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 TheKbob wrote:
I like the folks defending the current nonsense. You can no enough about a game to smell bull crap. I have yet to see a battle report involving the new clown car do poorly. The only reason they would have remotely lost is because of the terrible new mission design of "person with the best first hand wins!" mode.

I say just limit the power dice thrown at any given spell. 6 max. Balances out the WC3 spells well, gives leeway for WC2, and WC1 doesn't care.

That should fix most of the problems.

You do realize this fixes almost nothing right. If I generate say 36 warp charges (to keep the math simple). 6 Castings throwing 6 dice at them net me 4 successful casts (3.9) on average (so summoning 40 new daemon models or whatever). If I up the dice to say 7 now I have 5 castings with 7 dice, which still on average only nets me 4 (actually a little less 3.8) if I throw 8 dice I get only 4 casts (and one with 4 dice if I want), those four casts net me about 3.4 successes, and the extra 1 on 4 dice another .31 so 3.7 casts. Limiting it to 5 dice gets 3.5 successes (with one warp charge left over), allowing 9 dice only gets 3.6 successful casts on average.

Now this assumes you have multiples of the same power to cast, but in a spam summoning build you likely will, but assuming you have enough multiples casting with 6 dice is actually the optimal cast for a WC 3 power.

What if you simply required the denial attempt to match the spell level independent of the number of successes. Still much easier to cast than block, still makes more psychic models = better psychic army, much more elegant than random numeric caps or power nerfs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Biggest problem really is that denial is pointless. Requiring an equal number of 6s to 4s is awful waffle. So those who are summoning with brotherhood or ignoring perils with ghost helms concentrate dice from psychic spam on models or units that don't care about consequences in order to guarantee extremely good powers.

Make denial based on the spell's target number and you solve 90% of the concerns in terms of how the meta can safely build. You can't build your entire army around fortune/invisible, for instance, if a psychic defense army can chuck twelve dice at one of them needing "only" 2 6s. The odds still heavily favor casting over blocking, but you effectively cap warp charge more elegantly and effectively without nerfing the psychic phase or psychic heavy armies in the process.

To be fair that was what I was hoping the actual rule was before I read the rulebook. Made sense to me. Another halfway that I discussed with Target was subtracting 6's from dispel from the successful 4's and then seeing if there were still enough successes. Both options have some merit along with the 5+ maximum deny if you get any of the bonuses metioned in the rulebook or FAQ's.

Any of those 3 options is far, far, far better than a cap on warp charges.

 Hulksmash wrote:
To be fair that was what I was hoping the actual rule was before I read the rulebook. Made sense to me. Another halfway that I discussed with Target was subtracting 6's from dispel from the successful 4's and then seeing if there were still enough successes. Both options have some merit along with the 5+ maximum deny if you get any of the bonuses metioned in the rulebook or FAQ's.

Any of those 3 options is far, far, far better than a cap on warp charges.

My problem with the subtract is that it's still unrealistic, ie I have fortune, invisible. I have 26+d6 warp charges, and roll a 2. I throw 14 @ each, netting let's say perils on both and the odds, 7 total successes each. Discard one charge each to ignore perils, netting 6 successes. An opponent needs to roll 30 dice at each on the odds of denying them down to a 1. Might as well not bother, because the whole point of this is avoiding a situation where you feel you'll get Psyker boned if you don't have 30+ warp charge.

Allowing bonuses to DTW vs Summon/Bless is similar OK but still capable of being dice spammed.

Feels very unintended for the whole point of having dozens of psykers to just be letting a random horror summon a bloodthirster or allowing farseers to throw 15 dice riskfree.

Either way is better than a cap, but starting to feel more strongly about simplicity and elegance with DTW the target number as the simple and effective possible rule change.

Honestly, they should have simply gone full WHFB magic system. It works and it would have been SO MUCH easier for everyone.

Now we're stuck with some sort of hybrid that's all over the place.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Honestly, they should have simply gone full WHFB magic system. It works and it would have been SO MUCH easier for everyone.

