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I still think letting a unit only benefit from 1 blessing at a time, or making all blessings and conjuring/summonings one use (for everyone who knows them) simply and elegantly solves both problems.

IF the FOC is limited, most armies cannot reliably spam WC without hurting themselves in other ways.

My Eldar, for example, can cast FAR less powers these days then they could in 6th and I am investing about ~200 more points into Psyker power.

Without double FOC the most WC you'll really see in any Eldar list should be 16-17, 10 Warlocks + 2 Farseers (or Eldrad). That isn't exceedingly powerful and requires a large amount of points to pull off.

Daemons can spam WC, but also have to invest a bunch of points in Psykers and thus they lose out on being able to take a wide variety of units.

Making it easier to DTW will make Psykers all but useless, IMO. Even with 10 WC + D6, i'm struggling to cast 2-4 blessings a turn. I'd be a bit miffed it that fell even further to 1-2 powers a turn. There'd be absolutely no reason for me to take any Farseers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobukia wrote:
I still think letting a unit only benefit from 1 blessing at a time, or making all blessings and conjuring/summonings one use (for everyone who knows them) simply and elegantly solves both problems.

What an awful idea, why on earth would anyone want to invest 100+ points into any Psykers if they are one use only (not to mention that one use is hardly guaranteed)?

All this psyker spam sounds like it will result in a gimmick army. They have too many hard counters to some decent TAC lists and are too dice dependent to really be power houses IMO to consistently win games.

 Formosa wrote:
No offence above post but your "cheese" list sucks, this is a cheese list

16 farseers, eldrad.
53 warp charges a turn, laughs at perils, will absolutely have any power it thinks it may need.

My mate did the following, fortune, invisibility, prescience, then summoned stupid amounts of deamonettes.

That's how you create a cheese list and abuse the New system, next game he plans on putting them all on jetbikes with singing spears.

Lol Formosa good hearing from you!

Well the rest of my list was just crap as filler, like 18 wave serpents. He brought 3 nightscythes and a heldrake ya know.

Im still not impressed with daemonic powers being OP. To me its the new shiny thing. Itd be kinda cool if new powers were added every once in a while to keep things unbalanced. My list for tuesdays game is going to have a couple wyvrens thown in. Some of the inquisitors im bringing are going to do two things: Bring cheap warp charge points to the table, and throw out conversion beamer shots from afar. Same deal with the 2 seven psyker battle squad henchmen dudes. Throw out str10 ap 1 blasts.
Devastators and warwalkers with flakkadakka missiles and scatter lasers to handle flyers and infantry. A couple wyvrens to handle infantry and summons.
30 warp spiders to jump across the board and snipe my opponents daemon summons.
A wave serpent and wraithguard to handle toughies or squishies. Still got 80 points left over.

 Phazael wrote:
But my earlier experience was more about the love showered on the Cheese Wolves. Jaws of the Broken Wolf made several of my and my wife's armies completely unplayable when that book hit. Ork Power Claw nob? Suck it noob! Tyranid MC list? Smoke a fat one! Necrons? Lets just snipe that orb guy out of there with my 2 casts of Jaws. And if you do make it into combat with anything, my underpriced Grey Hunters will still outfight you, after shooting you to ribbons on the way in. And then GK came out and made multiwound model armies irrelevant on top of all that.

No one said squat about it, or leafblower, or GKs. Xenos players have been taking it in the poop chute for years with nary a whisper of concern, but all of a sudden the meta shifts and puts Taudar and Demon 2++ hijinks on top and its a game destroying crisis?

Not feeling very compelled to be sympathetic, even though there may be some merit to the argument.....

It's not just Xenos. Try getting anyone to listen to your complaints in 5th as a Black Templars player without getting "oh, but you can Codex hop!" or some variation thereof as a result.

Xenos armies have dominated 6th edition and dominated 4th edition, so you'll have to excuse me if I, in turn, find it hard to generate any sympathies back...

 Lobukia wrote:
I still think letting a unit only benefit from 1 blessing at a time, or making all blessings and conjuring/summonings one use (for everyone who knows them) simply and elegantly solves both problems.

When I see posting like this I realize that people have no idea what they are talking about, or have any idea of what is unbalanced.

