn. Plenty of time for more dakka!
I've done some calculations. Picture is attached. As you can see, it's much more difficult to cast powers in 7e than it was in 6e, where the chance on Ld10 was ~92%.
Also, after reviewing the Frontline BatRep, I calculated the chances that he would succeed on his series of Summoning rolls: Summoning, 6d6, passes; Summoning, 6d6, passes; Summoning, 6d6, passes; Summoning, 5d6, passes; Summoning, 5d6, passes; Summoning, 5d6, passes. The chances of that is 3.53%. This is a VERY RARE occurrence. His dice were hot, if not outright loaded. (No, I'm not accusing him of cheating.)
Beating Daemons with the ban-hammer after one single insane game isn't a very wise thing to do. As others have stated in the thread, if you're going to try and "fix" the only thing Tzeentch Daemons are good at anymore, maybe you should try and "fix" the only things that some other armies are good at: "fix" Tau shooting buffs, "fix" Eldar Bladestorm, "fix" Tyranid FMCs, "fix" Necron Flyer spam (they can now fit 10 into two CADs at 1850pts).
Elric Greywolf wrote: I've done some calculations. Picture is attached. As you can see, it's much more difficult to cast powers in 7e than it was in 6e, where the chance on Ld10 was ~92%.
Also, after reviewing the Frontline BatRep, I calculated the chances that he would succeed on his series of Summoning rolls:
Summoning, 6d6, passes; Summoning, 6d6, passes; Summoning, 6d6, passes; Summoning, 5d6, passes; Summoning, 5d6, passes; Summoning, 5d6, passes.
The chances of that is 3.53%. This is a VERY RARE occurrence. His dice were hot, if not outright loaded. (No, I'm not accusing him of cheating.)
Beating Daemons with the ban-hammer after one single insane game isn't a very wise thing to do. As others have stated in the thread, if you're going to try and "fix" the only thing Tzeentch Daemons are good at anymore, maybe you should try and "fix" the only things that some other armies are good at: "fix" Tau shooting buffs, "fix" Eldar Bladestorm, "fix" Tyranid FMCs, "fix" Necron Flyer spam (they can now fit 10 into two CADs at 1850pts).
very good synopsis of the actual state of psychic powers in game right now.
personally just played un nerfed D factory, tabled them by t 4 quite easily, despite him making summons rolls, gaining 500pts in a 1750 before
my TAC guard list simply removed more models then he summoned, they are after all, basically guards men with a 5++ once its all said and done. He did summon a free greater deamon... but ho hum, didnt really matter, he had nothing to shoot me with the first two turns so any shooty army will just totally screw over D factory lists. Luck wasnt a factor either, aside from him getting turn one and all summons off at first, neither of us had extremely good or bad luck.
its very unfortunate that so many people are basing their opinions and encouraging bans based on one, hugely lopsided battle report that had some extremely lucky dice rolled.
(reece even admits it wasnt meant to be taken as a good match up, it was just randoms playing for fun, remember fun is the whole point! great bat rep! but people get carried away with what it means)
besides which, if you are really that worried about the rare possibility of the opponent summoning 60 t3 models a turn
then ban having that # of summoned models on the table... not every psyker. ever.
same with invis, hit that with the nerf bat, make it target able with blast and templates and its fixed and fluffy.
nerf s should be very specific and focused on the actual problem, and not take such wide broad strokes that have far reaching affects, to deal with one specific thing.
I don't think people want capped dice because of Summoning though?
I think it is so they can reliably build a list with there 1-2-3 psykers that can fairly reliably cast the powers that they want to buff there army and make it more efficient?
If you do not cap warp charges you then you can not go to a tournament thinking you can base an army around a psycic spell as you might come across a 30+ warp charge army that will shut you down.
At the same time, though, a cap will hurt armies that rely on powers.
Daemons, especially Tzeentch, require high warpcharges for nearly 100% of their shooting.
If you cap warp charges then you can not go to a tournament thinking you can use an army that requires psychic powers as a small number of warp charge dice will shut you down.
by that logic, we should implement rolls known as "shooting charges" and cap them at 12...
all you tau and eldar and IG players can roll them as you want, stack them as you want, but only 12 shooting charges.
to shoot with each unit, first roll 1 or more shooting carges, and 4+ lets you shoot, while double 6's makes you shoot yourself with no saves allowed. also, your opponent can roll a dice and dispel your shots on a 6+, but must dispel each shooting charge you suceeded on harnessing.
there... fair right?
why should I bring an asault army, expecting it to do well, when I can just run into armies with 100+ shooting dice per turn who just SHUT ME DOWN in the shooting phase?