Now we're stuck with some sort of hybrid that's all over the place.

Totally disagree, fantasy is such a different game where movement and WS means a lot more to it then 40k, not to mention the game ending spells. If we didnt have a limit in fantasy i'd chuck 6 dice at misasma to reduce your intative, then purple sun you off the board. 40k does not have that. Nor do we have irrestiable or dispel scrolls.

There is not one offensive spell in 40k that is anywhere like a few of the number 6's, even the other spells (fireball, thunderbolt, infernal gateway etc etc) are so much more powerful then 40k.

It is frankly not a comparable system.

I dont personally think its an issue of how many WC you get. I think its an issue of the powers you can abuse with it! Making free guys is just dumb! We need to fix those powers more than the number of dice.

yeah, most people who have issues, just have issues with sommoning 60+ models a game.

cap the # of summoned models you can have at any one time,/

and we are done, problem solved. and problem solved without creating NEW problems and nerfing things that do not need it.

the only question should be how many models do we cap it at.

MVBrandt wrote:
What if you simply required the denial attempt to match the spell level independent of the number of successes. Still much easier to cast than block, still makes more psychic models = better psychic army, much more elegant than random numeric caps or power nerfs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Biggest problem really is that denial is pointless. Requiring an equal number of 6s to 4s is awful waffle. So those who are summoning with brotherhood or ignoring perils with ghost helms concentrate dice from psychic spam on models or units that don't care about consequences in order to guarantee extremely good powers.

Make denial based on the spell's target number and you solve 90% of the concerns in terms of how the meta can safely build. You can't build your entire army around fortune/invisible, for instance, if a psychic defense army can chuck twelve dice at one of them needing "only" 2 6s. The odds still heavily favor casting over blocking, but you effectively cap warp charge more elegantly and effectively without nerfing the psychic phase or psychic heavy armies in the process.

The issue with this as discussed elsewhere is it makes having multiples of the same power necessary, and makes WC 1 powers really easy to deny with no way to make them better. As such it increases the relative strength of primaris powers. Its not bad but it encourages spending way more dice on spell because you cannot afford to fail a crucial spell, if your opponent has enough dice to reliably deny it.

That said looking at the math I guess it is not too horrible (6 dice at a ML 1 power is about 66.5% to deny the power.).

I think the largest issue at that point I have is how much it hurts armies that use psychic powers as shooting. Especially a majority of shooting, but that was an issue last edition as well.

MarkyMark wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Honestly, they should have simply gone full WHFB magic system. It works and it would have been SO MUCH easier for everyone.

Now we're stuck with some sort of hybrid that's all over the place.

Totally disagree, fantasy is such a different game where movement and WS means a lot more to it then 40k, not to mention the game ending spells. If we didnt have a limit in fantasy i'd chuck 6 dice at misasma to reduce your intative, then purple sun you off the board. 40k does not have that. Nor do we have irrestiable or dispel scrolls.

There is not one offensive spell in 40k that is anywhere like a few of the number 6's, even the other spells (fireball, thunderbolt, infernal gateway etc etc) are so much more powerful then 40k.

It is frankly not a comparable system.

I was talking of the underlying system, not the spells related to it.

Maybe I'm biased as a Daemon player myself, but this yet against seems like just another "let's kick Daemon players in the nads again, because they're Daemon players and they don't deserve nice toys!"

I seem to recall back in 5th, when GK's could make it 100% impossible for us to even put a single model on the table, no one gave a rat's fart and just told us to, "suck it up because no one will play 60 strikes + 30 interceptors dumb***!"
Not even a whisper was spared for how complete awful a match-up it was, nor any mention of comp to help us out despite GK's being literally everywhere in events.

Then we got the frankly stupid WD rules that combined the best of both the 5th & 6th ed codices for three months, and the internet threw a massive tantrum and everyone called for Daemons to be nerfed into the ground because "we just broke the game."