To give you an example, let's take the Tau commander. Do you know how many "blessings" or abilities that he can give to unit? (I will give you a hint, it is a lot) Not only that, but they work 100% of the time and are dirt cheap in comparison.

Command and Control Node: Re-Roll failed To-Hit rolls
Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite: Ignore Cover

You get both of those for only 35 points. Unlike psychic powers they can't be stopped, you will not suffer PotW, and they will go off 100% of the time.

For a psycher to get those abilities they will need to get Prescience and Perfect timing. Prescience is easy to get, but Perfect Timing will need to be rolled on the Divination table so even if you want it, you might end up with a horrible power like Misfortune. Not only that, but to get them off with an 88% chance of success (for each power) you need to use 9 Warp Charges. That is basically the output of 2 ML 3 psychers (you can drop down to 6 WCs, but then each has less than a 75% chance to go off).

I did that without even having to bring up the Puretide Engram Neurochip: (Your choice of Counter-attack, Furious Charge, Monster Hunter, Stubborn, Tank Hunter.)

You all want to play at amateur rules writer, but you have no idea about balance and how armies work. Here is a news flash for you guys: psychic powers are not free! You pay a lot of points for them so they better be doing something.

In a few months people will realize that psychic powers are unreliable, cost a ton of points, and are generally not worth it. Until then we have to suffer through all of these posts.

I tend to agree with Blackmoor's post. Capping one's access to a phase of the game because it's "unbalanced" in the current state of 40k is the wrong way to go about things.

Though that post would have greatly benefited from a "Get off my lawn" to finish it.

I could see forbidding conjured units from generating powers from Maelific to stop geometric summoning progressionsc, but capping the psychic phase in any other way is just marine specific butthurt, much like the wailing about fliers that people had when the last edition hit.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I still think letting a unit only benefit from 1 blessing at a time, or making all blessings and conjuring/summonings one use (for everyone who knows them) simply and elegantly solves both problems.

When I see posting like this I realize that people have no idea what they are talking about, or have any idea of what is unbalanced.

To give you an example, let's take the Tau commander. Do you know how many "blessings" or abilities that he can give to unit? (I will give you a hint, it is a lot) Not only that, but they work 100% of the time and are dirt cheap in comparison.

Command and Control Node: Re-Roll failed To-Hit rolls
Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite: Ignore Cover

You get both of those for only 35 points. Unlike psychic powers they can't be stopped, you will not suffer PotW, and they will go off 100% of the time.

For a psycher to get those abilities they will need to get Prescience and Perfect timing. Prescience is easy to get, but Perfect Timing will need to be rolled on the Divination table so even if you want it, you might end up with a horrible power like Misfortune. Not only that, but to get them off with an 88% chance of success (for each power) you need to use 9 Warp Charges. That is basically the output of 2 ML 3 psychers (you can drop down to 6 WCs, but then each has less than a 75% chance to go off).

I did that without even having to bring up the Puretide Engram Neurochip: (Your choice of Counter-attack, Furious Charge, Monster Hunter, Stubborn, Tank Hunter.)

You all want to play at amateur rules writer, but you have no idea about balance and how armies work. Here is a news flash for you guys: psychic powers are not free! You pay a lot of points for them so they better be doing something.

In a few months people will realize that psychic powers are unreliable, cost a ton of points, and are generally not worth it. Until then we have to suffer through all of these posts.

Is it worth mentioning that Tau don't have any psykers?

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I still think letting a unit only benefit from 1 blessing at a time, or making all blessings and conjuring/summonings one use (for everyone who knows them) simply and elegantly solves both problems.

When I see posting like this I realize that people have no idea what they are talking about, or have any idea of what is unbalanced.

To give you an example, let's take the Tau commander. Do you know how many "blessings" or abilities that he can give to unit? (I will give you a hint, it is a lot) Not only that, but they work 100% of the time and are dirt cheap in comparison.

Command and Control Node: Re-Roll failed To-Hit rolls
Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite: Ignore Cover

You get both of those for only 35 points. Unlike psychic powers they can't be stopped, you will not suffer PotW, and they will go off 100% of the time.

