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 dracpanzer wrote:
Why does Fateweaver give you 7 WC? Isn't he a ML4 psyker?

Technically he is 2 Lv4 psykers...

But he is only ever one at a time. Never both

Capping Warp Charges isn't the best solution. While it would definitely nerf the summoning issue, it would also nerf most other psykers despite them not causing balance issues.

Summoning has internal issues, especially when used with Codex: Demons and they must be addressed on a competitive level. How is still up to debate. For now, I cannot recommend playing 7th anyway until the FAQs hit. If you still want to play with 7th, I recommend banning Daemonlogy or trying to approach it in smaller steps, e.g. by limiting the number / pointscost of demons that can be summoned etc.

The main problem with the new system is that disspelling powers is way too hard as you got less dice than your opponent who relies on casting yet your chances to dispel are significantally lower.

Casting will need to be adressed, but I recommend trying to take smaller steps by now.

why do people keep acting like chance to dispell is lower...

you used to have a 0% chance to dispell these kinds of powers...

you now have a chance better then 0%, and can throw all your dice at it.. you still generate #ML+d6 charges to dispel in your oppenents P phase too,

why on earth do people think NON psyker armies should have a 20-40% chance to dispel a power that only has a 65% chance to go off, costs 6 warp charges, and has a 26% chance to perils?

even with d6 + ML# of charges, in 7th edition, the # of powers I can cast has gone DOWN significantly, the RISK has gone UP significantly (read 5% chance to perils to 26% chance if I actually want the power to go off reliably)

powers got far harder to cast, by a much large % then the very tiny nerf to SOME DTW rolls... ESP when DTW got buffed in the respect that you can portentially dispel anything now, and choose to throw all your dice at that one power you actually need to dispel, or just bank them on an easier power to dispel like force...


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 jy2 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I found that most of my pskyers where useless if I wanted to cast more powers even w/o a cap. But I need them for the WC

There will always be that discrepency if you bring a psychic-lite army.

Like if you run Tau against orks. Since Tau will outshoot orks like 1000 to 1, why don't we cap the number of shots Tau can take to 20 per turn then?

exactly... shooty armies dont get their shootyness nerfed just because they can out shoot everything into oblivion, at a much MUCH more reliable rate then powers can...

So why nerf psychic armies into oblivion because they psychic better then non pychic armies?

even without a cap, my GK are 100% screwed, even with stacking as many warp charges as I humanly can (which cripples my offensive power) I still cannot get even close to the # of powers off as I could in 6th... and i will be peril'ing at an average rate of 20+% instead of 5%... thats not good, thats a huge nerf.

 easysauce wrote:
why do people keep acting like chance to dispell is lower...

you used to have a 0% chance to dispell these kinds of powers...

you now have a chance better then 0%, and can throw all your dice at it.. you still generate #ML+d6 charges to dispel in your oppenents P phase too,

why on earth do people think NON psyker armies should have a 20-40% chance to dispel a power that only has a 65% chance to go off, costs 6 warp charges, and has a 26% chance to perils?

even with d6 + ML# of charges, in 7th edition, the # of powers I can cast has gone DOWN significantly, the RISK has gone UP significantly (read 5% chance to perils to 26% chance if I actually want the power to go off reliably)

powers got far harder to cast, by a much large % then the very tiny nerf to SOME DTW rolls... ESP when DTW got buffed in the respect that you can portentially dispel anything now, and choose to throw all your dice at that one power you actually need to dispel, or just bank them on an easier power to dispel like force...


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 jy2 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I found that most of my pskyers where useless if I wanted to cast more powers even w/o a cap. But I need them for the WC

There will always be that discrepency if you bring a psychic-lite army.

Like if you run Tau against orks. Since Tau will outshoot orks like 1000 to 1, why don't we cap the number of shots Tau can take to 20 per turn then?

exactly... shooty armies dont get their shootyness nerfed just because they can out shoot everything into oblivion, at a much MUCH more reliable rate then powers can...