Now we get a shiny toy in Malefic, and because of the potential for abuse, which only becomes heinously stupid if you allow massive proxying instead of simply enforcing the actual rules for said powers, suddenly we're the single worst thing to ever happen to 40k... again.



Sorry, but, suck it up buttercup!
Yes, we can summon, and some people may even have the 100-200+ models or 24+ Heralds/Greater Daemons to abuse it! (most however, won't - so if you allow 100+ proxies, than it's not GW's fault!)

There's plenty of tactics to get at the root of the problem, namely things like Drop Pods, Bikers, Termiecide w/Flamers, any barrage weapons, fast armies like Eldar/Dark Eldar, horde Orks, IG gunlines, Tau and their sheer amount of Ignores Cover shenanigans, etc...
So maybe Sisters are really screwed, but then we all know GW hates Sisters and won't support them - Ever!

Right now all this whinging about 'whaaaaa DoC broke 7th, whaaaaaa!' is frankly getting tiresome. We've taken it up the arse from everyone else, especially Grey Knights, so now it's our turn to have a fun toy that people can fear!


- Sincerely, a peeved-off Tzeentch player who's apparently TFG because "you're Daemons"

Experiment 626 wrote:
Maybe I'm biased as a Daemon player myself, but this yet against seems like just another "let's kick Daemon players in the nads again, because they're Daemon players and they don't deserve nice toys!"

I seem to recall back in 5th, when GK's could make it 100% impossible for us to even put a single model on the table, no one gave a rat's fart and just told us to, "suck it up because no one will play 60 strikes + 30 interceptors dumb***!"
Not even a whisper was spared for how complete awful a match-up it was, nor any mention of comp to help us out despite GK's being literally everywhere in events.

Then we got the frankly stupid WD rules that combined the best of both the 5th & 6th ed codices for three months, and the internet threw a massive tantrum and everyone called for Daemons to be nerfed into the ground because "we just broke the game."

Now we get a shiny toy in Malefic, and because of the potential for abuse, which only becomes heinously stupid if you allow massive proxying instead of simply enforcing the actual rules for said powers, suddenly we're the single worst thing to ever happen to 40k... again.

Sorry, but, suck it up buttercup!
Yes, we can summon, and some people may even have the 100-200+ models or 24+ Heralds/Greater Daemons to abuse it! (most however, won't - so if you allow 100+ proxies, than it's not GW's fault!)

There's plenty of tactics to get at the root of the problem, namely things like Drop Pods, Bikers, Termiecide w/Flamers, any barrage weapons, fast armies like Eldar/Dark Eldar, horde Orks, IG gunlines, Tau and their sheer amount of Ignores Cover shenanigans, etc...
So maybe Sisters are really screwed, but then we all know GW hates Sisters and won't support them - Ever!

Right now all this whinging about 'whaaaaa DoC broke 7th, whaaaaaa!' is frankly getting tiresome. We've taken it up the arse from everyone else, especially Grey Knights, so now it's our turn to have a fun toy that people can fear!


- Sincerely, a peeved-off Tzeentch player who's apparently TFG because "you're Daemons"

Or heavy forbid you are required to invest in.....ASSAULT UNITS. Dear god the horror......Seriously any sort of mobile army I am not seeing a significant problem right now.

This isn't against DoC in general because of them being DoC.

Summoning is overpowered by a vast amount and therefore needs to be toned down / addressed on a comp level.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Fateweaver, (who generates 8WC in 7e)
.

Wrong. He generates 4. Read his rules and stop spreading your lack of rules to every daemon thread.

Ravenous D wrote:It's pretty obvious that daemons (and a few others) are beyond ridiculous with the number of Warp Charges they can get so I believe tournaments should agree to cap warp charges at 12 like in fantasy just for overall balance.

Try it out and see how you feel.

Noone did this in Fantasy, If your whiny gaming group did great.

jy2 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I found that most of my pskyers where useless if I wanted to cast more powers even w/o a cap. But I need them for the WC

There will always be that discrepency if you bring a psychic-lite army.