For a psycher to get those abilities they will need to get Prescience and Perfect timing. Prescience is easy to get, but Perfect Timing will need to be rolled on the Divination table so even if you want it, you might end up with a horrible power like Misfortune. Not only that, but to get them off with an 88% chance of success (for each power) you need to use 9 Warp Charges. That is basically the output of 2 ML 3 psychers (you can drop down to 6 WCs, but then each has less than a 75% chance to go off).

I did that without even having to bring up the Puretide Engram Neurochip: (Your choice of Counter-attack, Furious Charge, Monster Hunter, Stubborn, Tank Hunter.)

You all want to play at amateur rules writer, but you have no idea about balance and how armies work. Here is a news flash for you guys: psychic powers are not free! You pay a lot of points for them so they better be doing something.

In a few months people will realize that psychic powers are unreliable, cost a ton of points, and are generally not worth it. Until then we have to suffer through all of these posts.

Is it worth mentioning that Tau don't have any psykers?

So what? Daemons don't really have a Shooting phase.

Maybe we should cap the amount of shooting the Tau player can attempt because it's totally not fair for me to sit back and just watch my Tau opponent roll handfuls of dice in a phase I don't ever get much of a chance to participate in.
And come to think of it, Tau & IG/AM don't really have an Assault phase, so I guess we should talk about capping the amount of assault those OP Orks, Daemons, Khornate armies, etc... can make too, because it's unfair to Tau/IG players who "can't compete."

Or maybe we can do something really novel, such as play some 7th edition and stop the fear-mongering knee-jerking "fixes" to a system that's barely 1 entire ****ing week old!

Experiment 626 wrote:
Or maybe we can do something really novel, such as play some 7th edition and stop the fear-mongering knee-jerking "fixes" to a system that's barely 1 entire ****ing week old!

Perhaps that would be a better use of our time. Now when you say 7th edition, do you mean the whole "bring whatever you want" thing or like, will there be limitations? If you're experiencing difficulties with a portion of your collection, should you bring more of your collection?

Are accusations of fear mongering and knee jerking working out for you?

 Crablezworth wrote:

Is it worth mentioning that Tau don't have any psykers?

That is exactly my point. Some armies buff themselves by just buying abilities, and others have to do it through the psychic phase.

Why are there people who want to cap what some armies can do, but not what others can do just because of the mechanics of how they do it?

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Is it worth mentioning that Tau don't have any psykers?

That is exactly my point. Some armies buff themselves by just buying abilities, and others have to do it through the psychic phase.

Why are there people who want to cap what some armies can do, but not what others can do just because of the mechanics of how they do it?

It shouldn't matter, just bring other toys from your collection maybe your daemons just need tau allies no? I'm starting to think you're not forging a narrative bro

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Is it worth mentioning that Tau don't have any psykers?

That is exactly my point. Some armies buff themselves by just buying abilities, and others have to do it through the psychic phase.

Why are there people who want to cap what some armies can do, but not what others can do just because of the mechanics of how they do it?

Because there's no hate quite like Daemon hate.

Marine butthurt is the driving force behind all nerfs in 40k. It has been for years.

 Phazael wrote:
Marine butthurt is the driving force behind all nerfs in 40k. It has been for years.

I guess that makes their special rule "And Shall Know No Fairness!"

Makes better sense that way, since they apparently show a lot of fear towards everyone else!

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

Is it worth mentioning that Tau don't have any psykers?

That is exactly my point. Some armies buff themselves by just buying abilities, and others have to do it through the psychic phase.

Why are there people who want to cap what some armies can do, but not what others can do just because of the mechanics of how they do it?

THANK YOU!

Imperial Guard do the same thing through orders, they can receive Tank/Monster hunter, Ignores Cover, etc.

Psychic Powers are so incredibly unreliable in 7th. So far in my games (only played 4), i've had rotten luck with powers and rarely get off more than 3 a turn (I take Eldrad, Farseer w/ Stones, 2 Warlocks). Now I have bloated my list with ~400 points worth of Psykers that do about half of what they did in 6th. I'm starting to feel like the entire phase is a waste of my time, due to its unreliability.

Limit the FOC and you'll curb most of the psychic BS. Daemons can keep their 20 warp charge armies, they have nothing else they are particularly good at.