So why nerf psychic armies into oblivion because they psychic better then non pychic armies?

even without a cap, my GK are 100% screwed, even with stacking as many warp charges as I humanly can (which cripples my offensive power) I still cannot get even close to the # of powers off as I could in 6th... and i will be peril'ing at an average rate of 20+% instead of 5%... thats not good, thats a huge nerf.

Because my friend's tau don't shoot to much that they creat a rip in space time, and start spawning a extra 600+ points in units ever turn.

I also don't punch people in the face so hard in CC, that I start createing new orks because gork or maby mork willed it.


I agree that nerfing pyschic heavy armies with a cap is not a good idea. It's just the malfic powers are so abusable.

 Lockark wrote:

Because my friend's tau don't shoot to much that they creat a rip in space time, and start spawning a extra 600+ points in units ever turn.

you dont get 600+ pts every turn, you are making stuff up... maybe take a step back if you actually believe that, bescause it simply

Is

not

true.

you MIGHT get one or two summons off each turn... by turn 3 you statistically have killed a few of your casters if not their entire unit from perils... you are taking a very skewed and innacrurate look at this

and that is with your entire ARMY dedicated to just provideing WC's for summins, meaning you have no real offense, are crowded into your side of the table, summoning group after group of 10 models, that have to be places by deepstrike rules, right next you your board edge/troops.

So cons are: lots of perils, lots of DS mishaps, no real 1st turn offensive power, and only a 65% chance to get somthing off with a 26% chance to perils... all to get a unit of demons....

spending a whole armies worth of pts to generate a few hundred pts worth of troops per turn is not going to work as well as just spending PTs on being able to leafblower over half their army in one turn with tau style shooting...

Implying orks will not begin to spawn extra orks in CC like mushrooms

Also how are you summoning +600 points per turn!? O.o using standard summons (going to use troops) you can get 90 points or 100 points of daemons. That means about 6 casts is 540 points (not 600 because bloodletters suck). That is 6 ML3 spells. That's a total of 18 dice to hopefully pass and 36 to at least reliably pass them.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Implying orks will not begin to spawn extra orks in CC like mushrooms

Also how are you summoning +600 points per turn!? O.o using standard summons (going to use troops) you can get 90 points or 100 points of daemons. That means about 6 casts is 540 points (not 600 because bloodletters suck). That is 6 ML3 spells. That's a total of 18 dice to hopefully pass and 36 to at least reliably pass them.

aparently, getting 6 ml3 spells off with 18 dice, with a 12% chance of success, is a "sure thing"... even without factoring in the detriments of perils and DTW

 easysauce wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Implying orks will not begin to spawn extra orks in CC like mushrooms

Also how are you summoning +600 points per turn!? O.o using standard summons (going to use troops) you can get 90 points or 100 points of daemons. That means about 6 casts is 540 points (not 600 because bloodletters suck). That is 6 ML3 spells. That's a total of 18 dice to hopefully pass and 36 to at least reliably pass them.

aparently, getting 6 ml3 spells off with 18 dice, with a 12% chance of success, is a "sure thing"... even without factoring in the detriments of perils and DTW

Welcome to DakkaDakka, where the sky is constantly falling. (now with 1000% more tears of whiney of nerd rage )

My favored solution:

-Summoned units have an "upkeep" paid in psychic dice. The cost is equal to the number of dice the player used to cast the summon (IE generally 6-7 per unit.) These dice are automatically subtracted from the owning player's dice pool in both his own and his opponent's psychic phase, after psychic dice are generated, but before any powers are rolled, as long as that unit still exists in the game. If the owning player must pay more dice than he has, he must instead choose a summoned unit to remove as casualties, and must repeat this until his psychic dice pool would become zero or above. These units are counted as being removed as casualties for the purposes of victory points and tactical objectives.

-Summoned units are removed from the table at the end of the game, before results are tallied. If kill points are being used, any unit that was at half strength (or wounds) or below counts as killed. Thus summoned units cannot claim objectives at the end of the game, nor can they claim linebreaker.