and yes, that is exactly the same comparison, if you pay pts to DOMINATE a phase, good for you, there are ways to pay points to dominate literally, every single phase in the game.
you paid your points you get the benifits.
people moan about how 40k is unbalanced, and only uber shooty armies do well like eldar and tau...
then they buff those armies again, and nerf all the psyker armies...
real smart...
great way to alienate every demon or GK, and soon every ork player, ever.
this is not fantasy... what may have worked for fantasy does not work for us in this case... you might as well say "AP is unfair, do the modifyer system and implement 1+ and better saves"
fantasy does not have 100-300+ dice rolled each shooting phase, plus large blasts, D weapons, APOC templates, super heavies, tanks, marker lights, ever living and we will be back armies that come back on 4/5+ with NOTHING you can do about, super heavy walkers and so on.
bodazoka wrote: I don't think people want capped dice because of Summoning though?
I think it is so they can reliably build a list with there 1-2-3 psykers that can fairly reliably cast the powers that they want to buff there army and make it more efficient?
If you do not cap warp charges you then you can not go to a tournament thinking you can base an army around a psycic spell as you might come across a 30+ warp charge army that will shut you down.
If you don't cap Markerlights, then you can't go to a tournament with Nurgle Daemons, or an ADL, because all your cover saves will disappear.
If you don't cap MSS, then you can't go to a tournament with a Paladin Death Star, because your cool characters will just hit themselves.
The point of the new psychic phase is to make Psychic stuff EVEN MORE UNRELIABLE than before (and with power generation in 6e, it was already pretty unreliable). Basing your army on anything psychic is a fairly bad idea...as such, perhaps you deserve to lose at a tournament, since your strategy is tactically unsound!
Any player that brings anything to a battle has to realise that he might come up against an opponent who renders his particular tactic useless. Grey Knights with Warpquake, for example, shut down Drop Pod armies pretty hard, and were just plain unfair to 5e Daemonic Assault. Does that deserve a nerf? No! Because some things about the game are just tough. Suck it up, adapt on the fly, and try to beat your opponent. That's how war is.
bodazoka wrote: If you do not cap warp charges you then you can not go to a tournament thinking you can base an army around a psycic spell as you might come across a 30+ warp charge army that will shut you down.
This may be giving GW too much credit, but it's almost as if the psychic phase was designed to counter deathstars that relied on psychic powers. If my opponent fishes for Invis or Fortune, I (a Tzeentch Daemon player) might be able to shut it down if I devote all of my dice to doing so. It's all part of the meta.
bodazoka wrote: I don't think people want capped dice because of Summoning though?
I think it is so they can reliably build a list with there 1-2-3 psykers that can fairly reliably cast the powers that they want to buff there army and make it more efficient?
If you do not cap warp charges you then you can not go to a tournament thinking you can base an army around a psycic spell as you might come across a 30+ warp charge army that will shut you down.
You should not have the expectation that you are entitled to bring a single Primaris Psyker with your AM army and get to cast Prescience on your blob guard squad just because you want to. You'd be better off playing to your own strengths.
For those of you using the "Well cap shooting then" argument, you do realize that comp essentially does that right?
Take Da boyz GT for example, they have a cap of 4 dedicated transports that shuts down serpent spam from getting ridiculous. They also have a rule where anything that isn't troops (or dedicated transports) has a 0-2 limit to prevent lame ass spamming.
So having Belakor and 3 biomancy nurgle princes backed up with screamers all getting 2+ (some rerollable) saves and has a total of 12 warp charges is fine. Adding in a bajillion heralds and summoning LoCs and more tzeentch heralds and the game gets dumb.
So needing more than 12 warp charges to shoot with my army is dumb, even though if I had all my Warp Charges it equates to a small number of shots when compared to Tau, hell or even Shooty-Build Space Marines, who have no such cap.
Ravenous D wrote: For those of you using the "Well cap shooting then" argument, you do realize that comp essentially does that right?
Take Da boyz GT for example, they have a cap of 4 dedicated transports that shuts down serpent spam from getting ridiculous. They also have a rule where anything that isn't troops (or dedicated transports) has a 0-2 limit to prevent lame ass spamming.
So having Belakor and 3 biomancy nurgle princes backed up with screamers all getting 2+ (some rerollable) saves and has a total of 12 warp charges is fine. Adding in a bajillion heralds and summoning LoCs and more tzeentch heralds and the game gets dumb.
That's what capping is about, stop dumb stuff.
But that is not what it does, DA boyz is capping units, and even that doesn't tone down shooting possibilities. So I only get 2 broadside teams of 4 wave serpents etc... And how is 2+ save everything ok to you and say 6 full orrow squads not?
