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At the same time, though, a cap will hurt armies that rely on powers.

Daemons, especially Tzeentch, require high warpcharges for nearly 100% of their shooting.

If you cap warp charges then you can not go to a tournament thinking you can use an army that requires psychic powers as a small number of warp charge dice will shut you down.

Bye bye daemons...

by that logic, we should implement rolls known as "shooting charges" and cap them at 12...

all you tau and eldar and IG players can roll them as you want, stack them as you want, but only 12 shooting charges.

to shoot with each unit, first roll 1 or more shooting carges, and 4+ lets you shoot, while double 6's makes you shoot yourself with no saves allowed. also, your opponent can roll a dice and dispel your shots on a 6+, but must dispel each shooting charge you suceeded on harnessing.


there... fair right?

why should I bring an asault army, expecting it to do well, when I can just run into armies with 100+ shooting dice per turn who just SHUT ME DOWN in the shooting phase?


and yes, that is exactly the same comparison, if you pay pts to DOMINATE a phase, good for you, there are ways to pay points to dominate literally, every single phase in the game.

you paid your points you get the benifits.

people moan about how 40k is unbalanced, and only uber shooty armies do well like eldar and tau...

then they buff those armies again, and nerf all the psyker armies...
real smart...
great way to alienate every demon or GK, and soon every ork player, ever.

this is not fantasy... what may have worked for fantasy does not work for us in this case... you might as well say "AP is unfair, do the modifyer system and implement 1+ and better saves"

fantasy does not have 100-300+ dice rolled each shooting phase, plus large blasts, D weapons, APOC templates, super heavies, tanks, marker lights, ever living and we will be back armies that come back on 4/5+ with NOTHING you can do about, super heavy walkers and so on.

bodazoka wrote:
I don't think people want capped dice because of Summoning though?

I think it is so they can reliably build a list with there 1-2-3 psykers that can fairly reliably cast the powers that they want to buff there army and make it more efficient?

If you do not cap warp charges you then you can not go to a tournament thinking you can base an army around a psycic spell as you might come across a 30+ warp charge army that will shut you down.

If you don't cap Markerlights, then you can't go to a tournament with Nurgle Daemons, or an ADL, because all your cover saves will disappear.
If you don't cap MSS, then you can't go to a tournament with a Paladin Death Star, because your cool characters will just hit themselves.

The point of the new psychic phase is to make Psychic stuff EVEN MORE UNRELIABLE than before (and with power generation in 6e, it was already pretty unreliable). Basing your army on anything psychic is a fairly bad idea...as such, perhaps you deserve to lose at a tournament, since your strategy is tactically unsound!
Any player that brings anything to a battle has to realise that he might come up against an opponent who renders his particular tactic useless. Grey Knights with Warpquake, for example, shut down Drop Pod armies pretty hard, and were just plain unfair to 5e Daemonic Assault. Does that deserve a nerf? No! Because some things about the game are just tough. Suck it up, adapt on the fly, and try to beat your opponent. That's how war is.

bodazoka wrote:
If you do not cap warp charges you then you can not go to a tournament thinking you can base an army around a psycic spell as you might come across a 30+ warp charge army that will shut you down.

This may be giving GW too much credit, but it's almost as if the psychic phase was designed to counter deathstars that relied on psychic powers. If my opponent fishes for Invis or Fortune, I (a Tzeentch Daemon player) might be able to shut it down if I devote all of my dice to doing so. It's all part of the meta.

bodazoka wrote:
I don't think people want capped dice because of Summoning though?

I think it is so they can reliably build a list with there 1-2-3 psykers that can fairly reliably cast the powers that they want to buff there army and make it more efficient?

If you do not cap warp charges you then you can not go to a tournament thinking you can base an army around a psycic spell as you might come across a 30+ warp charge army that will shut you down.

You should not have the expectation that you are entitled to bring a single Primaris Psyker with your AM army and get to cast Prescience on your blob guard squad just because you want to. You'd be better off playing to your own strengths.

For those of you using the "Well cap shooting then" argument, you do realize that comp essentially does that right?

Take Da boyz GT for example, they have a cap of 4 dedicated transports that shuts down serpent spam from getting ridiculous. They also have a rule where anything that isn't troops (or dedicated transports) has a 0-2 limit to prevent lame ass spamming.

So having Belakor and 3 biomancy nurgle princes backed up with screamers all getting 2+ (some rerollable) saves and has a total of 12 warp charges is fine. Adding in a bajillion heralds and summoning LoCs and more tzeentch heralds and the game gets dumb.

That's what capping is about, stop dumb stuff.

So needing more than 12 warp charges to shoot with my army is dumb, even though if I had all my Warp Charges it equates to a small number of shots when compared to Tau, hell or even Shooty-Build Space Marines, who have no such cap.

Yep, makes perfect sense

 Ravenous D wrote:
For those of you using the "Well cap shooting then" argument, you do realize that comp essentially does that right?

Take Da boyz GT for example, they have a cap of 4 dedicated transports that shuts down serpent spam from getting ridiculous. They also have a rule where anything that isn't troops (or dedicated transports) has a 0-2 limit to prevent lame ass spamming.