Like if you run Tau against orks. Since Tau will outshoot orks like 1000 to 1, why don't we cap the number of shots Tau can take to 20 per turn then?

Agreed. We would need to set limits on every army and their strengths.

 Sigvatr wrote:
This isn't against DoC in general because of them being DoC.

Summoning is overpowered by a vast amount and therefore needs to be toned down / addressed on a comp level.

To be honest I can understand the anger of Experiment. Whenever we had a 100% chance of being tabled by turn 1, nobody cared, not even trying to comp to avoid that happening and it very much did occur with GK being as big as they were. Then, they just suddenly begin to complain with DoC being possibly OP.

I do agree that some limits need to come out at the least so that daemons can't force multiply summonings (I guess a good restriction would be daemons summoned can't summon more. It's more built so slow armies don't get hurt)

No cap on warp charges though.

Oh, I can fully understand her (her...iirc?) too. I started Necrons in 3rd and suffered through most of 5th. Felt going being good again. Never used flyers though...I was one of the like, idk, 5% that used to play for fluff

On the other hand, I am aiming, with the other guys, to create a competitive balance and summoning currently poses a high-priority problem.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Oh, I can fully understand her (her...iirc?) too. I started Necrons in 3rd and suffered through most of 5th. Felt going being good again. Never used flyers though...I was one of the like, idk, 5% that used to play for fluff

On the other hand, I am aiming, with the other guys, to create a competitive balance and summoning currently poses a high-priority problem.

Oh no, I understand where you are coming from. Honestly, I wish they'd just kept psykers to how they used to be. It'd make this... mess far easier but I doubt anybody wants to have to deal with trying to drag those back out

At this point, the biggest problems come down to denial where it takes so many dice to deny with certain armies being basically doomed (a few psykers means a psyker heavy army will cancel their spells and psykerless armies largely won't be able to do anything besides d6 measly deny rolls). The question becomes, how do we fix things? Overall, Psykers got nerfed drastically with a more risky spell phase and less spells casted per turn. At the same time, a cap will eradicate any will want to use Pink Horrors the way they were supposed to. The biggest concerns come down upon GK who lost much but also gained quite a bit and Chaos Daemons that can theoretically break the game by spawning. The specifics are summoning, brothers not usually suffering as much from perils, and denial rolls. How much, we still don't quite know yet. It seems to be a rock paper scissor list. Against a fast army, it likely will fail. The problem comes to slower armies though making them even less likely to appear. That's why I recommended summoned monsters cannot roll on Malefic personally because daemons summoning daemons to make a daemon factory that can exponentially grow and have a counter to every situation. It still makes it possible, but not nearly as likely to just go wild overtime. As per denials, that's another kettle. Give enemies to many denials and it makes the already sucky witchfire downright useless, do nothing and you give a disparity where armies with only a small few psykers can't pass any spells whilst psyker heavy armies can cast their spells with little to no difficulty.

So then, I must ask. What 2++ saves do we have out in the game? I vaguely remember a staff for GK giving that in CC and, of course, the 4++ spell + the grimoire but what else is there like that?

Since no one wants to talk soft score comp (which would solve every major gripe people are having with the new edition), I would like to throw my lot in with Exp626. I played GKs and I thought warp quake was beyond stupid.

But my earlier experience was more about the love showered on the Cheese Wolves. Jaws of the Broken Wolf made several of my and my wife's armies completely unplayable when that book hit. Ork Power Claw nob? Suck it noob! Tyranid MC list? Smoke a fat one! Necrons? Lets just snipe that orb guy out of there with my 2 casts of Jaws. And if you do make it into combat with anything, my underpriced Grey Hunters will still outfight you, after shooting you to ribbons on the way in. And then GK came out and made multiwound model armies irrelevant on top of all that.

No one said squat about it, or leafblower, or GKs. Xenos players have been taking it in the poop chute for years with nary a whisper of concern, but all of a sudden the meta shifts and puts Taudar and Demon 2++ hijinks on top and its a game destroying crisis?