-Summoned units may not summon other units.


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Although having only one summon per turn, or maybe x per certain point value could work too.

niv-mizzet wrote:
My favored solution:

-Summoned units have an "upkeep" paid in psychic dice. The cost is equal to the number of dice the player used to cast the summon (IE generally 6-7 per unit.) These dice are automatically subtracted from the owning player's dice pool in both his own and his opponent's psychic phase, after psychic dice are generated, but before any powers are rolled, as long as that unit still exists in the game. If the owning player must pay more dice than he has, he must instead choose a summoned unit to remove as casualties, and must repeat this until his psychic dice pool would become zero or above. These units are counted as being removed as casualties for the purposes of victory points and tactical objectives.

-Summoned units are removed from the table at the end of the game, before results are tallied. If kill points are being used, any unit that was at half strength (or wounds) or below counts as killed. Thus summoned units cannot claim objectives at the end of the game, nor can they claim linebreaker.

-Summoned units may not summon other units.


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Although having only one summon per turn, or maybe x per certain point value could work too.

So in other words, let's make summoning so bad that it becomes a moot point because no one will take it now?

Why don't we just go ahead and ban Daemons, since that's what most of these whine threads are pretty much aiming for?!

Everyone tosses numbers and statistics around like they have data. You don't.

Go play about 200 games so youcan apply the Law of Large numbers and we can look how games are actually turning out. It's not even been a week yet. Go play games and see what actually happens before arguing about how we change the game.

And Orks will be out soon, and maybe they kill every demon in the universe and it's a moot point

I don't believe that would make them "so bad that it becomes useless" at all.

You could still throw upwards of 500-600 points of units you didn't pay for against an enemy in a 2k game. And if any of those die, you have the dice available again.

An army just using a summon here and there will still be able to use it just fine, but it holds off lists from going full on crazy and doubling your army in points by turn 4.


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 mikhaila wrote:
Everyone tosses numbers and statistics around like they have data. You don't.

If I see a cartoon character running towards a banana peel, I don't need to wait a month to figure out the likely outcome.


It's pretty easy to figure out that an army that gains a 25% points advantage on turn 1, followed by more on subsequent turns, with extremely varied and versatile summons, is going to wreck face.

It's also easy to figure out that someone who outnumbers you 6-1 in psychic dice is going to completely shut down any powers you have.

I don't think capping the number of warp charges is the change we need to make. Moreover, it is far too early to say definitively that something "has" to be done just yet.

My early suggestion is to cap the number of warp charges a psyker can throw to cast powers at their mastery level x2+1. The problem isn't necessarily that armies can have too many charges, it is that they can throw so many dice at powers as to near guarantee both their success and that the opponent will be unable to deny. This is especially exacerbated by Eldar Ghosthelms.

It seems Perils are going to pop up a lot more. The table is a two edge sword, but it is not a fantasy kind of sword. I will be playing and seeing what happens. I can tell that not coming to the battlefield with psykers is going to hurt. But I believe that only a couple of dexes have that issue. We have all heard how CSM and Deamons have been nerfed, now they get a buff and we hear "FOUL". It tells me to take almost everything on this forum with a grain a salt.

I personally think all the changes are spot on. People really need to read, there is so much change and in strange little places. Things like vehicle wrecks on longer dangerous, fixing the crazy "9 regroup move for SMs, leadership test for passengers in Shaken/Stunned vehicles, auto counter-attack, auto split fire, and the list goes on. My favorite is the new fire/hit/wound/save for each weapon type. I think that is really making the game much better and much more enjoyable.

So play some games, CORRECTLY, and report back. Watch out for the new psyker rules and phase, it is not what it seems on paper.

After reading Biomancy, I think you're honestly wasting the potential of the army by throwing every single Mastery Lv from all your Daemon Princes into Malefic...

There is some truly heinous beatstick potential hidden away in Biomancy Princes now!