So having Belakor and 3 biomancy nurgle princes backed up with screamers all getting 2+ (some rerollable) saves and has a total of 12 warp charges is fine. Adding in a bajillion heralds and summoning LoCs and more tzeentch heralds and the game gets dumb.

That's what capping is about, stop dumb stuff.

But that is not what it does, DA boyz is capping units, and even that doesn't tone down shooting possibilities. So I only get 2 broadside teams of 4 wave serpents etc... And how is 2+ save everything ok to you and say 6 full orrow squads not?

HHS issue is in one case you are capping units, which I'm more ok with, rather than capping a phase. There is a large difference between saying broadside teams are 0-2 and saying you can only have say 30 shots total in your army. If you want to stop dumb stuff stop dumb stuff. Limit like only two units rolling on daemonology per army or something.. A cap on charges =\= a limit on summoning! it limits everything one might want to do in that phase. Also consider your daemon list has 12+ d6 so if the limit is 12 then they never get the d6. Furthermore , that list will likely run horrors to power up their princes etc.

Why doesn't everyone just take all the rules put them in a blender and pull out the bits they like? Or you could just deal with what is on the page and play the game.

Some times you win and some times you lose. I suffered through the Eldar 2+ rerollable cover saves and the Screamstar crap. This is just the next bit of cheese. If you play in a tournament then bring your best list because the guy next to you will.

I play because I like the game and the army I play. GW has made the rules and I follow them, if you don't like the rules play another game or make up your own. If you're going to play at a competitive level then play the rules in the book. I can't go onto the football field and say "I don't like that rule, please change it so I can play a fair game."

NUT UP AND SHUT UP!

 Ravenous D wrote:
For those of you using the "Well cap shooting then" argument, you do realize that comp essentially does that right?

Take Da boyz GT for example, they have a cap of 4 dedicated transports that shuts down serpent spam from getting ridiculous. They also have a rule where anything that isn't troops (or dedicated transports) has a 0-2 limit to prevent lame ass spamming.

So having Belakor and 3 biomancy nurgle princes backed up with screamers all getting 2+ (some rerollable) saves and has a total of 12 warp charges is fine. Adding in a bajillion heralds and summoning LoCs and more tzeentch heralds and the game gets dumb.

That's what capping is about, stop dumb stuff.

1. Capping non-Troops to 0-2 per unit, or Dedicated Transports to 0-4 does absolutely nothing to supposedly "cap shooting."
An Eldar army doesn't get any less obnoxious just because it's limited to only 4 Wave Serpents, as those pts not spent on the other 2 will simply go into other solid options like Warp Spiders or War Walkers or whatever.
Capping Warp Charges at 12 on the other hand means Tzeentch Daemons gets 100% kicked in the nads as now it can't shoot more than 6-8D6 shots at average BS. (and if it's shooting, it's not casting any augments like Prescience or Cursed Earth when you only have limited charges)

2. There's no way to run Belakor + 3 Bio Princes + Screamers and have ALL of them with 2+ saves.


And for the record, Screamerstar & Jetseerstar are dead ducks. You don't need a Warp Charge cap to stop them as they can no longer last turn mass deny Objectives, nor do they have nearly the same Psychic dominance due to the overall changes to that phase.

If you think Malefic is broken, I can't wait to hear the whine fests once people realise what Santic is going to do!

MSRC27 wrote:
Why doesn't everyone just take all the rules put them in a blender and pull out the bits they like? Or you could just deal with what is on the page and play the game.

Some times you win and some times you lose. I suffered through the Eldar 2+ rerollable cover saves and the Screamstar crap. This is just the next bit of cheese. If you play in a tournament then bring your best list because the guy next to you will.

I play because I like the game and the army I play. GW has made the rules and I follow them, if you don't like the rules play another game or make up your own. If you're going to play at a competitive level then play the rules in the book. I can't go onto the football field and say "I don't like that rule, please change it so I can play a fair game."

NUT UP AND SHUT UP!

Fundamentally, Warhammer 40k is not a balanced game with a tight rule set. The rule book itself repeatedly talks about 'forging a narrative' and implies that opponents should attempt to come up with cool stories and discuss beforehand what models to field in order to create cinematic scenarios.
This lack of concern for balance and rules is made abundantly clear around the turn of an edition: multiple glaring rules questions go unanswered, or answers are even removed as the 'FAQs' get updated. Changes to the rules - eg, stopping FMC from assaulting the same turn they change flight mode in 7E, or changing Valkyries to Flyers in 6E - drastically changes the relative worth of those units without changes in points costs and without updates for years afterwards.

Despite this, a large number of players want to play 40k as a competitive game, where two players can be pit against each other without ever having spoken before, and the best general walks away with a trophy.

So it becomes immediately clear that if you want to play an unbalanced game competitively, you need to change something to make it balanced. The problem is that without a central undeniable authority to take GW's place, we're instead stuck on forums debating about what may or may not be overpowered, and the only effective authority is the TO. And this creates its own issues, because different TOs will have different rulings, and so what may be considered a legal/balanced army in one venue is not allowed in another. No-one trusts GW's rules, but at least they are 'final', 'objective' and can't be argued with - unlike a TO.