HHS issue is in one case you are capping units, which I'm more ok with, rather than capping a phase. There is a large difference between saying broadside teams are 0-2 and saying you can only have say 30 shots total in your army. If you want to stop dumb stuff stop dumb stuff. Limit like only two units rolling on daemonology per army or something.. A cap on charges =\= a limit on summoning! it limits everything one might want to do in that phase. Also consider your daemon list has 12+ d6 so if the limit is 12 then they never get the d6. Furthermore , that list will likely run horrors to power up their princes etc.
Why doesn't everyone just take all the rules put them in a blender and pull out the bits they like? Or you could just deal with what is on the page and play the game.
Some times you win and some times you lose. I suffered through the Eldar 2+ rerollable cover saves and the Screamstar crap. This is just the next bit of cheese. If you play in a tournament then bring your best list because the guy next to you will.
I play because I like the game and the army I play. GW has made the rules and I follow them, if you don't like the rules play another game or make up your own. If you're going to play at a competitive level then play the rules in the book. I can't go onto the football field and say "I don't like that rule, please change it so I can play a fair game."
Ravenous D wrote: For those of you using the "Well cap shooting then" argument, you do realize that comp essentially does that right?
Take Da boyz GT for example, they have a cap of 4 dedicated transports that shuts down serpent spam from getting ridiculous. They also have a rule where anything that isn't troops (or dedicated transports) has a 0-2 limit to prevent lame ass spamming.
So having Belakor and 3 biomancy nurgle princes backed up with screamers all getting 2+ (some rerollable) saves and has a total of 12 warp charges is fine. Adding in a bajillion heralds and summoning LoCs and more tzeentch heralds and the game gets dumb.
That's what capping is about, stop dumb stuff.
1. Capping non-Troops to 0-2 per unit, or Dedicated Transports to 0-4 does absolutely nothing to supposedly "cap shooting."
An Eldar army doesn't get any less obnoxious just because it's limited to only 4 Wave Serpents, as those pts not spent on the other 2 will simply go into other solid options like Warp Spiders or War Walkers or whatever.
Capping Warp Charges at 12 on the other hand means Tzeentch Daemons gets 100% kicked in the nads as now it can't shoot more than 6-8D6 shots at average BS. (and if it's shooting, it's not casting any augments like Prescience or Cursed Earth when you only have limited charges)
2. There's no way to run Belakor + 3 Bio Princes + Screamers and have ALL of them with 2+ saves.
And for the record, Screamerstar & Jetseerstar are dead ducks. You don't need a Warp Charge cap to stop them as they can no longer last turn mass deny Objectives, nor do they have nearly the same Psychic dominance due to the overall changes to that phase.
If you think Malefic is broken, I can't wait to hear the whine fests once people realise what Santic is going to do!
MSRC27 wrote: Why doesn't everyone just take all the rules put them in a blender and pull out the bits they like? Or you could just deal with what is on the page and play the game.
Some times you win and some times you lose. I suffered through the Eldar 2+ rerollable cover saves and the Screamstar crap. This is just the next bit of cheese. If you play in a tournament then bring your best list because the guy next to you will.
I play because I like the game and the army I play. GW has made the rules and I follow them, if you don't like the rules play another game or make up your own. If you're going to play at a competitive level then play the rules in the book. I can't go onto the football field and say "I don't like that rule, please change it so I can play a fair game."
NUT UP AND SHUT UP!
Fundamentally, Warhammer 40k is not a balanced game with a tight rule set. The rule book itself repeatedly talks about 'forging a narrative' and implies that opponents should attempt to come up with cool stories and discuss beforehand what models to field in order to create cinematic scenarios.
This lack of concern for balance and rules is made abundantly clear around the turn of an edition: multiple glaring rules questions go unanswered, or answers are even removed as the 'FAQs' get updated. Changes to the rules - eg, stopping FMC from assaulting the same turn they change flight mode in 7E, or changing Valkyries to Flyers in 6E - drastically changes the relative worth of those units without changes in points costs and without updates for years afterwards.
Despite this, a large number of players want to play 40k as a competitive game, where two players can be pit against each other without ever having spoken before, and the best general walks away with a trophy.
So it becomes immediately clear that if you want to play an unbalanced game competitively, you need to change something to make it balanced. The problem is that without a central undeniable authority to take GW's place, we're instead stuck on forums debating about what may or may not be overpowered, and the only effective authority is the TO. And this creates its own issues, because different TOs will have different rulings, and so what may be considered a legal/balanced army in one venue is not allowed in another. No-one trusts GW's rules, but at least they are 'final', 'objective' and can't be argued with - unlike a TO.
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maybe your daemons just need tau allies no? I'm starting to think you're not forging a narrative bro 