 LValx wrote:
Limit the FOC and you'll curb most of the psychic BS.

Agreed, limit the foc.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Limit the FOC and you'll curb most of the psychic BS.

Agreed, limit the foc.

Which is what was given as part of this edition for most casual gaming and definately in tournaments.

No reason to cap warp charges IMO or really mess with the phase at all.

So one question, are you capping tau or AM firepower ? If your answer is no, let this crap die already

Yeah capping warp charges is a knee jerk reaction,

to nerf ONE build that isnt that scary,

and also nerf every other pysker, and basically make GK a worthless auto pass over army...

why some people feel its ok to nerf certain armies, but leave tau and eldar totally alone with their shooting spam is just unfair.

Im unfortunately already seeing tournaments put 12 WC caps in place, but still have things like full on WS riptide flyer spam and imperial knights as a legal army... because str d apoc exlosions if I just happen to get lucky and take out one knight are fair because they just blow up my whole army,

but heaven forbid less then half my GKs even get the piss poor 50% chance to get hammer hand off...

If you are not I would like to complain about all the bullets being shot at me turn one.

Sorry for the interjection, and I don't have my 7th Ed. rulebook, but...


When do summoned units get to pick their psychic powers? Is the random roll to select powers done before the game starts (like it was in 6th Ed.?)

If not, when do the rules allow for summoned units to pick powers?

When they are summoned

Nerd the new, ban the new, based on one internet celebrity's video cast and stacking of a non competitive army against the new psykers. You do realize no one stopped parking lot spam, flyer spam, nor did we stop jet seer, beast star and ..... But give a little perceived power, which won't make a competitive build in tourneys, and hear the outcry. Let your TOs make back door phone calls and decide how your gonna play with the rules they think are fair. You don't like them don't go. If they loose business cause they make the wrong call, they loose...

Hopefully they have some ability to nerd bullets and wyverns too. Throw that up for discussion, lmao

 Blackmoor wrote:
You really need to play some games of 7th edition before saying that you need to cap warp charges.

I played a 1500 point game today against a 9 WC demon army with my 10 WC Grey Knight army and I struggled to get any powers off.

In 6th edition I was casting powers like crazy in both player turns. This edition I was failing to cast prescience on 5d6 twice, and struggled to cast very many powers. That meant no hammerhands all around like 6th, and even Force was taking up a big chunk of WCs.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
No offence above post but your "cheese" list sucks, this is a cheese list

16 farseers, eldrad.
53 warp charges a turn, laughs at perils, will absolutely have any power it thinks it may need.

My mate did the following, fortune, invisibility, prescience, then summoned stupid amounts of deamonettes.

That's how you create a cheese list and abuse the New system, next game he plans on putting them all on jetbikes with singing spears.

That is not a reason for capping WC, but for fixing the FOC. If you just take a detachment with an ally you are not getting that many WCs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Capping warp charges does nothing to fix invisibility, and it actually makes many invisibility focused lists more of a problem in the meta. Once warp charge and dispel dice are limited to 12 the lists that have 12 attempts at invisibility or a guaranteed single invisibility can easily get their invisibility off without having to worry about running into a list that has a huge dispel pool..

We both had invisibility and I did not think that it was that big of a deal. Whichever unit had it cast on them I just ignored. In fact I am starting to like it because it is a deathstar neutralizer.

As Blackmoor's opponent in that game, I agree that warp charge does not need a cap. I'm not sure Invis needs a ban either. I mean, I don't want to see an invisible beaststar, but Eldar are pretty much straight OP no matter what you do short of increasing the cost of everything 10-20% or so, so if I can put an invisible Soul Grinder in its way that it can't HNR past because its footprint is too big, I'm all for it.

Something does need to be done to restrict summoning Daemons to a sane level so that 500 points aren't hitting the table per turn, but one or two units in a turn is not egregious considering they only land within 12" of the model that cast them, and it isn't too hard to take out the summoners

They should consider capping the necrons Voltaic staff from assault 4 haywire, to assault 1 haywire, and after you hit, before you roll to wound, you should roll to see if the haywire effect goes off as well a 6 on a d6, and if it does your opponent cant roll a d6 and on a 6 he cancels it. If it goes off ok, then you can proceed to roll for the wound/haywire.