Experiment 626 wrote:
After reading Biomancy, I think you're honestly wasting the potential of the army by throwing every single Mastery Lv from all your Daemon Princes into Malefic...

There is some truly heinous beatstick potential hidden away in Biomancy Princes now!

Of course they also have to wait till T3 for an assault and need to weather a turn of damage. Unless we are going more for some Slaaneshi princes here . Sady I'm a Tzeentch guy at heart so no whip for me! Maybe one to cast tel hopefully for invinceability. Even 12" movement+d6 could work if you make enemies hit you on 6s and only snapshots.

 Ravenous D wrote:
It's pretty obvious that daemons (and a few others) are beyond ridiculous with the number of Warp Charges they can get so I believe tournaments should agree to cap warp charges at 12 like in fantasy just for overall balance.

Try it out and see how you feel.

You have no idea what you are talking about, and what is your proof?

If you run the numbers, psychic powers are much worse in 7th edition than they were in 6th edition.

Not only that, but the more warp charges you get, the worse they become!

If it gets out of control there is always killpoints secondary mission in tourneys. The rules remain unmolested and everybody finds another reason to be unhappy.

Rather than capping Warp Charges, isn't a more elegant solution simply bumping up the cost of the individual powers (invisibility, summons) that are undercosted? I bet just a +1 WC cost brings them from being broken to being just really good.

Not necessarily. At this point summons are arguably not worth it. Thing is, we won't know until they FAQ things. For all we know it might only be heralds and the non-khorne greater daemons that can summon. Add to that, the spell already costs 3 WC meaning that the spell only becomes relatively reliable at 6 charges. Even a daemonspam army will struggle to handle this likely and the situation only gets worse if you make it 4 WC as it then costs about 8 to even relatively reliably cast the spell. At that point why even bother casting it? Same goes to other spells. If you nerf them too much somebody will just go to the new black until you nerf everything to be worthless (and believe me there are some worthless spells in there). The biggest trap is people think spells are easy to cast. They aren't. They actually became more difficult to cast with higher chances to peril than before. One peril instadeaths even your eternal warrior character, another makes you forget a random spell, and the rest (bar one exception) at the very least harm you. Heck it'll only take 2 perils for a herald to die.

 Quientin wrote:
If it gets out of control there is always killpoints secondary mission in tourneys. The rules remain unmolested and everybody finds another reason to be unhappy.

Unfortunately, KP's never really worked well as a balancer, they didn't do the job in 5th, and won't solve the issue now. For one, it assumes that you can kill the extra masses of units, which aren't exactly summoned at weakened strength nor are many particularly squishy units. And two, it punishes a whole bunch of other armies and leads to absolutely absurd game conclusions in many instances. KP's are, and always will be, a lazy mechanic that doesn't serve the balance purpose people keep hoping it will. All KP's do is give you stupid game outcomes.

If you wanted to use the old VP system of actual unit value, that might work better, but requires more effort on the part of players to assess the value of the summoned units and the value of what was destroyed.

 StarTrotter wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
After reading Biomancy, I think you're honestly wasting the potential of the army by throwing every single Mastery Lv from all your Daemon Princes into Malefic...

There is some truly heinous beatstick potential hidden away in Biomancy Princes now!

Of course they also have to wait till T3 for an assault and need to weather a turn of damage. Unless we are going more for some Slaaneshi princes here . Sady I'm a Tzeentch guy at heart so no whip for me! Maybe one to cast tel hopefully for invinceability. Even 12" movement+d6 could work if you make enemies hit you on 6s and only snapshots.

With wings you should be able to get off a T2 assault - just don't take off and stick your 12" movement and use the available cover tactically like we always had too back in 5th & earlier. That's a total of 12" + 12" + 2D6 charge - something juicy should end up in range of that!

I will have to try out a Tzeentch Prince w/Lv3 Biomancy + Eternal Beatstick, Greater reward & Wings...
Just the thought of landing Warpspeed for a total of 5 + 3 + D3 + 1 on the charge makes me giggle! Odds are also pretty solid of having Iron Arm or Endurance to combo with with for added protection. (and S8-10 just for lols!)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
After reading Biomancy, I think you're honestly wasting the potential of the army by throwing every single Mastery Lv from all your Daemon Princes into Malefic...