Not feeling very compelled to be sympathetic, even though there may be some merit to the argument.....

To be technical Tau were once broken and Eldar consistently get god mode codices

I played a game with my buddy. We both brought the uberest cheese 2500 point list we could conceivably conceive. To generate my warp points I brought 11 ML of stuff. Stuff like a hive tyrant, a furioso libby, a couple warlocks and a farseer. He brought some sorcerers to give him I think 8 ML. Somehow every turn on his psychic phase he rolled a 3, putting my warp charges at 14 and his at 11.
His first turn, first game in 7e ever, he rolled 6 dice to get a summoning off. Woo! He made the roll! But periled. I then threw 8 dice and denied his summoning.

Because Im not too familiar with psyker stuff (Even though my favorite army is Eldar) I had my libby dread teleport (gate of infinity) into his back field, he failed to deny. That was literally all I bothered to use my warp charges on at that turn.

His next turn (game turn 2) He successfully summoned daemonettes and periled, which scattered and got put into ongoing reserves. Game turn 3 he was able to possess into a fateweaver. His daemonettes? Scattered again and I put them into the far back corner where they did nothing the whole game.
I dont even think his fateweaver (maybe it was a bloodthirster) managed to damage anything, I didnt bother to shoot at it and I wasnt afraid of it assaulting me because he was flying.

Capping warp charges? Why bother? It sounds scary but ill be back here tuesday, got another cheese game to play at 3000 points. Im bringing a bunch of inquisitors and spiritseers and psykers. Im 1985 points in and I have a total of 15 ML. Subtracting the 2 full dev flakka squads, the pimped out landraider, the dakkajet, escort termie squad, lootas etc, those 15 WCs only cost about 840 points.

After turn 1, I felt at no time during my game with my friend that Id be overrun at all by daemons.

No offence above post but your "cheese" list sucks, this is a cheese list

16 farseers, eldrad.
53 warp charges a turn, laughs at perils, will absolutely have any power it thinks it may need.

My mate did the following, fortune, invisibility, prescience, then summoned stupid amounts of deamonettes.

That's how you create a cheese list and abuse the New system, next game he plans on putting them all on jetbikes with singing spears.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Oh, I can fully understand her (her...iirc?) too. I started Necrons in 3rd and suffered through most of 5th. Felt going being good again. Never used flyers though...I was one of the like, idk, 5% that used to play for fluff

On the other hand, I am aiming, with the other guys, to create a competitive balance and summoning currently poses a high-priority problem.

Yes, her!lol.


Apologies if my rant came off as too harsh, it is a very frustrating time for DoC players especially right now as alongside Eldar, we seem to be the only targets of the so-called "Summonig just broken 40k" hysteria.
My recent attempt to get in a game of the new rules didn't help much either, as the first comment from any potential opponent at the LGS last night was a steadfast "I'll only play if you agree to no Malefic allowed, because it's OP & breaks the game." (and here I was looking forwards to running a Malefic Tzherald w/Greater Locus - yes the D6 strength ability + 18 Horrors w/full command.)

Honestly I'm personally in the "let's wait and see" camp.
I agree that anyone who's purely gaming the system to farm maximum WC's in order to flood the table with essentially 'free' units & large monsters is terrible, just as the WD update that made Flamers & Screamers into Lv4 Super Saiyans was stupid!

However, I don't think it will actually be the huge problem the internets especially are blowing it up to be...
Tournaments will be regulated by both strict WYSIWYG rules, meaning a player has to physically own those 100+ Lessers & dozen or more Heralds/Greaters. (on top of carting about their starting 1500-1850pts army - hope you've got a suitcase big enough for that!) As well as likely limits on 1 Primary Detachment + 1 additional source, which will limit the availability of super cheap Mastery Lv3's.
Plus time constraints will make it incredibly difficult to get much beyond Turn 4 - meaning the DoC player only has effectively 2 turns to grab Objectives/VP's. And if Kill Points are heavily used by any event as a secondary objective, well, Tzeentch Clown Car is just handing out VP's to opponents like candy!
Then there's the fact that to actively dominate the Tourney scene, the Clown Car list has to be able to avoid it's many, many horrible match-ups. And let's face it, anything with alpha-strike ability, or high speed, or plenty of barrage/ignores cover weaponry will have a field day! In order to actively avoid more than 1-2 bad match-ups, the DoC player will have to be shoving a world-record setting number of horseshoes up their arse!