When necrons are knocked down, only 1 necron per unit per turn should be able to use RP. The rest are destroyed.

When you have a squad of warriors and they fire their gauss weapons at a vehicle, only 1 gauss weapon should auto glance even if the rest hit on 6's.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am incredibly doubtful that daemon summoning will at all be an earth shattering auto win tactic. Cool, they just summoned 20 daemonettes (from 2 different units). Guess what those daemonettes cant do? Assault you that turn. Plenty of time for more dakka!

I've done some calculations. Picture is attached. As you can see, it's much more difficult to cast powers in 7e than it was in 6e, where the chance on Ld10 was ~92%.

Also, after reviewing the Frontline BatRep, I calculated the chances that he would succeed on his series of Summoning rolls:
Summoning, 6d6, passes; Summoning, 6d6, passes; Summoning, 6d6, passes; Summoning, 5d6, passes; Summoning, 5d6, passes; Summoning, 5d6, passes.
The chances of that is 3.53%. This is a VERY RARE occurrence. His dice were hot, if not outright loaded. (No, I'm not accusing him of cheating.)

Beating Daemons with the ban-hammer after one single insane game isn't a very wise thing to do. As others have stated in the thread, if you're going to try and "fix" the only thing Tzeentch Daemons are good at anymore, maybe you should try and "fix" the only things that some other armies are good at: "fix" Tau shooting buffs, "fix" Eldar Bladestorm, "fix" Tyranid FMCs, "fix" Necron Flyer spam (they can now fit 10 into two CADs at 1850pts).

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I've done some calculations. Picture is attached. As you can see, it's much more difficult to cast powers in 7e than it was in 6e, where the chance on Ld10 was ~92%.

Also, after reviewing the Frontline BatRep, I calculated the chances that he would succeed on his series of Summoning rolls:
Summoning, 6d6, passes; Summoning, 6d6, passes; Summoning, 6d6, passes; Summoning, 5d6, passes; Summoning, 5d6, passes; Summoning, 5d6, passes.
The chances of that is 3.53%. This is a VERY RARE occurrence. His dice were hot, if not outright loaded. (No, I'm not accusing him of cheating.)

Beating Daemons with the ban-hammer after one single insane game isn't a very wise thing to do. As others have stated in the thread, if you're going to try and "fix" the only thing Tzeentch Daemons are good at anymore, maybe you should try and "fix" the only things that some other armies are good at: "fix" Tau shooting buffs, "fix" Eldar Bladestorm, "fix" Tyranid FMCs, "fix" Necron Flyer spam (they can now fit 10 into two CADs at 1850pts).

very good synopsis of the actual state of psychic powers in game right now.

personally just played un nerfed D factory, tabled them by t 4 quite easily, despite him making summons rolls, gaining 500pts in a 1750 before

my TAC guard list simply removed more models then he summoned, they are after all, basically guards men with a 5++ once its all said and done. He did summon a free greater deamon... but ho hum, didnt really matter, he had nothing to shoot me with the first two turns so any shooty army will just totally screw over D factory lists. Luck wasnt a factor either, aside from him getting turn one and all summons off at first, neither of us had extremely good or bad luck.

its very unfortunate that so many people are basing their opinions and encouraging bans based on one, hugely lopsided battle report that had some extremely lucky dice rolled.

(reece even admits it wasnt meant to be taken as a good match up, it was just randoms playing for fun, remember fun is the whole point! great bat rep! but people get carried away with what it means)


besides which, if you are really that worried about the rare possibility of the opponent summoning 60 t3 models a turn

then ban having that # of summoned models on the table... not every psyker. ever.

same with invis, hit that with the nerf bat, make it target able with blast and templates and its fixed and fluffy.

nerf s should be very specific and focused on the actual problem, and not take such wide broad strokes that have far reaching affects, to deal with one specific thing.

I don't think people want capped dice because of Summoning though?

I think it is so they can reliably build a list with there 1-2-3 psykers that can fairly reliably cast the powers that they want to buff there army and make it more efficient?

If you do not cap warp charges you then you can not go to a tournament thinking you can base an army around a psycic spell as you might come across a 30+ warp charge army that will shut you down.