There is some truly heinous beatstick potential hidden away in Biomancy Princes now!

Of course they also have to wait till T3 for an assault and need to weather a turn of damage. Unless we are going more for some Slaaneshi princes here . Sady I'm a Tzeentch guy at heart so no whip for me! Maybe one to cast tel hopefully for invinceability. Even 12" movement+d6 could work if you make enemies hit you on 6s and only snapshots.

With wings you should be able to get off a T2 assault - just don't take off and stick your 12" movement and use the available cover tactically like we always had too back in 5th & earlier. That's a total of 12" + 12" + 2D6 charge - something juicy should end up in range of that!

I will have to try out a Tzeentch Prince w/Lv3 Biomancy + Eternal Beatstick, Greater reward & Wings...
Just the thought of landing Warpspeed for a total of 5 + 3 + D3 + 1 on the charge makes me giggle! Odds are also pretty solid of having Iron Arm or Endurance to combo with with for added protection. (and S8-10 just for lols!)

True but it's more the cautious oh sweet gosh my T5 is going to hurt isn't it? Nonetheless maybe it is time to take out my Flaming Chariots of Tzeentch (THEY FINALLY WORK!), screamers, and flamers and cackle as my army just zooms around.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
It's pretty obvious that daemons (and a few others) are beyond ridiculous with the number of Warp Charges they can get so I believe tournaments should agree to cap warp charges at 12 like in fantasy just for overall balance.

Try it out and see how you feel.

You have no idea what you are talking about, and what is your proof?

If you run the numbers, psychic powers are much worse in 7th edition than they were in 6th edition.

Not only that, but the more warp charges you get, the worse they become!

Ask your frontline buddies about how awesome it is to summon 90 daemons in 2 turns.

I do think certain powers, summoning and invisibility are defibitely worth nerfing or adjusting, that being said the new pyshic phase is okay. Denying is tough and specifically tailored pysker armies will dominate those without some pyshic defense.
I think the biggest problem with 7th is the FoC and allies. Its so stupid and unbound means nothinf because if you play straight from the book normal games are so stupid.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
It's pretty obvious that daemons (and a few others) are beyond ridiculous with the number of Warp Charges they can get so I believe tournaments should agree to cap warp charges at 12 like in fantasy just for overall balance.

Try it out and see how you feel.

You have no idea what you are talking about, and what is your proof?

If you run the numbers, psychic powers are much worse in 7th edition than they were in 6th edition.

Not only that, but the more warp charges you get, the worse they become!

Ask your frontline buddies about how awesome it is to summon 90 daemons in 2 turns.

You mean about the game they essentially rigged entirely in favour of the Daemon army, in order to "prove" a pre-determined bias?

How about who was winning that game if there was a tournament time limit? I believe the Imperials were. A daemon army that is summoning that much will play so SLOW it will not finish games. Nor will it move enough in the 2-3 turns you do play to capture anything or kill anything...

gg game over for daemons



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Didn't Frankie say it was the longest game of 40k he had ever played?

 Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:

Didn't Frankie say it was the longest game of 40k he had ever played?

What, you mean like every first game played using slightly complicated new rules? OMG the horror.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
It's pretty obvious that daemons (and a few others) are beyond ridiculous with the number of Warp Charges they can get so I believe tournaments should agree to cap warp charges at 12 like in fantasy just for overall balance.

Try it out and see how you feel.

You have no idea what you are talking about, and what is your proof?

If you run the numbers, psychic powers are much worse in 7th edition than they were in 6th edition.

Not only that, but the more warp charges you get, the worse they become!

Ask your frontline buddies about how awesome it is to summon 90 daemons in 2 turns.

You mean the game where the demons had 36 casting dice and were still unable to win against a middle-of-the-road space marine army?