Non-Tournament play will simply be regulated the way it always has, by simply refusing to allow mass proxying & stand-ins for summon spamming, and/or ignoring TFG and his ego.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Tournaments will be regulated by both strict WYSIWYG rules, meaning a player has to physically own those 100+ Lessers & dozen or more Heralds/Greaters. (on top of carting about their starting 1500-1850pts army - hope you've got a suitcase big enough for that!)

Since even gw's only requirement is it must be based on a GW model or be made up of at least 50% GW parts and WYSIWYG and all daemons have next to no wargear this is not a problem. That's at official GW tournies(which is none in the US).

Daemons have always been one of the most converted and "counts as" army there and they all fall in line with what GW set up as acceptable.

If you buy build and paint the models I will play you with no problems. I think the force org needs to be limited, but it is too soon to see how the daemon army will fare against 7th edition armys instead of 6th edition armies.

 Tyrius wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Tournaments will be regulated by both strict WYSIWYG rules, meaning a player has to physically own those 100+ Lessers & dozen or more Heralds/Greaters. (on top of carting about their starting 1500-1850pts army - hope you've got a suitcase big enough for that!)

Since even gw's only requirement is it must be based on a GW model or be made up of at least 50% GW parts and WYSIWYG and all daemons have next to no wargear this is not a problem. That's at official GW tournies(which is none in the US).

Daemons have always been one of the most converted and "counts as" army there and they all fall in line with what GW set up as acceptable.

Which is true but, you still need different models to represent different things, and they cannot be unconverted space marines or guardsman.

As I said multiple times, heralds are very expensive and them along with horrors are extremely fragile (T3 5++). Use the other powerful thing in 7th edition, barrage, TFCs/Biovores/Wyverns etc all will pour wounds and kill them really quickly, and you can't avoid barrage under a roof anymore.

This edition is about mobility/MSU, a really all out summoning army won't have much offense for 1-2 turns. Pod armies, scouting armies, fast armies aka alpha striking armies will utterly decimate a full psychic summoning demon list.

And/or just throw a walker at them, there isn't much demons have to clear AV13 walkers easily.

Bringing down a herald or two early, or bringing horror units down a warp charge ( 15 horrors to 9 horrors -> 1 ML instead of 3), drastically reduces their power levels. With way less psykers and mastery levels, their chance at failing Malefic and/or risking perils increases a lot.

Unless they're having Godly dices, they're not gonna spawn 500 points on Turn 1.

OR, treat it as if you were fighting the old Tervigon-birthing spam army.

 Tyrius wrote:
Since even gw's only requirement is it must be based on a GW model or be made up of at least 50% GW parts and WYSIWYG and all daemons have next to no wargear this is not a problem. That's at official GW tournies(which is none in the US).

Daemons have always been one of the most converted and "counts as" army there and they all fall in line with what GW set up as acceptable.

There's a difference between "lovingly themed and converted army of daemons made to look like other fantastical creatures" and "a pile of Guardsmen". The former is cool converting and in the spirit of the game; the latter is proxying and shouldn't be allowed in tournaments that are enforcing WYSIWYG (unless the pile of Guardsmen has been painted in a ghostly fashion!)

I do agree that for 90% of people, the problems inherent in putting together the spare models required for true Daemon Spam will be daunting. Even if your local events don't require painting and allow you to just field partially-assembled daemons stuck to bases, you're still talking $30 a box at MSRP. That will probably be sufficient for most cases. The issue is that at major events, you very often do have players who have the disposable income to buy the models (and the spare time to paint them) or a large pool of friends to borrow additional daemons from. So, the "pay to play" boundary won't really exist at those points, which is what the discussion is about I think.

Capping warp charges does nothing to fix invisibility, and it actually makes many invisibility focused lists more of a problem in the meta. Once warp charge and dispel dice are limited to 12 the lists that have 12 attempts at invisibility or a guaranteed single invisibility can easily get their invisibility off without having to worry about running into a list that has a huge dispel pool..

Experiment 626 wrote:
Maybe I'm biased as a Daemon player myself, but this yet against seems like just another "let's kick Daemon players in the nads again, because they're Daemon players and they don't deserve nice toys!"

I seem to recall back in 5th, when GK's could make it 100% impossible for us to even put a single model on the table, no one gave a rat's fart and just told us to, "suck it up because no one will play 60 strikes + 30 interceptors dumb***!"
Not even a whisper was spared for how complete awful a match-up it was, nor any mention of comp to help us out despite GK's being literally everywhere in events.

Then we got the frankly stupid WD rules that combined the best of both the 5th & 6th ed codices for three months, and the internet threw a massive tantrum and everyone called for Daemons to be nerfed into the ground because "we just broke the game."

Now we get a shiny toy in Malefic, and because of the potential for abuse, which only becomes heinously stupid if you allow massive proxying instead of simply enforcing the actual rules for said powers, suddenly we're the single worst thing to ever happen to 40k... again.



Sorry, but, suck it up buttercup!
Yes, we can summon, and some people may even have the 100-200+ models or 24+ Heralds/Greater Daemons to abuse it! (most however, won't - so if you allow 100+ proxies, than it's not GW's fault!)

There's plenty of tactics to get at the root of the problem, namely things like Drop Pods, Bikers, Termiecide w/Flamers, any barrage weapons, fast armies like Eldar/Dark Eldar, horde Orks, IG gunlines, Tau and their sheer amount of Ignores Cover shenanigans, etc...
So maybe Sisters are really screwed, but then we all know GW hates Sisters and won't support them - Ever!

Right now all this whinging about 'whaaaaa DoC broke 7th, whaaaaaa!' is frankly getting tiresome. We've taken it up the arse from everyone else, especially Grey Knights, so now it's our turn to have a fun toy that people can fear!


- Sincerely, a peeved-off Tzeentch player who's apparently TFG because "you're Daemons"

Sorry no, the answer is not disallowing proxy, since proxying just allows you to represent models you don't own, not add potentially thousands of points to your side in reinforcements. If you think any self respecting tournament organizer would go ahead with the summoning as is, well your delusional. Also good luck running a summon heavy list, proxy or no, and getting a second game with that person.

You really need to play some games of 7th edition before saying that you need to cap warp charges.

I played a 1500 point game today against a 9 WC demon army with my 10 WC Grey Knight army and I struggled to get any powers off.

In 6th edition I was casting powers like crazy in both player turns. This edition I was failing to cast prescience on 5d6 twice, and struggled to cast very many powers. That meant no hammerhands all around like 6th, and even Force was taking up a big chunk of WCs.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
No offence above post but your "cheese" list sucks, this is a cheese list

16 farseers, eldrad.
53 warp charges a turn, laughs at perils, will absolutely have any power it thinks it may need.

My mate did the following, fortune, invisibility, prescience, then summoned stupid amounts of deamonettes.

That's how you create a cheese list and abuse the New system, next game he plans on putting them all on jetbikes with singing spears.

That is not a reason for capping WC, but for fixing the FOC. If you just take a detachment with an ally you are not getting that many WCs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Capping warp charges does nothing to fix invisibility, and it actually makes many invisibility focused lists more of a problem in the meta. Once warp charge and dispel dice are limited to 12 the lists that have 12 attempts at invisibility or a guaranteed single invisibility can easily get their invisibility off without having to worry about running into a list that has a huge dispel pool..

We both had invisibility and I did not think that it was that big of a deal. Whichever unit had it cast on them I just ignored. In fact I am starting to like it because it is a deathstar neutralizer.